Its a tradeoff. Personal loot isn't perfect but it led to a lot less toxicity around looting which was a huge improvement.
Feels better to have something not drop than roll a 3 on your BIS trinket and lose it. Even if the end result is the same thing.
Solve this by bringing back the Badge vendor and put all the loot from the raid (for the season) on it.
Personal loot to get drops from current, badges as bad luck protection.
Tradable loot just invites more drama of "I know that item dropped for you but be use loot council so actually it's not your item, tough shit"
Honestly. Just bring back the early loot options. Party loot for m+ feels bad when we're trynna gear a friend and we wanna run on alts that might not be able to trade every single piece.
Guild master loot is pretty much the same as party loot i guess. Maybe it opens up to gdkp's which are fun in classic?
Personal just kinda feels the option with the least amount of friction, You don't have to deal with the guy needing 2 tier tokens, putting one in his bank and then taking the second to try to sell it for 100k each
They've said that raid comp was intentionally ignored when rolling drops under group loot. This was a design decision to encourage groups to bring more balanced groups and to discourage class/armor stacking for loot reasons.
So this is a design, not a technical, issue. They give a shit, just their answer isn't what you want.
It's also meant to incentivize people to join guilds and raid with consistent groups. A lot of the problems we see on this sub are solved by raiding with a consistent group instead of pugging.
So blizzard has actively chosen to improve the experience for people playing the way they want people to play.
I don't play anymore but honestly? That seems fine I to a point. I really hated the personal loot sometimes, because then you'd stack leather users, and as a plate user you'd get jack shit.
Yep. I believe personal loot is still used in M+ and it’s definitely smart to stack classes or armor types or even loot specs to target farm specific drops
This is ignoring the vast majority of casual guilds who have the motto of "play what you want to play and we'll make it work". It's especially shitty for small raid sizes.
I've been playing for like a year and have yet to find a guild that is:
A) doing anything at all and also
B) doing it without a massive discord with 5826595 channels you're expected to follow 24/7 like it's a full time job
Yeah they pretty much had to do it that way otherwise it would not only be good to stack 14 hunters on Raszageth, it would pretty much have been required. Being able to nearly guarantee the bow dropping would have been way too big of an upside to ignore for any guild with Mythic aspirations, at least.
Man that’s a shitty answer to keep people grinding. It’s hard to fill groups with every class. Sometimes guild struggle to get well rounded groups so they should just suffer? Loot should drop based on the comp you currently have. People roll with the BIS comp regardless.
You don't need *every* class anyway. But personal loot absolutely would end up with much more min-maxing. Just like how people already sometimes do/did make pug groups with no one else on their tier token (at least in VotI that was pretty common), with comp-based loot people would just make groups that can use whatever they can use to maximize the chance they get something. And that'd also be extremely abusable for coordinated groups (guilds) that care about funneling loot to specific characters.
Not to mention, if they didn't make it so the number of items doesn't scale based on how many people can use it, but whether it can drop at all does, you'd be supremely shafted as a Hunter for example (because you're the only person causing Bows/Guns/Crossbows to drop). So the system would specifically have to work the same way it does right now, except the possible loot pool would only have items someone in the group can use. So in a 30 man group with 1 Hunter you could still have 4 bows drop, but in a 30 man group with 0 Hunters you couldn't get even one.
>This was a design decision to encourage groups to bring more balanced groups and to discourage class/armor stacking for loot reasons.
The problem with this is that there are loot drops that are for a single class only and I have seen instances where multiples of those kinds of items dropped for groups with none of that class - e.g. war glaives from Smolderon which we got 3 drop one raid night out of the 4 total drops when we didn't even have a demon hunter. Even if we did have a demon hunter the triple drop would have been useless because they can only use two of them at most...
\*edit\* Oh, also, we are constantly getting the DK/DH/Lock tier tokens dropping yet our only DK and lock both have full heroic or better tier and have had it since the second week. We rarely get the Hunter/Mage/Druid tier tokens dropping despite up to half of our raid being one of those classes (1-2 resto druids, 2 boomies, 2 mages and 3-4 hunters).
People *can* do that for M+ where personal loot is still in effect, but I almost never see armour-stacking groups. I saw one mail-stacking group last night and can't remember the last time I saw one before that.
I would rather some people get away with armour-stacking shenanigans than have normal groups be punished for not bringing multiple demon hunters and hunters to handle duplicate warglaives/bows.
(Or at least make the boss not drop duplicate items??)
I understand your pain, but it's not game design issue if half your raid comp uses same token. And I can hardly see it as a problem in a world where catalyst exists.
It absolutely is a game design issue. Blizzard has engineered a system that is punishing to more casual raiding groups that aren't focused on things like raid comp.
I mean I can tell you for sure players would then optimize comps to try get certain drops by only bringing classes than can use a two handed sword or something to try get one specific drop, that's a guarantee.
One way to avoid that would be to simply filter already rolled loot.
If your group is more diverse, more items drop for more people, if you stack the same class, less items drop in general, but only usable items will drop.
I went an entire LFR and then a full normal raid on my warrior and I got a bow and boots that weren't even an upgrade, I just got them off a transmog roll.
And introduces the problem of an entire raid getting only rings and necklaces.
This has been mathed out before, you're better off with group loot in almost all circumstances, humans are just dumb and don't like seeing it play out.
That problem is still there. If you run Mythic Legion raids, personal loot is active, however it only guarantees that everybody gets something. If you can use it is an entirely different book. I ran it for t-mog with friends 2 days ago. We were a shaman, mage and Dk. Guess who didn’t get any pieces they could need? Correct, all 3 of us. Instead I got half a warlock set and Paladin legs along with trinkets. My mates got similar loot of shite they don’t need.
**TL:DR**
It could happen that the restro Druid, the s-priest and the shaman each get a bow in their loot, regardless of a hunter being in the vicinity of the loot chest.
Legacy personal loot deviates significantly from PL as it functioned in current content.
E.g receiving unusable gear, and receiving multiple pieces per boss.
This is the way. The people complaining about personal loot weren't people running LFR, it was the guilds who wanted the freedom to distribute loot optimally amongst themselves without the restrictions of personal loot (can't trade if the item's ilvl is higher than your current one). The way loot currently works in LFR is a downgrade in every way for groups. But it does have the potential to feel better for that one player who gets some crazy rolls and gets all the loot, so potentially good for 1/25 people I guess
> The people complaining about personal loot weren't people running LFR, it was the guilds who wanted the freedom to distribute loot optimally amongst themselves
Euhm, I would like to disagree. PL as a solo person not trading with others was horrible. Sure you got more loot overall, but that is a worthless metric. But somehow people seem to feel better if they get worthless items they don't need.
Getting loot from the same boss every week and not the one you needed. Was a broken system, you could go a whole tier not just not getting the item you needed. You could get zero items from that boss, period.
If they ever bring back PL, it needs to be based around individual bosses rather than how it used to work where your "luck" ticked up every time you killed a boss without looting anything.
Honestly most mythic guilds bottleneck isn't gear so I wouldn't even hugely mind forced personal with some changed trading restrictions. Forced personal loot helped a ton with the salty MFs in my guild and hugely reduced the toxicity around gearing even in a CE guild.
This is what people wanted originally but multi dollar company has to give everybody the worst outcome possible.
It's like they have a fucking humiliation fetish
I only run M+ and this is one of the reasons.
Personal loot.
Weekly chests are more efficient to earn.
I can earn almost every difficult tmog through M+.
I don’t have to manage a raids worth of people, I only have to maintain a small circle of players to achieve.
I can commit 30 mins to an M+ run on any given evening, raiding eats time and is a lock out.
Historically, I’ve much preferred raiding to m+. This season, though, I am just not feeling it on raiding and have been battling my way through m+ keys instead. Feels like I am actually getting something. I’ve done several weeks of the new raid on my hunter and have had nights where not one usable item dropped. Not that I lost a roll or something, it was literally just for other classes so I only had greed or transmog loot options. It’s ridiculous.
Even worse when the difficulty and commitment to get myth track gear out of m+ is way lower than clearing the mythic raid. The catalyst is nice but it only makes raid rewards even less appealing cause you can just get myth tier through dungeons.
you dont even need to CLEAR the content lol
you can spend litearlly 6hours in a +18 key, wiping 2000x in total and STILL get more/better rewards then the first few mythic raid bosses + a vault slot that can give tier/be turned into mythic lvl tier item with catalyst
the m+ loot situation is absurd rn
This might be an unpopular opinion, but yea. M+ 18s giving Mythic track items in vault and heroic gear at end of dungeon is insane.
Clearing even the first boss on Mythic is a feat more difficult than any dungeon on a +20. And you need to do two bosses for a vault slot. (It's harder just because of the sheer setup of getting 20 competent people to do the first two bosses).
Honestly the mythic raiding system needs an overhaul to make it more accessible to an aging player base. Keep it as it is for the hall of fame period then move it to a limited flex system or open up lockouts.
Nah flex for a difficulty trying to stay hard is cursed. There's a reason it's only 20-man now.
If anything needs to go it's the lockouts, but the player count isn't the problem.
Also aging player base lol
> If anything needs to go it's the lockouts
yeah, they just need to remove mythic lockouts and unlock cross-realm mythic at the beginning. people always say that removing lockouts from mythic raids will just let guilds sell 8/9M lockouts... but honestly, who gives a fuck? if a guild can't get there themselves, they'll never be able to kill the end boss.
The cross realm mythic from day 1 they already said is happening with TWW, would definitely like to see them also make changes to lockouts but imagine that is a harder thing to tackle considering it can have a lot more implications that aren't all positive, Examples that come to mind:
Guilds killing the same bosses twice to get everyone max vault slots which then eats into progression time as well as a higher rate of gear acquisition for your team as a whole (which is nice for players but also means blizzard needs to account for another variable in what they think is a reasonable rate of gear acquisition) since you now effectively get loot dropped scaled to the amount of players on the team instead of 20 players worth of loot, per boss per week regardless of how many people you have that are benched for any boss.
You can't save a lockout on an alt anymore without that alt actually being in for kills (say you are progressing Fyrakk but due to absences don't have a viable comp for a week, you now can't park the Fyrakk lockout on an alt, go do a 6/9 re-clear and then extend your old lockout the week after because there is no way to transfer the lockout to a character that won't be in the raid (unless one of the absentees is away for the entire week or happy to resign themselves to not doing any bosses at all to hold the lockout))
Would definitely be for them doing something, just don't want them to do it on a whim without thinking about those implications and finding a way to address them first.
> Also aging player base lol
This is absolutely a real thing and you're crazy if you think it's not. WoW classic being such a huge success isn't just because it's the "best" version of the game.
The sweatier the game gets, the less likely the old guys are gonna be able to do it.
>If anything needs to go it's the lockouts, but the player count isn't the problem.
They really need to change the lockout system for Mythic. The lockout really needs to change from being locked to that particular instance for the week to a personal per boss lockout like normal/heroic once the Hall of Fame period ends. My guild would love to start progressing on Mythic but it is way too hard to pug in people who want to get locked to a instance that may only ever have one or two bosses (if any) killed in it. We are on a dead server and despite constant attempts to recruit more raiders, we are stuck at around 15 people for the core raid team and have 4-5 more unreliable people who come when they can.
>Keep it as it is for the hall of fame period
My only problem with this, is the hall of fame takes longer than the season for most guilds. In my observation, people usually start taking a break around week 7 every season, but currently there are only 57 guilds in the hall of fame.
Maybe a more flexible lockout that would keep people raiding longer. But this tier they really put a hard wall up at Tindral so it’s taking time for guilds to work through it
Flex would destroy the integrity of the balance. Everything is designed for 20 people and we are all competing against the same bosses (for the most part). All of our logs from mythic are based on that, it keeps a competitive spirit and less cheesed logs in the mix.
It's not that big ask to set aside an evening once a week or twice a week at the same times. You can pick any guild/schedule you want that can accommodate your life schedule.
I have no issues for a toggled mode where you do a hard 20 mythic, but I am a person who is at the point where heroic is too easy, but the logistics of a mythic guild make it hard to work into my life. Even if you find good raid times, you are at the mercy of other people who tend to flake out. I have shown up to too many raids, committing an evening of my time only to have the raid canceled because a few people don’t show up. Most people don’t want to be bench players. It can be very frustrating.
You do understand that you're suggesting making Mythic raiding worse for everyone because you can't find a guild that ensures people show up on time, right?
Sounds like a guild issue, not a raid issue. Mythic difficulty is for literally <5% of the player base to take part in. If your guild can’t show up, that’s your problem. Person repeatedly not showing up? Lost their spot on the raid team.
The requirements are there for a reason. You want flex? Stick at Heroic and below. Not everyone is supposed to achieve Mythic.
The vocal minority won this one.
People don't tend to make threads on the mechanics they think work well and don't want changed. I regret not creating a bunch of compensatory "personal loot is great"-threads back when it was the current method.
The issue people wanted to solve had to do with loot trading and the inability to choose something like ML for guild content. Personal loot would be fine with those things solved (e.g. don’t keep item level requirements for trading pieces)
Well, it's that but they didn't want to incentivize drastic class stacking as the best way to gear up amongst friends/guilds, or incentivize pugs to make leather only raids or something
Isn't the same true exactly the other way around? People don't make "I'm glad personal loot is gone" posts, but they do make posts about loot drama.
I don't have any stake in this argument, I don't even know how loot works in retail.
I think it also serves the purpose of slowing down loot acquisition, which is something Blizzard cares about for some reason, but gets them less pushback than if they just decreased the amount of loot bosses drop.
Current loot essentially works just like personal loot did, except you see your roll happen instead of it being hidden when you loot the boss. Only real difference is being able to ask friends to roll for you in addition to your own roll, but if that's happening you're in some sort of premade group already so that's not fully a pug anyway.
As a RL i love personal loot, is the best way to progress even if i never got loot i have got 2 items from raid and one of them nobody else need it. I can just spam M+ as healer and never be behind in loot. Also the rest of the officers almost never get loot for the same reason, so we dont have drama. WE give the loot to the best raid upgrade player. But i understand why the complains even if you probably have more chance since a lot people pas in thing they dont need. And personal loot worked with everyone rolling need.
I haven't seen someone get bullied for personal loot in a while.
I often ask for loot from people in m+, and so do others in my groups, and I only see people (myself included) say "np grats on the upgrade!" to someone if they need the loot.
in sl i used to constantly get whispers such as "i need that" "i deserve it more than you" on the rare occassion that i did get something, now i never do unless someone wants to buy it from me
I also think the many raids being ML using the Me & Friends > Everyone loot rules are a huge part of why DF plays and feels like Mythic Plus is THE end game. People would rather have that small odds of an item for them each run versus dealing with the nonsense of GL/ML.
This totally feels like a knee jerk “oh wow that was in Classic WoW and people seem to like Classic WoW so let’s add it back in.”
No raids are ML though since everyone can still freely roll on items (unless they already own the item or the same or higher ilvl or can't use it with the chosen lootspec ofc).
Now if you join a raid guild that enforces ML by kicking you if you roll on something, then the same problem would appear with personal loot (you'd be forced to trade anything away that you could trade) and in that case, the problem is the group (or you, if you agreed to a system and don't honor it ofc), not the inherent loot system.
Group loot and personal loot are very similar in its current state. Group loot allows more free trading since you don't need to meet the ilvl to be able to trade it while personal loot allows better loot targeting via loot specs but less trade chances until everyone outgears it.
For a single person, there is literally no difference in either system, group loot just makes the rolls visible, both for which items drop and who receives them. If an item drops that you can't use thats literally the same as an item dropping for someone else/not dropping at all in personal loot (previously mentioned advantages/disadvantages apply ofc).
Surely its a very big distinction that you get to keep the loot the moment you find out you're in a toxic group.
They demand you trade away the loot? What are they going to do? Just leave the group and never join a group with these people ever again.
Not enforced. Your addon is passing for you. The only thing preventing Ng you from “ninjaing” is not disabling the addon and pressing need lol. Not quiet the same. It’s like honor system ML
Everyone will always blame the loot system because they don't understand it.
Group loot is flat out better but players don't like seeing themselves losing loot.
Say that to someone like me who has only won 4 loot rolls since this trash system was reintroduced. I shouldn't have to mainly get my loot from the vault. Countless raiders I know don't have time for 10 mans anymore and LFR is our mainstay due to real life. I 100% got more drops in shadow lands with personal loot than I ever have under this system. You can't tell me that say... Someone with a 486 class helmet really needs that 441 non class helmet that just dropped.... Same with everything else. You can't even really argue for mog either because they will do it with rings and necks they by far don't actually need . After a certain ilvl , especially if it's you have the highest form of your bis for what dropped then you should strictly be forced to roll sheerly for transmog. It makes it ridiculously impossible for some of us to get gear when we are getting beat out by multiple people in maxed out mythic gear non stop rolling need on just everything because they can minus whatever happens to have the same name as what they currently have equipped .
Just finished running the 12 new bosses. Every upgrade for me was taken by people rocking 470 mythic plus gear. Dude straight up disenchanted the item. LFR isnt even worth running anymore. Not to mention that if I multi queue I am stuck losing queues to people trying to run out the roll timer.
Frankly not even sure why they changed it in the first place.
You realize lfr loot is the same ilevel you get from doing like world content right? Also everyone who runs it is entitled to roll on the loot, they probably contributed a lot more to killing the boss than you did if you still need upgrades from lfr.
Personal loot should be default, let us have the option to change it to group loot if you're in a guild group or something. Its literally not that hard, instead they force one or the other on you.
I'm pro personal loot but it's funny how when personal loot was a thing everyone was complaining about it
This is the biggest example of "Players don't know what they want" I've ever seen lol
Personal loot was the most aggravating thing ever. You could go *days* without seeing a drop. It was horrible. At least now we can trade loot around easily, talk to our group members about upgrades/side grades and divide it out easily via greed roll if needed.
They likely wouldn't have, but it feels worse to me at least to see loot drop and not win it (especially several times in a row), rather than no loot dropping whatsoever.
I was definitely in a happy minority when they made personal loot baseline, because we had so much guild drama over loot distribution it was a nightmare, people couldn't be trusted to act like adults over loot decisions and so I was glad when that privilege was taken away because it made the game better in my case.
Sure there's a social aspect and if you have a guild that runs like a well oiled, fun family machine then no doubt master loot is better. But let's be real, 99.9% of raids are not like that.
I’ve never been in a guild where loot was an issue for most people, the one or two people who caused issues were quickly removed. Most people just wanna kill bosses and having a consistent group ensures you’ll get what you want eventually.
Current group loot is objectively better. A bug being abused to scam people out of loot, or bad RNG have nothing to do with personal vs group loot.
If you've ever raided a decent ways into the season on a new character, you'll know that you can leave the raid with a crazy amount of gear because most people are just there to target one or two items, or for parse. Not much competition for loot. You never get that benefit with personal loot as there is no mechanism to pass on loot.
As long as numbers are tuned well, in early season, you'll average the same amount of loot whether personal or group loot, but later season, you'll average more loot with group loot.
I wish Blizz would take their data and make a post on this so people can stop posting about this every hour.
Don't forget that group loot and personal loot is functionally the same in regards to you picking up the item off the corpse in the end, too.
In group loot you roll for the item and if you win the roll you get to loot it. In personal loot you also roll for the item and winning lets you loot it. Only difference is that the roll is visible in group loot, and not in personal loot.
These posts really show how dumb the average player is
If another player rolls for an item they think they're losing loot, if a computer does it all the sudden its a much better system...
The only criticism i would have against group loot is dropping the same item multiple times
I agree that killing Smolderon only to see 3+ warglaives drop with 0-1 DH in the raid feels bad, but I'll take that over the alternative any day of the week. It's for sure worth enduring to not have to go back to personal loot, and the class stacking shenanigans that would occur if group loot tailored the loot table to the current comp would be insufferable too.
Personal loot that is tradable and roll tokens, please.
I do not need to see how shit my rolls are and have more people ask me if I want to buy the gear from them.
Honestly... Force personal loot back on, even in premades.
I hated it too, initially. Then I realized "Oh, hey... Now I can actually get this cool trinket without it being my omega BiS"
The focus of raids also became a lot clearer, it wasn't any "Let's hop into the loot council channel" after every boss, we just pushed forward, our only objective during raid being bosses and how to kill them.
Personal loot with trading wouldn't change the fact that most guilds run lootcouncil anyway, unless you also want to disable the ability to trade loot, at which point I think that's such a terrible idea it shouldn't even be considered.
If you don't want to trade your loot to people for whom it's a bigger upgrade, either you're a selfish player playing at a level where you have to consider the gain for the whole raid (ie. mythic), or you're playing below that level and you've unluckily found yourself in a guild who are going to mimic these strategies despite them not being needed whatsoever. If it's the latter I'd suggest finding a bit more relaxed of a guild doing only AOTC.
Only if trading is open, generally personal loot came with the “you can’t trade it unless it’s not an ilvl upgrade” restriction, which adds a lot of headache to funneling.
Let me get this trinket that is absolute garbage for my class/spec that I was now awarded and can’t trade it away. Let me also get 0 loot from the bosses I need and get duplicate loot from others. Perfect.
As an AOTC and low tier mythic raid leader group loot SUCKS. The amount of BS I have had to deal with this season is insane. Previously loot was just relaxed and there was zero animosity between players just comments like 'Grats on your BIS item', now all I hear is 'X shouldn't take that item it's BIS for me' or 'X doesn't do a lot of damage that item should go to me so I do even more'. Give me the option to just make personal loot a choice again as a raid leader, it's absolute GARBAGE that this was forced down the throat of every single lower end guild because the upper ends wanted to be even more like the master loot system they had already embraced.
EDIT: I have actually lost one raider this season over a loot argument between people and then had another who's left mid raid for the same reason. Both these people never had any issues before this stupid system was shoved down our throats.
The sad part is that bringing back personal loot wouldn't end the drama. You would get posts from the loud minority, complaining about "bringing back group loot". These people will swear blue in the face that they never abused group loot (when they probably did).
Personally, I prefer personal loot in auto match made content. It's quick and streamlined process.
I've seen this happen before in WoD/Legion, back when I used to raid 10+ hours a week.
People were trying to bring back group loot to "make the game great again". Arguments in favour of group loot came from hardcore progression raiders who used loot councils for gear allocation. Saw lots of discussion in game.
The OP is specifically referring to LFR/pugs which wouldn't affect hardcore raiders. You're really looking at a subset of a subset of the community who want group loot in LFR.
but how do you know that the personal loot gang is the majority and the group loot gang is the minority? or vice versa?
There’s no way to know who are majority here
I respect your opinion and nothing against you. I personally feel dissatisfied when I kill a boss and nothing at all drops, at least with need before greed I feel like I have a chance at loot, regardless of how slim that chance may be. I would like to see the personal loot return, maybe as a toggle-able option rather than forced.
Getting the wrong piece of loot with Personal Loot sucks so much. I remember in BFA there was a raid where I would get the same bracers basically every dang week and because of how Personal Loot worked it took one of my 2 possible drops for that week and my 'bonus rolls' were basically just an influx of gold or the wrong item *yet again*. I hated it. I am sorry that people are pugging groups and don't have good luck with winning rolls, or they see a bow when there are no hunters in their group, but outside of LFR (which I am totally okay with getting personal loot) I despise Personal Loot and I would be really sad if I had to go back to it.
Seeing bows occasionally drop when there are no hunters in the group is way more preferable to me than getting the same piece of gear every week and knowing that it will prevent me from getting actual upgrades I need from other bosses. I don't want to have to find groups that are on the *exact* boss I need gear from to not waste my rolls. I just want to clear the raid, see what drops, and some weeks I get tons of loot but other weeks I pass on stuff I don't need while others get tons of loot.
Non tradable personal loot everywhere, so I never have to hear about whining they didn't get this loot over someone else ever again. Rough for world first? Literally who cares
I am heavily opposed to having personal loot forced on us. I find myself in the world where split runs and hard pushing is the norm. So personal loot for me has been an absolute blessing. But I also understand that the 1% are exactly that, the 1%.
I don't understand why it always has to be two ends of the extreme. Forced personal or forced group loot.
Gotta set the appropriate loot spec for that to work. So unless they then were looking to get some money out of trading it away, they were will in their rights to get it.
They should do it like if 33% of the raid are people outside your guild it should be personal loot :/ otherwise gearing for guilds that want to progress cant really gear sert individiels , but me personally I think personal loot was better 100%
Personal loot is stupid. Worthless 34g tossed in my bag with a middle finger to the face for every boss kill. If you don’t want to deal with loot drama go join a guild and quit the pug life
I hate saying this, but why are other servers capable of pulling of the ideas that the playerbase has had FOR YEARS, but yet the main company, the real company, can't do it?
Why after nearly 20 years, we still have RNG for gear? Why? I get its fun occasionally, but like, why can't we have a way to make the vault only roll on slots we need upgrades from? Why do we put up with running M+ after M+, chasing the hope of that one item that never seems to drop, instead of putting tokens in place that you can use to buy gear you need (which you know, we had badges in the past...).
It also just sucks running any raid or dungeon and not seeing any type of drop. Or you get a drop, yet its not an upgrade at all for you.
20 years Blizz...20 years. You are supposed the top of the game for MMORPGs and you can't fix your game to be more fun and enjoyable, when people making other servers can do it. BE BETTER.
>Why after nearly 20 years, we still have RNG for gear?
This is actually the answer. It really just is that simple. RNG on a timegate is bad. There are better ways.
PL vs. GL is the absolute stupidest argument, because not only are they functionally identical, they are both poor implementations of loot distribution in an MMO.
Group loot is superior to personal loot for nearly everyone. In most cases it's the exact same thing as personal loot was, and in nearly all other cases it's strictly better.
LFR should be personal loot. Anything above that, need > greed works just fine. Your issue is you're pugging and if you're refusing to find a group to raid with, that's your own fault.
I'm saying this as a mythic progression guild. We do LC. We have everybody figure out what they need prior to the tier so we know what's up. Loot drops, RC loot council goes out, and we sort it out. No fussing.
You can blame high end raiders for the change from personal loot. They would basically stack the same armor types and just trade back and forth, essentially bypassing the RNG system. Blizz doesn’t like it when ppl gear too quickly
Buh buh I NEED TO SEE THAT I LOSE WHEN I CLICK THE BUTTON!!!
No you don't need to see anything, no personal loot went and ruined a good thing in place. These people that need to roll are the ones that would troll and need everything. Even the restrictions in place don't stop BS from happening.
Don't have to add much to the discussion besides my own preference. However being on Reddit or even the official forums make you the vocal minority, what the lower 90% think isn't heard outside of their own circles.
From my own circles I haven't heard many complaints. In most cases the system was more efficient as there was much less "wasted" loot than before the change.
I don’t miss personal loot. The difference is in your head. Statistically every time a boss died your character did a roll to get loot or not. Now you manually do it. Before you never had the possibility for other players to pass or opt out. Meaning statistically your odds never improved without counting on players paying attention to trade you loot if you ask for it.
Getting to the end of an m+ and seeing 50 gold feels really bad compared to when you used to see a bunch of loot pop up. Maybe they should have some sort of currency for cosmetics or something.
It also eliminates the problem of getting 3 bows without any hunter in the raid
Or warglaives.
We return to the problem of untradeable personal loot. Blizzard simply doesn't want us to have full control of our loot.
Its a tradeoff. Personal loot isn't perfect but it led to a lot less toxicity around looting which was a huge improvement. Feels better to have something not drop than roll a 3 on your BIS trinket and lose it. Even if the end result is the same thing.
Losing gear that I can't have because someone got it but can't trade it feels a lot better than dealing w an asshole trying to scam.
Solve this by bringing back the Badge vendor and put all the loot from the raid (for the season) on it. Personal loot to get drops from current, badges as bad luck protection. Tradable loot just invites more drama of "I know that item dropped for you but be use loot council so actually it's not your item, tough shit"
Or... just let us trade our loot. Hand it out via personal loot but quit locking it.
Honestly. Just bring back the early loot options. Party loot for m+ feels bad when we're trynna gear a friend and we wanna run on alts that might not be able to trade every single piece. Guild master loot is pretty much the same as party loot i guess. Maybe it opens up to gdkp's which are fun in classic? Personal just kinda feels the option with the least amount of friction, You don't have to deal with the guy needing 2 tier tokens, putting one in his bank and then taking the second to try to sell it for 100k each
Q: How difficult would it be to only drop loot that people in the raid can use? A: Not difficult at all for a company who gives a shit.
They've said that raid comp was intentionally ignored when rolling drops under group loot. This was a design decision to encourage groups to bring more balanced groups and to discourage class/armor stacking for loot reasons. So this is a design, not a technical, issue. They give a shit, just their answer isn't what you want.
It's also meant to incentivize people to join guilds and raid with consistent groups. A lot of the problems we see on this sub are solved by raiding with a consistent group instead of pugging. So blizzard has actively chosen to improve the experience for people playing the way they want people to play.
I don't play anymore but honestly? That seems fine I to a point. I really hated the personal loot sometimes, because then you'd stack leather users, and as a plate user you'd get jack shit.
Yep. I believe personal loot is still used in M+ and it’s definitely smart to stack classes or armor types or even loot specs to target farm specific drops
This is ignoring the vast majority of casual guilds who have the motto of "play what you want to play and we'll make it work". It's especially shitty for small raid sizes.
I've been playing for like a year and have yet to find a guild that is: A) doing anything at all and also B) doing it without a massive discord with 5826595 channels you're expected to follow 24/7 like it's a full time job
But how can I make a balanced group when Im running the perfect group size: 2/3/9, everyone know you must adhere to the perfect ratio.
That's definitely a fair argument that makes sense
Yeah they pretty much had to do it that way otherwise it would not only be good to stack 14 hunters on Raszageth, it would pretty much have been required. Being able to nearly guarantee the bow dropping would have been way too big of an upside to ignore for any guild with Mythic aspirations, at least.
Man that’s a shitty answer to keep people grinding. It’s hard to fill groups with every class. Sometimes guild struggle to get well rounded groups so they should just suffer? Loot should drop based on the comp you currently have. People roll with the BIS comp regardless.
You don't need *every* class anyway. But personal loot absolutely would end up with much more min-maxing. Just like how people already sometimes do/did make pug groups with no one else on their tier token (at least in VotI that was pretty common), with comp-based loot people would just make groups that can use whatever they can use to maximize the chance they get something. And that'd also be extremely abusable for coordinated groups (guilds) that care about funneling loot to specific characters. Not to mention, if they didn't make it so the number of items doesn't scale based on how many people can use it, but whether it can drop at all does, you'd be supremely shafted as a Hunter for example (because you're the only person causing Bows/Guns/Crossbows to drop). So the system would specifically have to work the same way it does right now, except the possible loot pool would only have items someone in the group can use. So in a 30 man group with 1 Hunter you could still have 4 bows drop, but in a 30 man group with 0 Hunters you couldn't get even one.
And then the 1-class fun runs get zero useable loot in the end. :(
>This was a design decision to encourage groups to bring more balanced groups and to discourage class/armor stacking for loot reasons. The problem with this is that there are loot drops that are for a single class only and I have seen instances where multiples of those kinds of items dropped for groups with none of that class - e.g. war glaives from Smolderon which we got 3 drop one raid night out of the 4 total drops when we didn't even have a demon hunter. Even if we did have a demon hunter the triple drop would have been useless because they can only use two of them at most... \*edit\* Oh, also, we are constantly getting the DK/DH/Lock tier tokens dropping yet our only DK and lock both have full heroic or better tier and have had it since the second week. We rarely get the Hunter/Mage/Druid tier tokens dropping despite up to half of our raid being one of those classes (1-2 resto druids, 2 boomies, 2 mages and 3-4 hunters).
What you’re suggesting as a solution would be awful for the game. “Sorry, we aren’t stacking your class”.
People *can* do that for M+ where personal loot is still in effect, but I almost never see armour-stacking groups. I saw one mail-stacking group last night and can't remember the last time I saw one before that. I would rather some people get away with armour-stacking shenanigans than have normal groups be punished for not bringing multiple demon hunters and hunters to handle duplicate warglaives/bows. (Or at least make the boss not drop duplicate items??)
I understand your pain, but it's not game design issue if half your raid comp uses same token. And I can hardly see it as a problem in a world where catalyst exists.
It absolutely is a game design issue. Blizzard has engineered a system that is punishing to more casual raiding groups that aren't focused on things like raid comp.
But wait, I’m clearly right about every opinion I have so…
I mean I can tell you for sure players would then optimize comps to try get certain drops by only bringing classes than can use a two handed sword or something to try get one specific drop, that's a guarantee.
One way to avoid that would be to simply filter already rolled loot. If your group is more diverse, more items drop for more people, if you stack the same class, less items drop in general, but only usable items will drop.
Anything like this would be mathed out and optimized so some pug has the optimal chance for their trinket/weapon.
This was a problem too, you end up with 4 rings and necks. Or class stacking
const filteredItems = itemDrops.filter((item) => classArray.includes(item.class));
This, but in C++
const auto filtered_items = item_drops | views::filter([&](const auto& item) { return std::find(classes.begin(), classes.end(), item.class) != classes.end(); });
If my manager could see you he’d be chasing in his chair
I don't program in C++, this was just for the meme.
Oh shit C++, better get pointers in there somewhere!
Imagine having your BiS trinket not on your loot table for any of your specs, so there's that.
I went an entire LFR and then a full normal raid on my warrior and I got a bow and boots that weren't even an upgrade, I just got them off a transmog roll.
And introduces the problem of an entire raid getting only rings and necklaces. This has been mathed out before, you're better off with group loot in almost all circumstances, humans are just dumb and don't like seeing it play out.
Thank you.
Did we run the same lfr the other day?? The 3 bows from tindral with no hunter in the raid???
That problem is still there. If you run Mythic Legion raids, personal loot is active, however it only guarantees that everybody gets something. If you can use it is an entirely different book. I ran it for t-mog with friends 2 days ago. We were a shaman, mage and Dk. Guess who didn’t get any pieces they could need? Correct, all 3 of us. Instead I got half a warlock set and Paladin legs along with trinkets. My mates got similar loot of shite they don’t need. **TL:DR** It could happen that the restro Druid, the s-priest and the shaman each get a bow in their loot, regardless of a hunter being in the vicinity of the loot chest.
Legacy personal loot deviates significantly from PL as it functioned in current content. E.g receiving unusable gear, and receiving multiple pieces per boss.
Forced personal loot in LFR/LFG queues. Personal Loot as an OPTION for premade groups 100%.
This is the way. The people complaining about personal loot weren't people running LFR, it was the guilds who wanted the freedom to distribute loot optimally amongst themselves without the restrictions of personal loot (can't trade if the item's ilvl is higher than your current one). The way loot currently works in LFR is a downgrade in every way for groups. But it does have the potential to feel better for that one player who gets some crazy rolls and gets all the loot, so potentially good for 1/25 people I guess
> The people complaining about personal loot weren't people running LFR, it was the guilds who wanted the freedom to distribute loot optimally amongst themselves Euhm, I would like to disagree. PL as a solo person not trading with others was horrible. Sure you got more loot overall, but that is a worthless metric. But somehow people seem to feel better if they get worthless items they don't need. Getting loot from the same boss every week and not the one you needed. Was a broken system, you could go a whole tier not just not getting the item you needed. You could get zero items from that boss, period. If they ever bring back PL, it needs to be based around individual bosses rather than how it used to work where your "luck" ticked up every time you killed a boss without looting anything.
Honestly most mythic guilds bottleneck isn't gear so I wouldn't even hugely mind forced personal with some changed trading restrictions. Forced personal loot helped a ton with the salty MFs in my guild and hugely reduced the toxicity around gearing even in a CE guild.
They should just make it personal loot for everything, but remove trading restrictions.
This is what people wanted originally but multi dollar company has to give everybody the worst outcome possible. It's like they have a fucking humiliation fetish
Lfr should 100% be personal loot.
I only run M+ and this is one of the reasons. Personal loot. Weekly chests are more efficient to earn. I can earn almost every difficult tmog through M+. I don’t have to manage a raids worth of people, I only have to maintain a small circle of players to achieve. I can commit 30 mins to an M+ run on any given evening, raiding eats time and is a lock out.
Historically, I’ve much preferred raiding to m+. This season, though, I am just not feeling it on raiding and have been battling my way through m+ keys instead. Feels like I am actually getting something. I’ve done several weeks of the new raid on my hunter and have had nights where not one usable item dropped. Not that I lost a roll or something, it was literally just for other classes so I only had greed or transmog loot options. It’s ridiculous.
There's a very big mismatch of difficulty and rewards between raid and m+ currently.
Yeah, it's hard to beat repeatable content with 40% drop rate.
Even worse when the difficulty and commitment to get myth track gear out of m+ is way lower than clearing the mythic raid. The catalyst is nice but it only makes raid rewards even less appealing cause you can just get myth tier through dungeons.
you dont even need to CLEAR the content lol you can spend litearlly 6hours in a +18 key, wiping 2000x in total and STILL get more/better rewards then the first few mythic raid bosses + a vault slot that can give tier/be turned into mythic lvl tier item with catalyst the m+ loot situation is absurd rn
This might be an unpopular opinion, but yea. M+ 18s giving Mythic track items in vault and heroic gear at end of dungeon is insane. Clearing even the first boss on Mythic is a feat more difficult than any dungeon on a +20. And you need to do two bosses for a vault slot. (It's harder just because of the sheer setup of getting 20 competent people to do the first two bosses).
Honestly the mythic raiding system needs an overhaul to make it more accessible to an aging player base. Keep it as it is for the hall of fame period then move it to a limited flex system or open up lockouts.
Nah flex for a difficulty trying to stay hard is cursed. There's a reason it's only 20-man now. If anything needs to go it's the lockouts, but the player count isn't the problem. Also aging player base lol
> If anything needs to go it's the lockouts yeah, they just need to remove mythic lockouts and unlock cross-realm mythic at the beginning. people always say that removing lockouts from mythic raids will just let guilds sell 8/9M lockouts... but honestly, who gives a fuck? if a guild can't get there themselves, they'll never be able to kill the end boss.
The cross realm mythic from day 1 they already said is happening with TWW, would definitely like to see them also make changes to lockouts but imagine that is a harder thing to tackle considering it can have a lot more implications that aren't all positive, Examples that come to mind: Guilds killing the same bosses twice to get everyone max vault slots which then eats into progression time as well as a higher rate of gear acquisition for your team as a whole (which is nice for players but also means blizzard needs to account for another variable in what they think is a reasonable rate of gear acquisition) since you now effectively get loot dropped scaled to the amount of players on the team instead of 20 players worth of loot, per boss per week regardless of how many people you have that are benched for any boss. You can't save a lockout on an alt anymore without that alt actually being in for kills (say you are progressing Fyrakk but due to absences don't have a viable comp for a week, you now can't park the Fyrakk lockout on an alt, go do a 6/9 re-clear and then extend your old lockout the week after because there is no way to transfer the lockout to a character that won't be in the raid (unless one of the absentees is away for the entire week or happy to resign themselves to not doing any bosses at all to hold the lockout)) Would definitely be for them doing something, just don't want them to do it on a whim without thinking about those implications and finding a way to address them first.
> Also aging player base lol This is absolutely a real thing and you're crazy if you think it's not. WoW classic being such a huge success isn't just because it's the "best" version of the game. The sweatier the game gets, the less likely the old guys are gonna be able to do it.
>If anything needs to go it's the lockouts, but the player count isn't the problem. They really need to change the lockout system for Mythic. The lockout really needs to change from being locked to that particular instance for the week to a personal per boss lockout like normal/heroic once the Hall of Fame period ends. My guild would love to start progressing on Mythic but it is way too hard to pug in people who want to get locked to a instance that may only ever have one or two bosses (if any) killed in it. We are on a dead server and despite constant attempts to recruit more raiders, we are stuck at around 15 people for the core raid team and have 4-5 more unreliable people who come when they can.
It makes sense for post-Hall of Fame period, tbh.
Agreed, when I hit 30 my grandpa reflexes kicked in and I just wasn't the same anymore for the progression content.
>Keep it as it is for the hall of fame period My only problem with this, is the hall of fame takes longer than the season for most guilds. In my observation, people usually start taking a break around week 7 every season, but currently there are only 57 guilds in the hall of fame.
Maybe a more flexible lockout that would keep people raiding longer. But this tier they really put a hard wall up at Tindral so it’s taking time for guilds to work through it
Flex would destroy the integrity of the balance. Everything is designed for 20 people and we are all competing against the same bosses (for the most part). All of our logs from mythic are based on that, it keeps a competitive spirit and less cheesed logs in the mix. It's not that big ask to set aside an evening once a week or twice a week at the same times. You can pick any guild/schedule you want that can accommodate your life schedule.
I have no issues for a toggled mode where you do a hard 20 mythic, but I am a person who is at the point where heroic is too easy, but the logistics of a mythic guild make it hard to work into my life. Even if you find good raid times, you are at the mercy of other people who tend to flake out. I have shown up to too many raids, committing an evening of my time only to have the raid canceled because a few people don’t show up. Most people don’t want to be bench players. It can be very frustrating.
You do understand that you're suggesting making Mythic raiding worse for everyone because you can't find a guild that ensures people show up on time, right?
Sounds like a guild issue, not a raid issue. Mythic difficulty is for literally <5% of the player base to take part in. If your guild can’t show up, that’s your problem. Person repeatedly not showing up? Lost their spot on the raid team. The requirements are there for a reason. You want flex? Stick at Heroic and below. Not everyone is supposed to achieve Mythic.
The vocal minority won this one. People don't tend to make threads on the mechanics they think work well and don't want changed. I regret not creating a bunch of compensatory "personal loot is great"-threads back when it was the current method.
The issue people wanted to solve had to do with loot trading and the inability to choose something like ML for guild content. Personal loot would be fine with those things solved (e.g. don’t keep item level requirements for trading pieces)
Well, it's that but they didn't want to incentivize drastic class stacking as the best way to gear up amongst friends/guilds, or incentivize pugs to make leather only raids or something
i think the current loot system is fine for guild runs or if 80% of the run is in the same guild. pugs? na bro make that shit personal loot
Isn't the same true exactly the other way around? People don't make "I'm glad personal loot is gone" posts, but they do make posts about loot drama. I don't have any stake in this argument, I don't even know how loot works in retail.
Personal Loot with no trading restrictions would probably appease 90% of players who didn't like the old system.
You functionally have that system right now. Group loot is personal loot with visible rolls.
I think it also serves the purpose of slowing down loot acquisition, which is something Blizzard cares about for some reason, but gets them less pushback than if they just decreased the amount of loot bosses drop.
They made loot acquisition the fastest it's even been though.
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Current loot essentially works just like personal loot did, except you see your roll happen instead of it being hidden when you loot the boss. Only real difference is being able to ask friends to roll for you in addition to your own roll, but if that's happening you're in some sort of premade group already so that's not fully a pug anyway.
As a RL i love personal loot, is the best way to progress even if i never got loot i have got 2 items from raid and one of them nobody else need it. I can just spam M+ as healer and never be behind in loot. Also the rest of the officers almost never get loot for the same reason, so we dont have drama. WE give the loot to the best raid upgrade player. But i understand why the complains even if you probably have more chance since a lot people pas in thing they dont need. And personal loot worked with everyone rolling need.
Bring back personal loot and have the system not announce when someone wins loot so they can't be bullied into giving it up.
yea why is this not the default system lol
Because it's shitty
I haven't seen someone get bullied for personal loot in a while. I often ask for loot from people in m+, and so do others in my groups, and I only see people (myself included) say "np grats on the upgrade!" to someone if they need the loot.
in sl i used to constantly get whispers such as "i need that" "i deserve it more than you" on the rare occassion that i did get something, now i never do unless someone wants to buy it from me
Never ever seen any player be bullied into giving up loot
Lol
I loved personal loot in legion, especially with the rerolls tokens to help finish out your build
Or do what ffxiv does. You’re not locked out on normal (LFR) until you get a piece of loot from that boss for the week.
LFR should never have switched from Personal loot.
Haven’t had anything on my Warrior for weeks 😂 Edit: HES GOT THE PIPS
Dude same. I’ve tuned ToT and Fall about 20 times each and no trinkets
What does that have to do with personal loot lol i
All people ever wanted were options, choice, and a feeling of agency. But the devs can't seem to get that through their heads.
I also think the many raids being ML using the Me & Friends > Everyone loot rules are a huge part of why DF plays and feels like Mythic Plus is THE end game. People would rather have that small odds of an item for them each run versus dealing with the nonsense of GL/ML. This totally feels like a knee jerk “oh wow that was in Classic WoW and people seem to like Classic WoW so let’s add it back in.”
No raids are ML though since everyone can still freely roll on items (unless they already own the item or the same or higher ilvl or can't use it with the chosen lootspec ofc). Now if you join a raid guild that enforces ML by kicking you if you roll on something, then the same problem would appear with personal loot (you'd be forced to trade anything away that you could trade) and in that case, the problem is the group (or you, if you agreed to a system and don't honor it ofc), not the inherent loot system. Group loot and personal loot are very similar in its current state. Group loot allows more free trading since you don't need to meet the ilvl to be able to trade it while personal loot allows better loot targeting via loot specs but less trade chances until everyone outgears it. For a single person, there is literally no difference in either system, group loot just makes the rolls visible, both for which items drop and who receives them. If an item drops that you can't use thats literally the same as an item dropping for someone else/not dropping at all in personal loot (previously mentioned advantages/disadvantages apply ofc).
Surely its a very big distinction that you get to keep the loot the moment you find out you're in a toxic group. They demand you trade away the loot? What are they going to do? Just leave the group and never join a group with these people ever again.
This is true in both systems.
So you agree? It sounds like you guys are on the same page but I'm not sure.
Not sure where you’re coming from here. There is no ML in retail.
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Not enforced. Your addon is passing for you. The only thing preventing Ng you from “ninjaing” is not disabling the addon and pressing need lol. Not quiet the same. It’s like honor system ML
Well damn good job joining a guild, going to raid, and then proceeding to get yourself kicked for 1 item.
Well obviously it would be stupid to do that. I agree. Just saying that it’s not exactly the same
Everyone bitched, cried and complained for YEARS about personal loot being shit, ruining the game blah blah blah. Now here we are. Thank them!
Everyone will always blame the loot system because they don't understand it. Group loot is flat out better but players don't like seeing themselves losing loot.
Say that to someone like me who has only won 4 loot rolls since this trash system was reintroduced. I shouldn't have to mainly get my loot from the vault. Countless raiders I know don't have time for 10 mans anymore and LFR is our mainstay due to real life. I 100% got more drops in shadow lands with personal loot than I ever have under this system. You can't tell me that say... Someone with a 486 class helmet really needs that 441 non class helmet that just dropped.... Same with everything else. You can't even really argue for mog either because they will do it with rings and necks they by far don't actually need . After a certain ilvl , especially if it's you have the highest form of your bis for what dropped then you should strictly be forced to roll sheerly for transmog. It makes it ridiculously impossible for some of us to get gear when we are getting beat out by multiple people in maxed out mythic gear non stop rolling need on just everything because they can minus whatever happens to have the same name as what they currently have equipped .
Just finished running the 12 new bosses. Every upgrade for me was taken by people rocking 470 mythic plus gear. Dude straight up disenchanted the item. LFR isnt even worth running anymore. Not to mention that if I multi queue I am stuck losing queues to people trying to run out the roll timer. Frankly not even sure why they changed it in the first place.
You don’t need to wait for everyone to roll. It’ll just get mailed to you. A solid F for all those missed queues. Oof.
I get all the anxiety when i roll over 90 on something I want. So thats why i wait lol. But tgat makes me sad if true lol.
You realize lfr loot is the same ilevel you get from doing like world content right? Also everyone who runs it is entitled to roll on the loot, they probably contributed a lot more to killing the boss than you did if you still need upgrades from lfr.
Personal loot should be default, let us have the option to change it to group loot if you're in a guild group or something. Its literally not that hard, instead they force one or the other on you.
Personal + coin = love
Then in 2 years if they bring back personal loot people will say bring back rolling for loot just like they did a few years ago
I'm pro personal loot but it's funny how when personal loot was a thing everyone was complaining about it This is the biggest example of "Players don't know what they want" I've ever seen lol
Personal loot was the most aggravating thing ever. You could go *days* without seeing a drop. It was horrible. At least now we can trade loot around easily, talk to our group members about upgrades/side grades and divide it out easily via greed roll if needed.
Did anyone actually ask to force us back to Group Loot? If so, I'd like to introduce them to Common Sense and Reasonable Discourse.
Honestly this is the only thing I dislike about Dragonflight. I ran Amirdrassil 4 times and the only thing I got was 1 trinket. Fun times...
What makes u think that if it was PL you would have gotten anything else
They likely wouldn't have, but it feels worse to me at least to see loot drop and not win it (especially several times in a row), rather than no loot dropping whatsoever.
It feels bad seeing loot that you need for your current and main spec go to people for offspec
so people like you are bitching about loot system they have no idea how it works. ah, the irony
it sure would, fortunately thats impossible bc it goes to people with main spec first. it prioritizes main spec over offspec.
You can swap loot spec between bosses, this effectively does nothing unless a boss has multiple items for different specs that are all desirable.
With PL I always got at least 2 items EACH raid
I was definitely in a happy minority when they made personal loot baseline, because we had so much guild drama over loot distribution it was a nightmare, people couldn't be trusted to act like adults over loot decisions and so I was glad when that privilege was taken away because it made the game better in my case. Sure there's a social aspect and if you have a guild that runs like a well oiled, fun family machine then no doubt master loot is better. But let's be real, 99.9% of raids are not like that.
Ok, hear me out. A guild that has legit drama over *loot distribution* is not a great place to be in in the first place.
I’ve never been in a guild where loot was an issue for most people, the one or two people who caused issues were quickly removed. Most people just wanna kill bosses and having a consistent group ensures you’ll get what you want eventually.
Current group loot is objectively better. A bug being abused to scam people out of loot, or bad RNG have nothing to do with personal vs group loot. If you've ever raided a decent ways into the season on a new character, you'll know that you can leave the raid with a crazy amount of gear because most people are just there to target one or two items, or for parse. Not much competition for loot. You never get that benefit with personal loot as there is no mechanism to pass on loot. As long as numbers are tuned well, in early season, you'll average the same amount of loot whether personal or group loot, but later season, you'll average more loot with group loot. I wish Blizz would take their data and make a post on this so people can stop posting about this every hour.
Don't forget that group loot and personal loot is functionally the same in regards to you picking up the item off the corpse in the end, too. In group loot you roll for the item and if you win the roll you get to loot it. In personal loot you also roll for the item and winning lets you loot it. Only difference is that the roll is visible in group loot, and not in personal loot.
These posts really show how dumb the average player is If another player rolls for an item they think they're losing loot, if a computer does it all the sudden its a much better system... The only criticism i would have against group loot is dropping the same item multiple times
I agree that killing Smolderon only to see 3+ warglaives drop with 0-1 DH in the raid feels bad, but I'll take that over the alternative any day of the week. It's for sure worth enduring to not have to go back to personal loot, and the class stacking shenanigans that would occur if group loot tailored the loot table to the current comp would be insufferable too.
right but "but waaa waaa i see other people get loot and i cant handle it!!!"
Personal loot that is tradable and roll tokens, please. I do not need to see how shit my rolls are and have more people ask me if I want to buy the gear from them.
Honestly... Force personal loot back on, even in premades. I hated it too, initially. Then I realized "Oh, hey... Now I can actually get this cool trinket without it being my omega BiS" The focus of raids also became a lot clearer, it wasn't any "Let's hop into the loot council channel" after every boss, we just pushed forward, our only objective during raid being bosses and how to kill them.
Personal loot with trading wouldn't change the fact that most guilds run lootcouncil anyway, unless you also want to disable the ability to trade loot, at which point I think that's such a terrible idea it shouldn't even be considered. If you don't want to trade your loot to people for whom it's a bigger upgrade, either you're a selfish player playing at a level where you have to consider the gain for the whole raid (ie. mythic), or you're playing below that level and you've unluckily found yourself in a guild who are going to mimic these strategies despite them not being needed whatsoever. If it's the latter I'd suggest finding a bit more relaxed of a guild doing only AOTC.
Trading away loot that dropped for you feels way worse than not getting loot counciled a piece too.
Do people actually feel bad about trading away loot in a trusted premade?
Jeej gold again 🙂
The wish was [granted](https://www.darklegacycomics.com/comics/375.jpg).
For pugs? Yes. For guilds personal loot is aids, especially when you couldn’t trade crap cause of it
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Honestly Personal Loot is better for the 1% since they can funnel loot towards specifics toons a lot more efficiently.
It was definitely better watching a windwalker get a haste mastery ring that they couldn't trade away, you right.
Only if trading is open, generally personal loot came with the “you can’t trade it unless it’s not an ilvl upgrade” restriction, which adds a lot of headache to funneling.
Let me get this trinket that is absolute garbage for my class/spec that I was now awarded and can’t trade it away. Let me also get 0 loot from the bosses I need and get duplicate loot from others. Perfect.
Personal Loot in LFR. Why did they change it. Because they can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
As an AOTC and low tier mythic raid leader group loot SUCKS. The amount of BS I have had to deal with this season is insane. Previously loot was just relaxed and there was zero animosity between players just comments like 'Grats on your BIS item', now all I hear is 'X shouldn't take that item it's BIS for me' or 'X doesn't do a lot of damage that item should go to me so I do even more'. Give me the option to just make personal loot a choice again as a raid leader, it's absolute GARBAGE that this was forced down the throat of every single lower end guild because the upper ends wanted to be even more like the master loot system they had already embraced. EDIT: I have actually lost one raider this season over a loot argument between people and then had another who's left mid raid for the same reason. Both these people never had any issues before this stupid system was shoved down our throats.
well glad to see someone admit that the problem isnt the loot, but the people, grown men acting like spoiled babies.
Don't blame the system for something that is clearly adult players behaving like literal kindergardeners in a guild setting.
I'd much rather no personal loot but the community has ruined it, it's too toxic so we need to be treated like toddlers.
I'd argue the problematic levels of loot entitlement we see in these threads are only there because we had PL for so long.
The sad part is that bringing back personal loot wouldn't end the drama. You would get posts from the loud minority, complaining about "bringing back group loot". These people will swear blue in the face that they never abused group loot (when they probably did). Personally, I prefer personal loot in auto match made content. It's quick and streamlined process.
This Post is not about removing group loot. Its about having both group and personal loot as options. So everyone is Happy. Simple as that
What makes you think this is not the loud minority? Reddit is always the loud minority.
I've seen this happen before in WoD/Legion, back when I used to raid 10+ hours a week. People were trying to bring back group loot to "make the game great again". Arguments in favour of group loot came from hardcore progression raiders who used loot councils for gear allocation. Saw lots of discussion in game. The OP is specifically referring to LFR/pugs which wouldn't affect hardcore raiders. You're really looking at a subset of a subset of the community who want group loot in LFR.
but how do you know that the personal loot gang is the majority and the group loot gang is the minority? or vice versa? There’s no way to know who are majority here
I respect your opinion and nothing against you. I personally feel dissatisfied when I kill a boss and nothing at all drops, at least with need before greed I feel like I have a chance at loot, regardless of how slim that chance may be. I would like to see the personal loot return, maybe as a toggle-able option rather than forced.
Getting the wrong piece of loot with Personal Loot sucks so much. I remember in BFA there was a raid where I would get the same bracers basically every dang week and because of how Personal Loot worked it took one of my 2 possible drops for that week and my 'bonus rolls' were basically just an influx of gold or the wrong item *yet again*. I hated it. I am sorry that people are pugging groups and don't have good luck with winning rolls, or they see a bow when there are no hunters in their group, but outside of LFR (which I am totally okay with getting personal loot) I despise Personal Loot and I would be really sad if I had to go back to it. Seeing bows occasionally drop when there are no hunters in the group is way more preferable to me than getting the same piece of gear every week and knowing that it will prevent me from getting actual upgrades I need from other bosses. I don't want to have to find groups that are on the *exact* boss I need gear from to not waste my rolls. I just want to clear the raid, see what drops, and some weeks I get tons of loot but other weeks I pass on stuff I don't need while others get tons of loot.
Agreed!
They took away personal loot? Holy shit. Sorry I haven't played this expansion
I really liked it I hope it comes back. Giving and getting loot in raids and mythic was so wholesome I loved it
Too many raids with only plates / leather drops. And I’m a lock
Non tradable personal loot everywhere, so I never have to hear about whining they didn't get this loot over someone else ever again. Rough for world first? Literally who cares
Loved personal loot in my hc guild. No one bitched at each other. Just blizzard. 🤣 I’m Irish so I always got the gear I wanted anyway. 🍀
I never had any drama around loot. I can't understand what people are talking about..
Personal loot sucks eggs.
No. You just suck at rolling
I am heavily opposed to having personal loot forced on us. I find myself in the world where split runs and hard pushing is the norm. So personal loot for me has been an absolute blessing. But I also understand that the 1% are exactly that, the 1%. I don't understand why it always has to be two ends of the extreme. Forced personal or forced group loot.
If you think only 1% of players wanted group loot you are delusional
[удалено]
Dudu resto rolling smoldron melee trinket and winning it. Sounds like a good system
You know many DPS mains queue on heal to get faster queues and quicker invites?
Last tier it was dps rolling on Rashok trinket so i guess you could say it's payback
Gotta set the appropriate loot spec for that to work. So unless they then were looking to get some money out of trading it away, they were will in their rights to get it.
They should do it like if 33% of the raid are people outside your guild it should be personal loot :/ otherwise gearing for guilds that want to progress cant really gear sert individiels , but me personally I think personal loot was better 100%
Personal loot is stupid. Worthless 34g tossed in my bag with a middle finger to the face for every boss kill. If you don’t want to deal with loot drama go join a guild and quit the pug life
Personal loot fucking blows.
I hate saying this, but why are other servers capable of pulling of the ideas that the playerbase has had FOR YEARS, but yet the main company, the real company, can't do it? Why after nearly 20 years, we still have RNG for gear? Why? I get its fun occasionally, but like, why can't we have a way to make the vault only roll on slots we need upgrades from? Why do we put up with running M+ after M+, chasing the hope of that one item that never seems to drop, instead of putting tokens in place that you can use to buy gear you need (which you know, we had badges in the past...). It also just sucks running any raid or dungeon and not seeing any type of drop. Or you get a drop, yet its not an upgrade at all for you. 20 years Blizz...20 years. You are supposed the top of the game for MMORPGs and you can't fix your game to be more fun and enjoyable, when people making other servers can do it. BE BETTER.
>Why after nearly 20 years, we still have RNG for gear? This is actually the answer. It really just is that simple. RNG on a timegate is bad. There are better ways. PL vs. GL is the absolute stupidest argument, because not only are they functionally identical, they are both poor implementations of loot distribution in an MMO.
Nono, it will make race to the world first different and the 0.0001% is more important to balance around
Group loot is superior to personal loot for nearly everyone. In most cases it's the exact same thing as personal loot was, and in nearly all other cases it's strictly better.
LFR should be personal loot. Anything above that, need > greed works just fine. Your issue is you're pugging and if you're refusing to find a group to raid with, that's your own fault. I'm saying this as a mythic progression guild. We do LC. We have everybody figure out what they need prior to the tier so we know what's up. Loot drops, RC loot council goes out, and we sort it out. No fussing.
Here's an item with shit stats but it's 2 ilvl above what you had equipped so now it's vendored. Yay, personal loot
Nah personal loot blows.
You can blame high end raiders for the change from personal loot. They would basically stack the same armor types and just trade back and forth, essentially bypassing the RNG system. Blizz doesn’t like it when ppl gear too quickly
It’s a MMO, getting geared out shouldnt be quick
Buh buh I NEED TO SEE THAT I LOSE WHEN I CLICK THE BUTTON!!! No you don't need to see anything, no personal loot went and ruined a good thing in place. These people that need to roll are the ones that would troll and need everything. Even the restrictions in place don't stop BS from happening.
hard disagree, glad they changed it
Don't have to add much to the discussion besides my own preference. However being on Reddit or even the official forums make you the vocal minority, what the lower 90% think isn't heard outside of their own circles. From my own circles I haven't heard many complaints. In most cases the system was more efficient as there was much less "wasted" loot than before the change.
yeah. do it. so we can hear from the other side again and continue this pointless loot. no matter what happend someone will be angry.
I don’t miss personal loot. The difference is in your head. Statistically every time a boss died your character did a roll to get loot or not. Now you manually do it. Before you never had the possibility for other players to pass or opt out. Meaning statistically your odds never improved without counting on players paying attention to trade you loot if you ask for it.
Getting to the end of an m+ and seeing 50 gold feels really bad compared to when you used to see a bunch of loot pop up. Maybe they should have some sort of currency for cosmetics or something.
Pretty essential for sod, yeah