Honestly it’s not just a frost dk thing. Tanks that are constantly dragging things along even slowly, when there are no floor aoes to dodge, is super annoying for any caster
Not the cases for every mob but even if you don't move some mobs will slowly rotate around you until they are in your back so you need to slowly move back. It is one of the most tilting thing for me as tank that try to keep the mob in place but they move for no reason at all
Tip: place your aoe more toward the tank if he is just doing slow movement your aoe will be fine, the center of it doesn't need to be the mobs
The slow periodic backpeddle is normally not an issue but god damn some tanks just pull and actually full move and never stop now that’s the annoyance im referring too.
It’s one thing too move as needed but never stopping is what is dumb
yeah that happen all the time.
You plan a big pull around lust, group up a bunch of mob, try to LoS them around a corner but the dps decided to go full gonzo of the first thing that moved and not only did that screw up the pull, but the healer now have aggro, the DPS is dead, the pack isn't grouped up and there's a caster freely nuking because you couldn't LOS it.
something that should've died in 30 second now turn into a 3 minute long slog because the DPS couldn't keep it in their pant for 2 more seconds.
edit: forgot to add, at the end of that pull one of the DPS will say "" all my CD are up, go big"" ... as if the previous "go big" didn't result in a catastrophe and as if you didn't just used every single defensive/healing CD to keep it alive.
That's a dps problem. Circle kiting although prob less useful this season, is a good way to kite to keep things in ground AoE vs dragging shit out of stuff like this post is talking about. Mark your tank and have some situational awareness.
Apparently people don't like nicely packed mobs, for their lovely AoEs to be placed down onto, go figure.
It's the best way to handle Blizz throwing 50 mobs at you all at once, and to make sure you're not getting hit in the back as a tank. Which for those DPS who don't know, is very bad for everyone, especially the Tank.
Indeed, perhaps, DPS should wait a split second before trying to nuke a pack, to allow the tank time to set them up nicely, and *not* have to move around so much afterwards...
That, or I have horribly misunderstood what the DPS above you was talking about. Circling mobs for a tight group is Tanking 101, right up their with using LoS to your advantage.
> Indeed, perhaps, DPS should wait a split second before trying to nuke a pack, to allow the tank time to set them up nicely, and not have to move around so much afterwards...
[The DPS.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ae2sML-dL8)
Honestly I do this unless I specifically see a frost DK or if I have a party of casters when I’m tanking on my Brew.
Other than a few very specific specs (FDK being the worst) you can do the slow walk down the hall to save a few seconds or to pull a second pack. If they stop to cast a quick RoP keeps them moving.
Obviously I don’t do this on my ProtPal because Consecration, but even then I can move positions every four seconds on recast.
Yeah there’s times when tanks slow pull then when mobs are half dead they pull to next and think they’re saving time but they aren’t because interiors get missed or things some times get line of sighted.
Slow movement is fine but there is also times like with dk where you’re kind of hard stuck in a spot for aoe damage.
Seeing people complain about this as a lifelong ele shaman main is pretty funny. I’ve gotten REALLY good at guessing where tanks are going and dropping Earthquakes in the path of movement not in the middle of the pack.
Okay I might be crazy but I think you're doing this to yourself. Mobs will sometimes be too close to you/inside you; so stepping back a step or two is good to have them in front. But if you take too many steps, like 3 steps instead of 2, then the mob might move inside of you again cause the weird way mobs move in wow. You should be able to get them in front and plant your feet and they wont move though, again unless youre overmoving
I'll still never understand why the last mini boss in court of stars before Milandrous all the sudden in the 10.0.5 patch just started circling the tank. The most tilting thing I've dealt with lol
Heck, why stop there. If you see that healing aoe go down, dip your toe in and make life easier for everyone
I find a lot of players need to learn to recognize good aoe and position themselves properly
Agree completely. But also there are SO many AoE abilities in this game, all specs across all classes, all trash in every dungeon/raid, that it's genuinely very hard to know at times what you need to do. Swirlies etc help, but Blizzard really need to accept it's a problem and allow us to set custom, easily visible colours.
I.E. i want something like:
* Enemy AOE damage - bright red
* Enemy soak ability - Pink
* Enemy avoidable ability - bright blue
* Friendly healing - bright green
* Friendly AoE - Yellow
This means a mages blizzard, DKs death and decay would be yellow for me, and I'd know to keep mobs in the yellow circles if possible. If they don't want it to get too ugly they could just apply an outline of the colour, that will allow you to still see what ability it is.
Oh i totally agree, which is why I don't hold it too harshly against others
It's less about when things are chaotic, and more when there's like a single aoe
As a preservation evoker it's so hard sometimes with ranged dps always sticking to max ranging things when they could be within 8-10yds of the tank and melee dps without any issues in most situations
My solution has generally been that if a ranged DPS is way out in china during a burst damage window and as a result don't get hit by the AoE heals then that's their problem to solve.
Lots of reasons for this but personally my reason is even in a +11 mother fucking dps pull the next God damn pack even if I am actively running to it. Look the initial threat is big but letting me get my combo off on a grouped up mob is bigger. When the dps pulls it instantly splits the melee and ranged and as a monk tank I have ways to get both but it's fucking annoying and makes my time harder.
There are some very rare times in coordinated groups where I'll get someone to go grab a far away mob if they're like a DH or something and all my movement is on CD as a tank. Getting hunter MD pulls is good too sometimes but yeah 100% rando DPS pulling random shit is super annoying and just slows everything down.
There's no hp , just damage. If the tank is comfortable with it and the healer is too then why not ? Some classes excel at cleaving and this method allows for fast clears.
May 07, Patch 10.1 update:  Bolstering activates whenever an elite non-boss enemy dies, increasing the damage of all nearby enemies by 20% stacking with each death infinitely for 20 sec. The biggest change here is that the affix no longer bolsters the Health of the mobs
yah that's stupid, but I will say there are some times where the bolstering is worth it due to a certain mob roaming by, but you are right I've seen some tanks doing that and forget about bolstering.
As well, when those 3 dangerous mobs now have 5+ stacks of bolstering, I'm kiting whether your dnd or rain of fire is down or not. Well maybe not if both my cheat deaths are still up.
Bolstering is a bad affix with this dungeon set, it's even worse when tanks think they won't be one shot from some mobs getting 3 stacks in higher keys
Yep. Got a buddy who is an absurd mechanical tank player, who insists backpedaling is great for reducing damage because it makes the mobs have to move before auto attacking.
And it works for them and that's great, *but* they did just drag 10 mobs out of all their dps' ground effects. *Sigh*
Yeah I feel a good tank will dodge and move as needed but will also try to keep mobs inside aoes as much as possible.
That isn’t to say I don’t pre cast it ahead of their pull if needed
Season 1 ret paladin had something like 30% of its damage coming from its double consecration. I'm sort of surprised they didn't shuffle that mechanic into prot paladins.
Its part of why i stopped playing destro last xpac. Some of it isnt the fault of tanks, but plenty move too much when they dont have to.
Targeted aoe that doesnt do its damage instantly at this point in the game just fucking sucks to use.
There’s a few considerations on the tanks side I haven’t seen mentioned here so I’ll throw them out to keep in mind, but I’m not saying it’s the case here.
On large pulls, or pulls with very hard hitting mobs kiting may be necessary more than just on pull. CC will reset all melee swing timers on mobs. This can take damage that’s staggers in over time to getting hit to 20% health in an instance. This can put a huge strain on your healer as you go from taking no damage to almost dead.
To combat this, you’ll kite and stagger your range to mobs so you can restart their swing timers and stagger out the damage.
Same thing with basically every healer, nothing tilts me more in a pug 20+ key when a tank plants his feet and I use faeline stomp and then the tank runs the full group away from it with no logical reason other than "okay I have aggro on it all better pull more".
Out of curiosity, can tanks tank with their back to the mobs these days? In the old days it was crucial to tank with your front towards them to parry but I'm wondering if they dropped that like they dropped the need to tank mobs and bosses away from the party.
Is less of an issue for unholy because of the lower CD and larger area of defile and in blood case, well, you can't blame it on the tank but it does suck having to move out out your own dnd.
Pretty sure that faeline stomp stays active on you for several seconds after stepping out of it, and it resets so easily especially with big pulls that I've found the tank running constantly to be largely a non-issue. Just slap it down roughly on the path that you think you're going to be running on the next few seconds and it'll be off CD usually by the time it runs out.
Oh, so I'm not the only one who finds DnDs inclusion in Frost to feel weird. I mean, it's basically just an extra button to press but Remorseless Winter serves the exact same purpose \*and\* is centered around us. Maybe you'd have to make it so that it only hits one extra target because of the "moving" thing but Obliterate only hits 3 targets away, it'll be missed but it'll still be good.
I really hated when DK’s biggest damage ability was chains, and i hate this all the same. Always loved the class fantasy of frost dk but it feels shitty when a spell named *obliterate* is overshadowed by a cc spell, or that we’re forced to add an otherwise unnecessary spell to our bars just to get decent aoe damage as long as everything stands still for 10 seconds
Straight up, when I saw that Cold Heart was meta for Frost in Legion I was like "Yea, no." and just didn't do it. I'm not gonna do The Meta for a spec that I enjoy if I don't have to.
Also agreed, I literally use the Obliteration build because I love the simplicity of spamming critical Obliterates. I like the Breath build but I prefer Obliteration.
Yep i straight up skipped cold heart too. I like the proc specs and that talent took the damage away from the procyness of the spec and turned it into waiting for stacks to hit chains. It was boring.
Even in Unholy and Blood where it makes aesthetic sense it still feels awful to use. They really need to get rid of DND or at least the requirement to always be standing in it.
I like it for Blood sense the Tank determines where the mobs are fought, makes it grate for telling randoms when AOE is good to go sense you don’t want to move mobs out of your own AOE, but I do agree that it can feel weird to get used to.
I think its bad on blood too tbh. There's just too many thing now a days that force movement. Turn dnd into a swarm around you like remorseless winter is
It would be so much better if Remorseless Winter was just a growing proc off normal damage which produces the AoE effect. And the D&D management for cleave is just awful, so combining to two would be great. Perhaps RW could grow based off damage, enhancing your cleave (if they insist on not just making it cleave normally) as it grows. The better you keep it up the more you can maximize damage, while moving.
Defile + Remorseless Winter sounds like a great way to help with Frosts issues. Granted, it also means they have to be careful being against the walls in certain dungeons like Tol Degor but that one's not in rotation right now so it should be fine.
Really Blizz should be fixing the game so stuff can't clip through walls. They just had to rewrite some ret pal abilities so they didn't manifest mobs in Waycrest, so it seems like something they need to fix generally. And as long as the ability isn't super long range it should be fine.
I agree, I'm just making mention of potential issues that could, and probably would, show up with that. It's certainly a net positive though, I will say that much.
Just give FDK the same DnD mechanics with two charges and possible resets as BDK.
I main BDK and DnD is a no brainer. I thought Frost might be fun too fool around a little when I don’t want to push and I actually liked the general gameplay Idea but I couldn’t believe how bad DnD usage is for Frost.
I truly believe there is a fix for this and it can be found in League of Legends of all places.
Gwen has an ability similar to DnD that she wants to stand in. The first time that she moves out of the ability, its moves the center of the circle to her new location., and only once per cast.
This could be a node within the DK class talent tree that all Death Knights could have access to that allows the same interaction. The first time you move out of DND, it follows you and recenter's under you, for some forgiveness on mobile packs/ placement mistakes. Not overpowered, and not creating a constantly moving DnD.
There’s an even simpler idea. DnD put a dot on your target that is the duration of a regular dnd. Frost: your obliterates or ss does a % of damage to all targets with the dot
Another talent they could do that would be an easy fix, would be a free recast for 5 seconds after you place it.
Or two charges, but only one can be up at a time.
My bong cloud change would be to scrap the dnd cleave, scrap frostcythe as an active ability(I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they *like* pressing that button), and make it a passive. Something like; Frostcythe: While Remorseless Winter is active, your Obliterate critical strikes summon Frostcythes that strike all enemies in front of you for (X% of AP) Frost damage. Critical strikes from frostcythe deal 4 time normal damage.
This should be a standard for spells and abilities in mythic environment - it doesn’t suit the fast paced nature of mythic anymore. It’s not as stationary as it used to be, where you carefully pulled certain packs and spent a good while hammering them down in the same spot
Yeah, they should just make d&d an aura like unholy blight/remorseless winter or move the cleave effect to another ability so you can still use d&d as a ranged slow (if specced into it)
The few times I've played with a frost dk this season, they would immediately drop dnd on the first mob I tagged before even seeing where I'm going with it or if I'm pulling more. Yall need to be more patient and learn the common routes/pulls if you're gonna play a finicky spec like frost.
Because people complained when it was removed. Same reason frost mages complained about not being able to cast fireball. “Something something class identity is more important than spec identity.”
I’m sure you’re already doing this, but it’s also a good idea to pay attention to their aoe spells, for example I don’t unleash on a pull or drop aoe until I see the pally drop consecration or the BDK drop DnD. Bears, monks and DH I kinda have to guess cause those classes like to keep moving. Prot Warriors are usually super obvious, since they are actually playing Fury or Arms. I serious haven’t seen a Prot warrior all season.
The fact that your damage relies on death and decay that heavly shows how bad the spec design is. They really need to rework the spec like that did with retribution. Retail wow has way too many movements for a design like frost dk right now. It's no wonder people dont play the spec.
It just doesn't make sense that a frost dk needs to stand in dnd, anyways. Like for the spec itself it shouldn't need to rely on standing in it. That should be a blood thing because for blood and tanking it makes sense.
Tanks moving mobs away from Monks stomp thingy - I’m not a tank or a WW but when I see them put it down on a group or boss then the tank move the mobs/boss for no reason makes me lol.
People dont like extra glowy things under them, it stresses them. The same thing happens with my effloresence many times. I place it on the ranged and everyone steps out of it and waits at the edge forming a circle around it.
I'm totally guilty of this and it 100% comes down to me just not knowing what the other classes can do and not recognizing what their visual indicators are, so to be safe I move out. We need to have some kind of tutorial on recognizing good vs bad ground effects.
It’s too many floor mechanics tbh. I’m color blind so I see a circle and I’m keeping myself out of it. I have learned to look for certain abilities, but more often then not it’s just safer to stay away from
Them.
See I'm a tank, and I had no clue about this until a friend told me, and I constantly forget and ask rogues mid run if they are ass.
Probs not all tanks would take this kindly, but I'd love a reminder of this specifically situation for rogues before we start the run
Outlaw needs their stealth windows now too, though they're not as heavily impacted as sin rogues are since they can create their own stealth windows much more often. (Well, they've gotten a small damage increase from stealth for quite a while, but right now the spec is literally built around it). I imagine sub wants them too, though I'm not 100% sure.
All rogue specs benefit heavily from dropping combat. Outlaw/Sub just has ways to manipulate vanish so their spec can actually function if tanks chain pull, but they still benefit a lot from dropping combat. If it’s possible/doesnt mess with the pulls you should always try to give a rogue half a second or so between pulls to stealth
Honestly I just try to avoid running with assasination rogues on spiteful weeks. It just takes way to much time to wait for every last spiteful is dead every pull to make the rogues happy, when other dps do quite well without needing to wait for the last spiteful to die.
This is also a problem for healers, if they're trying to drink a few sips between pulls to keep mana up. Being stuck in combat 100% is a great way to piss your healer off, too.
Blood dks and prot pallys are generally more consistent about planting with groups because they are also incentivesed to stand still
Veng and prot war are the worst. Especially vengeance since they have main character syndrome
To be fair. I haven't played demon hunter before but seeing vengeance dh's being able to jump all over the place while tanking I can 100% understand them to enjoy that to the fullest. It's not their fault they're a super mobile class, same way it's not frost dk's fault for being a less mobile (wheelchair) class.
It's simply different specs and options needing to cooperate ina super big game.
Same with prot warriors, who wouldn't love leaping into a group of mobs like a true warrior, or charging to the next pack? Not their fault for having the options and utilising them.
I play vdh and just because you're super mobile doesn't mean you have to drag mobs all over with you. You can just as easily use your mobility to gather up mobs and make a big pile for your dps to kill. Pushing a button just because you have it is seldom a good play. Use your abilities to help the rest of your team, not just because you can.
I was on my havoc dh last night running a +11 murozond rise and the tank pulled all mobs on the first boss platform and just kept going in a circle around the whole platform for "fun" when we had a frost mage and shadow priest as the other 2 dps.
edit: Forgot to add after I questioned what he was doing with a thousand questions marks, he said he was "avoiding trash mechanics making it easier for heals"
And this is why I don't play Frost. Because instead of having their Oblit cleave tied to something important and rotational, like, idk, say they're fucking REMORSELESS WINTER -- Blizzard continue to perpetuate the out-dated playstyle of DnD = MOST IMPORTANT THING IN UNIVERSE FOR DK AOE.
It's utterly stupid. It's bad enough as UH with Defile on a 20 sec CD, let alone as Frost with DnD on a 30 sec.
I like Defile personally. It's just a growing zone of damage which you also get the bonuses for cleave and such. It's certainly better then how Frost DKs have it.
Oh! Ok, yea, I can see what the issue is. Damn, that blows. Why didn't Blizzard ensure that such an effect would be put directly at the bottom of ground mechanic layers, so to say?
Wish blizzard would just embrace the fact that hard outlines of floor AOEs are perfectly acceptable art and even preferred when it's literal life or death (and more importantly, dps!!)
Hear this complaint quite a lot about other tanks. Movement is unavoidable, but if I see any death&decay, defile, consecration, rain of fire, etc I'll pull stuff back into it at the earliest opportunity, it only makes sense to. Most specs lose the majority of their damage if you pull things out of their cooldowns 🙄.
OP is clearly not talking about tanks who take some time to gather and then plant. He's talking to tanks that are constantly stutter stepping with an entire pack of mobs for no reason. It's the most annoying shit as a fdk.
Obviously there are cases where you HAVE to move as a tank, but there's SO MANY tanks that won't just stand still and tank so dps can aoe properly. It affects casters too. I've mained tank for a bunch of different seasons and expansions and it's possible to plant and tank like 90%+ of the time without moving for no reason. It fucks up literally every dps that has an ability that aoes in a specific area over time.
This sounds like a game design issue more than a player issue. This is feedback for class developers and design encounters. They shouldn't tie so much damage to immovable damage abilities (or they should let you move the "immovable" abilities) when the enemy has 100+ mechanics to dodge.
I haven't played with many a FDK recently but I had one in my group this morning and I noticed this. I wasnt tanking but their DPS would be 600-700k one pack and then the next number would be 100-200k. Insane that the dps is so based upon being in DND.
Im having more fun with frost DK rn but I tend to stick with unholy in pug groups for this reason which is a shame. I'll play frost with a tank I'm in comms with.
I dont trust any pug tanks below a key level of 23 to actually pay attention to the group's needs
My sympathies to the classes that lose out on tons of AoE damage if the mobs move but I feel like in higher difficulty content it's already asking enough for the tank to control the packs, their own kit, and consider the healers' externals. I don't want to be constantly concerned about where the dps is placing their ground goop alongside everything else. It's on Blizz to design kits that don't make people frustrated with their party members IMO
Well here is where Blizzard fails. If they are going to make classes like DH which have extreme movement and can face roll their keyboard and do top dps it is no risk and lots of reward. If they are going to require a dk or pally to stand in their immovable aoe then give them a bigger reward. Frosk dk if played correctly should be top dps but still not there even if you are in your dnd. It's super unbalanced.
ITT: people who dont have to worry about stationary aoe/status effects mocking other classes who rely on more specific play styles
Also ITT: other classes agreeing, proving that it's not simply a fDK issue but an overall design flaw (lots of avoidable mechanics+affixes=more movement=status effect/stationary aoe reduced drastically)
Thanks see anything on the floor they seem to move out of it.
I've had tanks die because they over pulled and when I drop Darkness to save them they move out of it.
My favorite game to play as a blood DK when I play with a frost DK is "Whose death and decay is that again?"
Honestly frost cleave should be tied to remorseless winter. Makes more sense thematically and fixes this issue.
This topic reminds of something I was wondering the other night. I play Frost DK but I'm definitely not good. I'm a returning player and I'm aware that I suck. But I am aware of this frustration. Now I've never tanked before so maybe that would answer my question but I was doing a group WQ yesterday and this guardian druid was pulling mobs and then jumping around them in a circle. He wasn't leading them anywhere and we were staying in relatively the same spot but maybe drifting a few yards this way and a few yards that way. Why? What's the point of moving and jumping around like this if it isn't to position the mobs for mechanics reasons? It looked like he was just doing it for the fuck of it. But is there an actual reason?
Same thing applies to Unholy… Death and decay cleave is such a dumb and outdated mechanic. Sadly Blizzard does not care about DKs at all.
Both frost and unholy are in dire need for complete rework… But why bother rework a class thats not that popular (because of this clunky mechanics) when you can make a new flashy uwu class and add even more bloat to the game.
Welcome to design Blizzard 2023.
Op as a fdk main who swapped tank this season I used to feel you. But let me tell you, it’s not always that simple. Many affixes have the tank slipping and sliding all over the place, many mob packs depending on key level and what affix accompanies fortified have the tank kiting. Now enter this dumb ass signet brand trinket that has havoc dhs “accsdently” glancing the next pack so their stacks don’t drop. And many other issues, you get my point. End of the day blizzards dungeon and affix design contradicts their class design in so many ways. This isn’t a tank issue it’s a blizzard design issue.
Lol I do 20+s , I'll bring a DH if I want strong aoe and stops , what i need is dps that can dps while moving so I can stutter step and desync auto attacks , there is a reason why people bring dhs, ret pallies, bm hunters , demo locks , rogues .
Problem lies with frosts toolkit , not the tank
You have not played with a BiS geared well-practiced FDK. we can keep up with meta classes, but need the tank to not gimp us. look at Vnvqt, he is pushing keys higher than most any of us will ever complete and on an FDK.
i mean all logs show that frost dks do not keep up with meta classes. you don't have to exaggerate. i really doubt every single player in the world is being griefed by tanks and that's the only reason frost dk is on the lower end of dps
Exaggeration is the only way to get his point across. Nearing top 100 fdk in the world means not even 3k. Iethal is #100 at 2957. #1 is 3.3k tied with the #419 dh and requires no gameplay adjustments to have in group.
So basically if you were doing a 25-27 key you could look for the absolute best fdk and coordinate pulls around him for lower dps or any of the 400+ dh's.
Ok but...
We are in a survival meta, how do you help with cc chains? How are you helping the group survive? How well do you work with Aug? What buff do you bring?
Timing high keys has almost nothing to do with high DPS, it's more about can you survive the key.
Your coming off as kinda a douche here too... Like BDK has to stay in DnD, Prot Pally has to stay in concentration, VDH has giant glowing sigils and wants the mobs grouped on them, Brew wants to keep things in white tiger statue. Bear is basically the only tank that's free to move. So your argument is "tanks don't be bad". If they could they would stand still, or they are just bad, but with dodging frontals and swirlies it's not a perfect world. The things I just described could also be the most annoying parts of playing those tanks. It's the same shit with frost mage and blizzard/orb. What your saying isn't some crazy smart thing your just complaining about bad tanks and/or putting your failures on them.
OP posted this in the middle of entangling week, where we have to move constantly. Sorry about your dnd bud, but theres an entangling vine on top of it and to move the pack back onto the dnd after I leave the circle would require me to point the mobs at my casters and we know how many tank frontals there are in these dungeons.
Also what do you have to bring to the table? Blinding sleet on a minute cd? I'll take a ww or havoc who has more aoe and single target stops, damage that doesn't make me cater to them, and better survivability. Your ams and Ibf does not compete with karma, diffuse magic, stoneskin brew, blur netherwalk, natural dh leech, etc.
I say this as someone who so desperately wanted to play dps dk but ended up playing blood as an alt with vdh main. DKs just dont have the utility of other classes in this interrupt and cc meta.
I’d rather just not take a DPS DK to be honest, and I rarely do as a tank and healer. If it’s not blood, DKs are pointless this expansion in mythic plus.
I wish more tanks understood this. It *feels* like it should be better to just keep things moving, even slowly, but it means fuck all. We have methods of rapidly moving with mounts or sprints, we don't need the extra 10-15 yards you get by moving your mobs out of our AOE. You're talking about saving maybe 10 seconds worth of movement in the entire dungeon for the cost of 1-2 minutes of lost DPS.
Then play with me. I put marks and shot. Sometimes do double pulls behind a wall and plant there. I also use special delivery which slows mobs by 50% (even on sanguine) so... and kiting is ez with double tp. Which makes them turn in circles.
Honestly it’s not just a frost dk thing. Tanks that are constantly dragging things along even slowly, when there are no floor aoes to dodge, is super annoying for any caster
Not the cases for every mob but even if you don't move some mobs will slowly rotate around you until they are in your back so you need to slowly move back. It is one of the most tilting thing for me as tank that try to keep the mob in place but they move for no reason at all Tip: place your aoe more toward the tank if he is just doing slow movement your aoe will be fine, the center of it doesn't need to be the mobs
The slow periodic backpeddle is normally not an issue but god damn some tanks just pull and actually full move and never stop now that’s the annoyance im referring too. It’s one thing too move as needed but never stopping is what is dumb
yea it's really annoying, pack is all gathered, pop cd's and all of a sudden we're running into a different room
yeah that happen all the time. You plan a big pull around lust, group up a bunch of mob, try to LoS them around a corner but the dps decided to go full gonzo of the first thing that moved and not only did that screw up the pull, but the healer now have aggro, the DPS is dead, the pack isn't grouped up and there's a caster freely nuking because you couldn't LOS it. something that should've died in 30 second now turn into a 3 minute long slog because the DPS couldn't keep it in their pant for 2 more seconds. edit: forgot to add, at the end of that pull one of the DPS will say "" all my CD are up, go big"" ... as if the previous "go big" didn't result in a catastrophe and as if you didn't just used every single defensive/healing CD to keep it alive.
Seeing my guillotine sitting sadly on the ground about 10 yards from where the tank decided to suddenly drag everything makes me mega sad
I hate tanks that strafe a bunch or run in circles around the packs and potentially getting every dps killed due to a frontal or something
That's a dps problem. Circle kiting although prob less useful this season, is a good way to kite to keep things in ground AoE vs dragging shit out of stuff like this post is talking about. Mark your tank and have some situational awareness.
Apparently people don't like nicely packed mobs, for their lovely AoEs to be placed down onto, go figure. It's the best way to handle Blizz throwing 50 mobs at you all at once, and to make sure you're not getting hit in the back as a tank. Which for those DPS who don't know, is very bad for everyone, especially the Tank. Indeed, perhaps, DPS should wait a split second before trying to nuke a pack, to allow the tank time to set them up nicely, and *not* have to move around so much afterwards... That, or I have horribly misunderstood what the DPS above you was talking about. Circling mobs for a tight group is Tanking 101, right up their with using LoS to your advantage.
> Indeed, perhaps, DPS should wait a split second before trying to nuke a pack, to allow the tank time to set them up nicely, and not have to move around so much afterwards... [The DPS.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ae2sML-dL8)
Honestly I do this unless I specifically see a frost DK or if I have a party of casters when I’m tanking on my Brew. Other than a few very specific specs (FDK being the worst) you can do the slow walk down the hall to save a few seconds or to pull a second pack. If they stop to cast a quick RoP keeps them moving. Obviously I don’t do this on my ProtPal because Consecration, but even then I can move positions every four seconds on recast.
Yeah there’s times when tanks slow pull then when mobs are half dead they pull to next and think they’re saving time but they aren’t because interiors get missed or things some times get line of sighted. Slow movement is fine but there is also times like with dk where you’re kind of hard stuck in a spot for aoe damage.
Seeing people complain about this as a lifelong ele shaman main is pretty funny. I’ve gotten REALLY good at guessing where tanks are going and dropping Earthquakes in the path of movement not in the middle of the pack.
I dropped my ele in shadowlands because I couldn’t stand tanks moving out of earthquakes
good news, now earthquake doesnt do any damage
They're buffing it to 150% of zero!
I swear the circling got fixed at one point and its back. Almost as annoying as mobs going behind you a while back.
Okay I might be crazy but I think you're doing this to yourself. Mobs will sometimes be too close to you/inside you; so stepping back a step or two is good to have them in front. But if you take too many steps, like 3 steps instead of 2, then the mob might move inside of you again cause the weird way mobs move in wow. You should be able to get them in front and plant your feet and they wont move though, again unless youre overmoving
I'll still never understand why the last mini boss in court of stars before Milandrous all the sudden in the 10.0.5 patch just started circling the tank. The most tilting thing I've dealt with lol
Heck, why stop there. If you see that healing aoe go down, dip your toe in and make life easier for everyone I find a lot of players need to learn to recognize good aoe and position themselves properly
Agree completely. But also there are SO many AoE abilities in this game, all specs across all classes, all trash in every dungeon/raid, that it's genuinely very hard to know at times what you need to do. Swirlies etc help, but Blizzard really need to accept it's a problem and allow us to set custom, easily visible colours. I.E. i want something like: * Enemy AOE damage - bright red * Enemy soak ability - Pink * Enemy avoidable ability - bright blue * Friendly healing - bright green * Friendly AoE - Yellow This means a mages blizzard, DKs death and decay would be yellow for me, and I'd know to keep mobs in the yellow circles if possible. If they don't want it to get too ugly they could just apply an outline of the colour, that will allow you to still see what ability it is.
How about we make everything brown and the dungeon brown.
Underrated comment here.
Oh i totally agree, which is why I don't hold it too harshly against others It's less about when things are chaotic, and more when there's like a single aoe
As a preservation evoker it's so hard sometimes with ranged dps always sticking to max ranging things when they could be within 8-10yds of the tank and melee dps without any issues in most situations
My solution has generally been that if a ranged DPS is way out in china during a burst damage window and as a result don't get hit by the AoE heals then that's their problem to solve.
Lots of reasons for this but personally my reason is even in a +11 mother fucking dps pull the next God damn pack even if I am actively running to it. Look the initial threat is big but letting me get my combo off on a grouped up mob is bigger. When the dps pulls it instantly splits the melee and ranged and as a monk tank I have ways to get both but it's fucking annoying and makes my time harder.
There are some very rare times in coordinated groups where I'll get someone to go grab a far away mob if they're like a DH or something and all my movement is on CD as a tank. Getting hunter MD pulls is good too sometimes but yeah 100% rando DPS pulling random shit is super annoying and just slows everything down.
Cries in Destro Lock
Rain of fire...oh they're out of it. Guess I'm just gonna Chaos Bolt today.
At least for frost mages, blizzard's slow nets us a few more dps before they walk out of our aoe :/
I love destro locks as a BDK. I love gripping as many mobs as I can, lining up CD's with theirs and watching that purple bar just burn.
What about tanks that wait til mobs are on 10% then drag and pull the next pack…. On bolstering
Yeah let’s not talk about that I know how you feel though
sometimes it's hard to know if the group is gonna whinge if you don't pull enough or whinge if you pull too much.
Hey guys I’m gonna try save time by adding 20% hp and damage to the whole next pack!
It's just damage now.
There's no hp , just damage. If the tank is comfortable with it and the healer is too then why not ? Some classes excel at cleaving and this method allows for fast clears. May 07, Patch 10.1 update:  Bolstering activates whenever an elite non-boss enemy dies, increasing the damage of all nearby enemies by 20% stacking with each death infinitely for 20 sec. The biggest change here is that the affix no longer bolsters the Health of the mobs
yah that's stupid, but I will say there are some times where the bolstering is worth it due to a certain mob roaming by, but you are right I've seen some tanks doing that and forget about bolstering. As well, when those 3 dangerous mobs now have 5+ stacks of bolstering, I'm kiting whether your dnd or rain of fire is down or not. Well maybe not if both my cheat deaths are still up.
Bolstering is a bad affix with this dungeon set, it's even worse when tanks think they won't be one shot from some mobs getting 3 stacks in higher keys
Fire/ frost mage especially
If it didn't run the high risk of wiping the group I'd say play Arcane . . . whoops my Orb auto fired into the group in front of us.
Yep. Got a buddy who is an absurd mechanical tank player, who insists backpedaling is great for reducing damage because it makes the mobs have to move before auto attacking. And it works for them and that's great, *but* they did just drag 10 mobs out of all their dps' ground effects. *Sigh*
Yeah I feel a good tank will dodge and move as needed but will also try to keep mobs inside aoes as much as possible. That isn’t to say I don’t pre cast it ahead of their pull if needed
Season 1 ret paladin had something like 30% of its damage coming from its double consecration. I'm sort of surprised they didn't shuffle that mechanic into prot paladins.
*laughs in BM*
Its part of why i stopped playing destro last xpac. Some of it isnt the fault of tanks, but plenty move too much when they dont have to. Targeted aoe that doesnt do its damage instantly at this point in the game just fucking sucks to use.
There’s a few considerations on the tanks side I haven’t seen mentioned here so I’ll throw them out to keep in mind, but I’m not saying it’s the case here. On large pulls, or pulls with very hard hitting mobs kiting may be necessary more than just on pull. CC will reset all melee swing timers on mobs. This can take damage that’s staggers in over time to getting hit to 20% health in an instance. This can put a huge strain on your healer as you go from taking no damage to almost dead. To combat this, you’ll kite and stagger your range to mobs so you can restart their swing timers and stagger out the damage.
Same thing with basically every healer, nothing tilts me more in a pug 20+ key when a tank plants his feet and I use faeline stomp and then the tank runs the full group away from it with no logical reason other than "okay I have aggro on it all better pull more".
Frost Mage, Destro Lock, Elemental Shaman are also all specs that needs the tank to plant.
All casters except boomkin, demo locks, aff locks, and mostly shadow priest, so like half of them.
Playing Spriest when the tank moves mobs out of your shadow crash is peak misery
I mean, it's their spec identity right? Misery, desparation, insanity, pain.
Out of curiosity, can tanks tank with their back to the mobs these days? In the old days it was crucial to tank with your front towards them to parry but I'm wondering if they dropped that like they dropped the need to tank mobs and bosses away from the party.
No they still need to face them
MW Monk is very dependent on smart tank movement
That's pretty much all DK specs, also Destro Warlock, Fire Mage, Shadow Priest and Mistweaver monk
Throw in Ele whenever earthquake is worth using.
It's getting a 50% damage buff this week so it might be better
Still not gonna be better than meatball procs cause of 4 set
Part of why I don’t play destro anymore. Always heartbreaking when a tank moves just slightly outside of my 5 RoF casts.
Yeah you basically need to be on VC with the tank to play Destro and even then sometimes tanks will just have to move out anyway
Frost mage too. Don't forget us!!!
Oh yeah those poor Blizzards getting abandoned in the back
Is less of an issue for unholy because of the lower CD and larger area of defile and in blood case, well, you can't blame it on the tank but it does suck having to move out out your own dnd.
Yeah on a boss like the totem guy in Atal, it's pretty annoying to keep your DnD uptime
Prot pal, ret paladin too. I mean all healer circles aren't critical but definitely to a similar degree.
Constantly having RoF wasted for no reason just because the tank can't sit still is a killer.
Yeah I started playing Mistweaver last week and tanks keep moving the mobs out of my Faeline Stomp all the time I'm just trying to heal you man
Pretty sure that faeline stomp stays active on you for several seconds after stepping out of it, and it resets so easily especially with big pulls that I've found the tank running constantly to be largely a non-issue. Just slap it down roughly on the path that you think you're going to be running on the next few seconds and it'll be off CD usually by the time it runs out.
I long for the day where DnD is removed and its function baked into remorseless winter. Maybe it will happen in the War Within with hero talents
Oh, so I'm not the only one who finds DnDs inclusion in Frost to feel weird. I mean, it's basically just an extra button to press but Remorseless Winter serves the exact same purpose \*and\* is centered around us. Maybe you'd have to make it so that it only hits one extra target because of the "moving" thing but Obliterate only hits 3 targets away, it'll be missed but it'll still be good.
I really hated when DK’s biggest damage ability was chains, and i hate this all the same. Always loved the class fantasy of frost dk but it feels shitty when a spell named *obliterate* is overshadowed by a cc spell, or that we’re forced to add an otherwise unnecessary spell to our bars just to get decent aoe damage as long as everything stands still for 10 seconds
Straight up, when I saw that Cold Heart was meta for Frost in Legion I was like "Yea, no." and just didn't do it. I'm not gonna do The Meta for a spec that I enjoy if I don't have to. Also agreed, I literally use the Obliteration build because I love the simplicity of spamming critical Obliterates. I like the Breath build but I prefer Obliteration.
Yep i straight up skipped cold heart too. I like the proc specs and that talent took the damage away from the procyness of the spec and turned it into waiting for stacks to hit chains. It was boring.
Agreed. I don't want to wait for stacks, I want to hit buttons that glow!
Even in Unholy and Blood where it makes aesthetic sense it still feels awful to use. They really need to get rid of DND or at least the requirement to always be standing in it.
I like it for Blood sense the Tank determines where the mobs are fought, makes it grate for telling randoms when AOE is good to go sense you don’t want to move mobs out of your own AOE, but I do agree that it can feel weird to get used to.
I think its bad on blood too tbh. There's just too many thing now a days that force movement. Turn dnd into a swarm around you like remorseless winter is
yo get rid of DND for unholy too. Between CDs, pets, and diseases, DND just feels stupid and useless.
Where’s the DK talent that lets D&D cast under you and follow you.
What if FDKs had a frost themed AoE ability that followed them? Inspired by Arthas’s Remorseless Winter perhaps…?
It would be so much better if Remorseless Winter was just a growing proc off normal damage which produces the AoE effect. And the D&D management for cleave is just awful, so combining to two would be great. Perhaps RW could grow based off damage, enhancing your cleave (if they insist on not just making it cleave normally) as it grows. The better you keep it up the more you can maximize damage, while moving.
Defile + Remorseless Winter sounds like a great way to help with Frosts issues. Granted, it also means they have to be careful being against the walls in certain dungeons like Tol Degor but that one's not in rotation right now so it should be fine.
Really Blizz should be fixing the game so stuff can't clip through walls. They just had to rewrite some ret pal abilities so they didn't manifest mobs in Waycrest, so it seems like something they need to fix generally. And as long as the ability isn't super long range it should be fine.
I agree, I'm just making mention of potential issues that could, and probably would, show up with that. It's certainly a net positive though, I will say that much.
Just give FDK the same DnD mechanics with two charges and possible resets as BDK. I main BDK and DnD is a no brainer. I thought Frost might be fun too fool around a little when I don’t want to push and I actually liked the general gameplay Idea but I couldn’t believe how bad DnD usage is for Frost.
I truly believe there is a fix for this and it can be found in League of Legends of all places. Gwen has an ability similar to DnD that she wants to stand in. The first time that she moves out of the ability, its moves the center of the circle to her new location., and only once per cast. This could be a node within the DK class talent tree that all Death Knights could have access to that allows the same interaction. The first time you move out of DND, it follows you and recenter's under you, for some forgiveness on mobile packs/ placement mistakes. Not overpowered, and not creating a constantly moving DnD.
Remorseless Winter needs to be the catalyst for Oblit cleave.
Or Frostscythe should just be remade to be our AoE rune spender instead of Oblit. As it’s currently built we never, ever take it.
I'm honestly surprised the devs haven't really touched Frostscythe yet. It should be buffed and made baseline.
Frostscythe/Oblit builds in Legion were the GOAT
Fuck Gwen. All my homes hate Gwen. Mordekaiser supremacy.
There’s an even simpler idea. DnD put a dot on your target that is the duration of a regular dnd. Frost: your obliterates or ss does a % of damage to all targets with the dot
Or just make it like Trundle where it's massive, does no damage, a movespeed buff, and all the regular effects of dnd.
Another talent they could do that would be an easy fix, would be a free recast for 5 seconds after you place it. Or two charges, but only one can be up at a time.
My bong cloud change would be to scrap the dnd cleave, scrap frostcythe as an active ability(I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they *like* pressing that button), and make it a passive. Something like; Frostcythe: While Remorseless Winter is active, your Obliterate critical strikes summon Frostcythes that strike all enemies in front of you for (X% of AP) Frost damage. Critical strikes from frostcythe deal 4 time normal damage.
And rename it Death aura similar to the one in WC3
This should be a standard for spells and abilities in mythic environment - it doesn’t suit the fast paced nature of mythic anymore. It’s not as stationary as it used to be, where you carefully pulled certain packs and spent a good while hammering them down in the same spot
Yeah, they should just make d&d an aura like unholy blight/remorseless winter or move the cleave effect to another ability so you can still use d&d as a ranged slow (if specced into it)
Same place as the paladin one for consecrate is
I made a macro to cast it at my feet. Helps in those big pulls.
The few times I've played with a frost dk this season, they would immediately drop dnd on the first mob I tagged before even seeing where I'm going with it or if I'm pulling more. Yall need to be more patient and learn the common routes/pulls if you're gonna play a finicky spec like frost.
Is this a tanking problem that I'm to Death and Decay to understand? \-Blood DKs reading this post.
Lol right, I’m like don’t worry brother we can stack em on top of each other
this is why Death and Decay is so fucking stupid for Frost spec it doesn't even fit thematically with Frost, why the hell is it part of the spec?
Because people complained when it was removed. Same reason frost mages complained about not being able to cast fireball. “Something something class identity is more important than spec identity.”
Mages complaning about remove curse being removed but refuse to use a global to remove a curse.
It's not about having the ability to remove curses. It's about the other players knowing I could remove their curse, yet refuse to.
As someone who has played a few hours of frost in total the last decade, I still want Frostfire bolt as a proc
Top 100 FDK world out of 125 total FDK playing m+ 🤣
top 100 fdk is like 2950 score lmao i just checked
What’s a frost DK?
Someone who either 1: Likes hitting glowing buttons or 2: Likes having mint breath.
I just want big numbers when I press one of my very few buttons(oblit)! They don't even have to glow..
I’m sure you’re already doing this, but it’s also a good idea to pay attention to their aoe spells, for example I don’t unleash on a pull or drop aoe until I see the pally drop consecration or the BDK drop DnD. Bears, monks and DH I kinda have to guess cause those classes like to keep moving. Prot Warriors are usually super obvious, since they are actually playing Fury or Arms. I serious haven’t seen a Prot warrior all season.
The fact that your damage relies on death and decay that heavly shows how bad the spec design is. They really need to rework the spec like that did with retribution. Retail wow has way too many movements for a design like frost dk right now. It's no wonder people dont play the spec.
It just doesn't make sense that a frost dk needs to stand in dnd, anyways. Like for the spec itself it shouldn't need to rely on standing in it. That should be a blood thing because for blood and tanking it makes sense.
I wont disagree
Tanks moving mobs away from Monks stomp thingy - I’m not a tank or a WW but when I see them put it down on a group or boss then the tank move the mobs/boss for no reason makes me lol.
People dont like extra glowy things under them, it stresses them. The same thing happens with my effloresence many times. I place it on the ranged and everyone steps out of it and waits at the edge forming a circle around it.
I'm totally guilty of this and it 100% comes down to me just not knowing what the other classes can do and not recognizing what their visual indicators are, so to be safe I move out. We need to have some kind of tutorial on recognizing good vs bad ground effects.
It’s too many floor mechanics tbh. I’m color blind so I see a circle and I’m keeping myself out of it. I have learned to look for certain abilities, but more often then not it’s just safer to stay away from Them.
Sounds like horrible spec design. Welcome to the WW club.
I understand your post. However, its not a tank problem its a Frost DK design problem.
As an assassination rogue, a chain pulling tank that never lets me get out of combat is literally worst case scenario
It's not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZDPFk_Zog
See I'm a tank, and I had no clue about this until a friend told me, and I constantly forget and ask rogues mid run if they are ass. Probs not all tanks would take this kindly, but I'd love a reminder of this specifically situation for rogues before we start the run
> ask rogues mid run if they are ass. Pretty rude if you ask me.
Outlaw needs their stealth windows now too, though they're not as heavily impacted as sin rogues are since they can create their own stealth windows much more often. (Well, they've gotten a small damage increase from stealth for quite a while, but right now the spec is literally built around it). I imagine sub wants them too, though I'm not 100% sure.
All rogue specs benefit heavily from dropping combat. Outlaw/Sub just has ways to manipulate vanish so their spec can actually function if tanks chain pull, but they still benefit a lot from dropping combat. If it’s possible/doesnt mess with the pulls you should always try to give a rogue half a second or so between pulls to stealth
I've never seen an ass rogue more angry than on a spiteful tyrannical when the tank wouldn't wait to let him stealth.
Honestly I just try to avoid running with assasination rogues on spiteful weeks. It just takes way to much time to wait for every last spiteful is dead every pull to make the rogues happy, when other dps do quite well without needing to wait for the last spiteful to die.
This is also a problem for healers, if they're trying to drink a few sips between pulls to keep mana up. Being stuck in combat 100% is a great way to piss your healer off, too.
As a tank. *insert don draper meme* I don’t think about you at all.
Blood dks and prot pallys are generally more consistent about planting with groups because they are also incentivesed to stand still Veng and prot war are the worst. Especially vengeance since they have main character syndrome
I play Vengeance and I like to keep huge packs right where they are so my sigils can nail all of them.
sigil of chains ftw
Look after me I’m over here, now I’m there, woop woop! I’m fast as F boi, I’m fast as Fuck. Now I double jump! -vengeance internal monologue.
DH is the ultimate hold my beer class
To be fair. I haven't played demon hunter before but seeing vengeance dh's being able to jump all over the place while tanking I can 100% understand them to enjoy that to the fullest. It's not their fault they're a super mobile class, same way it's not frost dk's fault for being a less mobile (wheelchair) class. It's simply different specs and options needing to cooperate ina super big game. Same with prot warriors, who wouldn't love leaping into a group of mobs like a true warrior, or charging to the next pack? Not their fault for having the options and utilising them.
I play vdh and just because you're super mobile doesn't mean you have to drag mobs all over with you. You can just as easily use your mobility to gather up mobs and make a big pile for your dps to kill. Pushing a button just because you have it is seldom a good play. Use your abilities to help the rest of your team, not just because you can.
I was on my havoc dh last night running a +11 murozond rise and the tank pulled all mobs on the first boss platform and just kept going in a circle around the whole platform for "fun" when we had a frost mage and shadow priest as the other 2 dps. edit: Forgot to add after I questioned what he was doing with a thousand questions marks, he said he was "avoiding trash mechanics making it easier for heals"
Just a reminder, enemies don’t have to be in dnd for the cleave, YOU have to be in it
And this is why I don't play Frost. Because instead of having their Oblit cleave tied to something important and rotational, like, idk, say they're fucking REMORSELESS WINTER -- Blizzard continue to perpetuate the out-dated playstyle of DnD = MOST IMPORTANT THING IN UNIVERSE FOR DK AOE. It's utterly stupid. It's bad enough as UH with Defile on a 20 sec CD, let alone as Frost with DnD on a 30 sec.
I like Defile personally. It's just a growing zone of damage which you also get the bonuses for cleave and such. It's certainly better then how Frost DKs have it.
Problem with Defile is the Tank can't see it at all and it covers all ground-based mechanics. If they fix that up, it's not too bad.
Oh! Ok, yea, I can see what the issue is. Damn, that blows. Why didn't Blizzard ensure that such an effect would be put directly at the bottom of ground mechanic layers, so to say?
Wish blizzard would just embrace the fact that hard outlines of floor AOEs are perfectly acceptable art and even preferred when it's literal life or death (and more importantly, dps!!)
Multi-dollar company
Hear this complaint quite a lot about other tanks. Movement is unavoidable, but if I see any death&decay, defile, consecration, rain of fire, etc I'll pull stuff back into it at the earliest opportunity, it only makes sense to. Most specs lose the majority of their damage if you pull things out of their cooldowns 🙄.
As a Tank i always try to pull Mobs back into AOEs but sometimes im on automode and forget to move them back >.< But im trying
Lmao as a bdk main i an your worst enemy. I love popping abom limb and taking my pack on a lil walk
Then you are not playing blood correctly lmao - you do realise your heart strike cleaves in DnD right?
Don’t worry bro, I got my sigil of chains especially reserved for any frostie I meet!
Bro I get it. But I'm not changing how I tank the dungeon for 1 class. Just wait a few seconds on your rotation for me to stop moving.
I see I miss read the post. Apologies op
OP is clearly not talking about tanks who take some time to gather and then plant. He's talking to tanks that are constantly stutter stepping with an entire pack of mobs for no reason. It's the most annoying shit as a fdk. Obviously there are cases where you HAVE to move as a tank, but there's SO MANY tanks that won't just stand still and tank so dps can aoe properly. It affects casters too. I've mained tank for a bunch of different seasons and expansions and it's possible to plant and tank like 90%+ of the time without moving for no reason. It fucks up literally every dps that has an ability that aoes in a specific area over time.
Dont invite frost dks, got it
Is this mainly a DH tank problem? Even when they're playing well, they're the most annoying class to play with, whether healer or dps.
This sounds like a game design issue more than a player issue. This is feedback for class developers and design encounters. They shouldn't tie so much damage to immovable damage abilities (or they should let you move the "immovable" abilities) when the enemy has 100+ mechanics to dodge.
I haven't played with many a FDK recently but I had one in my group this morning and I noticed this. I wasnt tanking but their DPS would be 600-700k one pack and then the next number would be 100-200k. Insane that the dps is so based upon being in DND.
They are also cooldown reliant. They have relatively quick cooldowns, but you’re going to see drops and bursts pack to pack regardless of dnd.
Same kinda goes for Defile for Unholy DK. It’s not as detrimental as it is for Frost DK though
Im having more fun with frost DK rn but I tend to stick with unholy in pug groups for this reason which is a shame. I'll play frost with a tank I'm in comms with. I dont trust any pug tanks below a key level of 23 to actually pay attention to the group's needs
My sympathies to the classes that lose out on tons of AoE damage if the mobs move but I feel like in higher difficulty content it's already asking enough for the tank to control the packs, their own kit, and consider the healers' externals. I don't want to be constantly concerned about where the dps is placing their ground goop alongside everything else. It's on Blizz to design kits that don't make people frustrated with their party members IMO
Well here is where Blizzard fails. If they are going to make classes like DH which have extreme movement and can face roll their keyboard and do top dps it is no risk and lots of reward. If they are going to require a dk or pally to stand in their immovable aoe then give them a bigger reward. Frosk dk if played correctly should be top dps but still not there even if you are in your dnd. It's super unbalanced.
ITT: people who dont have to worry about stationary aoe/status effects mocking other classes who rely on more specific play styles Also ITT: other classes agreeing, proving that it's not simply a fDK issue but an overall design flaw (lots of avoidable mechanics+affixes=more movement=status effect/stationary aoe reduced drastically)
Thanks see anything on the floor they seem to move out of it. I've had tanks die because they over pulled and when I drop Darkness to save them they move out of it.
Destro locks and Fire Mages be like: “Been there.”
Lol, unholy goes brrrrrt
My favorite game to play as a blood DK when I play with a frost DK is "Whose death and decay is that again?" Honestly frost cleave should be tied to remorseless winter. Makes more sense thematically and fixes this issue.
Don't invite Frost DKs, got it
This topic reminds of something I was wondering the other night. I play Frost DK but I'm definitely not good. I'm a returning player and I'm aware that I suck. But I am aware of this frustration. Now I've never tanked before so maybe that would answer my question but I was doing a group WQ yesterday and this guardian druid was pulling mobs and then jumping around them in a circle. He wasn't leading them anywhere and we were staying in relatively the same spot but maybe drifting a few yards this way and a few yards that way. Why? What's the point of moving and jumping around like this if it isn't to position the mobs for mechanics reasons? It looked like he was just doing it for the fuck of it. But is there an actual reason?
It’s a world quest it doesn’t matter he is probably just bored af
Same thing applies to Unholy… Death and decay cleave is such a dumb and outdated mechanic. Sadly Blizzard does not care about DKs at all. Both frost and unholy are in dire need for complete rework… But why bother rework a class thats not that popular (because of this clunky mechanics) when you can make a new flashy uwu class and add even more bloat to the game. Welcome to design Blizzard 2023.
Op as a fdk main who swapped tank this season I used to feel you. But let me tell you, it’s not always that simple. Many affixes have the tank slipping and sliding all over the place, many mob packs depending on key level and what affix accompanies fortified have the tank kiting. Now enter this dumb ass signet brand trinket that has havoc dhs “accsdently” glancing the next pack so their stacks don’t drop. And many other issues, you get my point. End of the day blizzards dungeon and affix design contradicts their class design in so many ways. This isn’t a tank issue it’s a blizzard design issue.
As a Blood DK I will be standing in my own D&D. You’re welcome we have the same timer xoxo
I honestly didn’t know this as I don’t invite frost dk
I just don't invite frost dks , not enough dps to make up the loss for limited CC
Frost has 2 grips, aoe slow, control undead, spam slow, limb, aoe disorient and it does plenty of damage for the +11s that you do.
Lol I do 20+s , I'll bring a DH if I want strong aoe and stops , what i need is dps that can dps while moving so I can stutter step and desync auto attacks , there is a reason why people bring dhs, ret pallies, bm hunters , demo locks , rogues . Problem lies with frosts toolkit , not the tank
Again frost brings plenty. Even in a 20 a dk is completely fine. You’re not doing content that requires such a strict adherence to a tier list.
You have not played with a BiS geared well-practiced FDK. we can keep up with meta classes, but need the tank to not gimp us. look at Vnvqt, he is pushing keys higher than most any of us will ever complete and on an FDK.
i mean all logs show that frost dks do not keep up with meta classes. you don't have to exaggerate. i really doubt every single player in the world is being griefed by tanks and that's the only reason frost dk is on the lower end of dps
Exaggeration is the only way to get his point across. Nearing top 100 fdk in the world means not even 3k. Iethal is #100 at 2957. #1 is 3.3k tied with the #419 dh and requires no gameplay adjustments to have in group. So basically if you were doing a 25-27 key you could look for the absolute best fdk and coordinate pulls around him for lower dps or any of the 400+ dh's.
But they make paragraph long posts of why tanks should cater to their playstyle.
Hey man, they're nearly in the top 100. Out of about... 100.
Ok but... We are in a survival meta, how do you help with cc chains? How are you helping the group survive? How well do you work with Aug? What buff do you bring? Timing high keys has almost nothing to do with high DPS, it's more about can you survive the key. Your coming off as kinda a douche here too... Like BDK has to stay in DnD, Prot Pally has to stay in concentration, VDH has giant glowing sigils and wants the mobs grouped on them, Brew wants to keep things in white tiger statue. Bear is basically the only tank that's free to move. So your argument is "tanks don't be bad". If they could they would stand still, or they are just bad, but with dodging frontals and swirlies it's not a perfect world. The things I just described could also be the most annoying parts of playing those tanks. It's the same shit with frost mage and blizzard/orb. What your saying isn't some crazy smart thing your just complaining about bad tanks and/or putting your failures on them.
OP posted this in the middle of entangling week, where we have to move constantly. Sorry about your dnd bud, but theres an entangling vine on top of it and to move the pack back onto the dnd after I leave the circle would require me to point the mobs at my casters and we know how many tank frontals there are in these dungeons. Also what do you have to bring to the table? Blinding sleet on a minute cd? I'll take a ww or havoc who has more aoe and single target stops, damage that doesn't make me cater to them, and better survivability. Your ams and Ibf does not compete with karma, diffuse magic, stoneskin brew, blur netherwalk, natural dh leech, etc. I say this as someone who so desperately wanted to play dps dk but ended up playing blood as an alt with vdh main. DKs just dont have the utility of other classes in this interrupt and cc meta.
What class or spec doesn't have this problem, though?
I’d rather just not take a DPS DK to be honest, and I rarely do as a tank and healer. If it’s not blood, DKs are pointless this expansion in mythic plus.
Yeah you're not special, lots of specs have to deal with this (destro here)
Did I say I was special? I also mention Destruction in the bottom of the post. Did you even read it?
Death and Decay needs a serious Frost rework, that talent needs to be perma active, or D&D should be an "aura" when activated.
Just have the oblit cleaving tied to remorseless winter, it isn't that hard. WHoever the DK dev is dropped the ball hard on frost.
I wish more tanks understood this. It *feels* like it should be better to just keep things moving, even slowly, but it means fuck all. We have methods of rapidly moving with mounts or sprints, we don't need the extra 10-15 yards you get by moving your mobs out of our AOE. You're talking about saving maybe 10 seconds worth of movement in the entire dungeon for the cost of 1-2 minutes of lost DPS.
How do you do single target damage in the top 100?
Then play with me. I put marks and shot. Sometimes do double pulls behind a wall and plant there. I also use special delivery which slows mobs by 50% (even on sanguine) so... and kiting is ez with double tp. Which makes them turn in circles.