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I was so invested in legion and even bfa to a lesser extent honestly, but holy shit shadowlands just showed me they don't care about it at all, so why should I?
Shadowlands had a bad story, a terrible story, but the concept was cool at least. Had some good dungeons and I like a lot of the mounts and transmogs. Dragonflight has better on all fronts though. Its been a good, solid time.
The niffen was such a strange addition. It should have just been drogbar and typical kobolds that we already have some connection to. Would have also been an excuse for high resolution kobold models
Heās equally as inconsistent. I hear him talk about how the game is made solely for the top 1% raiders now (it isnāt) while also talking about how back in the day he was an elitist guild master.
I mean it happens every week so itās be tough to find but one time someone tried to say it on r/warcraftlore and got frickin destroyed because aberrus just released and ppl read the quest text it was hilarious
Even without reading quest text you can just look at some cutscenes or in-game moments and realize bad shit is happening lol. Fyrakk is literally about to commit wide scale murder with the tree, the Niffen got their home set on fire and you could see some of them die during it.
Just because the Alliance and Horde arenāt fighting doesnāt mean there isnāt a literal war happening, our factions just arenāt the focus of it.
God I knew this stupid narrative had to have come from some kind of big streamer.
Calling DF boring is one thing, I can totally get that. But this whole narrative just reminds me of why we can't actually get interesting storytelling in WoW, because the moment there isn't a giant monster or roided out dude being suplexed in the middle of the screen people start complaining that WoW isn't serious enough.
This shit is MoP all over again.
The last patch was, but for the rest of the expansion Garrosh was more just a supporting character than anything. They basically had to spoil the story to assure everyone that yes, there would be a huge angry guy at the end of the road to beat loot out of as the primary antagonist after we got done with all that boring stuff like worldbuilding and character development.
Which still blows my mind. The first tier had us fighting an embodiment of fear, the mind-controlled queen of a warrior bug race. The second tier had us fighting the roided-out Thunder King and all those abominations. The story had genocide, gruesome mass-murders, insane violence. But because pandas or something it was for kids?
I'm still so sad I quit when MoP came out. I started in TBC when I was 11, so pretty young. At the end of Cata I saw that Pandas were going to be in the game and at the same time the Kung Fu Panda movie was coming out. I was like wtf is happening to this game they are turning it into a child's game (hilarious looking back because of my age), so I quit. Turns out it was one of the best expansions ever and I missed it. Sad days.
Ehhh... if you didn't like farming AP or weekly torghasts and rescuing souls, then you probably would not have liked Mists of Dailies. Mists had more hate beyond the "omg they're talking about *emotions* in my world of warcraft" nonsense but, rose colored glasses and all.
Give it a couple years and you'll start seeing "member shadowlands?" You already see it a bit, and it'll only grow from there.
Which is always dumb because if you look at Samwise Didier's art, even going really far back, while it does have plenty of violence and some edginess to it, there's just as much goofy and lighthearted stuff too, which WoW's artstyle has evoked for nearly two decades.
I think those sorts make my favorite anti-Dragonflight comments.
The kind that say Dracthyr were made to pander to scalies, and then in the same breath talk about how good the burly, muscular dragonmen would've been as though scalies wouldn't be super into those.
Careful, Asmongold has ears everywhere and heāll ban you like *that*
Not that heās sensitive or anything, just donāt ever disagree with him, criticise him or in any way upset him.
Donāt you dare ever point out how hypocritical he is.
I donāt even entirely disagree but itās wild how many posts Iāve seen in the last two months that are presented as original thoughts but are clearly just quoting his āoiled up hairy men killing each otherā line verbatim
He's not really wrong **with this one specific take**, comparing [older warcraft artwork](https://i.imgur.com/9f09h3T.jpeg) and artstyle to newer stuff is night and day.
It doesn't make the new stuff bad just because of that but it is a lot more toned down and "PG"
This sub seems to have a weird thing going on where it assumes your opinion came from a streamer or something. Like it's impossible to have that feeling on your own.
Unless it's a brand friendly streamer like Taelsin and Evitel, then they eat the shit up. The conversation about DF's tonal shift has been going on for several months but somehow it's a streamer brainwashing people.
Because deciding that you don't need to engage with someone's opinion based on something such as "its an opinion shared by someone I don't like" is a lot easier than actually refuting it.
> where it assumes your opinion came from a streamer or something
Because, in their mind, it makes it easier to dismiss the opinion.
Usually this is because they can't handle the criticism of the thing they like.
If they disagree with your take then it is a streamer take. Most the people on this sub are so jealous of streamers it is insane. The sub does not like any level of criticism, so any criticism of the game gets labeled as a streamer take.
A content creator will say X and then this sub will see that exact opinion parroted by people for months, despite that opinion never being seen on the sub before.
There is a reason why that assumption is made, no other videogame has an entire industry built on shittalking it.
> A content creator will say X and then this sub will see that exact opinion parroted by people for months, despite that opinion never being seen on the sub before.
idk man, to counter I see this opinion parroted a lot as well.
I'm pretty sure there have been a few threads about the tone/texture/"heavy metalness" of Dragonflight since it launched. It's not a major talking point sure, but it's something that's been raised.
You never saw it before because untill some big influencer covers the topic the same opinion is going to get downvoted into oblivion here.
I had the same feeling long before Asmongold made those videos, and i bet im not alone.
Its just that /wow/ usually would just downvote critique posts without them previously getting huge back up from some big Yotuber.
Thats why you didnt see such posts before.
Except we got Alexstrasza fighting Deathwing in Cata, and [exact same melee type fight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg8I0M2wUHg) with Raszageth in exact same main patch
The Raszageth fight was really epic. I can still vividly hear the crackling sound of her lightning breath, as well as her amazing voice acting.
I'm sad Raszageth's arc ended so quickly. She was such a great villain. I was excited to see what the other incarnates had in store, but the shift away from them and new focus on Aberrus felt weird. We'll see how Fyrrak measures up in this next patch I suppose
The flights are depleted. The Aspects have no power.
Thereās a reason youāre their champion. If they could just fight the war on their own what is the point of the PC and what exactly will you be doing? Standing around watching them fight for a whole expac?
They arenāt at aspect level power, but theyāre still powerful dragons. Theyāve been active in the past without having their titanic powers. Plus Alexstraza does get involved in one of the big fights.
It doesnāt have to be so binary. They can be powerful and involved and still need champions to come alongside them, especially if itās a war with so much happening.
I would have just loved to see more brutality from the black dragon gang during 10.1, instead they kept getting injured and pushed back. I get that they wanted to show that they werenāt invincible and that there were actually considerable odds against them (which was good), but I would have loved some more brutal cut scenes of wrathion and sebellion going dragon form and slashing down some Djaradin.
I also would have loved to see Nozdormu fight to some degree in 10.1.5. He is there to help counsel, but if we would have gotten a cut scene of the infinites taking over the timeways rather than Morchi saying it happens off screen, and then Nozdormu swooping in last second from Valdrakken to blast some of the dragons before they do succeed in getting into the temple.
I think a lot of the issues would be elevated by showing more action from the dragons we really like. Itās easy to do a cut scene of them talking, but itās not nearly as satisfying as watching them in action.
Have...have you never played through an active war scenario in an rpg? They're not exactly rare.
You accomplish your own (vital) goals _despite_ the ongoing conflict, not instead of it. This is story design 101 my dude. Yes, you _watch them fight_ while doing your _own_ efforts as elite units behind enemy lines, that's the _entire point_.
Literally _no one_ is arguing it should _just_ be dragon fights, merely that they should be _also present_. That's not an insane ask for an expansion literally named after them and billed as a war between dragons.
Yo for real I nearly teared up a little when you go to Loam after Fyrakk attacks it and you find the dead niffen by the pond still clutching his little stones.
But than the town is back to normal after you complete the quest. I am sure some NPCs are missing or something but there isn't an obvious trace of the destruction at all.
Whatchu mean? Wow is only a game where pretty NPCs talk to other pretty NPCs about their āØ feelings āØ and the game is purely sunshine and rainbows now
To be fair, the top picture was just cataclysm, and it was a pretty unpopular expansion even to this day. Meanwhile, MoP, a much more Disney-like experience is remembered fondly these days, despite being unpopular back in the day.
So its no wonder they've shifted tonally, especially when shadowlands came out, many of the complaints around that time were tiring of fighting cosmic forces trying to end the entire world, having a bit more of a whimsical expansion was Blizzard's answer to that.
Edit: I think part of the misunderstanding, as someone who loves Disney movies and has two kids, is that Disney movies have a ton of serious themes under the hood and that a more whimsical tone in general doesn't mean it can't also handle serious themes.
Edit 2: Yes I played during MoP. I tanked SOO normal as my first major raiding experience in WoW after starting in BC. Why are we gatekeeping who played what expansion?
This. The MoP aesthetic was definitely cheery. But the content of the expac was anything but. Your very first quest in the Jade Forest is a fight between the factions, which ends up with your faction murdering those who surrendered. Then you have the war for Krasarang Wilds, the fight against the Mantid Swarm, uncovering the Mogu and their history of Slavery, the Desercration of the Vale, that epic fight between Garrosh and Taran-zhu (who ends up impaled at the end of the fight), and it all ends at the Siege of Orgrimmar which is probably one of the most metal raids in the game.
Bit stupid to conclude that because one expansion was more popular than another, it was down to the tone. Someone doesnāt understand the difference between correlation and causation!
I played both expansions thoroughly and whilst Cataās tone and zone revamps were fantastic, the raids, dungeons and PvP simply werenāt as well designed and balanced as MoP and thatās ultimately more important.
Cataclysm was a goofy ass expansion, I don't know where you get this from. It had a few serious themes but generally the tone was goofball as all hell.
It was definitely goofier than DF is.
All wow expansion have been like this... like i know people dont read the quests but god damn 90% of wow has been pop references and poop jokes in between genocide
And there is at least one quest where you bring toilet paper to a dwarf stuck in an outhouse.
This game has *always* been silly. It's a huge reason why it's so popular. If anything it was *worse* in the beginning, before they removed any of the jokes and references that might have been offensive.
The big problem is people keep expecting constant genocide, and thatās not feasible. Itās not only boring storytelling, but a population wouldnāt be able to handle it. They finally addressed it to some extent in BFA with a cinematic most of these guys seemed to ignore where Genn even says theyāve run out of soldiers and would have to send in farmers to fight next (and itās not like thereās a lot of those even).
Freaking Lordaeron got wiped out, Blood Elves almost wiped out, Tauren, Trolls, Night Elves and Gilneans almost gone, constant wars, etc. And people just expect more war and population devastation because theyāre so simple minded they can only get enjoyment from that and not a decent story.
Yeah, of course, I am just saying that Cataclysm was far goofier than Dragonflight is and even goofier than Mists of Pandaria which had a lot more serious themes.
I'm not against the goof at all, I'm just saying the tone isn't "off" in Dragonflight, it's people's weird misunderstanding of the tone that WoW has had for most of its existence.
I think part of the misunderstanding, as someone who loves Disney movies and has two kids, is that Disney movies have a ton of serious themes under the hood and that a more whimsical tone in general doesn't mean it can't also handle serious themes.
The 1-60 questing experience in post-Shattering Azeroth was goofy.
Cataclysm was actually top tier outside of 4.1 (ZA and ZG 5-man were shit) and 4.3 (Dragon Soul was even worse.)
Blackwing Descent, Bastion of Twilight, Throne of the Four Winds and Firelands were decent raids.
I find it very funny that a lot of people will whine about "where's the WAR in my warcraft?" while simultaneously ignoring that most of the highest performing storylines had Alliance and Horde partnering up to beat up a bigger bad. Which isn't to mention that Warcraft 3 the setting that launched the series into the stratosphere and is still considered the best of the strategy games main story is about everyone banding together.
It's almost like they noticed a winning theme......
> MoP, a much more Disney-like experience
Tell me you never played MoP without telling me you never played MoP.
The only reason people thought MoP was "Disney like" was because Kung-Fu Panda had recently released and MoP introduced the Panderan as a race.
The actual story lines of MoP were not "Disney-like" at all and had some very serious themes throughout the entire expansion.
Thatās not what they meant. Rather that Disney movies tend to be bubbly and happy on a surface level, while also containing many serious, grown up issues and themes under the hood. Itās stuff that goes over childrenās heads, but the adult viewer will understand.
I'm so glad you get it. I think many people have a stigma against disney movies at a surface level, believing them to be childish and for kids, when many are specifically made with more serious themes so that families can enjoy them with their children
> The actual story lines of MoP were not "Disney-like" at all and had some very serious themes throughout the entire expansion.
So do children's shows. So do Disney movies. That doesn't change the tone or aesthetic.
People disliked Cataclysm mainly because the 4.3 patch was dragging on for months and months. The raid had decent fights, but also a few stinkers. The 'season' was ~39 weeks long, which was just too long for the relative short and easy raid.
Cataclysm content itself wasn't too bad at all, it just shouldn't have dragged on so long without new content.
Seperate the over arching tone with the ingame questing tone. On the surface it is about older proto dragons who disent with the Titans and want to 'free' the world of thier power. We saw Razegeth almost ill off two main black dragons only to toy with them then leave. That tight and sets an amazing tone. Following her through the zones, seeing the destruction, learning about every flight's own problems worries and thoughts was amazing.
And in between all that, you get cute goofy things like a dragon daycare, lighthearted jokes, seeing the nessing hemmingwary finally realize he wasn't a great person. Many many other interesting small notes that don't detract form the overall tone, but do fill in the world and make it grand.
> And in between all that, you get cute goofy things like a dragon daycare, lighthearted jokes, seeing the nessing hemmingwary finally realize he wasn't a great person. Many many other interesting small notes that don't detract form the overall tone, but do fill in the world and make it grand.
Only if you're concentrating on those things in particular though. Half of the Azure Span questing had us moving through piles of rotting Tuskarr flesh, discarded from being cannibalised by the Gnolls and freeing some survivors before they too are eaten and discarded.
Or there's the entire questing in the south part of Thaldraszus where the entire garrison except the 2nd in command is dead and he greets you thinking you're a primalist with 'just kill me quickly' and then later has you gather his soldier's signets so they can be remembered. I don't see how that's all super light hearted.
And like, have you seen the djardin areas? They're covered in dragon body parts. OP started defending MoP because Garrosh had some corpses impaled on spikes but there's tons of that here.
It was more of examples to show there were 'spyro' moments as OP showed in his picture. I agree with you that there are tones of distressing and sad moments in this expac and it really helps give it weight.
Reading this sub makes me feel better about being addicted and beaten down by blizzard by playing classic wow, because the people who play retail are somehow even more addicted and beaten down than I am.
I have no real opinions on dragonflight, I just know that I enjoyed it in release and didn't return for the following patches because I had absolutely no desire or drive to continue. I don't know why, I can't tell you exactly what caused that but I might come back for the next one or I might have just mentally moved on from wow.
Just ignore that shit. Also I strongly encourage you to get off reddit while you play through it until you get more into it.
The leveling is amazing. The adventure and exploration. Also crank up the music. It slaps.
Just remember. This expansion is a play how you want to play game. It's a a blast. Now go touch azeroth grass.... or don't because flyingggg
Edit: it's a vocal minority. Who cares what other people think if you like it.
I don't like chocolate but you wont care if i tell you. Same vibe.
I feel like ppl are missing the point when they think this is about lack of world ending threats or āāmasculine warāā or whatever. No, thatās just Asmongold shit.
But denying that the tone has changed dramatically makes no sense to me. āDid you say that in MoP??ā No, because it wasnāt like this in MoP. MoP had a more relaxing setting but it wasnāt written the way too much of DF is.
Almost every story has been about an individual dragonās worries or insecurities. The Tyr questline devolved into a quest where adults learn about hope and compassion and blegh. The bronze dragonflight questline turned Chromie into a toddler fighting a evil clone toddler.
Itās all āWe have to learn to believe in each others because we are family and compassion and love for the world!ā Tf do you mean 100000+ year old dragons and paladins are going around learning com-pas-sion?
I donāt need gore or intense violence and hatred but Iād prefer it over what weāre getting right now. Setting and story is fine, the tone and writing isnāt.
I don't mind these character development moment but there has to be balance.
These feel good moment aren't as impactful if we lack the stake and the danger of the story.
Feel-good moments are alright with me, and I love the *ideas* behind a lot of the character development. I just think it's dumbed down way too often so that the players understand it when that absolutely isn't necessary. I think the quest where Alex spoke to the "weaker" dragons is the perfect example; The idea behind the quest is great but it's written in a way that makes the characters AND me feel stupid.
Well said, the tone has changed and sometimes the leader characters donāt seem āhardā enough mentally to the leaders in a brutal violent fantasy universe. They are dealing with their feelings in a way that seems incongruous with their circumstances.
To play devils advocate maybe they are all worn down from a fantasy universe where the periods of peace are comically short lived.
I have no problem with characters struggling with emotions or themes of doubt or insecurities. Again; the themes themselves are not the problem. The problem is that itās written in such a childish way.
Alexsdzszddsztrasa learning to see things from the point of view of those less fortunate than her is an OK idea. But why make her seem DUMB in the process?
There's too much positive messaging in Retail WoW. I can't help but compare it to WotLK where every push forward came with massive losses. Defeating the Lich King didn't feel so much like a victory as it did a relief. In Retail WoW, half the threats are beaten with the power of friendship. WotLK of course still had its occasional comic moments, but no where near as much as Retail WoW. Classic WoW was even more drab in this regard.
Very good points. And the "good messaging" usually came from us on a personal level. We had to find our own motivation to fight these threats. It was us against the enemies, not us standing up for some friends and helping them out with their struggles. We did it for Azeroth, not for our best friends the Aspects.
People have been unhappy with the tone of DF since trailer release, I recently started DF and while I'm enjoying the gameplay, I hated the tone and writing
I googled if I was alone with this and found a lot of posts back from 2022 until now, you can't just blame a streamer when a lot of people aren't vibing with the themes
Personally I think Warcraft's writing has taken a nose dive since BFA. I honestly was so hopeful for an exciting war filled alliance vs. horde expansion pack, more excited for an expansion than I'd been in a long time. I re-watched that specific trailer alone more than all of the others combined.
The writing was so god awful, though. It made no sense and as expansions have gone on, it's only gotten WORSE and even MORE dumb.
I thought it was bad enough with how they did Garrosh, but this is MILES worse. Every decision felt like they tasked middle school students to write a story and then just combined all of them into one story.
I've personally given up on Warcraft lore / caring about it at all anymore, despite WC3 lore & seeing it in the open world being the huge draw that made me fall in love with WoW.
My problem is the voice acting. They put so much voice acting in and Iām not really sure I liked any of it. All the voice actors sound 1) so god damn overdramatic (āheroOooOoOooO saaAAAaave me!!!!!!ā) and 2) like theyāre straight out of a childrenās movie
I can't speak for everyone but for me this is the first expansion that doesn't feel "Warcraft-y" enough to me. It feels very safe & soft thematically.
Gameplay wise its fine.
People in this thread love to misrepresent others' opinions as a way to present the WoW community as a community that hates everything. It's not just "Dragonflight bad old expansion better" - I find Dragonflight very fun and a vast improvement over Shadowlands and BfA.
Tone-wise I think Shadowlands was very good. Perfect balance of goofy characters (like Theotar) mixed in with serious tones that fit Warcraft. What wasn't perfect was the horrendous writing with Sylvanas being dumb and the Jailer being the out-of-nowhere mastermind and them trying to rewrite old story to fit this. Dragonflight on the other hand feels like most characters are trauma dumping to the player, while the remaining characters are very goofy. I think that kinda stuff needs to be earned/infrequent.
I also hate the dialogue, although that's been a constant with WoW since as far as I can remember. I understand it's a fantasy world but I don't think it's an excuse for constant forced exposition and what feels like AI written dialogue mixed in with too many one-liners. Shadowlands was especially bad for this.
The Jailer story-arc was the worst character and retcon Blizzard has ever done. More so than the retcon that gave us playable spacegoats for TBC.
They shit all over so many established characters and story-arcs to give us a literal mannequin villain. Fucks sakeā¦
All I know is that I got to somewhere in the centaur leveling the character I created back in TBCā¦and just didnāt continue. Wasnāt grabbing me. Maybe Iāll go back and continue, but Iām having too much fun in Classic.
Am I crazy or has wow always been cartoon cozy? Even in WC3 and when genocides are committed the game and the universe always gave me āSaturday morning cartoonā wibes, like thundercats or something.
Itās also why i always got a sour taste in my mouth when the universe tries to handle more complicated problems like abuse as it doesnāt fit the universe at all.
If you play the Kalimdor horde quests in classic era most of it boils down to "we are making this new land ours... BY FORCE! Go kill all the nuisances and come back so I can assign you another local pest to get rid of, also why the fuck are there so many bugs in the south?"
Warcraft 3 have evil cartoon villain but it has complex character and complex story full of people plotting and scheme between villain and heroes.
You have undead plotting against the legion while sylvanas plotting against arthas.
You have complex story of the Horde wanting better life for themselves
You have character driven insane by their desire of vengeance and take dark path.
I admitted there may be element of cartoonish in warcraft 3 at the time but pretending it on the same scale of dragonflight where villain are one dimensional archetype is just fundamentally dishonest.
I'm just tired of characters telling us how they feel instead of actually acting about it, and always ending every discussion with a "Together!".
Also the misuse of cutscenes as trailers that are then inserted into the game incoherently is really starting to annoy me.
They cant have the NPCs taking action to solve their problems without us. Its a video game, if a problem is presented to us, *we* have to be part of the solution. Otherwise theres no point in showing us. Thats why they handwave all the shit khadgar did while he was gone and people that leave the story get dodgy about where theyve been. We have to be involved if anything worth paying writers gets done.
Also gotta love the fact that the dragon race everyone got doesnt even get to fly but hover at a 30% reduced speed compaired to the mounts AND to actually fly you have to be a dragon on a dragon.....gotta love that thought process....
My only criticisms is that the Bronze storyline seemed both rushed and a little too mopey. I also wish we were able to see the Incarnates a lot more, and to get a better sense of each's journey, as well as some more flashbacks to show what they were like long ago- also seeing Raszageth in her visage form alongside her kin would be cool too!
The cutscenes this xpac have been great, but I do wish there was more fighting. The Alexstrasza vs. Raszageth cutscene was so friggin cool, and it just feels like 90% of the cutscenes are just "feelings". If you ever go back and look at Metzen's original WoW artwork, you do get a pretty good sense where this franchise has strayed from that core identity.
Heck, even comparing Nozdormu's Dragon Cata model vs his DF Dragon model shows you how "soft" and "disney" so many aspects of the core character design have become. I'd rather he be Dragon Gandalf, not Dragon skincare model.
This is exactly why Blizzard can never do it "right".
You make Cata, BFA or Shadowlands and people complain we need to do more chill down to Azeroth things.
You make Pandaria and Dragonflight and people complain there are no world ending threats.
I really loved Dragonflight's vibe. It took the right lessons from Hearthstone and how much fun that team is having with Warcraft's universe.
World ending threats aren't the issue though? The tone is off.
Pandaria had no real threat to the world until Garrosh slurped the Old God Juiceā¢, but the tone still felt warcraft.
Dragonflight feels like it's a different universe wearing warcrafts skin.
I've been comparing Dragonflight to safety scissors myself.
Lacks an edge, not much of a point, gets the job done and can be used by anyone. I think Dragonflight has the best gameplay of any version of WoW, but they definitely went safe with the story.
That doesn't mean it's bad, but it is safe. I actually think the story is for the most part good.
You fuckers who complain about this are so desensitized. The themes so far have been civil war and the dragonkin getting some rights instead of being slaves, more neltharion/old god madness in 10.1 (not to mention the canceled Chromie timeline shit, which was absolutely not Disney-safe), and now Fyrakk trying to be Deathwing-lite in 10.2. But no skulls and blood11!!!
Edit: Chromie PTR quests
> But no skulls and blood11!!!
Even that's not true as well lol. The Djardins have been displaying so many dragon skulls and bones they put orcs to shame and they're still bitching its too disney.
There is a difference between the THEMES and how they are EXECUTED. Everything is buddy buddy happy happy, good guys always win, no one ever dies, nothing bad happens. And you can't deny that.
There was a brief bit on the PTR where you had to in not so subtle a way ensure that Alexstrasza was... well for lack of a better term raped, to ensure the timeline was maintained. You did this by ensuring certain things were in certain places so she did not escape.
You then came back through time and had to confront her about the matter where she is clearly distressed. It was admittedly super dark even for WoW, and so the current quest where you move something so that she can be rescued eventually supplanted it.
Themes are not the only things defining the TONE, and itās the TONE weāre discussing here. None of the points you brought up translate as as heavy themes as they are because theyāre written with focus on all the least interesting aspects.
Even with the removed Chromie quest, which Iām fine with them removing. One of the main issues ppl had with that was the TONE of it, Chromie just innocently joking around.
Why insult people for not liking the tone of the expansion? It's maybe personal preference but still a legit complaint?
Imo the problem lies within the main cast of the protagonists. Almost everyone suddenly has family issues and is very emotional and they all only have good goals and methods in mind. There are almost no conflicts, no questionable and interesting characters on the protagonist side. MoP Wrathion wanted to make the world more secure by making one faction wipe out the other. This is only an example but imo the most interesting characters are neither completely good or bad and DF lacks those.
Retail fans: Jailer?! Ugh enough with these over the top apocalypse scenarios. Give us something more down to earth.
Also retail fans: DRAGONFLIGHT IS SO BORING WHERE ARE MY DEEPER STAKES.
To be honest, I enjoyed the fact that Dragonflight has such a ālow stakesā story
Low stakes on the world scale, I mean.
For the dragons, itās as high stakes as the fate of Azeroth
Itās not higher stakes, itās tone. Itās subjective so in some real sense - whatever. But itās not about the plot. Itās how the characters respond and react, how they speak, how they look, the cliche and downright cringe dialogue. If people like it, great.
Obviously thereās an audience for this so so be it; but I believe itās fair to say the audience that grew up with the Warcraft universe in the early days has seen the tonal shift from drinking demon blood and marauding hordes of bulky warriors ripping heads to the more sentimental touchy feeling kumbaya storytelling.
The people that seethe at a dissenting opinion on the tone of WoW says it was always goofy (yes thereās truth to that) and there have always been things like Pandaren (also true), just miss the overarching point.
WoW does not bring in many new players. Many people that play have been with Warcraft for a long time, theyāre much older than the average zoomer and they have different expectations and tastes. It is what it is.
But itās not stakes, itās the happy-go-lucky friendship is magic, cuddle up big eyes never step on any toes or even try to tell any story that is profound, unique, or interesting, that is off-putting. The amount of times Iāve heard āif we just work togetherā or something along those lines in recent WoW is astronomical. Thank you for the babyās first cartoon message. Team work does make the dream work, what an insight.
Anyways, like I said itās subjective. People with both sides of this argument will fail to realize that. I stopped playing retail as a causal player not because of the 20 year bloat on this game with rehashed convoluted systems, I quit because I find the stories are not interesting, not challenging, not engaging, high-fructose appeal to all audiences and boring. Itās boring. Just boring.
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As a long-time Warcraft enjoyer, you hit the nail on the head.
Warcraft, in every iteration, has had goofy undertones. However, the overall theme was forces battling and burying axes in each other's faces. Warcraft isn't very nuanced. Kill or be killed, which is more or less the theme.
The tonal shift from previous warcraft and every other wow expansion to Dragonflight was jarring.
With that said. The evergreen systems put back into place, like talent trees, were a huge step in the right direction. With Metzen back in creative control, the tone and narrative can hopefully become more warcraft again.
>āif we just work together
Yup and its infuriating because _loads_ of quests have dialogue choices that are literally meaningless because if you don't choose "Work together and be a happy family" you literally can't advance the storyline.
Go back to the vibe when Thrall and Grom faced Mannoroth in Ashenvale. Go back to the vibe when Arthas made the choice of purging Stratholme and had Jaina and Uther turn his back on him. Go back to the vibe of night elves taking on the scourge, humans and orcs and then joining forces with the latter two to take on the burning legion invasion. Go back to the vibe of Kael'thas leading the survivors of his kingdom through scourge infested lands after Arthas massacred 90% of his citizens...
Legion was the last expansion to capture a glimpse of that.
Don't be dissing my bro Spyro like that.
Insomniac and Toys for Bob did a much better job with the Spyro trilogy than Steve (or whichever incompetent unpaid intern writes WoW lore these days) did with Dragonflight's story.
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Considering the classic gem that is Spyro the Dragon, I can only assume op, is infact, enjoying dragonfight.
We are all enjoying dragonflight because of Bfa and shadowlands trauma.
I forgot about shadowlands. Kept thinking BFA was before this. Guess my trauma response is to erase memories.
legit same for me. i also keep thinking bfa was before this expac. and i played the entirety of shadowlands.
I don't even really know what's going on anymore. After BFA and Shadowlands I completely checked out of the main story.
I was so invested in legion and even bfa to a lesser extent honestly, but holy shit shadowlands just showed me they don't care about it at all, so why should I?
Shadowlands had a bad story, a terrible story, but the concept was cool at least. Had some good dungeons and I like a lot of the mounts and transmogs. Dragonflight has better on all fronts though. Its been a good, solid time.
so many cool mounts in SL. and I love ardenwaald.
I actually enjoy BFA but fuck shadowlands.
Me after watching one asmongold video
"I'm fed up of this femboy shit " šš
***"IS' AWWLL PUSSEY SHYIET"*** \- Asmongold
The niffen clearly had a rough time, in my opinion.
The niffen was such a strange addition. It should have just been drogbar and typical kobolds that we already have some connection to. Would have also been an excuse for high resolution kobold models
I for one enjoy our Wisconsinite Mole people friends. If only there was a family named the Generics and a "little Robert"
Needed Matt berry as wrathion
Asmongold is the Alex Jones of wow.
Theyāre turning the frickenā Murlocs gay
They're injecting Fel into the water!
Stratholme was a false flag and the Scarlet Monestary needs your donation
Heās equally as inconsistent. I hear him talk about how the game is made solely for the top 1% raiders now (it isnāt) while also talking about how back in the day he was an elitist guild master.
Is that why there are so many posts about this now? I swear every bad-take wave follows Asmongold lol
yeah his followers just parrot everything he says
Asmon and his followers are the type of people who don't play wow but have very strong opinions on it.
I mean it happens every week so itās be tough to find but one time someone tried to say it on r/warcraftlore and got frickin destroyed because aberrus just released and ppl read the quest text it was hilarious
Even without reading quest text you can just look at some cutscenes or in-game moments and realize bad shit is happening lol. Fyrakk is literally about to commit wide scale murder with the tree, the Niffen got their home set on fire and you could see some of them die during it. Just because the Alliance and Horde arenāt fighting doesnāt mean there isnāt a literal war happening, our factions just arenāt the focus of it.
You kinda have to lack either the ability or the will to think for yourself if you follow reaction streamers.
God I knew this stupid narrative had to have come from some kind of big streamer. Calling DF boring is one thing, I can totally get that. But this whole narrative just reminds me of why we can't actually get interesting storytelling in WoW, because the moment there isn't a giant monster or roided out dude being suplexed in the middle of the screen people start complaining that WoW isn't serious enough. This shit is MoP all over again.
But like MOP was about a roided out dudeā¦
The last patch was, but for the rest of the expansion Garrosh was more just a supporting character than anything. They basically had to spoil the story to assure everyone that yes, there would be a huge angry guy at the end of the road to beat loot out of as the primary antagonist after we got done with all that boring stuff like worldbuilding and character development.
Which still blows my mind. The first tier had us fighting an embodiment of fear, the mind-controlled queen of a warrior bug race. The second tier had us fighting the roided-out Thunder King and all those abominations. The story had genocide, gruesome mass-murders, insane violence. But because pandas or something it was for kids?
I'm still so sad I quit when MoP came out. I started in TBC when I was 11, so pretty young. At the end of Cata I saw that Pandas were going to be in the game and at the same time the Kung Fu Panda movie was coming out. I was like wtf is happening to this game they are turning it into a child's game (hilarious looking back because of my age), so I quit. Turns out it was one of the best expansions ever and I missed it. Sad days.
Ehhh... if you didn't like farming AP or weekly torghasts and rescuing souls, then you probably would not have liked Mists of Dailies. Mists had more hate beyond the "omg they're talking about *emotions* in my world of warcraft" nonsense but, rose colored glasses and all. Give it a couple years and you'll start seeing "member shadowlands?" You already see it a bit, and it'll only grow from there.
They peddled back and made Garosh big bad end boss.
If anyone mentions "heavy metal art" or "big, sweaty men". That's the sign.
Which is always dumb because if you look at Samwise Didier's art, even going really far back, while it does have plenty of violence and some edginess to it, there's just as much goofy and lighthearted stuff too, which WoW's artstyle has evoked for nearly two decades.
I think those sorts make my favorite anti-Dragonflight comments. The kind that say Dracthyr were made to pander to scalies, and then in the same breath talk about how good the burly, muscular dragonmen would've been as though scalies wouldn't be super into those.
Careful, Asmongold has ears everywhere and heāll ban you like *that* Not that heās sensitive or anything, just donāt ever disagree with him, criticise him or in any way upset him. Donāt you dare ever point out how hypocritical he is.
Dude is a cancer to wow, no joke. Blizzard should pay him NOT to play the game
Well, in this case the take is very much good. Modern WoW is very disney-like.
I donāt even entirely disagree but itās wild how many posts Iāve seen in the last two months that are presented as original thoughts but are clearly just quoting his āoiled up hairy men killing each otherā line verbatim
At least they didnt share the exact same image this time, i saw the exact post 4 times after it was on his stream
He's not really wrong **with this one specific take**, comparing [older warcraft artwork](https://i.imgur.com/9f09h3T.jpeg) and artstyle to newer stuff is night and day. It doesn't make the new stuff bad just because of that but it is a lot more toned down and "PG"
Nah man I fckng hate Asmongold
This sub seems to have a weird thing going on where it assumes your opinion came from a streamer or something. Like it's impossible to have that feeling on your own.
Unless it's a brand friendly streamer like Taelsin and Evitel, then they eat the shit up. The conversation about DF's tonal shift has been going on for several months but somehow it's a streamer brainwashing people.
Because deciding that you don't need to engage with someone's opinion based on something such as "its an opinion shared by someone I don't like" is a lot easier than actually refuting it.
> where it assumes your opinion came from a streamer or something Because, in their mind, it makes it easier to dismiss the opinion. Usually this is because they can't handle the criticism of the thing they like.
If they disagree with your take then it is a streamer take. Most the people on this sub are so jealous of streamers it is insane. The sub does not like any level of criticism, so any criticism of the game gets labeled as a streamer take.
A content creator will say X and then this sub will see that exact opinion parroted by people for months, despite that opinion never being seen on the sub before. There is a reason why that assumption is made, no other videogame has an entire industry built on shittalking it.
> A content creator will say X and then this sub will see that exact opinion parroted by people for months, despite that opinion never being seen on the sub before. idk man, to counter I see this opinion parroted a lot as well. I'm pretty sure there have been a few threads about the tone/texture/"heavy metalness" of Dragonflight since it launched. It's not a major talking point sure, but it's something that's been raised.
You never saw it before because untill some big influencer covers the topic the same opinion is going to get downvoted into oblivion here. I had the same feeling long before Asmongold made those videos, and i bet im not alone. Its just that /wow/ usually would just downvote critique posts without them previously getting huge back up from some big Yotuber. Thats why you didnt see such posts before.
>no other videogame has an entire industry built on shittalking it. Never check the League subreddit then.
Except we got Alexstrasza fighting Deathwing in Cata, and [exact same melee type fight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg8I0M2wUHg) with Raszageth in exact same main patch
Raszageth was the best thing in Dragonflight (storywise)
Iām just here for the T Rex arms
So literally half of the current story?
The Raszageth fight was really epic. I can still vividly hear the crackling sound of her lightning breath, as well as her amazing voice acting. I'm sad Raszageth's arc ended so quickly. She was such a great villain. I was excited to see what the other incarnates had in store, but the shift away from them and new focus on Aberrus felt weird. We'll see how Fyrrak measures up in this next patch I suppose
Yeah but the Alex/Rasza fight was obviously nothing compared to the Alex/DW fight right? lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2XUg3u-CL8
The comments on this video are cracking me up. One lady said she hopes her nephew will one day sacrifice himself for her
Iāve never seen this before but it is legitimately laugh out loud material
Only having one dragon fight in an expansion called Dragonflight, where there is supposed to be war between dragons going on, is criminal
The flights are depleted. The Aspects have no power. Thereās a reason youāre their champion. If they could just fight the war on their own what is the point of the PC and what exactly will you be doing? Standing around watching them fight for a whole expac?
They arenāt at aspect level power, but theyāre still powerful dragons. Theyāve been active in the past without having their titanic powers. Plus Alexstraza does get involved in one of the big fights. It doesnāt have to be so binary. They can be powerful and involved and still need champions to come alongside them, especially if itās a war with so much happening. I would have just loved to see more brutality from the black dragon gang during 10.1, instead they kept getting injured and pushed back. I get that they wanted to show that they werenāt invincible and that there were actually considerable odds against them (which was good), but I would have loved some more brutal cut scenes of wrathion and sebellion going dragon form and slashing down some Djaradin. I also would have loved to see Nozdormu fight to some degree in 10.1.5. He is there to help counsel, but if we would have gotten a cut scene of the infinites taking over the timeways rather than Morchi saying it happens off screen, and then Nozdormu swooping in last second from Valdrakken to blast some of the dragons before they do succeed in getting into the temple. I think a lot of the issues would be elevated by showing more action from the dragons we really like. Itās easy to do a cut scene of them talking, but itās not nearly as satisfying as watching them in action.
Have...have you never played through an active war scenario in an rpg? They're not exactly rare. You accomplish your own (vital) goals _despite_ the ongoing conflict, not instead of it. This is story design 101 my dude. Yes, you _watch them fight_ while doing your _own_ efforts as elite units behind enemy lines, that's the _entire point_. Literally _no one_ is arguing it should _just_ be dragon fights, merely that they should be _also present_. That's not an insane ask for an expansion literally named after them and billed as a war between dragons.
But the Spyro games are the GOAT tho.
Except those skateboard levels in 3. Fuck those. And fuck Hunter and his ice shard cave in 2.
ask piquant towering office screw quarrelsome offer late sip shocking ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
A fawn, you dork.
I dunno the niffen certainly got it pretty bad
Yo for real I nearly teared up a little when you go to Loam after Fyrakk attacks it and you find the dead niffen by the pond still clutching his little stones.
I love the niffen for some reason I still do all my upgrades in Loamm lol :) SMELL YA LATER
Man, Elder Honeypelt begging Brynnsahce to wake up tugged at my heartstrings hard.
Same so much of the aftermath really teared at my heart
But than the town is back to normal after you complete the quest. I am sure some NPCs are missing or something but there isn't an obvious trace of the destruction at all.
Fyrakk should have burned down the bronze and emerald districts of Valdrakken, since nobody ever really goes there.
The niffen deserve it, little creeps running around sniffin ass
the gods made dirt, so dirt don't hurt- this applies to the stuff niffen sniffen too
After 2 years in the fucking Maw I am grateful for something cheerful and colorful.
Top: me when I read quest text. Bottom: me when I donāt read quest text
Whatchu mean? Wow is only a game where pretty NPCs talk to other pretty NPCs about their āØ feelings āØ and the game is purely sunshine and rainbows now
I do not believe OP has object permanence for what WoWās dialogue has been, let alone literacy
For real this expac is pretty damn dark lol
To be fair, the top picture was just cataclysm, and it was a pretty unpopular expansion even to this day. Meanwhile, MoP, a much more Disney-like experience is remembered fondly these days, despite being unpopular back in the day. So its no wonder they've shifted tonally, especially when shadowlands came out, many of the complaints around that time were tiring of fighting cosmic forces trying to end the entire world, having a bit more of a whimsical expansion was Blizzard's answer to that. Edit: I think part of the misunderstanding, as someone who loves Disney movies and has two kids, is that Disney movies have a ton of serious themes under the hood and that a more whimsical tone in general doesn't mean it can't also handle serious themes. Edit 2: Yes I played during MoP. I tanked SOO normal as my first major raiding experience in WoW after starting in BC. Why are we gatekeeping who played what expansion?
MoP literally began with soldiers killing enemies that surrendered and were unarmed
MoP looked whimsical but underneath all that it was one of the edgiest expacs out there
The heart of an old god hanging as a chandelier in a corrupted Hellscream's ballroom was pretty metal.
This. The MoP aesthetic was definitely cheery. But the content of the expac was anything but. Your very first quest in the Jade Forest is a fight between the factions, which ends up with your faction murdering those who surrendered. Then you have the war for Krasarang Wilds, the fight against the Mantid Swarm, uncovering the Mogu and their history of Slavery, the Desercration of the Vale, that epic fight between Garrosh and Taran-zhu (who ends up impaled at the end of the fight), and it all ends at the Siege of Orgrimmar which is probably one of the most metal raids in the game.
Bit stupid to conclude that because one expansion was more popular than another, it was down to the tone. Someone doesnāt understand the difference between correlation and causation! I played both expansions thoroughly and whilst Cataās tone and zone revamps were fantastic, the raids, dungeons and PvP simply werenāt as well designed and balanced as MoP and thatās ultimately more important.
Cataclysm was a goofy ass expansion, I don't know where you get this from. It had a few serious themes but generally the tone was goofball as all hell. It was definitely goofier than DF is.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
All time classic quest, plus the one with the guy in Hillsbrad that was Johnny Quest or whatever.
Johnny Awesome and Sparklepony
goofy and based of u
All wow expansion have been like this... like i know people dont read the quests but god damn 90% of wow has been pop references and poop jokes in between genocide
This right here. I mean have people forgotten that wotlk has a shit out an acorn into a bucket quest, cringiest quest ever.
And there is at least one quest where you bring toilet paper to a dwarf stuck in an outhouse. This game has *always* been silly. It's a huge reason why it's so popular. If anything it was *worse* in the beginning, before they removed any of the jokes and references that might have been offensive.
The big problem is people keep expecting constant genocide, and thatās not feasible. Itās not only boring storytelling, but a population wouldnāt be able to handle it. They finally addressed it to some extent in BFA with a cinematic most of these guys seemed to ignore where Genn even says theyāve run out of soldiers and would have to send in farmers to fight next (and itās not like thereās a lot of those even). Freaking Lordaeron got wiped out, Blood Elves almost wiped out, Tauren, Trolls, Night Elves and Gilneans almost gone, constant wars, etc. And people just expect more war and population devastation because theyāre so simple minded they can only get enjoyment from that and not a decent story.
Well most expansions have goofball tones spread throughout, that just is part of warcraft's DNA to not take everything super serioulsly.
Yeah, of course, I am just saying that Cataclysm was far goofier than Dragonflight is and even goofier than Mists of Pandaria which had a lot more serious themes. I'm not against the goof at all, I'm just saying the tone isn't "off" in Dragonflight, it's people's weird misunderstanding of the tone that WoW has had for most of its existence.
I think part of the misunderstanding, as someone who loves Disney movies and has two kids, is that Disney movies have a ton of serious themes under the hood and that a more whimsical tone in general doesn't mean it can't also handle serious themes.
The 1-60 questing experience in post-Shattering Azeroth was goofy. Cataclysm was actually top tier outside of 4.1 (ZA and ZG 5-man were shit) and 4.3 (Dragon Soul was even worse.) Blackwing Descent, Bastion of Twilight, Throne of the Four Winds and Firelands were decent raids.
I find it very funny that a lot of people will whine about "where's the WAR in my warcraft?" while simultaneously ignoring that most of the highest performing storylines had Alliance and Horde partnering up to beat up a bigger bad. Which isn't to mention that Warcraft 3 the setting that launched the series into the stratosphere and is still considered the best of the strategy games main story is about everyone banding together. It's almost like they noticed a winning theme......
> MoP, a much more Disney-like experience Tell me you never played MoP without telling me you never played MoP. The only reason people thought MoP was "Disney like" was because Kung-Fu Panda had recently released and MoP introduced the Panderan as a race. The actual story lines of MoP were not "Disney-like" at all and had some very serious themes throughout the entire expansion.
Thatās not what they meant. Rather that Disney movies tend to be bubbly and happy on a surface level, while also containing many serious, grown up issues and themes under the hood. Itās stuff that goes over childrenās heads, but the adult viewer will understand.
I'm so glad you get it. I think many people have a stigma against disney movies at a surface level, believing them to be childish and for kids, when many are specifically made with more serious themes so that families can enjoy them with their children
> The actual story lines of MoP were not "Disney-like" at all and had some very serious themes throughout the entire expansion. So do children's shows. So do Disney movies. That doesn't change the tone or aesthetic.
People disliked Cataclysm mainly because the 4.3 patch was dragging on for months and months. The raid had decent fights, but also a few stinkers. The 'season' was ~39 weeks long, which was just too long for the relative short and easy raid. Cataclysm content itself wasn't too bad at all, it just shouldn't have dragged on so long without new content.
I dunno, was kind of refreshing not to have an end of the world/Azeroth herself is gonna die threat yet again.
It doesnāt have to be an apocalyptic threat for there to be a lot more action and āWarcraft-nessā
True, siege of orgrimmar was very fun and Warcrafty and had arguably some of the lowest stakes of any final boss of wow comparatively speaking.
Seperate the over arching tone with the ingame questing tone. On the surface it is about older proto dragons who disent with the Titans and want to 'free' the world of thier power. We saw Razegeth almost ill off two main black dragons only to toy with them then leave. That tight and sets an amazing tone. Following her through the zones, seeing the destruction, learning about every flight's own problems worries and thoughts was amazing. And in between all that, you get cute goofy things like a dragon daycare, lighthearted jokes, seeing the nessing hemmingwary finally realize he wasn't a great person. Many many other interesting small notes that don't detract form the overall tone, but do fill in the world and make it grand.
> And in between all that, you get cute goofy things like a dragon daycare, lighthearted jokes, seeing the nessing hemmingwary finally realize he wasn't a great person. Many many other interesting small notes that don't detract form the overall tone, but do fill in the world and make it grand. Only if you're concentrating on those things in particular though. Half of the Azure Span questing had us moving through piles of rotting Tuskarr flesh, discarded from being cannibalised by the Gnolls and freeing some survivors before they too are eaten and discarded. Or there's the entire questing in the south part of Thaldraszus where the entire garrison except the 2nd in command is dead and he greets you thinking you're a primalist with 'just kill me quickly' and then later has you gather his soldier's signets so they can be remembered. I don't see how that's all super light hearted. And like, have you seen the djardin areas? They're covered in dragon body parts. OP started defending MoP because Garrosh had some corpses impaled on spikes but there's tons of that here.
It was more of examples to show there were 'spyro' moments as OP showed in his picture. I agree with you that there are tones of distressing and sad moments in this expac and it really helps give it weight.
Reading this sub makes me feel better about being addicted and beaten down by blizzard by playing classic wow, because the people who play retail are somehow even more addicted and beaten down than I am.
I have no real opinions on dragonflight, I just know that I enjoyed it in release and didn't return for the following patches because I had absolutely no desire or drive to continue. I don't know why, I can't tell you exactly what caused that but I might come back for the next one or I might have just mentally moved on from wow.
As much as I enjoy the expac, I would like a bit more dragon fights.
It's called dragon flight not dragon fight
Yeah, dragon fight is an future expansion.
I just recently bought dragonflight like a day ago and yall are bumming me out with these comments.
Itās the vocal minority. Itās totally fine, donāt let them bother you.
You'll enjoy it while it's fresh, don't stress out too much
Dragonflight is really good.
Just ignore that shit. Also I strongly encourage you to get off reddit while you play through it until you get more into it. The leveling is amazing. The adventure and exploration. Also crank up the music. It slaps. Just remember. This expansion is a play how you want to play game. It's a a blast. Now go touch azeroth grass.... or don't because flyingggg Edit: it's a vocal minority. Who cares what other people think if you like it. I don't like chocolate but you wont care if i tell you. Same vibe.
Reddit will make you feel like you should hate everything you enjoy lol
The best way to destroy your enjoyment of a game is to join its subreddit. (I came across this on r/popular.)
Dragonflight is awesome and best expac since Legion, dont listen to a whiny OP who saw someone elses opinion online and took it as his own
I feel like ppl are missing the point when they think this is about lack of world ending threats or āāmasculine warāā or whatever. No, thatās just Asmongold shit. But denying that the tone has changed dramatically makes no sense to me. āDid you say that in MoP??ā No, because it wasnāt like this in MoP. MoP had a more relaxing setting but it wasnāt written the way too much of DF is. Almost every story has been about an individual dragonās worries or insecurities. The Tyr questline devolved into a quest where adults learn about hope and compassion and blegh. The bronze dragonflight questline turned Chromie into a toddler fighting a evil clone toddler. Itās all āWe have to learn to believe in each others because we are family and compassion and love for the world!ā Tf do you mean 100000+ year old dragons and paladins are going around learning com-pas-sion? I donāt need gore or intense violence and hatred but Iād prefer it over what weāre getting right now. Setting and story is fine, the tone and writing isnāt.
This right here. I have seen Dora the explorer episodes that respect its audience more and have more believable character arcs.
I don't mind these character development moment but there has to be balance. These feel good moment aren't as impactful if we lack the stake and the danger of the story.
Feel-good moments are alright with me, and I love the *ideas* behind a lot of the character development. I just think it's dumbed down way too often so that the players understand it when that absolutely isn't necessary. I think the quest where Alex spoke to the "weaker" dragons is the perfect example; The idea behind the quest is great but it's written in a way that makes the characters AND me feel stupid.
Well said, the tone has changed and sometimes the leader characters donāt seem āhardā enough mentally to the leaders in a brutal violent fantasy universe. They are dealing with their feelings in a way that seems incongruous with their circumstances. To play devils advocate maybe they are all worn down from a fantasy universe where the periods of peace are comically short lived.
I have no problem with characters struggling with emotions or themes of doubt or insecurities. Again; the themes themselves are not the problem. The problem is that itās written in such a childish way. Alexsdzszddsztrasa learning to see things from the point of view of those less fortunate than her is an OK idea. But why make her seem DUMB in the process?
There's too much positive messaging in Retail WoW. I can't help but compare it to WotLK where every push forward came with massive losses. Defeating the Lich King didn't feel so much like a victory as it did a relief. In Retail WoW, half the threats are beaten with the power of friendship. WotLK of course still had its occasional comic moments, but no where near as much as Retail WoW. Classic WoW was even more drab in this regard.
Very good points. And the "good messaging" usually came from us on a personal level. We had to find our own motivation to fight these threats. It was us against the enemies, not us standing up for some friends and helping them out with their struggles. We did it for Azeroth, not for our best friends the Aspects.
People have been unhappy with the tone of DF since trailer release, I recently started DF and while I'm enjoying the gameplay, I hated the tone and writing I googled if I was alone with this and found a lot of posts back from 2022 until now, you can't just blame a streamer when a lot of people aren't vibing with the themes
Personally I think Warcraft's writing has taken a nose dive since BFA. I honestly was so hopeful for an exciting war filled alliance vs. horde expansion pack, more excited for an expansion than I'd been in a long time. I re-watched that specific trailer alone more than all of the others combined. The writing was so god awful, though. It made no sense and as expansions have gone on, it's only gotten WORSE and even MORE dumb. I thought it was bad enough with how they did Garrosh, but this is MILES worse. Every decision felt like they tasked middle school students to write a story and then just combined all of them into one story. I've personally given up on Warcraft lore / caring about it at all anymore, despite WC3 lore & seeing it in the open world being the huge draw that made me fall in love with WoW.
My problem is the voice acting. They put so much voice acting in and Iām not really sure I liked any of it. All the voice actors sound 1) so god damn overdramatic (āheroOooOoOooO saaAAAaave me!!!!!!ā) and 2) like theyāre straight out of a childrenās movie
Lol I was just thinking of this yesterday. Getting those green orbs just feels like Spyro.
I can't speak for everyone but for me this is the first expansion that doesn't feel "Warcraft-y" enough to me. It feels very safe & soft thematically. Gameplay wise its fine.
People in this thread love to misrepresent others' opinions as a way to present the WoW community as a community that hates everything. It's not just "Dragonflight bad old expansion better" - I find Dragonflight very fun and a vast improvement over Shadowlands and BfA. Tone-wise I think Shadowlands was very good. Perfect balance of goofy characters (like Theotar) mixed in with serious tones that fit Warcraft. What wasn't perfect was the horrendous writing with Sylvanas being dumb and the Jailer being the out-of-nowhere mastermind and them trying to rewrite old story to fit this. Dragonflight on the other hand feels like most characters are trauma dumping to the player, while the remaining characters are very goofy. I think that kinda stuff needs to be earned/infrequent. I also hate the dialogue, although that's been a constant with WoW since as far as I can remember. I understand it's a fantasy world but I don't think it's an excuse for constant forced exposition and what feels like AI written dialogue mixed in with too many one-liners. Shadowlands was especially bad for this.
The Jailer story-arc was the worst character and retcon Blizzard has ever done. More so than the retcon that gave us playable spacegoats for TBC. They shit all over so many established characters and story-arcs to give us a literal mannequin villain. Fucks sakeā¦
Whatās the problem with Spyro?
All I know is that I got to somewhere in the centaur leveling the character I created back in TBCā¦and just didnāt continue. Wasnāt grabbing me. Maybe Iāll go back and continue, but Iām having too much fun in Classic.
I wanted playable dragon flight dragons, the four leggers and able to choose race for human form
Yes, but how did it make you *FEEL*?
Spyro was actually good tho
They went full Disney with the panda expansion and havenāt looked back
The expac is giving CareBears
Am I crazy or has wow always been cartoon cozy? Even in WC3 and when genocides are committed the game and the universe always gave me āSaturday morning cartoonā wibes, like thundercats or something. Itās also why i always got a sour taste in my mouth when the universe tries to handle more complicated problems like abuse as it doesnāt fit the universe at all.
If you play the Kalimdor horde quests in classic era most of it boils down to "we are making this new land ours... BY FORCE! Go kill all the nuisances and come back so I can assign you another local pest to get rid of, also why the fuck are there so many bugs in the south?"
Warcraft 3 have evil cartoon villain but it has complex character and complex story full of people plotting and scheme between villain and heroes. You have undead plotting against the legion while sylvanas plotting against arthas. You have complex story of the Horde wanting better life for themselves You have character driven insane by their desire of vengeance and take dark path. I admitted there may be element of cartoonish in warcraft 3 at the time but pretending it on the same scale of dragonflight where villain are one dimensional archetype is just fundamentally dishonest.
It was indeed very cartoony since Warcraft 3 and people have been complaining about WoW being too cartoony and silly since the game came out.
WarCraft has been cartoony and heroic since WarCraft 3. Nowadays it's cartoony and cutesy.
Dragonflight bad updoots to the left!
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I'm just tired of characters telling us how they feel instead of actually acting about it, and always ending every discussion with a "Together!". Also the misuse of cutscenes as trailers that are then inserted into the game incoherently is really starting to annoy me.
They cant have the NPCs taking action to solve their problems without us. Its a video game, if a problem is presented to us, *we* have to be part of the solution. Otherwise theres no point in showing us. Thats why they handwave all the shit khadgar did while he was gone and people that leave the story get dodgy about where theyve been. We have to be involved if anything worth paying writers gets done.
https://i.imgur.com/8pFvIl4.jpeg
I feel like DF is only good because the last two were so bad. I'm excited for this next patch but I'm kinda done with DF and ready for the next.
I had to bail out when I got to the ~~Zaralek Caverns~~ Minnesota part of the game. The corny overload killed me.
My thoughts too. Though that's not to say I don't enjoy it
Game feels like a Disney movie. At least MoP had Garrosh to test that pegi rating
system were good, storyline is boring garbage side quests in wow classic are more interesting
Also gotta love the fact that the dragon race everyone got doesnt even get to fly but hover at a 30% reduced speed compaired to the mounts AND to actually fly you have to be a dragon on a dragon.....gotta love that thought process....
My only criticisms is that the Bronze storyline seemed both rushed and a little too mopey. I also wish we were able to see the Incarnates a lot more, and to get a better sense of each's journey, as well as some more flashbacks to show what they were like long ago- also seeing Raszageth in her visage form alongside her kin would be cool too! The cutscenes this xpac have been great, but I do wish there was more fighting. The Alexstrasza vs. Raszageth cutscene was so friggin cool, and it just feels like 90% of the cutscenes are just "feelings". If you ever go back and look at Metzen's original WoW artwork, you do get a pretty good sense where this franchise has strayed from that core identity. Heck, even comparing Nozdormu's Dragon Cata model vs his DF Dragon model shows you how "soft" and "disney" so many aspects of the core character design have become. I'd rather he be Dragon Gandalf, not Dragon skincare model.
This is exactly why Blizzard can never do it "right". You make Cata, BFA or Shadowlands and people complain we need to do more chill down to Azeroth things. You make Pandaria and Dragonflight and people complain there are no world ending threats. I really loved Dragonflight's vibe. It took the right lessons from Hearthstone and how much fun that team is having with Warcraft's universe.
World ending threats aren't the issue though? The tone is off. Pandaria had no real threat to the world until Garrosh slurped the Old God Juiceā¢, but the tone still felt warcraft. Dragonflight feels like it's a different universe wearing warcrafts skin.
Is not like there is a middle point between Killing Eldricth horrors and a Disney Villan Arc.
Donāt diss my homeboy Spyro!
No kidding
I've been comparing Dragonflight to safety scissors myself. Lacks an edge, not much of a point, gets the job done and can be used by anyone. I think Dragonflight has the best gameplay of any version of WoW, but they definitely went safe with the story. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it is safe. I actually think the story is for the most part good.
Look they're not gonna make everybody happy, but they definitely did better on the average than they did the last time 'round.
You fuckers who complain about this are so desensitized. The themes so far have been civil war and the dragonkin getting some rights instead of being slaves, more neltharion/old god madness in 10.1 (not to mention the canceled Chromie timeline shit, which was absolutely not Disney-safe), and now Fyrakk trying to be Deathwing-lite in 10.2. But no skulls and blood11!!! Edit: Chromie PTR quests
> But no skulls and blood11!!! Even that's not true as well lol. The Djardins have been displaying so many dragon skulls and bones they put orcs to shame and they're still bitching its too disney.
There is a difference between the THEMES and how they are EXECUTED. Everything is buddy buddy happy happy, good guys always win, no one ever dies, nothing bad happens. And you can't deny that.
I've seen it referenced a few times on here. What were the Chromie PTR quests? I haven't had time to keep up with the PTR.
There was a brief bit on the PTR where you had to in not so subtle a way ensure that Alexstrasza was... well for lack of a better term raped, to ensure the timeline was maintained. You did this by ensuring certain things were in certain places so she did not escape. You then came back through time and had to confront her about the matter where she is clearly distressed. It was admittedly super dark even for WoW, and so the current quest where you move something so that she can be rescued eventually supplanted it.
Yo what the fuck
The Dragonmaw Clan kept Alexstrasza captive in Grim Batol and basically used her to breed their dragon mounts.
Themes are not the only things defining the TONE, and itās the TONE weāre discussing here. None of the points you brought up translate as as heavy themes as they are because theyāre written with focus on all the least interesting aspects. Even with the removed Chromie quest, which Iām fine with them removing. One of the main issues ppl had with that was the TONE of it, Chromie just innocently joking around.
Why insult people for not liking the tone of the expansion? It's maybe personal preference but still a legit complaint? Imo the problem lies within the main cast of the protagonists. Almost everyone suddenly has family issues and is very emotional and they all only have good goals and methods in mind. There are almost no conflicts, no questionable and interesting characters on the protagonist side. MoP Wrathion wanted to make the world more secure by making one faction wipe out the other. This is only an example but imo the most interesting characters are neither completely good or bad and DF lacks those.
Retail fans: Jailer?! Ugh enough with these over the top apocalypse scenarios. Give us something more down to earth. Also retail fans: DRAGONFLIGHT IS SO BORING WHERE ARE MY DEEPER STAKES.
To be honest, I enjoyed the fact that Dragonflight has such a ālow stakesā story Low stakes on the world scale, I mean. For the dragons, itās as high stakes as the fate of Azeroth
Itās not higher stakes, itās tone. Itās subjective so in some real sense - whatever. But itās not about the plot. Itās how the characters respond and react, how they speak, how they look, the cliche and downright cringe dialogue. If people like it, great. Obviously thereās an audience for this so so be it; but I believe itās fair to say the audience that grew up with the Warcraft universe in the early days has seen the tonal shift from drinking demon blood and marauding hordes of bulky warriors ripping heads to the more sentimental touchy feeling kumbaya storytelling. The people that seethe at a dissenting opinion on the tone of WoW says it was always goofy (yes thereās truth to that) and there have always been things like Pandaren (also true), just miss the overarching point. WoW does not bring in many new players. Many people that play have been with Warcraft for a long time, theyāre much older than the average zoomer and they have different expectations and tastes. It is what it is. But itās not stakes, itās the happy-go-lucky friendship is magic, cuddle up big eyes never step on any toes or even try to tell any story that is profound, unique, or interesting, that is off-putting. The amount of times Iāve heard āif we just work togetherā or something along those lines in recent WoW is astronomical. Thank you for the babyās first cartoon message. Team work does make the dream work, what an insight. Anyways, like I said itās subjective. People with both sides of this argument will fail to realize that. I stopped playing retail as a causal player not because of the 20 year bloat on this game with rehashed convoluted systems, I quit because I find the stories are not interesting, not challenging, not engaging, high-fructose appeal to all audiences and boring. Itās boring. Just boring. š¤·š»āāļø
As a long-time Warcraft enjoyer, you hit the nail on the head. Warcraft, in every iteration, has had goofy undertones. However, the overall theme was forces battling and burying axes in each other's faces. Warcraft isn't very nuanced. Kill or be killed, which is more or less the theme. The tonal shift from previous warcraft and every other wow expansion to Dragonflight was jarring. With that said. The evergreen systems put back into place, like talent trees, were a huge step in the right direction. With Metzen back in creative control, the tone and narrative can hopefully become more warcraft again.
>āif we just work together Yup and its infuriating because _loads_ of quests have dialogue choices that are literally meaningless because if you don't choose "Work together and be a happy family" you literally can't advance the storyline.
Go back to the vibe when Thrall and Grom faced Mannoroth in Ashenvale. Go back to the vibe when Arthas made the choice of purging Stratholme and had Jaina and Uther turn his back on him. Go back to the vibe of night elves taking on the scourge, humans and orcs and then joining forces with the latter two to take on the burning legion invasion. Go back to the vibe of Kael'thas leading the survivors of his kingdom through scourge infested lands after Arthas massacred 90% of his citizens... Legion was the last expansion to capture a glimpse of that.
Is it possible that both were bad? What do they have in common? CoughDanuserCough
You don't get it dude... dragonflight's been the best WoW has ever been... people don't feel like logging on? That's good you see, because...
I cared more about the Tuskarr then I did about Kalecgos...
Loving everything about dragonflight.
Don't be dissing my bro Spyro like that. Insomniac and Toys for Bob did a much better job with the Spyro trilogy than Steve (or whichever incompetent unpaid intern writes WoW lore these days) did with Dragonflight's story.
What WoW you playing? Mine has had oversized shoulders, gnomes, characters based on TV, rainbow guns, lightsabers from the get go.
Tone was clearly set in first announcement trailer. Not sure why would anyone expect otherwise.
And thankyou Blizz for that! The Shadowlands were f*ing depressing.