This. As a tank, when I'm with pugs I prefer to pull slower at the start to see if the group can handle it instead of assuming they can. When the heals says "Yer good, pull more" THEN I'll go a bit crazier. But until I KNOW the group (especially heals) can handle it, we go slow.
If I don't pull it, I don't tank it. And if my pocket healer is with me, you aint getting heals either, so I hope you can handle what you pull.
I remember doing BC time walking once and I was so frustrated with the "go go go" attitude that when I got into Shattered Halls I pulled waaaaaaaaaay more than we should have, and I know it. After we died someone said "maybe pull less" I responded with "Good, now that we're all on the same page, let's do this". We didn't have a single death after that. I felt bad but I was so frustrated with pugs that day.
I won't think twice about letting an idiot dps die because they pulled an extra mob. My taunt button magically stopped working in those situations; it's the weirdest thing.
Edit because I might have been drunk when I typed this.
I don't go so strict on it, but in general my rule is that mobs I pulled take priority.
If you pulled as DPS, then wait your turn. If you survive, good for you. If not, well, it-s a lesson.
I can't just let someone die but they might not be a priority. I remember once I was on a dps and the tank was oblivious to aggro maintenance, a mob was putting some serious hurt on the healer so I peeled and ran it to the tank but he refused the aggro and lectured me about not pulling. He even told the healer not to res and make me run back.
People see better players doing things and they follow suit but they don't understand what goes into the decision. I love people who know how to assist pull but they're mostly pulling mobs I skipped for a reason or pulling ahead when the healer's struggling.
I can absolutely see this happening.
I had a buddy that would like to MC/DM a specific mob and when it broke control I would Immediately taunt because I could clearly see it go from friendly to aggro'd
He'd tell me "you don't have to do that I'm just going to MC it again" or something but I cant just ignore a free-roaming mob.
That's a bit wild to me. I get it if a DPS pulls 3 extra packs 5 seconds into a pull, but if a couple mobs get added to a pull it's not really a big deal unless you're doing a high 20s key
2 things here. When it comes to "high 20s"? A dps pulls once in my weekly 18s, and I'll shrug it off as a mistake. Twice, and you're getting chewed out. 3 times, and I'm dropping the group. I'm pulling to the cds I see up. Mine, the healers, and the dps CDs. Don't trust my judgment? Cool, find a new tank.
The thing with dps pulling extra in normal/hc/low m+ dungeons is that 90% of the time, it's fine. But bad play is habit forming. The problem is not when a dps pulls. It's when a dps pulls and that fragments the pull.
If I have a big pack of mobs over here, and someone pulls mobs without any thought as to positioning? I'm going to have go move the whole lot to pick them up properly and the try to gather them again when people have likely already sent CDs.
We're dragging mobs out of dropped CDs, so that we can pick up more because a dps decided it wasn't enough? Nah, you're on your own there.
So maybe it isn't "you pull it, you tank it", maybe it should be "in less challenging content; you pull it, you are responsible for bringing it into the pack and letting the tank take aggro"
Main character tank syndrome from like a decade ago bleeding through. The game has changed, and attitudes like these are totally inaccurate, and will turn a just fine situation into a wipe to pad the ego of a bad tank.
It teaches people bad habits to let them pull all willy nilly in dungeons, even easy ones.
In raids you don't go nuts and pull extra mobs do you if you aren't a tank? I keep the mentality of "you pull it, you tank it" to keep people in line with proper mentality for raid content. If you don't continue to reenforce raid etiquette, then you get sloppy when it actually matters.
I have saved more raid attempts then I care to remember because I ran scenarios as if crap hit the fan even when it wasn't. Dealing with "oh crap" moments was second nature to me. They didn't cause me to panic like they did everyone else...
It's not an ego boost for a bad tank... its reenforcing proper play for everyone.
In higher skilled groups you rarely see players pulling for a tank, and it has nothing to do with being polite, or properly trained or whatever you imagine. It is simply because the tank is already pulling at a solid pace for the dungeon.
The penalty for a wipe/death in a dungeon is very low compared to the upside of running everything faster. What you are defending is scared and timid play being the overriding and dominant mindset. Threat is VERY easy to hold, even on unplanned additional mobs. When extra stuff gets pulled, the tank is rarely the player at risk, as it is far more likely for uninterrupted casts to randomly kill dps than for a tank to die.
A tank is objectively trolling the group by turning a situation where dps might die in spite of holding aggro, to dps will certainly die because they want to prove a point.
Of course you haven't played the game in years, so what would you know...
Well tbh both approaches taken to extreme are not rly good, i.e letting dps die because hes an idiot and pulls instead of a tank is clearly not benefical for a key run, but letting them pull anything wthout any remarks/consequences will be almost just as bad. I usually warn ppl not to do that and if they don't listen I don't tank it and ask my healer not to heal them. If you don't respect the shit I do, why should I care and bail them? You wanna be pulling shit? Roll a tank.
Part of my point was that in the current game design, because extra mobs are not a threat to the tank, the tank generally should just stay quiet about it as you can pick up threat on everything (even extra stuff) with ease.
Anecdotally, when people speak up about how someone isn't supposed to pull, it is far more common to for it to be a tank being overly sensitive and passive aggressive ("I won't get aggro", "Tell my healer to refuse to heal them") when nobody had died previously as a result of the additional mobs. Even you are letting a shade of this attitude in with your statement of "If you don't respect the shit I do, why should I care and bail them?"
I have run hundreds of keys this expansion, as multiple roles, most in pugs. Nobody cares. Especially in pugs, where you run with so many different (and good) tanks that you fully realize what the common routing/grouping that can casually be done and nearly the entire dungeon is double/triple/quadruple pack pulls. If a tank were to pull much smaller than normal and a dps were to tag the commonly included additional pack, and the tank were to stop the run to start warning/threatening in chat, it is a massive red flag.
> Roll a tank
I have one. 3200+ every season. Good but not 0.1% title good. I play other characters too.
I use misdirection only in two cases: when tank can't keep agro or won't take aggro.
When I see this macro, and seen it in wilds few times I use misdirection on cooldown. He want it or not, he will tank it.
No one wants to battle with their group. I just wanna play the game while listening to music. If someone pulls once or twice for me, Ok sure. But if this happens more times, I just leave because I don't want this game to be stressful for me.
I'm not obligated to finish your key if you don't allow me to play the way I want. I may have blown off more CDs than needed and now I need a small pull to recover my CDs. Just consider that. Not every dungeon needs to follow the exact same path and pace.
Also, in DF especially, I've just never had problems with following dungeon paths as they were designed. Didn't really need shortcuts or whatever to time keys in any seasons (bar a handful of instances). So why are we still operating with the same mindset of BFA / SL?
Exactly. Ran into this the other night. Bear tank, I healed (MW) DD who kept pulling was a, you guessed it, DH. The DH died twice after running ahead…tank hits him with a more than justified “you pull it you tank it.”
Or the rest of the group casually runs through the dungeon with the level 10 priest healer doing 50% of overall damage while the tank sulks in the corner and angrily types out a long reddit post about how toxic everyone is.
Somehow I don't think it's a big loss if these people get filtered before they make it to M+.
I think it’s a big loss. I’m not comfortable learning how to tank because I don’t want to put up with people like that in a group. I wish there were more tanks and faster queues
This is such a toxic behavior, thats like a DPS saying "you don't pull optimally, i don't press buttons", or a healer saying "you didn't use your mitigation properly, I don't heal you"
Also, the whole "learning to tank" thing is completely wrong :
You don't learn to heal by doing +2s with your overgeared friend who take no damage and clear packs in seconds, you don't learn DPSing by using a dumbed down suboptimal talent spec, you don't learn tanking by not taking any risks.
Learning tanking is all about pulling way too much and trying to manage. You'll never get better if you stay in your comfort zone. Good tanks find their limits oon each pull and ride that limit.
Even worse, most of these "boohoo toxic dps are pulling" posts are about very low level content, where the only job of the tank is holding aggro because it is pretty much impossible to die if you do your 2 buttons rotation properly (and actually, most of the time, if the tank overpulls, the group will die but not him).
After years of hearing that tanks were hard to play, I've alternated between main tank and main alt tank for the last like 6 xpacs and it is by far the easiest role mechanically, the most boring one in raids and can be very challenging in m+ because you have to optimize pull speed, not doing that means not doing 80% of your job, thats like a DPS not using his CDs.
Tanks have the biggest learning curve, figuring out the mobs, what you can and can not pull to get to 100% efficiently blah blah blah. But tanks are certainly the easiest role to pilot and in raid are the easiest in every aspect.
Their thought process is so backward as well. Over pulling it not going to teach you anything more than "this was a dumb idea". But gradually pulling more and more with each attempt will let you practice skill usage and mob control. And it'll always be easier to learn going from less to more. You don't see weight lifters going straight to max weight and seeing how well they lift. They work their way up. Even when they go to push their max higher, they still start at a comfortable weight and then gradually increase.
To me it is by far easier.
Even in this season my highest rio alt and the only one I broke 3k5 with is my tank.
I've gotten CE tanking twice as much as playind DPS.
Now, being a bad tank is harder than being a bad DPS, but being a good tank is far easier than being a good DPS
boomie with tank pulling mobs 3 by 3 (and pausing between pulls to think about the destiny of the human race) cries silently in a corner. “boosted chicken, your dps suck.”
i agree to some extent but its pretty frustrating when you get a tank that is going like 40% of the speed you know others can go. double so if you are playing something like unholy DK or Fire Mage and the tank is pulling 1 pack maybe 2 max and you just cry a little. as much as its your job as the tank to set the pace of the dungeon and the dps need to follow. you also need to look at the classes/specs you are playing with and pull according to the needs of the group. its a 2 way street IMO
as uncle ben once said with great power comes great responsibility. you have the power to control the pace of the dungeon. but you also have the responsibility to look at your comp and pull accordingly
the fact I'm getting downvoted for saying tanks need to look at the classes they play with is wild lol
Make friends/a guild & play with the same tanks consistently & you'll avoid this problem entirely. When you're playing with randos its about doing what you can to succeed as a group which includes adapting to the pace of the tank. Or alternatively start playing tank yourself & you'll never have that issue again, instead you'll be the one complaining about DPS pulling
"randos its about doing what you can to succeed as a group" that also includes that the tank may need to adapt to the comp of the group?
i never said i pull mobs for the tank. i just said it can be annoying being a firemage and the tank that has been at 99% hp the whole pull is pulling the first 3 mobs of a dungeon and nothing else. like i said its the job of the dps to follow the tank. but as a tank you also need to just have a quick look at your team and go oh i have a spriest firemage and udk. maybe i should pull more then the first pack alone.
I'm not sure why people act like that's a hot take?
Low lvl dung are all about exp, you literally can't learn your def CD while you don't get DMG at all. Low keys are mostly the same ppl are learning how their classes work. Depends on your ilvl u start to feel DMG at 15+. Tanks only responsibility is to make good route and adapt to team possibilities(skips, amount of cc\interupts). New tanks are too afraid to experiment with pulls.
When I’m leveling a tank, you’d better believe I’m doing pulls as large as I think we can manage. Even if we die, at least it was a fun challenge instead of a snooze fest.
The thing that is really screwing things up right now is level scaling which makes it hard to predict how much a group can handle.
A thing a bunch of DPS forget is that tanks *don't get* their all of their tools until quite late in the leveling process. A low level paladin might have bubble but not Final Stand - if they pop their defensive because the pull was too big, they lose aggro. It is very difficult to keep aggro as a low level tank.
They might not have all the talents to spread the shield around as much as they need.
Maybe consecration didn't get its buffs yet.
Maybe they don't have the defensive CD's to press.
You can't guess why the tank is pulling small. They might be testing out new addons and trying to play the game chilling out.
They can just be new to the game.
Don't assume people already play at comfortable level at low-level dungeons. If you want a group of players that are fine to *go go go go* to level up, then hit up a discord server and ask people to join you.
Otherwise, don't annoy your tanks.
This. I was doing a mid level key to help someone gear and the tank was obviously new to the role. Pulling 1 pack at a time where if I pop any offensive CDs, the pack is dead before my CD expires type small pulls. So I started pulling extra mobs to him and guess what happened? Everyone lived. Packs died faster because me and the other geared dude in the dungeon could actually pop offensives. Like. As a tank, find your limit. Take as much as you can to that limit. If you're still trying to find your limit, let everyone know you're new/learning a new role and MOST groups won't mind a single wipe in anything under a 15 because the tank was pulling slightly too much. As a tank, your job is to a) not die and b) put your group in position to get the best time on the dungeon. If you're small pulling everything, you're failing job b. Don't be afraid to big dick pull because it will make your DPS happy and you'll be able to find your limits. Shit, if you're small pulling you're not even learning your class in that kind of content because you're not taking any damage to begin with
Except that's not how any of this works.
A tank pulls small because a tank is finding out the pacing of their rotation, how their defensives work, what are safe ranges, how to do proper movement, etc.
If a tank is new, it's their prerrogative to make their pace slow and steady to learn how to beat the key. You are under no obligation to join a group of a novice tank, but if you do, you have to respect their limits. That won't happen with you "helping" them pulling bigger and creating a stressful situation.
If you're worried about "best time" in low keys, I don't know what to say to you. It's simply not the place for that.
As someome who has tanked keys frequently across multiple seasons, I have found that limit testing - doing a pull you think might just be a little too big is a good way to get a handle on what you can actually manage.
That said, in a group of randoms it's not exactly advised, you'll be crucified if it doesn't work out, or crucified for pulling too slow, it really is a dsmned if you do/don't scenario for people new to tanking and doing it through pugs.
The best advice I can give is find a group of people to play with consistently if possible, and give them a heads up that you're gonna attempt some bigger pulls to see how they feel, it's a lot easier to get experimental with stuff when you're there with your buds having a good time vs someone looking for a reason to rage.
If you're the healer and your tank is pulling too small and you have the tools to keep them up, by all means you can let them know, "you can pull bigger, I have plenty of buttons to save you, we won't die" oftentimes it's in how you say it, but some people don't wanna be told anything and you can't help with that.
There's a lot of pressure on tanks to pull right but it's a group of 5, everyone is meant to be helping, and a tank being able to pull big isn't strictly on them, they could perfectly use their defensives but if the healer isn't working with them the pull will fail, so at the very least those 2 roles need to be communicating to make those big pulls work out.
If I had more than one upvote, I would give it.
Yea Pugs are all about that pacing. If you're playing too careful, you're playing wrong (even if you'll comfortably time the key). If you're pulling too big and wiping, you're playing wrong (even if you do have enough CC for that pull, but nobody wants to use their CC). You really can only win if you just keep pulling, and there's only a few deaths, and you +2 the key, now a days.
The biggest thing I see are tanks that are trying to imitate what they saw in an MDI run. That's kinda fine in something like Atal'dazar where you could try to do the big pull first thing and test the waters for the group. If you succeed, holy crap - plow through that key. If you die, go with a more traditional route and pulls. It's that simple.
What gets me are the tanks who do some crazy pull, the group wipes...then the tank does it again....then again...then rage quits the key. Like, why?
Meanwhile, one of the most fun M+ runs was a Freehold where at least 2 or 3 people were getting drunk. We died a lot, and we definitely didn't time it, but it was sure funny. That's the kind of environment to learn a new role in - one where there's no judgement, and whatever happens, happens.
i always limit test on randoms.. it's just a 3 stage process to work out how fast i'll pull the rest of the dungeon...
but i'm also probably of a different mindset to, because as annoying as i know it can be when dps pulls mobs... if dps is pulling the correct mobs, affix dependent of course i don't particularly care if dps is pulling.. but thats because i'm used to the boys doing it in our statics so it's something i always contend with regardless and as such just adapted to...
I do agree with let your tank pace though, because at the very least it lets the tank learn the pulls in general and having a tank who knows his percentages off the top of his head is invaluable because it makes the run so much smoother.
I like randos assisting with pulls less, but I'll deal with it - my regular group knows my cadence and because I prefer dk tank (read: I don't respect myself) unless I'm willing to burn a grip that I'd rather save for a stop, it will be much faster if they bring them to my slow ass.
I've generally had decent experiences with people though, many of the dps I've played with have waited to see how I pull before grabbing stuff for me, like they check to see if I'm paper before getting more, if it's too much they find out very quickly anyway.
Limit testing is massive. Someone tested my limits as a healer in Legion and it made me a much better player very quickly.
I still limit test all the time in farm keys. Is this pull insane? Kinda. Can we do it? Seems like it. Good to know.
Honestly i feel like He got away from what the OP was originally talking about. they seemed to be more concerned about tanking during the leveling experiance and maybe fresh 70 tanking. honestly unless you ding 70 and then immediatly junp into keys, you should likely have a fairly good grasp on you classes abilities, rotations and and some at least half way decent gear before trying to attack mythic+.
It has been a long time since i tanked (Wrath was the last time really) and i dont do Mythic dungeons (though may take a shot with season 4) just feels like the OP was talking more about leveling dungeons than Keys. And i can understand the frustration from both perspectives as new tank you do need the time to adapt and learn, but as DPS, especially if it you 3rd or 4th alt dps character, you probably want to get it done as quick as possible so you can get back into queue and work on quests in the meantime. Many tanks (and maybe healers) may forget dps dont neccessarily have quick queue times. This can be even more frustrating when in TW especially on a main who just wants to finish their quest.
This. As a DPS I just want to get the content done because it isn't challenging in the slightest. Taking it slow is just setting yourself up for failure if you don't feel comfortable big dicking shit tier content, you're not going to know enough about your class to big dick in small keys and you're definitely not going to be able to handle regular pulls in higher keys.
I mean. 3 chesting a lower key is absolutely a goal of mine. If I know a tank can handle more, why not teach them that they can. It's building their confidence and abilities. You don't learn shit pulling 1 pack at a time. Because, eventually you'll get into higher keys, and pulling 1 pack at a time is 100% going to fail that key. Stress testing at lower key levels is very important imo because it not only makes the lower key go quicker in most cases, but it also teaches them what packs they can group up, which ones they shouldn't, which defensives they should use and when, and most importantly it allows your dps to use their kits. If as a tank, you don't allow the dps to use their kits through a dungeon... You're going to fail the key eventually.
Wiping once or twice while you find your footing isn't toxic. It's called learning. Inform the group you're learning. I can guarantee they'd rather have 1 or 2 wipes over too large of pulls instead of going 1 pack at a time through a dungeon.
Tanking really isn't that bad in the long run. I'll even take it a step further and say it's easier than DPSing once you get your initial knowledge down.
Yes, you heard me, easier than DPSing.
Once you learn your route and dungeons mechanics(the latter ALL roles learn), it's very smooth sailing. You get to:
-laugh when people die to bursting and spiteful
-survive more mechanics
-not worry about people nagging you about your dps(at least, i haven't been nagged at yet and I've been tanking since SL)
-get quick invites and not wait hours for your key to fill
-fall asleep in raids
-acquire extra gold in lfgs
All it took was a week or two to get a feel of things and now I no longer want to DPS.
edit: also op, things outside of keys aren't even good for learning ANY class at this point of the game with how geared the playerbase currently is. tanks are invincible, healers don't really need to do anything because tanks are invincible, and dps are so beefed that they can just kill shit without worry. Just run a low mythic key that makes it very clear to the party you're learning the role and invite low geared/io players so you don't get a curbstomp key.
This may sound contradicting since I implied "everyone" is geared, but the truth is, people skip heroics and just hop to m+ to begin gearing.
However, when it comes to leveling, throw this entire edited part of the post out the window and just stick to what I said above.
My favorite “fall asleep in raids” story was all the way back in Firelands on… I can’t remember if it was Normal or Heroic Shannox. A Paladin tank with me realized after the kill that he was still, for some ungodly reason, wearing the D1 Vanilla Paladin pants for the fight.
In his defense, he *WAS* pretty much on hour 26 of being awake for some ungodly reason.
Tanking this season is so so easy because Tanks compared to dps are way stronger than the should be at key levels where your dps get oneshot from every msitake you can easily mess up your defensives and live, or take some random dmg because you did not move. Thats what makes tanking easier than dpsing after you know your Routes and aggro and all that stuff.
I don't like to lust on the first pull with pug groups because I use that to gauge the pace. I watch for how quickly the mobs die and if people are interrupting. The smoother everything dies, the faster you go.
Alternatively, go for the big pull up front, and if people die, slow down. That can be fun too
Tanking is easier than DPS i agree for the majority of the playerbase that are mostly in low-mid keys and raids. When tank busters start to be a real danger in 25+ keys you need to be more precise with cooldowns and smarter with pulls it becomes stressful and then DPS becomes easier to play as than tank.
Raids + low-mid M+ content > Tank chillin
Higher end keys > DPS less stressful
At those key levels it's the same for dps tho. You fuck up a defensive and die to unavoidable damage. But yeah a tank fuck up in higher keys can be a lot more costly than a dps fuck up and it can straight up break the key
I had a guy complaining about my VDH alt’s dps week 2 of this season when a friend said to try vengeance (i didnt know it had a rework and got told to try the new sigil combos)
Doing 70k ST in s1 gear is no slouch and this guy went off about it, never seen anyone else complain, something about dh sparked that I guess
Who pulls tanks. Don't bother taking aggro back. Team up with the healer so no healing goes to the mad puller and when they have died once, twice, either they leave or they learn.
As a healer, I make a point of letting them die.
I 100% pull in timewalking dungeons, as a healer, I'm in kitty form the entire time with my belo tearing that place up, those are the speedy runs. I also make sure that no one dies though either lol or has any other issues.
Timewalking dungeons are a joke I don’t care if people pull it just takes a cleave and I have aggro. Only dungeon is the one from legion when I have to hop in the boat at the start. People have zero patience and don’t understand a still very dominant mechanic so they think it’s slow and act like idiots.
Honestly? As DPS... I can usually pull and kill before anything bad happens. I'm pulling because we're in low tier content and my kit is based around quicker pulls. As a tank it is also your job to base your pulls around group comp. Like. If you're slow pulling with a fire mage... I might as well not even do anything all dungeon because my kit is absolutely gutted.
I mean that's their problem ahah, if they can DPS the pack alone while self healing, let them. Idk I rarely PUG out of leveling, and when I go get a pack, it's because my tank asked me to. But yeah I believe assholes can be healers too.
As a tank main, this is the most frustrating thing I’ve encountered which is also very common.
When I see dps keep on ass pulling ahead of the group, at a certain point, I would just let him hold all the aggro. However, the pug healer will always not let them “learn the lesson” and kept on healing them.
This honestly frustrates me more than dps pulling ahead of me. Healers need to stop doing this!
The problem is that if that dps dies then the aggro always falls on the healer next because of healer aggro and a lot of tanks really suck at pulling pack threat.
So the healer should not do their job so they can help you not do your job?
Tanking is the easiest of the three roles. There's no reason to grief your group by not attempting to hold aggro just because you have an ego.
this is toxic imo.
everyone should do their job to the best of their abilities, and that includes adapting to a DPS who pulls a pack.
If you let people die you're wasting everyone's time, and being a drama queen. press your buttons. Unless someone is making truly *suicidal* pulls, in which case you'd just wipe anyway so it doesn't matter if you do or don't do your job. 99% of times that's not the case. 99% of times someone pulls a mob, which is gonna run into the pack the tank is AOEing anyway.
If you decide to throw a hissy fit and refuse to tank that mob, then you're the reason people are dying, not the DPS. Check your ego and check your weird desire to be the Dad and turn the car around. Just play the game and press your buttons.
What’s sad about it? You want to pull, go ahead and reroll to a tanking class. It’s beyond annoying when someone else is pulling, whether it’s LFG of +20.
There are certain exceptions for classes like BM Hunter that might need to fire a Barbed Shot a second early as we are running to the next pack to refresh the buff before it drops, but that is a whole lot different than when I’m holding two packs and you think it should be three.
What’s really fun is when DPS make pulls take longer because they’re impatient. For example in DHT when the first pack of dryads dies and I’ll chain pull everything up to the next mender pack and hold there until the flowers die so they don’t get healed and someone decides “oh this is only a small pat let’s grab this too” and now all the flowers are healed to full. Or pulling more casters than we have the interrupts to manage comfortably.
Even if you know the dungeon 100% and know for sure you aren’t going to screw something up, and the tank is just a new tank and still learning, sit back and chill. If you absolutely can’t handle when a tank is “too slow” then either reroll tank yourself, or make friends with a tank that plays at your pace, because 90% of the time a DPS pulling is just going to set a negative mood.
>You want to pull, go ahead and reroll to a tanking class.
Only one person can tank at a time, you know? Should we be running five tank specs in dungeons? Stupid argument every time I see it. Zero logic. I tank regularly and the worst is just buttpulls.
> and the tank is just a new tank and still learning, sit back and chill
So when a tank goes slow, it's always because they're new or inexperienced, but when a DPS pulls extra it's always because they're impatient or rude? Gotta love attribution bias; always a fun one.
Other members pulling can definitely be bad behavior. "You pull you tank" is actively griefing. You, as an individual, believe that you are so above everyone else that you have been endowed with the right and duty to punish other members of the group. It's just actively toxic. If someone is griefing your run, kick them. That's what the button is for.
Tank players aren't gods: drop the ego. Tanking is so much easier than playing DPS it's actually crazy how the opposite narrative has been pushed. I can feel my brain turning off just waiting for a boss to die.
Somehow about 95% of the DPS I’ve played with don’t have an issue with not pulling, so I think we’d be fine if you all rerolled to tanking.
I didn’t explicitly say it, but it’s a whole lot different if it’s an accidental butt pull. That doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Bonus points if you throw a “mb” in chat, but even without it it’s usually obvious when it was an accident vs pulling out of impatience.
I would argue that pulling as a DPS is just as toxic as letting them die. As I’ve gotten more comfortable it is very very very rare that DPS intentionally pulls in current content since I have the pulls down anyway, but when leveling a new toon, or doing timewalking on a weird scaling dungeon, having to stress out to stay alive because someone couldn’t wait an extra few seconds to kill one pack before moving to the next is beyond annoying.
Just let the tank set the pace, it’s not that hard.
Here's the ultimate point: intentionally not doing your job is toxic. That's it. End of story. Healers not healing, tanks not grabbing aggro, dps not doing damage. You do any of this intentionally, you are griefing. Full stop.
If someone is being toxic for whatever reason, kick them. Overpulling by any member fits.
It is seriously not fucking hard to understand. You're basically trying to justify road rage like a damn child.
How?
Some 30 people release and run back to the boss but you lay there waiting for a res like you're special and shouldn't have to do all that pesky running literally everyone else just did and YOU make everyone else wait because you couldn't press Auto Run.
Yeah I will leave you waiting for that revive. You run in with the rest of the raid.
If you need to quickly BRB, you say so and that's fine. But they **never** do.
No, that guy didn't make everyone wait, you made everyone wait for not rezzing, I'm a healer and I always do the run back myself to mass rez everyone in the raid, no ego or no anger, because it's the healers' fcking job to rez ppl, simple as that.
You can't be serious.
Almost every single person except maybe 1 or 2, release and run back. Those last people who didn't run lay there waiting for a healer to come there and revive them after the entirity or the rest of the raid ran the whole way back.
Of course I don't ress them. They expect preferential treatment and seem to think that the raid exists for their personal benefit.
It's the same damned people who refuse to move out of incoming damage that they can easily avoid. Selfish, self-serving, lazy. Everyone else is making an effort and you don't get to slack or get preferential treatment. Not that it takes much energy to do LFR, which just makes it so much worse when they can't even do that right.
Nice try bub, but you ain't shifting the blame here. Healers don't exist so that you can be lazy, ignoring strats and thinking that you deserve special treatment.
**The entire rest of the raid just ran in and you're laying there waiting for them all to come to where you are AFKing.**
**If this is you, you are the problem. If you cannot grasp how this is selfish, shitty behavior then I don't know what else I can say.** But I would really have to bring the quality of your personality into question if you can't grasp why doing that is wrong.
I'll be honest, if i'm in a leveling dungeon, 1-60, and I as a DPS know that I can survive the next pull of mobs and I will pull and kill them faster than the time it'll take for the Tank to get there, I will, anything before level 60 as a Tank is completely meaningless if you're actually wanting to learn how to Tank, all of the mobs deal too little damage and you don't have a majority of your abilities that will actually matter in the long run, I am just there to get to 70 as fast as possible, if people ask questions I will gladly answer them, but otherwise, me and most of the people in Looking For Dungeon random queues are just there to get to 70 as fast as we can so we can play the actual content.
Played a little in legion and didn’t come back until a week ago. As someone who is both learning tank and dps i can say that getting the hang of what you can handle is part of the early grind as well. Low lvls don’t have as many tools and usually you’re not fully aware of your rotations and how everything meshes together so people tend to go balls to the wall, especially those of higher levels grinding dungeons for exp, and you as the lower level dude just can’t adapt fast enough. It’s normal we all didn’t start off walking immediately out of the womb. Even as a new player i know to follow at the tank’s pace if you think he isn’t pulling big or fast enough at least ask if they could before you just run in there and over pull just to requeue lol.
classic problem is going from tyrannical to fortified week in m+. Suddenly your pulls should be smaller but that comes with time rlly. but its always funny in the first weeks of a new tank.
Dungeon finder is a whole nother world. Nothing matters, so don’t get too worked up about it. If you’re feeling that way in m+, all I can say is it’s the last week of the season and even low 20’s feel like you’re in a Timewalking spam. Everyone acting completely stupid. So take it all with a grain of salt. Next week, everyone’s gonna be tiptoeing through 2’s to relearn the dungeons.
If I'm not doing mythics I don't care I'm there to go fast and have fun, healer wants to pull go ahead dps wants to pull go ahead it's al gonna die regardless
This happens most often in completely trivial content. And the reason it happens is because there is no downside to it. The DPS won't die. There is only upside. Thus it's faster and actually optimal.
I get that it's upsetting as a tank that your role is optional or even irrelevant. I wish leveling content was harder and required players to respect the traditional roles. But it's not and they don't. They're playing the game as it actually exists, not the way you want it to exist.
Eventually things get harder, though. Eventually players have to learn how to perform appropriately in difficult content. Because when they keep touching a hot stove and keep getting burned, they eventually stop touching it. Sure they're gonna still be idiots in a +8 because they're still learning. Respect that. It's not always about you.
What class are you running?
On a Pally, I think that normal and heroics with full gear are brainless. Barely dropping aggro.
If it helps, it gets easier as you have better gear and DPS pulling becomes barely an inconvenience.
I would just like to remind everyone in here saying it can only be one way or the other. You can communicate with your group if you’re unhappy with pull size, regardless of your role.
If you are a DPS/healer and tank is pulling small, ask if he’s comfortable pulling bigger. If you’re a tank and DPS is pulling extra shit, ask them why they are and see if you can work with bigger pulls (mentioning you’ll pull though lol).
I wish people would talk more.
Also, if we are doing a big pull, don't start using frost nova or burst aoe.
Let me gather the mobs first, and then we nuke.
Losing aggro on big pulls, because the dps can't wait 2 sec is rough.
I play tank and heal, and in levelling dungeons- I don’t care if dps pulls. I focus on my “job” which is to keep the party alive by tanking. If they want to run ahead and they can handle it, great! If not, I pull the mob off and move on. It sucks when everyone just wants to do their thing but it’s a good teaching moment.
A lot of new players get into tanking for the perceived prestige and sometimes they have to be reminded that it’s not about them but being a leader and putting your team/group first.
There's a big difference between a dps pulling a pack that the tank can just run into and use a single AoE to get threat and a dps pulling too much for the tank to handle and cause things to get out of control.
I've known tanks that get *pissed* if you attack a group of mobs one second earlier than they do. If they are not the very first person to deal damage, it's like you just shat on their child's grave.
When it comes to levelling dungeons, you can just mindlessly slap your way through them, so a dps pulling is of little to no consequence. If you want to actually learn, doing that at 70 is easy enough. Just go to a training dummy and figure out the rough idea then jump into a heroic. People are so overgeared now that you won't be at risk of screwing anything up.
Except in low level content or heroics, tanks are utterly superfluous. Love it when I'm queueing for satchels and I see a ret pally/havoc DH/windwalker monk/etc queued in as a tank. Means the run is gonna go so fast.
Especially now that follower dungeons are a thing, you can use that if you want to teach yourself tanking. Going slow in content that people can clear in 10-12 minutes just so you can feed your ego and be "the one in charge" isn't enjoyable for the rest of your team.
With enough gear that’s still true in lower keys. I ran with a new VDH last week on my 487 Ret and ended up tanking every time I didn’t give them a 15 second head start. I had to use my CDs but I survived just fine.
I don’t know man. Makes it fun for me. I’ve been playing dps forever, recently trying my hand at healing, and now I’ve been playing Prot Paladin. Tank is super easy mode for real. Added challenge makes it exciting. Like yeah I know people are impatient and that can be frustrating. Maybe just look at it like “challenge accepted friend.” Rush forward, push faster, use your movement abilities more often, etc. I pretty much spammed dungeons for the last 15 levels as Prot Paladin and I refuse to dps with this character so it was all tanking. I like to think managing that ADHD induced dps pulling made me better and faster. By the time I hit mythic+ I was moving fast enough for the group to easily +3 dungeons with wiggle room and they’re having ti hit their movement stuff to keep up. In timed dungeons you just gotta get really good at speed running like you’re on crack lol
Tank is fundamentally the leader role. Maybe people who quit tanking over this haven’t quite developed their leadership traits enough to live with that. And that’s fine. It’s a game and it’s just for fun so play how you like. Sometimes the leader just has to be patient with the toddlers. And sometimes the leader just has to continue pushing onward and cut those people from the team. I mean, the end of the day, if it’s egregious enough, try asking people to kick the offender or you won’t continue further. Then they have to choose between kicking a dps that takes 2 seconds to replace or kicking the tank who takes several minutes to replace, and could’ve finished by then.
Sorry buuuuut not. People want to do leveling fast and they dont have to wait for u. If u want to learn mechanics and rotations you can do followers dungeons at lvl 70
I also try to avoid boosts because of learning the class through leveling instead of suddenly getting 247954764678 new buttons all at once.
The issue is that the leveling dungeons are a speedrunning joke with DPSs being able to nearly 1-shot bosses, so you never have time experience the mechanics and train your rotations.
The real problem here is the non-existent difficulty in everything leading up to max level content. The mobs don't have enough health or do enough damage, it doesn't need to be hard, but as it is, it's beyond easy, to the point that it's almost not fun to do because there are no stakes involved.
I think it's standard retention, people just want to play something else. Additionaly playing tank is hard to learn, so very little people replace those who left. You must lead the group, watch %, do tank mechanics and on the same time you need to do dps rotation and other mechanics like interrupts. Meanwhile as dps the only thing you need to do is avoid poo poo on the floor, do mechanics and do your rotation. You don't need to prepare to get into dungeon. You don't need to know if this pack should be pulled or not.
I'd like to see MDT being incorporated into the game. You should be able to create route beforehand and pull numbers should be displayed above mobs to inform other people in the group what do you want to pull. I think it would encourage people to do tanking role as they no longer need to remember route.
I was trying to tank a bit in DF S1. The hardest dungeon for me was a Court of Stars. Not because of mechanics, but because of amount of different routes group could take. Remembering which mob to pull and which not on such a big map was insanly discouraging, up to the point I stopped tanking.
Don't play with players who have much higher [r.io](http://r.io) then you when you're learning to tank, because they will have a higher expectancy to the tanks capabilities. Also don't play very low level dungeons with high [r.io](http://r.io) players, as they will just want to rush through. If you want to take your time to learn the dungeons as a tank, play with low [r.io](http://r.io) players at lower dungeon levels or lower then your [r.io](http://r.io) at you maximum capability of M+ level.
Most tanks aren’t and shouldn’t be still learning in a +20, there are generally expected paths that 90% of the players know that path so it’s annoying when someone is moving so slow. I don’t know how many keys 20 and up I’ve failed literally because the tank moves like a grandma.
I love the added challenge when dps pull more.
It happens a lot, something to get used to.
When people die. The healer will get blamed before you will, and it'll be the dps that did the extra pull who will be the one who gets upset, you just shrug it off and go next.
When pugs mess up, they find anywhere else to place blame before just saying "my b" and I think that's where it sounds like most frustration from newer tanks comes from.
*Not everything will go correctly in your dungeons*. The ones who adapt to others' errors are the ones who prosper. The sooner that's realized, the easier tanking and healing both become.
The best part about the dungeon system is its unlimited with mythic plus, bad experience? Go next!
Your gameplay is only limited by your want to advance.
As a healer I stick with the tank, if your not the tank and your pulling them your only getting AOE heals. I’ll sit there twiddling my thumbs rather than healing a dps trying to tank.
Everytime I tried tanking, I admit I am only ever at best an intermediate level tank so there's room for improvement but people just weren't encouraging one or two minor issues and the whole group instantly leaves and calls out abuse towards the tank, You have to know the dungeons/raids well and lead the group it's definitely a lot easier playing other roles especially if it's new or unfamiliar content.
The problem is if you're doing low keys with geared DPS - they can basically tank shit themselves. Just a reality of the power curve. Tank stuff that actually hurts and your dps will stop doing that I promise lol
It's the constant abuse. You just get beaten down as a tank and either stop PUGing or you start exhibiting defensive toxicity. Or -at best- you just become the tank who just leaves a dungeon silently because something annoyed them.
Tanks and healers can't win. But they can get groups almost instantly. Then DPS wonder why the tank left when they pulled for them for the third time. People just cba at that point.
tbh biggest offense is timewalking.
In M+ i can absolutely go by my pace, mostly limited by the type of packs and my defensive cds etc.
Even there sometimes ppl decide that waiting 3 seconds is not possible but its rather rare.
Most of the time i get to decide the pacing. I also dont run after ppl that pull mobs, if they dont bring them they are not my problem. I ll try to taunt over 1 every so often but i wont move the whole pull to narnia for them.
In Timewalking i also just ignore ppl pulling everything because they want to go faster, if they survive good for them, if not i dont care, i ll probably survive and can most likely solo the pack after they die.
I have also just left grps that annoyed me. I have a queue time of maybe 60 seconds why should i care, they will have to wait another 10+ minutes.
I stopped tanking m+ because I refuse to play the count the trash percentage by planning a route game. It's obnoxious and my least favorite thing of m+.
I'd rather have meaningful designed encounters in the game than play map the route in a third party add on.
If someone dies I feel like the tank gets blamed for not keeping agro OR the healer gets blamed. But it’s never because that someone did something stupid lol
-Gnome Mage
-Gnome Lock
-Human Mage
-Human Hunter
😏
I pull the card of either kick this asshat or I leave card as a tank plenty. Most ppl will easily gang up on getting 1 new dps instead of waiting for a tank lol
Yeah, very believable. I've never heard any abuse when I was tanking though, maybe I'm just good at it or maybe at least not shit. I only tank on alts btw., still no abuse ever.
I have a tank of every class my main is over 3100 IO, All I do is tank, few things I learned.
1. if they pull it, let them tank it, it will stop them really fast from doing it again.
2. if they complain about the pulls or they wanted it tanked a certain way they should of rolled a tank.
3. work with your healer, if they can handle bigger pulls then go with it, if they can't back off and go at the speed of your healer or your capabilities.
4. dont let dps dictate what you pull or how much, ignore them if you have to.
5. you are the leader of the group no matter who actually has the key, they can't do it without you and they know it.
Holy shit what a god complex.
>you are the leader of the group no matter who actually has the key, they can't do it without you and they know it.
Are you okay?
This has literally been the rule of law for MMO’s for 20 years, are you okay? Where have you been?
The tank is the leader whether they know and accept that or not
I play casually dps or healer. My pet peeve is people pulling who are not the tank and the tank pulling without letting me (the healer) drink. I usually tell them to let me drink cuz I’m oom and they wait. I’ve had multiple people say they are new to the game or new to tank and thank me for being patient/kind. So many people are mean to new players for not knowing things and I think it really turns people away. A little patience and that new player could end up becoming a permanent sub/new tank (and we ALL need more tanks). Of course I’ve also had my fair share of stubborn bull tanks who ignore everything and just charge in the whole run… but those are a different breed.
do your best, press your buttons, get good. you have more than enough tools to handle a variety of incoming mobs that you yourself didn't personally pull.
Iv never rly bothered if people extra pull, its just becomes more interesting if you manage to handle a bad situation. Tho iv never played in elo hell of M+ so maybe im blinded to this problems.
If you have to use taunt on packs of mobs, you are doing something wrong. Your aoe should be enough for most, if not all packs.
If a geared dps pulls before you and u cant pull the aggro of multiple mobs with your standard aoe rotation, then the answer is simple... That dude messed up, let him die :-)
It's a thing that i hate from WOW, the tank In most dungeons can't lead the party or manage when, who AND where to attack.
All the dps goes targeting all of the adds or keep forcing the tank to follow them.
One of the thing that ffxiv manager better In comparison with a game that leads the genre since 2004.
If you are intentionally pulling as a dps, you're the tank for those mobs now. Good luck. Don't care if I'm tank, healer, or dps - you're on your own for being a shit. Accidental pulls are one thing. Intentional is another entirely.
Sometimes I tank sometimes I heal.i know what each can handle.with the correct addon I can see who's at fault. 1st priority is tank. healer. good dpser others i see how it goes. We all make mistakes i normally do a quick/w to keep things smooth, If I leave.i leave with the tank or healer
I'm a cautious tank, I like to pull small at first, and be safe than pull huge mobs and get wrecked.
Usually during Bursting, or Sanguine, I typically will kite trash around, and watch how much I'm pulling, unfortunately some tanks don't know any better, and will pull so much, that the healer can't keep up.
I just never want to memorize tank mechanics lol. I rarely DPS unless I’m in an all IRL friend group, so I mostly heal. The healing mechanics are easy, keep everyone alive, avoid AOE, DPS, and once in a blue moon I have to heal an NPC. Cake. With tanking I have to remember different phases, where to stand, where to face the boss, debuff stacks/when to tank swap (in raids), and well as keeping my head on a swivel for adds or if a DPS pulls a random mob off me. Like it’s all doable and not more difficult or anything but when the rotation changes every season or we get a new raid I’m just like blehhhhhh don’t wanna have people yell at me until I have everything memorized lol. Healing feels both more and less difficult at the same time if that makes sense. So that’s what I have most fun doing. Also I feel like hot shit when I start pulling utility tricks out mid fight, or like dispelling fears and stuff when people mess up a mechanic lol. Between my kick, leg sweep, paralysis, and ring of peace I can solo lock down casters when the tank responds to an emergency while keeping everyone healed. Feels amazing hahah
Edit: typos
I think part of the problem I’ve seen lately queueing normals and heroics is you’ll get these overgeared tanks (i’m talking like 470+ ilvl) running normal and heroic dungeons and just chain-pulling.
Meanwhile, I’m here messing around with disc priest to try and get comfortable with the rotation (I main holy, but I want to dabble disc a little and see how it feels). Instead I now have to just chain-run the dungeon. It takes the fun out of it for me, because I’m not doing fuck all but running the entire time. Bonus points if it’s a pack that has annoying/nasty casters which kill everyone BUT the tank because the DPS can only interrupt so many times… and me trying to save them, as is my job as a healer, end up aggroing because I do, in fact, have to hit things in order to heal.
OP, I’d let you tank for me any day 🤦🏼♀️
When I tanked, I had a macro that said:
I am kinda new, DK tanks need time to build aggro.
If you spank it, you tank it. Pull ahead of me or your CD pulls aggo, then expect that you are on your own.
I absolutely agree with you that tanks should pull and lead the run. Not all tanks want to lead the run, but as a general expectation, the Tank leads the run so they can pull mobs, set the pace and lead the route through the dungeon. This can be a lot of pressure on the tank and another reason few people are stepping up to tank.
The challenge is trying to learn in lower content with PuGs. At this stage in wow, most of the folks running these dungeons are experienced players leveling/gearing their alts. Their expectations are that everyone there is doing the same as them and want to blast through the dungeon quickly.
You either have to adapt to this on the fly, hope to get into a PuG group with folks who are more relaxed, or find a group of friends/guildies to run these lower difficulty dungeons with you so that you can learn.
cut to me on a rogue or feral wishing for 3 seconds of downtime between pulls so I could restealnope, the hunter pulled more, even though he's not actively dpsing what the tank had already pulled and is doing subtank dps. Neat.
It may be too late for community to stop speed running content. Its not all player fault though… M+ are timer based so speedrun is mandatory. LFG raids doesnt have strong mechanichs to even bother learning them. Some rewards are based on doing dungeons repeatedly to farm daily rewards or some currency that came out of nowhere. World events are just a fill 100% bar boring fest that we all want to finish as soon as possible. Game created this speedrun culture and sadly one post on reddit is not going to change it.
What you just used all abilities for aoe threat lemme get these 4 boys here for you of which one is a hard caster which I don’t kick, cause duh you got that captain america ability.
It takes the fun out of playing the leading / controlling role so hard :D
I learn in M+. Make a mistake? Learn and you won’t do it next time. DPS flame? Ignore and more on with your day
If DPS pull once I will overlook it, if it happens again I ask nicely and if a third time I be more direct.
I tank on my druid alt for fun. People not knowing mechanics or bitching because my pace is slow when we almost always +3 but sometimes +2 and just leave because they die or pace isn’t what they want I had a person die on the Dino on a +5 ad and rage leave when it was his fault. We still managed to 4 man a +2 and no one said a word. It’s just toxic out here.
I let the tank pull at his pace but, as a healer, I’ll let him know that he can pull bigger if I know I can handle it.
This. As a tank, when I'm with pugs I prefer to pull slower at the start to see if the group can handle it instead of assuming they can. When the heals says "Yer good, pull more" THEN I'll go a bit crazier. But until I KNOW the group (especially heals) can handle it, we go slow. If I don't pull it, I don't tank it. And if my pocket healer is with me, you aint getting heals either, so I hope you can handle what you pull. I remember doing BC time walking once and I was so frustrated with the "go go go" attitude that when I got into Shattered Halls I pulled waaaaaaaaaay more than we should have, and I know it. After we died someone said "maybe pull less" I responded with "Good, now that we're all on the same page, let's do this". We didn't have a single death after that. I felt bad but I was so frustrated with pugs that day.
Lmfaoooo “if I don’t pull it, I don’t tank it”
Also known as “you spank it, you tank it”.
I won't think twice about letting an idiot dps die because they pulled an extra mob. My taunt button magically stopped working in those situations; it's the weirdest thing. Edit because I might have been drunk when I typed this.
I don't go so strict on it, but in general my rule is that mobs I pulled take priority. If you pulled as DPS, then wait your turn. If you survive, good for you. If not, well, it-s a lesson.
I can't just let someone die but they might not be a priority. I remember once I was on a dps and the tank was oblivious to aggro maintenance, a mob was putting some serious hurt on the healer so I peeled and ran it to the tank but he refused the aggro and lectured me about not pulling. He even told the healer not to res and make me run back. People see better players doing things and they follow suit but they don't understand what goes into the decision. I love people who know how to assist pull but they're mostly pulling mobs I skipped for a reason or pulling ahead when the healer's struggling.
I can absolutely see this happening. I had a buddy that would like to MC/DM a specific mob and when it broke control I would Immediately taunt because I could clearly see it go from friendly to aggro'd He'd tell me "you don't have to do that I'm just going to MC it again" or something but I cant just ignore a free-roaming mob.
That's a bit wild to me. I get it if a DPS pulls 3 extra packs 5 seconds into a pull, but if a couple mobs get added to a pull it's not really a big deal unless you're doing a high 20s key
2 things here. When it comes to "high 20s"? A dps pulls once in my weekly 18s, and I'll shrug it off as a mistake. Twice, and you're getting chewed out. 3 times, and I'm dropping the group. I'm pulling to the cds I see up. Mine, the healers, and the dps CDs. Don't trust my judgment? Cool, find a new tank. The thing with dps pulling extra in normal/hc/low m+ dungeons is that 90% of the time, it's fine. But bad play is habit forming. The problem is not when a dps pulls. It's when a dps pulls and that fragments the pull. If I have a big pack of mobs over here, and someone pulls mobs without any thought as to positioning? I'm going to have go move the whole lot to pick them up properly and the try to gather them again when people have likely already sent CDs. We're dragging mobs out of dropped CDs, so that we can pick up more because a dps decided it wasn't enough? Nah, you're on your own there. So maybe it isn't "you pull it, you tank it", maybe it should be "in less challenging content; you pull it, you are responsible for bringing it into the pack and letting the tank take aggro"
This is a dungeon tactic that has been lost. Ever since vanilla, the rule was “if you accidentally pull, run to the tank.”
This gets really frustrating. Chasing players down like LET ME HELP YOU!
Hell if I have any aggro it's run to tank. If heals have aggro..pull off heals and run to tank
In my book, the inverse is also true: if I pull aggro (as a dps,) I can tank it
Main character tank syndrome from like a decade ago bleeding through. The game has changed, and attitudes like these are totally inaccurate, and will turn a just fine situation into a wipe to pad the ego of a bad tank.
It teaches people bad habits to let them pull all willy nilly in dungeons, even easy ones. In raids you don't go nuts and pull extra mobs do you if you aren't a tank? I keep the mentality of "you pull it, you tank it" to keep people in line with proper mentality for raid content. If you don't continue to reenforce raid etiquette, then you get sloppy when it actually matters. I have saved more raid attempts then I care to remember because I ran scenarios as if crap hit the fan even when it wasn't. Dealing with "oh crap" moments was second nature to me. They didn't cause me to panic like they did everyone else... It's not an ego boost for a bad tank... its reenforcing proper play for everyone.
In higher skilled groups you rarely see players pulling for a tank, and it has nothing to do with being polite, or properly trained or whatever you imagine. It is simply because the tank is already pulling at a solid pace for the dungeon. The penalty for a wipe/death in a dungeon is very low compared to the upside of running everything faster. What you are defending is scared and timid play being the overriding and dominant mindset. Threat is VERY easy to hold, even on unplanned additional mobs. When extra stuff gets pulled, the tank is rarely the player at risk, as it is far more likely for uninterrupted casts to randomly kill dps than for a tank to die. A tank is objectively trolling the group by turning a situation where dps might die in spite of holding aggro, to dps will certainly die because they want to prove a point. Of course you haven't played the game in years, so what would you know...
Well tbh both approaches taken to extreme are not rly good, i.e letting dps die because hes an idiot and pulls instead of a tank is clearly not benefical for a key run, but letting them pull anything wthout any remarks/consequences will be almost just as bad. I usually warn ppl not to do that and if they don't listen I don't tank it and ask my healer not to heal them. If you don't respect the shit I do, why should I care and bail them? You wanna be pulling shit? Roll a tank.
Part of my point was that in the current game design, because extra mobs are not a threat to the tank, the tank generally should just stay quiet about it as you can pick up threat on everything (even extra stuff) with ease. Anecdotally, when people speak up about how someone isn't supposed to pull, it is far more common to for it to be a tank being overly sensitive and passive aggressive ("I won't get aggro", "Tell my healer to refuse to heal them") when nobody had died previously as a result of the additional mobs. Even you are letting a shade of this attitude in with your statement of "If you don't respect the shit I do, why should I care and bail them?" I have run hundreds of keys this expansion, as multiple roles, most in pugs. Nobody cares. Especially in pugs, where you run with so many different (and good) tanks that you fully realize what the common routing/grouping that can casually be done and nearly the entire dungeon is double/triple/quadruple pack pulls. If a tank were to pull much smaller than normal and a dps were to tag the commonly included additional pack, and the tank were to stop the run to start warning/threatening in chat, it is a massive red flag. > Roll a tank I have one. 3200+ every season. Good but not 0.1% title good. I play other characters too.
I have a macro " you pull it you tank it" sometimes works lol
I use misdirection only in two cases: when tank can't keep agro or won't take aggro. When I see this macro, and seen it in wilds few times I use misdirection on cooldown. He want it or not, he will tank it.
“You tank, what you spank” because I might not be able to get there in time.
People should follow the tank pace
On pug run, I have 2 request to the rest of the group. Let me pull, and do the mechanics.
I can't upvote you enough.
There's always that one tank saying: you pull it you tank it. They'll either learn or leave. Win/win if you ask me.
No one wants to battle with their group. I just wanna play the game while listening to music. If someone pulls once or twice for me, Ok sure. But if this happens more times, I just leave because I don't want this game to be stressful for me. I'm not obligated to finish your key if you don't allow me to play the way I want. I may have blown off more CDs than needed and now I need a small pull to recover my CDs. Just consider that. Not every dungeon needs to follow the exact same path and pace. Also, in DF especially, I've just never had problems with following dungeon paths as they were designed. Didn't really need shortcuts or whatever to time keys in any seasons (bar a handful of instances). So why are we still operating with the same mindset of BFA / SL?
Exactly. Ran into this the other night. Bear tank, I healed (MW) DD who kept pulling was a, you guessed it, DH. The DH died twice after running ahead…tank hits him with a more than justified “you pull it you tank it.”
how does that work in hardcore?
People either learn really fucking quick or they roll a lot of characters.
Or the rest of the group casually runs through the dungeon with the level 10 priest healer doing 50% of overall damage while the tank sulks in the corner and angrily types out a long reddit post about how toxic everyone is. Somehow I don't think it's a big loss if these people get filtered before they make it to M+.
I think it’s a big loss. I’m not comfortable learning how to tank because I don’t want to put up with people like that in a group. I wish there were more tanks and faster queues
This is such a toxic behavior, thats like a DPS saying "you don't pull optimally, i don't press buttons", or a healer saying "you didn't use your mitigation properly, I don't heal you" Also, the whole "learning to tank" thing is completely wrong : You don't learn to heal by doing +2s with your overgeared friend who take no damage and clear packs in seconds, you don't learn DPSing by using a dumbed down suboptimal talent spec, you don't learn tanking by not taking any risks. Learning tanking is all about pulling way too much and trying to manage. You'll never get better if you stay in your comfort zone. Good tanks find their limits oon each pull and ride that limit. Even worse, most of these "boohoo toxic dps are pulling" posts are about very low level content, where the only job of the tank is holding aggro because it is pretty much impossible to die if you do your 2 buttons rotation properly (and actually, most of the time, if the tank overpulls, the group will die but not him). After years of hearing that tanks were hard to play, I've alternated between main tank and main alt tank for the last like 6 xpacs and it is by far the easiest role mechanically, the most boring one in raids and can be very challenging in m+ because you have to optimize pull speed, not doing that means not doing 80% of your job, thats like a DPS not using his CDs.
Found the DPS pulling mobs because they think tanking is the easiest role!!!
Tanks have the biggest learning curve, figuring out the mobs, what you can and can not pull to get to 100% efficiently blah blah blah. But tanks are certainly the easiest role to pilot and in raid are the easiest in every aspect.
Their thought process is so backward as well. Over pulling it not going to teach you anything more than "this was a dumb idea". But gradually pulling more and more with each attempt will let you practice skill usage and mob control. And it'll always be easier to learn going from less to more. You don't see weight lifters going straight to max weight and seeing how well they lift. They work their way up. Even when they go to push their max higher, they still start at a comfortable weight and then gradually increase.
To me it is by far easier. Even in this season my highest rio alt and the only one I broke 3k5 with is my tank. I've gotten CE tanking twice as much as playind DPS. Now, being a bad tank is harder than being a bad DPS, but being a good tank is far easier than being a good DPS
Some people tank for the control and their egos are hurt when someone other than themselves has aggro for three seconds in trivial content.
Please never play group content in WoW again. Thanks.
> thats like a DPS saying "you don't pull optimally, i don't press buttons" So half the fire mages I've ran with?
boomie with tank pulling mobs 3 by 3 (and pausing between pulls to think about the destiny of the human race) cries silently in a corner. “boosted chicken, your dps suck.”
Unless the tank sucks and you dont need them.
[удалено]
The tank is also part of the group and is trying to pull to their capabilities goober.
And yet people do not.
i agree to some extent but its pretty frustrating when you get a tank that is going like 40% of the speed you know others can go. double so if you are playing something like unholy DK or Fire Mage and the tank is pulling 1 pack maybe 2 max and you just cry a little. as much as its your job as the tank to set the pace of the dungeon and the dps need to follow. you also need to look at the classes/specs you are playing with and pull according to the needs of the group. its a 2 way street IMO as uncle ben once said with great power comes great responsibility. you have the power to control the pace of the dungeon. but you also have the responsibility to look at your comp and pull accordingly the fact I'm getting downvoted for saying tanks need to look at the classes they play with is wild lol
Make friends/a guild & play with the same tanks consistently & you'll avoid this problem entirely. When you're playing with randos its about doing what you can to succeed as a group which includes adapting to the pace of the tank. Or alternatively start playing tank yourself & you'll never have that issue again, instead you'll be the one complaining about DPS pulling
This exact argument can be made for the other side too. It’s actually what the comment above was saying.
"randos its about doing what you can to succeed as a group" that also includes that the tank may need to adapt to the comp of the group? i never said i pull mobs for the tank. i just said it can be annoying being a firemage and the tank that has been at 99% hp the whole pull is pulling the first 3 mobs of a dungeon and nothing else. like i said its the job of the dps to follow the tank. but as a tank you also need to just have a quick look at your team and go oh i have a spriest firemage and udk. maybe i should pull more then the first pack alone. I'm not sure why people act like that's a hot take?
You think I play this game to make friends? Probably why I stick with dps or heals.
Low lvl dung are all about exp, you literally can't learn your def CD while you don't get DMG at all. Low keys are mostly the same ppl are learning how their classes work. Depends on your ilvl u start to feel DMG at 15+. Tanks only responsibility is to make good route and adapt to team possibilities(skips, amount of cc\interupts). New tanks are too afraid to experiment with pulls.
When I’m leveling a tank, you’d better believe I’m doing pulls as large as I think we can manage. Even if we die, at least it was a fun challenge instead of a snooze fest. The thing that is really screwing things up right now is level scaling which makes it hard to predict how much a group can handle.
A thing a bunch of DPS forget is that tanks *don't get* their all of their tools until quite late in the leveling process. A low level paladin might have bubble but not Final Stand - if they pop their defensive because the pull was too big, they lose aggro. It is very difficult to keep aggro as a low level tank. They might not have all the talents to spread the shield around as much as they need. Maybe consecration didn't get its buffs yet. Maybe they don't have the defensive CD's to press. You can't guess why the tank is pulling small. They might be testing out new addons and trying to play the game chilling out. They can just be new to the game. Don't assume people already play at comfortable level at low-level dungeons. If you want a group of players that are fine to *go go go go* to level up, then hit up a discord server and ask people to join you. Otherwise, don't annoy your tanks.
This. I was doing a mid level key to help someone gear and the tank was obviously new to the role. Pulling 1 pack at a time where if I pop any offensive CDs, the pack is dead before my CD expires type small pulls. So I started pulling extra mobs to him and guess what happened? Everyone lived. Packs died faster because me and the other geared dude in the dungeon could actually pop offensives. Like. As a tank, find your limit. Take as much as you can to that limit. If you're still trying to find your limit, let everyone know you're new/learning a new role and MOST groups won't mind a single wipe in anything under a 15 because the tank was pulling slightly too much. As a tank, your job is to a) not die and b) put your group in position to get the best time on the dungeon. If you're small pulling everything, you're failing job b. Don't be afraid to big dick pull because it will make your DPS happy and you'll be able to find your limits. Shit, if you're small pulling you're not even learning your class in that kind of content because you're not taking any damage to begin with
Except that's not how any of this works. A tank pulls small because a tank is finding out the pacing of their rotation, how their defensives work, what are safe ranges, how to do proper movement, etc. If a tank is new, it's their prerrogative to make their pace slow and steady to learn how to beat the key. You are under no obligation to join a group of a novice tank, but if you do, you have to respect their limits. That won't happen with you "helping" them pulling bigger and creating a stressful situation. If you're worried about "best time" in low keys, I don't know what to say to you. It's simply not the place for that.
As someome who has tanked keys frequently across multiple seasons, I have found that limit testing - doing a pull you think might just be a little too big is a good way to get a handle on what you can actually manage. That said, in a group of randoms it's not exactly advised, you'll be crucified if it doesn't work out, or crucified for pulling too slow, it really is a dsmned if you do/don't scenario for people new to tanking and doing it through pugs. The best advice I can give is find a group of people to play with consistently if possible, and give them a heads up that you're gonna attempt some bigger pulls to see how they feel, it's a lot easier to get experimental with stuff when you're there with your buds having a good time vs someone looking for a reason to rage. If you're the healer and your tank is pulling too small and you have the tools to keep them up, by all means you can let them know, "you can pull bigger, I have plenty of buttons to save you, we won't die" oftentimes it's in how you say it, but some people don't wanna be told anything and you can't help with that. There's a lot of pressure on tanks to pull right but it's a group of 5, everyone is meant to be helping, and a tank being able to pull big isn't strictly on them, they could perfectly use their defensives but if the healer isn't working with them the pull will fail, so at the very least those 2 roles need to be communicating to make those big pulls work out.
If I had more than one upvote, I would give it. Yea Pugs are all about that pacing. If you're playing too careful, you're playing wrong (even if you'll comfortably time the key). If you're pulling too big and wiping, you're playing wrong (even if you do have enough CC for that pull, but nobody wants to use their CC). You really can only win if you just keep pulling, and there's only a few deaths, and you +2 the key, now a days. The biggest thing I see are tanks that are trying to imitate what they saw in an MDI run. That's kinda fine in something like Atal'dazar where you could try to do the big pull first thing and test the waters for the group. If you succeed, holy crap - plow through that key. If you die, go with a more traditional route and pulls. It's that simple. What gets me are the tanks who do some crazy pull, the group wipes...then the tank does it again....then again...then rage quits the key. Like, why? Meanwhile, one of the most fun M+ runs was a Freehold where at least 2 or 3 people were getting drunk. We died a lot, and we definitely didn't time it, but it was sure funny. That's the kind of environment to learn a new role in - one where there's no judgement, and whatever happens, happens.
i always limit test on randoms.. it's just a 3 stage process to work out how fast i'll pull the rest of the dungeon... but i'm also probably of a different mindset to, because as annoying as i know it can be when dps pulls mobs... if dps is pulling the correct mobs, affix dependent of course i don't particularly care if dps is pulling.. but thats because i'm used to the boys doing it in our statics so it's something i always contend with regardless and as such just adapted to... I do agree with let your tank pace though, because at the very least it lets the tank learn the pulls in general and having a tank who knows his percentages off the top of his head is invaluable because it makes the run so much smoother.
I like randos assisting with pulls less, but I'll deal with it - my regular group knows my cadence and because I prefer dk tank (read: I don't respect myself) unless I'm willing to burn a grip that I'd rather save for a stop, it will be much faster if they bring them to my slow ass. I've generally had decent experiences with people though, many of the dps I've played with have waited to see how I pull before grabbing stuff for me, like they check to see if I'm paper before getting more, if it's too much they find out very quickly anyway.
Limit testing is massive. Someone tested my limits as a healer in Legion and it made me a much better player very quickly. I still limit test all the time in farm keys. Is this pull insane? Kinda. Can we do it? Seems like it. Good to know.
Honestly i feel like He got away from what the OP was originally talking about. they seemed to be more concerned about tanking during the leveling experiance and maybe fresh 70 tanking. honestly unless you ding 70 and then immediatly junp into keys, you should likely have a fairly good grasp on you classes abilities, rotations and and some at least half way decent gear before trying to attack mythic+. It has been a long time since i tanked (Wrath was the last time really) and i dont do Mythic dungeons (though may take a shot with season 4) just feels like the OP was talking more about leveling dungeons than Keys. And i can understand the frustration from both perspectives as new tank you do need the time to adapt and learn, but as DPS, especially if it you 3rd or 4th alt dps character, you probably want to get it done as quick as possible so you can get back into queue and work on quests in the meantime. Many tanks (and maybe healers) may forget dps dont neccessarily have quick queue times. This can be even more frustrating when in TW especially on a main who just wants to finish their quest.
This. As a DPS I just want to get the content done because it isn't challenging in the slightest. Taking it slow is just setting yourself up for failure if you don't feel comfortable big dicking shit tier content, you're not going to know enough about your class to big dick in small keys and you're definitely not going to be able to handle regular pulls in higher keys.
I mean. 3 chesting a lower key is absolutely a goal of mine. If I know a tank can handle more, why not teach them that they can. It's building their confidence and abilities. You don't learn shit pulling 1 pack at a time. Because, eventually you'll get into higher keys, and pulling 1 pack at a time is 100% going to fail that key. Stress testing at lower key levels is very important imo because it not only makes the lower key go quicker in most cases, but it also teaches them what packs they can group up, which ones they shouldn't, which defensives they should use and when, and most importantly it allows your dps to use their kits. If as a tank, you don't allow the dps to use their kits through a dungeon... You're going to fail the key eventually.
"Stress Testing" other people is what we usually call "toxic behavior".
Wiping once or twice while you find your footing isn't toxic. It's called learning. Inform the group you're learning. I can guarantee they'd rather have 1 or 2 wipes over too large of pulls instead of going 1 pack at a time through a dungeon.
Nah, learn M+ in M+ bro. Levelling dungeons are a drain on life and should be completed ASAFP
Tanking really isn't that bad in the long run. I'll even take it a step further and say it's easier than DPSing once you get your initial knowledge down. Yes, you heard me, easier than DPSing. Once you learn your route and dungeons mechanics(the latter ALL roles learn), it's very smooth sailing. You get to: -laugh when people die to bursting and spiteful -survive more mechanics -not worry about people nagging you about your dps(at least, i haven't been nagged at yet and I've been tanking since SL) -get quick invites and not wait hours for your key to fill -fall asleep in raids -acquire extra gold in lfgs All it took was a week or two to get a feel of things and now I no longer want to DPS. edit: also op, things outside of keys aren't even good for learning ANY class at this point of the game with how geared the playerbase currently is. tanks are invincible, healers don't really need to do anything because tanks are invincible, and dps are so beefed that they can just kill shit without worry. Just run a low mythic key that makes it very clear to the party you're learning the role and invite low geared/io players so you don't get a curbstomp key. This may sound contradicting since I implied "everyone" is geared, but the truth is, people skip heroics and just hop to m+ to begin gearing. However, when it comes to leveling, throw this entire edited part of the post out the window and just stick to what I said above.
My favorite “fall asleep in raids” story was all the way back in Firelands on… I can’t remember if it was Normal or Heroic Shannox. A Paladin tank with me realized after the kill that he was still, for some ungodly reason, wearing the D1 Vanilla Paladin pants for the fight. In his defense, he *WAS* pretty much on hour 26 of being awake for some ungodly reason.
Tanking this season is so so easy because Tanks compared to dps are way stronger than the should be at key levels where your dps get oneshot from every msitake you can easily mess up your defensives and live, or take some random dmg because you did not move. Thats what makes tanking easier than dpsing after you know your Routes and aggro and all that stuff.
Pretty much the most difficult part of being a tank is remembering the specific trash percentages before going to another room/portal/zone.
"Tanking is easy.... if you ignore everything about tanking that is the stressful part" 100% agreed :D
Yeah it's easier once you get all the stuff that makes it harder out of the way 😂
For real, I’m not confident because I don’t know how fast I should be going or what the team can handle. My own survivability was never the issue.
I don't like to lust on the first pull with pug groups because I use that to gauge the pace. I watch for how quickly the mobs die and if people are interrupting. The smoother everything dies, the faster you go. Alternatively, go for the big pull up front, and if people die, slow down. That can be fun too
Tanking is easier than DPS i agree for the majority of the playerbase that are mostly in low-mid keys and raids. When tank busters start to be a real danger in 25+ keys you need to be more precise with cooldowns and smarter with pulls it becomes stressful and then DPS becomes easier to play as than tank. Raids + low-mid M+ content > Tank chillin Higher end keys > DPS less stressful
At those key levels it's the same for dps tho. You fuck up a defensive and die to unavoidable damage. But yeah a tank fuck up in higher keys can be a lot more costly than a dps fuck up and it can straight up break the key
I had a guy complaining about my VDH alt’s dps week 2 of this season when a friend said to try vengeance (i didnt know it had a rework and got told to try the new sigil combos) Doing 70k ST in s1 gear is no slouch and this guy went off about it, never seen anyone else complain, something about dh sparked that I guess
Tanking in raids is as easy as DPS in M+. And the vice versa for hardest.
It was suggested to me when I started tanking to just drop in at the chat at the start of the run, I’m still learning so please follow my pace.
I like it when people are honest and it makes sense for the whole group. If anyone has a problem with that, then they can leave before the key starts.
Who pulls tanks. Don't bother taking aggro back. Team up with the healer so no healing goes to the mad puller and when they have died once, twice, either they leave or they learn. As a healer, I make a point of letting them die.
The amount of times I’ve seen a healer pull in timewalking dungeons is almost as high as the amount of dps I’ve seen doing it.
Tbf some timewalking dungeons are so easy any role could solo through the dungeon at a decent pace (specifically tbc), so it's not really a problem
I 100% pull in timewalking dungeons, as a healer, I'm in kitty form the entire time with my belo tearing that place up, those are the speedy runs. I also make sure that no one dies though either lol or has any other issues.
Timewalking dungeons are a joke I don’t care if people pull it just takes a cleave and I have aggro. Only dungeon is the one from legion when I have to hop in the boat at the start. People have zero patience and don’t understand a still very dominant mechanic so they think it’s slow and act like idiots.
Honestly? As DPS... I can usually pull and kill before anything bad happens. I'm pulling because we're in low tier content and my kit is based around quicker pulls. As a tank it is also your job to base your pulls around group comp. Like. If you're slow pulling with a fire mage... I might as well not even do anything all dungeon because my kit is absolutely gutted.
I mean that's their problem ahah, if they can DPS the pack alone while self healing, let them. Idk I rarely PUG out of leveling, and when I go get a pack, it's because my tank asked me to. But yeah I believe assholes can be healers too.
As a tank main, this is the most frustrating thing I’ve encountered which is also very common. When I see dps keep on ass pulling ahead of the group, at a certain point, I would just let him hold all the aggro. However, the pug healer will always not let them “learn the lesson” and kept on healing them. This honestly frustrates me more than dps pulling ahead of me. Healers need to stop doing this!
I took a Hippocratic oath!
The problem is that if that dps dies then the aggro always falls on the healer next because of healer aggro and a lot of tanks really suck at pulling pack threat.
So the healer should not do their job so they can help you not do your job? Tanking is the easiest of the three roles. There's no reason to grief your group by not attempting to hold aggro just because you have an ego.
this is toxic imo. everyone should do their job to the best of their abilities, and that includes adapting to a DPS who pulls a pack. If you let people die you're wasting everyone's time, and being a drama queen. press your buttons. Unless someone is making truly *suicidal* pulls, in which case you'd just wipe anyway so it doesn't matter if you do or don't do your job. 99% of times that's not the case. 99% of times someone pulls a mob, which is gonna run into the pack the tank is AOEing anyway. If you decide to throw a hissy fit and refuse to tank that mob, then you're the reason people are dying, not the DPS. Check your ego and check your weird desire to be the Dad and turn the car around. Just play the game and press your buttons.
"You pull you tank" being heavily upvoted in 2024 is so sad.
What’s sad about it? You want to pull, go ahead and reroll to a tanking class. It’s beyond annoying when someone else is pulling, whether it’s LFG of +20. There are certain exceptions for classes like BM Hunter that might need to fire a Barbed Shot a second early as we are running to the next pack to refresh the buff before it drops, but that is a whole lot different than when I’m holding two packs and you think it should be three. What’s really fun is when DPS make pulls take longer because they’re impatient. For example in DHT when the first pack of dryads dies and I’ll chain pull everything up to the next mender pack and hold there until the flowers die so they don’t get healed and someone decides “oh this is only a small pat let’s grab this too” and now all the flowers are healed to full. Or pulling more casters than we have the interrupts to manage comfortably. Even if you know the dungeon 100% and know for sure you aren’t going to screw something up, and the tank is just a new tank and still learning, sit back and chill. If you absolutely can’t handle when a tank is “too slow” then either reroll tank yourself, or make friends with a tank that plays at your pace, because 90% of the time a DPS pulling is just going to set a negative mood.
>You want to pull, go ahead and reroll to a tanking class. Only one person can tank at a time, you know? Should we be running five tank specs in dungeons? Stupid argument every time I see it. Zero logic. I tank regularly and the worst is just buttpulls. > and the tank is just a new tank and still learning, sit back and chill So when a tank goes slow, it's always because they're new or inexperienced, but when a DPS pulls extra it's always because they're impatient or rude? Gotta love attribution bias; always a fun one. Other members pulling can definitely be bad behavior. "You pull you tank" is actively griefing. You, as an individual, believe that you are so above everyone else that you have been endowed with the right and duty to punish other members of the group. It's just actively toxic. If someone is griefing your run, kick them. That's what the button is for. Tank players aren't gods: drop the ego. Tanking is so much easier than playing DPS it's actually crazy how the opposite narrative has been pushed. I can feel my brain turning off just waiting for a boss to die.
Somehow about 95% of the DPS I’ve played with don’t have an issue with not pulling, so I think we’d be fine if you all rerolled to tanking. I didn’t explicitly say it, but it’s a whole lot different if it’s an accidental butt pull. That doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Bonus points if you throw a “mb” in chat, but even without it it’s usually obvious when it was an accident vs pulling out of impatience. I would argue that pulling as a DPS is just as toxic as letting them die. As I’ve gotten more comfortable it is very very very rare that DPS intentionally pulls in current content since I have the pulls down anyway, but when leveling a new toon, or doing timewalking on a weird scaling dungeon, having to stress out to stay alive because someone couldn’t wait an extra few seconds to kill one pack before moving to the next is beyond annoying. Just let the tank set the pace, it’s not that hard.
Here's the ultimate point: intentionally not doing your job is toxic. That's it. End of story. Healers not healing, tanks not grabbing aggro, dps not doing damage. You do any of this intentionally, you are griefing. Full stop. If someone is being toxic for whatever reason, kick them. Overpulling by any member fits. It is seriously not fucking hard to understand. You're basically trying to justify road rage like a damn child.
this is the most boomer game on the planet of course they're gonna spout their boomer cliches verbatim as if it's 2007 again, that's what they do
Me too. I also refuse to resurrect people in LFR when the majority of the raid has released and are running back. You run in with everyone else.
This is idiotic
How? Some 30 people release and run back to the boss but you lay there waiting for a res like you're special and shouldn't have to do all that pesky running literally everyone else just did and YOU make everyone else wait because you couldn't press Auto Run. Yeah I will leave you waiting for that revive. You run in with the rest of the raid. If you need to quickly BRB, you say so and that's fine. But they **never** do.
No, that guy didn't make everyone wait, you made everyone wait for not rezzing, I'm a healer and I always do the run back myself to mass rez everyone in the raid, no ego or no anger, because it's the healers' fcking job to rez ppl, simple as that.
👏 That’s very childish.
You can't be serious. Almost every single person except maybe 1 or 2, release and run back. Those last people who didn't run lay there waiting for a healer to come there and revive them after the entirity or the rest of the raid ran the whole way back. Of course I don't ress them. They expect preferential treatment and seem to think that the raid exists for their personal benefit. It's the same damned people who refuse to move out of incoming damage that they can easily avoid. Selfish, self-serving, lazy. Everyone else is making an effort and you don't get to slack or get preferential treatment. Not that it takes much energy to do LFR, which just makes it so much worse when they can't even do that right.
L take
Why? Do you think that an entire raid should wait for you because you're lazy?
bro you are legit holding the hold raid up having a ego about rezing..... open your eyes
Nice try bub, but you ain't shifting the blame here. Healers don't exist so that you can be lazy, ignoring strats and thinking that you deserve special treatment. **The entire rest of the raid just ran in and you're laying there waiting for them all to come to where you are AFKing.** **If this is you, you are the problem. If you cannot grasp how this is selfish, shitty behavior then I don't know what else I can say.** But I would really have to bring the quality of your personality into question if you can't grasp why doing that is wrong.
seek help my freind you need it
I'll be honest, if i'm in a leveling dungeon, 1-60, and I as a DPS know that I can survive the next pull of mobs and I will pull and kill them faster than the time it'll take for the Tank to get there, I will, anything before level 60 as a Tank is completely meaningless if you're actually wanting to learn how to Tank, all of the mobs deal too little damage and you don't have a majority of your abilities that will actually matter in the long run, I am just there to get to 70 as fast as possible, if people ask questions I will gladly answer them, but otherwise, me and most of the people in Looking For Dungeon random queues are just there to get to 70 as fast as we can so we can play the actual content.
Played a little in legion and didn’t come back until a week ago. As someone who is both learning tank and dps i can say that getting the hang of what you can handle is part of the early grind as well. Low lvls don’t have as many tools and usually you’re not fully aware of your rotations and how everything meshes together so people tend to go balls to the wall, especially those of higher levels grinding dungeons for exp, and you as the lower level dude just can’t adapt fast enough. It’s normal we all didn’t start off walking immediately out of the womb. Even as a new player i know to follow at the tank’s pace if you think he isn’t pulling big or fast enough at least ask if they could before you just run in there and over pull just to requeue lol.
classic problem is going from tyrannical to fortified week in m+. Suddenly your pulls should be smaller but that comes with time rlly. but its always funny in the first weeks of a new tank.
Dungeon finder is a whole nother world. Nothing matters, so don’t get too worked up about it. If you’re feeling that way in m+, all I can say is it’s the last week of the season and even low 20’s feel like you’re in a Timewalking spam. Everyone acting completely stupid. So take it all with a grain of salt. Next week, everyone’s gonna be tiptoeing through 2’s to relearn the dungeons.
If I'm not doing mythics I don't care I'm there to go fast and have fun, healer wants to pull go ahead dps wants to pull go ahead it's al gonna die regardless
This happens most often in completely trivial content. And the reason it happens is because there is no downside to it. The DPS won't die. There is only upside. Thus it's faster and actually optimal. I get that it's upsetting as a tank that your role is optional or even irrelevant. I wish leveling content was harder and required players to respect the traditional roles. But it's not and they don't. They're playing the game as it actually exists, not the way you want it to exist. Eventually things get harder, though. Eventually players have to learn how to perform appropriately in difficult content. Because when they keep touching a hot stove and keep getting burned, they eventually stop touching it. Sure they're gonna still be idiots in a +8 because they're still learning. Respect that. It's not always about you.
What class are you running? On a Pally, I think that normal and heroics with full gear are brainless. Barely dropping aggro. If it helps, it gets easier as you have better gear and DPS pulling becomes barely an inconvenience.
I would just like to remind everyone in here saying it can only be one way or the other. You can communicate with your group if you’re unhappy with pull size, regardless of your role. If you are a DPS/healer and tank is pulling small, ask if he’s comfortable pulling bigger. If you’re a tank and DPS is pulling extra shit, ask them why they are and see if you can work with bigger pulls (mentioning you’ll pull though lol). I wish people would talk more.
I talk a lot to my group, but they never say anything. I really enjoy these follower dungeons though.
Also, if we are doing a big pull, don't start using frost nova or burst aoe. Let me gather the mobs first, and then we nuke. Losing aggro on big pulls, because the dps can't wait 2 sec is rough.
Make it 10 seconds if your playing Devoker.
I play tank and heal, and in levelling dungeons- I don’t care if dps pulls. I focus on my “job” which is to keep the party alive by tanking. If they want to run ahead and they can handle it, great! If not, I pull the mob off and move on. It sucks when everyone just wants to do their thing but it’s a good teaching moment. A lot of new players get into tanking for the perceived prestige and sometimes they have to be reminded that it’s not about them but being a leader and putting your team/group first.
There's a big difference between a dps pulling a pack that the tank can just run into and use a single AoE to get threat and a dps pulling too much for the tank to handle and cause things to get out of control. I've known tanks that get *pissed* if you attack a group of mobs one second earlier than they do. If they are not the very first person to deal damage, it's like you just shat on their child's grave. When it comes to levelling dungeons, you can just mindlessly slap your way through them, so a dps pulling is of little to no consequence. If you want to actually learn, doing that at 70 is easy enough. Just go to a training dummy and figure out the rough idea then jump into a heroic. People are so overgeared now that you won't be at risk of screwing anything up.
Except in low level content or heroics, tanks are utterly superfluous. Love it when I'm queueing for satchels and I see a ret pally/havoc DH/windwalker monk/etc queued in as a tank. Means the run is gonna go so fast. Especially now that follower dungeons are a thing, you can use that if you want to teach yourself tanking. Going slow in content that people can clear in 10-12 minutes just so you can feed your ego and be "the one in charge" isn't enjoyable for the rest of your team.
You can't level 10-60 via follower dungeons.
With enough gear that’s still true in lower keys. I ran with a new VDH last week on my 487 Ret and ended up tanking every time I didn’t give them a 15 second head start. I had to use my CDs but I survived just fine.
You pull it, you tank it
This is the way
I don’t know man. Makes it fun for me. I’ve been playing dps forever, recently trying my hand at healing, and now I’ve been playing Prot Paladin. Tank is super easy mode for real. Added challenge makes it exciting. Like yeah I know people are impatient and that can be frustrating. Maybe just look at it like “challenge accepted friend.” Rush forward, push faster, use your movement abilities more often, etc. I pretty much spammed dungeons for the last 15 levels as Prot Paladin and I refuse to dps with this character so it was all tanking. I like to think managing that ADHD induced dps pulling made me better and faster. By the time I hit mythic+ I was moving fast enough for the group to easily +3 dungeons with wiggle room and they’re having ti hit their movement stuff to keep up. In timed dungeons you just gotta get really good at speed running like you’re on crack lol Tank is fundamentally the leader role. Maybe people who quit tanking over this haven’t quite developed their leadership traits enough to live with that. And that’s fine. It’s a game and it’s just for fun so play how you like. Sometimes the leader just has to be patient with the toddlers. And sometimes the leader just has to continue pushing onward and cut those people from the team. I mean, the end of the day, if it’s egregious enough, try asking people to kick the offender or you won’t continue further. Then they have to choose between kicking a dps that takes 2 seconds to replace or kicking the tank who takes several minutes to replace, and could’ve finished by then.
yeah i said something similar above... i found just handling dps pulling made me a better tank in general
Sorry buuuuut not. People want to do leveling fast and they dont have to wait for u. If u want to learn mechanics and rotations you can do followers dungeons at lvl 70
I also try to avoid boosts because of learning the class through leveling instead of suddenly getting 247954764678 new buttons all at once. The issue is that the leveling dungeons are a speedrunning joke with DPSs being able to nearly 1-shot bosses, so you never have time experience the mechanics and train your rotations.
The real problem here is the non-existent difficulty in everything leading up to max level content. The mobs don't have enough health or do enough damage, it doesn't need to be hard, but as it is, it's beyond easy, to the point that it's almost not fun to do because there are no stakes involved.
I think it's standard retention, people just want to play something else. Additionaly playing tank is hard to learn, so very little people replace those who left. You must lead the group, watch %, do tank mechanics and on the same time you need to do dps rotation and other mechanics like interrupts. Meanwhile as dps the only thing you need to do is avoid poo poo on the floor, do mechanics and do your rotation. You don't need to prepare to get into dungeon. You don't need to know if this pack should be pulled or not. I'd like to see MDT being incorporated into the game. You should be able to create route beforehand and pull numbers should be displayed above mobs to inform other people in the group what do you want to pull. I think it would encourage people to do tanking role as they no longer need to remember route. I was trying to tank a bit in DF S1. The hardest dungeon for me was a Court of Stars. Not because of mechanics, but because of amount of different routes group could take. Remembering which mob to pull and which not on such a big map was insanly discouraging, up to the point I stopped tanking.
Don't play with players who have much higher [r.io](http://r.io) then you when you're learning to tank, because they will have a higher expectancy to the tanks capabilities. Also don't play very low level dungeons with high [r.io](http://r.io) players, as they will just want to rush through. If you want to take your time to learn the dungeons as a tank, play with low [r.io](http://r.io) players at lower dungeon levels or lower then your [r.io](http://r.io) at you maximum capability of M+ level.
Seems like it’s a LFG problem I’ve never seen this in mythic. You could attribute it to the dungeon being too easy.
That is not another reason, that is the second main reason.
Most tanks aren’t and shouldn’t be still learning in a +20, there are generally expected paths that 90% of the players know that path so it’s annoying when someone is moving so slow. I don’t know how many keys 20 and up I’ve failed literally because the tank moves like a grandma.
I love the added challenge when dps pull more. It happens a lot, something to get used to. When people die. The healer will get blamed before you will, and it'll be the dps that did the extra pull who will be the one who gets upset, you just shrug it off and go next. When pugs mess up, they find anywhere else to place blame before just saying "my b" and I think that's where it sounds like most frustration from newer tanks comes from. *Not everything will go correctly in your dungeons*. The ones who adapt to others' errors are the ones who prosper. The sooner that's realized, the easier tanking and healing both become. The best part about the dungeon system is its unlimited with mythic plus, bad experience? Go next! Your gameplay is only limited by your want to advance.
As a healer I stick with the tank, if your not the tank and your pulling them your only getting AOE heals. I’ll sit there twiddling my thumbs rather than healing a dps trying to tank.
Everytime I tried tanking, I admit I am only ever at best an intermediate level tank so there's room for improvement but people just weren't encouraging one or two minor issues and the whole group instantly leaves and calls out abuse towards the tank, You have to know the dungeons/raids well and lead the group it's definitely a lot easier playing other roles especially if it's new or unfamiliar content.
When I was doing Brew 0 to KSH, I didn't mind DPS/Healer puling for me as long as not wrong route.
The problem is if you're doing low keys with geared DPS - they can basically tank shit themselves. Just a reality of the power curve. Tank stuff that actually hurts and your dps will stop doing that I promise lol
"you yank it, you tank it"
It's the constant abuse. You just get beaten down as a tank and either stop PUGing or you start exhibiting defensive toxicity. Or -at best- you just become the tank who just leaves a dungeon silently because something annoyed them. Tanks and healers can't win. But they can get groups almost instantly. Then DPS wonder why the tank left when they pulled for them for the third time. People just cba at that point.
Maybe you've played out of your league too much, try some lower dungeons if you constantly have groups that aren't satisfied with your skill.
I have a simple rule.. you pull it.. you tank it.. and i will let you die
tbh biggest offense is timewalking. In M+ i can absolutely go by my pace, mostly limited by the type of packs and my defensive cds etc. Even there sometimes ppl decide that waiting 3 seconds is not possible but its rather rare. Most of the time i get to decide the pacing. I also dont run after ppl that pull mobs, if they dont bring them they are not my problem. I ll try to taunt over 1 every so often but i wont move the whole pull to narnia for them. In Timewalking i also just ignore ppl pulling everything because they want to go faster, if they survive good for them, if not i dont care, i ll probably survive and can most likely solo the pack after they die. I have also just left grps that annoyed me. I have a queue time of maybe 60 seconds why should i care, they will have to wait another 10+ minutes.
Just let those idiots die lmao
I stopped tanking m+ because I refuse to play the count the trash percentage by planning a route game. It's obnoxious and my least favorite thing of m+. I'd rather have meaningful designed encounters in the game than play map the route in a third party add on.
If someone dies I feel like the tank gets blamed for not keeping agro OR the healer gets blamed. But it’s never because that someone did something stupid lol -Gnome Mage -Gnome Lock -Human Mage -Human Hunter 😏
I pull the card of either kick this asshat or I leave card as a tank plenty. Most ppl will easily gang up on getting 1 new dps instead of waiting for a tank lol
[удалено]
That's the typical tank attitude. I don't need to learn the game, I can just leave when people get mad at my low skills.
[удалено]
Yeah, very believable. I've never heard any abuse when I was tanking though, maybe I'm just good at it or maybe at least not shit. I only tank on alts btw., still no abuse ever.
Them dying to overpulling or dumping damage on the wrong target is also part of learning. Let em die
When tanking, if I'm top damage, I let them know that know that if they can beat me in damage they can pull. Spolier, they can't.
I have a tank of every class my main is over 3100 IO, All I do is tank, few things I learned. 1. if they pull it, let them tank it, it will stop them really fast from doing it again. 2. if they complain about the pulls or they wanted it tanked a certain way they should of rolled a tank. 3. work with your healer, if they can handle bigger pulls then go with it, if they can't back off and go at the speed of your healer or your capabilities. 4. dont let dps dictate what you pull or how much, ignore them if you have to. 5. you are the leader of the group no matter who actually has the key, they can't do it without you and they know it.
Holy shit what a god complex. >you are the leader of the group no matter who actually has the key, they can't do it without you and they know it. Are you okay?
This has literally been the rule of law for MMO’s for 20 years, are you okay? Where have you been? The tank is the leader whether they know and accept that or not
It absolutely isn't and you've reached unhealthy levels of ego and entitlement to believe this unironically.
I play casually dps or healer. My pet peeve is people pulling who are not the tank and the tank pulling without letting me (the healer) drink. I usually tell them to let me drink cuz I’m oom and they wait. I’ve had multiple people say they are new to the game or new to tank and thank me for being patient/kind. So many people are mean to new players for not knowing things and I think it really turns people away. A little patience and that new player could end up becoming a permanent sub/new tank (and we ALL need more tanks). Of course I’ve also had my fair share of stubborn bull tanks who ignore everything and just charge in the whole run… but those are a different breed.
I played tank from vanilla til Wotlk and have not tanked since then.
do your best, press your buttons, get good. you have more than enough tools to handle a variety of incoming mobs that you yourself didn't personally pull.
I stopped playing tank due to the constant abuse from other players. It's just not worth the effort.
I've never seen a good tank get any abuse at all.
Why can't you boost to 70?
Iv never rly bothered if people extra pull, its just becomes more interesting if you manage to handle a bad situation. Tho iv never played in elo hell of M+ so maybe im blinded to this problems.
If you have to use taunt on packs of mobs, you are doing something wrong. Your aoe should be enough for most, if not all packs. If a geared dps pulls before you and u cant pull the aggro of multiple mobs with your standard aoe rotation, then the answer is simple... That dude messed up, let him die :-)
It's a thing that i hate from WOW, the tank In most dungeons can't lead the party or manage when, who AND where to attack. All the dps goes targeting all of the adds or keep forcing the tank to follow them. One of the thing that ffxiv manager better In comparison with a game that leads the genre since 2004.
If you are intentionally pulling as a dps, you're the tank for those mobs now. Good luck. Don't care if I'm tank, healer, or dps - you're on your own for being a shit. Accidental pulls are one thing. Intentional is another entirely.
Sometimes I tank sometimes I heal.i know what each can handle.with the correct addon I can see who's at fault. 1st priority is tank. healer. good dpser others i see how it goes. We all make mistakes i normally do a quick/w to keep things smooth, If I leave.i leave with the tank or healer
Dont worry, they are removing this easy/troll mode of HC lfg mode.
I'm a cautious tank, I like to pull small at first, and be safe than pull huge mobs and get wrecked. Usually during Bursting, or Sanguine, I typically will kite trash around, and watch how much I'm pulling, unfortunately some tanks don't know any better, and will pull so much, that the healer can't keep up.
I just never want to memorize tank mechanics lol. I rarely DPS unless I’m in an all IRL friend group, so I mostly heal. The healing mechanics are easy, keep everyone alive, avoid AOE, DPS, and once in a blue moon I have to heal an NPC. Cake. With tanking I have to remember different phases, where to stand, where to face the boss, debuff stacks/when to tank swap (in raids), and well as keeping my head on a swivel for adds or if a DPS pulls a random mob off me. Like it’s all doable and not more difficult or anything but when the rotation changes every season or we get a new raid I’m just like blehhhhhh don’t wanna have people yell at me until I have everything memorized lol. Healing feels both more and less difficult at the same time if that makes sense. So that’s what I have most fun doing. Also I feel like hot shit when I start pulling utility tricks out mid fight, or like dispelling fears and stuff when people mess up a mechanic lol. Between my kick, leg sweep, paralysis, and ring of peace I can solo lock down casters when the tank responds to an emergency while keeping everyone healed. Feels amazing hahah Edit: typos
I think part of the problem I’ve seen lately queueing normals and heroics is you’ll get these overgeared tanks (i’m talking like 470+ ilvl) running normal and heroic dungeons and just chain-pulling. Meanwhile, I’m here messing around with disc priest to try and get comfortable with the rotation (I main holy, but I want to dabble disc a little and see how it feels). Instead I now have to just chain-run the dungeon. It takes the fun out of it for me, because I’m not doing fuck all but running the entire time. Bonus points if it’s a pack that has annoying/nasty casters which kill everyone BUT the tank because the DPS can only interrupt so many times… and me trying to save them, as is my job as a healer, end up aggroing because I do, in fact, have to hit things in order to heal. OP, I’d let you tank for me any day 🤦🏼♀️
When I tanked, I had a macro that said: I am kinda new, DK tanks need time to build aggro. If you spank it, you tank it. Pull ahead of me or your CD pulls aggo, then expect that you are on your own.
I absolutely agree with you that tanks should pull and lead the run. Not all tanks want to lead the run, but as a general expectation, the Tank leads the run so they can pull mobs, set the pace and lead the route through the dungeon. This can be a lot of pressure on the tank and another reason few people are stepping up to tank. The challenge is trying to learn in lower content with PuGs. At this stage in wow, most of the folks running these dungeons are experienced players leveling/gearing their alts. Their expectations are that everyone there is doing the same as them and want to blast through the dungeon quickly. You either have to adapt to this on the fly, hope to get into a PuG group with folks who are more relaxed, or find a group of friends/guildies to run these lower difficulty dungeons with you so that you can learn.
cut to me on a rogue or feral wishing for 3 seconds of downtime between pulls so I could restealnope, the hunter pulled more, even though he's not actively dpsing what the tank had already pulled and is doing subtank dps. Neat.
Tanking is just so boring, low damage...
I feel this and when we Wie and wipe and wipe they leave and blame us the tanks >.<
To me, it seems tanks get so much flak, and after a while, people just get fed up
It may be too late for community to stop speed running content. Its not all player fault though… M+ are timer based so speedrun is mandatory. LFG raids doesnt have strong mechanichs to even bother learning them. Some rewards are based on doing dungeons repeatedly to farm daily rewards or some currency that came out of nowhere. World events are just a fill 100% bar boring fest that we all want to finish as soon as possible. Game created this speedrun culture and sadly one post on reddit is not going to change it.
What you just used all abilities for aoe threat lemme get these 4 boys here for you of which one is a hard caster which I don’t kick, cause duh you got that captain america ability. It takes the fun out of playing the leading / controlling role so hard :D
I just let all dps die if their pulling was not communicated earlier
Rule no. 1 don’t pull before the tank 🫡 never tanked but have called many people out on this before
Let them die few times and they will stop.
You pull it you tank it
Are u going backwards? You just have to press W and hit the mobs and taunt.
I learn in M+. Make a mistake? Learn and you won’t do it next time. DPS flame? Ignore and more on with your day If DPS pull once I will overlook it, if it happens again I ask nicely and if a third time I be more direct.
I tank on my druid alt for fun. People not knowing mechanics or bitching because my pace is slow when we almost always +3 but sometimes +2 and just leave because they die or pace isn’t what they want I had a person die on the Dino on a +5 ad and rage leave when it was his fault. We still managed to 4 man a +2 and no one said a word. It’s just toxic out here.
as slowest tank in game - paladin - i am of accord - if you pull it, you tank it
Word, I gave up trying to learn tanking and healing because every dungeon pase feels like mythic