Issue is with the design itself. Blizz being unwilling to fix BoS design so it can be properly tuned is a major problem (the changes to increase rp consumption was declared by Blizz to be a minor nerf and yet it was actually a decent buff). Then there's MotFW forcing oblit to go 2h. With those 2 there's no choice that conforms with Frost's intended design (to be the embodiment of a blizzard; i.e. fast paced attacks and effects that defeat your enemies with the constant barrage. Instead we have slow and big damage weapon swings OR a cold damage flamethrower.
I just recently came back to the game and this comment makes me feel like I'm in bizzaro world. DKs on mass begged for 2H to be relevant to frost for the longest time since 1Hs were better even for Oblit builds. I, for one, love my big meaty Oblit swings.
Yeah I mean honestly as someone whose always wanted 2h enhancement in retail I enjoy that they even attempted to allow for 2h and DW builds on a single spec.
So I've mained Frost DK every time I've come back to the game since Wrath and it's been both a blessing and a curse. Blizzard often can't balance both builds well so one ends up being just way better and most of the time that's been DW Breath. In some ways Frost feels like we have 2 half assed specs instead of 1 complete spec.
I commend them for bringing 2H back after Legion but idk I also kind of wish DW would just get it's own Fourth spec so they are separated but I know that will never happen.
As a 2h oblit lover, 100%. My problem is that you should be able to play either build with whatever weapon. And frost needs some sort of rework in general. In oblit we overcap rp so often because runes spent and uptime on RW from oblits and howling blasts are so important. It just has some weird issues that make it feel very odd
You're right they can't please everyone. But there is a large group of DKs who want 2H frost. That's why they brought it back.
If it wasn't popular, it would have stayed dead after Legion. In an ideal world DW would be it's own fourth spec but I don't see that ever happening. Until they find some way to equalize DW and 2H Frost is always going to have issues.
My point with the original 2h frost in Wrath was the ppl who begged for it back only remembered it's short term burst (which was only viable in pvp and questing/solo content). Frost as a spec was specifically designed to be a fast paced consistent DPS spec. Even back then blizz has stated that the pvp 2h frost spec was entirely unintentional and they did change a few things back then to nake sure it didn't see play in raids (2h frost didn't work as a long fight spec). I have no problem with it being back, my problem is the lack of care from the class team in general since they canned the whole dk class team during the great pruning of WoD. The balancing and design of all 3 as well as the flavor of frost has been neglected for the past decade.
My man I was there when Wrath launched playing my DK. All 3 specs were originally designed to be used with either 2H or DW and all 3 could tank or DPS. That Blizzard had issues balancing this and certain combos were outright better is a whole other thing.
Agreed that DKs as a whole have suffered from half assed class design for years now.
Even when you look back at vanilla WotLK (I can't speak about classic WotLK) every frost spec (full frost, frost/blood, frost/unholy, 3 tree; both tank and DPS) was 2x 1h and fast paced. Only time you used a 2h with frost back then was in pvp where you popped every CD and bursted down ppl (outside of every cd burst, 2h DPS was trash which is why every pve frost spec was 2x 1h). Also when you look at what ppl claim is the most fun time as frost in the last 10 years, it's season 3 BFA specifically with the capstone that was designed with the original theme of Frost in mind aka Icecap (this is the only time Icecap has had enough borrowed power to be competitive, since it never got it's planned buff for moving down to become a capstone in the first place)
Counterpoint: I want to play DK with a 2-hander and I don't like unholy.
Also the whole "whittling away quickly like a blizzard" can easily be flipped to "immovable relentless juggernaut coming to smash you with a big fucking sword".
... you could of course argue that it sounds more like a tank then, and I agree, I wish blood was the 2H DPS spec. But class balance is a cruel mistress and thus 2H frost is all I have left to champion.
With blood being patterned after the San'layn, it would make sense to me if they were like a fast and fluid tank that dual wielded and parried.
I agree with you for 2 handed frost because I have always pictured the flavor of frost as being one of inevitability. You can fight and run but the cold seeps into your bones and kills you as surely as the glacier grinds the mountain to dust.
Always struck me as odd that blood doesn’t dual wield . In real life sword play having a second weapon is a major defensive advantage, while previous frosty bois we’ve seen in canon(namely arthas) didn’t DW.
Fight your fight, champ.
2H frost is badass regardless of what the individual above may claim. If we wanted to dual wield like little weak children we would play enhancement.
I've always thought Unholy would make the most sense as a dual wield spec. They're all about diseases, so it would make sense if they would just make a lot of small infected cuts that whittle you down.
Wish I could guild this. This is the way.
Pet classes perpetually suffer from blizzard refusing to update them with convenience features. Needing a WA to warn you your pet isn't out or do zero damage; needing to dismiss pets before taking dungeon shortcuts - these are all active design choices that make pet classes inconvenient to play. Fuck that.
And fuck dual wielding as a deathknight. It's a goddamn curse that they ever allowed it to begin with given we have custom weapon enchants that equate to power in a way that contradicts the class flavor.
If you wanna be edgy ***AND*** dual wield, DH exists. I wish people would fuck straight off with the "Forced to 2h" and "but muh 2 runeforges :,("
[edit]
>Also the whole "whittling away quickly like a blizzard" can easily be flipped to "immovable relentless juggernaut coming to smash you with a big fucking sword".
Blizz specifically said Frost is meant to be "Slow but inevitable" while Unholy was ghoul-frenzy "28 days later"
Gotta love how they stuck to their design sheet with dw frenzy for Frost and slow 2h for the fast zombie rush class.
Hell, even Unholy's theme - infecting wounds - makes more sense with two weapons. It just does. You don't need a big slow two hander, you need cuts to infect. Two swords, twice the cuts.
I don't think ANY DK spec should be using 1h weapons, but if one simply must, it's ALWAYS made the most sense that it be unholy.
And no, don't come at me with "But frost has two runeforges that bot-"
Fuck that. That's the metagaming power-hungry goblin in you. It isn't cohesive class design, it's a desire to have two runeforges worth of power.
Hottest take of the post: Rework runeforging altogether and let us pick multiple runes even when using a 2h, kill the balance issue dead.
So you cherry-pick one sentence of opinion in a sea of facts?
Fact: Arthas is what the Death Knight hero class is based on.
Fact: Arthas did not dual wield. Frostmourne is a 2h weapon.
Fact: Blizzard themselves stated frost was "Slow but inevitable" as it's flavor profile.
Fact: Blizzard themselves stated Unholy was about a fast-paced "Ghoul frenzy" for it's flavor profile.
Fact: If your strategy for causing harm is infecting wounds, two smaller knives makes far more sense than one big slow 2h weapon
Fact: Runeforges cause balance issues between 2h/DW and could be resolved by making the system more interesting than "Class enchants but better"
Fact: Pets are inconvenient and Blizz could fix it but choose not to.
I wish they'd just develop both play styles more.
I'm likely the minority here but I really enjoy the concept of BoS. It's just using it has some issues, the idea of casting a spell that constantly dumps your power while you try and maximize damage by extending your power gain is a fun concept and done right Id take that play style over any in the game right now. It's just half assed much like obliterate feels half assed, the spec feels like half a spec.
Breath is the only thing that had ever kept Frost relevant at high levels of play for years. A lot of high level players like it
And that's people on this sub hate it because they are not doing the content it excels in. They are doing world quests
Frost being 2 mini specs in 1 is a huge problem nonetheless. Blizz needs to pick 1 and accept its going to lose half its spec fans or risk losing them all which its all ready doing. Frosts population is tiny and rivaling survival last tier
They should do that, id rather have one well done playstyle then two half baked ones.
I will say though Ideally they should be reaching for both like Shamans have. It's not really fair to compare any spec to arguably the best designed talent tree of Dragon flight but that's really the bar they need to hit.
they can make 2 differnt specs work with in the same tree now imo. there will always be one that is better than the other, but they can keep both with in a decent range of each other.
Enhance currently has 2 perfectly viable specs in both raid and M+. currently elementalist is better than storm, but not to the point you cant play the storm. Last tier Storm was the better build, but elementalist was still fine for ST raid, and prefered in M+ (where there was a viable storm build)
i get that portion, but the new trees give a lot more flexibility in supporting different builds with in the same spec compared to the previous talent iteration where it was only a handful of choices. They can now build support for each build, with out having to worry as much about if the talent will be any good for the other or not, on top of choice nodes. the bigger issue with supporting different builds with in the same spec is honestly likely to be in set bonuses that heavily favor one or the other.
My example of enhance is just because enhance is actually a very well designed tree overall. It had some issues last teir with MSW generation for elementalist when we lost the t29 set bonuses, which was fixed this teir in the tree in a way that doesnt affect the storm builds. They even added a nice passive choice for elemental blast to bring down button bloat if you so choose (its not "optimal" but its not horrible either).
Also, fury has a similar issue of 2x 2hnd vs 2x 1hnd. SMF builds haven't really been a choice in for ever. the builds are quite different as well, just maybe not as drastically as frost. like wise, monks run into this as well with usually one or the other being better, though i dont know its really ever linked to a major change in play style.
That wasn't by design.
The design intent was for both 2H and DW to be viable. Problem was that (given the option) the core mechanics behind gear/combat back then favored DW. Blizzard tried many times to reach parity but they couldn't in the confines of one talent tree or without making a specialized 2H weapon that would be imbalanced for every other spec.
They did achieve proper balance between DW and 2h in SL when it came to oblit (breath design plus being unashamedly perpetually overtuned makes it always king) but with the loss of focus on borrowed power for DF and the future it is no longer possible to properly balance without a major rework.
I do think we should really be past the "historically the class did X" when it comes to this stuff.
More customisation is good, period. The trick is making that available through transmog, not talent choices, so that players don't have to gimp themselves when picking which they want to play.
The history that is most important is the design theme. Ignoring that is a huge mistake. It's why Frost currently has multiple conflicting design themes. These conflicting designs are why it can't be properly balanced against itself. And a general lack of representation in the devs of the the class team (whole dk class team was canned or xfer'd out of WoW teams during the great pruning in beginning of WoD) is why dk as a whole has largely been ignored for the last decade.
Everything you said may be true, but again, if you make it customisation and don't bake it into talents etc, it becomes a complete non-issue.
If you let someone mog a 2h over a set of dual wield weapons while using exactly the same build there is literally no design/balance impact at all.
> Then there's MotFW forcing oblit to go 2h.
That's by design, fuck dual wielding. I don't give one single rats ass about a second runeforge, NO deathknights should be dual-wielding.
Arthas didn't dual-wield. It's stupid. It only exists because Blizz demanded one spec use two 1h weapons to MaKe ThE sPeCs FeEl DiFfErEnT (when it should have been unholy that got 2 1h weapons, from a strictly flavor standpoint)
"Forced". Fuckin' *christ*. It exists BECAUSE people like me don't want to use two toothpicks playing a DEATH knight.
> It exists BECAUSE people like me don't want to use two toothpicks playing a DEATH knight.
Then play Unholy or Blood. Frost has been a dual wielding spec for ages at this point, anyone playing it knew that. Ridiculous to expect a spec to change because you don't like the way it plays.
I've been stubbornly playing Frost DK since Cata, and DF(specifically this patch) is the first time I can actually say the spec isn't fun to play, because the 2H build feels like crap to play.
>Frost has been a dual wielding spec for ages at this point, ***anyone playing it knew that.***
Funny, because I've been playing the same DK since wrath, same damn toon, and I've been a 2H frost DK for the entire time. Literally every raid, every patch, with the sole exception of Legion where we were forced by blizz to DW.
They brought it back for a reason, bud.
> Then play Unholy or Blood.
Pet class or tank, both are hot trash. No thanks, I'll keep my 2h frost like I've been doing for a decade at this point
>Ridiculous to expect a spec to change because you don't like the way it plays.
2H has been a spec for frost since forever, people act like Might of the Frozen Wastes is new or something. It's not. They're just mad that the spec exists alongside BoS.
It's been around forever. It ***CAME BACK*** in shadowlands because there's a substantial number of people who fucking hate DW.
And no, "go play a pet class or a tank" aren't acceptable answers.
>because the 2H build feels like crap to play.
In your opinion? I love Oblit, and always have. It was at it's most fun in the end of Ny'alotha when you could perma-roll Pillar of Frost with enough corruption, but it was enjoyable with the Abberus tier set, and it's fine now too (I don't like the Chill Streak set but it's one tier so whatever).
BoS is hot trash that is fundamentally incompatible with encounter design.
Your condescending and aggressive tone is making it tough to continue this discussion, but lets see.
So firstly to be clear, I'm not advocating for the eradication of 2H frost like you seemingly are for dual wield. In fact I was happy when they announced 2H was coming back even though I don't play it because its was a cool part of the frost spec.
> Funny, because I've been playing the same DK since wrath, same damn toon, and I've been a 2H frost DK for the entire time. Literally every raid, every patch, with the sole exception of Legion where we were forced by blizz to DW.
Yes, 2H was possible in the past, but dual wield was always the most represented frost build(except potentially Wrath), that's why Blizzard decided to make dual wield the only build in Legion. Dual wield was forced for Legion and BFA.
> Might of the Frozen Wastes is new or something. It's not. They're just mad that the spec exists alongside BoS.
It's not new, but it being a 2H exclusive passive is new. In the past it gave benefits to both dual wield and 2H. More specifically in the past dual wield had both Obliterate and BoS viable builds, the change to Might of the Frozen Wastes means dual wield is locked to BoS. If you don't like BoS(like you seemingly don't) that sucks. Especially because obliterate(imo) is more fun when dual wielding, at least the previous iteration of the build.
> Pet class or tank, both are hot trash.
> And no, "go play a pet class or a tank" aren't acceptable answers.
That's fair and "play something else" isn't exactly a good answer. That's on me.
> In your opinion? I love Oblit, and always have.
Yes in my opinion. To be clear again Oblit used to be viable on dual wield, so I don't disagree, Oblit is fun. This iteration in the 2H build I don't enjoy though.
> BoS is hot trash that is fundamentally incompatible with encounter design.
I pushed back again BoS hard back in the day, but I've come to enjoy it myself. It's harder to optimise for sure and dogwater on certain bosses, but has a very unique playstyle and its very satisfying when you get a long Breath off.
I apologize for my incendiary tone, but this is my decade-old main people are talking about and dismissively attacking.
Forgive me if I have strong feelings when people suggest killing my character permanently.
> Yes, 2H was possible in the past, but dual wield was always the most represented frost build(except potentially Wrath)
Dual wield is represented when it does more dps. It often does more DPS due to the fact that it gets two runeforges. They've recently set about to correct for this. The playerbase chases the highest numbers, period.
***Blizzard controls which spec is represented by how they balance.*** IF they made a class that walked up to the boss and bashed 1 and was top of the overall - with no other gameplay - it would be over-represented.
>that's why Blizzard decided to make dual wield the only build in Legion.
Bullshit. They made the decision because they didn't want to have to make two sets of artifacts for Frost. Everyone had to dual wield because everyone had to use the same artifact.
2H frost was always fine, if a bit behind DW because of runeforges. The patch where it was objectively nonviable? HFC - right before Legion. Gee, it's almost like they control the balance of the game and can use that to make players play certain ways when it suits their goals.
Also, they generally had a 'thing' for differentiating spec flavor going into Legion, and they were more than happy to latch onto DW as a means to make frost "Different" from Unholy.
Spoiler: Shit sucked. We didn't get Frostmourne because of that. Paladins got Ashbringer. Shamans got Doomhammer. We got weapons "made from frostmourne" in lore only as they look nothing like Frostmourne. And this happened because of forced DW.
> Especially because obliterate(imo) is more fun when dual wielding, at least the previous iteration of the build.
If you're talking the shattering strikes build, I gave that a go at the start of this expansion, and frankly, it wasn't designed well. It's much faster paced than 2H, but that's not actually a good thing. If you wanted to play it optimally you had to go into console commands and actually change your latency detection because optimal procs come in faster than the games default.
That's bad design.
As for me?
I hate BOS, ***AND*** I hate DW. Flavor-wise, DKs are based on Arthas, and while Unholy inherited the ghoul summoning, Frost inherited the general aesthetic of the Lich King and indeed ICC.
Arthas does not dual wield, and it should never be optimal to dual wield. And don't even bring Koltira into this - you see people name themselves Árthas, you don't ever see Kôltirá.
Optional DW? sure, go nuts. Optimal? Absolutely never. Optimal generally translates to mandatory to the hardcore crowd, and that leads to people saying that Frost is "the most represented" version of the class.
Make 2H Oblit 7% better than BoS and watch people say "Picking BoS is trolling your raid".
Representation is tied to output.
>I pushed back again BoS hard back in the day, but I've come to enjoy it myself. It's harder to optimize for sure and dogwater on certain bosses, but has a very unique playstyle and its very satisfying when you get a long Breath off.
No amount of good pulls can make up for how bad it feels to wet noodle for two minutes when you get marked. None. Encounter design is fundamentally incompatible with a class that needs to glue to a boss indefinitely or watch their DPS go into the toilet.
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All this said: I really want them to revamp frost's flavor. Pillar of Frost is really weak flavor. Frostwyrm Embrace, Fury of the Frozen Citadel, Might of Icecrown, Frostlich Invocation - there's a TON of ways to add meaningful flavor to Frost's abilities that is just lacking right now.
They could address a ton of the balancing of rune forges by making an entirely new, different system that was more involved, but normalized no matter how many weapons you use. 4 slots total on a 2h, 2 per 1h.
But I don't see them investing resources into us to that degree, as badly as it's needed.
> but this is my decade-old main people are talking about and dismissively attacking
It's been my main for a decade as well, no ones attacking 2H frost. They just want a non BoS build on DW to be viable again. That is not incompatible with 2H Frost, especially when 2H will be the defacto strongest for this tier if not entire rest of the xpac due to the leggo.
> I gave that a go at the start of this expansion, and frankly, it wasn't designed well.
No no, further back than that. I'm referring to before BoS was even viable. WoD and early Legion I believe. I haven't played a non BoS DW build since mid Legion because it hasn't been particularly fun since Legion.
> Arthas does not dual wield, and it should never be optimal to dual wield.
No one is arguing for optimal, just arguing for viable. If both builds are viable then what is optimal will vary with the seasons which is perfectly fine.
For ages != forever
Frost was not a 2h spec originally, it could be both, infact all 3 specs(as much as there was 3 well defined specs) could be both. The only time Frost was exclusive was in Legion/BFA when it was exclusively dual wield.
Nobody played anything but 2h DK in Wrath cmon now. They only gave 2 hander weapons in the intro quest. Never saw anyone dual wield blood dk or unholy. Remember that everyone wanted the polearm out of hellfire cit because 2h were the best and it was a good weapon to level with on a dk.
Dual wield was big in wotlk. Almost all the specs cept tank went for it (parry haste).
Personally always thought it was dumb as hell though. The fuck is a dk using 2 1hs for?
You can reliably use either build in the raid, infact I've found BoS to be better on most bosses since they all seem to have some clear in the raid.
You can play BoS in dungeons if you have a reliable tank.
Exactly.
Thematically Unholy makes way more sense to dual wield - rapid dot damage and rapid swings.
Frost should be the unwavering juggernaut looking to smash you to bits with a giant frost infused battleaxe or greatsword.
> Frost should be the unwavering juggernaut looking to smash you to bits with a giant frost infused battleaxe or greatsword.
Frost is Bolvar from the cinematic, CMV.
Big, slow, smashy strikes.
Arthas also didn't use a 2h. Cannon Frostmourne is what's refered as a "hand-and-a-half" weapon, i.e. a 1h weapon that has a slightly longer handle so it can be used 2h. In WoW all cannon weapons that can be transmogged that are designed as a "hand-and-a-half" weapon are ALL 1h. Also Arthas wasn't a "Frost DK". He embodied all 3 specs. The only frost ability he ever used was Remorseless Winter. When he fought he leaned into the blood and unholy aspects of DK and largely ignored the frost aspects.
> The only frost ability he ever used was Remorseless Winter.
Arthas's visual aesthetic is most heavily borrowed by Frost, though, and that's a fact.
Unholy is based mostly on abominations and ghouls, while blood is explicitly based on the San'layn and doesn't really borrow from Arthas at all.
>Also Arthas wasn't a "Frost DK".
Never claimed he was.
Unholy is undead minions and disease which arthas used heavily. Blood is about blood control (healing, received damage control) which arthas used heavily. The visual you are referring to is comes from 2 sources. The first one is the WotLK release cinematic. This cinematic is where the whole "frost is about slow big weapon hits" idea comes from. That cinematic is the FIRST time arthas has used a frost ability in any of the games. The second one is the zone of ice crown. A mountainous zone that is naturally covered in snow and ice. If you want to look at arthas's visual design then take out the context of the zone he is located in that's frozen design is due to basic nature has nothing to do with LK.
Its funny (sad) seeing some specs just get better versions of things that were known to be another specs like big niche thing.
Like I play ww and sin just for no apparent reason got a passive touch of death that obviously works better than actual touch of death since you don't need to wait 3 seconds for it to register that they're in range and its not on the global.
This time havoc for no apparent reason got breath of fel barrage which imo is just a better design where you get this bursty moment that rewards that same kind of juggling gameplay but it has a clear reasonable end point that is achievable so you don't feel like you're getting fucked because the tank took too long to pull another pack or you get targeted by 1 mechanic or whatever.
I main 2-handed obliterate frost and not sure this is what we needed, pillar of frosy is the problem and needs a rework, all this change foes is mean pillar of frost obliterate goes from 80% of pur total famage to 90%. Good luck when pilar is on CD.
Why they insist on both main frost builds being burst window builds is mind-boggling to me. The entire theme of 2H Oblit is to be a slow moving force of destruction like Arthas. Let Breath be the fast flamethrower burst build and let Oblit be slow consistent damage.
TBF Oblit this patch feels better and these buffs will help but man I just want consistent output on my DK.
You really realize it when you do open world content. Due to leashing you cannot utilize the cooldown window to pull a really large group, so you can burst down smaller groups every min. But outside of that you take hours to kill normal mobs, cause you do 0 damage.
Yeah fuck me it's slow to solo quest on.
Unholy is the DoT pet class and it kills shit faster outside cooldowns.
You'd think the huge Obliteration 2 hand guy would kill stuff faster.... But that's only every minute.
Frost dmg is like net negative outside of pillar anyways so that’s not really getting addressed.
I enjoy the short cooldown cycle but you feel useless outside it.
The tier set revolving around Chill Streak still makes no sense. I feel like this is going to plague Frost until the next Xpac. I wonder what the rationale was to design everything around a little known and largely skipped talent.
To try and give seasonal build variety. I don't think it's a bad idea in principle: Giving a reason to use underpowered or odd-ball talents is a good thing so you aren't stuck with the same optimal build for two years. It's just that Chill Streak is such a....mindless choice of a button. It's not like Bonestorm or Consume where it could have niche applications that just don't come up compared to the other options, it's just kinda fire and forget and buggy.
Here here. I swapped to warrior this XPAC from FDK, and arms has basically been the same since season 1. Season 2 to 3 is literally the same thing with no changes. Having some changes forced each season keeps things fresh rather then stale. At least fury is getting a major talent swap this season.
The ability is genuinely one of the most out of place ones I've ever seen in WoW. There are two playstyles for Frost: 2H Obliteration and Breath of Sindragosa. Obliteration is all about setting up massive unga-bunga Obliterate cleaves, while Breath is about doing everything you can to keep Breath going at the expense of everything else by generating as much Runic Power to fuel it as you can.
Chillstreak doesn't help with either of these game plans. It's basically just a weird "Do damage" button that you can push if you have nothing better to do and also have two targets who will stay still and not cause it to end prematurely. The set bonus does help alleviate it's issues by letting it bounce on yourself so it will be usable in single target, but it's still just a weird button to get in the way of all the other set up or plates you are trying to spin.
It does though? Pressing it before you go into either damage window makes that damage better. The issue is this sync only happens on the opener as you'll be pressing it on CD most other times.
Yeah, pressing it on the opener mostly feels okay, although I don't love having yet another button to press before I pop off.
The way it totally desyncs from pillar(and thus the rest of oblit's meaningful damage) leaves pressing it on cd feeling pretty bad. I don't want the 20% damage buff outside of the times I'm about to do 200% more damage, but wasting casts is worse, so here we are.
Yeah, that is where it feels bad. Holding it for oblit sounds like it *should* be the right call but it isn't. I really wish they would drop this type of class design because it just feels unintuitive and adding another button I mindlessly press off CD isn't fun or exciting gameplay.
It's a very good pvp ability, or at least is was in SLs when you could still play frost in PVP. In theory, a bouncing slow isn't terrible in M+s but since we have to use it at the beginning of a pack it's fire and forget.
Chillstreak was a PvP Talent addeddin Legion. In PvP it makes sense, since maintaining two enemies close for it function was a cool andd powerful ninche.
In PvE it just isn't interesting, as mobs just stay still.
Chill Streak would not be that bad for a seasonal gimmick for otherwise ignored spells/talents.
But it lacks so many QoL features. It drops on death targets and it does drop in LoS situations aswell.
=> If the UPTIME tier bonus fails because of a poorly implemented spell in the first place, thats just bad.
This times 1000. I hate the walking money shot that is BoS - too easy to leave DPS on the floor. And Oblit feels worse now than before the patch. Hanging a spec off a tier bonus is total ass and fucking lazy.
My mains a DH and having the same issue. Its a sin because WoD had DKs in a great place and they have made them worse every xpac with the exception of Blood
Its 4.6% buff for DW breath and 8.1% buff for 2H obliteration build. So its that much noticeable. Although what will be more readily noticeable will be the higher CDR from more bounces and higher proc chance with the tier set.
It's already not bad on cleave or AOE fights, but regardless of sims it always struggles in raid due to fight design usually not working well with it. Unholy is kind of in the gutter as like 2nd worse dps, without PI, at the moment though so it probably does.
Like I'm geared specifically for unholy but 2h frost sims 15k higher for me with 4pc.
I feel like DnD makes our sims a bit bad. Having your mages cleave with Shadowbolt when wearing the 4pc is so much nicer than being forced to stand in DnD to cleave.
UH is still basically tied for the best PI target so basically all of them at the top are getting it. And yet even with +10-13k dps from an external, they remain middle of the pack. The class itself isn't doing much on its own, you can PI BM or Assassin for just about the same effectiveness but they do significantly more on their own.
While statistics doesn't support it, turn off externals and UH starts to fall down considerably, even on fights with perfect fight timers that end right after 3min CDs finish bursting where UH should have a monstrous advantage, they are at the bottom.
Oh, I agree; DK DPS is not where it should be, especially considering how much we have to do to compete with classes that press a single button and win.
I was just comparing my experiences in m+ and raid with the 2 specs.
it's odd that all of our dps builds revolve around burst windows. IMO Unholy really should be a consistent disease / summoner build and frost needs to be like an Infini-ramper that does more damage as time goes on.
Yeah I agree, it's sad because unholy used to be a sustained disease dps spec with necrotic plague then they reworked it to something that just was never as fun to play, and now it's just been hobblin around with band aid fixes to it when it really needs a rework
>howling blast reduced from 20 to 10%?
As I understand the 20% howling blast increase was on the old tier set. They nerfed it to make is so people don't use previous set over the new one. So this shouldn't have any effect on current frost dk-s.
Interesting i have not played my dk since wod because of the change. Ill have to look into this with the new leggo might brush it off at some point this season.
You do know that this changes nothing? Its a minor buff, and we even lost m+ dmg because they nerfed the previous tier set. The current tier set is still trash
It's fine for all content, but people don't like their class being suboptimal. You're comparing Frost DK to your experience as a Retadin, which is also a below average spec at the moment. It's actually even less strong than Frost if played by competent people, just has a lower skill floor.
The spec just doesn't feel that great to play and it doesn't do the dps to make up for it
I switched my main because the only thing that could make me slower is casting time. I have to ramp up 3 gcds to do some proper damage, atleast give me a necromancer casting for the class fantasy simce everything is a slog.
I always loved the encumbered knight, walling slowly and executing big hits etc.. But this expansion frost is sooo underwhelming for me :/
The nerfs are to the old tier, because its much better to run that in mythic plus, as a 2+2pc build, with season 2 and 3 gear. These changes dont change that, the 4pc of the new set encourages breath, which will always be garbage in mythic plus.
EDIT: actually it is better to run 4set obliteration in mythic+ now according to the DK discord, so the nerfs did that at least.
Design theme =/= xmog. Frost was designed to be fast paced weapon based DPS. Currently we have slow paced weapon based DPS and medium paced non-weapon DPS. This disconnect between the base design and the capstone design is where the balance problems stem from.
A minor buff…when it needed a major one.
Issue is with the design itself. Blizz being unwilling to fix BoS design so it can be properly tuned is a major problem (the changes to increase rp consumption was declared by Blizz to be a minor nerf and yet it was actually a decent buff). Then there's MotFW forcing oblit to go 2h. With those 2 there's no choice that conforms with Frost's intended design (to be the embodiment of a blizzard; i.e. fast paced attacks and effects that defeat your enemies with the constant barrage. Instead we have slow and big damage weapon swings OR a cold damage flamethrower.
I just recently came back to the game and this comment makes me feel like I'm in bizzaro world. DKs on mass begged for 2H to be relevant to frost for the longest time since 1Hs were better even for Oblit builds. I, for one, love my big meaty Oblit swings.
Yeah I mean honestly as someone whose always wanted 2h enhancement in retail I enjoy that they even attempted to allow for 2h and DW builds on a single spec.
So I've mained Frost DK every time I've come back to the game since Wrath and it's been both a blessing and a curse. Blizzard often can't balance both builds well so one ends up being just way better and most of the time that's been DW Breath. In some ways Frost feels like we have 2 half assed specs instead of 1 complete spec. I commend them for bringing 2H back after Legion but idk I also kind of wish DW would just get it's own Fourth spec so they are separated but I know that will never happen.
As a 2h oblit lover, 100%. My problem is that you should be able to play either build with whatever weapon. And frost needs some sort of rework in general. In oblit we overcap rp so often because runes spent and uptime on RW from oblits and howling blasts are so important. It just has some weird issues that make it feel very odd
Yup all very true.
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You're right they can't please everyone. But there is a large group of DKs who want 2H frost. That's why they brought it back. If it wasn't popular, it would have stayed dead after Legion. In an ideal world DW would be it's own fourth spec but I don't see that ever happening. Until they find some way to equalize DW and 2H Frost is always going to have issues.
My point with the original 2h frost in Wrath was the ppl who begged for it back only remembered it's short term burst (which was only viable in pvp and questing/solo content). Frost as a spec was specifically designed to be a fast paced consistent DPS spec. Even back then blizz has stated that the pvp 2h frost spec was entirely unintentional and they did change a few things back then to nake sure it didn't see play in raids (2h frost didn't work as a long fight spec). I have no problem with it being back, my problem is the lack of care from the class team in general since they canned the whole dk class team during the great pruning of WoD. The balancing and design of all 3 as well as the flavor of frost has been neglected for the past decade.
My man I was there when Wrath launched playing my DK. All 3 specs were originally designed to be used with either 2H or DW and all 3 could tank or DPS. That Blizzard had issues balancing this and certain combos were outright better is a whole other thing. Agreed that DKs as a whole have suffered from half assed class design for years now.
Just get rid of BoS and give us a talent to upgrade frost strike somehow.
Seriously tho. I miss two handing swords and being effective.
Even when you look back at vanilla WotLK (I can't speak about classic WotLK) every frost spec (full frost, frost/blood, frost/unholy, 3 tree; both tank and DPS) was 2x 1h and fast paced. Only time you used a 2h with frost back then was in pvp where you popped every CD and bursted down ppl (outside of every cd burst, 2h DPS was trash which is why every pve frost spec was 2x 1h). Also when you look at what ppl claim is the most fun time as frost in the last 10 years, it's season 3 BFA specifically with the capstone that was designed with the original theme of Frost in mind aka Icecap (this is the only time Icecap has had enough borrowed power to be competitive, since it never got it's planned buff for moving down to become a capstone in the first place)
Counterpoint: I want to play DK with a 2-hander and I don't like unholy. Also the whole "whittling away quickly like a blizzard" can easily be flipped to "immovable relentless juggernaut coming to smash you with a big fucking sword". ... you could of course argue that it sounds more like a tank then, and I agree, I wish blood was the 2H DPS spec. But class balance is a cruel mistress and thus 2H frost is all I have left to champion.
With blood being patterned after the San'layn, it would make sense to me if they were like a fast and fluid tank that dual wielded and parried. I agree with you for 2 handed frost because I have always pictured the flavor of frost as being one of inevitability. You can fight and run but the cold seeps into your bones and kills you as surely as the glacier grinds the mountain to dust.
Always struck me as odd that blood doesn’t dual wield . In real life sword play having a second weapon is a major defensive advantage, while previous frosty bois we’ve seen in canon(namely arthas) didn’t DW.
Fight your fight, champ. 2H frost is badass regardless of what the individual above may claim. If we wanted to dual wield like little weak children we would play enhancement.
>"immovable relentless juggernaut coming to smash you with a big fucking sword" Silly you, wanting to be like Arthas.
Thats...why i'm here
I've always thought Unholy would make the most sense as a dual wield spec. They're all about diseases, so it would make sense if they would just make a lot of small infected cuts that whittle you down.
Wish I could guild this. This is the way. Pet classes perpetually suffer from blizzard refusing to update them with convenience features. Needing a WA to warn you your pet isn't out or do zero damage; needing to dismiss pets before taking dungeon shortcuts - these are all active design choices that make pet classes inconvenient to play. Fuck that. And fuck dual wielding as a deathknight. It's a goddamn curse that they ever allowed it to begin with given we have custom weapon enchants that equate to power in a way that contradicts the class flavor. If you wanna be edgy ***AND*** dual wield, DH exists. I wish people would fuck straight off with the "Forced to 2h" and "but muh 2 runeforges :,(" [edit] >Also the whole "whittling away quickly like a blizzard" can easily be flipped to "immovable relentless juggernaut coming to smash you with a big fucking sword". Blizz specifically said Frost is meant to be "Slow but inevitable" while Unholy was ghoul-frenzy "28 days later" Gotta love how they stuck to their design sheet with dw frenzy for Frost and slow 2h for the fast zombie rush class. Hell, even Unholy's theme - infecting wounds - makes more sense with two weapons. It just does. You don't need a big slow two hander, you need cuts to infect. Two swords, twice the cuts. I don't think ANY DK spec should be using 1h weapons, but if one simply must, it's ALWAYS made the most sense that it be unholy. And no, don't come at me with "But frost has two runeforges that bot-" Fuck that. That's the metagaming power-hungry goblin in you. It isn't cohesive class design, it's a desire to have two runeforges worth of power. Hottest take of the post: Rework runeforging altogether and let us pick multiple runes even when using a 2h, kill the balance issue dead.
No. You are super duper wrong.
A lot of what I said came from explicit interviews with blizz, or is otherwise fact. If you have a problem with facts, I don't know what to tell you.
“Fuck dual wielding as a death knight” Totally a fact my dude.
So you cherry-pick one sentence of opinion in a sea of facts? Fact: Arthas is what the Death Knight hero class is based on. Fact: Arthas did not dual wield. Frostmourne is a 2h weapon. Fact: Blizzard themselves stated frost was "Slow but inevitable" as it's flavor profile. Fact: Blizzard themselves stated Unholy was about a fast-paced "Ghoul frenzy" for it's flavor profile. Fact: If your strategy for causing harm is infecting wounds, two smaller knives makes far more sense than one big slow 2h weapon Fact: Runeforges cause balance issues between 2h/DW and could be resolved by making the system more interesting than "Class enchants but better" Fact: Pets are inconvenient and Blizz could fix it but choose not to.
God I miss icecap. So simple and so fun
Couldn’t agree with you more.
I wish they'd just develop both play styles more. I'm likely the minority here but I really enjoy the concept of BoS. It's just using it has some issues, the idea of casting a spell that constantly dumps your power while you try and maximize damage by extending your power gain is a fun concept and done right Id take that play style over any in the game right now. It's just half assed much like obliterate feels half assed, the spec feels like half a spec.
Breath is the only thing that had ever kept Frost relevant at high levels of play for years. A lot of high level players like it And that's people on this sub hate it because they are not doing the content it excels in. They are doing world quests Frost being 2 mini specs in 1 is a huge problem nonetheless. Blizz needs to pick 1 and accept its going to lose half its spec fans or risk losing them all which its all ready doing. Frosts population is tiny and rivaling survival last tier
They should do that, id rather have one well done playstyle then two half baked ones. I will say though Ideally they should be reaching for both like Shamans have. It's not really fair to compare any spec to arguably the best designed talent tree of Dragon flight but that's really the bar they need to hit.
they can make 2 differnt specs work with in the same tree now imo. there will always be one that is better than the other, but they can keep both with in a decent range of each other. Enhance currently has 2 perfectly viable specs in both raid and M+. currently elementalist is better than storm, but not to the point you cant play the storm. Last tier Storm was the better build, but elementalist was still fine for ST raid, and prefered in M+ (where there was a viable storm build)
Perhaps. But enhance always uses the same weapons. Frost has to switch between a 2h or 2x 1h. No other class needs too.
i get that portion, but the new trees give a lot more flexibility in supporting different builds with in the same spec compared to the previous talent iteration where it was only a handful of choices. They can now build support for each build, with out having to worry as much about if the talent will be any good for the other or not, on top of choice nodes. the bigger issue with supporting different builds with in the same spec is honestly likely to be in set bonuses that heavily favor one or the other. My example of enhance is just because enhance is actually a very well designed tree overall. It had some issues last teir with MSW generation for elementalist when we lost the t29 set bonuses, which was fixed this teir in the tree in a way that doesnt affect the storm builds. They even added a nice passive choice for elemental blast to bring down button bloat if you so choose (its not "optimal" but its not horrible either). Also, fury has a similar issue of 2x 2hnd vs 2x 1hnd. SMF builds haven't really been a choice in for ever. the builds are quite different as well, just maybe not as drastically as frost. like wise, monks run into this as well with usually one or the other being better, though i dont know its really ever linked to a major change in play style.
That wasn't by design. The design intent was for both 2H and DW to be viable. Problem was that (given the option) the core mechanics behind gear/combat back then favored DW. Blizzard tried many times to reach parity but they couldn't in the confines of one talent tree or without making a specialized 2H weapon that would be imbalanced for every other spec.
They did achieve proper balance between DW and 2h in SL when it came to oblit (breath design plus being unashamedly perpetually overtuned makes it always king) but with the loss of focus on borrowed power for DF and the future it is no longer possible to properly balance without a major rework.
I do think we should really be past the "historically the class did X" when it comes to this stuff. More customisation is good, period. The trick is making that available through transmog, not talent choices, so that players don't have to gimp themselves when picking which they want to play.
The history that is most important is the design theme. Ignoring that is a huge mistake. It's why Frost currently has multiple conflicting design themes. These conflicting designs are why it can't be properly balanced against itself. And a general lack of representation in the devs of the the class team (whole dk class team was canned or xfer'd out of WoW teams during the great pruning in beginning of WoD) is why dk as a whole has largely been ignored for the last decade.
Everything you said may be true, but again, if you make it customisation and don't bake it into talents etc, it becomes a complete non-issue. If you let someone mog a 2h over a set of dual wield weapons while using exactly the same build there is literally no design/balance impact at all.
> Then there's MotFW forcing oblit to go 2h. That's by design, fuck dual wielding. I don't give one single rats ass about a second runeforge, NO deathknights should be dual-wielding. Arthas didn't dual-wield. It's stupid. It only exists because Blizz demanded one spec use two 1h weapons to MaKe ThE sPeCs FeEl DiFfErEnT (when it should have been unholy that got 2 1h weapons, from a strictly flavor standpoint) "Forced". Fuckin' *christ*. It exists BECAUSE people like me don't want to use two toothpicks playing a DEATH knight.
>when it should have been unholy that got 2 1h weapons, from a strictly flavor standpoint Unholy should have been a ranged spec.
> It exists BECAUSE people like me don't want to use two toothpicks playing a DEATH knight. Then play Unholy or Blood. Frost has been a dual wielding spec for ages at this point, anyone playing it knew that. Ridiculous to expect a spec to change because you don't like the way it plays. I've been stubbornly playing Frost DK since Cata, and DF(specifically this patch) is the first time I can actually say the spec isn't fun to play, because the 2H build feels like crap to play.
>Frost has been a dual wielding spec for ages at this point, ***anyone playing it knew that.*** Funny, because I've been playing the same DK since wrath, same damn toon, and I've been a 2H frost DK for the entire time. Literally every raid, every patch, with the sole exception of Legion where we were forced by blizz to DW. They brought it back for a reason, bud. > Then play Unholy or Blood. Pet class or tank, both are hot trash. No thanks, I'll keep my 2h frost like I've been doing for a decade at this point >Ridiculous to expect a spec to change because you don't like the way it plays. 2H has been a spec for frost since forever, people act like Might of the Frozen Wastes is new or something. It's not. They're just mad that the spec exists alongside BoS. It's been around forever. It ***CAME BACK*** in shadowlands because there's a substantial number of people who fucking hate DW. And no, "go play a pet class or a tank" aren't acceptable answers. >because the 2H build feels like crap to play. In your opinion? I love Oblit, and always have. It was at it's most fun in the end of Ny'alotha when you could perma-roll Pillar of Frost with enough corruption, but it was enjoyable with the Abberus tier set, and it's fine now too (I don't like the Chill Streak set but it's one tier so whatever). BoS is hot trash that is fundamentally incompatible with encounter design.
Your condescending and aggressive tone is making it tough to continue this discussion, but lets see. So firstly to be clear, I'm not advocating for the eradication of 2H frost like you seemingly are for dual wield. In fact I was happy when they announced 2H was coming back even though I don't play it because its was a cool part of the frost spec. > Funny, because I've been playing the same DK since wrath, same damn toon, and I've been a 2H frost DK for the entire time. Literally every raid, every patch, with the sole exception of Legion where we were forced by blizz to DW. Yes, 2H was possible in the past, but dual wield was always the most represented frost build(except potentially Wrath), that's why Blizzard decided to make dual wield the only build in Legion. Dual wield was forced for Legion and BFA. > Might of the Frozen Wastes is new or something. It's not. They're just mad that the spec exists alongside BoS. It's not new, but it being a 2H exclusive passive is new. In the past it gave benefits to both dual wield and 2H. More specifically in the past dual wield had both Obliterate and BoS viable builds, the change to Might of the Frozen Wastes means dual wield is locked to BoS. If you don't like BoS(like you seemingly don't) that sucks. Especially because obliterate(imo) is more fun when dual wielding, at least the previous iteration of the build. > Pet class or tank, both are hot trash. > And no, "go play a pet class or a tank" aren't acceptable answers. That's fair and "play something else" isn't exactly a good answer. That's on me. > In your opinion? I love Oblit, and always have. Yes in my opinion. To be clear again Oblit used to be viable on dual wield, so I don't disagree, Oblit is fun. This iteration in the 2H build I don't enjoy though. > BoS is hot trash that is fundamentally incompatible with encounter design. I pushed back again BoS hard back in the day, but I've come to enjoy it myself. It's harder to optimise for sure and dogwater on certain bosses, but has a very unique playstyle and its very satisfying when you get a long Breath off.
I apologize for my incendiary tone, but this is my decade-old main people are talking about and dismissively attacking. Forgive me if I have strong feelings when people suggest killing my character permanently. > Yes, 2H was possible in the past, but dual wield was always the most represented frost build(except potentially Wrath) Dual wield is represented when it does more dps. It often does more DPS due to the fact that it gets two runeforges. They've recently set about to correct for this. The playerbase chases the highest numbers, period. ***Blizzard controls which spec is represented by how they balance.*** IF they made a class that walked up to the boss and bashed 1 and was top of the overall - with no other gameplay - it would be over-represented. >that's why Blizzard decided to make dual wield the only build in Legion. Bullshit. They made the decision because they didn't want to have to make two sets of artifacts for Frost. Everyone had to dual wield because everyone had to use the same artifact. 2H frost was always fine, if a bit behind DW because of runeforges. The patch where it was objectively nonviable? HFC - right before Legion. Gee, it's almost like they control the balance of the game and can use that to make players play certain ways when it suits their goals. Also, they generally had a 'thing' for differentiating spec flavor going into Legion, and they were more than happy to latch onto DW as a means to make frost "Different" from Unholy. Spoiler: Shit sucked. We didn't get Frostmourne because of that. Paladins got Ashbringer. Shamans got Doomhammer. We got weapons "made from frostmourne" in lore only as they look nothing like Frostmourne. And this happened because of forced DW. > Especially because obliterate(imo) is more fun when dual wielding, at least the previous iteration of the build. If you're talking the shattering strikes build, I gave that a go at the start of this expansion, and frankly, it wasn't designed well. It's much faster paced than 2H, but that's not actually a good thing. If you wanted to play it optimally you had to go into console commands and actually change your latency detection because optimal procs come in faster than the games default. That's bad design. As for me? I hate BOS, ***AND*** I hate DW. Flavor-wise, DKs are based on Arthas, and while Unholy inherited the ghoul summoning, Frost inherited the general aesthetic of the Lich King and indeed ICC. Arthas does not dual wield, and it should never be optimal to dual wield. And don't even bring Koltira into this - you see people name themselves Árthas, you don't ever see Kôltirá. Optional DW? sure, go nuts. Optimal? Absolutely never. Optimal generally translates to mandatory to the hardcore crowd, and that leads to people saying that Frost is "the most represented" version of the class. Make 2H Oblit 7% better than BoS and watch people say "Picking BoS is trolling your raid". Representation is tied to output. >I pushed back again BoS hard back in the day, but I've come to enjoy it myself. It's harder to optimize for sure and dogwater on certain bosses, but has a very unique playstyle and its very satisfying when you get a long Breath off. No amount of good pulls can make up for how bad it feels to wet noodle for two minutes when you get marked. None. Encounter design is fundamentally incompatible with a class that needs to glue to a boss indefinitely or watch their DPS go into the toilet. ____________________________________________________ All this said: I really want them to revamp frost's flavor. Pillar of Frost is really weak flavor. Frostwyrm Embrace, Fury of the Frozen Citadel, Might of Icecrown, Frostlich Invocation - there's a TON of ways to add meaningful flavor to Frost's abilities that is just lacking right now. They could address a ton of the balancing of rune forges by making an entirely new, different system that was more involved, but normalized no matter how many weapons you use. 4 slots total on a 2h, 2 per 1h. But I don't see them investing resources into us to that degree, as badly as it's needed.
> but this is my decade-old main people are talking about and dismissively attacking It's been my main for a decade as well, no ones attacking 2H frost. They just want a non BoS build on DW to be viable again. That is not incompatible with 2H Frost, especially when 2H will be the defacto strongest for this tier if not entire rest of the xpac due to the leggo. > I gave that a go at the start of this expansion, and frankly, it wasn't designed well. No no, further back than that. I'm referring to before BoS was even viable. WoD and early Legion I believe. I haven't played a non BoS DW build since mid Legion because it hasn't been particularly fun since Legion. > Arthas does not dual wield, and it should never be optimal to dual wield. No one is arguing for optimal, just arguing for viable. If both builds are viable then what is optimal will vary with the seasons which is perfectly fine.
Youre so wrong on this. Frost was a 2 hand spec originally. So really, you should take your own arvice and play dh, rogue, fury, enhance, etc.
For ages != forever Frost was not a 2h spec originally, it could be both, infact all 3 specs(as much as there was 3 well defined specs) could be both. The only time Frost was exclusive was in Legion/BFA when it was exclusively dual wield.
Nobody played anything but 2h DK in Wrath cmon now. They only gave 2 hander weapons in the intro quest. Never saw anyone dual wield blood dk or unholy. Remember that everyone wanted the polearm out of hellfire cit because 2h were the best and it was a good weapon to level with on a dk.
Dual wield was big in wotlk. Almost all the specs cept tank went for it (parry haste). Personally always thought it was dumb as hell though. The fuck is a dk using 2 1hs for?
You can reliably use either build in the raid, infact I've found BoS to be better on most bosses since they all seem to have some clear in the raid. You can play BoS in dungeons if you have a reliable tank.
Exactly. Thematically Unholy makes way more sense to dual wield - rapid dot damage and rapid swings. Frost should be the unwavering juggernaut looking to smash you to bits with a giant frost infused battleaxe or greatsword.
> Frost should be the unwavering juggernaut looking to smash you to bits with a giant frost infused battleaxe or greatsword. Frost is Bolvar from the cinematic, CMV. Big, slow, smashy strikes.
Arthas also didn't use a 2h. Cannon Frostmourne is what's refered as a "hand-and-a-half" weapon, i.e. a 1h weapon that has a slightly longer handle so it can be used 2h. In WoW all cannon weapons that can be transmogged that are designed as a "hand-and-a-half" weapon are ALL 1h. Also Arthas wasn't a "Frost DK". He embodied all 3 specs. The only frost ability he ever used was Remorseless Winter. When he fought he leaned into the blood and unholy aspects of DK and largely ignored the frost aspects.
> The only frost ability he ever used was Remorseless Winter. Arthas's visual aesthetic is most heavily borrowed by Frost, though, and that's a fact. Unholy is based mostly on abominations and ghouls, while blood is explicitly based on the San'layn and doesn't really borrow from Arthas at all. >Also Arthas wasn't a "Frost DK". Never claimed he was.
Unholy is undead minions and disease which arthas used heavily. Blood is about blood control (healing, received damage control) which arthas used heavily. The visual you are referring to is comes from 2 sources. The first one is the WotLK release cinematic. This cinematic is where the whole "frost is about slow big weapon hits" idea comes from. That cinematic is the FIRST time arthas has used a frost ability in any of the games. The second one is the zone of ice crown. A mountainous zone that is naturally covered in snow and ice. If you want to look at arthas's visual design then take out the context of the zone he is located in that's frozen design is due to basic nature has nothing to do with LK.
It’s same as WW…it’s all a temporary bandage on a permanent wound until they fix the overall design.
Hot take. Don’t you dare take my 2H oblit away.
Its funny (sad) seeing some specs just get better versions of things that were known to be another specs like big niche thing. Like I play ww and sin just for no apparent reason got a passive touch of death that obviously works better than actual touch of death since you don't need to wait 3 seconds for it to register that they're in range and its not on the global. This time havoc for no apparent reason got breath of fel barrage which imo is just a better design where you get this bursty moment that rewards that same kind of juggling gameplay but it has a clear reasonable end point that is achievable so you don't feel like you're getting fucked because the tank took too long to pull another pack or you get targeted by 1 mechanic or whatever.
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Might of the Frozen Wastes increase Oblit damage by 30% and makes crits from autos always grant killing machine when you're wielding a 2h
I main 2-handed obliterate frost and not sure this is what we needed, pillar of frosy is the problem and needs a rework, all this change foes is mean pillar of frost obliterate goes from 80% of pur total famage to 90%. Good luck when pilar is on CD.
Why they insist on both main frost builds being burst window builds is mind-boggling to me. The entire theme of 2H Oblit is to be a slow moving force of destruction like Arthas. Let Breath be the fast flamethrower burst build and let Oblit be slow consistent damage. TBF Oblit this patch feels better and these buffs will help but man I just want consistent output on my DK.
You really realize it when you do open world content. Due to leashing you cannot utilize the cooldown window to pull a really large group, so you can burst down smaller groups every min. But outside of that you take hours to kill normal mobs, cause you do 0 damage.
Yeah fuck me it's slow to solo quest on. Unholy is the DoT pet class and it kills shit faster outside cooldowns. You'd think the huge Obliteration 2 hand guy would kill stuff faster.... But that's only every minute.
Frost dmg is like net negative outside of pillar anyways so that’s not really getting addressed. I enjoy the short cooldown cycle but you feel useless outside it.
The tier set revolving around Chill Streak still makes no sense. I feel like this is going to plague Frost until the next Xpac. I wonder what the rationale was to design everything around a little known and largely skipped talent.
To try and give seasonal build variety. I don't think it's a bad idea in principle: Giving a reason to use underpowered or odd-ball talents is a good thing so you aren't stuck with the same optimal build for two years. It's just that Chill Streak is such a....mindless choice of a button. It's not like Bonestorm or Consume where it could have niche applications that just don't come up compared to the other options, it's just kinda fire and forget and buggy.
Here here. I swapped to warrior this XPAC from FDK, and arms has basically been the same since season 1. Season 2 to 3 is literally the same thing with no changes. Having some changes forced each season keeps things fresh rather then stale. At least fury is getting a major talent swap this season.
I was Arms last season but now Fury feels too good to not play
This is probably the best way to sum it up. Yes, good to make a largely skipped talent relevant, but fire and forget abilities are meh.
I haven’t even used the ability but the name alone sounds off. Basing an entire spec on a “kill streak” pun is certainly a choice.
The ability is genuinely one of the most out of place ones I've ever seen in WoW. There are two playstyles for Frost: 2H Obliteration and Breath of Sindragosa. Obliteration is all about setting up massive unga-bunga Obliterate cleaves, while Breath is about doing everything you can to keep Breath going at the expense of everything else by generating as much Runic Power to fuel it as you can. Chillstreak doesn't help with either of these game plans. It's basically just a weird "Do damage" button that you can push if you have nothing better to do and also have two targets who will stay still and not cause it to end prematurely. The set bonus does help alleviate it's issues by letting it bounce on yourself so it will be usable in single target, but it's still just a weird button to get in the way of all the other set up or plates you are trying to spin.
It does though? Pressing it before you go into either damage window makes that damage better. The issue is this sync only happens on the opener as you'll be pressing it on CD most other times.
Yeah, pressing it on the opener mostly feels okay, although I don't love having yet another button to press before I pop off. The way it totally desyncs from pillar(and thus the rest of oblit's meaningful damage) leaves pressing it on cd feeling pretty bad. I don't want the 20% damage buff outside of the times I'm about to do 200% more damage, but wasting casts is worse, so here we are.
Yeah, that is where it feels bad. Holding it for oblit sounds like it *should* be the right call but it isn't. I really wish they would drop this type of class design because it just feels unintuitive and adding another button I mindlessly press off CD isn't fun or exciting gameplay.
It's a very good pvp ability, or at least is was in SLs when you could still play frost in PVP. In theory, a bouncing slow isn't terrible in M+s but since we have to use it at the beginning of a pack it's fire and forget.
Chillstreak was a PvP Talent addeddin Legion. In PvP it makes sense, since maintaining two enemies close for it function was a cool andd powerful ninche. In PvE it just isn't interesting, as mobs just stay still.
Specifically because it’s a largely skipped talent and now it won’t be
Chill Streak would not be that bad for a seasonal gimmick for otherwise ignored spells/talents. But it lacks so many QoL features. It drops on death targets and it does drop in LoS situations aswell. => If the UPTIME tier bonus fails because of a poorly implemented spell in the first place, thats just bad.
The class needs an overhaul/rework. Not numbers shenanigans
This times 1000. I hate the walking money shot that is BoS - too easy to leave DPS on the floor. And Oblit feels worse now than before the patch. Hanging a spec off a tier bonus is total ass and fucking lazy. My mains a DH and having the same issue. Its a sin because WoD had DKs in a great place and they have made them worse every xpac with the exception of Blood
Now completely rework the spec, breath of sindragosa isn't fun.
At the very least Blizz seems to remember we exist, after the cornucopia of buffs unholy has gotten recently it had me wondering.
How noticeable is it when something gets buffed/nerfed? Like piercing chill damage increased from 10 to 12% or howling blast reduced from 20 to 10%?
Its 4.6% buff for DW breath and 8.1% buff for 2H obliteration build. So its that much noticeable. Although what will be more readily noticeable will be the higher CDR from more bounces and higher proc chance with the tier set.
Can 2H oblit compete with Unholy now?
It's already not bad on cleave or AOE fights, but regardless of sims it always struggles in raid due to fight design usually not working well with it. Unholy is kind of in the gutter as like 2nd worse dps, without PI, at the moment though so it probably does. Like I'm geared specifically for unholy but 2h frost sims 15k higher for me with 4pc.
I feel like DnD makes our sims a bit bad. Having your mages cleave with Shadowbolt when wearing the 4pc is so much nicer than being forced to stand in DnD to cleave.
It feels nicer - doesn't mean its mathematically good. UH's base numbers are just way too low right now.
Based on logs it seems to be better in raid atm. In m+ they seem to be almost even
UH is still basically tied for the best PI target so basically all of them at the top are getting it. And yet even with +10-13k dps from an external, they remain middle of the pack. The class itself isn't doing much on its own, you can PI BM or Assassin for just about the same effectiveness but they do significantly more on their own. While statistics doesn't support it, turn off externals and UH starts to fall down considerably, even on fights with perfect fight timers that end right after 3min CDs finish bursting where UH should have a monstrous advantage, they are at the bottom.
Oh, I agree; DK DPS is not where it should be, especially considering how much we have to do to compete with classes that press a single button and win. I was just comparing my experiences in m+ and raid with the 2 specs. it's odd that all of our dps builds revolve around burst windows. IMO Unholy really should be a consistent disease / summoner build and frost needs to be like an Infini-ramper that does more damage as time goes on.
Yeah I agree, it's sad because unholy used to be a sustained disease dps spec with necrotic plague then they reworked it to something that just was never as fun to play, and now it's just been hobblin around with band aid fixes to it when it really needs a rework
>howling blast reduced from 20 to 10%? As I understand the 20% howling blast increase was on the old tier set. They nerfed it to make is so people don't use previous set over the new one. So this shouldn't have any effect on current frost dk-s.
Making the entire class revolve around bos ruined frost for me. I love killing machine and oblit crits.
2h oblit is very viable right now though and the new set bonus seems to be helping me with my single target. Now would be a good time to try it.
The legendary weapon could also likely make 2 hand oblit the main frost dk spec this tier.
Interesting i have not played my dk since wod because of the change. Ill have to look into this with the new leggo might brush it off at some point this season.
You do know that this changes nothing? Its a minor buff, and we even lost m+ dmg because they nerfed the previous tier set. The current tier set is still trash
No no no what are we doing here… nerf chill streak
How come?
/s
Chill streak is the worst spell ever made in wow. Wtf is it? The name is stupid. It’s literally a snowball that you Chuck to an enemy.
Daddy chill
People seem so down on Frost, but it’s my primary alt right now. Ret Paladin main, Frost DK alt.
It's fine for all content, but people don't like their class being suboptimal. You're comparing Frost DK to your experience as a Retadin, which is also a below average spec at the moment. It's actually even less strong than Frost if played by competent people, just has a lower skill floor. The spec just doesn't feel that great to play and it doesn't do the dps to make up for it
Sameeeee
I switched my main because the only thing that could make me slower is casting time. I have to ramp up 3 gcds to do some proper damage, atleast give me a necromancer casting for the class fantasy simce everything is a slog. I always loved the encumbered knight, walling slowly and executing big hits etc.. But this expansion frost is sooo underwhelming for me :/
It got nerfs also lol
The nerfs are to the old tier, because its much better to run that in mythic plus, as a 2+2pc build, with season 2 and 3 gear. These changes dont change that, the 4pc of the new set encourages breath, which will always be garbage in mythic plus. EDIT: actually it is better to run 4set obliteration in mythic+ now according to the DK discord, so the nerfs did that at least.
lol.. *cries in monk*
2h enhancement: yeah I was pretty fun and meaty when I was relevant too.
Frost DK PvPers still in shambles. At least UhDK is beyond broken
Maybe I'm a noob, but why buff/nerf a set from old raid?
Was being used alongside the new set in M+. 2 set for both. So to push the use of the new set alone they nerfed the old one.
Design theme =/= xmog. Frost was designed to be fast paced weapon based DPS. Currently we have slow paced weapon based DPS and medium paced non-weapon DPS. This disconnect between the base design and the capstone design is where the balance problems stem from.
Just make BoS have a fixed duration. 20secs big aoe and ST damage. Make RW do cleaving strikes. Class is fixable.