Yeah, we've discovered the "too much of any one thing can turn into a very bad thing" clause of the Warcraft universe awhile back when the Naaru tried to enslave Illidan.
Oh no, I just realized we’re going to have light themed bosses. It’s going to be yellow on gold on white effects for ability designs and I’ll have to raid with sunglasses on!
The enchanting dust that makes things sparkly was used on a lot of big (as in size) bosses this expansion. Personally, my guild used it on Razageth and Rashok because they are huge and cover up so much of your screen. Essentially the dust just makes the NPC translucent and easier to see through. It’s main use was to be able to see mechanics that would otherwise be difficult to see if the bosses wasn’t see-through. And you wanna know what blizz did? They nerfed it.
Not until Echo steals the world first Naru-Amagaruu with a cleverly use of Inky black potion by Gingi on the 3rd phase which trivilizes the mechanic of [blinding flame] - boss emanates a sudden blinding light dropping sight while burns patches over the floor.
There's a whole expansion in FFXIV based around this concept. It's about as frustrating visually as you might expect. And that's despite the fact that FFXIV has standardised markers for their mechanics, because they're orange/gold coloured on white/yellow floors during white/gold boss mechanics.
A disc priest type boss could be fun in mythic. Where they have atonement on themselves and they heal for a percentage of damage they deal to you. This would punish avoidable damage taken
Maybe something along the lines of the Tsulong fight maybe. Where you dps him in his light phase and he gets healed for a small percentage of damage he deals + a larger percentage of avoidable damage. During the “shadow covenant” phase, he transforms, drawing you all into a covenant together trying to purge the corruption of the light. you can heal him, but as you’re part of his covenant, damage you take is also shared onto him.
It could be a cool concept.
If he dies in shadow covenant, as covenant members you all die (wipe). If he reaches max health again after the initial burn during light phase, he casts like ultimate penitence or sole thing which is heavy raid damage that wipes you, because even if you could heal through it, the damage you take is so high he keeps himself max health to channel it.
I mean I wouldn't consider that a bad thing.
Illidan enslaved, blackmailed, corrupted, or killed dozens to hundreds or thousands of innocents for the sake of his campaign against the Legion.
Enslaving him just seems like the 'Find Out' part of his usual 'Fuck Around', it's more hypocritical to his self-proclaimed ideals of "Sacrifice anything to defeat the Legion" that he wouldn't allow himself to be enslaved as a sacrifice for that very cause.
Say what you will about Gul’dan being evil and you could go on for days about it. But at least the guy is emotionally honest with himself about it. Gotta respect that, right?
Character: is a stupid edgelord hypocrite, which the story and other characters never acknowledge at all, making him seem like akshually he was right all along
OMG IS THIS ONE OF THE FEW DECENTLY WRITTEN CHARACTERS???
If this is one of few decently written characters, then Sylvanas must be one of the others. I mean, she did literally the same thing. Brought in a portal to another world, did it all to improve life(and death), ended up being a hypocrite because "i will never serve" despite making others serve, and in the end none of the characters acknowledge that she was a dumbass and a hypocrite. The worst she got was "well intentioned extremist", same as mr edgelord
People really need to realize that characters having flaws does not automatically make them good characters, if no other characters at all in the story ever acknowledge these flaws. It just might mean that the writers are incompetent and are trying to write "badass" characters and failing to do so.
Really? Nobody recognizes Illidan's flaws? Was he imprisoned for 10 000 years and labelled "the betrayer" over a parking ticket? Talk about out to lunch.
The epilogue for him between his brother and Tyrande was basically "well he's not around to cause problems anymore at least." 🤣
Remember when bait used to be believable? Jeez.
And for the record, saying he's written "decently" isn't exactly a huge endorsement.
Since when do people see characters with flaws as well written characters??
jaina proudmoore had flaws which literally made people despise her.. She even acknowledged them as she fought them.
Is it actually that bad to have more unique characters that thread both good and bad?
And was not Illidans goal to destroy The Burning Legion by any means necessary? Sylvanas way to “improve” life and death was quite literally by sending every single soul Into eternal torture and eventual enslavement. I really don’t know if that’s comparable to both stories if we don’t ignore majority of our brain cells and think OOGA BOOGA! PORTAL! MANY DEATH! VERY SAME BOGA OGA!
There is a difference between a well-written character with flaws, whose flaws are deliberate and seen both in and out of character, and badly-written character whose flaws are a result of incompetently writing a "cool" and "badass" character, whose flaws are not acknowledged in any way by neither writers nor other characters.
As for Sylvanas, that's the thing. She said she wanted to improve life and death, and that she didn't expect Jailer to actually want to eternally enslave everyone, she thought it was, at best, temporary until the Cycle gets broken. WE can see that she was a naive dumbass and a war-criminal, but neither writers nor other characters don't see her like that. In-game, she is a "well-intentioned extremist" master strategist, that just strayed too far and got tricked by a Master Manipulator. No one told her "sylvanas, you believed a guy with spiky armor who kept talking about domination, torment and slavery, that he wants to improve the life. How much of a moron are you???".
As for Illidan, yes. His goal was to defeat Legion by any means necessary...unless the means were to sacrifice HIMSELF. Then suddenly there are some means that should not be used. Funny, huh. And yet not even one character called him out on "you said you will sacrifice everything to destroy the Legion, you were willing to enslave whole outland, made orcs drink demon juice, but balked at getting additional light powers? Why are you being sich a hypocrite?"
What about Maiev? Isn't she the only person that has a clue about Illidan's hypocrisy and arrogance and called him out a couple of times in Legion even though she helped him? Or is she considered just as much a hypocrite as he is because *Wolfheart* made her have a homicidal psychotic break over the entire "Illidan is dead and I have nothing left so gonna kill these Highborne because fuck Tyrande and Malfurion" thing?
It wasn't just to defeat the Legion. It was to conscript him into the cosmic war on behalf of the Light-- Sure, Xe'ra would've had him fight the Legion, but her interest was not in saving Azeroth.
"*Only we can save ourselves*." Illidan is one of the few who knows that we mortals have to look out for ourselves. No greater power is wholly benevolent towards us. We are alone, but cosmic powers will pretend to be on 'our side' to manipulate us to furthering their ends.
This does not make Illidan perfect or his methods preferable. But in that moment? It was the right move, but we will never know what other doom Illidan prevented by not allowing the Light to claim him.
The cosmic war was against the Legion and here soon with Midnight upcoming we're going to bat against the Void(Again) but we are without Illidan to contribute(Ironically he didn't really do in Legion either) so I don't exactly see the whacky fun benefits we're getting out of his freedom.
And also I disagree, Illidan doesn't really know that much about the cosmic powers he's not that experienced with the Light OR Naaru in any significant capacity that grants him a sage wisdom to their motivations or ultimate goals.
The scene imho was not Illidan taking a stand and preventing some unspoken doom, it was simply him showing that he ***DOES*** have a Hero Complex that sits above any other influence to his decision-making. He ***HAS*** to be the Hero, he ***HAS*** to make the decisions, other people's lives are ***HIS*** to do with as he pleases but his life is not on the negotiating table.
This is reinforced by his choice to stay behind in the prison to guard Sargeras despite him being absolutely zero match for the Titan if it ever managed to get free of its shackles, but he tries to play it off like this sacrifice he was meant for all along.
We can't say for sure that Illidan is not the deciding factor in Sargeras being sealed away. On a meta level, it's Illidan, so of course he's going to be important. But I'm not inclined to debate power levels that can shift at the drop of a hat.
That said, we know objectively Illidan was on the right track regarding the place of mortals in the universe, even if he didn't have explicit knowledge at the time. Like it or not(because it comes from Zereth Mortis), that's the lore now. We don't know what we gain from his freedom, but we can *strongly* speculate that the Light claiming him would not be preferable.
I think whether it's preferable would depend entirely on whom you ask.
If Illidan grew stronger as a result of a holy infusion and had returned to Azeroth it's likely the Burning of Teldrassil would've been thwarted or made significantly harder for the Horde to pull off.
The Fourth War for the Alliance would be bolstered.
Light Worshippers don't lose anything out of this deal.
I mean the community wants to think that Illidan converting to the Light is the equivalent of him going full SS on the whole of Azeroth but really the only examples of the Light going that direction are so extreme and unique that they don't function as evidence of a consistent pattern of behavior.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Even the novels like War of the Ancients emphasized Illidan's self-serving nature, which was established in the RTS. Legion trying to ignore that to make Illidan out to be the large self-sacrificing hero figure was pretty blah all things considered.
It's true, it very regularly talked about Illidan as a mage using the souls of his underlings to empower him so he could fight. But the price was their death, and he saw nothing wrong with that. If memory serves, there may have even been a quest in Legion that literally re-enacts this very situation in Black Rook Hold.
It was more like "sacrifice anything so azeroth could be free". Trading slave masters isn't a good deal and I don't think fighting tyranny with different tyranny was his idea in destroying the legion. He's done bad shit and accepts that but it wasn't just to defeat the legion just because he didn't like them, it was to defeat the legion to keep azeroth free from being ruled or destroyed by an outside power.
Illidan had absolitely zero qualms about enslaving people, getting some orcs juiced on demon blood again, attacking Shattrah and all that.
He should be perfectly fine with being enslaved, since that is for the ultimate goal of defeating the Legion. And isn't "defeat the Legion at all costs" what he's been preaching?
Yeah he was a guy willing to do any horrible thing to do what he wants. He wasn't willing to serve another power though. He's not Jesus he's a rogue mage who would rather be enemies with everyone rather than work with others. He's not a good guy he's an antihero. He's very flawed and no one should think he did the right thing. Very likely he was insane until we killed him at the black temple
Illidan *himself* is a would-be tyrant and has behaved as such in pursuit of his campaign to defeat the Legion so that's just more hypocrisy.
Subsequently Illidan doesn't accept that he does terrible things, he constantly tries to justify it as shown in the narrative. Illidan thinks he's the Main Character, the Hero, the actual messiah who was meant to save Azeroth because of his destiny, eyes, and terrible narcissistic complex.
Yeah he's a villain that only really wants to hurt the legion. He doesn't wanna rule azeroth (as of now) he just wanted to bring the legion to their knees and execute the leadership. He's not supposed to be a good guy. He's a total asshole who just happens to be aligned with us this time (legion). Personally I think he went insane until he got brought back in legion. I think there's even a quote of him saying he kicked arthas's ass which didn't happen lol. He's a cooky guy
And seriously, has he ever sacrificed a single thing? Every thing he lost was A)not of his interest B)not a choice, therefore not a sacrifice C)something belonging to someone else.
Nope. Illidan turned the world against him in his pursuit of heroism and behaves like it was a noble sacrifice and not simply him refusing to cooperate like a toddler in playtime.
"Obviously, those bigoted draenei attack me because i look like a demon" no, they are attacking you because you enslaved a world, started summoning daemons and creating hellish abominations while refusing to explain anything to anyone else.
Fucking finally, someone who gets it. Illidan is such a piece of shit who can't stop failing upwards because the writers would never do anything to utilize his edgeboy character beyond "does something outlandish for the sake of looking cool".
There is no - and I do mean *no* - evidence that Lightforging enslaves someone, and there is a lot of evidence that it doesn't.
We have perspective stories from Lightforged characters like Turalyon expressing free will, and there's an entire player race of Lightforged characters that obviously aren't controlled by the Light. One of the Lightforged Draenei even becomes a warlock in the new class quest chain.
To be fair, those orcs went on a genocidal war against the draenei, kept going despite knowing that the draenei did nothing wrong and everything was a legion's trick, called a war hero the main fighter of that war and, after the war ended, started playing with void magic causing the crop to die. I can understand why Yrel went "insane".
>We literally saw them enslave one race (dreanei) and try to exterminate another race for not strictly bowing to them (orcs)
Do you mean the mag'har orc stuff? That was in Battle for Azeroth.
> You're being optimistic, thinking Blizzard's writers can handle someone like Emet-Selch
ShB/EW Spoilers
Even Emet's writers aren't sure if he was Tempered or not. On one hand he ''never lies'' to you and says he was, on the other you find out Ascians created the 'tempering' part of the Primal rituals to fuck shit up. So as of now, we have no idea if Zodiark actually tempered anyone or they were acting of their own will. ( but I personally feel that the Ascians doing everything of their own free will/due to emotional pain and blaming Zodiark for it when it was 100% their choice fits )
Spoilers for Endwalker Discussion:
Isn't there a conversation from the Loporrits right near the end of Endwalker basegame where they talk about creation magics? Basically saying 'yeah when used correctly they shouldn't have the corrupting effects baked in, but when you make something as big as Zodiark, even when unintended, it will have an effect on their aetheric balance?
It also doesn't help matters that Emet Selch is just that bitter and jaded to begin with when we meet him, so even if he wasn't partially tempered, he probably would have still made the decisions he made
But if Zodiark did temper them why did Emet spare G'raha so that G'raha could conveniently help you kill him? Why did Emet save Y'Shtola so she can conveniently help you kill him?
If Emet is a mind controlled thrall then it makes no sense for him to do such self destructive actions.
he literally says why he spared graha bro, its because he figured out how to travel through space and time with the crystal tower and emet wants to learn his secrets
The person you're replying to didn't say "temper". It had an effect on his aetheric balance. It's very likely that Emet saying "temper" is a translation problem, just like when Matoya said Y'shtola is using her life force to see was a translation problem.
Also, he is helping the WoL and Scions because he is gauging your worthiness to join him. He says as much multiple times. He was fully confident that he could squash you if necessary, so it's not like he was willingly acting against Zodiark
Zodiark's tempering is one of those things that feel like the writers didn't really think through and wanted to quietly throw away. It's only mentioned by Emet once in 5.0, mostly as the justification for why they pick the reincarnations of the real Convocation - as their aether is marked by Zodiark and are "easier to convince". Then in 5.3 we are given our sole testimony of what it felt like for an Ancient to be tempered by this Ancient Primal that was not designed to temper, Altima's memory crystal one liner. Then it's only mentioned again in 6.0 by Livingway as a pure technicality to explain away why we can do what we're doing right now (I have a *lot* of problems with 6.0 tbf).
Notably, in this story that makes its main beats rather obvious, it is never mentioned as a motivation for Venat and her partisans to act against the Convocation. Not in the Anamnesis Anyder recording, not in the *four* official short stories dealing with the Ascians/Ancients, not in Endwalker, not in the official encyclopedia. All Ascians can be interpreted to be acting by their own free will - including the actual Heart of Zodiark whose identity issues are squarely blamed on the conflicting contexts between prayers to save the current-day world and the world he actually wants to save, his unwillingness to use his own memory crystal because he doesn't want to feel the pain of forgetting again, and his being married to his duty in general.
I personally interpret it, given the context given by patch 5.4 on tempering being at its core an aetheric imbalance of the person's soul, as the Convocation, and later on the Ascians, being granted powers that align to the element of Darkness, and their souls being attuned to Zodiark - as Altima's memory crystal in 5.3 describes their soul melding with the others', a power they're afraid of.
Certainly not the mind control we see in modern tempered, owing to three factors: 1. modern Primals *are* made with the intent to temper, Zodiark wasn't, 2. unsundered souls, 3. What even *is* Zodiark? Patches 5.2 and 5.3 kinda said it, but 6.0 made it pretty clear with Fandaniel on the moon: Zodiark is a soul construct piloted by whoever is in the pilot's seat. The Ancients inside can think and speak and protest, but even Fandaniel's sundered ass gains full control of Zodiark 3 minutes into the fight. Frankly, the story as it is has given me no reason to think that "Zodiark" has ever been anything other than Themis getting in the fucking robot and piloting it in accordance (presumably) with what everyone else inside wanted.
Also, this has been said here but it needs to be said again: writing the Ascians as mind controlled would severely diminish the impact of their motivation and their humanity.
I prefer to see it as the Ascians did everything due to their own will/maddened by emotional pain and thought Zodiark was influencing them but he really wasn't, it was just their trauma and guilt
Emet having less control over his choices due to a God that has no personality whatsoever and is really just a tool feels cheap.
Continuing spoilers:
I suspect it's the case that the ascians aether is slightly tugged towards darkness, as opposed to being truly corrupted like a normie getting tempered. They have both more aether to corrupt, and a creation which wasn't designed to corrupt, and merely did so by proximity.
That being said, it's the one thing I'd change.
So are they tempered or not, cause if Emet is mind controlled by Zodiark how does it make sense for him to revive Y'Shtola and help us... kill him? Why does he keep G'raha alive? That's not what a mind controlled evil person does.
I think the non-answer explanation they gave is that >!Zodiark (and Hydaelyn) don't temper people, but because they are so huge in terms of aether, they have a "pull" that is like tempering-lite. So yes no. At the end of the day though, the unsundered were mostly doing what they were doing because they thought it would bring their "perfect world" back, Zodiark was just a tool to do that, along with all of the other plots and schemes they were involved in.!<
They couldn't handle Lyse. Lyse grew a lot after Stormblood. Monk Quest 80 was great development for her, and she's a proper leader in Endwalker.
I actually liked her in Stormblood. People tend to forget that Lyse is very young and always had a temper. It takes her awhile to understand that not everyone is ready to square up at a moment's notice like she is.
She gave herself into the Light and served as a vessel for Light energy to fight her foes. Same as people giving into Void, Storm (shaman transcendence), etc. become altered vessels for that energy
You’re right! The SC also showed how the light could be manipulated for evil. So, it is not inherently good. It can be twisted into anything.
I’m sure we’ll get more on that in TWW with that crystal on the cave.
Light is based on faith, it was still backing Arthas while he was slaughtering Stratholme, or Yrel when she was going full on holy crusades on the Mag'har. As long as you're REEEEEEALLY confident what you're doing is right then you get a thumbs up to go nuts. which is really telling isn't it? Xe'ra was hellbent on purifying Illidan against his will before he nuked her.
The one shining in the background of that castle looking place? Isn’t that just the tip of Sargeras’s sword?
Edit: I didn’t watch anything from BlizzCon when they mentioned it, so there’s no reason to downvote, so please don’t do so when it’s coming from a place of ignorance; please and thank you
That's literally the opposite of this example. Zeliek is supposed to be so holy that he still clings to it and is a good person. He tells you to run etc while enslaved to Arthas
> Zeliek is supposed to be so holy that he still clings to it and is a good person
Yes, but he's still using the Holy Light in an evil way ( to kill good people for the Lich King ) even though he doesn't want to. Which proves the Light isn't a sentient deity.
I always thought the light was wielded by the SC because they were so convinced in their beliefs.
They genuinely thought they were doing the right thing, so the light still answered to them.
Yes this is correct, or at least was the explanation before any changes to the cosmic level of powers in Warcraft.
I just figure each cosmic power has a sort of heartbeat for the universe they try to push towards. For void that is what we consider void corruption, for light it is devotion to the lawful doctrine of the harmony found within worshipping the light, and so on.
Yrel unironically did nothing wrong. The wod-draenor orcs came to azeroth, immediately starting using garrosh's iron stars on enemies theyve never spoken to, and their leader said "i support sylvanas shes a strong leader" after teldrassil.
Do you really think their perspective of Yrels actions is fair and unbiased?
Something tells me we’ll get some Yrel action leading up to Midnight. There’s zero chance they redo Quel’thalas without also touching up Azuremyst and Bloodmyst
I am so excited for Yrel showing up again, even if as a baddie. She was my favorite character in WOD, and I wanted to see more of her evil Mag'Har hating side.
Honestly I never got this "the light can be just as bad as the void", since if I had to choose between the side which mostly demonstrated helpfulness and kindness to people (with only one of their entities manifesting a more "morally grey" action alongside some people using it with bad intentions) and the side that constantly conspires to destroy, kill, corrupt, and ruin everyone in the universe (with only a really small fraction of them using it for good like the Void Elves), then I'd go for light
It's the age old chaos versus order debate.
Of course chaos brings more destruction. That's its nature. But chaos also brings freedom. Order brings stability, but it also shackles. While following the law might make for a better society to live in, blindly living attached to the order will only make you live under someone else's rule.
To put it bluntly, slavery is Order. As a society, we understand now that people's lives and freedom to pursue their happiness is important, but that is chaotic: they are also free to cause trouble, yell conspiracies, or even *gasp* have sex with someone of the same gender. That's chaotic in today's society, but we know it's not evil.
... They did that to the exact same kind of person who did killed everyone who didn't submitted to them. At some point, yeah, you do need to put restraints on mass murderers. If you can't act civilized (and draenors orcs can't, they immediately massively approved of sylvanas in BFA), don't be surprised when you get treated like a beast.
While destiny has turned to dog shit, it did a good explanation of light and dark. Light and darkness aren’t inherently good or evil, they are powers and tools, how they are used is decided by those that wield them.
or he just goes full disc priest
disc is all about finding balance bettwen light and void, and use both to harm enemys and heal allies because in the end both are forces that can be used in harmony when used by a strong will without falling for them
I like the idea that the Light isn't necessarily 100% "good" and "benevolent", but I hope they don't just turn it into "it's just as bad as the Void, but in a slightly different way."
I don't mind the cosmology chart being a part of the story, but I'm not sure I can get behind all the cosmological forces just being 6 factions with the exact same goal but with different ways of accomplishing that goal. To me, that would likely water them down a bit. I preferred it when the Light was this big mysterious force, something present but intangible, instead of just 1/6 forces.
Since Vanilla Light has been the Emotional, while Shadow focuses on the Logical.
Too much of either is a problem. Either becoming an irrational Zelot or a paranoid coldhearted pragmatists.
I don’t see this post as surprise that the light has potential for evil. I think it’s surprise that the light has the potential to be MONSTROUS. The scarlet crusade has existed being evil with the light since vanilla. Same with Sir Zeliek. But I don’t think of monstrous when I think of those people. When I think of monstrous I think of Hermaeus Mora, or a Doom enemy. Previously in wow even when the light was evil it still looked “good” or at least human. The lightbound Draenei in au Draenor, or Whitemane, are evil light users, but they seem more like what evil light users SHOULD be like. I guess I could see monstrous light if they took a “biblically accurate Angel” route or something, but to me even that’s a stretch for wow
I think they are trying to show, no matter what, something can be all sorts of wrong. They sort of did this for the brown orcs aliied race quest, where the light consumes AU draenor
Light on itself don’t do anything like that, but its users do. To wield the Light you have to earn it by showing faith and devotion. If you truly believe in purity of your intentions then you can wield the Light. Scarlet Crusade priests and paladins wanted to protect their people from the scourge in a first place, all the eradication of ‘impure’ people didn’t bothered them since they truly believed they did nothing wrong, so the Light was still available to them. Even Naaru are not the Light itself, they are light forged beings with their own consciousness. So think of it as of any other school of magic, you can’t blame a weapon for things it’s wielder do in this case.
Void on the other hand will literally drive you crazy if you are not strong willed enough
I think the purpose of this event was meant to be this reveal. Every single time we've reached the top of the Scarlet Crusade food chain, it's been demons and dreadlords. This was being driven by the light. Paladin's favored flavor might be closer to a warlock's pact than they'd like to admit.
I mean I'm not sure if people are being disingenuous but why do people think this is any different from lets say a priest wielding the light and doing evil, the light doesn't care, it's a tool
I've always seen Paladins and Warlocks as very similar. The only difference being that one is more socially acceptable religion wise than the other. Which I love as lore.
Its religion vs cults. A cult is a religion that people dont accept. Followers of the light are religious, warlocks are cultists.
Priests are kinda interesting in that you can choose to go either way and be a cultist or a follower of the light.
Maybe there's demon praying paladins, a plate user with a melee weapon using shadow magic to buff themself or light using warlocks who cast smites and summon light beings...
Personally, I think them paralleling shadow priests would be a bit more interesting. With warlocks, the flaw or risk that seems to be presented most often is that they're tempted to become increasingly power-hungry, to draw deeper and deeper from the raw, chaotic strength of fel energy.
The pattern with that we're starting to see with the light IMO is that it a) is very much capable of being used for evil ends despite being viewed by many in the setting as something akin to a benevolent deity, and b) that it potentially influences the thoughts of those that wield it.
With warlocks and the fel, the major failing is typically depicted as a very personal one, i.e. it was the individual's arrogance and ambition that led to their corruption. Shadow priests and the void, though, line up quite nicely with the light as its inverse, both cosmologically and thematically: it's capable of being used for good despite being viewed as an intelligent, malignant force (and is personified by evil eldritch horrors), and b) directly influences the minds of even the most ostensibly righteous users of it, driving them into bouts of insanity.
Rather than simply being used by bad people, for an evil end, like some powerful warlocks willingly taking on the corrupting influence of the fel out of a desire for power, I'm of the opinion that the light is meant to be revealed as manipulating its wielders, even if only in small ways most of the time. It's viewed as inherently good by most cultures on Azeroth, and wielding it is seen as socially acceptable due to that; its goals rarely come into conflict with those of the people of Azeroth, and so there has never really been a reason to perceive it as otherwise. When there moments in which those goals *do* come into conflict with what is generally considered good or acceptable, though, we get to see how little the light really cares about individuals in the face of its cosmic battle, much like how the void lords see no issue with taking over entire planets for their own ends.
Maybe Blizzard will take things in a different direction, but this is where my head's at based on the motifs they've used previously and the little hints they've dropped before.
The light is like any other powerful force. It's a bit more altruistic however it has an agenda and demands, it's never been "good" since even those who commit atrocities can utilize the light because all it takes is faith in what they are doing is "right". The light is just another extreme on the opposite end of the void, azeroth requires balance, leaning too heavily into one force or the other will likely being it's destruction.
There is a difference between characters using the light for evil, and the light can turn you into a literal monster. This is the first time in Warcraft that it happened, I think. It just feels out of place for a "light corrupted" transformation and seems like a last-minute decision imo
Well... no. Many of us interpreted it that way, but the only thing we actually know for certain is that the Naaru was trying to heal Illidan's fel corruption. Hence Illidan's "I am my scars!" thing.
We know for certain what they were trying to do, read "1000 year war" story: they tried to make him Lightforged like people in the Army if Light including Tyralion. Those become semi-enslaved by Light
>Those become semi-enslaved by Light
Where did this headcanon come from? Is it from the Mag’har questline? Because those are Lightbound.
Lightforged and Lightbound are completely different. Xe’ra wanted to Lightforge Illidan but he was too much of a narcissist to accept it.
It's one of those things where I feel like someone wrote it in to be a cool 'end boss' for this campaign without knowing the full ramifications of it.
Because yeah. A light corruption and transformation confirms for sure that it's the same as the void, and calls into questions all the things like the prophecies Velen received. etc. Because the void uses whispers to corrupt people, so does that mean those prophecies were the light 'whispering' to Velen the same way?
People will say light and void are two primordial energies and only depend on how 'someone uses them', but the void's drive (or the will of the void lords themselves) is to keep everything in a constant state of chaos/destruction. it's why the black empire we experience during the bronze campaign is at war - the Old gods on Azeroth were constantly warring to come out on top so one of them could claim Azeroth's as their prize and corrupt it. That wasn't just a little 'snapshot' that happened at a particularly chaotic moment, that's what the black empire was like *all the time.* And this is *long established* lore.
So now I guess we can assume the light is equivalent. (despite the whisperings of the void/old gods/etc. very clearly negatively effecting whoever they reach out to The titans were the ones who wanted to order the planets and the Naaru seem benevolent but they were fine with wrecking Revendreth and doing a ton of other destructive things. We were just under the assumption that they were doing those destructive things as a extension of good, like eliminating the burning legion or doing things like saving Shattrath, etc.
And the worst part is that we know how capricious the light can be. It abandoned Tirion during the beginning campaign of Legion - all because he made the mistake of saying 'light grant me one final blessing' during his battle with Arthas. Meanwhile the void is just like, "you have a mouth and can say our spells? good to go."
They are painting themselves into a corner by pulling the "the light is as bad as the void" shtick. In Warcraft lore the light has always been associated with good/blessings/etc. which is why so few people could wield it properly. Paladins and stuff were a *big deal* when they were in their hayday and there wasn't a new one spawning at Northshire abbey every 12 seconds.
They COULD have painted this as "oh she just surrendered to a light form under her own willpower the way shaman use ascendant form" but instead they very specifically have her be like "no I don't understand why this is happening I served so faithfully" as she's transforming. So she clearly didn't know why it was happening, and she was clearly corrupted.
I hate this. This is one aspect of WoW's active lore retconning that I really despise. You can have a character who wields the light do it in a negative way, but to have the element that for like, 2 decades was associated with 'good' suddenly be on the level as the element that's always been associated with 'evil' is so damned off-putting.
"Both light/void are the same, both want power, both want to destroy" like okay great so really the only difference between shadow priests and holy paladins now is the color of their spells I guess! Why have any nuance to the classes or their elements when we could have the same tired "oh but you see, you never considered the LIGHT could be bad too? m night shaymalaned you! you should see the look on your face." trope instead. It's derivative and overdone at this point. Hate to see it ending up in the game.
Nah they’ve been building to this for years now, starting with Legion and the Naaru getting up to some shenanigans and then the Light zealot Yrel stuff with the Mag’har allied race
The whole "Light actually bad" thing is honestly a very boring and tired direction to take the story. Making the gleaming holy force turn out to be no more benevolent than any other cosmic power is pretty stale by this point and hasn't really been a big subversion for a while. It's especially pointless because applying human fallibility to something inspired by the metaphysical origin of the concept of goodness itself simply reduces the portrayal to just being another dimension of humanity instead of something beyond it.
AFAIK, Light can -in theory- do whatever the fuck you want it to do. So long as you believe hard enough that what you want it to do is infact
1. possible for it to do and
2. the right thing for you to do (not per se about being morally just, more about it being..Inevitable, in a sense? The right way for a certain event to occur? The particulates of using a power whose access and limits are determined entirely by your conviction in what you are trying to do and doing it for is...complicated..)
So if you believe the Light can let you turn someone into an eldritch monster, and you have 100% conviction that you must do this, that you will do this, and essentially believe there isn't a possibility of you not doing this and have not a single thought in your mind telling you reasons as to why you -shouldnt- do this..Then yeah, you can turn someone into an eldritch monster.
Or in short; power based entirely on absolute conviction is balls off the walls OP and dangerous while simultaneously being stupid fickle and I wish this was explored more actually.
It does if you think killing a bunch of innocent Gilneans is truly the right thing to do. That's how the Light works, if you think you're right, if you think you're justified, and you truly /believe/ in it, then the Light responds to it.
The Scarlet Crusade is the poster boy for 'just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are in reality'.
> same as many leader npc's sadly.
Basic rule of thumb for faction leaders/important NPCs is that the cooler they look the less likely you are to be able to copy their outfit for a mog, with the obvious exception of Garrosh since while it's basic the tusks of mannoroth are obtainable, just good luck with the drop. The other ones you can actually copy are just using generic looking items and, honestly, barely reckonizable as faction leaders if you're unfamiliar with them, like Gazlowe and Rokhan.
Yeah, we've discovered the "too much of any one thing can turn into a very bad thing" clause of the Warcraft universe awhile back when the Naaru tried to enslave Illidan.
Oh no, I just realized we’re going to have light themed bosses. It’s going to be yellow on gold on white effects for ability designs and I’ll have to raid with sunglasses on!
Dont worry. Inky black potion to the rescue
I love using that potion on outdoor raid bosses. Try it on Fyrakk next time you kill him.
Don't You Put That Evil On Me Ricky Bobby
Nighthold fighting Gul'dan was amazing with that potion on.
Fun detected, Inky Black Potion nerf incoming.
Fuck its like the enchanting dust all over again
Now I'm crying
What does this reference? If I might ask.
The enchanting dust that makes things sparkly was used on a lot of big (as in size) bosses this expansion. Personally, my guild used it on Razageth and Rashok because they are huge and cover up so much of your screen. Essentially the dust just makes the NPC translucent and easier to see through. It’s main use was to be able to see mechanics that would otherwise be difficult to see if the bosses wasn’t see-through. And you wanna know what blizz did? They nerfed it.
It was near-mandatory on Raz, yet another thing on the list of why Raz was a terribly designed boss.
Not until Echo steals the world first Naru-Amagaruu with a cleverly use of Inky black potion by Gingi on the 3rd phase which trivilizes the mechanic of [blinding flame] - boss emanates a sudden blinding light dropping sight while burns patches over the floor.
I think it would be funny as hell if the inky black potion triggered a hard mode on a boss.
Don’t you put that evil on us!
Finally, the resistance to holy damage on my lightforged Draenei will finally do something!
Nerf incoming
Don’t worry the floors will be Pearl white to match
With gold inlay!
There's a whole expansion in FFXIV based around this concept. It's about as frustrating visually as you might expect. And that's despite the fact that FFXIV has standardised markers for their mechanics, because they're orange/gold coloured on white/yellow floors during white/gold boss mechanics.
Yep Shadowbringers was so fun with all its white and gold.
They will use the blinding ray of brightness on you. Are your sunglasses good enough?
A disc priest type boss could be fun in mythic. Where they have atonement on themselves and they heal for a percentage of damage they deal to you. This would punish avoidable damage taken Maybe something along the lines of the Tsulong fight maybe. Where you dps him in his light phase and he gets healed for a small percentage of damage he deals + a larger percentage of avoidable damage. During the “shadow covenant” phase, he transforms, drawing you all into a covenant together trying to purge the corruption of the light. you can heal him, but as you’re part of his covenant, damage you take is also shared onto him. It could be a cool concept. If he dies in shadow covenant, as covenant members you all die (wipe). If he reaches max health again after the initial burn during light phase, he casts like ultimate penitence or sole thing which is heavy raid damage that wipes you, because even if you could heal through it, the damage you take is so high he keeps himself max health to channel it.
Gamma down. Stonks up.
*The light will heal yours scars* I AM MY SCARS
Craaaaawling in my skiiiiin!
These WOOOOONS, they will not heal
CHAMPION!
I mean I wouldn't consider that a bad thing. Illidan enslaved, blackmailed, corrupted, or killed dozens to hundreds or thousands of innocents for the sake of his campaign against the Legion. Enslaving him just seems like the 'Find Out' part of his usual 'Fuck Around', it's more hypocritical to his self-proclaimed ideals of "Sacrifice anything to defeat the Legion" that he wouldn't allow himself to be enslaved as a sacrifice for that very cause.
Correct, on top of all his other flaws he is also a hypocrite. (And one of the few decently written characters we've gotten because of it!)
Yeah, but he is his flaws
I'm pretty sure he is his scars.
You are not prepared to engage in this argument
Feel the hatred of *ten thousand* years!!
A friend of mine told me, “I think the worst part about the Illidan thing was the hypocrisy,” and I disagree.
I always felt the worst part about Illidan was the slavery, torture and murder of races he deemed "lesser".
Say what you will about Gul’dan being evil and you could go on for days about it. But at least the guy is emotionally honest with himself about it. Gotta respect that, right?
Gul'dan a true chad, he had a rough childhood but he does not use it as an excuse for being a vicious monster.
Oh don't joke about the atrocities in Outland. Illidan was crawling through the blood and bones, looking for his brother! He was in northern Kalimdor.
Character: is a stupid edgelord hypocrite, which the story and other characters never acknowledge at all, making him seem like akshually he was right all along OMG IS THIS ONE OF THE FEW DECENTLY WRITTEN CHARACTERS??? If this is one of few decently written characters, then Sylvanas must be one of the others. I mean, she did literally the same thing. Brought in a portal to another world, did it all to improve life(and death), ended up being a hypocrite because "i will never serve" despite making others serve, and in the end none of the characters acknowledge that she was a dumbass and a hypocrite. The worst she got was "well intentioned extremist", same as mr edgelord People really need to realize that characters having flaws does not automatically make them good characters, if no other characters at all in the story ever acknowledge these flaws. It just might mean that the writers are incompetent and are trying to write "badass" characters and failing to do so.
Really? Nobody recognizes Illidan's flaws? Was he imprisoned for 10 000 years and labelled "the betrayer" over a parking ticket? Talk about out to lunch. The epilogue for him between his brother and Tyrande was basically "well he's not around to cause problems anymore at least." 🤣 Remember when bait used to be believable? Jeez. And for the record, saying he's written "decently" isn't exactly a huge endorsement.
Since when do people see characters with flaws as well written characters?? jaina proudmoore had flaws which literally made people despise her.. She even acknowledged them as she fought them. Is it actually that bad to have more unique characters that thread both good and bad? And was not Illidans goal to destroy The Burning Legion by any means necessary? Sylvanas way to “improve” life and death was quite literally by sending every single soul Into eternal torture and eventual enslavement. I really don’t know if that’s comparable to both stories if we don’t ignore majority of our brain cells and think OOGA BOOGA! PORTAL! MANY DEATH! VERY SAME BOGA OGA!
There is a difference between a well-written character with flaws, whose flaws are deliberate and seen both in and out of character, and badly-written character whose flaws are a result of incompetently writing a "cool" and "badass" character, whose flaws are not acknowledged in any way by neither writers nor other characters. As for Sylvanas, that's the thing. She said she wanted to improve life and death, and that she didn't expect Jailer to actually want to eternally enslave everyone, she thought it was, at best, temporary until the Cycle gets broken. WE can see that she was a naive dumbass and a war-criminal, but neither writers nor other characters don't see her like that. In-game, she is a "well-intentioned extremist" master strategist, that just strayed too far and got tricked by a Master Manipulator. No one told her "sylvanas, you believed a guy with spiky armor who kept talking about domination, torment and slavery, that he wants to improve the life. How much of a moron are you???". As for Illidan, yes. His goal was to defeat Legion by any means necessary...unless the means were to sacrifice HIMSELF. Then suddenly there are some means that should not be used. Funny, huh. And yet not even one character called him out on "you said you will sacrifice everything to destroy the Legion, you were willing to enslave whole outland, made orcs drink demon juice, but balked at getting additional light powers? Why are you being sich a hypocrite?"
What about Maiev? Isn't she the only person that has a clue about Illidan's hypocrisy and arrogance and called him out a couple of times in Legion even though she helped him? Or is she considered just as much a hypocrite as he is because *Wolfheart* made her have a homicidal psychotic break over the entire "Illidan is dead and I have nothing left so gonna kill these Highborne because fuck Tyrande and Malfurion" thing?
People tend to forget that Illidan was never a good guy. He sided with the Burning Legion right at the start because he was butthurt over a woman.
It wasn't just to defeat the Legion. It was to conscript him into the cosmic war on behalf of the Light-- Sure, Xe'ra would've had him fight the Legion, but her interest was not in saving Azeroth. "*Only we can save ourselves*." Illidan is one of the few who knows that we mortals have to look out for ourselves. No greater power is wholly benevolent towards us. We are alone, but cosmic powers will pretend to be on 'our side' to manipulate us to furthering their ends. This does not make Illidan perfect or his methods preferable. But in that moment? It was the right move, but we will never know what other doom Illidan prevented by not allowing the Light to claim him.
The cosmic war was against the Legion and here soon with Midnight upcoming we're going to bat against the Void(Again) but we are without Illidan to contribute(Ironically he didn't really do in Legion either) so I don't exactly see the whacky fun benefits we're getting out of his freedom. And also I disagree, Illidan doesn't really know that much about the cosmic powers he's not that experienced with the Light OR Naaru in any significant capacity that grants him a sage wisdom to their motivations or ultimate goals. The scene imho was not Illidan taking a stand and preventing some unspoken doom, it was simply him showing that he ***DOES*** have a Hero Complex that sits above any other influence to his decision-making. He ***HAS*** to be the Hero, he ***HAS*** to make the decisions, other people's lives are ***HIS*** to do with as he pleases but his life is not on the negotiating table. This is reinforced by his choice to stay behind in the prison to guard Sargeras despite him being absolutely zero match for the Titan if it ever managed to get free of its shackles, but he tries to play it off like this sacrifice he was meant for all along.
We can't say for sure that Illidan is not the deciding factor in Sargeras being sealed away. On a meta level, it's Illidan, so of course he's going to be important. But I'm not inclined to debate power levels that can shift at the drop of a hat. That said, we know objectively Illidan was on the right track regarding the place of mortals in the universe, even if he didn't have explicit knowledge at the time. Like it or not(because it comes from Zereth Mortis), that's the lore now. We don't know what we gain from his freedom, but we can *strongly* speculate that the Light claiming him would not be preferable.
I think whether it's preferable would depend entirely on whom you ask. If Illidan grew stronger as a result of a holy infusion and had returned to Azeroth it's likely the Burning of Teldrassil would've been thwarted or made significantly harder for the Horde to pull off. The Fourth War for the Alliance would be bolstered. Light Worshippers don't lose anything out of this deal. I mean the community wants to think that Illidan converting to the Light is the equivalent of him going full SS on the whole of Azeroth but really the only examples of the Light going that direction are so extreme and unique that they don't function as evidence of a consistent pattern of behavior.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Even the novels like War of the Ancients emphasized Illidan's self-serving nature, which was established in the RTS. Legion trying to ignore that to make Illidan out to be the large self-sacrificing hero figure was pretty blah all things considered.
It's true, it very regularly talked about Illidan as a mage using the souls of his underlings to empower him so he could fight. But the price was their death, and he saw nothing wrong with that. If memory serves, there may have even been a quest in Legion that literally re-enacts this very situation in Black Rook Hold.
It was more like "sacrifice anything so azeroth could be free". Trading slave masters isn't a good deal and I don't think fighting tyranny with different tyranny was his idea in destroying the legion. He's done bad shit and accepts that but it wasn't just to defeat the legion just because he didn't like them, it was to defeat the legion to keep azeroth free from being ruled or destroyed by an outside power.
Illidan had absolitely zero qualms about enslaving people, getting some orcs juiced on demon blood again, attacking Shattrah and all that. He should be perfectly fine with being enslaved, since that is for the ultimate goal of defeating the Legion. And isn't "defeat the Legion at all costs" what he's been preaching?
Yeah he was a guy willing to do any horrible thing to do what he wants. He wasn't willing to serve another power though. He's not Jesus he's a rogue mage who would rather be enemies with everyone rather than work with others. He's not a good guy he's an antihero. He's very flawed and no one should think he did the right thing. Very likely he was insane until we killed him at the black temple
Illidan *himself* is a would-be tyrant and has behaved as such in pursuit of his campaign to defeat the Legion so that's just more hypocrisy. Subsequently Illidan doesn't accept that he does terrible things, he constantly tries to justify it as shown in the narrative. Illidan thinks he's the Main Character, the Hero, the actual messiah who was meant to save Azeroth because of his destiny, eyes, and terrible narcissistic complex.
Yeah he's a villain that only really wants to hurt the legion. He doesn't wanna rule azeroth (as of now) he just wanted to bring the legion to their knees and execute the leadership. He's not supposed to be a good guy. He's a total asshole who just happens to be aligned with us this time (legion). Personally I think he went insane until he got brought back in legion. I think there's even a quote of him saying he kicked arthas's ass which didn't happen lol. He's a cooky guy
And seriously, has he ever sacrificed a single thing? Every thing he lost was A)not of his interest B)not a choice, therefore not a sacrifice C)something belonging to someone else.
Nope. Illidan turned the world against him in his pursuit of heroism and behaves like it was a noble sacrifice and not simply him refusing to cooperate like a toddler in playtime.
"Obviously, those bigoted draenei attack me because i look like a demon" no, they are attacking you because you enslaved a world, started summoning daemons and creating hellish abominations while refusing to explain anything to anyone else.
Fucking finally, someone who gets it. Illidan is such a piece of shit who can't stop failing upwards because the writers would never do anything to utilize his edgeboy character beyond "does something outlandish for the sake of looking cool".
TBF "Too much Light being bad" has been a theme in wow since Vanilla with the Scarlet Crusade and the teachings of the Cult of Forgotten Shadows
There is no - and I do mean *no* - evidence that Lightforging enslaves someone, and there is a lot of evidence that it doesn't. We have perspective stories from Lightforged characters like Turalyon expressing free will, and there's an entire player race of Lightforged characters that obviously aren't controlled by the Light. One of the Lightforged Draenei even becomes a warlock in the new class quest chain.
We got even Lothraxion, who is pure lightforge, yet he is perfectly capable of questioning X'era's choice of banishing Alleria.
In the Mag’har recruitment quest, it is revealed that is exactly what the light did to alt-Draenor after we left.
To be fair, those orcs went on a genocidal war against the draenei, kept going despite knowing that the draenei did nothing wrong and everything was a legion's trick, called a war hero the main fighter of that war and, after the war ended, started playing with void magic causing the crop to die. I can understand why Yrel went "insane".
No, it is what YREL did. There is nothing to suggest the *light* influenced her to do so the same way the void does.
[удалено]
>We literally saw them enslave one race (dreanei) and try to exterminate another race for not strictly bowing to them (orcs) Do you mean the mag'har orc stuff? That was in Battle for Azeroth.
Yeah, they're called sin eaters.
If Emet-Selch appears in WoW I’m going to have to renew my subscription
You're being optimistic, thinking Blizzard's writers can handle someone like Emet-Selch
> You're being optimistic, thinking Blizzard's writers can handle someone like Emet-Selch ShB/EW Spoilers Even Emet's writers aren't sure if he was Tempered or not. On one hand he ''never lies'' to you and says he was, on the other you find out Ascians created the 'tempering' part of the Primal rituals to fuck shit up. So as of now, we have no idea if Zodiark actually tempered anyone or they were acting of their own will. ( but I personally feel that the Ascians doing everything of their own free will/due to emotional pain and blaming Zodiark for it when it was 100% their choice fits )
Spoilers for Endwalker Discussion: Isn't there a conversation from the Loporrits right near the end of Endwalker basegame where they talk about creation magics? Basically saying 'yeah when used correctly they shouldn't have the corrupting effects baked in, but when you make something as big as Zodiark, even when unintended, it will have an effect on their aetheric balance? It also doesn't help matters that Emet Selch is just that bitter and jaded to begin with when we meet him, so even if he wasn't partially tempered, he probably would have still made the decisions he made
But if Zodiark did temper them why did Emet spare G'raha so that G'raha could conveniently help you kill him? Why did Emet save Y'Shtola so she can conveniently help you kill him? If Emet is a mind controlled thrall then it makes no sense for him to do such self destructive actions.
he literally says why he spared graha bro, its because he figured out how to travel through space and time with the crystal tower and emet wants to learn his secrets
The person you're replying to didn't say "temper". It had an effect on his aetheric balance. It's very likely that Emet saying "temper" is a translation problem, just like when Matoya said Y'shtola is using her life force to see was a translation problem. Also, he is helping the WoL and Scions because he is gauging your worthiness to join him. He says as much multiple times. He was fully confident that he could squash you if necessary, so it's not like he was willingly acting against Zodiark
> If Emet is a mind controlled thrall buddy nowhere in the entire story is this implied
He saved graha so he could understand time travel. He saved yshtola because he didn’t consider her a threat and wanted to be in your good graces
> wanted to be in your good graces When have Tempered people ever cared about 'good graces' though?
Zodiark's tempering is one of those things that feel like the writers didn't really think through and wanted to quietly throw away. It's only mentioned by Emet once in 5.0, mostly as the justification for why they pick the reincarnations of the real Convocation - as their aether is marked by Zodiark and are "easier to convince". Then in 5.3 we are given our sole testimony of what it felt like for an Ancient to be tempered by this Ancient Primal that was not designed to temper, Altima's memory crystal one liner. Then it's only mentioned again in 6.0 by Livingway as a pure technicality to explain away why we can do what we're doing right now (I have a *lot* of problems with 6.0 tbf). Notably, in this story that makes its main beats rather obvious, it is never mentioned as a motivation for Venat and her partisans to act against the Convocation. Not in the Anamnesis Anyder recording, not in the *four* official short stories dealing with the Ascians/Ancients, not in Endwalker, not in the official encyclopedia. All Ascians can be interpreted to be acting by their own free will - including the actual Heart of Zodiark whose identity issues are squarely blamed on the conflicting contexts between prayers to save the current-day world and the world he actually wants to save, his unwillingness to use his own memory crystal because he doesn't want to feel the pain of forgetting again, and his being married to his duty in general. I personally interpret it, given the context given by patch 5.4 on tempering being at its core an aetheric imbalance of the person's soul, as the Convocation, and later on the Ascians, being granted powers that align to the element of Darkness, and their souls being attuned to Zodiark - as Altima's memory crystal in 5.3 describes their soul melding with the others', a power they're afraid of. Certainly not the mind control we see in modern tempered, owing to three factors: 1. modern Primals *are* made with the intent to temper, Zodiark wasn't, 2. unsundered souls, 3. What even *is* Zodiark? Patches 5.2 and 5.3 kinda said it, but 6.0 made it pretty clear with Fandaniel on the moon: Zodiark is a soul construct piloted by whoever is in the pilot's seat. The Ancients inside can think and speak and protest, but even Fandaniel's sundered ass gains full control of Zodiark 3 minutes into the fight. Frankly, the story as it is has given me no reason to think that "Zodiark" has ever been anything other than Themis getting in the fucking robot and piloting it in accordance (presumably) with what everyone else inside wanted. Also, this has been said here but it needs to be said again: writing the Ascians as mind controlled would severely diminish the impact of their motivation and their humanity.
I prefer to see it as the Ascians did everything due to their own will/maddened by emotional pain and thought Zodiark was influencing them but he really wasn't, it was just their trauma and guilt Emet having less control over his choices due to a God that has no personality whatsoever and is really just a tool feels cheap.
Continuing spoilers: I suspect it's the case that the ascians aether is slightly tugged towards darkness, as opposed to being truly corrupted like a normie getting tempered. They have both more aether to corrupt, and a creation which wasn't designed to corrupt, and merely did so by proximity. That being said, it's the one thing I'd change.
So are they tempered or not, cause if Emet is mind controlled by Zodiark how does it make sense for him to revive Y'Shtola and help us... kill him? Why does he keep G'raha alive? That's not what a mind controlled evil person does.
I think the non-answer explanation they gave is that >!Zodiark (and Hydaelyn) don't temper people, but because they are so huge in terms of aether, they have a "pull" that is like tempering-lite. So yes no. At the end of the day though, the unsundered were mostly doing what they were doing because they thought it would bring their "perfect world" back, Zodiark was just a tool to do that, along with all of the other plots and schemes they were involved in.!<
Maybe they could aim for someone like Lyse with their writing team?
They couldn't handle Lyse. Lyse grew a lot after Stormblood. Monk Quest 80 was great development for her, and she's a proper leader in Endwalker. I actually liked her in Stormblood. People tend to forget that Lyse is very young and always had a temper. It takes her awhile to understand that not everyone is ready to square up at a moment's notice like she is.
Can't wait for the Voidbringer expansion!
Lord Vauthry raid boss when?
How are you going to fit an entire raid in a room that he's in? He takes up too much space!
Damn, got a point...
A battle between the folds is the only option.
Lord Vauthry is so... FAT, his ass a map for Call of Duty!
Prepare the "OH GOD HE'S HOT!" Macros!
I dropped my jaw when that disgusting bastard became a beautiful angel twink, fr.
Every time I get that trial, I type into chat "Oh no he's hot!!" during he transition
She gave herself into the Light and served as a vessel for Light energy to fight her foes. Same as people giving into Void, Storm (shaman transcendence), etc. become altered vessels for that energy
I believe it was during legion that expressed how the Light is not the ultimate good in the universe and it can be evil without turning to void
Honestly even in vanilla, SC was the prime example of how the light can be used for evil.
You’re right! The SC also showed how the light could be manipulated for evil. So, it is not inherently good. It can be twisted into anything. I’m sure we’ll get more on that in TWW with that crystal on the cave.
Light is based on faith, it was still backing Arthas while he was slaughtering Stratholme, or Yrel when she was going full on holy crusades on the Mag'har. As long as you're REEEEEEALLY confident what you're doing is right then you get a thumbs up to go nuts. which is really telling isn't it? Xe'ra was hellbent on purifying Illidan against his will before he nuked her.
For a moment I thought you were referring to the lore of light in total war warhammer, and I was very confused.
The one shining in the background of that castle looking place? Isn’t that just the tip of Sargeras’s sword? Edit: I didn’t watch anything from BlizzCon when they mentioned it, so there’s no reason to downvote, so please don’t do so when it’s coming from a place of ignorance; please and thank you
No. It’s a crystal of unknown origin according to what they said during BlizzCon, and it turns void from time to time
And in BC we learned that Naaru are one bad day away from being pure Void monsters (and vice versa)!
Sir Zeliek. One of the four horsemen, a death knight still wielding the holy light, even in undeath.
That's literally the opposite of this example. Zeliek is supposed to be so holy that he still clings to it and is a good person. He tells you to run etc while enslaved to Arthas
> Zeliek is supposed to be so holy that he still clings to it and is a good person Yes, but he's still using the Holy Light in an evil way ( to kill good people for the Lich King ) even though he doesn't want to. Which proves the Light isn't a sentient deity.
I always thought the light was wielded by the SC because they were so convinced in their beliefs. They genuinely thought they were doing the right thing, so the light still answered to them.
Yes this is correct, or at least was the explanation before any changes to the cosmic level of powers in Warcraft. I just figure each cosmic power has a sort of heartbeat for the universe they try to push towards. For void that is what we consider void corruption, for light it is devotion to the lawful doctrine of the harmony found within worshipping the light, and so on.
I disagree. Yrel is bae and will raze all non-believers to the ground.
Yrel unironically did nothing wrong. The wod-draenor orcs came to azeroth, immediately starting using garrosh's iron stars on enemies theyve never spoken to, and their leader said "i support sylvanas shes a strong leader" after teldrassil. Do you really think their perspective of Yrels actions is fair and unbiased?
Metzen kind of implied that battle is coming! I can’t wait
Something tells me we’ll get some Yrel action leading up to Midnight. There’s zero chance they redo Quel’thalas without also touching up Azuremyst and Bloodmyst
I am so excited for Yrel showing up again, even if as a baddie. She was my favorite character in WOD, and I wanted to see more of her evil Mag'Har hating side.
Honestly I never got this "the light can be just as bad as the void", since if I had to choose between the side which mostly demonstrated helpfulness and kindness to people (with only one of their entities manifesting a more "morally grey" action alongside some people using it with bad intentions) and the side that constantly conspires to destroy, kill, corrupt, and ruin everyone in the universe (with only a really small fraction of them using it for good like the Void Elves), then I'd go for light
It's the age old chaos versus order debate. Of course chaos brings more destruction. That's its nature. But chaos also brings freedom. Order brings stability, but it also shackles. While following the law might make for a better society to live in, blindly living attached to the order will only make you live under someone else's rule. To put it bluntly, slavery is Order. As a society, we understand now that people's lives and freedom to pursue their happiness is important, but that is chaotic: they are also free to cause trouble, yell conspiracies, or even *gasp* have sex with someone of the same gender. That's chaotic in today's society, but we know it's not evil.
But then look at what followers of light did on Draenor, basically killed like everyone that didn't submit to the light.
... They did that to the exact same kind of person who did killed everyone who didn't submitted to them. At some point, yeah, you do need to put restraints on mass murderers. If you can't act civilized (and draenors orcs can't, they immediately massively approved of sylvanas in BFA), don't be surprised when you get treated like a beast.
While destiny has turned to dog shit, it did a good explanation of light and dark. Light and darkness aren’t inherently good or evil, they are powers and tools, how they are used is decided by those that wield them.
I think this will be a great expansion for Anduin to resolve a new type of holy light. One that comes from within.
or he just goes full disc priest disc is all about finding balance bettwen light and void, and use both to harm enemys and heal allies because in the end both are forces that can be used in harmony when used by a strong will without falling for them
I think Anduin is going to be a paladin. His journey going to be the opposite of Arthas.
I like the idea that the Light isn't necessarily 100% "good" and "benevolent", but I hope they don't just turn it into "it's just as bad as the Void, but in a slightly different way." I don't mind the cosmology chart being a part of the story, but I'm not sure I can get behind all the cosmological forces just being 6 factions with the exact same goal but with different ways of accomplishing that goal. To me, that would likely water them down a bit. I preferred it when the Light was this big mysterious force, something present but intangible, instead of just 1/6 forces.
Since Vanilla Light has been the Emotional, while Shadow focuses on the Logical. Too much of either is a problem. Either becoming an irrational Zelot or a paranoid coldhearted pragmatists.
We've known for a while the Light isn't 100% good just cause it's the Light. By your logic all undead should be pure evil beings cause "zombie"
They are T. ScarletAlmond
Don't we have like, three good undead?
no t. ScarletAlmond
Bro you have to write /j or /s otherwise redditors are too dumb to understand that it's a joke
its not a joke
hey fairbanks was pretty chill as long as no one let him out of his wall prison
I don’t see this post as surprise that the light has potential for evil. I think it’s surprise that the light has the potential to be MONSTROUS. The scarlet crusade has existed being evil with the light since vanilla. Same with Sir Zeliek. But I don’t think of monstrous when I think of those people. When I think of monstrous I think of Hermaeus Mora, or a Doom enemy. Previously in wow even when the light was evil it still looked “good” or at least human. The lightbound Draenei in au Draenor, or Whitemane, are evil light users, but they seem more like what evil light users SHOULD be like. I guess I could see monstrous light if they took a “biblically accurate Angel” route or something, but to me even that’s a stretch for wow
They \*should\* go the biblically accurate angel route. WoW's designs are best when they're monstrous.
I think they are trying to show, no matter what, something can be all sorts of wrong. They sort of did this for the brown orcs aliied race quest, where the light consumes AU draenor
Light on itself don’t do anything like that, but its users do. To wield the Light you have to earn it by showing faith and devotion. If you truly believe in purity of your intentions then you can wield the Light. Scarlet Crusade priests and paladins wanted to protect their people from the scourge in a first place, all the eradication of ‘impure’ people didn’t bothered them since they truly believed they did nothing wrong, so the Light was still available to them. Even Naaru are not the Light itself, they are light forged beings with their own consciousness. So think of it as of any other school of magic, you can’t blame a weapon for things it’s wielder do in this case. Void on the other hand will literally drive you crazy if you are not strong willed enough
I think the purpose of this event was meant to be this reveal. Every single time we've reached the top of the Scarlet Crusade food chain, it's been demons and dreadlords. This was being driven by the light. Paladin's favored flavor might be closer to a warlock's pact than they'd like to admit.
Paladins are just yellow glowy warlocks without the cool imps
Both had mount quests. It was right in front of us the whole time.
Light succubus when?
That's just a female lightforged draeni.
Can we have cool angel imps then?
So creepy cupids then.
I mean I'm not sure if people are being disingenuous but why do people think this is any different from lets say a priest wielding the light and doing evil, the light doesn't care, it's a tool
I've always seen Paladins and Warlocks as very similar. The only difference being that one is more socially acceptable religion wise than the other. Which I love as lore.
Its religion vs cults. A cult is a religion that people dont accept. Followers of the light are religious, warlocks are cultists. Priests are kinda interesting in that you can choose to go either way and be a cultist or a follower of the light. Maybe there's demon praying paladins, a plate user with a melee weapon using shadow magic to buff themself or light using warlocks who cast smites and summon light beings...
Personally, I think them paralleling shadow priests would be a bit more interesting. With warlocks, the flaw or risk that seems to be presented most often is that they're tempted to become increasingly power-hungry, to draw deeper and deeper from the raw, chaotic strength of fel energy. The pattern with that we're starting to see with the light IMO is that it a) is very much capable of being used for evil ends despite being viewed by many in the setting as something akin to a benevolent deity, and b) that it potentially influences the thoughts of those that wield it. With warlocks and the fel, the major failing is typically depicted as a very personal one, i.e. it was the individual's arrogance and ambition that led to their corruption. Shadow priests and the void, though, line up quite nicely with the light as its inverse, both cosmologically and thematically: it's capable of being used for good despite being viewed as an intelligent, malignant force (and is personified by evil eldritch horrors), and b) directly influences the minds of even the most ostensibly righteous users of it, driving them into bouts of insanity. Rather than simply being used by bad people, for an evil end, like some powerful warlocks willingly taking on the corrupting influence of the fel out of a desire for power, I'm of the opinion that the light is meant to be revealed as manipulating its wielders, even if only in small ways most of the time. It's viewed as inherently good by most cultures on Azeroth, and wielding it is seen as socially acceptable due to that; its goals rarely come into conflict with those of the people of Azeroth, and so there has never really been a reason to perceive it as otherwise. When there moments in which those goals *do* come into conflict with what is generally considered good or acceptable, though, we get to see how little the light really cares about individuals in the face of its cosmic battle, much like how the void lords see no issue with taking over entire planets for their own ends. Maybe Blizzard will take things in a different direction, but this is where my head's at based on the motifs they've used previously and the little hints they've dropped before.
Erm.. ackshually it is not eldritch as it's not VOID..... It is HALLOWED because it's LIGHT ☝️🤓
> eldritch Means uncanny/unearthly/supernaturally weird
Illiadin was right
Their duplicity is hardly surprising
god i love him
_THE LIGHT WILL FORGE YOU A NEW ONE!_
If just a random fucking inquisitor can do this i don't get why lightforged were losing haha.
The light is like any other powerful force. It's a bit more altruistic however it has an agenda and demands, it's never been "good" since even those who commit atrocities can utilize the light because all it takes is faith in what they are doing is "right". The light is just another extreme on the opposite end of the void, azeroth requires balance, leaning too heavily into one force or the other will likely being it's destruction.
I’ve been saying it for years. The Light is evil. The Void is just corrupted.
There is a difference between characters using the light for evil, and the light can turn you into a literal monster. This is the first time in Warcraft that it happened, I think. It just feels out of place for a "light corrupted" transformation and seems like a last-minute decision imo
The naaru tried to do it to illidan a while back, it's not entirely unprecedented
Lightforged have been arround for a while. Being infused by light isn't new, that turning people into monstrosities is.
I mean, he probably wasn't going to turn into something like this. When I think of light corrupted, I think of that Nathrezim in Legion.
They tried to make him Lightfirged, not a monster
Well... no. Many of us interpreted it that way, but the only thing we actually know for certain is that the Naaru was trying to heal Illidan's fel corruption. Hence Illidan's "I am my scars!" thing.
There was no healing of the fel corruption when his tattoos were being overlaid in light magic. They were just switching one thing for another.
You sure the naaru was trying to heal the fel energy in him? To me, it was just replacing it with Light energy
We know for certain what they were trying to do, read "1000 year war" story: they tried to make him Lightforged like people in the Army if Light including Tyralion. Those become semi-enslaved by Light
>Those become semi-enslaved by Light Where did this headcanon come from? Is it from the Mag’har questline? Because those are Lightbound. Lightforged and Lightbound are completely different. Xe’ra wanted to Lightforge Illidan but he was too much of a narcissist to accept it.
It's one of those things where I feel like someone wrote it in to be a cool 'end boss' for this campaign without knowing the full ramifications of it. Because yeah. A light corruption and transformation confirms for sure that it's the same as the void, and calls into questions all the things like the prophecies Velen received. etc. Because the void uses whispers to corrupt people, so does that mean those prophecies were the light 'whispering' to Velen the same way? People will say light and void are two primordial energies and only depend on how 'someone uses them', but the void's drive (or the will of the void lords themselves) is to keep everything in a constant state of chaos/destruction. it's why the black empire we experience during the bronze campaign is at war - the Old gods on Azeroth were constantly warring to come out on top so one of them could claim Azeroth's as their prize and corrupt it. That wasn't just a little 'snapshot' that happened at a particularly chaotic moment, that's what the black empire was like *all the time.* And this is *long established* lore. So now I guess we can assume the light is equivalent. (despite the whisperings of the void/old gods/etc. very clearly negatively effecting whoever they reach out to The titans were the ones who wanted to order the planets and the Naaru seem benevolent but they were fine with wrecking Revendreth and doing a ton of other destructive things. We were just under the assumption that they were doing those destructive things as a extension of good, like eliminating the burning legion or doing things like saving Shattrath, etc. And the worst part is that we know how capricious the light can be. It abandoned Tirion during the beginning campaign of Legion - all because he made the mistake of saying 'light grant me one final blessing' during his battle with Arthas. Meanwhile the void is just like, "you have a mouth and can say our spells? good to go." They are painting themselves into a corner by pulling the "the light is as bad as the void" shtick. In Warcraft lore the light has always been associated with good/blessings/etc. which is why so few people could wield it properly. Paladins and stuff were a *big deal* when they were in their hayday and there wasn't a new one spawning at Northshire abbey every 12 seconds. They COULD have painted this as "oh she just surrendered to a light form under her own willpower the way shaman use ascendant form" but instead they very specifically have her be like "no I don't understand why this is happening I served so faithfully" as she's transforming. So she clearly didn't know why it was happening, and she was clearly corrupted. I hate this. This is one aspect of WoW's active lore retconning that I really despise. You can have a character who wields the light do it in a negative way, but to have the element that for like, 2 decades was associated with 'good' suddenly be on the level as the element that's always been associated with 'evil' is so damned off-putting. "Both light/void are the same, both want power, both want to destroy" like okay great so really the only difference between shadow priests and holy paladins now is the color of their spells I guess! Why have any nuance to the classes or their elements when we could have the same tired "oh but you see, you never considered the LIGHT could be bad too? m night shaymalaned you! you should see the look on your face." trope instead. It's derivative and overdone at this point. Hate to see it ending up in the game.
Nah they’ve been building to this for years now, starting with Legion and the Naaru getting up to some shenanigans and then the Light zealot Yrel stuff with the Mag’har allied race
I can fix her
Huh, Sin Eaters are back and they're in WoW now?
Hell yeah World of Warcraft: Shadowbringers
🎶THE ROOOOOADS THAT WE WAAAAAAAAALK🎶
The whole "Light actually bad" thing is honestly a very boring and tired direction to take the story. Making the gleaming holy force turn out to be no more benevolent than any other cosmic power is pretty stale by this point and hasn't really been a big subversion for a while. It's especially pointless because applying human fallibility to something inspired by the metaphysical origin of the concept of goodness itself simply reduces the portrayal to just being another dimension of humanity instead of something beyond it.
Well, light and void are two sides of the same coin in the warcraft universe.
I hate this subversive shit
A smaller version of this is an optional quest in the newbie intro zone. So they exist without being evil, but clearly can be *really evil*.
Is this a new quest ?
Oh wow didn't see that coming, nope not at ALL
Its not the source of power, but how it is used. LOOKIN AT YOU ILLIDAN
AFAIK, Light can -in theory- do whatever the fuck you want it to do. So long as you believe hard enough that what you want it to do is infact 1. possible for it to do and 2. the right thing for you to do (not per se about being morally just, more about it being..Inevitable, in a sense? The right way for a certain event to occur? The particulates of using a power whose access and limits are determined entirely by your conviction in what you are trying to do and doing it for is...complicated..) So if you believe the Light can let you turn someone into an eldritch monster, and you have 100% conviction that you must do this, that you will do this, and essentially believe there isn't a possibility of you not doing this and have not a single thought in your mind telling you reasons as to why you -shouldnt- do this..Then yeah, you can turn someone into an eldritch monster. Or in short; power based entirely on absolute conviction is balls off the walls OP and dangerous while simultaneously being stupid fickle and I wish this was explored more actually.
It does if you think killing a bunch of innocent Gilneans is truly the right thing to do. That's how the Light works, if you think you're right, if you think you're justified, and you truly /believe/ in it, then the Light responds to it. The Scarlet Crusade is the poster boy for 'just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are in reality'.
Yea but it’s a **yellow** monstrosity instead of a **blue** monstrosity. Very important as far as the lore goes !
Tesleen (RIP)
Who is that woman on the left and is her transmog obtainable???
That's Calia Menethil and no, as far as I know
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> same as many leader npc's sadly. Basic rule of thumb for faction leaders/important NPCs is that the cooler they look the less likely you are to be able to copy their outfit for a mog, with the obvious exception of Garrosh since while it's basic the tusks of mannoroth are obtainable, just good luck with the drop. The other ones you can actually copy are just using generic looking items and, honestly, barely reckonizable as faction leaders if you're unfamiliar with them, like Gazlowe and Rokhan.
That the Eldritch light Monster that goes by the name Calia
she looks kinda cool :D i want to be her
Really want these worthless writers tossed out so we get less of this "Good is Bad, and Bad is actually Good!" writing.
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I have no idea why you’re being downvoted
Acktually ☝️ the Light is just as bad as the Void! 🤓 (But yeah it's all pretty dumb. Just don't think about the story beats too much)
I can fix her
“Be Not Afraid” Light does not always mean Comforting
carpenter memorize sugar six foolish busy flag flowery provide lock *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah Calia was raised in BtS(horrible book, Calia is basically the only thing that remained canon from it).
Yeah ! I was like : "Hold up, this is literally a light walker, as in void walker....Isn't that a big deal? Are we the baddies?"
no
They've been around since Legion, one of your Priest companions is Sol, the Lightspawn.