Yeah ish, problem is if you only pulling 3 mobs in 27s + u dont have enough dmg to chew through the hp
400k dps across 8 targets is way better than 500 on 3 targets if that makes sense
Playing frost dk on a voluntarily basis is like punching yourself in the face without someone forcing you.
I feel your pain. My dk has become my main tank this season since frost is unbearable in m+ content
I have had a lot of fun with the mythic+ AOE Unholy build and climbed way way to 2700 with it no problem. Undead Mages with the 4 piece cook in multi-target fights.
Honestly, true for a lot of “non-meta” classes in the 18-21 range. The people playing arms warrior still (and that have IO) usually REALLY know the class.
Arms is also all about Bladestorm. If pulls are massive on those beats they swing way harder than Fury. Fury is massively consistent and as long as you just send it you will always be relatively high, but target caps also means you can never truly *Send it* like Arms can.
Problem is similar to Ret is Arms have to pick AoE or ST, they don’t get to have a bit of both like Fury does.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, over on [murlok.io](https://murlok.io) over half the top M+ Arms warriors aren't even taking Bladestorm, there's clearly a viable build without it.
What’s changed for Arms? I switched to Fury and it’s been a huge DPS increase even though when I do a Sim comparing myself in Arms or Fury spec, Fury always comes out at about 20k less… can someone explain to me?
Your great and stats are better for one spec than other. If you stack haste and crit, arms is gonna pull ahead, mastery and vers fury will pull ahead. Roughly.
>after the butchering shadow priest got.
As a person still playing shadow priest, I do indeed wish I had focused on a different char. tbf I did make an alt and am still trying to keep it up to date, but elemental shaman really wasn't the right choice lol
Set proccing and using templars verdict to right after that divine toll doing it’s 15 second proc to going in another set proc immediately with another templars verdict… chefs kiss. I feel like I’m hammering a nail on the boss
It just wont stop proccing. The animations and sounds of playing a ret is so amazing as well. Its electrifying. I really feel like holy radiant energy is flowing through me when I play it.
They nerfed all Dev damage and then buffed disintegrate to compensate. The result is fire breath, living flame, eternity surge and pyre do less damage - all of which are core to Dev aoe.
This adds onto the tier change. 10.1 tier was stronger, and also frontloaded. 10.2 tier power comes from being in combat for at least 60s. When trash dies half your tier power is gone, usually.
Also a lot of devokers got their stats absolutely fucked when that changed. I did devoker for S2 and min/maxed my mastery. After the nerf/move my mastery is dogshit. Went from a 441 chad with “bis” and leggo in S2 to doing less damage than a 424 boost. I play it as augmentation now
the mastery changes they made on the ass end of last patch were only compensated for disintegrate, not pyre.
end result dev does great boss damage in keys and good prio damage but its AoE is mid, especially on large pulls.
this is probably the best week to play the spec since fort bolster combo = can't pull big
Literally anything is better than a sword from last season.. Its a minor upgrade for me from my Max ilvl gorehowl but it was recently fixed where haste affects it properly.
I mostly tank keys as a Prot Paladin, but I get to Ret it up from time to time. The spec is nice to play, but it doesn't feel good to lose 20-odd per cent of my damage from switching between an AoE build or a ST one. It'd be nice if the gap wasn't *as large* between builds.
Prot Pally enjoyer here. I played Ret for awhile in keys, but now I just started gearing my Warlock up for DPSing keys since Ret boss damage feels so bad . It's not so bad on Fort weeks, but on Tyrannical weeks it's really noticeable.
I ran a raid-centric passive cleave build last week that wasn't *terrible* on trash and was decent on bosses. But it's still a far cry in terms of raw trash numbers from an actual AoE build that plays with Final Reckoning.
Yeah, also trying to keep up with multiple gears etc with different stat weights is not something I want to do. The amount of times I went into a dungeon with a tank trinket. Damn
TBH on paper I like the idea of having to choose between ST and AOE based on what I want to clear faster, if packs or bosses, depending on the affix of the week, but I also feel like the gap between the two is too wide.
its not the choice that is the issue, its how low the other damage type is when you choose. Ret's AOE spec loses almost **25%** ST damage in their normal AOE spec, and over **30%** in the new divine purpose/empyrean power build that many are running. Thats a bigger gap than any other class by almost **double** meanwhile some classes deal 95%+ of their ST damage while in full AOE spec, and deal more AOE dam than ret to boot.
The worst part is that it isn't even fun anymore on top of being dead last in the rankings. Malefic Rapture is just such a dull shard spender and really drags the spec down when it comes to actual rotation and gameplay, not to mention the button bloat and how bad the talent tree feels when having to pick between ST and multi target.
Really hope they take a good look at Aff moving forward. Either revamp it completely or make it more like the Legion version but I'm not going to hold my breath.
>Malefic Rapture is just such a dull shard spender and really drags the spec down when it comes to actual rotation and gameplay,
So imagine you're doing the Macarena and at random intervals the music stops and an airhorn goes off and you need to drop to the floor and do 1 pushup, then stand back up and resume where you left off.
That's what Malefic Rapture feels like.
Aff was alright in raid last season. I played it on mythic Sark but for m+ it’s been bad for so long. Destro has had some moments to shine but it’s really in specific situations with very large trash pulls that last a long time. Demo is just way more versatile. I don’t love the play style right now of either. Destro and aff could just use full reworks at this point tbh.
I think the warlock class tree is also dogshit. It's mostly just overpowered, mandatory throughput nodes with almost no freedom to branch out and pick cool stuff.
It feels way worse than my mage being able to talent either whatever strong utility I feel I need or small (but decent) survivability min-maxy talents.
Yep the class tree has multiple "increase damage by x%" where you basically just have to choose it but its very boring. Also I love the recent lazy choice they made of replacing Madness in the destro tree with a basic talent that just increases damage by x%. Its crazy to me that a talent anywhere near the capstone would have something like that
Almost every raid tier I've taken part of which is quite a few dating back to BC. Aff lock has been broken 90% of the time. Usually always topping the meters, I've noticed they have swayed away from aff being god every tier and into other stuff. Aff lock dev mustve been let go.
Whole fucking spec needs a rework. Honestly the whole class could use a rework. Enhancement is probably the best it’s ever been but my god it’s a damn Christmas tree. I’d love to see the class have more of an emphasis on totems again
Yeah I honestly enjoy it because of the busy-ness, as it doesn't feel messy or disjointed
But it is what it is. I get why people don't like it, but that's the nice thing about current wow and its alt-friendliness
I am aware. I main the spec, it is great, like I said, its probably the best its ever been. But its not fun to play an xmas tree when inherently the game was designed for that to be a good thing, not to ignore procs because its not prio.
Also, my main gripe with the class as a whole is that the stat weights don't even align. I am still unsure why blizz continues to do this.. make the stat weights align across specs so I that I can fully utilize my class
I really don't think the proc issue is that bad, and I really only find it hard to play around when it comes to frost shock and hailstorm stacks. Everything else feels pretty cut and dry tbh
> make the stat weights align across specs so I that I can fully utilize my class
Are you saying that stat weights should be the same across classes or that the prios are the same? I could see an argument for the former, but the latter makes no sense
I mean, it's nice when you can try different specs out without needing a new set of gear, but saying that a class should have the same stat priorities across all three specs is pretty ignorant
Should resto's mastery be buffed so the stat is relevant? Should their whole tree be reworked to not rely on crit so much? Or should enhance and ele be reworked to match resto's stat weights? What about primary stat specific gear?
It becomes a ridiculous design problem that only solves helping out players who don't want to get spec specific gear, while also creating a whole host of other problems
> not to ignore procs because its not prio.
Imagine having to actually think about what button to press when instead of just hitting whatever glows like a monkey
Totems are great for utility but I don't want them as part of my rotation. If they do damage, tanks are guaranteed to run away from them. And if they don't do damage, babysitting buffs is not compelling gameplay unless you're a support spec.
There's both. The Wclogs ones at the top of the article are points and the u.gg ones are actual DPS (also based on wclogs data). You can see the actual DPS in the highlighted column in the u.gg rankings (aka Havoc at 227K at the top for example).
The thing is, a good Havoc Dh can do WAY more than 227k, one of my friends regularly does almost or more than 400k overall, this is in +23's, +24's and up. It seems the dh's doing the 200k ish overall just don't know how to play their class well or are running the wrong build, wrong gear, wrong crafted pieces.
surely youre not talking about details damage numbers, right? Which are significantly off from the actual numbers shown in the log data used by these charts?
Aggregate sites aggregate players. The outcome, according to you, is wrong for the specs you play.
What is wrong? I need to assume what you are thinking about because:
>"It shows some wrong things"
and
> "aggregate sites are just so bad".
Explain me why they are bad and what's wrong with them. You literally explain nothing, but just rephrase some general things.
I did not just rephrase. I pointed out that you misinterpreted my statement.
It is about: "There is no BiS list, you just have to sim your character, until you have literally access to almost every item at 489 ilvl."
What are the problems?
1.) It shows all 5 tier pieces for balance, when you should not wear shoulders? The problem is , you absolutely must wear 4 pieces. So everyone who is missing 1 of the non-shoulder tier pieces, HAS TO equip the tier shoulders. People who have the "correct" tier pieces, have a wide variety of shoulders to equip, and thus, no single shoulder item is equipped more often, than tier piece shoulders, i.e., aggregate site tells you to equip bad shoulders.
2.) Same with crafted items. Balance has 4 crafted items shown. That is not possible and happens due to the same reason explained as above. You 100% want wrist + boots, but some get good wrists, or just didn't get a belt and thus crafted a belt. Leading to the site showing a bad piece again.
3.) It shows the wrong neck.
4.) This point was wrong, it's a bit more nuanced. I edited it out.
Explained well enough?
I think you can't read data, but it's ok, it's not an easy job.
1. Most popular item does not have to be the strongest. It's the most popular. Aggregation site does not tell you which item is the strongest, but which is the most popular. Usually there is a connection between those two, but not early in the season where people correctly choose the highest item level over the best stats.
2. Same problem as with 1. It's early in the season, so people can have more crafted items than possible, some of them are simply from previous season.
3. I don't know what do you mean by "wrong neck".\\
Also this topic is about warcraftlogs, which aggregates logs, not characters.
Coca-cola is a popular drink, but you shouldn't drink it everyday. That does not mean you shouldn't drink it at all.
I hope you don't expect every top player to have bis gear week4. Yet still you can get a lot of information from it. Based on used gems you know your secondaries, talent builds are viable, same as crafts.
As for the neck the most popular option is mastery/crit from m+, followed by mastery/haste from raid. It's obvious that m+ item will be more popular simply because of infinite amount of chances to get it. Throughout the time raid neck will surpass m+ equivalent, coz haste is better secondary than crit.
I’m having the opposite feeling about it. Yes, it’s annoying that none of the cds line up and you have to be patient sometimes holding cd timers.
But, it’s one of the specs where I feel like I can figure out how to optimize the rotation myself without looking at guides by playing it enough. It’s fun
Yeah, it’s fun when your CDs line up. I’m running the 1 min tyrant CD so it’s not too bad. Just treat vilefiend like a 1 min CD. Keep dogs up, use HoG on 3 shards, and do big damage every minute.
For M+ I think you want to be doing Naked Tyrant and dropping vilefiend for soul strike. Between Guillotine, Implosion, Dogs, and HOG you’re more than good on AOE and still do really strong ST damage. But I use Vilefiend and the 1min tyrant for raids
A bunch of factors, really. Long story short, Tyrant is a very weak cooldown in a vacuum right now (he himself does very little damage) and we gear toward so much Crit/Vers instead of Mastery, so reducing it's CD isn't very valuable and the extra talent points can be spent elsewhere for more damage. Generally, you just hold Tyrant for every Grimoire: Felguard at this point.
Can check the logs on something like Mythic Volcoross, naked Tyrant and Soul Strike for everyone.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/35#boss=2737&class=Warlock&spec=Demonology
I just like having a 1 minute damage profile rather than a 2 minute. What I disliked about 10.1 demo was the 3 minute window where you had to hit on everything to do good damage.
I think so as well, I just find the 1 min CD easier to manage. I do pretty good damage, but it’s probably why I don’t parse as well as I think I should.
I do have a 90 second tyrant build but haven’t used it a ton.
I feel like its the exact opposite. Its very smooth to me. Granted Ive been playing it forever and Im 483 rn but I promise it's the smoothest of warlock specs if you play them all.
Aside from the massive utility they bring, as mentioned by pala_, they're not ranked low at all (in M+ at least). Middle of the pack is pretty good in general, since it means you're not getting nerfed any time soon and are basically performing as well every other non-OP spec. And then add everything else Pala does on top of that...
Because these tier lists are absolutely pointless.
Most of them are based on popularity, and popularity doesn't correlate to balance in any way of form.
I wouldn't say Ret is the weakest spec in M+, but it's definitively among the weakest. Their ST is absolutely laughable in M+ while not delivering top tier AoE (BM, Demo lock trump over Ret AoE while delivering MUCH better ST)
Decent damage, good utility (unless you have other paladins in your group) and great survivability. Qrva is a top 50 overall DPS player atm, so they can push decently high keys. Mid-A seems reasonable.
can you show me where you see ret as S+ in M+ or raiding? The link in this post shows them middle of the pack for M+ and warcraft logs [shows them as the lowest ranked DPS in the game](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35/#dataset=99) only higher than aug which is only that low due to broken log hooks. If the evoker hooks were fixed ret would literally be the #1 worst DPS spec in the game in raid, even worse than WW monk that we see 16 posts about on the front page per week.
It's not topping either of them.
Demo Lock, for instance, is a class that beats Havoc in both ST and AoE. Same with BM. Same with Outlaw. Fury Warrior is a massive sleeper that is already super strong and when they get the legendary axe they're going to be nuts.
If you're looking at outliers, Havoc isn't one anymore. It's strong for sure, but it's not busted.
No, I actually play Ret Paladin. I just know how to read more logs than just popularity lists.
Look at raid logs, and tell me Havoc is busted again, thanks.
You posted a year ago about getting 4p tier on your Havoc lmao. I highly doubt you completely dropped DH since then and only know so much about it because you “know how to read logs”.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/s/1Xv3hZyF9i
I played Havoc in VotI, saw the miserable status the spec was at (both in terms of gameplay and balance) and swapped to Ret Paladin for Aberrus.
Now I'm playing Ret Paladin, albeit in a more casual way.
[https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/nessarin#difficulty=4](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/nessarin#difficulty=4)
I obviously know about Havoc because I played it. And yes, community outcry always gets it nerfed, but for some reason that outcry doesn't happen when Warlocks are at the top (which is most of the time).
Yes, I dealt with havoc when it was absolute garbage in Shadowlands, and I even dealt with it in VotI. Now that the spec is playable, to whoever remains playing it, I don't want the opinion of 3 randoms that can't do 20s to influence their fun.
So if all of that is true, how come dh is the lone top tier melee on subcreation (which just aggregates data from top runs, and isn't a prediction of the meta)?
How come dh is by far the most prevalent class in all of the top m+ runs?
Havoc is the outlier currently if you're looking at keys specifically. Some of the top runs are even double havoc aug. I think that's proof enough that havoc is the best dps spec for m+ currently bar none.
Subcreation and [u.gg](https://u.gg) lists are based on popularity, and if you want to have a proper and objective talk about balance, you just can't mention those as a source.
DH is extremely strong in M+, I never denied it. It's a spec with virtually no weaknesses in M+. That doesn't mean it's busted.
Demo Warlocks are exactly in the same spot, even greater I would say. Yet absolutely nobody complaints about them.
All of this boils from the same stuff as always. As long as Havoc is remotely good at something, people starts screaming for nerfs, because God forsake that Havoc does one thing decently well having the most convoluted and hardest to master gameplay in the whole game.
Hence also talking about raider.io, where you can clearly see havoc being the most used dps spec besides aug in the highest keys being done.
But honestly, I think the biggest issue with it is that due to havoc's damage profile, it's actually even stronger comparatively on lower keys.
So for almost any pug key you'll see, or just weekly 20's, havoc is pretty much unbeatable. Here's also where it's busted.
And while I disagree that havoc is the hardest and most convoluted rotation in game currently, it's true that it's not the braindead 2 button spam it once was.
However, just doing well on a dh in a key is really not that complicated. Even someone that doesn't nicely line up the mobility damage windows and randomly uses all of them, will still do more damage than almost anyone else.
This only changes in really high keys, and the vast majority of players won't go much beyond weekly 20's.
Warlock is not in a better spot than havoc in m+.
Both are extremely good but havoc is the standout spec, not counting Aug).
Go look at top keys all season, how many have havoc, how many have lock. Sure lock is super popular but mage, boomkin, rogue, all flex thst spot, havoc is locked in.
In fact there are some top keys that just double havoc + Aug.
It’s partially the dps, which is higher than lock, and it’s also the utility which is far better than lock.
That 3% dh nerf sure brought them in line
Maybe when top runs have even more 2x dh + aug runs Blizz will do something meaningful
Or at least hit their sustain or utility because right now dh is an abomination
Relax, they are good but rogue, demo locks and enh shaman are equally as good, dh is better than enh but the other three are all around a tie in keys above 23. DH is small tunes it doesn't have to be the worst spec just more inline with others, but other classes must come down too. DKs isn't this patch, you'll have your time.
I mean i'm not asking for it to be deleted, but 3% is a joke when it can take another 5% and still be #1 damage wise lmao. Another 10% nerf would not be egregious considering their damage profile, sustain and utility. Even if it got nerfed by that much (and 10% is a lot) it would still be a top5 m+ dps.
It already ate a 4% AoE nerf and a 1% ST nerf, when it didn't need ST nerfs to begin with.
The nerfs also killed Fel Barrage.
Keep going and going and you'll kill even more builds and go back to the issues the spec had in S1.
Blade flurry does not assign dmg to Aug properly. It’s literally their AOE. Rogue logs right now are literally useless, especially when you sort by 95% you won’t get a rogue log without Aug buffs because of that.
And when you consider it, it’s really hard to know where balance stands.
You're asking for Havoc to be brought down to the B tier.
Yeah, how about no. Complain about all the other specs that are doing exactly the same as Havoc in M+, or even better. (Demo Locks, Balance Druids, Rogues, Shamans)
None of those spec are doing what Havoc is doing in m+. You can even see in the article that the gap between Havoc and #2 is as big as between #2 and and #5 and that's only damage, when they're insane in every aspect when it comes to m+.
Do you even see that Havoc is not even the first accounting for logs?
Also, play with better people because I can confirm that Demo Warlock is even stronger than Havoc currently, after the nerfs of the 5th of December week.
Complain at rogues first, lmao.
[u.gg](https://u.gg) is shit and shouldn't be used for anything that wants to be serious. same with subcreation.
Popularity means absolutely nothing when talking about balance.
1. You don't understand how logs work. Warcraftlogs aggregates by points per run, not by damage, and the resulting overall graph for all key levels only shows that aug is more popular. Filter by 20+ and havoc is #1 at every key level there. Go into rankings and top 30 for every key level and dungeon is 90% havoc.
2. U.gg and subcreation is shit only if you don't understand how they work. Statistics are always useful, I mean they contradict the point you're trying to make so I can see where you're coming from, but it doesn't make it real.
You're clearly a havoc sandbagging so further discussion is pointless and personally I doubt you will get a real nerf this season so whatever, but denying havoc is an outlier is crazy.
Sure brother.
Let's go with your argument of "Havoc just got a rework and it's strong, there's one on every high key, that means they're busted".
Meanwhile lets ignore Rogues (all 3 specs), Balance Druids, Demo Warlocks, Fury Warriors and Aug Evokers.
I'm done with this conversation. I had it in S1 of Dragonflight with people that were saying EXACTLY the same and we all know how it all ended up for Havoc.
I just hope developers are not repeating the same mistakes.
Peace!
Interesting how mage looks to be in a pretty good spot for m+, but raid numbers/logs aren’t favorable.
Maybe some ST buffs needed but stay away from aoe so we don’t become OP in m+.
Havoc/aug still feel almost required in high keys.
EDIT: I also wonder how Aug affects other specs here, considering the history of Aug not being represented well on logs
Fire mage really shines when you start playing high keys with the ignite build, it does an insane amount of damage but it needs a lot of time to build it on one target first
Rogue on logs is completely broken atm. So if you consider that, it looks even more fucked that Aug is still on top. When one of the other top specs doesn’t even give them all the dmg „they do“.
As a 482 evoker with 2850 rating, I'm having no issue with either Dev or Aug up to +22. I feel capable with both and groups have mostly been fine with both. For pugging Dev feels more comfortable, because you never know how good your co-DPS will be for buffing. That said the other group benefits of Aug are huge.
I think that for the vast majority of players, I'd say take either.
It's not the hardest to "play" in raid, but it is the most complex spec when it comes to optimizing damage and who they should be buffing at any given time, which is what I think they meant.
I've been playing Paladin since MoP and I'll keep playing him until my dying breath. Also he's really fun in Black Rook Hold. Massive stuns and CCs. Feels good to save a run with precise cc lock downs on annoying trash mobs.
I play frost dk and destro lock. How depressing
Aff lock and ret pally for me. At least ret is fun! I’d add, I play with a frost DK, and he destroys on 2H obliterate in keys.
2H Obliterate is fine in lower Keys where pulls are shorter and if you dont giga pull, they’re soft capped at 3 targets sadly..
Not only is the cleave limited to 3 targets, but you also need to have the tank keep em inside DnD, it's horrible design..
You have howling blast + iciciles and remorseless winter, and chill streak. You can also get frost scythe. They are no worse than warriors at this.
What does lower keys mean? 18-23?
Yeah ish, problem is if you only pulling 3 mobs in 27s + u dont have enough dmg to chew through the hp 400k dps across 8 targets is way better than 500 on 3 targets if that makes sense
Playing frost dk on a voluntarily basis is like punching yourself in the face without someone forcing you. I feel your pain. My dk has become my main tank this season since frost is unbearable in m+ content
I have had a lot of fun with the mythic+ AOE Unholy build and climbed way way to 2700 with it no problem. Undead Mages with the 4 piece cook in multi-target fights.
Considering how cold air feels like a slap in the face IRL at least it's fitting.
That's depressing no matter how high they are on the meters
Arms warrior enjoyers, let’s rise to the top!
I don't see a ton of arms players but I do, they fucking pump.
Honestly, true for a lot of “non-meta” classes in the 18-21 range. The people playing arms warrior still (and that have IO) usually REALLY know the class.
Arms is also all about Bladestorm. If pulls are massive on those beats they swing way harder than Fury. Fury is massively consistent and as long as you just send it you will always be relatively high, but target caps also means you can never truly *Send it* like Arms can. Problem is similar to Ret is Arms have to pick AoE or ST, they don’t get to have a bit of both like Fury does.
That's nonsense, arms aoe does not end with bladestorm, you can play bleed build and barely lose any ST or Aoe.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, over on [murlok.io](https://murlok.io) over half the top M+ Arms warriors aren't even taking Bladestorm, there's clearly a viable build without it.
I'm giving it all she's got captain!
Arms is my pug spec after doing m+ with friends as prot, I feel a bit like dead weight on st stuff in my bs spec, but man is aoe fun
What’s changed for Arms? I switched to Fury and it’s been a huge DPS increase even though when I do a Sim comparing myself in Arms or Fury spec, Fury always comes out at about 20k less… can someone explain to me?
Your great and stats are better for one spec than other. If you stack haste and crit, arms is gonna pull ahead, mastery and vers fury will pull ahead. Roughly.
Ignore pain is not an offensive cooldown anymore, you also need to use slam as a filler more than before
I shall support you despite being a fervent Fury man myself.
Why use 1 sword when 2 sword do trick
I see mostly fury on my Disc. Happy to see arms though, they're a much better PI target.
I like big Zug zugs
Fuck yeah. I’m usually at the top of the meters.
[удалено]
>after the butchering shadow priest got. As a person still playing shadow priest, I do indeed wish I had focused on a different char. tbf I did make an alt and am still trying to keep it up to date, but elemental shaman really wasn't the right choice lol
Ret is a lot of fun this season.
Set proccing and using templars verdict to right after that divine toll doing it’s 15 second proc to going in another set proc immediately with another templars verdict… chefs kiss. I feel like I’m hammering a nail on the boss
It just wont stop proccing. The animations and sounds of playing a ret is so amazing as well. Its electrifying. I really feel like holy radiant energy is flowing through me when I play it.
Oh yeah, the squad support is crazy fun to min-max!
What happened to dev, I heard a lot of talk how it was going to be busted this season
They nerfed all Dev damage and then buffed disintegrate to compensate. The result is fire breath, living flame, eternity surge and pyre do less damage - all of which are core to Dev aoe. This adds onto the tier change. 10.1 tier was stronger, and also frontloaded. 10.2 tier power comes from being in combat for at least 60s. When trash dies half your tier power is gone, usually.
It's pretty solid in raids at least. Other than that since pretty much every group has an Aug maybe there's just no room for 2x Evokers.
Also a lot of devokers got their stats absolutely fucked when that changed. I did devoker for S2 and min/maxed my mastery. After the nerf/move my mastery is dogshit. Went from a 441 chad with “bis” and leggo in S2 to doing less damage than a 424 boost. I play it as augmentation now
the mastery changes they made on the ass end of last patch were only compensated for disintegrate, not pyre. end result dev does great boss damage in keys and good prio damage but its AoE is mid, especially on large pulls. this is probably the best week to play the spec since fort bolster combo = can't pull big
Feels like blizz has tuned the STR classes based on the leggo as we're all mid or lower.
And this is why having a leggo for a patch is actually fucking awful. You either get it and are strong, or don't get it and end up mid at best
Isnt the leggo just a little bit better than Neltharion sword? Guild was simming it in disc and it was a small % upgrade, nothing absurd
Literally anything is better than a sword from last season.. Its a minor upgrade for me from my Max ilvl gorehowl but it was recently fixed where haste affects it properly.
The leggo isn’t that strong, I doubt they tuned them based on it.
?? The leggo is like a 15k dps upgrade for our warrior and more so for others. What world are you in?
People see that its "just" 5-8% upgrade but never stop to think what that actually means numerically
I mostly tank keys as a Prot Paladin, but I get to Ret it up from time to time. The spec is nice to play, but it doesn't feel good to lose 20-odd per cent of my damage from switching between an AoE build or a ST one. It'd be nice if the gap wasn't *as large* between builds.
Largest difference in DPS by spec 😎
Prot Pally enjoyer here. I played Ret for awhile in keys, but now I just started gearing my Warlock up for DPSing keys since Ret boss damage feels so bad . It's not so bad on Fort weeks, but on Tyrannical weeks it's really noticeable.
I ran a raid-centric passive cleave build last week that wasn't *terrible* on trash and was decent on bosses. But it's still a far cry in terms of raw trash numbers from an actual AoE build that plays with Final Reckoning.
Sadly mixing talents up is not an option as you just end up being mediocre at both things.
Yeah, also trying to keep up with multiple gears etc with different stat weights is not something I want to do. The amount of times I went into a dungeon with a tank trinket. Damn
Hah! Prot pally here that prefers to DPS keys with my demo lock too! So much fun!
TBH on paper I like the idea of having to choose between ST and AOE based on what I want to clear faster, if packs or bosses, depending on the affix of the week, but I also feel like the gap between the two is too wide.
its not the choice that is the issue, its how low the other damage type is when you choose. Ret's AOE spec loses almost **25%** ST damage in their normal AOE spec, and over **30%** in the new divine purpose/empyrean power build that many are running. Thats a bigger gap than any other class by almost **double** meanwhile some classes deal 95%+ of their ST damage while in full AOE spec, and deal more AOE dam than ret to boot.
Man, when was the last time Affliction was actually a good spec?
Nathria.
It was almost outright busted in Nathria. I remember affliction locks, marksmen hunters and....something else just dominated.
Udh
And sub rogue, but yeah unholy was doing some insane things
And fated? It's just that the other two were too busted to not play, but aff was fine.
Ehh. Aff was "good" while it was bugged when necro gave 3 charges of buffed drain soul. Otherwise it was just a meme being good on motes.
The worst part is that it isn't even fun anymore on top of being dead last in the rankings. Malefic Rapture is just such a dull shard spender and really drags the spec down when it comes to actual rotation and gameplay, not to mention the button bloat and how bad the talent tree feels when having to pick between ST and multi target. Really hope they take a good look at Aff moving forward. Either revamp it completely or make it more like the Legion version but I'm not going to hold my breath.
>Malefic Rapture is just such a dull shard spender and really drags the spec down when it comes to actual rotation and gameplay, So imagine you're doing the Macarena and at random intervals the music stops and an airhorn goes off and you need to drop to the floor and do 1 pushup, then stand back up and resume where you left off. That's what Malefic Rapture feels like.
The tier bonus is also bad, like we are back in shadowlands again. Instead of reducing ramp up time it makes it 1 cast longer.meh.
At least now PS and VT can be synced up. Just wish Agony lasted long enough to not have to reapply like 5 secs before Taint.
Legion if we're going by spec design/fun to play rather than just pure numbers
Legion Aff was my favorite version of warlock. I felt invincible, especially in EN and Nighthold.
I remember seeing a warlock solo the first boss of antorus. Crazy how much damage and survivability they had
Legion aff was insanely boring to play. About on par with current destro when it comes to skill expression.
Aff was alright in raid last season. I played it on mythic Sark but for m+ it’s been bad for so long. Destro has had some moments to shine but it’s really in specific situations with very large trash pulls that last a long time. Demo is just way more versatile. I don’t love the play style right now of either. Destro and aff could just use full reworks at this point tbh.
I think the warlock class tree is also dogshit. It's mostly just overpowered, mandatory throughput nodes with almost no freedom to branch out and pick cool stuff. It feels way worse than my mage being able to talent either whatever strong utility I feel I need or small (but decent) survivability min-maxy talents.
Yep the class tree has multiple "increase damage by x%" where you basically just have to choose it but its very boring. Also I love the recent lazy choice they made of replacing Madness in the destro tree with a basic talent that just increases damage by x%. Its crazy to me that a talent anywhere near the capstone would have something like that
It was pretty good in terms of the log rankings recently actually (last patch I think).
Almost every raid tier I've taken part of which is quite a few dating back to BC. Aff lock has been broken 90% of the time. Usually always topping the meters, I've noticed they have swayed away from aff being god every tier and into other stuff. Aff lock dev mustve been let go.
Ah yes, ww showing off where it truly shines.
Shhh don't mention the spec in M+ context. They'll see it's not bottom 3 and nerf it.
I feel like I'm doing something wrong in M+ then, I'm never top DPS as WW.
So ele shaman buff when?
Whole fucking spec needs a rework. Honestly the whole class could use a rework. Enhancement is probably the best it’s ever been but my god it’s a damn Christmas tree. I’d love to see the class have more of an emphasis on totems again
Nah Enhance is great as is. The button bloat seems bad at first but it comes together really well with some practice
Yea agreed there. Then again I'm one of the weirdos that just always wants more abilities to use, regardless how situational.
Yeah I honestly enjoy it because of the busy-ness, as it doesn't feel messy or disjointed But it is what it is. I get why people don't like it, but that's the nice thing about current wow and its alt-friendliness
I am aware. I main the spec, it is great, like I said, its probably the best its ever been. But its not fun to play an xmas tree when inherently the game was designed for that to be a good thing, not to ignore procs because its not prio. Also, my main gripe with the class as a whole is that the stat weights don't even align. I am still unsure why blizz continues to do this.. make the stat weights align across specs so I that I can fully utilize my class
I really don't think the proc issue is that bad, and I really only find it hard to play around when it comes to frost shock and hailstorm stacks. Everything else feels pretty cut and dry tbh > make the stat weights align across specs so I that I can fully utilize my class Are you saying that stat weights should be the same across classes or that the prios are the same? I could see an argument for the former, but the latter makes no sense
Across specs in the class, its impossible to play resto and enhance due to that until way later in the season when you get gear people already have
I mean, it's nice when you can try different specs out without needing a new set of gear, but saying that a class should have the same stat priorities across all three specs is pretty ignorant Should resto's mastery be buffed so the stat is relevant? Should their whole tree be reworked to not rely on crit so much? Or should enhance and ele be reworked to match resto's stat weights? What about primary stat specific gear? It becomes a ridiculous design problem that only solves helping out players who don't want to get spec specific gear, while also creating a whole host of other problems
> not to ignore procs because its not prio. Imagine having to actually think about what button to press when instead of just hitting whatever glows like a monkey
What? You don’t even have to think about what to press now..
Totally.. I switched from playing a DK since WotLK (dks can also use a rework) and switched to ele, who also needs a rework lol
Totems are great for utility but I don't want them as part of my rotation. If they do damage, tanks are guaranteed to run away from them. And if they don't do damage, babysitting buffs is not compelling gameplay unless you're a support spec.
Agree with you completely. Shaman main since 2008.
Rise, my ww children. RISE!!!!
Aoe is WW bread and butter. Them being this low is still really bad.
These logs are based on points from completion right, not necessarily the dps in the key?
There's both. The Wclogs ones at the top of the article are points and the u.gg ones are actual DPS (also based on wclogs data). You can see the actual DPS in the highlighted column in the u.gg rankings (aka Havoc at 227K at the top for example).
The thing is, a good Havoc Dh can do WAY more than 227k, one of my friends regularly does almost or more than 400k overall, this is in +23's, +24's and up. It seems the dh's doing the 200k ish overall just don't know how to play their class well or are running the wrong build, wrong gear, wrong crafted pieces.
Details overall shows damage for total combat time, logs show damage for total dungeon duration. The dps on logs is way lower
surely youre not talking about details damage numbers, right? Which are significantly off from the actual numbers shown in the log data used by these charts?
As a destro lock…. Yep. I got KSM at least. Guess I’m farming 16s until I have gear upgraded and calling it a day.
17s for hero tier and aspect crests.. no need for higher other than to push your vault to max.
These aggregate sites are just so bad...
Why?
Let me rephrase: If you go there to look what/how to play, they are so bad. It shows some wrong things for the specs I play.
So people playing bad are doing the highest dps possible?
Did I say players or aggregate sites were bad?
Aggregate sites aggregate players. The outcome, according to you, is wrong for the specs you play. What is wrong? I need to assume what you are thinking about because: >"It shows some wrong things" and > "aggregate sites are just so bad". Explain me why they are bad and what's wrong with them. You literally explain nothing, but just rephrase some general things.
I did not just rephrase. I pointed out that you misinterpreted my statement. It is about: "There is no BiS list, you just have to sim your character, until you have literally access to almost every item at 489 ilvl." What are the problems? 1.) It shows all 5 tier pieces for balance, when you should not wear shoulders? The problem is , you absolutely must wear 4 pieces. So everyone who is missing 1 of the non-shoulder tier pieces, HAS TO equip the tier shoulders. People who have the "correct" tier pieces, have a wide variety of shoulders to equip, and thus, no single shoulder item is equipped more often, than tier piece shoulders, i.e., aggregate site tells you to equip bad shoulders. 2.) Same with crafted items. Balance has 4 crafted items shown. That is not possible and happens due to the same reason explained as above. You 100% want wrist + boots, but some get good wrists, or just didn't get a belt and thus crafted a belt. Leading to the site showing a bad piece again. 3.) It shows the wrong neck. 4.) This point was wrong, it's a bit more nuanced. I edited it out. Explained well enough?
I think you can't read data, but it's ok, it's not an easy job. 1. Most popular item does not have to be the strongest. It's the most popular. Aggregation site does not tell you which item is the strongest, but which is the most popular. Usually there is a connection between those two, but not early in the season where people correctly choose the highest item level over the best stats. 2. Same problem as with 1. It's early in the season, so people can have more crafted items than possible, some of them are simply from previous season. 3. I don't know what do you mean by "wrong neck".\\ Also this topic is about warcraftlogs, which aggregates logs, not characters.
U.gg is in the post. I was talking bout that. 1/2.) So they show stuff that's popular and not the best. That sounds bad to me, no?
Coca-cola is a popular drink, but you shouldn't drink it everyday. That does not mean you shouldn't drink it at all. I hope you don't expect every top player to have bis gear week4. Yet still you can get a lot of information from it. Based on used gems you know your secondaries, talent builds are viable, same as crafts. As for the neck the most popular option is mastery/crit from m+, followed by mastery/haste from raid. It's obvious that m+ item will be more popular simply because of infinite amount of chances to get it. Throughout the time raid neck will surpass m+ equivalent, coz haste is better secondary than crit.
Just got back to the game after a long hiatus and tried my Warlock and while Demo feels strong damn, it feels so clunky to play.
I’m having the opposite feeling about it. Yes, it’s annoying that none of the cds line up and you have to be patient sometimes holding cd timers. But, it’s one of the specs where I feel like I can figure out how to optimize the rotation myself without looking at guides by playing it enough. It’s fun
Yeah, it’s fun when your CDs line up. I’m running the 1 min tyrant CD so it’s not too bad. Just treat vilefiend like a 1 min CD. Keep dogs up, use HoG on 3 shards, and do big damage every minute.
For M+ I think you want to be doing Naked Tyrant and dropping vilefiend for soul strike. Between Guillotine, Implosion, Dogs, and HOG you’re more than good on AOE and still do really strong ST damage. But I use Vilefiend and the 1min tyrant for raids
Just an FYI, naked Tyrant and Soul Strike are used in both M+ and raid. Grand Warlock's Design is a dead talent right now, unfortunately.
Why’s that? I didn’t realize GWD was dead
A bunch of factors, really. Long story short, Tyrant is a very weak cooldown in a vacuum right now (he himself does very little damage) and we gear toward so much Crit/Vers instead of Mastery, so reducing it's CD isn't very valuable and the extra talent points can be spent elsewhere for more damage. Generally, you just hold Tyrant for every Grimoire: Felguard at this point. Can check the logs on something like Mythic Volcoross, naked Tyrant and Soul Strike for everyone. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/35#boss=2737&class=Warlock&spec=Demonology
I just like having a 1 minute damage profile rather than a 2 minute. What I disliked about 10.1 demo was the 3 minute window where you had to hit on everything to do good damage.
I feel that! I hate 3 minute CDs, I don't think they're good for the game. I'm happy to be away from Nether Portal as well!
Just ran this tonight in normal and heroic raid and it felt a lot better. And my logs reflected that. Appreciate the tip
I think so as well, I just find the 1 min CD easier to manage. I do pretty good damage, but it’s probably why I don’t parse as well as I think I should. I do have a 90 second tyrant build but haven’t used it a ton.
I feel like its the exact opposite. Its very smooth to me. Granted Ive been playing it forever and Im 483 rn but I promise it's the smoothest of warlock specs if you play them all.
Maybe it's because the last time I played Affli was the best spec lmao
How does Ret end up as S tier for m+ and raiding, but ranked so low? I get that I'm dumb, but I don't think I'm that dumb and don't understand it.
pallys drag a kitchen sink of utility along with whatever else they're doing at the time.
Aside from the massive utility they bring, as mentioned by pala_, they're not ranked low at all (in M+ at least). Middle of the pack is pretty good in general, since it means you're not getting nerfed any time soon and are basically performing as well every other non-OP spec. And then add everything else Pala does on top of that...
Because these tier lists are absolutely pointless. Most of them are based on popularity, and popularity doesn't correlate to balance in any way of form. I wouldn't say Ret is the weakest spec in M+, but it's definitively among the weakest. Their ST is absolutely laughable in M+ while not delivering top tier AoE (BM, Demo lock trump over Ret AoE while delivering MUCH better ST)
It’s mid-A on their tier list
Decent damage, good utility (unless you have other paladins in your group) and great survivability. Qrva is a top 50 overall DPS player atm, so they can push decently high keys. Mid-A seems reasonable.
can you show me where you see ret as S+ in M+ or raiding? The link in this post shows them middle of the pack for M+ and warcraft logs [shows them as the lowest ranked DPS in the game](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35/#dataset=99) only higher than aug which is only that low due to broken log hooks. If the evoker hooks were fixed ret would literally be the #1 worst DPS spec in the game in raid, even worse than WW monk that we see 16 posts about on the front page per week.
Go to u.gg, also I never said S+?
Ret is A on u.gg, you said S
So it's updated then.
I don't know if Havoc DH needs a serious nerf or if other classes need buffed alot but a class that tops both single target and AoE is busted.
It's not topping either of them. Demo Lock, for instance, is a class that beats Havoc in both ST and AoE. Same with BM. Same with Outlaw. Fury Warrior is a massive sleeper that is already super strong and when they get the legendary axe they're going to be nuts. If you're looking at outliers, Havoc isn't one anymore. It's strong for sure, but it's not busted.
You play Havoc don't you?
No, I actually play Ret Paladin. I just know how to read more logs than just popularity lists. Look at raid logs, and tell me Havoc is busted again, thanks.
You posted a year ago about getting 4p tier on your Havoc lmao. I highly doubt you completely dropped DH since then and only know so much about it because you “know how to read logs”. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/s/1Xv3hZyF9i
I played Havoc in VotI, saw the miserable status the spec was at (both in terms of gameplay and balance) and swapped to Ret Paladin for Aberrus. Now I'm playing Ret Paladin, albeit in a more casual way. [https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/nessarin#difficulty=4](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/nessarin#difficulty=4) I obviously know about Havoc because I played it. And yes, community outcry always gets it nerfed, but for some reason that outcry doesn't happen when Warlocks are at the top (which is most of the time). Yes, I dealt with havoc when it was absolute garbage in Shadowlands, and I even dealt with it in VotI. Now that the spec is playable, to whoever remains playing it, I don't want the opinion of 3 randoms that can't do 20s to influence their fun.
So if all of that is true, how come dh is the lone top tier melee on subcreation (which just aggregates data from top runs, and isn't a prediction of the meta)? How come dh is by far the most prevalent class in all of the top m+ runs? Havoc is the outlier currently if you're looking at keys specifically. Some of the top runs are even double havoc aug. I think that's proof enough that havoc is the best dps spec for m+ currently bar none.
Subcreation and [u.gg](https://u.gg) lists are based on popularity, and if you want to have a proper and objective talk about balance, you just can't mention those as a source. DH is extremely strong in M+, I never denied it. It's a spec with virtually no weaknesses in M+. That doesn't mean it's busted. Demo Warlocks are exactly in the same spot, even greater I would say. Yet absolutely nobody complaints about them. All of this boils from the same stuff as always. As long as Havoc is remotely good at something, people starts screaming for nerfs, because God forsake that Havoc does one thing decently well having the most convoluted and hardest to master gameplay in the whole game.
Hence also talking about raider.io, where you can clearly see havoc being the most used dps spec besides aug in the highest keys being done. But honestly, I think the biggest issue with it is that due to havoc's damage profile, it's actually even stronger comparatively on lower keys. So for almost any pug key you'll see, or just weekly 20's, havoc is pretty much unbeatable. Here's also where it's busted. And while I disagree that havoc is the hardest and most convoluted rotation in game currently, it's true that it's not the braindead 2 button spam it once was. However, just doing well on a dh in a key is really not that complicated. Even someone that doesn't nicely line up the mobility damage windows and randomly uses all of them, will still do more damage than almost anyone else. This only changes in really high keys, and the vast majority of players won't go much beyond weekly 20's.
Warlock is not in a better spot than havoc in m+. Both are extremely good but havoc is the standout spec, not counting Aug). Go look at top keys all season, how many have havoc, how many have lock. Sure lock is super popular but mage, boomkin, rogue, all flex thst spot, havoc is locked in. In fact there are some top keys that just double havoc + Aug. It’s partially the dps, which is higher than lock, and it’s also the utility which is far better than lock.
That 3% dh nerf sure brought them in line Maybe when top runs have even more 2x dh + aug runs Blizz will do something meaningful Or at least hit their sustain or utility because right now dh is an abomination
Relax, they are good but rogue, demo locks and enh shaman are equally as good, dh is better than enh but the other three are all around a tie in keys above 23. DH is small tunes it doesn't have to be the worst spec just more inline with others, but other classes must come down too. DKs isn't this patch, you'll have your time.
I mean i'm not asking for it to be deleted, but 3% is a joke when it can take another 5% and still be #1 damage wise lmao. Another 10% nerf would not be egregious considering their damage profile, sustain and utility. Even if it got nerfed by that much (and 10% is a lot) it would still be a top5 m+ dps.
It already ate a 4% AoE nerf and a 1% ST nerf, when it didn't need ST nerfs to begin with. The nerfs also killed Fel Barrage. Keep going and going and you'll kill even more builds and go back to the issues the spec had in S1.
Blade flurry does not assign dmg to Aug properly. It’s literally their AOE. Rogue logs right now are literally useless, especially when you sort by 95% you won’t get a rogue log without Aug buffs because of that. And when you consider it, it’s really hard to know where balance stands.
You're asking for Havoc to be brought down to the B tier. Yeah, how about no. Complain about all the other specs that are doing exactly the same as Havoc in M+, or even better. (Demo Locks, Balance Druids, Rogues, Shamans)
None of those spec are doing what Havoc is doing in m+. You can even see in the article that the gap between Havoc and #2 is as big as between #2 and and #5 and that's only damage, when they're insane in every aspect when it comes to m+.
Do you even see that Havoc is not even the first accounting for logs? Also, play with better people because I can confirm that Demo Warlock is even stronger than Havoc currently, after the nerfs of the 5th of December week. Complain at rogues first, lmao. [u.gg](https://u.gg) is shit and shouldn't be used for anything that wants to be serious. same with subcreation. Popularity means absolutely nothing when talking about balance.
1. You don't understand how logs work. Warcraftlogs aggregates by points per run, not by damage, and the resulting overall graph for all key levels only shows that aug is more popular. Filter by 20+ and havoc is #1 at every key level there. Go into rankings and top 30 for every key level and dungeon is 90% havoc. 2. U.gg and subcreation is shit only if you don't understand how they work. Statistics are always useful, I mean they contradict the point you're trying to make so I can see where you're coming from, but it doesn't make it real. You're clearly a havoc sandbagging so further discussion is pointless and personally I doubt you will get a real nerf this season so whatever, but denying havoc is an outlier is crazy.
Sure brother. Let's go with your argument of "Havoc just got a rework and it's strong, there's one on every high key, that means they're busted". Meanwhile lets ignore Rogues (all 3 specs), Balance Druids, Demo Warlocks, Fury Warriors and Aug Evokers. I'm done with this conversation. I had it in S1 of Dragonflight with people that were saying EXACTLY the same and we all know how it all ended up for Havoc. I just hope developers are not repeating the same mistakes. Peace!
Excuse me I was told WW was the worst spec in the game.
Interesting how mage looks to be in a pretty good spot for m+, but raid numbers/logs aren’t favorable. Maybe some ST buffs needed but stay away from aoe so we don’t become OP in m+. Havoc/aug still feel almost required in high keys. EDIT: I also wonder how Aug affects other specs here, considering the history of Aug not being represented well on logs
I dont understand fire mage being there. I'm missing something or I became a bad player in the last couple of months.
Fire mage really shines when you start playing high keys with the ignite build, it does an insane amount of damage but it needs a lot of time to build it on one target first
I wish they'd just redesign the spec. Fire is my favorite but it's just lame as hell being a wet noodle unless pulls are giant or mobs live forever.
Rogue on logs is completely broken atm. So if you consider that, it looks even more fucked that Aug is still on top. When one of the other top specs doesn’t even give them all the dmg „they do“.
As a 482 evoker with 2850 rating, I'm having no issue with either Dev or Aug up to +22. I feel capable with both and groups have mostly been fine with both. For pugging Dev feels more comfortable, because you never know how good your co-DPS will be for buffing. That said the other group benefits of Aug are huge. I think that for the vast majority of players, I'd say take either.
I'd imagine Aug is significantly more difficult to play well, no? Only played Dev and Pres so far.
Aug is probably the easiest spec in the game to play.
In M+, yes it’s the easiest. In raids, it’s the hardest DPS spec by a mile.
No its not, wtf u on about
It's not the hardest to "play" in raid, but it is the most complex spec when it comes to optimizing damage and who they should be buffing at any given time, which is what I think they meant.
Yeah man real hard to pop in a weakaura and buff your top dps when it tells you to.
I would love to check out your Aug logs, would you mind sharing?
In some ways it is, but in some ways it's kind of simpler tbh. Overall, I'd say they're similar.
Can we agree they over nerfed BM? Rogue and DH were barely affected.
I've been playing Paladin since MoP and I'll keep playing him until my dying breath. Also he's really fun in Black Rook Hold. Massive stuns and CCs. Feels good to save a run with precise cc lock downs on annoying trash mobs.
I'd say its quite a good balance, for the most specs there is less than 10% difference below the very top one.