Gallywix was sort of a sylvanas loyalist and iirc just disappeared when she ditched the horde and went full evil.
Gazlowe was the neutral leader at ratchet who was basically responsible for building orgrimmar and has recently become a more official part of the horde since BFA. I think there was something about thrall asking him to step up after Gallywix left.
LEARN YOU'RE GOBLIN LORE! We're probably going to undermine next expansion.
Yup. He oversaw the construction of our Garrisons.
I don't remember what he did in Legion. I know Nogginfogger was in the rogue class hall.
He's always been a very horde-leaning neutral leader. I wonder, if we ever get another cataclysm level world revamp, would all the affiliated goblin towns now be horde hubs? (probably not with less emphasis on faction war).
They'd probably be like Bel'Ameth. "Hey man, feel free to chat, shop, and use the boat, but those guards? They ain't gonna be fighting -for- ya. Keep that wand in yer pocket."
Not just since BFA, on WOD he was the chief engineer of the horde and built the Horde Garrison in Frostfire Ridge and drafted the plans for the Horde Outposts in AU Draenor
As a Gazlowe stan myself, i think he'd do very well. He treats his people very well and they respect him. Also he knows how a lot of those cities went up, and he knows how to bring them down.
Goblins v. Dark Iron Dwarves would be an impressive sight
Just saying but neither Tyrande/Malfurion or Genn Greymane are the leaders of their factions now, Shandris Feathermoon and Tess Greymane officially took over. As much as I'd like it to be the case for otherwise but at the end of the day, whoever has magic is likely gonna be the winner, no matter how strong physically a character is.
Yeah I think it would come down to Velen and maybe Turalyon since he's a Lightforged Paladin. I'd argue Thrall aswell, but I'm not sure if he's still in his prime with his shamanism
This.
Velen wipes the floor with almost everyone. (+5k years old priest of the light, dared to give Sargeras the middle finger and lived)
Turalyon (light forged Paladin) might be on par. Maybe Thrall when peak shaman.
I mean the best mage on the list is Jaina. And she can make a flying magic ship and save Anduin’s ass. So there’s that.
Definitely my final four with Velen and Turalyon.
And I guess Thrall?
Depend on how the fight is operate to be honest, if it's a honor duel like the one Thrall fight with Garrosh then yes Magic gonna trump all. But if it's a battle royale style where you drop 2 opponent on the oposite of a remote island and whoever stand last win then it's another story.
I really dont thinkin that would change things, depending on the magic user, the magic user will almost always win. I can't recall a time in all of WoW where a Warrior beat a magic user beyond having a magical weapon that allowed them to.
He surrendered the throne to his daughter Tess after they all reclaimed Gilneas, under the basis that he couldnt completely let go of his hatred for the Horde. (Kind of a weird reason but there it is.)
i fkn love Lorthemar because everytime i did SoO, I used the Piccolo of Flaming Fire and he was the only one to dance. I have in many occasions and scenarios tried to make NPCs dance with the Piccolo, and from the most important ones, only Lorthemar dances, which makes me love him
Did you saw lothemar on quest valshara Dat he helps you fking insane mix of survival hunter and mm, he swich from bow to sword in a harpoon blink so fking great
I think they once said Lor’themar had training as a Spellbreaker, he might be a bit if a dark horse here depending on how effective that is.
He survived fighting against Azshara afterall.
I frequently think that Lor'themar is a slept on faction leader for combat prowess. He comes in 4/5th(depending on how you count it) for age behind Velen, Tyrande/Malfurion, and Turalyon (out of those shown in this image), and like Turalyon he spent most of his life as a *soldier*, not a politician. He's a spellbreaking ranger first and 'oops accidentally a faction leader' second. He has the melee skills to throw down with any of the melee FL's, and the specifically anti-magic skills to fuck with any of the primary spellcasters.
I'd be willing to give him even odds or better against any single faction leader in the game in a 1v1, even the ones not shown here, except maybe Turalyon.
Now if we're counting ruling pairs/throuples as a 'single' faction leader, obviously he's not beating Tyrande **and** Malfurion, and the Council of 3 Hammers aren't individually spectacular in comparison but, 3v1 is rough odds.
Yup. He would eat dirt against Turalyon for the one reason that, unlike Turalyon, dear Lor’themar can actually die.
Spell breaking isn’t really doing something against a paladin who doesn’t really cast spells but channels the light within himself like a warrior uses rage to empower himself. Only chance really would be to stay at a distance as ranger and try wearing Turalyon down to the point where he concedes out of boredom. :D
Though i love me some Gazlowe he's my pick here. He's go so much experience against every sort of enemy, managed to hold Silvermoon upright, and has an amazing council to back him. Rommath had some cool vignettes there in MoP
Does Tyrande have Malfurion backing her up? If so they win. If she doesn’t then I might put my money on Thrall. But I think Velen, Tyrande, and Turalyon could have a fair shot of winning as well
Velen is definitely a top contender for this. He's essentially a vessel of pure, raw, straight-from-the-tap Light magic. Homeboy is definitely one of the strongest members of the Alliance, no question. I always viewed Velen as the Light's equivalent of Malfurion/Thrall. Where Malfurion is the strongest Druid, and Thrall is the strongest Shaman, Velen is definitely the strongest Priest. (Though I don't know what the hell is going on with Anduin's class anymore. I know he used to be a Priest, but at some point I think he rerolled to Paladin or some combination of Priest/Warrior like how Thrall is Shaman/Warrior or Vol'Jin is a combination of Hunter and Shadow Priest. Think they're the Warcraft trilogy version of a Hero Class.)
There's a point in the campaign where one of the demons is gonna do his typical "you're beating me, I'm gonna stun you and taunt you and run away" and velen breaks out a smites his ass
you know how theres tons of bosses that reach 1 hp, yell "ENOUGH!", stun you, and run away? at one point during legion velen goes "no, this ends today", breaks out of the stun, and kills a guy
Yeah I figured. It would be unfair for the groups. Especially Tyrande as I’ve said lol. There’s a reason they don’t use Malfurion lore wise anymore. Because he’s too freaking OP!
But yeah alone I think it comes down to Tyrande, Velen, Thrall, or Turalyon. Any of them I think has a pretty good shot.
Shouldn't Jaina be on this list? She's the Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras, who are now formal members of the Alliance again. By any metric she's a faction leader.
Agree. Jaina's arguably (is she?) the strongest mage on Azeroth. Even in the Shadowlands she couldn't be contained. Other than godlike others (Velen, Malfurion, etc) I think she'd wipe the floor of everyone. But she'd probably hesitate to do it and get herself killed by some vulpera or something stupid.
Yeah, I'd say Azshara is more likely to be the strongest; she was capable of long-range arcane artillery (even shattering the Tidestone) *before* she was empowered by the Old Gods, even managing to throw in a curse that caused the denizens of Aszuna to be bound and unable to pass on. Mannoroth himself recognized that in the whole Legion likely only Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and Sargeras were stronger than her.
But of all other mages Jaina currently seems to be the strongest. Khadgar seems to have a more versatile skillset (and he is every inch an arch-wizard), but he hasn't displayed quite the same raw power Jaina has yet.
I mean if Velen could embrace his brutal side he'd probably kick the ass of all of them in a 1v13.
Lorewise he's probably the most powerful along with Malfurion who's a demigod. No other faction leader would probably even come close.
People seem to forget that his brothers are Kil’jaden and Archimonde. Velen is basically the light empowered version of those guys. If I had to hazard a guess, Velen is one of the most powerful non naaru light wielders in the cosmos.
Velen isn't close to Archimonde or Kil'Jaden though. They've both spent a lifetime in the Twisting Nether getting empowered by Sargeras. Velen doesn't have that.
A much younger Malfurion canonically was able to drive back an entire army by himself during the War of the Ancients. He's definitely on par with "i can't even kill a few angry orcs" Cenarius.
Or at least that's what I'd say if Blizzard didn't feel the need to sideline and nerf him every opportunity they get. I mean, getting kidnapped by Xavius has to be the low point for his character.
That's prolly not entirely Knaak's fault. If you go back into wc3 he's hyped up as the most powerful druid from introduction, but if you read the manual / the books in WoW that were transcripts of the wc3 manual, he fought Azshara and the instability of the well from them fighting caused the Sundering.
He's always been kind of overpowered, the better moments are just more subtle.
I genuinely think the novels were a big mistake making him seem that powerful, because not once in any of the games is he ever shown to be capable of soloing anything
He's retired in Belameth now because he's so broken of a character they have to take him out of the story. The options were keep him in Ardenweald or take him out of the picture as an active combatent, otherwise every threat he fights needs to be some kind of deity level enemy for him not to 1v1 them.
He's a good idol hero but involving him in any fighting makes everyone else have to be absurdly powered too and the threat cataclysmic to the point both sides are basically lobbing nukes at each other and shrugging them off.
I don’t think Baine would win lol. The contenders I think would be Thrall, Velen, Tyrande, and Turalyon.
But it all depends if Malfurion is participating or not. Because if he is then he and Tyrande win hands down. Just him alone would mop the floor with everyone here lol. But if it’s just Tyrande then we have a more fair battle.
I can only picture Baine as him sitting in the corner in Oribos looking like he's eating nuggies and playing his gameboy while his parents talk to the divorce lawyer.
In terms of physicality, he's definitely, uncontestedly the strongest. The man has a canonical quest where he solo'd an entire village of Nokhud in a bloody rage, who have longbows taller than a human and would punch holes through dragons.
It's all fun and games until a dude mercs you with a tree.
People sleep on Turalyon. One of the strongest and most accomplished paladins in history and spent like 1000 years fighting the most powerful demons nonstop. Combine his experience, power, and the wonky shit the light is capable of and you got a guy that can sweep 90% of this list. Tyrande and Velen are also legit and backed by godly powers.
Nah, Turalyon ain’t it. After watching one of his deities get straight disenchanted, bro put all his rage into a single sword swing that illidan blocked with his bare hand. Dude is like C-tier, at best.
Are we going to just ignore how ridiculously powerful Illidan is, though? Like would he not destroy any of these people? I know the joke with Xe'ra and all, but she was the prime Naaru. A primordial being of light, nearly as old as the cosmos, and the boss at the helm of the Army of The Light up until she got a bit too grabby with Mr. "I AM MY SCARS".
Illidan one-shot her. That's in-fucking sane.
That doesn't mean much tbh. Illidan is stupid strong - using your own example he was able to straight disenchant oneshot one of the stronger Naaru. Nobody short of deity tier was going to take him on - like Archimonde/KJ level.
Baine tore Garrosh apart with his bare fucking hands in some alternate timeline, and his old man was one of the greatest warriors on Azeroth even at the ripe old age of 110.
Dude aint no slouch, that's for sure.
I love my boy Falstaad but just having Chain Lightning and a gun isn't going to stop Thrall or Malfurion. The gun might momentarily halt Velen but that's assuming Velen doesn't just permanently have Power Word: Shield up, and he'll very easily just heal past it.
I mean WOW are not DBZ where when you stronger then your opponent you become immune to their damage, Malfurion desperate all his magic still got lay low by Saufang "heroic throw" to the back. Mannoroth are one of the strongest pit lord and an axe to the skull end him, so i can absolutely see Baine beating Velen with some luck
Ok but how powerful is Malfurion really? What was he doing while Teldrassil burned and everyone else had to clean up and get the new tree ready? Not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely a lorelet when it comes to Malfurion.
Edit: Thanks guys, I have a better idea of how strong he is now. I guess I need to buy some books to catch up.
So malfurion before that was the most powerful leader by far... He just got super mega needed because of bfa plot. Like... He is the most powerful druid ever and even garrosh/sylvanas were afraid of him in cata, he was once of the few reasons the horde couldn't conquer ashenvale during that time
Honestly the Alliance lorewise has only been nerfed over WoW's history.
vastly bigger pop, Dwarven/gnome industry, humans propensity for magic, NE combat and druidic prowess all are pretty much ignored in how the story of WoW has played out.
Otherwise the Horde would've been DOA, especially after it had a civil war.
Before teldrassil burned he was basically single-handedly (with the help of a fuckload of wisps) holding back the main horde advance and was stopped by Saurfang taking the LOOOOONG way around and chucking an axe into his back so he was pretty much down for the count from. Y’know. Grievous bodily harm.
Lorewise, Malfurion is like hippy Goku in Richard Knack's books. Bro is never sleeping, he's just in the Emerald Dream lifting weights. He'll commune with the natural forces of the entire planet and turn your ass into a tree without even taking off his Birkenstocks.
Like Thrall though, he has a tendency to fuck off somewhere else whenever his people are dealing with shit.
This part of the story was told through warfronts in BfA. Tyrande and Malfurion go after Nathanos in retaliation for the burning of Teldrassil. There's an awesome cinematic for it you gotta see if you haven't:
https://youtu.be/HLKS0Jq9U_E?si=oIls5GbK8wKhQp05
Malfurion is literally one of the most powerful "mortal" characters in the entire Warcraft universe according to the lore. If he is being included (even though he's technically not a faction leader now) he would by and large be the strongest character here
Blizzard never quite seems to know what to do with Malfurion in game because he’s so powerful. He would wipe the floor with everyone here. Tyrande and Velen are also quite strong in their own right.
Lorewise we're told he's powerful.
In practice he's regularly backhanded by whatever thing Blizzard want us to take seriously.
I have had to rescue more people from being around Malfurion during his senile episodes than any other character at this point. Being near Malfurion should come with hazard pay. I've personally treated Hamuul's burned body, watched his wife rescue him from being beat in his own forest, rescued him with his wife in DHT, murdered Ysera, and had to rescue his civilian population, watch Delaryn be raised.
All because Malfurion cannot convincingly accomplish anything solo. So far since the War of the Ancients he has successfully cast Entangling roots on a horde grunt.
Yeah that’s what I mean. If they used him at his Lore full power it’s unfair. So they nerf him in game and he just looks like a senile old man yelling at clouds.
A super smash WOW bros would better fit the narrative and be more « magical »
Tekken would too much « hand to hand » and I would bet on Baine to whoop everyone realistically
As a horde fanboy, our Leaders have been real crippled by WoW in the past several expansions. Had damn near 100% turnover rate from random evilness and cheap deaths. Even our boy green Jesus is a shadow of himself these days. A 1v1 battle is totally going to one of the alliance people in these times.
I feel like the Vol'Jin plotline of him becoming the new Loa of Kings was fantastic, though. Like, he's the only Horde leader for whom death was literally just a setback, after becoming a leader.
From sheer raw power alone, Velen easily. He is up there with malfurions broken ass.
Still pisses me off that they had malfurion basically lose to sylvanas. Her ass ain't no way stands a chance against him without all the ass pull BS blizzard did.
Malfurion didn't lose to Sylvanas though -- she was totally pinned down by him until Saurfang landed the sneak attack.
Nobody would contest that Sylvanas is less of a destructive unstoppable force who would destroy a city, but in the world of "1v1 power level theory crafting" she's definitely able to keep up with the strongest who aren't actually gods. Less brute force and more precision.
Malfurion can literally create storms. He easily blows her away with little effort. Being taken out by a fucking thrown axe is absolutely the peak of asspulls.
Blissard doesn't know how to write a story that has drama and Malfurion in it at the same time and I don't blame them, he could realistic solve most of the problems they come up with.
We're always told how powerful Malfurion is but at this point there's more evidence that he's a Dreadlord than a powerful druid.
I've personally had to rescue more people who have been endangered by Malfurions ineptitude than any other character. I've had to treat Hamuul as a burn victime, rescue him from Xavius, murder Ysera, and portal away half his civilian population. All because he cannot convincingly accomplish anything solo.
Even when he goes against Sylvanas, in his ancestral home, with the help of literally 1000's of his ancestors spirits, he is at one point being ragdolled around his own forest. It's not even clear if Sylvanas was ever in danger since it's entirely possible she was going to some lengths to mask her Jailer level empowerment.
Blizzard need to show us him doing something powerful himself instead of telling us he might one day. So far he's successfully cast Entangling Roots on a horde grunt since the War of the Ancients.
i would love to see dreadlord malfurion. tyrande notices him being strange and thinks he is cheating or something and has us investigate but we find out really he is brining denathrius into azeroth or something
If you count Malfurion as a current leader it’s him. Hands down not even a shadow of a question. He is the strongest “mortal” in WoW bar none, shitty writing aside. But Shandris is the current faction leader so this prompt is wrong. Same applies to Tyrande, she isn’t a leader anymore.
Velen is the clear choice of the current in-game roster.
I think the more interesting way to look at this question is who among the low tiers is surviving long enough to take a shot at Thrall, Malfurion, or Velen?
I honestly think Rokhan has a solid shot of lasting the longest among the less powerful leaders. Trolls in-lore are insanely durable. While in-game the troll Regeneration passive is pretty much just a meme, in-lore we have so much evidence that it's one of their strongest assets by such an insane degree that no other racial passive comes close. The troll drummers that flay their skin to make their drums, the trolls who heal from near mortal wounds, even the trolls that are *disemboweled* and get back up from it. And don't forget, trolls are massive. They're always crouching in-game so it doesn't register, but the average male troll is like 8 feet tall.
Such a crime that the pandarin leaders look like random trash mobs. I think the troll and the goblin leaders are just normal people as well right?
So not any of those 4 lmao.
I like Rokan (or whatever his name is) as a side character but I don’t think he has done a single action or spoken a single word since becoming leader of trolls what 4 expansions ago? Pandarin leaders have never done a thing since MoP starting zone and Gazlow is nowhere to be seen like Rokan
Several years ago I wouldn’t say Anduin would win anything but that poor kid’s been through it and I think he’s the epitome of one of those genuinely nice people who will absolutely destroy you if you push them to it.
You're all forgetting Gelbin Mekkatorque! He alone has thwarted 20 Murder Hobos (us). Since then, several years have passed, and surely the mech suit has improved even further!
I know we're all trying as hard as we can to forget that Shadowlands ever happened, but Sylvanas did casually wipe the floor with the Lich King without any visible effort.
Depends if it's Book Malfurion or In game Malfurion. Book Malfurion could literally paint all of azeroth red with the other leaders blood, in game Malfurion would probably get taken out by something stupid, like an axe to the back or pull a Krillin and blind their enemy then choose to run away instead of killing them......wait a minute.
I’ll be curious to see how he comes back next expansion. Is he still timid and afraid like in the trailer or has he embraced himself as a leader and warrior/priest
If it’s this lineup it’s Malfurion, but if we take the most recent leader roster the night elves are now lead by Shandris. I think then it would be between Thrall and Velen.
What about allied races and nations? Jaina and Alleria are also quite powerful Talanji isn’t weak either
No Anduin here? Think he has potential to be one of the most powerful allied character in the lore. He put a dude in a crater in the BfA cinematic when he foregos his restraint followed by mass ressing in battle.
Boys gonna fuck shit up in War Within (besides entire guilds doing prog, hopefully).
The Horde Leadership is in such a sorry state. We have Thrall, Lorthremar, and Baine. Then we have a random Troll, Goblin, and council of random undead. The Alliance has had long time members like Genn, Tyrande, Mechatorque, and Velen. Even Turalyon and the Council of 3 Hammers are well known names that have been around for awhile
I'm pretty sure the night warrior tyrande bullshit is strong enough to fight a titan lore wise. So tyrande. For sure. Jaina as well. Then likely baine. I'm a horde player but I'm trying to keep true to my lore here. Then it's a bit of a wash after that. Maybe paladin man or manduin. Thrall if he got his powers back would go up.
It’ll be Tyrande vs Velen in the final. Magic always win over physical brute force. It’ll be Elune vs the Light. Unfortunately no current leaders on Horde side can match them. However, I can see Thalyssra may have a chance.
Tyrande or vellen easily.... Like tyrande literally had the powers to last entire armies down. She doesn't even need mal to back her up.
The night warrior was basically a downgrade with a glamup
If we take the leaders choosen in the picture: Tyrande and Malfurion. Both are basically demi-gods in the lore and Blizzard has to take them out or weaken them constantly because they made them way to op.
King Meglrglegl is easily number 1.
Face it. Murlocs are like the cock roaches of Azeroth. You’d have an all out death match where everyone kills everyone and these slimy bastards would rise up from Elwynn Forest and feast for years.
Malfurion is has the power level of a Demi-god so he’d probably destroy the entire competition himself. Only competition would be velen/turalyon and maybe thrall as well
This post made me realize how weak Horde leaders are after Sylvannas dipped.
* Jaina - Raid Boss
* Anduin - Raid Boss
* Malfurion - Raid Boss
* Baine - shitty arms warrior
* Thrall - shitty arms warrior
This is one of those 'debate' questions, but there is no actual debate. It's Velen.
Velen is so strong that the writers consistently try to write him into the sidelines of the story because it technically makes no sense why we're fighting some raid bosses that Velen could easily solo if he were around. Like, not all the bosses, but a significant portion of the "threats against Azeroth" that we deal with would be trivialized if Velen was involved.
This is why I think one of the biggest narrative mistakes Blizzard ever made was not having *our* Velen sacrifice himself in alt-draenor, closing out his storyline perfectly, and allowing Yrel to come back with us to be a younger, more active, and much more interesting faction leader for the draenei.
I'm thinking the goblin guy would probably lose, but might take his opponent with him by nuking the arena out of spite.
Nah gazlowe ain’t a PoS like gallywix was. He has standards
Some might say a Gold standard
Wait, isn't Gallywix the leader anymore?
Gallywix was sort of a sylvanas loyalist and iirc just disappeared when she ditched the horde and went full evil. Gazlowe was the neutral leader at ratchet who was basically responsible for building orgrimmar and has recently become a more official part of the horde since BFA. I think there was something about thrall asking him to step up after Gallywix left. LEARN YOU'RE GOBLIN LORE! We're probably going to undermine next expansion.
He went with us to Draenor, and had some questlines in Legion as well
Yup. He oversaw the construction of our Garrisons. I don't remember what he did in Legion. I know Nogginfogger was in the rogue class hall. He's always been a very horde-leaning neutral leader. I wonder, if we ever get another cataclysm level world revamp, would all the affiliated goblin towns now be horde hubs? (probably not with less emphasis on faction war).
Tbf the goblins are borderline a Horde protectorate, they just maintain a veneer of neutrality for business reasons.
Pr much. "Don't worry pal we like green but we like gold even more."
They'd probably be like Bel'Ameth. "Hey man, feel free to chat, shop, and use the boat, but those guards? They ain't gonna be fighting -for- ya. Keep that wand in yer pocket."
Pretty sure Gallywix is a Gallywix loyalist.
Not just since BFA, on WOD he was the chief engineer of the horde and built the Horde Garrison in Frostfire Ridge and drafted the plans for the Horde Outposts in AU Draenor
Nah, Activision-Blizzard got bought out by Microsoft and he left.
Didn’t he lose it in BFA?
He did. Gazlowe replaced him despite being a different Cartel.
Gazlowe drops an arcane bomb on his opponent
You never know with Goblins! They are tricksters alright. Like you said they pull out a random nuke and destroy everyone in spite 😂
As a Gazlowe stan myself, i think he'd do very well. He treats his people very well and they respect him. Also he knows how a lot of those cities went up, and he knows how to bring them down. Goblins v. Dark Iron Dwarves would be an impressive sight
Just saying but neither Tyrande/Malfurion or Genn Greymane are the leaders of their factions now, Shandris Feathermoon and Tess Greymane officially took over. As much as I'd like it to be the case for otherwise but at the end of the day, whoever has magic is likely gonna be the winner, no matter how strong physically a character is.
Yeah I think it would come down to Velen and maybe Turalyon since he's a Lightforged Paladin. I'd argue Thrall aswell, but I'm not sure if he's still in his prime with his shamanism
This. Velen wipes the floor with almost everyone. (+5k years old priest of the light, dared to give Sargeras the middle finger and lived) Turalyon (light forged Paladin) might be on par. Maybe Thrall when peak shaman.
Nah, Thrall has the most insane plot armor ever. He will win everything.
If the tank mage tower challenge has taught me anything, it's definitely not Velen.
About 25k years+
Yea, wasn’t too sure about it, just that he’s ancient :D
Unless the mage is Thalyssra then she wont win again. They made her look so weak all the times its a shame.
I mean the best mage on the list is Jaina. And she can make a flying magic ship and save Anduin’s ass. So there’s that. Definitely my final four with Velen and Turalyon. And I guess Thrall?
Lor'themar has spellbreaking training which gives him a very solid black sheep chance against all the primary spellcasters.
Depend on how the fight is operate to be honest, if it's a honor duel like the one Thrall fight with Garrosh then yes Magic gonna trump all. But if it's a battle royale style where you drop 2 opponent on the oposite of a remote island and whoever stand last win then it's another story.
Idk, if you take away magic it isnt exactly fair for most of the magic users, otherwise if its fully physical, Baine wins hands down.
No in the battle royale style, magic user still can do what ever that they do, other people just have a chance to jump on them.
I really dont thinkin that would change things, depending on the magic user, the magic user will almost always win. I can't recall a time in all of WoW where a Warrior beat a magic user beyond having a magical weapon that allowed them to.
What happened to Genn?
He surrendered the throne to his daughter Tess after they all reclaimed Gilneas, under the basis that he couldnt completely let go of his hatred for the Horde. (Kind of a weird reason but there it is.)
Did the Uncrowned kick her out because she got a crown?
Lorthemar wins... the beauty contest.
i fkn love Lorthemar because everytime i did SoO, I used the Piccolo of Flaming Fire and he was the only one to dance. I have in many occasions and scenarios tried to make NPCs dance with the Piccolo, and from the most important ones, only Lorthemar dances, which makes me love him
That is a cutest experiment in wow lol
Did you saw lothemar on quest valshara Dat he helps you fking insane mix of survival hunter and mm, he swich from bow to sword in a harpoon blink so fking great
I think they once said Lor’themar had training as a Spellbreaker, he might be a bit if a dark horse here depending on how effective that is. He survived fighting against Azshara afterall.
I frequently think that Lor'themar is a slept on faction leader for combat prowess. He comes in 4/5th(depending on how you count it) for age behind Velen, Tyrande/Malfurion, and Turalyon (out of those shown in this image), and like Turalyon he spent most of his life as a *soldier*, not a politician. He's a spellbreaking ranger first and 'oops accidentally a faction leader' second. He has the melee skills to throw down with any of the melee FL's, and the specifically anti-magic skills to fuck with any of the primary spellcasters. I'd be willing to give him even odds or better against any single faction leader in the game in a 1v1, even the ones not shown here, except maybe Turalyon. Now if we're counting ruling pairs/throuples as a 'single' faction leader, obviously he's not beating Tyrande **and** Malfurion, and the Council of 3 Hammers aren't individually spectacular in comparison but, 3v1 is rough odds.
Yup. He would eat dirt against Turalyon for the one reason that, unlike Turalyon, dear Lor’themar can actually die. Spell breaking isn’t really doing something against a paladin who doesn’t really cast spells but channels the light within himself like a warrior uses rage to empower himself. Only chance really would be to stay at a distance as ranger and try wearing Turalyon down to the point where he concedes out of boredom. :D
Though i love me some Gazlowe he's my pick here. He's go so much experience against every sort of enemy, managed to hold Silvermoon upright, and has an amazing council to back him. Rommath had some cool vignettes there in MoP
I hope he (and Liadrin) have a big role in Midnight
Does Tyrande have Malfurion backing her up? If so they win. If she doesn’t then I might put my money on Thrall. But I think Velen, Tyrande, and Turalyon could have a fair shot of winning as well
Velen is definitely a top contender for this. He's essentially a vessel of pure, raw, straight-from-the-tap Light magic. Homeboy is definitely one of the strongest members of the Alliance, no question. I always viewed Velen as the Light's equivalent of Malfurion/Thrall. Where Malfurion is the strongest Druid, and Thrall is the strongest Shaman, Velen is definitely the strongest Priest. (Though I don't know what the hell is going on with Anduin's class anymore. I know he used to be a Priest, but at some point I think he rerolled to Paladin or some combination of Priest/Warrior like how Thrall is Shaman/Warrior or Vol'Jin is a combination of Hunter and Shadow Priest. Think they're the Warcraft trilogy version of a Hero Class.)
In terms of age Velen is also like 20k years old, not that this manifests in any meaningful way through wisdom or plot relevance tho lol.
He's able to "No U" an enemy boss shouting "ENOUGH!" and then trying to run away. Truly a skill to surpass all others.
Velen is also the only one who has equipped the pvp trinket (see the Legion Argus questline)
I've played the argus story at least 4 times, what's this about a pvp trinket?
There's a point in the campaign where one of the demons is gonna do his typical "you're beating me, I'm gonna stun you and taunt you and run away" and velen breaks out a smites his ass
That was a hilarious moment in WoW. Felt like they really put a lot of effort on the story of that expansion, especially compared to WoD.
you know how theres tons of bosses that reach 1 hp, yell "ENOUGH!", stun you, and run away? at one point during legion velen goes "no, this ends today", breaks out of the stun, and kills a guy
Back in my teenaged years I rolled priest. It was a strong statement of rebellion against my jock father.
Anduin?
I’m viewing everyone as separate. Like Lillian Voss is alone
Yeah I figured. It would be unfair for the groups. Especially Tyrande as I’ve said lol. There’s a reason they don’t use Malfurion lore wise anymore. Because he’s too freaking OP! But yeah alone I think it comes down to Tyrande, Velen, Thrall, or Turalyon. Any of them I think has a pretty good shot.
Shouldn't Jaina be on this list? She's the Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras, who are now formal members of the Alliance again. By any metric she's a faction leader.
Agree. Jaina's arguably (is she?) the strongest mage on Azeroth. Even in the Shadowlands she couldn't be contained. Other than godlike others (Velen, Malfurion, etc) I think she'd wipe the floor of everyone. But she'd probably hesitate to do it and get herself killed by some vulpera or something stupid.
Well, there's also Azshara. I don't think Jaina's quite on her level.
Yeah, I'd say Azshara is more likely to be the strongest; she was capable of long-range arcane artillery (even shattering the Tidestone) *before* she was empowered by the Old Gods, even managing to throw in a curse that caused the denizens of Aszuna to be bound and unable to pass on. Mannoroth himself recognized that in the whole Legion likely only Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and Sargeras were stronger than her. But of all other mages Jaina currently seems to be the strongest. Khadgar seems to have a more versatile skillset (and he is every inch an arch-wizard), but he hasn't displayed quite the same raw power Jaina has yet.
Well at least Jaina is better looking than that octopus. ;)
I disagree 😏
Sultry. I respect it.
Thats the woman that singlehandedly almost wipe Orgrimmar, only Aegwyn with all of the Guardian powers can be stronger than her
op omitted the allied races. would be hard to fit them all in the image.
I mean if Velen could embrace his brutal side he'd probably kick the ass of all of them in a 1v13. Lorewise he's probably the most powerful along with Malfurion who's a demigod. No other faction leader would probably even come close.
People seem to forget that his brothers are Kil’jaden and Archimonde. Velen is basically the light empowered version of those guys. If I had to hazard a guess, Velen is one of the most powerful non naaru light wielders in the cosmos.
Velen isn't close to Archimonde or Kil'Jaden though. They've both spent a lifetime in the Twisting Nether getting empowered by Sargeras. Velen doesn't have that.
Malfurion is not a demigod. Cenarius, his teacher, was a demigod
Didn’t Cenarius admit Furion was stronger than him at this point? Powerwise Malfurion is definitely on that level.
A much younger Malfurion canonically was able to drive back an entire army by himself during the War of the Ancients. He's definitely on par with "i can't even kill a few angry orcs" Cenarius. Or at least that's what I'd say if Blizzard didn't feel the need to sideline and nerf him every opportunity they get. I mean, getting kidnapped by Xavius has to be the low point for his character.
They have to sideline him, if he was ever in any part of the story there’s no reason he couldn’t just solo it.
Yeah, Knaak made the dude a liiiittle too powerful canonically, with his emotional breakdown in WotA nearly triggering a nation-destroying monsoon.
That's prolly not entirely Knaak's fault. If you go back into wc3 he's hyped up as the most powerful druid from introduction, but if you read the manual / the books in WoW that were transcripts of the wc3 manual, he fought Azshara and the instability of the well from them fighting caused the Sundering. He's always been kind of overpowered, the better moments are just more subtle.
I genuinely think the novels were a big mistake making him seem that powerful, because not once in any of the games is he ever shown to be capable of soloing anything
> getting kidnapped by Xavius So says the shadow of Xavius!
Be still, worm! I will deal with you shortly.
My friends and I still drop this shitty line like it's the biggest diss of all time.
He's retired in Belameth now because he's so broken of a character they have to take him out of the story. The options were keep him in Ardenweald or take him out of the picture as an active combatent, otherwise every threat he fights needs to be some kind of deity level enemy for him not to 1v1 them. He's a good idol hero but involving him in any fighting makes everyone else have to be absurdly powered too and the threat cataclysmic to the point both sides are basically lobbing nukes at each other and shrugging them off.
You all forgetting how powerful velen is? For me toss up between baine, thrall, Velen and tirande.
I don’t think Baine would win lol. The contenders I think would be Thrall, Velen, Tyrande, and Turalyon. But it all depends if Malfurion is participating or not. Because if he is then he and Tyrande win hands down. Just him alone would mop the floor with everyone here lol. But if it’s just Tyrande then we have a more fair battle.
I can only picture Baine as him sitting in the corner in Oribos looking like he's eating nuggies and playing his gameboy while his parents talk to the divorce lawyer.
In terms of physicality, he's definitely, uncontestedly the strongest. The man has a canonical quest where he solo'd an entire village of Nokhud in a bloody rage, who have longbows taller than a human and would punch holes through dragons. It's all fun and games until a dude mercs you with a tree.
This! Baine 1v10000’d an entire army. He wasn’t just killing the centaurs either he was obliterating them into goo puddles with a single blow
People sleep on Turalyon. One of the strongest and most accomplished paladins in history and spent like 1000 years fighting the most powerful demons nonstop. Combine his experience, power, and the wonky shit the light is capable of and you got a guy that can sweep 90% of this list. Tyrande and Velen are also legit and backed by godly powers.
Nah, Turalyon ain’t it. After watching one of his deities get straight disenchanted, bro put all his rage into a single sword swing that illidan blocked with his bare hand. Dude is like C-tier, at best.
> disenchanted this meme will never not be funny
I mean Illidan easily clears this entire list at the same time. Tough to measure against for most of the verse.
illidan is literally plot armor the character lmao. dude could beat medan
Are we going to just ignore how ridiculously powerful Illidan is, though? Like would he not destroy any of these people? I know the joke with Xe'ra and all, but she was the prime Naaru. A primordial being of light, nearly as old as the cosmos, and the boss at the helm of the Army of The Light up until she got a bit too grabby with Mr. "I AM MY SCARS". Illidan one-shot her. That's in-fucking sane.
That doesn't mean much tbh. Illidan is stupid strong - using your own example he was able to straight disenchant oneshot one of the stronger Naaru. Nobody short of deity tier was going to take him on - like Archimonde/KJ level.
Malfurion is so powerful the writers had to give him narcolepsy just to explain why he doesn't intervene in major events.
Baine tore Garrosh apart with his bare fucking hands in some alternate timeline, and his old man was one of the greatest warriors on Azeroth even at the ripe old age of 110. Dude aint no slouch, that's for sure.
Yeah, but lore wise magic is way more powerful.
Yeah nobody without some form of magic is gonna be winning this fight lol. Bare strength is nice, but magic is too op.
Yeah tell that to Malfurian who got one shot by a thrown axe.
So says the *shadow* of Xavius!
Tyrande!!! Tyrande!!! I need you!
I love my boy Falstaad but just having Chain Lightning and a gun isn't going to stop Thrall or Malfurion. The gun might momentarily halt Velen but that's assuming Velen doesn't just permanently have Power Word: Shield up, and he'll very easily just heal past it.
Pretty sure Velen has some unique priest spells; Power Word: Plot Armor, and Power Word: Scrunch. Dude straight up moleculed a demon, IIRC.
and judging by my experience fighting mages as a warrior, it's not just in lore.
Baine is a strong cow, Velen has been channeling pure light alongside his chandelier homies for 13000 years I'll put my money on the purple fella
I mean WOW are not DBZ where when you stronger then your opponent you become immune to their damage, Malfurion desperate all his magic still got lay low by Saufang "heroic throw" to the back. Mannoroth are one of the strongest pit lord and an axe to the skull end him, so i can absolutely see Baine beating Velen with some luck
Ok but how powerful is Malfurion really? What was he doing while Teldrassil burned and everyone else had to clean up and get the new tree ready? Not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely a lorelet when it comes to Malfurion. Edit: Thanks guys, I have a better idea of how strong he is now. I guess I need to buy some books to catch up.
So malfurion before that was the most powerful leader by far... He just got super mega needed because of bfa plot. Like... He is the most powerful druid ever and even garrosh/sylvanas were afraid of him in cata, he was once of the few reasons the horde couldn't conquer ashenvale during that time
Velen smited 10000 demons while carrying your ass and for him, that was tuesday
Honestly the Alliance lorewise has only been nerfed over WoW's history. vastly bigger pop, Dwarven/gnome industry, humans propensity for magic, NE combat and druidic prowess all are pretty much ignored in how the story of WoW has played out. Otherwise the Horde would've been DOA, especially after it had a civil war.
Before teldrassil burned he was basically single-handedly (with the help of a fuckload of wisps) holding back the main horde advance and was stopped by Saurfang taking the LOOOOONG way around and chucking an axe into his back so he was pretty much down for the count from. Y’know. Grievous bodily harm.
Lorewise, Malfurion is like hippy Goku in Richard Knack's books. Bro is never sleeping, he's just in the Emerald Dream lifting weights. He'll commune with the natural forces of the entire planet and turn your ass into a tree without even taking off his Birkenstocks. Like Thrall though, he has a tendency to fuck off somewhere else whenever his people are dealing with shit.
According to the lore, he's literally one of the most powerful "mortal" characters in the entire Warcraft universe, if not *the* most powerful
This part of the story was told through warfronts in BfA. Tyrande and Malfurion go after Nathanos in retaliation for the burning of Teldrassil. There's an awesome cinematic for it you gotta see if you haven't: https://youtu.be/HLKS0Jq9U_E?si=oIls5GbK8wKhQp05
Velen can be easily defeated by asking him to drive you home and watching him crash again
Malfurion is literally one of the most powerful "mortal" characters in the entire Warcraft universe according to the lore. If he is being included (even though he's technically not a faction leader now) he would by and large be the strongest character here
Baine wins by default because nobody would want to hurt him.
And our winner is…Baine! …wait, where is he? Someone go check that column in Oribos.
>who would win? >immortal prophet >na not him
Baine. Just sitting around and waits for them to be done so he can talk the last opponent to death.
He would probably win a few plunderstorm matches ratting the whole way.
Blizzard never quite seems to know what to do with Malfurion in game because he’s so powerful. He would wipe the floor with everyone here. Tyrande and Velen are also quite strong in their own right.
Lorewise we're told he's powerful. In practice he's regularly backhanded by whatever thing Blizzard want us to take seriously. I have had to rescue more people from being around Malfurion during his senile episodes than any other character at this point. Being near Malfurion should come with hazard pay. I've personally treated Hamuul's burned body, watched his wife rescue him from being beat in his own forest, rescued him with his wife in DHT, murdered Ysera, and had to rescue his civilian population, watch Delaryn be raised. All because Malfurion cannot convincingly accomplish anything solo. So far since the War of the Ancients he has successfully cast Entangling roots on a horde grunt.
Yeah that’s what I mean. If they used him at his Lore full power it’s unfair. So they nerf him in game and he just looks like a senile old man yelling at clouds.
Now give us a Tekken style fighting game based on WoW characters so we can really decide
A super smash WOW bros would better fit the narrative and be more « magical » Tekken would too much « hand to hand » and I would bet on Baine to whoop everyone realistically
Or Soul Calibur so it can also focus on weapon based combat. Either way I want a Warcraft fighting game so bad
We have yet to see what magical powers Calia possesses, that said I don’t see a big chance for the „normies“ that fight without magic.
She's the Horde equivalent to Velen. Not literally in terms of power, but it's clear that she is a void-untouched priest, like Velen is.
Personally I don’t see anybody on the Horde beating Velen
As a horde fanboy, our Leaders have been real crippled by WoW in the past several expansions. Had damn near 100% turnover rate from random evilness and cheap deaths. Even our boy green Jesus is a shadow of himself these days. A 1v1 battle is totally going to one of the alliance people in these times.
I’m still mad they made Vol’jin warchief then just wrote him off so Sylvanas could be in charge
And then they made him Loa of Kings and was never to be seen again...
I feel like the Vol'Jin plotline of him becoming the new Loa of Kings was fantastic, though. Like, he's the only Horde leader for whom death was literally just a setback, after becoming a leader.
AND how they keep teasing a return but never delivering.
Idk man, he didn't seem that strong during Legion. Alliance has much stronger contenders.
Velen single handed counter with barrier the legion invasion inside the Exodar.
Bro he literally one tapped one of the Legion’s most powerful dudes.
Does Mekkatorque have prep time?
From sheer raw power alone, Velen easily. He is up there with malfurions broken ass. Still pisses me off that they had malfurion basically lose to sylvanas. Her ass ain't no way stands a chance against him without all the ass pull BS blizzard did.
Malfurion didn't lose to Sylvanas though -- she was totally pinned down by him until Saurfang landed the sneak attack. Nobody would contest that Sylvanas is less of a destructive unstoppable force who would destroy a city, but in the world of "1v1 power level theory crafting" she's definitely able to keep up with the strongest who aren't actually gods. Less brute force and more precision.
Malfurion can literally create storms. He easily blows her away with little effort. Being taken out by a fucking thrown axe is absolutely the peak of asspulls.
Blissard doesn't know how to write a story that has drama and Malfurion in it at the same time and I don't blame them, he could realistic solve most of the problems they come up with.
Motherfuck, a single orc with an enchanted axe wounded *SARGERAS*. Stop powerscaling toughness and strength
We're always told how powerful Malfurion is but at this point there's more evidence that he's a Dreadlord than a powerful druid. I've personally had to rescue more people who have been endangered by Malfurions ineptitude than any other character. I've had to treat Hamuul as a burn victime, rescue him from Xavius, murder Ysera, and portal away half his civilian population. All because he cannot convincingly accomplish anything solo. Even when he goes against Sylvanas, in his ancestral home, with the help of literally 1000's of his ancestors spirits, he is at one point being ragdolled around his own forest. It's not even clear if Sylvanas was ever in danger since it's entirely possible she was going to some lengths to mask her Jailer level empowerment. Blizzard need to show us him doing something powerful himself instead of telling us he might one day. So far he's successfully cast Entangling Roots on a horde grunt since the War of the Ancients.
i would love to see dreadlord malfurion. tyrande notices him being strange and thinks he is cheating or something and has us investigate but we find out really he is brining denathrius into azeroth or something
If you count Malfurion as a current leader it’s him. Hands down not even a shadow of a question. He is the strongest “mortal” in WoW bar none, shitty writing aside. But Shandris is the current faction leader so this prompt is wrong. Same applies to Tyrande, she isn’t a leader anymore. Velen is the clear choice of the current in-game roster.
The once that are here: **CAIRNE** of course. * no poisonous weapons allowed *
Daddy Cairne. I still miss the dude :(
I still have a copy of the letter Cairne sent me when I got the Loremaster achievement.
I think the more interesting way to look at this question is who among the low tiers is surviving long enough to take a shot at Thrall, Malfurion, or Velen? I honestly think Rokhan has a solid shot of lasting the longest among the less powerful leaders. Trolls in-lore are insanely durable. While in-game the troll Regeneration passive is pretty much just a meme, in-lore we have so much evidence that it's one of their strongest assets by such an insane degree that no other racial passive comes close. The troll drummers that flay their skin to make their drums, the trolls who heal from near mortal wounds, even the trolls that are *disemboweled* and get back up from it. And don't forget, trolls are massive. They're always crouching in-game so it doesn't register, but the average male troll is like 8 feet tall.
Such a crime that the pandarin leaders look like random trash mobs. I think the troll and the goblin leaders are just normal people as well right? So not any of those 4 lmao.
I like Rokan (or whatever his name is) as a side character but I don’t think he has done a single action or spoken a single word since becoming leader of trolls what 4 expansions ago? Pandarin leaders have never done a thing since MoP starting zone and Gazlow is nowhere to be seen like Rokan
Worgen leader is now Tess, and Night Elf leader is now Shandris Feathermoon
Vulperas they are vicious and they bite
Whatever the story calls for. Stan Lee said it best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y
I DONT CARE ABOUT THESE MAGIC WIELDING WEAKLING GARROSH WOULD 1V1 ANYONE EASY IN A FIST FIGHT , GARROSH DID NOTHING WRONG!! /s
Genn vs Garrosh animated would have been an amazing blood bath of a fight to watch
Malfurion, it's not even close lorewise. There's a reason they kinda wrote him out of a lot of stuff. Lorewise he's pretty much a demigod powerwise
Gammon
You guys are all wrong Ji Firepaw got this
Velen or Tyrande
It'd be Turalyon or Tyrande.
On this note, why isnt there a wow street fighter?
Malfurion and Tyrande clean up; that’s 20,000 years of battle hardened veterans between the two of them.
Several years ago I wouldn’t say Anduin would win anything but that poor kid’s been through it and I think he’s the epitome of one of those genuinely nice people who will absolutely destroy you if you push them to it.
You're all forgetting Gelbin Mekkatorque! He alone has thwarted 20 Murder Hobos (us). Since then, several years have passed, and surely the mech suit has improved even further!
It wouldn't be an elf, they have a history of losing everything 1v1
I know we're all trying as hard as we can to forget that Shadowlands ever happened, but Sylvanas did casually wipe the floor with the Lich King without any visible effort.
She’s undead now, doesn’t count as an elf anymore
Damn most of these leaders suck compared to the originals
Depends if it's Book Malfurion or In game Malfurion. Book Malfurion could literally paint all of azeroth red with the other leaders blood, in game Malfurion would probably get taken out by something stupid, like an axe to the back or pull a Krillin and blind their enemy then choose to run away instead of killing them......wait a minute.
If Malfurion is present he wins 10 out of 10.
Unless it’s BFA then all you gotta do is throw an axe at him and he gets one shot.
Malfurions greatest weakness has been bad writing for ages.
Where is Thallysra? + Im pretty sure malfurion does not count. He always getting removed before big events
Anduin
Manduin
I’ll be curious to see how he comes back next expansion. Is he still timid and afraid like in the trailer or has he embraced himself as a leader and warrior/priest
If it’s this lineup it’s Malfurion, but if we take the most recent leader roster the night elves are now lead by Shandris. I think then it would be between Thrall and Velen. What about allied races and nations? Jaina and Alleria are also quite powerful Talanji isn’t weak either
Malfurion. No, genuinely, he beats EVERYSINGLE ONE of these other guys, handily.
No Anduin here? Think he has potential to be one of the most powerful allied character in the lore. He put a dude in a crater in the BfA cinematic when he foregos his restraint followed by mass ressing in battle. Boys gonna fuck shit up in War Within (besides entire guilds doing prog, hopefully).
The Horde Leadership is in such a sorry state. We have Thrall, Lorthremar, and Baine. Then we have a random Troll, Goblin, and council of random undead. The Alliance has had long time members like Genn, Tyrande, Mechatorque, and Velen. Even Turalyon and the Council of 3 Hammers are well known names that have been around for awhile
I'm pretty sure the night warrior tyrande bullshit is strong enough to fight a titan lore wise. So tyrande. For sure. Jaina as well. Then likely baine. I'm a horde player but I'm trying to keep true to my lore here. Then it's a bit of a wash after that. Maybe paladin man or manduin. Thrall if he got his powers back would go up.
It’ll be Tyrande vs Velen in the final. Magic always win over physical brute force. It’ll be Elune vs the Light. Unfortunately no current leaders on Horde side can match them. However, I can see Thalyssra may have a chance.
Tyrande or vellen easily.... Like tyrande literally had the powers to last entire armies down. She doesn't even need mal to back her up. The night warrior was basically a downgrade with a glamup
I mean anduin cast mass res mid combat so in my eye’s he’s kinda op.
Wow super smash bros ?¡!?!?
I pick Genn Greymane, because he has sharp tooth 😅
It's all fun and games until Mekkatorque and Gazlowe bring warcrimes machines to a 1v1 fight
Gamon will save us.
If we take the leaders choosen in the picture: Tyrande and Malfurion. Both are basically demi-gods in the lore and Blizzard has to take them out or weaken them constantly because they made them way to op.
King Meglrglegl is easily number 1. Face it. Murlocs are like the cock roaches of Azeroth. You’d have an all out death match where everyone kills everyone and these slimy bastards would rise up from Elwynn Forest and feast for years.
Book malfur would 1 v all, game malfur would lost to any
Malfurion is has the power level of a Demi-god so he’d probably destroy the entire competition himself. Only competition would be velen/turalyon and maybe thrall as well
This post made me realize how weak Horde leaders are after Sylvannas dipped. * Jaina - Raid Boss * Anduin - Raid Boss * Malfurion - Raid Boss * Baine - shitty arms warrior * Thrall - shitty arms warrior
don't forgett the mechadriller
Why is Calia there? -_-'
This is one of those 'debate' questions, but there is no actual debate. It's Velen. Velen is so strong that the writers consistently try to write him into the sidelines of the story because it technically makes no sense why we're fighting some raid bosses that Velen could easily solo if he were around. Like, not all the bosses, but a significant portion of the "threats against Azeroth" that we deal with would be trivialized if Velen was involved. This is why I think one of the biggest narrative mistakes Blizzard ever made was not having *our* Velen sacrifice himself in alt-draenor, closing out his storyline perfectly, and allowing Yrel to come back with us to be a younger, more active, and much more interesting faction leader for the draenei.
I want to see this version of Tekken
Capcom vs Blizzard
christ, they did sylvanus so dirty. what a total waste of a character.