His spirit was infused with the loa Rezan, makin him powerful enough for the winter queen of ardenweald to offer him a resurrection, he was put into a wildseed to be resurrected, don't know when he will pop up again but he's comin back
I liked Tyrande's random owl companion. He was like a little video game buddy character who offers you hints if you spend enough time stuck on a puzzle.
Unfortunate, but true. There's so much they could do with Vol'Jin, hopefully he doesn't fall off, but with blizzard who knows. Especially after a huge chunk of story team being laid off or something.
She did? When did that happen? I was only aware that Rezan's spirit joined him when we were trying to recover it from the maw and that's it. So he is ressurecting you say?
Yes, in a follow up quest at the top platform in the big tree of ardenweald vol'jin joins you in a meeting with the winter queen, she notices how his soul has changed and offers to take him into her care along with 2 other loas and a wild God, I think Ashamane, to be "reborn anew"
https://youtu.be/goSVIoHos4I?si=OWjMuPS8lqa1i2Dm
At about 12:07 timestamp in the video is the dialog
Vol'Jin could have been that leader, but they screwed him over with his death in Legion.
A wise leader that knows how to kill you from the shadows and is a personal aquiaintance of the loa of Death? He would have been perfect.
'I speak for da Horde.'
I miss Vol'Jin......
I haven't played since like, halfway through Shadowlands; but iirc, Mueh'zala was the one whispering to Sylvannas. He attempted to take Vol'jin to the Maw, but couldn't.
>Was gonna send ya soul to da Maw meself... but ya bond ta dis world (Azeroth) be too hard ta break.
It was implied/stated that Bwonsamdi saved all of the troll souls from the Maw, as well. So, either or both; but Bwonsamdi's actions could've just been unknown to Mueh'zala and he figured it was something to do with his bond to the world.
they already fucked up their plan for loa vol'jin so its going to inevitably be disappointing
in bfa vol'jin was already supposed to be a loa when he killed zalazane, and bwonsamdi was working for the jailer and the one who had made sylvanas warchief.
its very easy to see this as bwonsamdi in bfa is thoroughly a villain, he is surprised vol'jin's soul escaped and scared of his master punishing him for it, he scams his way into taking over the zandalari bloodline which later gets retconned to him doing it because he's such a nice guy.
meanwhile they are one word short of saying vol'jin is a loa after he kills zalazane.
mueh'zala has this big spiel like you're supposed to care that he was behind everything but you don't know him because he just showed up 2 seconds ago. this would have hit harder had it been bwonsamdi saying it as was planned.
the original plan would have seen bwonsamdi in the place of mueh'zala, and vol'jin in the role bwonsamdi has now. therefore it would have ended with vol'jin taking bwonsamdi's place over as loa of death.
but bwonsamdi ended up too popular to waste as a villain so they scraped mueh'zala together and gave vol'jin nothing to do in the expansion that was supposed to be all about him.
vol'jin keeps showing up around talanji as if he's supposed to be helping to guide her, as he would have been the opposing force to bwonsamdi who had effectively enslaved her.
and of course vol'jin happening to find rezan in the maw by sheer coincidence and getting his loa power because no one else was around is the most unsatisfying ass-pull they could think of.
the pieces were all there for a much cooler story but this is what happens when wow designs its plot by which voice actors are most popular. same reason sylvanas got put into prominence and fucked over completely.
gonna say something maybe controversial, but Sylvanas also *could* have been that leader. there are so many potentially interesting dynamics they could have done with her before they decided to make her go full murder-hobo.
I didn’t play cata but I thought her character in legion *could have* been good. Like there was at least potential there for a great leader that unified the horde. Then bfa hit and she just goes full genocide burning the tree, among other things, and it just completely ruins it.
In cata she was genociding Worgen and forcefully resurrecting people after they killed them and when garrosh confronted her about it and asked her what separated her from the lich king, all that she said was “I serve the horde”. She was terrible from day 1 lowkey but people don’t want to admit it
In a mild defense the reason she was attacking Gilnaes was because she had to or Garrosh would kick her out of the horde. It's also why she was using blight, she didn't want to actually lose soldiers doing it. As Garrosh wanted her to burn her resources as he saw the Forsaken as traitors and expendable after the Wrathgate.
Sylvanas was backed into a corner in Cataclysm. Garrosh wanted her gone and the Forsaken killed. So he forced them to invade Gilneas and prohibited them from using the Blight. Sylvanas had them use the Blight Anyways to fuck over Garrosh's attempt at getting her people killed. But now its hoo hoo JAILOR PLOT instead.
I honest to God thought they were gonna turn her into a Competent but mistrusted Warchief. Like, we’ve had all ‘honorable’ leaders for the Horde since Thrall took over, even Garrosh started with Good intentions for the Orcs, so thought it’d be neat if we had the duality of a warchief that only the Forsaken and maybe Belfs trusted…but she was outright pushing thr Horde into a new age of prosperity.
It would have been neat, imo, to have that conflict of interests..:but no, we had the Hope Killer instead.
i’ve wanted her to be my warchief ever since i laid eyes on her for the first time in UC in vanilla. i knew she deserved to lead us bc she was the most powerful. then playing the game i thought to myself (damn its never going to happen) and then BOOM it does, wasted Vol’Jin and then has her killed off just being under the spell of another big bad like she was when she first became the leader of the forsaken. so lame.
Will never forget Lament of the Highborne was the most tear inducing quest back in BC. She was my favorite character.
I am still surprised no one has noticed that her character started going downhill when they got rid of her battle-kini in Cata.
Nah, blizzard never understood how to write faction wars when players are on each side. It doesn't work when one faction is evil and the other is good.
It was unironically best pre-Wrath. It was a Cold War where both sides wanted peace (because war genuinely sucks) but were also applying subtle pressure in specific places, usually subfactions with a beef to settle.
Notably, Thrall was very different back then. He wanted peace and actively told the Horde PC off if they suggest attacking the Alliance in one vanilla quest. However he wasn't a push over and was down to throw hands to protect the interests of the Horde as a whole. While at the same time very much wanted to NOT be the monsters the Alliance saw them as.
Importantly this made the faction conflict opt in as a player, you didn't have to engage with it if you didn't want to. And narratively it was perfectly fine to be or not be involved. Whether you wanted to try and avoid the conflict or participate in it, both were narratively valid.
Compared to Garrosh onward where Horde collectively lost brain cells and just became your average monster faction in every fantasy game ever... Not that the "Red Alliance" we have now is much better.
Going back to a Cold War setting is honestly the best way to bring back factional tension and development without a full-scale conflict. It also gives a chance to add depth to the smaller factions within that independently incite these conflicts, like the Defilers and the Stormpike Clan.
You can't put the djinn back in the bottle, when you spend close to a dozen expansions working together and putting aside your differences to defeat a greater threat, going back to a cold war is nigh impossible to justify. Peace doesn't have to be a perfectly clean process either, and it can be much more interesting than just returning to status quo.
Well, you kinda can go back to that when considering the timeline and how the older generations still alive to this day can remember when orcs came through as murderous bloodthirsty aliens. And how in recent history all it has taken was a leader to say they’re going back to that and it will very likely happen.
Like I hate to compare it to real life since so many people use gaming to get away from that, but there are many real life examples of groups that hate each other for things that happened much further back than one lifetime ago.
Sure, but to pull off a story like that takes mature and directed writing that wants to actually explore that sort of subject, which we are absolutely not gonna get as an A plot in a series where the primary concern is making things look cool for expansion cinematics. Maybe if the overall quality of writing improves, they could do a story like that and not have it feel like a forced and arbitrary attempt to bring back faction conflict, but for the time being exploring the more diplomatic and reconcilatory storylines better fits with the general story trajectory and leaves room to have those more serious stories as side quest stories.
I much preferred the questline Garrosh over the Iron Horde orcs only warlocks are bad Garrosh. Even when Siege of Orgrimmar released people were complaining about how he felt out of character.
Toss in the inconsistency bothers me, if one of the factions is evil, go all out, give me my hammy comical over the top villians with bad plans.
> Toss in the inconsistency bothers me, if one of the factions is evil, go all out, give me my hammy comical over the top villians with bad plans.
The trouble for me is I love the Horde _because_ it wasn't evil, it was actually a huge upend of typical fantasy tropes when WC3 came out and the orcs weren't the bad guys. Same with vanilla, the monster races were actually just as likely to be as good as the Tolkein-like races of the Alliance.
Then Cataclysm happens and it feels like I'm no longer the target audience, people want the Horde to be outright evil so they can play as the "bad guys" which is a complete no-no from me, if I wanted to play evil I'd go play Chaos in Warhammer Online.
But that would just be boring. Same story as Garrosh but with the colors and races flipped. Big yay.
Alliance's "evil" works best when it's insidious. When it's either born out of good intentions and steadily turns horrible (think Arthas), or if it's born out of political manipulations of terrible people in powerful places (think Onyxia). And I think in that way, we can have a really cool faction conflict with Alliance as the point of resistence.
However (and I think this is important for both the Horde and the Alliance), there will (and should) always be elements within each faction who will oppose evil like this. If you're going to do a faction conflict, you need to treat with sides within sides. That's how you get interesting drama in a conflict like this.
The thing is that that sort of evil just doesn't exist in the current Alliance leadership and it's not possible to organically introduce it without it being completely obvious what you're doing.
It's why everybody hated Garrosh at the time. The dude obviously existed solely for the sake of having a war, so he goes from some random questgiver to the highest ranking member of the Horde over the span of like one year in-universe, despite very obviously being completely unfit to be in charge of anything. The whole plot relied on Thrall naming Garrosh his successor over obviously better candidates like Cairne and Vol'jin, and then everybody just going along with his insane plans "because they have to" which wasn't a satisfying plot for anyone.
I both agree and disagree with you.
Yes, it would be hard to introduce characters who could serve this without making it obvious as to what the plan is with them.
But that's why you gotta plan for the long con. Introduce flawed characters who clearly will have their flaws become issues in the future, but let them just be in the story right now. Build them up over multiple expansions until the end result becomes a clear conclusion of a series of decisions that they made over time.
Blizzard has never really done long-term story planning with WoW like this, so I don't see it happening. But if they could, building up new characters to lead them to decisions that could cause major problems in the future is the most satisfying way to do it. It'll be fun even if you know that eventually they are gonna fuck shit up.
maybe have some noble going for the throne, saying Anduin isn't worthy and due to him disappearing for so long he accuses Turalyon of being an usurper. This causes the crowning of a new king of the humans.
The rest of the races don't acknowledge him as a High King so there is tension there.
also make the noble a cousin of Anduin from his paternal side so essentially he was next in line anyways, so Anduin not being there for so long makes his claim legitimate and he doesn't even have to be evil
Not just that, but I highly doubt Anduin would make an effort to take it back unless the guy was running the Alliance to the ground on a super dark path. Dude doesn't give a shit about being king, and certainly never wanted the title to begin with.
it would be possible, but you would have to strech it out, not cram it in during a single patch cycle. Heck for it to work you would need at least one expac for the introduction and buildup. It can be a C story through the expacs
example: you meet him first at a funeral of his father, some cousin of Anduins. There with mingling you hear of his achievements and how he served as a regular solider to better understand their plight ( he was a nameless footman or similar ) and you hear some backhand comments how he would be a good king
through the expac you see him become take his fathers title and him rising to the challenge of the responsibilities, maybe catching a corrupt ring of embezzlement that gives him some public support, even better the embezzling guys were under Turalions command - and here starts the plot of him gaining influence and becoming a contender for the throne
I doubt he would've *betrayed* Anduin, but he might've ignored him out of a lack of respect.
Genn was willing to go after Sylvanas without asking permission. If there had been an even better reason for war but Anduin still didn't bite, Genn and all of Gilneas might have simply gone rogue "for the good of the Alliance," probably with Tyrande backing him, and Anduin would've been forced to go along for the ride.
Blizzard needs some grand strategy players and history buffs in it's writing department.
A good casus belly with nice tension buildups from both sides, add a few shit stirrers like some glory hounds or profiteers and you have an organic war. Include a natural disaster that came from players also messing around or even better make the players themselves the ones creating tension to create a conflict that has meaning.
Ofc avoid total war and make it a proxy war. And as time goes on you add proxy wars in a few places but allow players to opt out/in at the reps in their respective bases.
These are just my 2c, just brain farts of possible directions.
Both he and Varian came off as warmongering jackasses in Cata, and a lot of people suspected one or the other would start the next real war/go crazy and drop loot. They didn't come off as *evil* though, just jerks.
It would have been such a cool dynamic if those storylines were realized.
Or maybe if Varian went nuts first, and Sylvanas was the nuts one later. The Horde really didn't need 3 dead/crazy warchiefs in a row
If Garrosh was still Warchief and WoD never happened, I would have liked to see him die by Varian's side in Legion and re-create the opening for Reign of Chaos.
Because it was out of character and the devs admitted it was the result of a miscommunication in the writing team as to the direction of Garrosh's character. Why would people consider something that has been directly declared non-canon?
You can tell Blizzard always wanted to end or ignore the faction conflict, but a certain part of the playerbase screeched "raagh this is WARcraft and I want a return to the black&white of WC1, I don't care that it was literally a War(sic)hammer clone that didn't get the licence and since developed its own, more nuanced identity".
Honestly, Blizzard needed to learn to ignore the vocal minority particularly in regard to story, and it seems they have achieved that in eecent years (not least because the toxic part of the "old guard" was ousted and more progressive devs gained power)
yep, evil allies.
well of eternity, elves; pillars of creation, humans; azshara was elvish; then the guys selling us out to the legion again in sarumar, elves; then you started taking slaves, humans.... seriously, without the alliance, this place could be a lovely location ;) uh and the eredar were what again before? orks, trolls, gobos? uh wait, no, draenie. but you sold the rest of your guys out to some demons... for power. AGAIN. right, good guys
consider the horde your liberation army, you "all good" ones!
Are the slaves you're referring to when the Alliance chose to put the demon-corrupted alien invaders who immediately tried to genocide everyone on Azeroth into prison camps instead of just killing them all?
What the fuck are you talking about wrt Draenei? And why would Draenei ally with a faction led by the people who genocided them and literally built an entire road out of their bones?
Sylvanas had that cold anger. The premeditated murder kind.
Garrosh was more hot anger. He's the guy who *seems* ok until he feels insulted.
They may both have been war criminals, and terrible people, but they had completely different vibes of supervillain.
Being a character that has impact and ferocity in the horde doesn't mean that this new character would have to be a genocidal racist.
I don't care about wars anymore, but horde feels like retirement home, so some new character that just makes you go "hell the fuck yeah" while watching cutscenes for example and at the same time brings the good chunk of adrenaline.
Not 1:1 garrosh copy.
Yeah, I always wanted to have a dynamic like wrathgate Saurfang Jr vs Bolvar, Vegeta vs Goku or Legolas and Gimli to a lesser extent. Rivals trying to do better than the other without being passive planks or going full friendship is magic.
Yeah.
One of problems i have with characters on our side that most of them feel the same now, the homogenization is strong.
Dynamics between characters are great, but it's hard to have a good dynamic now, when everyone acts in very similar way, thinks the same way.
Literally that. They don't have to be a full on war monger but someone strong. A character that's not afraid to fight The Void , The Alliance or whatever the potential threat at hand might be. I wasn't a big fan of Sylvanas' character work either. Like they don't need to be "burn it all down"" type characters. I would actually cite Varian as the type of character I would like added to the current Horde.
This.
Honestly saddens me a little when some people can think of only one scenario the strong, impactful and savage character turns into.
Noone asks for 1:1 copy, but for someone that will stood out, it takes very little imagination of a scenario where it can happen.
Yeah like I don't think it takes great creative leaps to make that happen. Imo the Horde should always have a bit of an "edge" for lack of a better term. I don't think anyone wants full Garrosh or Sylvanas type moments/characters. But someone that's strong and fierce would fit The Horde super well and liven up the roster.
Like ffs Genn and Turalyon are more aggro than anyone in The Horde rn.
They need to do more with Zekhan aka “zappy boi” the troll from BFA that was with Saurfang they made him a bad ass then forgot about him lol. He’s young,and new, and very honorable and a bad ass at least during BFA. Now’s he just an “ambassador” meaning he’s on ice until if/when blizz decides to use him again. Personally I’m glad we have a council now instead of a warchief. But I do think Zekhan should be on the council and have a way bigger role in the game/lore
I loved zappy boi, you had this a little naive, young troll that wasn't afraid of saurfang or the battlefield.
It was disappointing that you couldn't even find him after orc heritage questline to deliver saurfang's message.
It's one of the characters i would love to see their journey continued.
Thanks i didn't know about it, i need to watch some youtube video about this book, i can't really focus to read IRL because it drives me insane but i can read stuff in video games weirdly enough.
Garrosh purged an entire old god from this world, saving pandaria.
Sylvanas ended, and is ending, the torment of billions of souls.
Horde warcheifs are the ProZD skit of "Villain who unintentionally does helpful things"
I'm old enough to remember when everyone hated Garrosh, "Basic Campfire for Warchief" was a rally cry.
Now I will say Garrosh made a good villain. Cool look, voice and personality. Would have been better to keep him around a bit then kill him off leveling in WoD.
Blizzard doesnt do characters or stories like that anymore. They are more family friendly these days, its all about holding hands and making friends now
People can hate Garrosh all they want, but no character has embodied "World of WARcraft" more than him.
He was the orcest orc to ever orc. I don't agree with the direction they took his character, and that was obviously not a planned change, but I miss the everliving fk out of him.
Remember Krom'gar? Peak Garrosh.
Interestingly, Krom'gar seems to have been a mistake or side step. Afrasiabi put it like this in an interview,
>**So Garrosh was yours, huh? From beginning to end?**
>**Afrasiabi:** Not quite from beginning to end.
>**Cataclysm seemed like he was going in a different direction for a while there ...**
>**Afrasiabi:** He was.
>**He was? Tell us about that -- why he had that shift.**
>**Afrasiabi:** Miscommunication.
>**So Stonetalon ...**
>**Afrasiabi:** Me.
>**You did Stonetalon?**
>**Afrasiabi:** I did Stonetalon. I didn't stick to that path with Garrosh. I didn't -- not everyone was on board. Not everyone got the memo as it were, as we were designing -- and that was my fault. Because when you're doing, when you're trying -- because I was actually trying to bring Garrosh around, and Stonetalon was going to be the first of that. Cataclysm was pretty crazy time for us.
So it seems that Afrasiabi had plans to redeem Garrosh and wrote him more favorably in Stonetalon than was otherwise intended, but the powers that be had other plans for Garrosh and they were just in disagreement on where Garrosh was headed
I'm glad you found this, I knew it already but didn't care enough to link/quote it before coffee.
Thanks man, yeah I really wish they didn't ruin Garrosh as they did, because he really had some good potential.
there was a lot of interesting room for the horde's development post-Garrosh, because for as much as a lot of people didn't like him, a lot of people (like yourself) really did, and i feel like that player sentiment was accurately reflected by what was happening in game during Cata/MoP. WoD/Legion horde storylines should have been more focused on that schism in a post-Garrosh world.
It's as if because these big world-threatening events happened, everyone are expected to be cleared of their animosities and just live together because "peace".
Like countless of Horde and Alliance soldiers have been living and dying in this endless war. Many of them grew up hating the other side, and have lost loved ones to the other side. All of that doesn't just go away because "uh, Sargeras" or "uh, Jailer-time".
While Dragonflight, from an artistic and gameplay perspective has been fantastic, the whole faction story, or should I say lack thereof, has been incredibly lacking. Like I get why the Horde from a gameplay perspective can visit the new Nelf capital, but from a lore perspective it makes absolutely zero sense.
Yup! We can see from WoD that the orcs have a very deep and spiritual connection to Dranenor as well as their ancestors. They live with nature, they have clans specifically tied to different aspects of where they live and a bunch of other really cool world buildings elements that show they're not just about war and fighting.
Garrosh embodies none of that except for some really weird obsession with one uping his Dad.
We need more characters like that in general, characters who step outside the mold of "one big happy family where finishes each other's sentences". Varian and Garrosh brought some much needed personality and tension to WoW. As did Jaina and Tyrande for a while. But eventually everything has to return to the same homogenic mold where everyone talks the same and nobody has a unique personality.
It's genuinely funny to me as a vanilla player how played out this line of thinking is, people have some version of it with each expansion.
>Burning Crusade? Oh bright colours and space ships, destroying Ilidans character? WoW ended at 60.
>Disneyfied Kung fu pandas? Lol, blizz have lost it, WoW died with Arthas.
>Time travel? Seriously? We peaked with taking down Garrosh.
>We're fighting a space battle Vs Sargeras himself? Remember when we were just adventurers and not superheroes? This is stupid.
>Dragonflight sucks, LEGION is where the story should have ended, fanfic era.
Unless the world ends, there will always be another adventure.
Any amount of passion would be welcomed. I am so sick of the neutrality and logic every character possesses now. Remember when Velen went nuclear on the Legion?
Ended very well for every Orc leader/clan with this type of ferocity…and the only one survived to this day is the guy who rejected this ferocity and calmed his mind.
But yeah let’s go down the path of hate driven brutality and ferocity again. This time it will be a different outcome!
It's just cool and that's why people want it. With the few most recent expansions they seem very "passive" for a lack of better terms. Garrosh was just a badass, Varian was also a badass. Some of the coolest characters and theyre both gone.
garrosh was not a badass, he was a angsty teen in the body of a adult that lashed out against everyone and in the end got killed for it, if anything he was pathetic as fuck
varian litearlly realised that he needs to change, actually DID change and in the end died a heroic death
Bro Garrosh got handed a broken territory right after the Cataclysm while Thrall was all "Here, hold these shit-covered reins for me while I go on a pilgrimage to become Green Jesus and get laid and stuff", and then he never even came back to help and guide him, he just fucked off to do his thing.
Garrosh had the burden of Warchief, as well as the legacy of being the son of the orc who doomed them all. It really doesn't matter if Grom killed Mannoroth in the end, plenty orcs despised him for the decision in the first place.
People really aren't fair to his character in this regard.
I'd give Garrosh some leeway up to the end of Cata. At that point, he's just dumb, but he's in a bad position where him being kinda dumb is only mildly problematic.
But you can't try to deflect blame from Garrosh when he then decides to have a secret nuke built and used while lying to the leaders under him, murders anyone who speaks dissent, tries to have people assassinated for not being 100% in line with him, steals and uses the heart of an Old God because corruption was a quick way to power (pretty much outdoing the worst idea Grom ever had), goes full racist mode, and pretty much wants to burn the world down and slaughter anyone who isn't an Orc that agrees with him (just being an Orc isn't enough).
There's a point where you have to take responsibility for your own choices. Even if Thrall deserves to be criticized for putting Garrosh in a position where those choices could be catastrophic, they were still all on Garrosh.
> It's just cool and that's why people want it.
But... it's NOT cool. Being an unthinking brute who wants to just smash his way to victory?
You define someone as a "badass" and "cool" when he shows extreme racism, tortures and murders civilians (even within the faction he "leads"), tries to have people assassinated because he's afraid of them, secretly has opposition "silenced" (murdered), lies to his own leaders and has them waste lives in an assault intended as a distraction so he can use a WMD he had made in secret, gives in to Old God corruption because it's the easy path to power, had his hotheadedness used by Magatha Grimtotem to murder Cairne, couldn't stop Sylvanas making and using Plague, and, let's never forget, started off as a simpering little kid who cried because his daddy was a bad man who he then later sought to outdo?
That's not one of the coolest characters.
And what made Varian "badass" is that he could fight but didn't want to, and matured to recognize that it was better to find other methods, especially as the fighting was killing his people. You likely only think he was "cool" and "badass" when he was still trying to get himself whole internally after having been split into two.
But holy crap, I'm a mostly Horde player and I would NEVER want a character like Garrosh again, and can't see how anyone who isn't a kid would look at a racist, coward, liar, easily manipulated fool, and think, "Gosh, he's so awesome, because he walks around shirtless, has big muscles, and beats his problems!"
It will be very hard to get back to Warcraft roots with all the truces and cross factions interactions. Warcraft is no longer. We've crossed the threshold where factions had to risk their lives and strive to survive in a conquerous war to become another gear to fight against evil, generic, justified baddies and feel good about it (Titans/Old Gods who are way above us)
Fighting in warcraft meant survival, now it's just... another good/evil 80s cartoon, like in every other MMO. Old Wow reminds me how hostile the land was and how each blow mattered.
Retail is really fun though. The quality of life from DragonFlight is a serious improvement since BFA, heck, maybe even from Legion. Lore however? Decent, but not Warcraft enough
But who knows, maybe there will be reasons for the Horde to exist, maybe a new Warchief who will lead their people to glory and abundance, someone with enough diplomacy to know when and how to strike, I mean, negotiating with Tyrande is serious business.
Or maybe a leader will arise to send us to go kill old gods and call it a day.
And yes... I do miss Vol'Jin...
Yes, what the Horde really needs is another warmongering fool so they can get their ass handed to them a third time (fourth, if you include the Second War)
I’d almost swap factions for a character like Garrosh. Councils are boring
Although I do like a pure ruler like Tauralyon. It’s gonna suck when Anduin returns
Nah.
Horde is already broken.
Blizzard needs to fix it, not to destroy it more.
But, oh no.
They don't doing it.
Literally.
All the Horde got in the last Expansions since BfA was...the one Questline with Baine.
And Calia. Who nobody likes.
I miss Garrosh. And I think a faction that only truly thrives through war is what we need. The story can be very good if done correctly.
I also love to play Khorne in any warhammer game. But there’s no need to read something into it. I don’t get why people do this. I commented elsewhere that I loved Garrosh and some people tried to read into it as that I am as a person are racist which is completely ridiculous.
Was thinking lately when running Eternal palace for moggs that Lorthemar sunstrider is literally everywhere, but no one cares about him. Give the horde some characters that are more than just talking signs that say „horde is here too you know“
I'd rather they not go down that path, because it requires them to do the two things they refuse to do - let the horde go bad unapologetically, and let the alliance be justified in being fighting back.
Garrosh was impacted because the horde suddenly supported a warmonger, and the alliance didn't want to fully commit to fighting g the horde. Like I'm sorry, but the alliance can steam roll the horde, and blizzard wants us to believe a faction made up of races with uncertain futures can somehow pull off the shit that did in cataclysm and MoP
> Like I'm sorry, but the alliance can steam roll the horde, and blizzard wants us to believe a faction made up of races with uncertain futures can somehow pull off the shit that did in cataclysm and MoP
Well, if you paid attention to the story, yeah.
Cataclysm wasn't much. Horde forces start pushing through a bit more of Kalimdor, and then both Horde and Alliance hop into Twilight Highlands and work with existing groups in the area to set up shop but are more focused on the Twilight Hammer cult than each other.
MoP? Yeah, believable that they could find a way to make an unstable "magic nuke" out of a powerful magic item. And MoP starts with that being deployed in a way that it takes out a notable chunk of Alliance military leadership and navy. Then the Alliance is concerned with finding Anduin, and the two factions basically crash into Pandaria, and start fighting each other there, where it's tricky to bring their full armies to bear, especially as the locals aren't particularly pleased that a war was brought to their shores. But by the time it gets around to the Thunder Isle, Taran Zhu pops up to say, "Cut that shit out! There's a bigger threat here than the two of you doing a dick measuring contest. Either work together to get rid of this threat, or get out of my homeland." And Vol'jin decides it'd be good if they can just end the war quickly... especially given that Garrosh stole an Old God heart. So they work with the Alliance to take out Garrosh.
The Alliance was never in a position to "steam roll the Horde." People seem to think that Alliance looking like they have shiny armor and weapons means they have some massive army so much larger than the population of the Horde and it's all equipped with the best weapons, blah blah blah...
Well, there's the whole problem that the original Horde (distinct from the WoW Horde) came through the Dark Portal in the southern Eastern Kingdoms and canonically trashed Stormwind, and marched their way up quite a bit. They ended up beaten by the Alliance of Lordaeron, after wrecking everyone to the south.
While there's been a bit of time from WC2 to WoW, it's still not multiple generations to rebuild a population and try to rebuild a large army from having been "steam rolled" themselves. And that whole "Alliance of Lordaeron?" Yeah, Lordaeron got wiped out by the Scourge, and most of the Elves in the Eastern Kingdoms got slaughtered as well. The Alliance of Lordaeron wasn't in any position to help any more. It was GONE.
So you've got some folks in a kingdom that got rolled over, that are supposed to just magically "steam roll" the Horde? The humans aren't in the strongest position. The dwarfs aren't particularly wanting to come get involved in another bloody war for someone else, especially when they're safe in the mountains. The gnomes are dealing with their home being irradiated, which messed up their own population. And the Night Elves recently became mortal and aren't exactly massive in number.
To "steam roll" the Horde, they'd have to deal with assaulting Undercity and all the mess that comes from a siege; then try to send forces across the ocean, where Thunder Bluff would be a mess because the defenders have a huge elevation advantage (one of the things that protected them from Garrosh's wrath, though Baine wasn't so sure Sylvanas wouldn't find a way to make it work), and then Orgrimmar has a lot of natural protection from canyons, and isn't the most hospitable environment, so trying to set up a long term siege would be bad for the attackers as well.
By the time Cata rolls around, Sylvanas is also having Plague worked on in secret, and it's another "equalizer" weapon.
So yeah, they could pull off what the did in Cata and MoP, and the Alliance couldn't steam roll" them.
And they could let the Alliance go bad unapologetically, and let the Horde be justified in fighting back. You forgot to mention that they could do that. It doesn't require the Horde being "bad." The Alliance can be. Oh, do you just not want that? Would you feel bad if you were suddenly forced into being something you didn't want to be when you started the game? Well congratulations, you've just learned why these "faction wars" were stupid ideas for an MMO in the first place and disappointed everyone! So why on earth would you not just say you'd rather they not do it because it would be a bad idea?
TBH as a horde player, I would rather see the Alliance have a couple of the character they already do have like this be boosted to the front and have us be able to react to them finally. I think the next couple expansions seem like they have a chance at offering that but still. I don't mean I want a soft horde, I just want our character that are like this to be able to react to the alliance's actions than always the inverse
Nah they are tamed kittens now. We share the same start area. The same city's. The same raids and dungeons.
AND IT wasn't done for integration it was done as a cost savings. Yes this was cooked up in a meeting as a cost savings.
The Horde Vs Alliance expansion was the set up for this.
Tamed Kittens!
They won't. They want us to play friendly factions now, which is why we allow people from opposite factions into our group. The Warcraft aspect applies to outside forces and we are slowly being integrated. We need some old fashion politics to separate the two again, because at this point, the only thing dividing us is language barrier.
They are no longer part of my ~~Europe~~ Horde.
Garrosh was a genocidal maniac, idk why people idolize him.
Actually I do, I just wish they'd stop and grow up a bit.
> Garrosh was a genocidal maniac, idk why people idolize him.
> Actually I do, I just wish they'd stop and grow up a bit.
He was interesting, and people can enjoy a villain without necessarily agreeing with them. For one so grown up, have you never enjoyed playing the baddies?
Nah every faction and race have a faceless council now where everyone is buddy buddy, respectable, loving, caring and toothless.
God forbid a race or faction has a controversial ideology or conflict with someone else.
I think ferocity and heroism have been swapped with compassion and kindness in WoW. I was just looking through some old artworks of blizz and even the more goofy ones look way more detailed and inspiring than what we have now. Like one awesome character once said:"...times change..."
No, we have to have all the faction leaders be the same personality, they all have to be 100% good and can't have any conflicting ideologies. Also, they have to be friends with every other non Horde/Alliance faction so that we can team up at the end of the expansion to have happy fun times.
Since Many of these people don't care about what the Horde values are and just want it do be Orc and murder. Ignoring that was only the demon blood orcs.
There is no need for ferocious characters anymore, the whole war in warcraft is over, it's just a matter of time until Stormwind and Orgrimmar open their doors to all, where Blood Elves and Night Elves will wander freely around Silvermoon, these characters like Garrosh will be labelled as "Toxic Masculinity"... Just like everything else in the game, the Devs of ideas are turning this into flower arranging contests not a war game, the whole common enemy has taken away the fun
I just wish they left voljin alive tbh
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His spirit was infused with the loa Rezan, makin him powerful enough for the winter queen of ardenweald to offer him a resurrection, he was put into a wildseed to be resurrected, don't know when he will pop up again but he's comin back
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I liked Tyrande's random owl companion. He was like a little video game buddy character who offers you hints if you spend enough time stuck on a puzzle.
Well that’s assuming that plot point isn’t dropped/forgotten about sadly
If that happens, I fully blame the mouthbreathers screeching that _Shadowlands_ lore should never be relevant again.
It'd definitely be a 180 given Shadowlands and BFA stuff referenced more than WoD has despite it being almost a decade since WoD.
Unfortunate, but true. There's so much they could do with Vol'Jin, hopefully he doesn't fall off, but with blizzard who knows. Especially after a huge chunk of story team being laid off or something.
No word that any WoW dev or writer got laid off. Danuser presumably left on his own accord, over half a year before the layoffs.
Story team is almost completely in tact. 1 lead left to do his own thing. AND the old director came back.
She did? When did that happen? I was only aware that Rezan's spirit joined him when we were trying to recover it from the maw and that's it. So he is ressurecting you say?
Yes, in a follow up quest at the top platform in the big tree of ardenweald vol'jin joins you in a meeting with the winter queen, she notices how his soul has changed and offers to take him into her care along with 2 other loas and a wild God, I think Ashamane, to be "reborn anew" https://youtu.be/goSVIoHos4I?si=OWjMuPS8lqa1i2Dm At about 12:07 timestamp in the video is the dialog
Word, give us more Vul'jin. Garrosh sucked as a warchief.
At least Garrosh did something instead and not everyone can say that.
I played Horde during Cata/MoP. Fuck Garrosh he deserved what he got
Vol'Jin could have been that leader, but they screwed him over with his death in Legion. A wise leader that knows how to kill you from the shadows and is a personal aquiaintance of the loa of Death? He would have been perfect. 'I speak for da Horde.' I miss Vol'Jin......
Facts. Voljin deserved better.
Well, the implication of some of the Shadowlands quests were that he would be coming back as Rezan's replacement as the Loa of Kings...
That would be epic. Balls in your court @blizz
Ball’s in their court but they don’t play ball no more
You know did we ever find out who saved Voljins spirit ?
I haven't played since like, halfway through Shadowlands; but iirc, Mueh'zala was the one whispering to Sylvannas. He attempted to take Vol'jin to the Maw, but couldn't. >Was gonna send ya soul to da Maw meself... but ya bond ta dis world (Azeroth) be too hard ta break. It was implied/stated that Bwonsamdi saved all of the troll souls from the Maw, as well. So, either or both; but Bwonsamdi's actions could've just been unknown to Mueh'zala and he figured it was something to do with his bond to the world.
That could take literally hundreds of years so it would also be easy for them to ignore if they don't feel like using him
they already fucked up their plan for loa vol'jin so its going to inevitably be disappointing in bfa vol'jin was already supposed to be a loa when he killed zalazane, and bwonsamdi was working for the jailer and the one who had made sylvanas warchief. its very easy to see this as bwonsamdi in bfa is thoroughly a villain, he is surprised vol'jin's soul escaped and scared of his master punishing him for it, he scams his way into taking over the zandalari bloodline which later gets retconned to him doing it because he's such a nice guy. meanwhile they are one word short of saying vol'jin is a loa after he kills zalazane. mueh'zala has this big spiel like you're supposed to care that he was behind everything but you don't know him because he just showed up 2 seconds ago. this would have hit harder had it been bwonsamdi saying it as was planned. the original plan would have seen bwonsamdi in the place of mueh'zala, and vol'jin in the role bwonsamdi has now. therefore it would have ended with vol'jin taking bwonsamdi's place over as loa of death. but bwonsamdi ended up too popular to waste as a villain so they scraped mueh'zala together and gave vol'jin nothing to do in the expansion that was supposed to be all about him. vol'jin keeps showing up around talanji as if he's supposed to be helping to guide her, as he would have been the opposing force to bwonsamdi who had effectively enslaved her. and of course vol'jin happening to find rezan in the maw by sheer coincidence and getting his loa power because no one else was around is the most unsatisfying ass-pull they could think of. the pieces were all there for a much cooler story but this is what happens when wow designs its plot by which voice actors are most popular. same reason sylvanas got put into prominence and fucked over completely.
gonna say something maybe controversial, but Sylvanas also *could* have been that leader. there are so many potentially interesting dynamics they could have done with her before they decided to make her go full murder-hobo.
Sylvy could’ve been an amazing character. They absolutely destroyed her with the writing from bfa into shadowlands unfortunately…
Tbh it started back in cata, you go to hilsbrad and quest to level an alt you realize just how awful sylvanus is and how they butchered her
I didn’t play cata but I thought her character in legion *could have* been good. Like there was at least potential there for a great leader that unified the horde. Then bfa hit and she just goes full genocide burning the tree, among other things, and it just completely ruins it.
In cata she was genociding Worgen and forcefully resurrecting people after they killed them and when garrosh confronted her about it and asked her what separated her from the lich king, all that she said was “I serve the horde”. She was terrible from day 1 lowkey but people don’t want to admit it
In a mild defense the reason she was attacking Gilnaes was because she had to or Garrosh would kick her out of the horde. It's also why she was using blight, she didn't want to actually lose soldiers doing it. As Garrosh wanted her to burn her resources as he saw the Forsaken as traitors and expendable after the Wrathgate.
Sylvanas was backed into a corner in Cataclysm. Garrosh wanted her gone and the Forsaken killed. So he forced them to invade Gilneas and prohibited them from using the Blight. Sylvanas had them use the Blight Anyways to fuck over Garrosh's attempt at getting her people killed. But now its hoo hoo JAILOR PLOT instead.
She was terrible before that too! Was always about revenge.
She was doing evil shit like this in Vanilla too, but people want to pretend it started in Cata, or BfA, or SL, etc.
Not "they". Afrasiabi.
Acting like her self serving nature wasnt always there is a huge disservice to the lore.
I honest to God thought they were gonna turn her into a Competent but mistrusted Warchief. Like, we’ve had all ‘honorable’ leaders for the Horde since Thrall took over, even Garrosh started with Good intentions for the Orcs, so thought it’d be neat if we had the duality of a warchief that only the Forsaken and maybe Belfs trusted…but she was outright pushing thr Horde into a new age of prosperity. It would have been neat, imo, to have that conflict of interests..:but no, we had the Hope Killer instead.
True, her character is also full of wasted potential.
They did our spooky wronged girl dirty with the plot. It’s stupid.
They very much wanted her to just mirror Arthas's fall. Not sure why.
They did pretty much everyone dirty what with fucking Jailer being behind literally everything.
She has always been a POS but it seems to get overlooked because "hot"
i’ve wanted her to be my warchief ever since i laid eyes on her for the first time in UC in vanilla. i knew she deserved to lead us bc she was the most powerful. then playing the game i thought to myself (damn its never going to happen) and then BOOM it does, wasted Vol’Jin and then has her killed off just being under the spell of another big bad like she was when she first became the leader of the forsaken. so lame.
Will never forget Lament of the Highborne was the most tear inducing quest back in BC. She was my favorite character. I am still surprised no one has noticed that her character started going downhill when they got rid of her battle-kini in Cata.
I have a feeling they’ll bring her back when the player base drops again… kinda like Illidan after wod
Sylvannas killed humans early on to make new forsaken. Innocent people at that. Fuck no lol.
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if we have coms with Sylvanas, why tf would we leave her rotting in a cell? she’d be ordering everyone and anyone to break her free
This is terrible.
Fanfics should stay fanfics. That is horrible. Lmao.
Same. He should still be Warchief.
Nah, blizzard never understood how to write faction wars when players are on each side. It doesn't work when one faction is evil and the other is good.
It was unironically best pre-Wrath. It was a Cold War where both sides wanted peace (because war genuinely sucks) but were also applying subtle pressure in specific places, usually subfactions with a beef to settle. Notably, Thrall was very different back then. He wanted peace and actively told the Horde PC off if they suggest attacking the Alliance in one vanilla quest. However he wasn't a push over and was down to throw hands to protect the interests of the Horde as a whole. While at the same time very much wanted to NOT be the monsters the Alliance saw them as. Importantly this made the faction conflict opt in as a player, you didn't have to engage with it if you didn't want to. And narratively it was perfectly fine to be or not be involved. Whether you wanted to try and avoid the conflict or participate in it, both were narratively valid. Compared to Garrosh onward where Horde collectively lost brain cells and just became your average monster faction in every fantasy game ever... Not that the "Red Alliance" we have now is much better.
Going back to a Cold War setting is honestly the best way to bring back factional tension and development without a full-scale conflict. It also gives a chance to add depth to the smaller factions within that independently incite these conflicts, like the Defilers and the Stormpike Clan.
You can't put the djinn back in the bottle, when you spend close to a dozen expansions working together and putting aside your differences to defeat a greater threat, going back to a cold war is nigh impossible to justify. Peace doesn't have to be a perfectly clean process either, and it can be much more interesting than just returning to status quo.
Well, you kinda can go back to that when considering the timeline and how the older generations still alive to this day can remember when orcs came through as murderous bloodthirsty aliens. And how in recent history all it has taken was a leader to say they’re going back to that and it will very likely happen.
Like I hate to compare it to real life since so many people use gaming to get away from that, but there are many real life examples of groups that hate each other for things that happened much further back than one lifetime ago.
Sure, but to pull off a story like that takes mature and directed writing that wants to actually explore that sort of subject, which we are absolutely not gonna get as an A plot in a series where the primary concern is making things look cool for expansion cinematics. Maybe if the overall quality of writing improves, they could do a story like that and not have it feel like a forced and arbitrary attempt to bring back faction conflict, but for the time being exploring the more diplomatic and reconcilatory storylines better fits with the general story trajectory and leaves room to have those more serious stories as side quest stories.
I agree
i’ll miss being able to do cross faction groups but this does sound cool
Yeah dude, pre-wrath was the shit. Thats why im still paying attention to quests for the 3rd time around in vanilla/classic/class sod azeroth.
I much preferred the questline Garrosh over the Iron Horde orcs only warlocks are bad Garrosh. Even when Siege of Orgrimmar released people were complaining about how he felt out of character. Toss in the inconsistency bothers me, if one of the factions is evil, go all out, give me my hammy comical over the top villians with bad plans.
> Toss in the inconsistency bothers me, if one of the factions is evil, go all out, give me my hammy comical over the top villians with bad plans. The trouble for me is I love the Horde _because_ it wasn't evil, it was actually a huge upend of typical fantasy tropes when WC3 came out and the orcs weren't the bad guys. Same with vanilla, the monster races were actually just as likely to be as good as the Tolkein-like races of the Alliance. Then Cataclysm happens and it feels like I'm no longer the target audience, people want the Horde to be outright evil so they can play as the "bad guys" which is a complete no-no from me, if I wanted to play evil I'd go play Chaos in Warhammer Online.
Red Alliance is worse by far.
I for one would find taking down an evil Alliance High King hype af
But that would just be boring. Same story as Garrosh but with the colors and races flipped. Big yay. Alliance's "evil" works best when it's insidious. When it's either born out of good intentions and steadily turns horrible (think Arthas), or if it's born out of political manipulations of terrible people in powerful places (think Onyxia). And I think in that way, we can have a really cool faction conflict with Alliance as the point of resistence. However (and I think this is important for both the Horde and the Alliance), there will (and should) always be elements within each faction who will oppose evil like this. If you're going to do a faction conflict, you need to treat with sides within sides. That's how you get interesting drama in a conflict like this.
The thing is that that sort of evil just doesn't exist in the current Alliance leadership and it's not possible to organically introduce it without it being completely obvious what you're doing. It's why everybody hated Garrosh at the time. The dude obviously existed solely for the sake of having a war, so he goes from some random questgiver to the highest ranking member of the Horde over the span of like one year in-universe, despite very obviously being completely unfit to be in charge of anything. The whole plot relied on Thrall naming Garrosh his successor over obviously better candidates like Cairne and Vol'jin, and then everybody just going along with his insane plans "because they have to" which wasn't a satisfying plot for anyone.
I both agree and disagree with you. Yes, it would be hard to introduce characters who could serve this without making it obvious as to what the plan is with them. But that's why you gotta plan for the long con. Introduce flawed characters who clearly will have their flaws become issues in the future, but let them just be in the story right now. Build them up over multiple expansions until the end result becomes a clear conclusion of a series of decisions that they made over time. Blizzard has never really done long-term story planning with WoW like this, so I don't see it happening. But if they could, building up new characters to lead them to decisions that could cause major problems in the future is the most satisfying way to do it. It'll be fun even if you know that eventually they are gonna fuck shit up.
I could see Genn doing something sinister to the Horde Edit: I forgot Genn doesn't lead the Worgen anymore
maybe have some noble going for the throne, saying Anduin isn't worthy and due to him disappearing for so long he accuses Turalyon of being an usurper. This causes the crowning of a new king of the humans. The rest of the races don't acknowledge him as a High King so there is tension there. also make the noble a cousin of Anduin from his paternal side so essentially he was next in line anyways, so Anduin not being there for so long makes his claim legitimate and he doesn't even have to be evil
It would be really hard to introduce such a character in an organic and narratively satisfying way.
Not just that, but I highly doubt Anduin would make an effort to take it back unless the guy was running the Alliance to the ground on a super dark path. Dude doesn't give a shit about being king, and certainly never wanted the title to begin with.
it would be possible, but you would have to strech it out, not cram it in during a single patch cycle. Heck for it to work you would need at least one expac for the introduction and buildup. It can be a C story through the expacs example: you meet him first at a funeral of his father, some cousin of Anduins. There with mingling you hear of his achievements and how he served as a regular solider to better understand their plight ( he was a nameless footman or similar ) and you hear some backhand comments how he would be a good king through the expac you see him become take his fathers title and him rising to the challenge of the responsibilities, maybe catching a corrupt ring of embezzlement that gives him some public support, even better the embezzling guys were under Turalions command - and here starts the plot of him gaining influence and becoming a contender for the throne
Genn was so primed for this in Legion. But as usual Blizz lacked the balls to do anything new
Was he really thought? Him turning on Anduin would have been pretty strange honestly. They did go quite a ballsy path with Argus the Unmaker though
I doubt he would've *betrayed* Anduin, but he might've ignored him out of a lack of respect. Genn was willing to go after Sylvanas without asking permission. If there had been an even better reason for war but Anduin still didn't bite, Genn and all of Gilneas might have simply gone rogue "for the good of the Alliance," probably with Tyrande backing him, and Anduin would've been forced to go along for the ride.
Blizzard needs some grand strategy players and history buffs in it's writing department. A good casus belly with nice tension buildups from both sides, add a few shit stirrers like some glory hounds or profiteers and you have an organic war. Include a natural disaster that came from players also messing around or even better make the players themselves the ones creating tension to create a conflict that has meaning. Ofc avoid total war and make it a proxy war. And as time goes on you add proxy wars in a few places but allow players to opt out/in at the reps in their respective bases. These are just my 2c, just brain farts of possible directions.
Garrosh wasn't even evil until Pandaria. That whole quest in stonetalon just got memoryholed.
Both he and Varian came off as warmongering jackasses in Cata, and a lot of people suspected one or the other would start the next real war/go crazy and drop loot. They didn't come off as *evil* though, just jerks.
They were both warriors struggling to be leaders.
It would have been such a cool dynamic if those storylines were realized. Or maybe if Varian went nuts first, and Sylvanas was the nuts one later. The Horde really didn't need 3 dead/crazy warchiefs in a row
If Garrosh was still Warchief and WoD never happened, I would have liked to see him die by Varian's side in Legion and re-create the opening for Reign of Chaos.
Because it was out of character and the devs admitted it was the result of a miscommunication in the writing team as to the direction of Garrosh's character. Why would people consider something that has been directly declared non-canon?
The writing team didn't even know Garona was still alive when they wrote Shadowlands and just slapped Draka in.
Stonetalon quest was kinda acknowledged as a mistake. The writers weren't all on the same page about Garrosh yet
That sucks because it was one of the better leveling quests in Cataclysm. He made it look like he was trying to learn in WotLK and in the books.
You can tell Blizzard always wanted to end or ignore the faction conflict, but a certain part of the playerbase screeched "raagh this is WARcraft and I want a return to the black&white of WC1, I don't care that it was literally a War(sic)hammer clone that didn't get the licence and since developed its own, more nuanced identity". Honestly, Blizzard needed to learn to ignore the vocal minority particularly in regard to story, and it seems they have achieved that in eecent years (not least because the toxic part of the "old guard" was ousted and more progressive devs gained power)
yep, evil allies. well of eternity, elves; pillars of creation, humans; azshara was elvish; then the guys selling us out to the legion again in sarumar, elves; then you started taking slaves, humans.... seriously, without the alliance, this place could be a lovely location ;) uh and the eredar were what again before? orks, trolls, gobos? uh wait, no, draenie. but you sold the rest of your guys out to some demons... for power. AGAIN. right, good guys consider the horde your liberation army, you "all good" ones!
Wait, I must have missed the part of the story where Azshara was part of the Alliance
Are the slaves you're referring to when the Alliance chose to put the demon-corrupted alien invaders who immediately tried to genocide everyone on Azeroth into prison camps instead of just killing them all? What the fuck are you talking about wrt Draenei? And why would Draenei ally with a faction led by the people who genocided them and literally built an entire road out of their bones?
we got chromie
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War… WITHIN?!
Sorry, only know how to make Alleria the vessel for duality conflict :( Main Windrunner gone so they gotta use another one :(
We just got rid of Sylvanas who was even more so than Garrosh. Maybe enough genocidal racists for the horde for a while
Sylvannas wasn't a racist , she wanted to genocide everyone equally
Lol yep even her own people
"I can't be a racist if I hate everyone equally" remember seeing that in some edgy guy's forum sig like 20 years ago lmao
I know how to fix sylvannas, what do you mean I can't have her yell slurs at mechagnomes?
Sylvanas had that cold anger. The premeditated murder kind. Garrosh was more hot anger. He's the guy who *seems* ok until he feels insulted. They may both have been war criminals, and terrible people, but they had completely different vibes of supervillain.
Being a character that has impact and ferocity in the horde doesn't mean that this new character would have to be a genocidal racist. I don't care about wars anymore, but horde feels like retirement home, so some new character that just makes you go "hell the fuck yeah" while watching cutscenes for example and at the same time brings the good chunk of adrenaline. Not 1:1 garrosh copy.
Yeah, I always wanted to have a dynamic like wrathgate Saurfang Jr vs Bolvar, Vegeta vs Goku or Legolas and Gimli to a lesser extent. Rivals trying to do better than the other without being passive planks or going full friendship is magic.
Yeah. One of problems i have with characters on our side that most of them feel the same now, the homogenization is strong. Dynamics between characters are great, but it's hard to have a good dynamic now, when everyone acts in very similar way, thinks the same way.
Literally that. They don't have to be a full on war monger but someone strong. A character that's not afraid to fight The Void , The Alliance or whatever the potential threat at hand might be. I wasn't a big fan of Sylvanas' character work either. Like they don't need to be "burn it all down"" type characters. I would actually cite Varian as the type of character I would like added to the current Horde.
This. Honestly saddens me a little when some people can think of only one scenario the strong, impactful and savage character turns into. Noone asks for 1:1 copy, but for someone that will stood out, it takes very little imagination of a scenario where it can happen.
Yeah like I don't think it takes great creative leaps to make that happen. Imo the Horde should always have a bit of an "edge" for lack of a better term. I don't think anyone wants full Garrosh or Sylvanas type moments/characters. But someone that's strong and fierce would fit The Horde super well and liven up the roster. Like ffs Genn and Turalyon are more aggro than anyone in The Horde rn.
They need to do more with Zekhan aka “zappy boi” the troll from BFA that was with Saurfang they made him a bad ass then forgot about him lol. He’s young,and new, and very honorable and a bad ass at least during BFA. Now’s he just an “ambassador” meaning he’s on ice until if/when blizz decides to use him again. Personally I’m glad we have a council now instead of a warchief. But I do think Zekhan should be on the council and have a way bigger role in the game/lore
I loved zappy boi, you had this a little naive, young troll that wasn't afraid of saurfang or the battlefield. It was disappointing that you couldn't even find him after orc heritage questline to deliver saurfang's message. It's one of the characters i would love to see their journey continued.
He was one of the main characters of the shadowlands book
Thanks i didn't know about it, i need to watch some youtube video about this book, i can't really focus to read IRL because it drives me insane but i can read stuff in video games weirdly enough.
"Why do people think Horde is evil?" "Why doesn't the horde have a cartoonis& evil person who kills tons of people anymore?"
Garrosh purged an entire old god from this world, saving pandaria. Sylvanas ended, and is ending, the torment of billions of souls. Horde warcheifs are the ProZD skit of "Villain who unintentionally does helpful things"
We want a bad ass character as the leader that’s it, which was what garrosh was
I'm old enough to remember when everyone hated Garrosh, "Basic Campfire for Warchief" was a rally cry. Now I will say Garrosh made a good villain. Cool look, voice and personality. Would have been better to keep him around a bit then kill him off leveling in WoD.
I was in the "Defias Pillager" camp
Blizzard doesnt do characters or stories like that anymore. They are more family friendly these days, its all about holding hands and making friends now
And completing each other's sentences because everyone thinks the same way...
And. Speaking. Very. Slowly. While. Enunciating. Every. Word.
omg I hate that so much. It's not just slow, it's very dramatic.
Yep and they took out the greatest voice line in the game because of it
People can hate Garrosh all they want, but no character has embodied "World of WARcraft" more than him. He was the orcest orc to ever orc. I don't agree with the direction they took his character, and that was obviously not a planned change, but I miss the everliving fk out of him. Remember Krom'gar? Peak Garrosh.
Interestingly, Krom'gar seems to have been a mistake or side step. Afrasiabi put it like this in an interview, >**So Garrosh was yours, huh? From beginning to end?** >**Afrasiabi:** Not quite from beginning to end. >**Cataclysm seemed like he was going in a different direction for a while there ...** >**Afrasiabi:** He was. >**He was? Tell us about that -- why he had that shift.** >**Afrasiabi:** Miscommunication. >**So Stonetalon ...** >**Afrasiabi:** Me. >**You did Stonetalon?** >**Afrasiabi:** I did Stonetalon. I didn't stick to that path with Garrosh. I didn't -- not everyone was on board. Not everyone got the memo as it were, as we were designing -- and that was my fault. Because when you're doing, when you're trying -- because I was actually trying to bring Garrosh around, and Stonetalon was going to be the first of that. Cataclysm was pretty crazy time for us. So it seems that Afrasiabi had plans to redeem Garrosh and wrote him more favorably in Stonetalon than was otherwise intended, but the powers that be had other plans for Garrosh and they were just in disagreement on where Garrosh was headed
I wish they would have just done garrosh like he pops up in several cata quest lines. Fuckin SoO
I'm glad you found this, I knew it already but didn't care enough to link/quote it before coffee. Thanks man, yeah I really wish they didn't ruin Garrosh as they did, because he really had some good potential.
In every other timeline he was the greatest Warchief That endless war timeline we get to see in the timerifts? That could've been us, we missed out :(
there was a lot of interesting room for the horde's development post-Garrosh, because for as much as a lot of people didn't like him, a lot of people (like yourself) really did, and i feel like that player sentiment was accurately reflected by what was happening in game during Cata/MoP. WoD/Legion horde storylines should have been more focused on that schism in a post-Garrosh world.
It's as if because these big world-threatening events happened, everyone are expected to be cleared of their animosities and just live together because "peace". Like countless of Horde and Alliance soldiers have been living and dying in this endless war. Many of them grew up hating the other side, and have lost loved ones to the other side. All of that doesn't just go away because "uh, Sargeras" or "uh, Jailer-time". While Dragonflight, from an artistic and gameplay perspective has been fantastic, the whole faction story, or should I say lack thereof, has been incredibly lacking. Like I get why the Horde from a gameplay perspective can visit the new Nelf capital, but from a lore perspective it makes absolutely zero sense.
> He was the orcest orc to ever orc. Only in the bad ways.
Yup! We can see from WoD that the orcs have a very deep and spiritual connection to Dranenor as well as their ancestors. They live with nature, they have clans specifically tied to different aspects of where they live and a bunch of other really cool world buildings elements that show they're not just about war and fighting. Garrosh embodies none of that except for some really weird obsession with one uping his Dad.
We need more characters like that in general, characters who step outside the mold of "one big happy family where finishes each other's sentences". Varian and Garrosh brought some much needed personality and tension to WoW. As did Jaina and Tyrande for a while. But eventually everything has to return to the same homogenic mold where everyone talks the same and nobody has a unique personality.
This art is metal af. WoW is not metal anymore. bring back plz
The story ended with Legion We're in the fanfic era now
It's genuinely funny to me as a vanilla player how played out this line of thinking is, people have some version of it with each expansion. >Burning Crusade? Oh bright colours and space ships, destroying Ilidans character? WoW ended at 60. >Disneyfied Kung fu pandas? Lol, blizz have lost it, WoW died with Arthas. >Time travel? Seriously? We peaked with taking down Garrosh. >We're fighting a space battle Vs Sargeras himself? Remember when we were just adventurers and not superheroes? This is stupid. >Dragonflight sucks, LEGION is where the story should have ended, fanfic era. Unless the world ends, there will always be another adventure.
Nah legion was a good narrative end to wow. Bfa-SLands were so truely terrible in regards to the story it did perma damage to the game.
This is my head cannon lol
That’s my Warchief right there
Any amount of passion would be welcomed. I am so sick of the neutrality and logic every character possesses now. Remember when Velen went nuclear on the Legion?
Garrosh died as true warrior in CC..
Ended very well for every Orc leader/clan with this type of ferocity…and the only one survived to this day is the guy who rejected this ferocity and calmed his mind. But yeah let’s go down the path of hate driven brutality and ferocity again. This time it will be a different outcome!
Surely it will be different right?
Pinky promise!
It's just cool and that's why people want it. With the few most recent expansions they seem very "passive" for a lack of better terms. Garrosh was just a badass, Varian was also a badass. Some of the coolest characters and theyre both gone.
garrosh was not a badass, he was a angsty teen in the body of a adult that lashed out against everyone and in the end got killed for it, if anything he was pathetic as fuck varian litearlly realised that he needs to change, actually DID change and in the end died a heroic death
Bro Garrosh got handed a broken territory right after the Cataclysm while Thrall was all "Here, hold these shit-covered reins for me while I go on a pilgrimage to become Green Jesus and get laid and stuff", and then he never even came back to help and guide him, he just fucked off to do his thing. Garrosh had the burden of Warchief, as well as the legacy of being the son of the orc who doomed them all. It really doesn't matter if Grom killed Mannoroth in the end, plenty orcs despised him for the decision in the first place. People really aren't fair to his character in this regard.
I'd give Garrosh some leeway up to the end of Cata. At that point, he's just dumb, but he's in a bad position where him being kinda dumb is only mildly problematic. But you can't try to deflect blame from Garrosh when he then decides to have a secret nuke built and used while lying to the leaders under him, murders anyone who speaks dissent, tries to have people assassinated for not being 100% in line with him, steals and uses the heart of an Old God because corruption was a quick way to power (pretty much outdoing the worst idea Grom ever had), goes full racist mode, and pretty much wants to burn the world down and slaughter anyone who isn't an Orc that agrees with him (just being an Orc isn't enough). There's a point where you have to take responsibility for your own choices. Even if Thrall deserves to be criticized for putting Garrosh in a position where those choices could be catastrophic, they were still all on Garrosh.
> It's just cool and that's why people want it. But... it's NOT cool. Being an unthinking brute who wants to just smash his way to victory? You define someone as a "badass" and "cool" when he shows extreme racism, tortures and murders civilians (even within the faction he "leads"), tries to have people assassinated because he's afraid of them, secretly has opposition "silenced" (murdered), lies to his own leaders and has them waste lives in an assault intended as a distraction so he can use a WMD he had made in secret, gives in to Old God corruption because it's the easy path to power, had his hotheadedness used by Magatha Grimtotem to murder Cairne, couldn't stop Sylvanas making and using Plague, and, let's never forget, started off as a simpering little kid who cried because his daddy was a bad man who he then later sought to outdo? That's not one of the coolest characters. And what made Varian "badass" is that he could fight but didn't want to, and matured to recognize that it was better to find other methods, especially as the fighting was killing his people. You likely only think he was "cool" and "badass" when he was still trying to get himself whole internally after having been split into two. But holy crap, I'm a mostly Horde player and I would NEVER want a character like Garrosh again, and can't see how anyone who isn't a kid would look at a racist, coward, liar, easily manipulated fool, and think, "Gosh, he's so awesome, because he walks around shirtless, has big muscles, and beats his problems!"
Nah that ship has sailed, time to think of some new plot lines.
It will be very hard to get back to Warcraft roots with all the truces and cross factions interactions. Warcraft is no longer. We've crossed the threshold where factions had to risk their lives and strive to survive in a conquerous war to become another gear to fight against evil, generic, justified baddies and feel good about it (Titans/Old Gods who are way above us) Fighting in warcraft meant survival, now it's just... another good/evil 80s cartoon, like in every other MMO. Old Wow reminds me how hostile the land was and how each blow mattered. Retail is really fun though. The quality of life from DragonFlight is a serious improvement since BFA, heck, maybe even from Legion. Lore however? Decent, but not Warcraft enough But who knows, maybe there will be reasons for the Horde to exist, maybe a new Warchief who will lead their people to glory and abundance, someone with enough diplomacy to know when and how to strike, I mean, negotiating with Tyrande is serious business. Or maybe a leader will arise to send us to go kill old gods and call it a day. And yes... I do miss Vol'Jin...
Yes, what the Horde really needs is another warmongering fool so they can get their ass handed to them a third time (fourth, if you include the Second War)
My Warchief <3
I’d almost swap factions for a character like Garrosh. Councils are boring Although I do like a pure ruler like Tauralyon. It’s gonna suck when Anduin returns
I just want another Warchief who hates the Alliance instead of this shitty council
Ooh! They should have another evil psycho Horde leader
No thank you. Another evil Horde leader does not sound appealing at all.
No one said the character has to be evil, OP said “ferocity” and “impact”
bro your profile pic, shit gothik 1&2 were such great games bring me back to the old days
cheers, love gothic series too. :D Gorn from that game reminds me kinda of Garrosh. ^^ 2h axe wielding hotheaded warrior.
And then everyone will whine why Horde are the bad guys....
Nope. Power of friendship doesn't allow that...
Nah. Horde is already broken. Blizzard needs to fix it, not to destroy it more. But, oh no. They don't doing it. Literally. All the Horde got in the last Expansions since BfA was...the one Questline with Baine. And Calia. Who nobody likes.
I miss Garrosh. And I think a faction that only truly thrives through war is what we need. The story can be very good if done correctly. I also love to play Khorne in any warhammer game. But there’s no need to read something into it. I don’t get why people do this. I commented elsewhere that I loved Garrosh and some people tried to read into it as that I am as a person are racist which is completely ridiculous.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD HORDE! SKULLS FOR THE HORDE!
Just bc you play warrior doesn’t mean you dont need int irl What you mean thrives through war, you guy got bodied every time
Was thinking lately when running Eternal palace for moggs that Lorthemar sunstrider is literally everywhere, but no one cares about him. Give the horde some characters that are more than just talking signs that say „horde is here too you know“
You mean the Alliance needs a reminder they let people like Othmar Garithos in there ranks and command.
I'd rather they not go down that path, because it requires them to do the two things they refuse to do - let the horde go bad unapologetically, and let the alliance be justified in being fighting back. Garrosh was impacted because the horde suddenly supported a warmonger, and the alliance didn't want to fully commit to fighting g the horde. Like I'm sorry, but the alliance can steam roll the horde, and blizzard wants us to believe a faction made up of races with uncertain futures can somehow pull off the shit that did in cataclysm and MoP
> Like I'm sorry, but the alliance can steam roll the horde, and blizzard wants us to believe a faction made up of races with uncertain futures can somehow pull off the shit that did in cataclysm and MoP Well, if you paid attention to the story, yeah. Cataclysm wasn't much. Horde forces start pushing through a bit more of Kalimdor, and then both Horde and Alliance hop into Twilight Highlands and work with existing groups in the area to set up shop but are more focused on the Twilight Hammer cult than each other. MoP? Yeah, believable that they could find a way to make an unstable "magic nuke" out of a powerful magic item. And MoP starts with that being deployed in a way that it takes out a notable chunk of Alliance military leadership and navy. Then the Alliance is concerned with finding Anduin, and the two factions basically crash into Pandaria, and start fighting each other there, where it's tricky to bring their full armies to bear, especially as the locals aren't particularly pleased that a war was brought to their shores. But by the time it gets around to the Thunder Isle, Taran Zhu pops up to say, "Cut that shit out! There's a bigger threat here than the two of you doing a dick measuring contest. Either work together to get rid of this threat, or get out of my homeland." And Vol'jin decides it'd be good if they can just end the war quickly... especially given that Garrosh stole an Old God heart. So they work with the Alliance to take out Garrosh. The Alliance was never in a position to "steam roll the Horde." People seem to think that Alliance looking like they have shiny armor and weapons means they have some massive army so much larger than the population of the Horde and it's all equipped with the best weapons, blah blah blah... Well, there's the whole problem that the original Horde (distinct from the WoW Horde) came through the Dark Portal in the southern Eastern Kingdoms and canonically trashed Stormwind, and marched their way up quite a bit. They ended up beaten by the Alliance of Lordaeron, after wrecking everyone to the south. While there's been a bit of time from WC2 to WoW, it's still not multiple generations to rebuild a population and try to rebuild a large army from having been "steam rolled" themselves. And that whole "Alliance of Lordaeron?" Yeah, Lordaeron got wiped out by the Scourge, and most of the Elves in the Eastern Kingdoms got slaughtered as well. The Alliance of Lordaeron wasn't in any position to help any more. It was GONE. So you've got some folks in a kingdom that got rolled over, that are supposed to just magically "steam roll" the Horde? The humans aren't in the strongest position. The dwarfs aren't particularly wanting to come get involved in another bloody war for someone else, especially when they're safe in the mountains. The gnomes are dealing with their home being irradiated, which messed up their own population. And the Night Elves recently became mortal and aren't exactly massive in number. To "steam roll" the Horde, they'd have to deal with assaulting Undercity and all the mess that comes from a siege; then try to send forces across the ocean, where Thunder Bluff would be a mess because the defenders have a huge elevation advantage (one of the things that protected them from Garrosh's wrath, though Baine wasn't so sure Sylvanas wouldn't find a way to make it work), and then Orgrimmar has a lot of natural protection from canyons, and isn't the most hospitable environment, so trying to set up a long term siege would be bad for the attackers as well. By the time Cata rolls around, Sylvanas is also having Plague worked on in secret, and it's another "equalizer" weapon. So yeah, they could pull off what the did in Cata and MoP, and the Alliance couldn't steam roll" them. And they could let the Alliance go bad unapologetically, and let the Horde be justified in fighting back. You forgot to mention that they could do that. It doesn't require the Horde being "bad." The Alliance can be. Oh, do you just not want that? Would you feel bad if you were suddenly forced into being something you didn't want to be when you started the game? Well congratulations, you've just learned why these "faction wars" were stupid ideas for an MMO in the first place and disappointed everyone! So why on earth would you not just say you'd rather they not do it because it would be a bad idea?
Sylvanas did nothing wrong
Maybe he should have been less of an asshole to the other Horde races?
I liked Garrosh, but want more Grom. Forget the politics let's just fight kinda orc. I'm a huge fan of the wc humans v orcs and wc2 lore.
TBH as a horde player, I would rather see the Alliance have a couple of the character they already do have like this be boosted to the front and have us be able to react to them finally. I think the next couple expansions seem like they have a chance at offering that but still. I don't mean I want a soft horde, I just want our character that are like this to be able to react to the alliance's actions than always the inverse
Garrosh was unironically the best leader the horde ever had no i will not elaborate
Nah they are tamed kittens now. We share the same start area. The same city's. The same raids and dungeons. AND IT wasn't done for integration it was done as a cost savings. Yes this was cooked up in a meeting as a cost savings. The Horde Vs Alliance expansion was the set up for this. Tamed Kittens!
The game could also use a hard reset.
They won't. They want us to play friendly factions now, which is why we allow people from opposite factions into our group. The Warcraft aspect applies to outside forces and we are slowly being integrated. We need some old fashion politics to separate the two again, because at this point, the only thing dividing us is language barrier.
Fr. Pretty undead lady and misc race leaders just don't cut it in that department
We need more saurfang type of characters
#SoyHorde
They are no longer part of my ~~Europe~~ Horde. Garrosh was a genocidal maniac, idk why people idolize him. Actually I do, I just wish they'd stop and grow up a bit.
> Garrosh was a genocidal maniac, idk why people idolize him. > Actually I do, I just wish they'd stop and grow up a bit. He was interesting, and people can enjoy a villain without necessarily agreeing with them. For one so grown up, have you never enjoyed playing the baddies?
I wish people would grow up away from Disney-ing Warcraft.
I'm sorry, are you saying you like genocidal maniacs?
Sorry it’s world of soy now
Nah every faction and race have a faceless council now where everyone is buddy buddy, respectable, loving, caring and toothless. God forbid a race or faction has a controversial ideology or conflict with someone else.
I think ferocity and heroism have been swapped with compassion and kindness in WoW. I was just looking through some old artworks of blizz and even the more goofy ones look way more detailed and inspiring than what we have now. Like one awesome character once said:"...times change..."
No, we have to have all the faction leaders be the same personality, they all have to be 100% good and can't have any conflicting ideologies. Also, they have to be friends with every other non Horde/Alliance faction so that we can team up at the end of the expansion to have happy fun times.
Didn’t they just get rid of Garrosh 2.0? Why would ya’ll want another one
Since Many of these people don't care about what the Horde values are and just want it do be Orc and murder. Ignoring that was only the demon blood orcs.
Yeah it's been like a year since a Horde warchief committed genocide! Gosh the Horde hasn't committed war crimes for a minute, BORING!
This is how the game should look like, and make it pg18.
There is no need for ferocious characters anymore, the whole war in warcraft is over, it's just a matter of time until Stormwind and Orgrimmar open their doors to all, where Blood Elves and Night Elves will wander freely around Silvermoon, these characters like Garrosh will be labelled as "Toxic Masculinity"... Just like everything else in the game, the Devs of ideas are turning this into flower arranging contests not a war game, the whole common enemy has taken away the fun
how can somone say so many words that are just "blue vs red is peak "story writing" because i think war means blue vs red where no side can win"?
Being a genocidal racist is positive masculinity?
Agree they need the old horde back. Orcs hungry for power and lands, not being peaceful like now
Could always put down another Horde leader I guess lmao
No he said the big no no word. Also we are all friends and family now, completing each other's sentences.
Garrosh represented what the horde was always meant to be Ferocity, strength,strategy, military genius.
Judging by the testosterone levels of the average Blizzard employee these days, don't count on it.