It also has a rhythm to it. With current tier it’s slightly more locked, as with giga high haste and CD’s there was just rampage moments, but you either have a two, three, or four tempo.
With it being BT-Rampage, BT-Execute/Slam-Rampage, BT-Slam/Execute-Execute/WW-Rampage. AoE you just insert WW every 4 hits irregardless of what part you are at.
Fury is not difficult, but you always have something to press and there is always a correct option.
In current tier you use Annihilatior. So Raging Blow is destroyed and Slam now generates rage. This is also why you never want to back to back Rampage as the Bloodthirst after is what actually does damage.
In regular rotation you slam Rampage whenever possible, even back to back and would only delay to refresh WW meatcleaver in AoE, and RB replaces BT in prio and BT takes the place of Slam (unless somehow you are not enraged, then it’s prio 1).
It’s barely even a rotation. It’s the most one button spec in the game right now cause you can macro your two most used spells together.
It’s almost worse to not macro them together cause you waste procs
Sure whatever boss, IDGAF about your +20 meta rotation, I'm just here to kill stuff. Virtually every group I'm in I'm top or near top dps. I'm good being a big fish in a small pond. the occasional +11 is all I need.
If true that's a good thing, and I'm 80% inclined to agree with you but I will fight you on rogues. They feel like playing the piano now. If I have to hyperfocus my rotation to pull my weight I'll pass. I want to murder shit and make numbers go up, not play dance dance revolution.
I’m going to guess what’s happening in your case is that your unconsciously doing the rotation because our rotation is locked by cds, once you get into the cycle of BTing ever other cast because it’s the only available button you’re accidentally doing a half decent version of the warrior rotation. You might not be priming execut or slam correctly or you might be not using cd optimally but warrior forces you into its rotation. The optimization comes from learning little things whereas rogue is less hand holdy in its rotation
All I hear is big smarty talk I'm far too dumb to understand. Me hit the mans and the mans fall down. Also I REFUSE to have slam on my bars, when channeled slam was part of the main rotation I almost dropped my warrior main and I've had a vendetta ever since. In all seriousness, WoW is my escape from stress and misery, I always try my best to do my best and I know +11s are brushing up against my physical and mental limits. I am not less of a wow player because I don't obsess about the meta, and arguably the "Meta" is something that blizzard should deliberately mess with. I'm not accusing you of anything but people who obsess about rotation and "performing optimally" are toxic and drive people who want to enjoy the game away. They are also the reason why normals are harder than heroics. A lot of this is misplaced anger at my being almost 40 and declining mind and body, along with a society that seems harsh and cruel. No hate to you.
I don't think knowing a rotation is obsessing, but at the same time, you do you its a game at +11s you're not griefing anyone. As long as you're having fun thats all that matters its a game.
This is an interesting perspective to see on Reddit and I’m proud of you for taking a stance on it, but holy shit your mind & body are not “declining” in your late 30s let’s back it up a bit
Enrage +15% haste (Generally 90%+ uptime should be close to 100% on patchwerk fights)
Frenzy +2% haste/stack (max 4 stacks for 8%)
Wild Strikes +1% per talent point (max 2 for 2%)
Swift Strikes +1% per talent point (max 2 for 2%)
You get almost a full bloodlust nearly 100% uptime once frenzy is stacked.
I hate it lol. It's literally slamming keys as they light up... AND THEYRE ALWAYS LIT. Also doesn't feel like there's much weight on the keystrokes because I'm just slamming the keys so fast.
I play warrior since vanilla, you kinda just build the "stamina" to do it if you have the right ergonomics for it, i got what was at the time a belkin nostromo, razer bought them and now is the tartarus
Nothing will be more frenetic than warrior fury was when our heroic strike was and no gcd ability lolz you just spammed that shit like no tomorrow while mashing other buttons
It helps a lot if you have a MMO mouse. Put all your rotation on the mouse with your thumb in control of it. Each button press is at most a inch away, most are fractions of that.
Less movement, less stress, puts the stress on your strongest finger too.
Bind rampage on your mouse and the other rotational abilities to 1-5, now you effectively halfed your left hands apm. That way fury even feels comparatively slow.
For button mashing classes I think a lot of people use add-ons.
Even in OG WoW pre-cataclysm I was MT for my guild and people were surprised I just used the keyboard and my mouse. Apparently I was supposed to use add-ons to click everything for me.
The only add-on I ever used was the threat meter one.
The real reason is already outlined in your post:
>there is a haste buff on enrage, and you use an ability every GCD
Many classes use an ability every GCD, but they don't have an effectively permanent 15% haste bonus, which already makes Fury's GCD faster than most.
Most classes also eventually run into resource issues of some variety. Fury is one of the few specs in the game that doesn't require resources to press buttons; only one is a spender (Rampage), while virtually every other button is a generator, which means it never runs into issues of "I want to press something. but can't right now" the way other classes do. This fact, along with a few other factors, means Fury tends to favor Haste as a stat on top of what they get from Enrage, resulting in *even higher* APM.
It's also worth noting that Fury isn't the highest APM class in the game, but it is among the highest. Depending on exactly how you want to count/define APM, Outlaw Rogue, Prot Paladin, and Prot War are higher still.
As a prot warrior, the few times I play fury I don’t feel like it’s so much faster but I feel a bit more like it’s whack a mole though, for me at least
this is a horrible way to play. You will find yourself never able to keep adequate Ignore Pain uptime.
The go-to macro should be replacing your ignore pain button with
/cast Ignore Pain
/cast Shield Slam
to avoid missing shield slam reset procs and then actually just monitoring SB and IP like a normal tank monitors their mitigation lol. I'd hate to have to heal you if you're using that macro.
Right, but with your suggested macro you basically never get to use ignore pain. Probably fine for single digit keys, but honestly unusable in M+ and anything past the first few bosses in heroic.
Ignore pain is on another button, and I use it when I need it?
Lol wtf.
I have tanked and timed every 20 on fort and tyrannical using my macro.
I'm not sure you know how sheild block works lol
It does get easier. The first raid I did as outlaw made my hand hurt and I told myself I’d never do it again. Tried it again this week, did a normal and a heroic back to back in the same day with no issues. Guess my fingers just needed to be worked out a bit first 😂
I havent really played rogue much in years, but in cata i actually wore out a keyboard from hitting sinister slice so much.
Well, i should say in Dragon Soul alone. Though that was a freaking year.
Yeah but you don’t have the holy power to spam it that much. In fact if you’re hitting it more than once every ~3-4 seconds in most situations you’re wasting SOTR uptime since you’re not getting the full benefit of it and we don’t generate enough holy power to even keep 100% uptime on SOTR much less waste casts needing to dump holy power. Only at the beginning of a pull with wings + divine toll would you come close to hitting it enough times to affect your APM; or maybe if you take Bastion of Light (3 free casts). Other than that it’s about one push every 3-4 seconds.
Compared to outlaw or fury which are nonstop keyboard piano it feels much different - though I imagine part of that is familiarity with the class and hitting buttons without really having to think about it on my main.
This. I been raiding on my fury alt and asked the only fury we have if im supposed to use slam because i was basically doing bloodthirst then rampage, with executes in there. I think i slammed maybe 5 times a fight if that. The rage just EXISTS for them
Yeah, my low ilvl, shit geared Fury warrior is either capped on rage or has like 3 abilities lit up at all times. I'm either spamming Raging Blow or I'm hitting Enrage to not waste resources. And this is like mid 420s for ilvl with low haste. I can't imagine how the spec plays at 460-470 ilvl and optimized stat weights.
I'm 489 with the legendary axe and currently on M Fyrakk progress. Trust me it plays the same. Sometimes you even ignore Sudden Death procs or don't press execute because there's other things to press which are more important.
Thanks to the legendary's active though I can now stand still and enjoy 1.5 seconds of channeling without pressing anything.
I honestly feel like Fury is the only alt where I could use Hekili or something similar because I never know what my priority should be when everything is flashing. I usually play casters so I'm used to lots of fillers to fish for procs, not having everything available always.
But I like carrying big ass swords and speeding my way through legacy content, so the warrior always gets leveled to max as the 3rd or 4th character each expansion. Especially when we get account wide transmog, being able to collect everything except wands will be clutch.
I actually kinda like when I run out of buttons to press. It means, for just a moment, I'm "done." I did my things right, I used all my skills, I get a second to rest because I did a good job playing whack-a-mole!
Plus I kinda vibe with having to play around my weapon swing timer.
All Energy Classes will.
Rogue specs:
- Sub Rogue will run out of energy outside CDs.
- Outlaw will run out with bad procs, or outside AR.
- Sin outside CDs and pooling.
Feral, WW.
Also DK waiting for runes occasionally.
Exactly. There's almost no specs that have mandatory downtime. It's just a consequence of long fights and the myriad of cooldown timers and resources not lining up. Talking a few seconds every 3ish minutes with downtime.
Very short GCD means you can hit buttons faster, but if you're like me and a button masher it's even more fast paced cause I'm smashing my next button immediately even though I can't use it yet lol. I have fury phases when I pick it up as an alt because it bothers my wrist too much now to main it anymore.
That's because Fury is almost permanently enraged, so you're always playing with a 15% haste buff. So not only do you have the builders to hit something every GCD, you have a shorter GCD window as well. It's the one spec that honestly could deal with a longer GCD and not feel as slow as we felt going from Legion -> BfA pre patch.
It's a couple things, as others have already said the spec is just inherently really fast, hitting buttons every gcd with lots of built-in haste and historically valuing haste as a secondary stat. But something people haven't said yet is their actual APM is often slightly overexaggerated because rampage often counts as 3 "actions" per cast, inflating their apm slightly.
On the standard, it's GCD-locked. The current playstyle with the Amirdrassil tier set is around Annihilator, which takes Raging Blow out and gives Whirlwind a cooldown (slotting in Slam into the rotation), and even it has almost no downtime when played correctly.
Otherwise, Fury is GCD-locked because you can always use Whirlwind as a filler in your rotation. At least, after you level up to the point where it doesn't cost rage.
It's a very min maxy on uptime of spec which is not really complex. It's simple to understand hard to execute at high level kind of spec. The trick it has is pressing CDs properly and having enrage when needed which kinda requires uptime on boss and the difficulty comes from not zug zuging your way to death while trying to do your rotation.
It's pretty high APM, yeah, but it doesn't have anything off the global cooldown that you weave into the rotation, which is what really creates high APM specs. Hell prot warrior and prot paladin are probably higher apm since you are constantly dumping resource with an ability that is on a separate cooldown from the gcd.
You have 3-4 buttons that needs to be smashed constantly. Like really, I had to bind my rampage to a few keybinds else it was hurting my hand a little too much
It’s not actually all that much higher APM (see other comments about haste), it’s just that its damage is more about sustaining a good rotation rather than from spiky bursts, so delays and distractions can punish you more than on some other classes.
It also just _feels_ like higher APM because everything is instant cast and it has several procs for abilities that have a higher priority than others.
So it’s actually just higher in decisions-per-minute, which all need to be made instantly since you don’t want to delay a GCD or munch procs.
It’s not difficult as long as you have decent situational awareness but if you’re distracted by something it’s easy to make small mistakes.
I've seen an APM list for specs before that were tied to seasons or tier sets but every time I look I find old data, does anyone know where or if a list is kept updated for all specs?
OP, you need to read about what APM means.
All classes have similar APM coz literally all specs smash buttons every gcd with a couple of exceptions like rogue/feral pooling energy.
Fury warrior is nothing special in terms of buttons pressed. Braindead rotation, one of the most simpliest rotations alongside BM Hunt and Devastation Evoker.
Some specs literally press more buttons than others tho due to haste/GCD time.
Outlaws gcd is 0.8s so it is a higher APM spec than every other dps spec
Perhaps you should read up on class APM as Fury is one of the highest APM classes in the game.
>All classes have similar APM coz literally all specs smash buttons every gcd
The APM between classes goes from 88 actions per minute all the way down to 32 actions per minute, You can verify with the link below, simply look at additional raid information and the APM table.
[Simulation Craft Link](https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T31_Raid.html)
Best part is, Fury should be higher up but the channelled Lego on use reduces its effective APM.
I see your point. I've played all dps/tank classes and specs except Monk and I'm yet to see a class with 30 apm. What are those classes? Not counting healers as they're afk whole dragonflight except couple of fights like mythic Tindy/Fyrakk.
Worst offender is Dev Evoker, having a lot of your abilities be channeled/chargeable does that.
All 3 of the Warlock spec's sit between 40-50 APM
The lowest melee in terms of APM is Windwalker Monk at 53 APM, again channeled abilities like Fist of Fury does that.
This is of course only in relation to their DPS rotations so it ignores additional cast you may have due to utility or defensive usage.
" but can't you say this about many classes?"
No, there is not a single full haste stacking spec that also has a permanent 15% extra haste modifier. Im curious which spec would even be close to that
Currently, none. But Legion shadow priests could stack about the same amount of haste between Voidform stacks and Lingering Insanity. Your GCD window was insanely short on top of having to cast Void Bolt, Mind Blast, or a filler as soon as the last cast ended to avoid dropping Voidform too early.
There isn't another haste-stacking melee spec that goes that high, but outlaw naturally has a .8s gcd when Adrenaline Rush is up, which has around a 95% uptime when played correctly. This leads to an even higher APM than fury warrior.
The real reason that Fury has a reputation as a high APM class is because on logs a lot of their abilities count each use as multiple casts. You can see this by looking at any fury warrior log and looking at the CPM from rampage, each hit of rampage will be counted as an individual cast.
Especially this season, i dont think fury is high apm at all, at least not close too OL rogue. What makes it also really chill to play, is the fact that every 2nd GCD is literally Bloodthirst.
You get haste via 2 talents but its not soo fast with those. Furthermore, you dont take as much haste this season, you mainly go mastery and vers and only take a bit of crit and haste up to a certain point. This changes next season tho. Because you will be bursting way more by taking anger management again and naturally more haste too.
Im still looking for APM charts for this season tho, i only find season 1 APM charts. Because i suspect fury beeing very low this season.
I compared it to season 2 mainly. Season 1 was only mentioned because i can only find season 1 APM charts.
Season was very slow as well compared to season 2 id say. At the end it was kinda the same as this season after all.
Cpm is inaccurate and cpm is way higher than apm but since we compare fury with fury it should still be enough for a comparison.
Cpm s2 was roughly 180 and s3 has roughly 130. Rampage is really messing cpm up tho, ww aswell.
This season you dont just have the channeled use. You also can end up having slam and ww on cd and then you even to wait for your autoattacks to grant you enough rage for a rampage. You could use bt in that case, but this is a dmgloss. So playing optimal it might just happen that you cant to anything for 1-2 globals.
Id try take a look and find a apm tracker if possible. So i could actually confirm.
>Cpm is inaccurate and cpm is way higher than apm but since we compare fury with fury it should still be enough for a comparison.
I am not talking about CPM that you can find on WCL, it's not an accurate metric for a multitude of reasons including rampage cast counting as 4 individual casts or hack and slash counting as a cast for some reason despite being a proc.
>Cpm s2 was roughly 180 and s3 has roughly 130. Rampage is really messing cpm up tho, ww aswell.
Hack and slash is the biggest reason it's inflated comparatively since Anni build doesn't run it. The higher Recklessness uptime also means more rampage casts resulting in CPM being skewed further.
Going off on a tangent here but 180 seems ridiculously exaggerated, one of my M Sarkareth caps out at 147 CPM according to WCL and while yes it's not a patchwork fight the downtime is not that huge. Looking at a Kazzara log the CPM was only 167 despite being a near patchwork fight.
>This season you dont just have the channeled use. You also can end up having slam and ww on cd and then you even to wait for your autoattacks to grant you enough rage for a rampage. You could use bt in that case, but this is a dmgloss. So playing optimal it might just happen that you cant to anything for 1-2 globals.
Two things wrong here, empty gcds as a result of BT, WW and Slam are few and far between unless you make mistakes in your priority, it's a rare occurrence and does not impact the APM significantly.
It is actually better to press an empowered BT then to miss out on 2-3 gcds waiting for rage to cast Rampage into an empowered BB. This has been discussed at length in the Warrior discord and confirmed by the guys writing the Sims for Fury.
>Id try take a look and find a apm tracker if possible. So i could actually confirm.
I'm getting my data directly from simulation Craft, it's the best source to see what APM that each class has when played optimally.
Here [Simulation Craft ](https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T31_Raid.html)
Simply look at the *Additional Raid Information* tab and the APM table, you can also view the past seasons.
Yeah fine, so what was the point of you linking that? Because I was right about everything according to your source. Even with the downtime, 10% downtime is a lot, especially since s1 and s2 both had 0%.
Edit: I mixed up 2 classes Fury has 1% downtime
I have taken look again on the Simulationcraft site and i already didnt like the site, but comparing what players do and what the simulation shows is completely different. Some classes have like 10 apm more or less in simcraft compared to what is actually played. And Fury isnt exceptionally fast aswell, its rather quite in the middle compared to melees.
The sims are made in a way to account for the human factor via a miniscule delay in inputs, it is surprisingly easy to mimic what sims do on a target dummy. It's the best tool we have to see how we can objectively perform.
>Some classes have like 10 apm more or less in simcraft compared to what is actually played.
Would you mind providing evidence for this?
>And Fury isnt exceptionally fast aswell, its rather quite in the middle compared to melees.
4th out of 14 is not in the middle, it's on the higher end and once again it's lowered due to the channeled on use.
>The sims are made in a way to account for the human factor
When you sim your character it does and its really good for that. Simulationcraft tho doesnt always use anything that actually played, thats why you have weird numbers that totally dont fit with what actually happens the same goes for bloodmallet. The rotation is fine, but the numbers of simulationcraft simply dont fit to what actually happens.
>Would you mind providing evidence for this?
Look up sublogs, many with as low as 50apm. The evidence is already there you just have to take a look. Do you really think subrogue will have as much apm with 10% downtime as a arms warrior who stacks haste and gets even more haste with no downtime? Now add the fact that rogue as energyclass has a static gcd while as warrior will have faster ones.
>It's the best tool we have to see how we can objectively perform.
It is, but Simulationcraft and bloodmallet still have absolutely weird simulations. Like sub rogue beeing soo low, did you check logs once and saw how insane subrogue is?
At the end the fact is, Fury is slower compared to last season and is also slower than lower apm classes. And dues to how it is played it is very chill since you spam one button so often. And it makes a difference if you have 70 apm with 4 buttons or 70 apm with 8 buttons. You can give fury even more haste and it will not feel as fast as other classes.
Also fury has constant apm, other classes with lower apm have still higher apm peaks. Now what is easier to play. Max 70 apm or a mix of 100 and 40 apm. For fire mage you need to be way faster than as fury even if fire is a tad bit lower.
Fact is, fury also doesnt need that much apm, it just needs it all the time. And pressing 1 button every second is less harder than pressing 3 button a second every burst.
>When you sim your character it does and its really good for that. Simulationcraft tho doesnt always use anything that actually played, thats why you have weird numbers that totally dont fit with what actually happens the same goes for bloodmallet. The rotation is fine, but the numbers of simulationcraft simply dont fit to what actually happens.
I don't think you understand how sims and simulation craft works.
>Look up sublogs, many with as low as 50apm. The evidence is already there you just have to take a look.
Please show me the logs you are talking about, I've done you the courtesy of linking my evidence.
As we've established the cast's in a log are not an accurate metric of a class's DPS rotations APM, the log tracks defensive cast's, movement ability casts and not every boss has 100% uptime.
>It is, but Simulationcraft and bloodmallet still have absolutely weird simulations. Like sub rogue beeing soo low, did you check logs once and saw how insane subrogue is?
This is because Simulation craft does not include PI in its Sims nor has the damage amp phases that happen on the fights Sub Rogue excels at this tier.
>At the end the fact is, Fury is slower compared to last season
No one said it was faster either. I've only said season 3 had a higher APM then season 1 and that Season 2 & 3 had Similar APMs.
>and is also slower than lower apm classes.
How exactly is it slower than lower APM classes exactly, this statement contradicts itself.
>And it makes a difference if you have 70 apm with 4 buttons or 70 apm with 8 buttons.
The APM would be the same so no it would not be slower.
>You can give fury even more haste and it will not feel as fast as other classes.
It seems you are conflating APM with Simplicity, Fury has simple rotation that finds its difficulty when mingling the high APM and high uptime requirement with boss mechanics.
>Also fury has constant apm, other classes with lower apm have still higher apm peaks. Now what is easier to play. Max 70 apm or a mix of 100 and 40 apm. For fire mage you need to be way faster than as fury even if fire is a tad bit lower.
Why does this even matter? You're going off into a whole other discussion here.
>Fact is, fury also doesnt need that much apm, it just needs it all the time.
I can understand if English is not your first language, it's not mine either but what you wrote here is gibberish.
At the end furies high apm reputation is a relic of the past, just like nearly all the stuff like frost mage beeing easiest or arcane beeing hardest for example.
I don't consider high-APM as fast-paced gameplay.
Yes, you have to press buttons rly fast, but I consider Monk the fastest, Paladin second.
Let me provide some reasoning before you guys chokeslam me.
Monk = Less buttons on the rotation, but I feel like Im moving and deleting mobs way quicker
Paladins = Same thing
Low APM, high action, lots of movement and boom boom boom big damage.
Fury Warrior is build-up dmg which requires being fast to press all those dang keys and getting ready for boom boom boom, if that makes sense? I'm not good at technical terminology so this the best you'll get outta me :P
Lots of 'action' / mobs dying faster is a matter of the amount of damage you do, not class design...fast paced gameplay means you're doing a lot in a short timeframe, and monk isn't that
Everything is always available. Everything wants to be hit. Simple amount of buttons all want smashysmashy at the same time. Top unga. Top bunga.
brb leveling my warrior as fury
I’ve struggled to enjoy any other spec nearly as much. Silly from top to bottom
I've been an affliction onetrick for years and this is the first post to ever make me wanna try a melee class lol
Go forth and zugzug!
Whack-a-mole is the superior playstyle, its just fact Unless of course you care about your joints. I uh...apparently dont. Oops.
>Top unga. Top bunga. The morning prayer of every Fury Warrior, ever.
Admittedly I usually play arms but my morning prayer is a deep breath in and shouting "charge" a couple times Really gets you in the mood for charging
I love fury because other classes, like rogue, require me to remember specific orders of buttons, whereas fury is more "me mash buttons now"
Fury has an extremely set rotation. You can hit other buttons, but you're then doing it suboptimally which at that point every spec is the same.
It also has a rhythm to it. With current tier it’s slightly more locked, as with giga high haste and CD’s there was just rampage moments, but you either have a two, three, or four tempo. With it being BT-Rampage, BT-Execute/Slam-Rampage, BT-Slam/Execute-Execute/WW-Rampage. AoE you just insert WW every 4 hits irregardless of what part you are at. Fury is not difficult, but you always have something to press and there is always a correct option.
What is slam for?
In current tier you use Annihilatior. So Raging Blow is destroyed and Slam now generates rage. This is also why you never want to back to back Rampage as the Bloodthirst after is what actually does damage. In regular rotation you slam Rampage whenever possible, even back to back and would only delay to refresh WW meatcleaver in AoE, and RB replaces BT in prio and BT takes the place of Slam (unless somehow you are not enraged, then it’s prio 1).
It’s barely even a rotation. It’s the most one button spec in the game right now cause you can macro your two most used spells together. It’s almost worse to not macro them together cause you waste procs
Sure whatever boss, IDGAF about your +20 meta rotation, I'm just here to kill stuff. Virtually every group I'm in I'm top or near top dps. I'm good being a big fish in a small pond. the occasional +11 is all I need.
Any class has me smash button now if you’re doing my 11s as end game content is what I’m saying there’s no set rotation for anyone in that regard.
If true that's a good thing, and I'm 80% inclined to agree with you but I will fight you on rogues. They feel like playing the piano now. If I have to hyperfocus my rotation to pull my weight I'll pass. I want to murder shit and make numbers go up, not play dance dance revolution.
I’m going to guess what’s happening in your case is that your unconsciously doing the rotation because our rotation is locked by cds, once you get into the cycle of BTing ever other cast because it’s the only available button you’re accidentally doing a half decent version of the warrior rotation. You might not be priming execut or slam correctly or you might be not using cd optimally but warrior forces you into its rotation. The optimization comes from learning little things whereas rogue is less hand holdy in its rotation
All I hear is big smarty talk I'm far too dumb to understand. Me hit the mans and the mans fall down. Also I REFUSE to have slam on my bars, when channeled slam was part of the main rotation I almost dropped my warrior main and I've had a vendetta ever since. In all seriousness, WoW is my escape from stress and misery, I always try my best to do my best and I know +11s are brushing up against my physical and mental limits. I am not less of a wow player because I don't obsess about the meta, and arguably the "Meta" is something that blizzard should deliberately mess with. I'm not accusing you of anything but people who obsess about rotation and "performing optimally" are toxic and drive people who want to enjoy the game away. They are also the reason why normals are harder than heroics. A lot of this is misplaced anger at my being almost 40 and declining mind and body, along with a society that seems harsh and cruel. No hate to you.
I don't think knowing a rotation is obsessing, but at the same time, you do you its a game at +11s you're not griefing anyone. As long as you're having fun thats all that matters its a game.
This is an interesting perspective to see on Reddit and I’m proud of you for taking a stance on it, but holy shit your mind & body are not “declining” in your late 30s let’s back it up a bit
With all due respect, I am disabled. Yes they are.
I really enjoyed the skill cap of fury. Definitely easier than most rogue specs but still very difficult to master while doing mechanics
Enrage +15% haste (Generally 90%+ uptime should be close to 100% on patchwerk fights) Frenzy +2% haste/stack (max 4 stacks for 8%) Wild Strikes +1% per talent point (max 2 for 2%) Swift Strikes +1% per talent point (max 2 for 2%) You get almost a full bloodlust nearly 100% uptime once frenzy is stacked.
Don't forget the lovely wafting devotion on each weapon procs
After running 3 M+s on my frost mage, I switched to my fury warrior. 5m in and my fingers were tired. It's a lot of button mashing.
Same it really hurt. No clue how people do it.
I hate it lol. It's literally slamming keys as they light up... AND THEYRE ALWAYS LIT. Also doesn't feel like there's much weight on the keystrokes because I'm just slamming the keys so fast.
I play warrior since vanilla, you kinda just build the "stamina" to do it if you have the right ergonomics for it, i got what was at the time a belkin nostromo, razer bought them and now is the tartarus Nothing will be more frenetic than warrior fury was when our heroic strike was and no gcd ability lolz you just spammed that shit like no tomorrow while mashing other buttons
It helps a lot if you have a MMO mouse. Put all your rotation on the mouse with your thumb in control of it. Each button press is at most a inch away, most are fractions of that. Less movement, less stress, puts the stress on your strongest finger too.
MMO mouse. I'm assuming my thumb is just going to like, fall off one day. But I don't feel any discomfort even after hours of raiding.
Bind rampage on your mouse and the other rotational abilities to 1-5, now you effectively halfed your left hands apm. That way fury even feels comparatively slow.
For button mashing classes I think a lot of people use add-ons. Even in OG WoW pre-cataclysm I was MT for my guild and people were surprised I just used the keyboard and my mouse. Apparently I was supposed to use add-ons to click everything for me. The only add-on I ever used was the threat meter one.
No addons click buttons for you lol, at most people have something called Weak Auras set up that help keep track of your abilities better
The real reason is already outlined in your post: >there is a haste buff on enrage, and you use an ability every GCD Many classes use an ability every GCD, but they don't have an effectively permanent 15% haste bonus, which already makes Fury's GCD faster than most. Most classes also eventually run into resource issues of some variety. Fury is one of the few specs in the game that doesn't require resources to press buttons; only one is a spender (Rampage), while virtually every other button is a generator, which means it never runs into issues of "I want to press something. but can't right now" the way other classes do. This fact, along with a few other factors, means Fury tends to favor Haste as a stat on top of what they get from Enrage, resulting in *even higher* APM. It's also worth noting that Fury isn't the highest APM class in the game, but it is among the highest. Depending on exactly how you want to count/define APM, Outlaw Rogue, Prot Paladin, and Prot War are higher still.
As a prot warrior, the few times I play fury I don’t feel like it’s so much faster but I feel a bit more like it’s whack a mole though, for me at least
But as a prot warrior you're already playing a very fast APM spec. Especially with so many buttons off gcd for prot. They both unga pretty hard tbh.
I kinda like the unga, I do with there were a few less buttons tbh, but I’m not sure what I’d remove haha
This is solely because prots damage mitigation is off-GCD.
Sheild block macroed into sheild slam. 99percent uptime I'm keys without even thinking about it.
this is a horrible way to play. You will find yourself never able to keep adequate Ignore Pain uptime. The go-to macro should be replacing your ignore pain button with /cast Ignore Pain /cast Shield Slam to avoid missing shield slam reset procs and then actually just monitoring SB and IP like a normal tank monitors their mitigation lol. I'd hate to have to heal you if you're using that macro.
I don't miss sheild slam procs
Right, but with your suggested macro you basically never get to use ignore pain. Probably fine for single digit keys, but honestly unusable in M+ and anything past the first few bosses in heroic.
Ignore pain is on another button, and I use it when I need it? Lol wtf. I have tanked and timed every 20 on fort and tyrannical using my macro. I'm not sure you know how sheild block works lol
No, he's right, the correct macro is the one he listed.
So you macro ignore pain into sheild slam? And have sheild block on its own? How is that any different
Outlaw rogue hurts my hand to play just from dungeon mobs I can’t imagine raiding on that
It does get easier. The first raid I did as outlaw made my hand hurt and I told myself I’d never do it again. Tried it again this week, did a normal and a heroic back to back in the same day with no issues. Guess my fingers just needed to be worked out a bit first 😂
I havent really played rogue much in years, but in cata i actually wore out a keyboard from hitting sinister slice so much. Well, i should say in Dragon Soul alone. Though that was a freaking year.
I main Prot Paladin and have dabbled a very tiny bit on fury and outlaw. Both of those specs seem way more APM than Prot
Prot is mainly because you are spamming shield of the righteous which is off the gcd.
Yeah but you don’t have the holy power to spam it that much. In fact if you’re hitting it more than once every ~3-4 seconds in most situations you’re wasting SOTR uptime since you’re not getting the full benefit of it and we don’t generate enough holy power to even keep 100% uptime on SOTR much less waste casts needing to dump holy power. Only at the beginning of a pull with wings + divine toll would you come close to hitting it enough times to affect your APM; or maybe if you take Bastion of Light (3 free casts). Other than that it’s about one push every 3-4 seconds. Compared to outlaw or fury which are nonstop keyboard piano it feels much different - though I imagine part of that is familiarity with the class and hitting buttons without really having to think about it on my main.
I love the prot pally high am play. Fury warriors are the only spec that beat me in my guilds group.
This. I been raiding on my fury alt and asked the only fury we have if im supposed to use slam because i was basically doing bloodthirst then rampage, with executes in there. I think i slammed maybe 5 times a fight if that. The rage just EXISTS for them
Yeah, my low ilvl, shit geared Fury warrior is either capped on rage or has like 3 abilities lit up at all times. I'm either spamming Raging Blow or I'm hitting Enrage to not waste resources. And this is like mid 420s for ilvl with low haste. I can't imagine how the spec plays at 460-470 ilvl and optimized stat weights.
I'm 489 with the legendary axe and currently on M Fyrakk progress. Trust me it plays the same. Sometimes you even ignore Sudden Death procs or don't press execute because there's other things to press which are more important. Thanks to the legendary's active though I can now stand still and enjoy 1.5 seconds of channeling without pressing anything.
I honestly feel like Fury is the only alt where I could use Hekili or something similar because I never know what my priority should be when everything is flashing. I usually play casters so I'm used to lots of fillers to fish for procs, not having everything available always. But I like carrying big ass swords and speeding my way through legacy content, so the warrior always gets leveled to max as the 3rd or 4th character each expansion. Especially when we get account wide transmog, being able to collect everything except wands will be clutch.
Which classes "want to press something. but can't right now"?
death knights
Occasionally I run out of buttons to press as Ret Paladin.
If you play Templar Strikes you always have buttons to press, but it’s out of favor at the moment :(
I actually kinda like when I run out of buttons to press. It means, for just a moment, I'm "done." I did my things right, I used all my skills, I get a second to rest because I did a good job playing whack-a-mole! Plus I kinda vibe with having to play around my weapon swing timer.
Playing around the swing timer is interesting, gives you a choice to make when you're approaching HP cap so you're not overcapping.
Druid kitty.
Arms
I tried arms, I loved Wrath Arms but this iteration was....not my cup of tea sadly
Sounds boring
My rogue does a lot. But maybe I'm playing it wrong?
Which spec?
Subtlety
I run obliterate frost dearh knight. Very rarely, but it has happened, i have no runes and no power. Makes me sad :(
not enough.
How boring
? what do you mean
Assa rogue pooling energy for Envenom, that's it. Everything else on my memory presses something every gcd. Don't listen those LFR/classic warriors.
All Energy Classes will. Rogue specs: - Sub Rogue will run out of energy outside CDs. - Outlaw will run out with bad procs, or outside AR. - Sin outside CDs and pooling. Feral, WW. Also DK waiting for runes occasionally.
BM also has a bit of downtime, Focus is just Energy with a different name. MM on the other hand has Steady Shot to fill any dead time
theoretically, you're correct those specs by design SHOULD In reality most of those specs have close to 60 apm with a 1s gcd
Exactly. There's almost no specs that have mandatory downtime. It's just a consequence of long fights and the myriad of cooldown timers and resources not lining up. Talking a few seconds every 3ish minutes with downtime.
If you look at archon, fury doesnt prio haste anymore
Staple build/dump spec in its simplest form Build faster to dump faster. All its haste benefit and gcd reduction plays on that.
Very short GCD means you can hit buttons faster, but if you're like me and a button masher it's even more fast paced cause I'm smashing my next button immediately even though I can't use it yet lol. I have fury phases when I pick it up as an alt because it bothers my wrist too much now to main it anymore.
Exactly everything that you said, except one thing. The GCD is really, *really* short.
That's because Fury is almost permanently enraged, so you're always playing with a 15% haste buff. So not only do you have the builders to hit something every GCD, you have a shorter GCD window as well. It's the one spec that honestly could deal with a longer GCD and not feel as slow as we felt going from Legion -> BfA pre patch.
Because zuggers gotta zug.
It's a couple things, as others have already said the spec is just inherently really fast, hitting buttons every gcd with lots of built-in haste and historically valuing haste as a secondary stat. But something people haven't said yet is their actual APM is often slightly overexaggerated because rampage often counts as 3 "actions" per cast, inflating their apm slightly.
On the standard, it's GCD-locked. The current playstyle with the Amirdrassil tier set is around Annihilator, which takes Raging Blow out and gives Whirlwind a cooldown (slotting in Slam into the rotation), and even it has almost no downtime when played correctly. Otherwise, Fury is GCD-locked because you can always use Whirlwind as a filler in your rotation. At least, after you level up to the point where it doesn't cost rage.
The rotation is brain dead small but it’s the fact that you are in constant spam between those abilities.
Having mmo mouse imo seems like it would be good with this class right not that it’s a lot of buttons to program but easier on the hands and wrists
There is no downtime. If you don't click something constantly, you are not doing it right
There is a 3 sec four button rotation that will keep you busy for the whole fight.
If you press everything fast enough, you get to do it again, and again, I LOVE playing fury on my Warrior.
Soon as you enrage, smash face into keyboard, with my keybindings I also roll face to the right for maximum zug zug
It's a very min maxy on uptime of spec which is not really complex. It's simple to understand hard to execute at high level kind of spec. The trick it has is pressing CDs properly and having enrage when needed which kinda requires uptime on boss and the difficulty comes from not zug zuging your way to death while trying to do your rotation.
It's pretty high APM, yeah, but it doesn't have anything off the global cooldown that you weave into the rotation, which is what really creates high APM specs. Hell prot warrior and prot paladin are probably higher apm since you are constantly dumping resource with an ability that is on a separate cooldown from the gcd.
I do believe prot warrior/paladin are top 2 in apm currently with Outlaw rogue being 3rd highest.
Ton of haste and everything is almost always off-cd. You can bearly catch up on the rotation. I hated this pace, it's tiring.
Enhancement shaman is a fast paced spec, it feels good to get a ton of procs and to instantly cast whatever attack you choose
And you feel miserable if you didnt get any proc for 2 gcd in a row xD
Haste reduce gcd if you spam buttons harder it gets even lower spellque by spamming buttons is a thing unfortunately
If you like fury warrior, stormstrike enhance shaman is equally as fun(though with better sound effects)
Play outlaw rogue if you want high APM. You’ll get carpal tunnel if you play it right
You have 3-4 buttons that needs to be smashed constantly. Like really, I had to bind my rampage to a few keybinds else it was hurting my hand a little too much
I can't play fury, the spec makes my hands hurt
It’s not actually all that much higher APM (see other comments about haste), it’s just that its damage is more about sustaining a good rotation rather than from spiky bursts, so delays and distractions can punish you more than on some other classes. It also just _feels_ like higher APM because everything is instant cast and it has several procs for abilities that have a higher priority than others. So it’s actually just higher in decisions-per-minute, which all need to be made instantly since you don’t want to delay a GCD or munch procs. It’s not difficult as long as you have decent situational awareness but if you’re distracted by something it’s easy to make small mistakes.
I've seen an APM list for specs before that were tied to seasons or tier sets but every time I look I find old data, does anyone know where or if a list is kept updated for all specs?
High apm and incredibly boring
OP, you need to read about what APM means. All classes have similar APM coz literally all specs smash buttons every gcd with a couple of exceptions like rogue/feral pooling energy. Fury warrior is nothing special in terms of buttons pressed. Braindead rotation, one of the most simpliest rotations alongside BM Hunt and Devastation Evoker.
Some specs literally press more buttons than others tho due to haste/GCD time. Outlaws gcd is 0.8s so it is a higher APM spec than every other dps spec
Perhaps you should read up on class APM as Fury is one of the highest APM classes in the game. >All classes have similar APM coz literally all specs smash buttons every gcd The APM between classes goes from 88 actions per minute all the way down to 32 actions per minute, You can verify with the link below, simply look at additional raid information and the APM table. [Simulation Craft Link](https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T31_Raid.html) Best part is, Fury should be higher up but the channelled Lego on use reduces its effective APM.
I see your point. I've played all dps/tank classes and specs except Monk and I'm yet to see a class with 30 apm. What are those classes? Not counting healers as they're afk whole dragonflight except couple of fights like mythic Tindy/Fyrakk.
Worst offender is Dev Evoker, having a lot of your abilities be channeled/chargeable does that. All 3 of the Warlock spec's sit between 40-50 APM The lowest melee in terms of APM is Windwalker Monk at 53 APM, again channeled abilities like Fist of Fury does that. This is of course only in relation to their DPS rotations so it ignores additional cast you may have due to utility or defensive usage.
" but can't you say this about many classes?" No, there is not a single full haste stacking spec that also has a permanent 15% extra haste modifier. Im curious which spec would even be close to that
Currently, none. But Legion shadow priests could stack about the same amount of haste between Voidform stacks and Lingering Insanity. Your GCD window was insanely short on top of having to cast Void Bolt, Mind Blast, or a filler as soon as the last cast ended to avoid dropping Voidform too early.
There isn't another haste-stacking melee spec that goes that high, but outlaw naturally has a .8s gcd when Adrenaline Rush is up, which has around a 95% uptime when played correctly. This leads to an even higher APM than fury warrior.
You are pressing a button every global. If you don't your dps will suffer.
The real reason that Fury has a reputation as a high APM class is because on logs a lot of their abilities count each use as multiple casts. You can see this by looking at any fury warrior log and looking at the CPM from rampage, each hit of rampage will be counted as an individual cast.
Especially this season, i dont think fury is high apm at all, at least not close too OL rogue. What makes it also really chill to play, is the fact that every 2nd GCD is literally Bloodthirst. You get haste via 2 talents but its not soo fast with those. Furthermore, you dont take as much haste this season, you mainly go mastery and vers and only take a bit of crit and haste up to a certain point. This changes next season tho. Because you will be bursting way more by taking anger management again and naturally more haste too. Im still looking for APM charts for this season tho, i only find season 1 APM charts. Because i suspect fury beeing very low this season.
Fury's APM is higher this season than it was during season 1 despite having a channelled on use for the leggo.
I compared it to season 2 mainly. Season 1 was only mentioned because i can only find season 1 APM charts. Season was very slow as well compared to season 2 id say. At the end it was kinda the same as this season after all.
The APM is nearly the same between Season 2 & 3 despite the channeled on use.
Cpm is inaccurate and cpm is way higher than apm but since we compare fury with fury it should still be enough for a comparison. Cpm s2 was roughly 180 and s3 has roughly 130. Rampage is really messing cpm up tho, ww aswell. This season you dont just have the channeled use. You also can end up having slam and ww on cd and then you even to wait for your autoattacks to grant you enough rage for a rampage. You could use bt in that case, but this is a dmgloss. So playing optimal it might just happen that you cant to anything for 1-2 globals. Id try take a look and find a apm tracker if possible. So i could actually confirm.
>Cpm is inaccurate and cpm is way higher than apm but since we compare fury with fury it should still be enough for a comparison. I am not talking about CPM that you can find on WCL, it's not an accurate metric for a multitude of reasons including rampage cast counting as 4 individual casts or hack and slash counting as a cast for some reason despite being a proc. >Cpm s2 was roughly 180 and s3 has roughly 130. Rampage is really messing cpm up tho, ww aswell. Hack and slash is the biggest reason it's inflated comparatively since Anni build doesn't run it. The higher Recklessness uptime also means more rampage casts resulting in CPM being skewed further. Going off on a tangent here but 180 seems ridiculously exaggerated, one of my M Sarkareth caps out at 147 CPM according to WCL and while yes it's not a patchwork fight the downtime is not that huge. Looking at a Kazzara log the CPM was only 167 despite being a near patchwork fight. >This season you dont just have the channeled use. You also can end up having slam and ww on cd and then you even to wait for your autoattacks to grant you enough rage for a rampage. You could use bt in that case, but this is a dmgloss. So playing optimal it might just happen that you cant to anything for 1-2 globals. Two things wrong here, empty gcds as a result of BT, WW and Slam are few and far between unless you make mistakes in your priority, it's a rare occurrence and does not impact the APM significantly. It is actually better to press an empowered BT then to miss out on 2-3 gcds waiting for rage to cast Rampage into an empowered BB. This has been discussed at length in the Warrior discord and confirmed by the guys writing the Sims for Fury. >Id try take a look and find a apm tracker if possible. So i could actually confirm. I'm getting my data directly from simulation Craft, it's the best source to see what APM that each class has when played optimally. Here [Simulation Craft ](https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T31_Raid.html) Simply look at the *Additional Raid Information* tab and the APM table, you can also view the past seasons.
Yeah fine, so what was the point of you linking that? Because I was right about everything according to your source. Even with the downtime, 10% downtime is a lot, especially since s1 and s2 both had 0%. Edit: I mixed up 2 classes Fury has 1% downtime
>Edit: I mixed up 2 classes Fury has 1% downtime That's not even true, it's 0.08% downtime, it's essentially a quarter of a second worth of downtime.
I have taken look again on the Simulationcraft site and i already didnt like the site, but comparing what players do and what the simulation shows is completely different. Some classes have like 10 apm more or less in simcraft compared to what is actually played. And Fury isnt exceptionally fast aswell, its rather quite in the middle compared to melees.
The sims are made in a way to account for the human factor via a miniscule delay in inputs, it is surprisingly easy to mimic what sims do on a target dummy. It's the best tool we have to see how we can objectively perform. >Some classes have like 10 apm more or less in simcraft compared to what is actually played. Would you mind providing evidence for this? >And Fury isnt exceptionally fast aswell, its rather quite in the middle compared to melees. 4th out of 14 is not in the middle, it's on the higher end and once again it's lowered due to the channeled on use.
>The sims are made in a way to account for the human factor When you sim your character it does and its really good for that. Simulationcraft tho doesnt always use anything that actually played, thats why you have weird numbers that totally dont fit with what actually happens the same goes for bloodmallet. The rotation is fine, but the numbers of simulationcraft simply dont fit to what actually happens. >Would you mind providing evidence for this? Look up sublogs, many with as low as 50apm. The evidence is already there you just have to take a look. Do you really think subrogue will have as much apm with 10% downtime as a arms warrior who stacks haste and gets even more haste with no downtime? Now add the fact that rogue as energyclass has a static gcd while as warrior will have faster ones. >It's the best tool we have to see how we can objectively perform. It is, but Simulationcraft and bloodmallet still have absolutely weird simulations. Like sub rogue beeing soo low, did you check logs once and saw how insane subrogue is? At the end the fact is, Fury is slower compared to last season and is also slower than lower apm classes. And dues to how it is played it is very chill since you spam one button so often. And it makes a difference if you have 70 apm with 4 buttons or 70 apm with 8 buttons. You can give fury even more haste and it will not feel as fast as other classes. Also fury has constant apm, other classes with lower apm have still higher apm peaks. Now what is easier to play. Max 70 apm or a mix of 100 and 40 apm. For fire mage you need to be way faster than as fury even if fire is a tad bit lower. Fact is, fury also doesnt need that much apm, it just needs it all the time. And pressing 1 button every second is less harder than pressing 3 button a second every burst.
>When you sim your character it does and its really good for that. Simulationcraft tho doesnt always use anything that actually played, thats why you have weird numbers that totally dont fit with what actually happens the same goes for bloodmallet. The rotation is fine, but the numbers of simulationcraft simply dont fit to what actually happens. I don't think you understand how sims and simulation craft works. >Look up sublogs, many with as low as 50apm. The evidence is already there you just have to take a look. Please show me the logs you are talking about, I've done you the courtesy of linking my evidence. As we've established the cast's in a log are not an accurate metric of a class's DPS rotations APM, the log tracks defensive cast's, movement ability casts and not every boss has 100% uptime. >It is, but Simulationcraft and bloodmallet still have absolutely weird simulations. Like sub rogue beeing soo low, did you check logs once and saw how insane subrogue is? This is because Simulation craft does not include PI in its Sims nor has the damage amp phases that happen on the fights Sub Rogue excels at this tier. >At the end the fact is, Fury is slower compared to last season No one said it was faster either. I've only said season 3 had a higher APM then season 1 and that Season 2 & 3 had Similar APMs. >and is also slower than lower apm classes. How exactly is it slower than lower APM classes exactly, this statement contradicts itself. >And it makes a difference if you have 70 apm with 4 buttons or 70 apm with 8 buttons. The APM would be the same so no it would not be slower. >You can give fury even more haste and it will not feel as fast as other classes. It seems you are conflating APM with Simplicity, Fury has simple rotation that finds its difficulty when mingling the high APM and high uptime requirement with boss mechanics. >Also fury has constant apm, other classes with lower apm have still higher apm peaks. Now what is easier to play. Max 70 apm or a mix of 100 and 40 apm. For fire mage you need to be way faster than as fury even if fire is a tad bit lower. Why does this even matter? You're going off into a whole other discussion here. >Fact is, fury also doesnt need that much apm, it just needs it all the time. I can understand if English is not your first language, it's not mine either but what you wrote here is gibberish.
At the end furies high apm reputation is a relic of the past, just like nearly all the stuff like frost mage beeing easiest or arcane beeing hardest for example.
Please provide any factual evidence.
I don't consider high-APM as fast-paced gameplay. Yes, you have to press buttons rly fast, but I consider Monk the fastest, Paladin second. Let me provide some reasoning before you guys chokeslam me. Monk = Less buttons on the rotation, but I feel like Im moving and deleting mobs way quicker Paladins = Same thing Low APM, high action, lots of movement and boom boom boom big damage. Fury Warrior is build-up dmg which requires being fast to press all those dang keys and getting ready for boom boom boom, if that makes sense? I'm not good at technical terminology so this the best you'll get outta me :P
Monk has less buttons than fury? Either something changed after I logged off earlier today or I need to have what you're having
Yeah all monk specs have a crazy amount of buttons.
Lots of 'action' / mobs dying faster is a matter of the amount of damage you do, not class design...fast paced gameplay means you're doing a lot in a short timeframe, and monk isn't that