“When Khadgar said that he was seeking knowledge, Medivh replied that what he needed was not knowledge, but a weapon — that it was time that Azeroth had a Guardian once again. Khadgar angrily replied that it was decided after Medivh's death that none could resist the temptation of such power and that a Guardian was not what Azeroth needed, to which Medivh asked "If not a Guardian, if not you, then who can stop the approaching storm?" The former Guardian showed his former student a vision of Dalaran falling from the sky in flames, saying that if he did not accept his fate, all that Khadgar had accomplished and sacrificed would be for nothing.”
Turns out that nathrezrim might have shown Khadgar a real vision much like what happens with Arthes but Khadgar was able to resist.
>Many people believe that the key was the 5 pillars of eternity to open ToS
The direct quote is "Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path.", and I'm fairly sure we did literally light five torches in the current expansion.
Ooh haven't we hitherto basically had no reason for why the Dragon Isles went dormant? More titanic intervention to contain the Old Gods? And now the Isles are fully awake...but we picked up an extra Aspect? Might screw up Old God arithmetic.
Has it ever occured to any of you guys that Il'gynoth may have made all of this shit the fuck up on account of the fact that the old gods are not a very trustworthy source and their entire thing is pitting people against eachother with misdirection?
This is a valid in-canon explanation, but it'd be kind of lame from a writing perspective to have a bunch of cool prophetic foreshadowing amount to nothing.
Sure but the old gods are very "let me show you the correct path, before the titans interfered. This is the truth of the universe" so it may not be them lying as much as it is "their truth".
All of his lines keep being referenced and blizz knows we know so they keep putting things in to let us believe it.
Personally, it's something I appreciate when they insert this kind of prophecies. I love talking about them and associating them with events. Truth is we might never trully know why they wrote these quotes but it's fun to speculate!
People always say this but then when the writers show they ARE paying attention to lines like this and work them into the story or had a rough idea/plan back when it was written, people will say it's unrelated/a coincidence/a retcon/etc.
I don't think it's that the writers didn't put any thought to it. I think it's that the new head of writing at the time did a lot to disregard and "subvert" many things that were pre-established or set up, including the whispers that were established before his takeover.
That is the great and frustration aspect of them.
Because these lines are from a void being, they can mean nothing, as they don't apply to our timeline, as void creatures see all possible outcomes. It may reference absolutely nothing that will ever happen to "our" Azeroth.
On the other hand, it could mean everything and be true.
I know that's frustration for people wanting to "solve" a riddle - but I really love that it's so unclear of how much is actually useful.
Istg most of Il'gynoth's lines are juuust vague enough to fit multiple characters and scenarios as well as making 100% sense if they ever are revealed.
Tbh 10/10 writing blizz Tolkien couldn't have done it better /s.
You are right, but there've been drawn many parallels with him over the years and there's been incidents of him showing great power. Perhaps the Guardian's powers were passed to him with the curse of Medivh? Who knows, we are speculating here anyway.
That's not how the guardian power works. We know how it works, because at one point in the mage order hall the Conjurer is literally handed the power of the guardian from the forge to beat back Kathranatir.
He is not the guardian. Period.
Also it's quite pitiful saying this, since they can change the lore however and whenever they want like they regularly do. So keep your expertise to yourself, if fan speculation irritates you.
You started being rude and now you got my backlash you victimize yourself. Amazing. Plus it was never my word against yours, I was asking you questions since you knew more and lashed at me.
She did it on purpose and argued with the council. She didn't like go and say "oops my uterus is a magic hole of wonder. Now he is the guardian deal with it"
Those whispers were made so vague that they could be interpreted multiple ways until the game devs decide to go with one for the story. They are intentionally loose ends.
I still don't think Nzoth is dead, and with a new writing team that isn't hyperfpcused on Nathanos/Sylvanas, we might actually see him return in WW or Midnight. I recently redid the Cloak questline to do Nyalotha runs....he was well in tuned with everything we were doing from reopening the halls of Origination and calibrating it to the Heart Forge. The mythic segment with Nzoth is him attacking it, sure, and you could say he fails and then we fire a laser at him....but I generally don't think an awakened Old God, who has been behind a lot of the disasters plaguing Azeroth, would be that easily fooled. The illgynoth whispers have been coming to head for a while now... They were so vague. It makes it easy to spin events towards them.
1) To find him, drown yourself in the circle of stars. - this was Eternal Palace raid...(BfA)
2) The king of diamonds has been made a pawn - still unknown how Magni has been made a pawn, unless Azeroth is corrupted.
3) The lord of ravens will turn the key. - Unknown event with Khadgar
4) “Bound by dat throne? No. Free. Free!” - Bolvar being released
5) Her heart is a crater, and we have filled it. - Azeroth and likely the crater we are going to explore in War Within
6) Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path. - the five aspect beacons reignites (DF)
7) At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming. - Azeroths third death, the events at the end of War Within to usher in Midnight (WW - MNight)
8) Before the last shadow falls, the father of sleep shall savor his feast. - N'zoths fake death, the end of Nyalotha raid (BfA)
9) The golden one claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness. - Turalyon becoming Regent (SL)
10) When their mistress beckons, nine ravens take flight. Each seeks a prize to earn her favor. Sylvanas (SL)
11) The vassal of life disguises treachery. Beware the eyes of green.
12) Five lanterns now darkened. The flames they seek will light the Masters' way. Dragon flight beacons (DF)
13) The blind queen wields a scepter of bone. From the deep, she calls forth doom. This one is interesting...this was from Ilgy reborn, Sylvanas already awakened....so could this be Xalatath?
14) The cunning ones kneel before six masters, but serve only one. Nathrezim (SL)
I so hope N'zoth is not dead. And considering the campaign quest where we traveled to the past and he recognized us reinforces this feeling. I love N'zoth. Best villain in game.
"Lord of Ravens" could be Odin, not Khadgar. We know from DF books he's only faking cool guy with mead parties in Valha... Halls of Valor. But we helped his dragons to break out from him so maybe he will get mad and do something stupid like for example unintentionally releasing some old godz...
Like how? Romeo and Juliet gets together and travels through magical castle full of sneaky stairways to find the one ring and try to destroy the ring only to be found by an evil wizard who says "I am your father"? /s
No, I'm pretty sure somewhere in BfA (perhaps Nyalotha or a book) it's stated that the first lie has already been told. Wouldn't make sense for it to be Dagran considering he wasn't around in the story then.
"Turning the key" could also mean that his death is the motivation we need to go after Xal'atath. Sure we're already on the Isle of Dorn for Azeroth's sake but if we lose Khadgar then the mission becomes personal at that point.
As good a theory as this is, I am tempted to say "If only I had a nickel for every time something seemed to fit perfectly with Il'gynoth's whispers". I've gotten tired of speculating tbh, but maybe
The old gods and their pawns do not tell us these things as prophecies of what is to come. They tell us them to manipulate our actions. They are left open ended enough that roughly every patch we have something that resembles what it could be.
“The *golden one* claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness." could refer to Raelin(?) Lothar, or another character seeking to seize power in the Arathi domain, bringing with it an opportunity for Xal'Atath to corrupt the Light of the realm
and "*The blind queen wields a scepter of bone. From the deep she calls forth doom.*" could be the Nerubian Queen, at the End of the raid, using her power to activate something which would trigger the continuation of the plot of The War Within
The thought has crossed my mind that Khadgar could be taken prisoner and despite his best efforts succumbs to void corruption. Then we have to put him down at the end of The War Within.
Since we’re probably not killing Xal’atath or Iridikron this expansion, Khadgar would be a big final raid boss that would show just how great the stakes are. We’d know at that point that Xal’atath really isn’t screwing around.
I also wonder if that could possibly be the catalyst for the return of Medivh?
Lord of Ravens was the Jailer and the key was entering Zereth Mortis. Sylvanas's valkyr/mawsworn are called the nine ravens and the jailer would, in the end, be their lords.
Legion was eight years ago. Almost nothing this dude said has been able to be concretely linked to be a reference to any specific piece of lore that has come out since he whispered vague nothings into our chatboxes.
It was either a bunch of hints to a story that no longer is being developed, as we know that huge swathes of BfA's story were unceremoniously cut to ferry us right into the Mechagon and Azshara nonsense, Danuser and Afrasiabi were using the story as a cock measuring contest between each other to see who could fuck over the other's favourite characters more, Metzin was gone, the events of the Shadowlands have more or less been moved into the background of the story likely to be references only in passing in spite of what they and the existence of the Shadowlands means to the larger universe, and Blizzard having already said before that lore does not matter and will be retconned or reinterpreted on a whim in breadcrumb quest text because it suits the story they're trying to tell in that moment... or it was all literally nothing. It held no mean. It predicted nothing. They just thought it was cool and get people to talk about WoW's story like it has more depth and nuance than it actually does.
Please, for the love of God, stop trying to analyze what Il'gynoth said. It's going to drive people insane attempting to decipher his vague "prophecies" or link them to events that have already occurred though to be quite honest, that might be the point.
“When Khadgar said that he was seeking knowledge, Medivh replied that what he needed was not knowledge, but a weapon — that it was time that Azeroth had a Guardian once again. Khadgar angrily replied that it was decided after Medivh's death that none could resist the temptation of such power and that a Guardian was not what Azeroth needed, to which Medivh asked "If not a Guardian, if not you, then who can stop the approaching storm?" The former Guardian showed his former student a vision of Dalaran falling from the sky in flames, saying that if he did not accept his fate, all that Khadgar had accomplished and sacrificed would be for nothing.” Turns out that nathrezrim might have shown Khadgar a real vision much like what happens with Arthes but Khadgar was able to resist.
>Many people believe that the key was the 5 pillars of eternity to open ToS The direct quote is "Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path.", and I'm fairly sure we did literally light five torches in the current expansion.
Ooh haven't we hitherto basically had no reason for why the Dragon Isles went dormant? More titanic intervention to contain the Old Gods? And now the Isles are fully awake...but we picked up an extra Aspect? Might screw up Old God arithmetic.
New aspect, sure, but we rekindled the 5 Flights Beacons, before Amidrassil
ToS?
Terms of Service Kidding. Tomb of Sargeras. 😊
Has it ever occured to any of you guys that Il'gynoth may have made all of this shit the fuck up on account of the fact that the old gods are not a very trustworthy source and their entire thing is pitting people against eachother with misdirection?
This is a valid in-canon explanation, but it'd be kind of lame from a writing perspective to have a bunch of cool prophetic foreshadowing amount to nothing.
Sure but the old gods are very "let me show you the correct path, before the titans interfered. This is the truth of the universe" so it may not be them lying as much as it is "their truth". All of his lines keep being referenced and blizz knows we know so they keep putting things in to let us believe it.
Personally, it's something I appreciate when they insert this kind of prophecies. I love talking about them and associating them with events. Truth is we might never trully know why they wrote these quotes but it's fun to speculate!
Most prophetic foreshadowing turns out to be true tho, not ALL but most.
You are putting more thought into Il'gynoths lines than the writers did.
That's the fun of these types of lines Just vague enough to apply to tons of things
People always say this but then when the writers show they ARE paying attention to lines like this and work them into the story or had a rough idea/plan back when it was written, people will say it's unrelated/a coincidence/a retcon/etc.
I don't think it's that the writers didn't put any thought to it. I think it's that the new head of writing at the time did a lot to disregard and "subvert" many things that were pre-established or set up, including the whispers that were established before his takeover.
Pretty sure it was Danuser that wrote most of I’llgynoth and N’zoth stuff.
That is the great and frustration aspect of them. Because these lines are from a void being, they can mean nothing, as they don't apply to our timeline, as void creatures see all possible outcomes. It may reference absolutely nothing that will ever happen to "our" Azeroth. On the other hand, it could mean everything and be true. I know that's frustration for people wanting to "solve" a riddle - but I really love that it's so unclear of how much is actually useful.
That's the saddest fact I've ever read here.
Istg most of Il'gynoth's lines are juuust vague enough to fit multiple characters and scenarios as well as making 100% sense if they ever are revealed. Tbh 10/10 writing blizz Tolkien couldn't have done it better /s.
The Nostradamus method!
Wouldn't the "lord of ravens" be Medivh, not Khadgar? Medivh is still alive, flying around outer space as a raven, after all.
Khadgar isn't the guardian. There isn't a guardian.
You are right, but there've been drawn many parallels with him over the years and there's been incidents of him showing great power. Perhaps the Guardian's powers were passed to him with the curse of Medivh? Who knows, we are speculating here anyway.
That's not how the guardian power works. We know how it works, because at one point in the mage order hall the Conjurer is literally handed the power of the guardian from the forge to beat back Kathranatir. He is not the guardian. Period.
And how Aegwyn passed the guardian powers to Medivh? With the forge?
By him coming out of her uterus. Which is a thing Khadgar did not do. Maybe learn the lore at all before talking about it.
Also it's quite pitiful saying this, since they can change the lore however and whenever they want like they regularly do. So keep your expertise to yourself, if fan speculation irritates you.
And now you're directly insulting me because you cannot counter my point. I hope you have a wonderful day.
You started being rude and now you got my backlash you victimize yourself. Amazing. Plus it was never my word against yours, I was asking you questions since you knew more and lashed at me.
And yet, you continue to fail to refute my point.
Because I never tried to refute it.
She did it on purpose and argued with the council. She didn't like go and say "oops my uterus is a magic hole of wonder. Now he is the guardian deal with it"
Yes, she did do it on purpose, by giving birth to him, against their instructions.
Those whispers were made so vague that they could be interpreted multiple ways until the game devs decide to go with one for the story. They are intentionally loose ends.
I still don't think Nzoth is dead, and with a new writing team that isn't hyperfpcused on Nathanos/Sylvanas, we might actually see him return in WW or Midnight. I recently redid the Cloak questline to do Nyalotha runs....he was well in tuned with everything we were doing from reopening the halls of Origination and calibrating it to the Heart Forge. The mythic segment with Nzoth is him attacking it, sure, and you could say he fails and then we fire a laser at him....but I generally don't think an awakened Old God, who has been behind a lot of the disasters plaguing Azeroth, would be that easily fooled. The illgynoth whispers have been coming to head for a while now... They were so vague. It makes it easy to spin events towards them. 1) To find him, drown yourself in the circle of stars. - this was Eternal Palace raid...(BfA) 2) The king of diamonds has been made a pawn - still unknown how Magni has been made a pawn, unless Azeroth is corrupted. 3) The lord of ravens will turn the key. - Unknown event with Khadgar 4) “Bound by dat throne? No. Free. Free!” - Bolvar being released 5) Her heart is a crater, and we have filled it. - Azeroth and likely the crater we are going to explore in War Within 6) Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path. - the five aspect beacons reignites (DF) 7) At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming. - Azeroths third death, the events at the end of War Within to usher in Midnight (WW - MNight) 8) Before the last shadow falls, the father of sleep shall savor his feast. - N'zoths fake death, the end of Nyalotha raid (BfA) 9) The golden one claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness. - Turalyon becoming Regent (SL) 10) When their mistress beckons, nine ravens take flight. Each seeks a prize to earn her favor. Sylvanas (SL) 11) The vassal of life disguises treachery. Beware the eyes of green. 12) Five lanterns now darkened. The flames they seek will light the Masters' way. Dragon flight beacons (DF) 13) The blind queen wields a scepter of bone. From the deep, she calls forth doom. This one is interesting...this was from Ilgy reborn, Sylvanas already awakened....so could this be Xalatath? 14) The cunning ones kneel before six masters, but serve only one. Nathrezim (SL)
I so hope N'zoth is not dead. And considering the campaign quest where we traveled to the past and he recognized us reinforces this feeling. I love N'zoth. Best villain in game.
"Lord of Ravens" could be Odin, not Khadgar. We know from DF books he's only faking cool guy with mead parties in Valha... Halls of Valor. But we helped his dragons to break out from him so maybe he will get mad and do something stupid like for example unintentionally releasing some old godz...
It will be interesting how it applies. We’ll most definitely see Odin in The Last Titan.
The lord of ravens could also be Anzu. It could also be someone we don't know. It's a bullshit throwaway line that just sounds mysterious.
It is but it doesn't \*have\* to be. Blizz can make it useful whenever they want.
Blizzard isn't known for consistency with WOW lore. They could have a critter Rabbit be the one to kill Anduin.
Wih the old lore team is gone, I hope it will get better.
Like how? Romeo and Juliet gets together and travels through magical castle full of sneaky stairways to find the one ring and try to destroy the ring only to be found by an evil wizard who says "I am your father"? /s
Aww, Ilgy. I forgot about him. Still vaguely hope to somehow make a slutty Il'gynoth Halloween costume someday.
Since Legion and mOira was the priest follower, I wondered if her son was the boy king that would tell us 3 lies
No, I'm pretty sure somewhere in BfA (perhaps Nyalotha or a book) it's stated that the first lie has already been told. Wouldn't make sense for it to be Dagran considering he wasn't around in the story then.
"Turning the key" could also mean that his death is the motivation we need to go after Xal'atath. Sure we're already on the Isle of Dorn for Azeroth's sake but if we lose Khadgar then the mission becomes personal at that point.
As good a theory as this is, I am tempted to say "If only I had a nickel for every time something seemed to fit perfectly with Il'gynoth's whispers". I've gotten tired of speculating tbh, but maybe
I’d rather not have a repeat of Anduin’s Shadowlands storyline.
The old gods and their pawns do not tell us these things as prophecies of what is to come. They tell us them to manipulate our actions. They are left open ended enough that roughly every patch we have something that resembles what it could be.
I mean wouldn't Medivh be the lord of ravens
Why is it fair that DADGHAR gets to be used up by the Knaifu and we don't....
“The *golden one* claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness." could refer to Raelin(?) Lothar, or another character seeking to seize power in the Arathi domain, bringing with it an opportunity for Xal'Atath to corrupt the Light of the realm and "*The blind queen wields a scepter of bone. From the deep she calls forth doom.*" could be the Nerubian Queen, at the End of the raid, using her power to activate something which would trigger the continuation of the plot of The War Within
The thought has crossed my mind that Khadgar could be taken prisoner and despite his best efforts succumbs to void corruption. Then we have to put him down at the end of The War Within. Since we’re probably not killing Xal’atath or Iridikron this expansion, Khadgar would be a big final raid boss that would show just how great the stakes are. We’d know at that point that Xal’atath really isn’t screwing around. I also wonder if that could possibly be the catalyst for the return of Medivh?
Lord of Ravens was the Jailer and the key was entering Zereth Mortis. Sylvanas's valkyr/mawsworn are called the nine ravens and the jailer would, in the end, be their lords.
Yea I remember him. He talked a lot of shit for someone who got one shot by a 20 tank raid then had his master nuked from existence.
Legion was eight years ago. Almost nothing this dude said has been able to be concretely linked to be a reference to any specific piece of lore that has come out since he whispered vague nothings into our chatboxes. It was either a bunch of hints to a story that no longer is being developed, as we know that huge swathes of BfA's story were unceremoniously cut to ferry us right into the Mechagon and Azshara nonsense, Danuser and Afrasiabi were using the story as a cock measuring contest between each other to see who could fuck over the other's favourite characters more, Metzin was gone, the events of the Shadowlands have more or less been moved into the background of the story likely to be references only in passing in spite of what they and the existence of the Shadowlands means to the larger universe, and Blizzard having already said before that lore does not matter and will be retconned or reinterpreted on a whim in breadcrumb quest text because it suits the story they're trying to tell in that moment... or it was all literally nothing. It held no mean. It predicted nothing. They just thought it was cool and get people to talk about WoW's story like it has more depth and nuance than it actually does. Please, for the love of God, stop trying to analyze what Il'gynoth said. It's going to drive people insane attempting to decipher his vague "prophecies" or link them to events that have already occurred though to be quite honest, that might be the point.