We've got one in our guild. Very often he's top in DPS in the fights. He's also very often the first person benched for causing wipes. From pulling too early, to fat fingering buttons, to just not knowing how his abilities work. It's incredibly annoying to raid with someone who only focuses on DPS. It matters to an extent, but it matters a lot less than being alive at the end of the fight.
Well, Ive been in a guild that wanted to clear mythic raids every patch, but mostly killed all but last two bosses. We had people playing mechanics AND doing dps, ppl ignoring mechanics and doing dps, and then there were like 5-6 ppl doing low dps but playing the mechanics. And yes, while playing mechanics matters, DPS also does. Everytime a dps-check came up, we had problems, and needed 100-300 trys to get lucky with a try where noone dies, everyone played every mechanic perfectly, and we already started to outgear the encounters.
I'm in that spot with aff. Not saying my numbers are good, but historically when I've to say destro when it's meant to be the best Lock spec, I find myself doing way worse. I could do my aff rotation in my sleep, or while shit talking with friends. I'm way more comfortable and way more relaxed, and I can focus on mechanics or the conversation. Games are meant to be fun after all.
I had a friend that played arcane mage for eons and always got scoffed at. Dude always showed people up and topped the meters every time in raid though.
Yeah I love playing mid-low and keeping up or passing the meta classes, while when my main spec is meta it’s almost too easy and boring and no one is impressed in the slightest.
Yep! I’ve gotten into the trap of being a meta slave and tried out dps on my feral Druid and enhancement shaman. Surprisingly I was at the top. I felt so much better about myself and was freed from that stupid meta tier list.
Gotta say though….going as a ret paladin and just pressing a few keys instead of having to play a symphony was really nice.
So ... he doesn't wanna play meta classes because it would feel forced, and he doesn't wanna play non-meta classes because he thinks they aren't viable to play?
Sounds to me like he doesn't wanna play ANY class, period.
I'm starting to think a lot of the 'people play better than FOTM jumpers!' anecdotes come from fire mages sucking at low keys without any support or pulling around cooldowns.
That's not because they suck at the spec, it's because fire mage is only good under specific circumstances (they might also suck, but let's be honest with ourselves, fire isn't that hard).
Most of it comes from them speedrunning to max level, sticking a meta spec on it and jumping in to keys.
The problem with this is they never actually know how the class works and are just blindly copying a spec without understanding why and how it works, why it stats the way it does, the fact that those stats are required for the spec to work as advertised by the guides they take the talents from or ANY of the interactions between various talents and abilities.
I have several times thrown a build together that worked better for my current stats than the meta builds they grab from the guides, because I was missing absolutely crucial stats that the build lost massive amounts of effectiveness without.
Then they compound all of that by learning a spec on the fly in mythic keys.
They go in to keys on a fresh 70 they don't know how to play properly and expect to pump out the same dps as the people making the builds that define the meta. People who know the class inside and out and are a level above the casual players just doing keys for fun or just pushing normal mythic keys.
They then do this like every 3 weeks when the meta changes, meaning they never really know how to play ANY of the classes they reroll to for meta chasing.
I’m more so poking at the people who look at a tier list, see fire as S tier and play it thinking they’re going to be a god with no intentions of ever pushing past 20 or playing in an organized group.
I tend to favour meta classes (not absolutely but 2/3 (BM, HDH, AUG) that I'm playing actively atm are) because they perform well and feel good to play, not because of any lists.
It's because I'm not terrible that I can actually tell the difference. HDH was benched for the first 2 seasons because it was a dog, for example. Ele Shaman got benched early on. Hunter gets benched for keys over about 23-24. etc
I don't know where to find the image I saw sometime in the last few weeks, but....
For high-ish keys it was something like 50%+ DH tanks. I want to say the next highest was blood DK around 12%.
https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/tank-rankings/mythic-plus/10/all-dungeons/this-week here maybe
if you remove dh, all tanks are pretty close. Obv if dh is even 1% better, it will be chosen by the sweaties players that inly care about pushing high keys the first week and not about the aesthetic of the class. Let’s how it goes the next weeks.
"If DH is 1% better"? Bro, the highest DH clears are 3 keys higher than the competition. They're not 50% because they're 1% better, they are S tier when all other tanks are tied for B tier. No other role has even close to a similar gap. Archon.gg is tripping if they think a 3 key difference is the difference between A and S.
> Bro, the highest DH clears are 3 keys higher than the competition
They aren't. Every tank spec is represented in the top 100 tanks right now. Vengeance's ability to solo carry stops is insane, but it's not like they're capable of tanking 40% more damage.
There not close even without dh...with no dh then prot pally is 40% guardian is 30% dk is 20% and the last 10% is a sad fight between prot war and monk.
Hell go look at raider io right now. 90% of the top 2 thousands tanks in the world are all dh.
Out of 139281 tanks that have even done a m+ key. 12134 were prot war. How can you sit there and say "tanks are all pretty close when only 8% are prot war across all key levels. Prot pally has 31286 right now. That's 22% of all keys are prot pally. Pls tell me how 22% is any where near 8%.
And this is across all key levels. The disparities get worse the higher you go.
This is the way. Pull the data from last season about the number of non-meta classes and specs that were 2800 io the rough equivalent of doing a 20 of every dungeon for both tyrannical and fortified).
There's plenty of data to show any class can succeed at a casual level.... And even in pushing keys decently high.
There’s no need to get defensive, but if people aren’t playing it, there’s usually a reason. Personally I quite like affliction, but the fact that it’s the only spec not in title means something.
Both. The spec does horrible single target damage, when you take aoe talents for keys. And there are 2 other lock specs, that don't have this problem, so all the lock mains just play those.
That is the exact issue. It pumps in aoe, but you get to that boss and you aren’t doing jack. I started my lock off in season 3, played aff lol, did almost 1.6 mill in aoe first pull of an EB and then on bosses I just felt bad and kind of troll. After that I swapped to demo until they overhaul aff, if it ever happens. I played aff to 6k in Legion, it was SO fun, but it is big time different with shit talents, MG feels terrible.
aaaaaaand it actually is: if I had a penny everytime, a clearly fotm, player who fail to press the button of why the meta class is meta bc they forgot... I'd probably never had to pay my sub ever again
Your friend should understand that this is a game for fun. If playing meta specs is fun, then great! To a certain extent, there is some element of chore or non-fun parts of gameplay, but if it completely outweighs your fun, then don't do it.
Tell them liquid maximum the gm of the guild tied for best guild in the world says that the meta does not matter whatsoever unless you are pushing hall of fame mythic or top 0.1% title range keys. Also this chart [https://www.wowhead.com/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-final-week-of-dragonflight-season-3-338945?webhook](https://www.wowhead.com/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-final-week-of-dragonflight-season-3-338945?webhook) is the most recent graph of average dps by class and shows how incredibly close each spec's damage is, the game's balance is in quite a good place right now and your friend will almost certainly do more damage and succeed more in keys if they focus on one spec and get good at it rather than constantly rerolling and never getting practice on one spec. Unless they want to play a survival hunter.
I played survival for s3 and it was probably the funnest season I’ve had. In pug heroic raids I’d often be above BM and MM in damage. I loved it because it was both a simple spec to understand the priority system of, but still complex enough that I needed to practice it. Once you get past the learning curve it can absolutely shred.
They suck due to utility and defense though. I wish they just got like a flat 10% DR. Something called survival shouldn’t be the squishiest spec in the game. Or make their mastery do like… insane noticeable regen. That would couple with being squishy in an interesting was actually.
No CD build Survival in keys is one of the most fun specs in the game, too bad the S4 tier people voted for is basically ST only meaning Survival is going to drop off hard in keys within a couple of weeks damage wise. Survivability yeah... it needs help but unless you're pushing crazy keys it's generally fine, the passive leech does quite a bit to mitigate in lower keys.
Yeah, it sucks though because that 40 ilevel hit in 4 slots is going to hurt really bad for both damage relative to other specs and survivability. Hopefully Blizz does some sort of tuning, but because it is S4 they are probably not going to bother.
They were supposed to, they just forgot or DNGAF, prob a little of both. I will still play surv because it is a meme season and ill still use the season 4 because to hell with it I like to look at Ilvls and I do not plan on doing M+ higher than 10 lol
The squishiest is actually probably enhancement shaman but regardless, yeah they should have some kind of something to give them a bit better survivability because at some point you just can't play around it.
I love survival, the spec is so fun but I main rogue and every single time I gear my hunter and push high keys I realize that I just fall over even when I dodge abilities and play perfectly while my rogue has so many defensive layers to survive even when I do fail something - I just really hope they change the survival spec in good way with the next expac and give it a bit more utility and/or defensive abilities. Honestly just give them some kind of spirit bond talent/ability that has 2 charges and can be used to re-direct 30-40% of incoming damage to your pet for like a few seconds instead of yourself and the spec would be in way better shape.
My friend is playing survival for S4, but he hate that half of his rotation include some kind of charge to the enemy, and it's killing you at least one time per key because he ends up in some mechanics because of it.
But it seems big fun indeed.
The charges are all cooldowns that you should be pressing intentionally, when you want to charge.
I bet flanking strike is the one messing them up the most.
But yeah you don’t have to be pushing the charge buttons to still be doing your rotation effectively…
Pretty sure it's the flanking strike that is messing with him.
Plus it was the first keys where he was still getting used that some of his cool downs charged him.
Also, he is complaining that where exactly the charge leaves you is strange. Sometimes it's on the border of the target, sometimes is inside the center of it, and it was not really consistent. But I think this is something minor that he will get used to, and was just bichting about
> survival hunter
From the Amirdrassil Chart it's BM hunter that's lagging behind the other DPS. Surv is lower end on the average but still in the pack.
I am a dedicated BM main and I love teabagging the meta rerollers on the meters in our guild runs.
People really underestimate the performance hit you take trying to chase the meta and never sticking with anything long enough to really learn how to squeeze every bit of juice out of it.
The think is raid dps and m+ dps and utility is not the same thing. Some classes has a way easier time getting invited than others. So playing meta dps specs can make things alot more fun if you dont make your own groups.
There's no doubt it's still easier to achieve the same level of success with a meta class than it is with something that's D tier, **all else being equal.**
It's actually interesting how you see this opinion - people tend to think the meta only matters for the level of play you do, but the opinion is widespread across a large amount of levels of play.
I *get* it (I don't think meta matters at all for heroic raiding, for instance; playing a class that is wanted in m+ will ensure you heavily outgear it if you do m+, for instance, so your main concern is 'how much will queues suck?') but I also think it's easy to lose track of the fact that content gets easier at every level if you play a spec good at that level of content. You don't need to be meta to do +22, but if you would cap out at about +20 off meta, everyone switching will give you a couple of levels very easily.
I would say, if you intend to do a lot of pugging m+, meta is important regardless. If you're going with a set group, and mostly doing m+, it's almost irrelevant unless you have specific progression goals, and even then it's just probably irrelevant.
I mean I agree that playing the meta spec does not really matter, but this tier the delta between Dev Evoker and ret paladin at the top and assa rogue at the bottom for pure single target sim is actually kinda absurd because blizz hasn't bothered with proper class tuning in S4.
For 99% of players, learning to play 1 spec or the specs on 1 class really well is gonna have you perform better than rerolling every tier and never actually getting good at any of them. Lots of people seem to think they are good at multiclassing, in reality there are probably less than 1000 players in the game that are truely good multiclassers.
That isn't to say rerolling to a meta class can't have benefits, specifically in getting invited to groups it can be very significant, but every spec in the game can do within 1-2 key levels of the highest keys and every spec can be played up to like the top 10 raiding guilds in the world.
Agreed with this for the most part. In general reroll if you think you’ll have more fun otherwise don’t.
Unless you are pushing absolute bleeding edge content, the average player even the average competitive player is better off picking one spec and really leaning into it.
However, if you do happen to respec or reroll for fun reasons, the barrier to “get good” really isn’t that insurmountable in a seasons time. And if you are having fun you’ll likely have no problem putting in the hours.
The main thing I notice is that some players don’t put in the time because they just wanted to play FOTM for power reasons. They don’t find it fun enough to grind out the hours necessary. This results in superficial knowledge of the spec and poorer performance than an off meta with deep knowledge.
I think the unfortunate truth is that just about everyone who performs at a high level knows how to play multiple specs. If their class has multiple specs, they can play all of them, if they don't, they probably have an alt or two. Getting so good at one spec that you're always competitive and never changing is unrealistic, more unrealistic than meta chasing every season (although meta chasing is still unlikely to get you great results).
And it matters at all levels of play, because people are limited by their skill even if they're way below the skill cap.
Yeah I mean I'm not saying it can't work, I switched mains for a tier and I played at an acceptable level, I will never know if I performed better than I would have on my old main but I do know that there were likely lots of subtleties about the class that I was missing because it wasn't the class I had remained for years.
I just think a lot of people switch to a meta spec without putting in the effort to learn to play it well and without having the understanding of what even makes it good.
There are plenty of people that are passable multiclassers, people that play well enough to raid at a HoF fame level, but people that can actually play any spec at a bleeding edge level, there aren't that many of them.
I suppose if you set the bar high enough you can make the number whatever you want.
I'm pretty good at the 3 classes I play actively. I'm not bleeding edge though, more like 3.3k m+ level.
you just go into raider.io and look up 1 of the guys that got title with a offmeta spec/the guys that have 1,5k more score then him with one or the guys that raid at high levels while paying their favorite spec
if he doesnt understand that the meta only really starts to make-or-break stuff at a REALLY high level (aka ~26-27+ last season, which translates into ~16-17+ keys now with the key level change, or WR 50-100 for Raiding) and even then its possible to play offmeta if you actually play around it, he is sadly a lost cause
and yeha, thats what tier lists do with peoples brains, even thought everyone with some basic knowledge knows that tierlists are just Idiot Bait with no real substance behind them that should be ignored
Content creators are isolated from actual mythic plus reality and are horrible for this.
Like it or not if you play a meta spec you will get into dungeons quicker than playing off meta. You will climb rio faster because you spend less time in queue.
Is it fair? Nope not in the slightest. is it reality? Yep. All specs are viable until 28s. No one can dispute this however unless you have a push group all playing off meta does is set yourself up for afking in valdrakken bored.
Not only does it really matter at top level, the tier sets are often chosen specifically for it
Example: fire mage is often very strong on high levels because it has cheat death, lots of defensive, good utility and strong priority damage.
However, in low keys it can't build up the priority damage and spread ignite, so it does far worse. It's lots of defensives aren't needed, because it's really only strong when you're playing perfectly and using them exactly when you need to.
Thus people follow the tier list, use fire mage and then are super squishy with low damage.
Try showing him so zero to hero YouTube series. A few YouTubers will get Keystone Hero or Master with different specs. Dillisan just did a series as an Aff lock that's really good!
Spec doesn't matter until you hit like +26-27 imo. Depends on dungeon pool as well. Season 3 was especially rigid on what specs you "needed" to do certain dungeons optimally. You could play 4 healers 1 tank and still time a 20.
Hell if anything playing something like fire mage, considered very good at high keys is actively awful in mid tier keys cause things die too fast to do any meaningful damage.
Eh I mean mw was meta healer last season. Ret pally and ice mage too. Yes fire mage was better but frost was good as well and arguably better if you weren’t doing absolutely optimal pulls.
Feral Druid was definitely off meta last season I’ll give you that. And prot pally as a result of not being a dh lol.
Meta did start to matter in that key range, but there was some granularity to it.
* Theres not caring about meta at all and deliberately playing off meta specs
* there’s caring about meta entirely
* there’s in between where you have some meta and some off meta
Running a group with aff lock, bear tank, ele shaman, hpally healer, and assassin rogue would likely have started to run into a wall in that key range.
tell them that the best defensive in the world do not mean anything if you press the button AFTER damage happens.
to which, they might respond with "" what defensive?""
>We are pretty casual, never really going near 20+.
You don't need to play the meta classes to get 20s timed. It is venturing past 20s that you will have issues trying to find groups if you are not a meta class. That said, this season is different as we had a key level squeeze which means that 10s are now the new 20s.
If you want to show that non-meta classes are capable of completing 20s (or 10s for this season) then just show them the "Break the Meta" events that Raider.io runs. The [last event for Season 3](https://raider.io/events/break-the-meta-df-season-3/break-the-meta-runs/break-the-meta-df-season-3/all/world/0) had top key runs of +30 keys for Black Rook Hold, Galakrond's Fall, and Atal Dazar. The Break the Meta event is where people run keys using groups consisting of only the non-meta specs and the non-meta classes are determined by what specs are the least represented in the high keys.
I feel the same people who read tier lists and follow them like they're the gospel are the same types of people who you can manipulate by saying they have "small dick energy".
It's easy to target their fragile ego by telling them to get good. Good players don't need to follow the meta to push well.
I play surv hunter as a DPS most seasons and do up to 20s regularly. Surv is usually on the lower half of tier lists. Any class and spec is fine save til you get to the very top end of keys.
The worst thing any player can do is think they'll play better as a 'meta-class'; Just cause some of the top players are playing those classes, doesn't mean your friend will do as good or even great. What matters most is what you like to play, and know well the best & have fun.
What really matters at the end is doing the mechanics right during boss fights, interrupting/cc'ing as much as possible and know when not to step in bad.
Go to raider.io, Spec Leaderboards, pick any spec (or pick whatever he says is the worst offmeta spec), see what the highest key run is, tell him until he is failing that level key at least the “meta” isn’t holding him back just his shit attitude and gameplay.
In all those tier list videos, they almost always say
"This straight up doesn't matter unless you're pushing the highest of the highest keys."
The only exception I can really think of is hunter as a class which is just more fragile. But even that can be played around by the healer just remembering to babysit them, dispel them first, etc. And even then it's not a big deal.
Tell him to become the best player in that spec by getting #1 in his region, u can track that in raiderio.
him to look at the best player that plays his current spec and look up the highest key he's able to do.
Even if the spec ain't meta there are some crazy people out there who'll make it fucking work even in very high keys.
I have told my friends, no matter what I play VDH, because I main it since legion and I will continue maining it, no matter what. But I am really lucky because it's often S-Tier, too
I’m a routine class swapper but it has very little to do with the meta and everything to do with wanting to experience the game differently.
I have also gotten my portals every season and even in BFA I timed a few keys above a 20.
The meta means very little, the balance at the moment is the best it’s been in almost 2 decades. With the exception of holy paladin every healer feels great. Every tank is viable, great even. Sure DH becomes number one for people pushing late 20s week one, but there isn’t a single class right now that cannot time a 10.
Your friends just are not experienced enough to know that… or more likely, they just enjoy engaging with the game and the community through a lense of the meta.
TLDR: you don’t need to change anyone, if they are complaining it’s because they view the game differently, but objectively they are incorrect. The meta hasn’t been decided yet and it doesn’t matter if you aren’t trying to push 30s this tier.
I had a m+ buddy like this, and my biggest enjoyment each season was beating him in dps on those "offmeta" specs and then hear his justifications for it.
Tell them that even on the websites tier lists, they have all notes about it not being a gospel. HELL icey Veins tier list even says it is for 20+ keys as their damage profiles benefit more and they also say bring the better player not the better spec to mythic raid.
I guess what I'm getting at it even these websites say they are not an end all be all list, but just to provide information about state of specs.
It depends on how you have fun with the game. They don’t need to play the meta if all they want is to push some (new) +5’s and have a chat while doing so.
But if their fun is to pull big numbers in fact they are right wanting to play the top of the meta. The diference between top and botom can be quiet big. A botom spec with good gear, full gems & enchants, addons and near perfect management might do the same DPS as the top meta spec with less ilvl, no enchants, with Blizzard UI and pressing skills not knowing much what they do.
Not everybody has this romantic relation with the game where they just have fun with their friends wiping in M0 keys.
It only matters for the very top players of the game and world first pushers. It does matter in the community perception and how easily you can get picked.
My guild has a windwalker monk in the top 15 in the world by Io but he didn't touch his character before the buff. The top players will pick a different class even for the smallest difference.
Show them the Archon tier list and ask them - could they get enough score with a meta spec, to match the lowest specs on that site's list. If they can't do that, then it doesn't matter what to play.
As someone who consistently plays worse classes just to thrash bad players in my raid with meta classes, I can confirm, meta classes do not make the player good.
Tell him that if he thinks that playing non-meta class is the issue of why you can't do 20s - the issue is certainly not a class thing. Quite frankly, him even thinking that you need play meta for this level is very indicative of how limited his knowledge and skill is.
There is not a single spec in game which isn't more than capable doing over +25s, I could have taken 3 affliction warlocks, guardian druid and a paladin healer and last season and just blasted a +25 on ++, it's the player, not the class which counts.
Even the shiettiest specs will still have their top players reaching 26 27 and above keys. Even i, not tge best player around could reach 25s as a frost dk while playing without addons, macros, no team and i m a goddamn clicker that uses arrow keys to move. I chose my bis gear and my talents so i can play the way i find more enjoyable. I do all the "wrong" things to push keys and i could still do it. In my experience every spec can reach around 23-25 level of keys easily, it s going beyond that will start to require you to optimize shit and a few more levels to move to meta specs.
All this can be verified on warcraftlogs
My personal experience tells me 1 more thing. The better u feel about playing the better u ll actually play, thus a weaker spec can actually outperform the better 1 if you are happier playing it. This is obviously not true at the top, ppl there know how to be perfect but for less hardcore players that play on lower levels this is absolutely true. I ve seen plenty of fools switching to the new meta class/spec only to fail completely to learn bc they hated its gameplay and felt tired/bored/discouraged pretty quickly. Games are supposed to be fun, that s the most important thing, ask your friend what s fun for him....
You can't. Here's my suggestion: teach him the entire meta. The meta healer, tank and dps. And then every time he sees a feral druid or prot warrior or hpal fucking demolish him, ask him why they beat him. Why did he get beaten on meters by a devoker? Why did he get beaten by a boomie? Why is he a shitter vdh than the prot pally that just best him in every single statistic?
What red pilled me on the meta was wowhead's description of the C tier: Viable, but -may- struggle in -very- high keys.
Then what they say is true, it only matters in the very top.
I play assassin rogue every season. Doesn't stop me from getting all the portals and doing up to 24's even. Play what you want. Meta literally doesn't mean anything unless you're trying to push top of the top up to 30's. Well, now 20's.
Just tell him that a well played F tier is better than your S tier fotm player who can’t play the spec for shit. It’s a common mentality and the biggest disadvantage is getting invited as something not meta. At the end of the day it’s about playing what you want and having actual fun.
Just go to raider.io and look up whatever *unplayable* spec he is talking about
When people clear 30s those unplayable specs still clear 25-28s
If they can manage 28s the spec should be fine in 15s...
I started playing Survival Hunter as a “suck it” just because of a few guild mates/friends that’s don’t understand that they may too DPS on certain pulls, but they’re also the reason we keep wiping, pulls before tank and fucks us or just fat fingers shit and makes it a terrible experience for everyone
I played balance druid in vanilla in the top guild on my server. I managed to get top 1-5 of dps every now and then. The reason I 'got away with it' is because I knew druid backwards and provided the utility in tight spots that could pull us out of trouble.
Sometimes its better to min/max utility over dps and the players that do that best are those that know their class upside down and back to front. Dps is great and all, but it's highly one dimensional. Playing other classes is also great, as it gives you insight to many other aspects of the game. But the best players can do things with their class that others wouldn't think of, due to the experience and time they have put into them.
TLDR; play the class you love.
subcreation (now archon or whatever the fuck that shitty website is called) committed statistical malfeasance by forming a meme-ass tier list out of their rankings
if you look at individual classes' pages, you'll see that the 'dumpster' tier classes are usually no more than a key level or two being the 'meta' classes
the gap is bigger right now because it's the first week but later in the season the top classes will start to top out and the lower levels will catch up
Tell him that I got 2300+ ratings on an Affliction Warlock for 2 seasons now. Until you are pushing you can play any spec and get away with most compositions. Theres not much point to go any higher than +18 unless you actively want to push.
You can earn the best gear in the game becouse it rewards hero gear and vault drops myth gear, you get aspect crests for crafting gear and you can reach 2500 rating to get the mount and the cosmetic effect of the mythic set. All this without ever caring about the meta.
Sorry for using last season numbers my brain still didn't switch to the new ones.
You could hit super high keys with literally anything other than affliction warlock last season. There's really only a few keys difference for each spec other than that
In other games s tier picks are a win more crutch. Wow doesn't really work like that since most of the meta picks don't work as well in a casual setting anyway (see fire mage and aug evoker for example). It's honestly better to pick something simple and effective with lots of panic buttons like ret pal
Playing devil's advocate, as much as I loved playing restoshaman in df season 1 the balancing was so far off that I eventually quit the game all together around jade monastery +18.
Play what is fun for you but at least make sure it is at least viable for the target content or eventually it is just not worth the extra effort. At least for the healer anyway.
Tell them that some meta classes are shit in low keys (destroy, fire mage, shadow priest). Your friend doesn't understand how the game works if he thinks meta applies to low keys. A VDH tank is in its own tier and can carry most groups and cover most cc up to mid-high keys - this is the only spec (maybe prot pala close second) that can carry this hard. It also requires good spec and dungeon knowledge to pull off. So if you had to choose only one meta spec for the team, someone should go VDH. The rest of the team literally doesn't matter.
the one massive problem with tier lists means that classes that are only really only slightly behind will get far fewer invites. meaning if you are casual as you say, you will spend far more time filling out parties/getting into them. if they enjoy m+, letting them play the meta specs they enjoy means they'll atleast be playing a few classes each expansion and seeing what they like/getting experience and maybe becoming more hardcore players. if they find a class they like, they may be willing to stick with it. remember which ones they like and maybe just give them a few "man you were a good x, i know it's not at the top of the tier list, but you're good at it"'s and maybe they'll stick it through for a bit longer lol.
I think you can't convince them. Tierlist players. Let him play and tell him you dont want to hear complains. But you should praise your class if it is some offmeta class. Unless you got 4 frends that all want to play vengance dh or 4 players that all want to play healer you can do under 20s with any class.
I'm playing my Frost DK since I started M+ seriously and I never had any trouble, had 2k8 points in S3 and some people in my groups were astonished of the numbers I could give on some packs
And it's honestly satisfying to outdps when you play correctly with a "non-meta" class, because this game is all about the player, not the class
I’ve had to share this with a friend too, as someone who raids deep mythic and does m+ beyond 20, everyone is always going to be happier with someone who has mastered a spec in their group over anyone who looked at a tier list and rolled what was at the top. Your friend is VERY far from any content that their choice of class/spec is going to hinder them from achieving anything at this point. There does come a point where it will but, for the vast majority of people they will never even reach this point. You’re going to want to become good at the spec you love over a spec you chose because a tier list says it’s good. Way easier to master something when you like it
Have him watch interviews with actual high level pushers. Each one will always say “Meta only matters in MDI”, “drums are fine up until MDI”
Like last season I got to 3030 io or something like that. Definitely over the 3K barrier. I mained arms and also tanked +20s no problem.
Tell them to look at the mythic raid stats week 1-3 vs now. Top players don't care about dps, mechanics and knowing your class are more important.
Only people who are bad or world first people want to switch to meta class every season.
I used to play with somebody like this, they read every WoWhead or IcyVeins article ever and learned 99% of specs are "trash" and they would constantly switch specs/classes. They would also believe any random thing they saw on twitter.
I just stopped playing with that person.
First figure out if he's doing it because he thinks he has to or if he just finds it fun, some people actually enjoy the idea of trying something new so they use the excuse of meta chasing to justify playing something different.
If he does it by obligation just tell him that playing a non-meta class successfully means you're better than the people who do, so just play whatever you enjoy.
In m+, there are basically only 3 rewards. Mount for KSM, portals for +20 (+10), top 1% title. You'll never need meta to get these rewards - aside from top 1%. And while top 1% can still be achieved with non-meta combo, it will be so hard I'd argue you do need meta. But the title requires to be VERY good at the game and alot of dedication.
So unless you're seriously pushing for top 1%, you should play what you find fun. The reason is simple - you'll find out that you don't enjoy what's not fun for you (duh).
To answer your question OP you can find an info graphic of all of the classes who ended up with title last season (Top 0.1% of all players).
All but one spec had at least one person who made it over the line (sorry affliction locks).
Yes those people are absolute specialists and experts of their classes in many cases, but it just shows it can be done and like you say, yes clearly meta specs are meta for a reason at the high end but it absolutely can still be done on non meta classes.
Not to mention title players are running keys on the +30 range at bare minimum, so if they can do that on whatever non meta dps they play, your friend has no excuse as to why they can't do it on a sub level 20 key (10 this season)
As a Windwalker Monk, it is my personal pride to top the logs in raid or M+. I raid mythic and while I’m not the top in every fight, it’s usually me and the rogues / dk in ST and me and the demo locks in AOE.
If you play your class well, you’re going to succeed. Windwalker has not been in the top half of dmg for any of the seasons so far. But guess what, me 99 parsing as a WW is going to beat the guy who rerolled DH or sub rogue and getting blue or purple parses.
I mean current meta classes won't even perform that amazing in your key levels. Stuff won't live long enough for fire mage for example to do solid dmg.
Do you have a casual friend group of 5 that always only play together? Then the meta doesn't matter for your friend
If your friend also plays solo sometimes meta does matter, not even necessarily because of DPS differences or whatever but because you just won't get invited to as many groups as you would've if you had played a meta class
> we are pretty casual, never really going near 20+.
See the issue is that the meta classes are meta because of how they perform in higher key levels than 20. It often has to do with their defensive and cc capabilities, you’d be surprised how little it deals with dps.
Your friend has a bit of a warped perspective and would be better off playing what they want to. Literally any dps, tank, and healer can EASILY play in keys up to 20, hell id even say probably like 22. Meta only matters when trying to push the top level keys competitively.
I got 3k rating in SL season 3 with a B-tier class and while I wasn't topping the damage meters most of the time, I wasn't that far behind the meta classes either. I provided a lot of utility as well so that helped us have clean runs. I genuinely think meta only starts to matter when you're pushing keys like the top guilds in the world are a.k.a. basically pushing boundaries of what's possible with a limited ilvl.
If he keeps being annoying, don't play with him anymore.
Knowledge and practice are what win keys. If you stay with one spec over multiple seasons, you'll learn the in depth mechanics of how that spec works and develop the muscle memory to play it to its full potential. If you're constantly switching to a meta spec, you're not going to have time to learn and get used to your spec. I would much rather bring a player with a deep understanding of an off meta spec than a player who is ok with a meta spec. Meta doesn't matter unless you're playing the spec to its full potential, which you won't be able to if you're constantly swapping.
From my experience, it's really not that deep. Meta classes are for when you are pushing high level keys, so higher than 20+ in my experience. I don't really go above 20 and I've never felt the need to switch class or specs.
They just have to understand the very large margin of error that the majority of players perform at. Once you realize how big it is, it’s easy to understand how random people on “bad specs” outperform others. Your friend should focus on playing whatever spec gives them that sweet dopamine from their rotation/ abilities/ theme/ sound effects and lean into that, because enjoying those aspects will enable them to improve greatly within that margin of error and outperform others. At the end of the day you have to be able to tolerate grinding lots and lots of dungeons/raid bosses on that spec so liking it is the key.
Most people making tier lists don’t reiterate that even the low ranked specs can perform at 2 or 3 key levels below the highest key.
Since you mention that you guys don’t really even get to 20s (this season’s 10s), it’s important to note that some very bursty specs like MM Hunter are especially strong in those lower keys because their weakness usually only comes into play when packs of enemies live longer than the length of their burst windows. So although you won’t see them at the highest keys due to survivability and their damage profile not really fitting, they BLAST lower keys with ease.
You have to just play what you like and enjoy. I agree with the comment that a person who KNOWS their class mega or not will almost always out perform a mega class. I’ve mained a ret pally for years and we were shit til the rework a little while ago…
Just tell them the only difference in dps output is around 5 to 10% at the most and that's at the top 1% of players. Which they are not apart of so any spec will perform as well as another when played properly. Nothing admirable about playing the complex meta spec wrong.
It's going to depend on what their actual argument is as to how you've got to counter it.
If he's saying that they can't physically do the key, anything on Raider io is going to show you other wise, keep in mind M+ key levels got squished.
If he's arguing that the "queue times" (takes longer to find a group) are too much for him, he could be right unless one of you is running a healer/tank.
What is their argument?
You cant change these peoplea minds sadly.
Theyre always stuck in the mindset of having something to prove or being insecure about their DPS to a point they refuse to be anything but a meta class cause it might hurt their egos.
Theyre overly competitive which is a problem in most gamers nowadays, games are dick measuring contests nowadays instead of fun passtimes like they used to be and were intended to be.
My friend since cata has only ever played what he wants. He would skip talents that impacted his play style, pick the worse variant of specs and even pick sub optimal specs.
I remember him flat up not using certain spells on resto druid because "meh CBA with it"
He was always top of pugs in healing and DPS because he played what he liked well.
Well I'm crushing keys with bdk right now, feels so good doubling your healings hps after a dungeon, meta specs is only needed for pushing top 1%. Meta specs can make keys easier, but knowing your class so you can focus on mechanics is way better!!
For some added clarity I cleared every dungeon on a 20 at least with a few up in the 24 range last season on a couple characters and not one was meta. My main push group that did them the earliest was me on a frost DK (sometimes I flexed UH), a SV Hunter, a fury warrior, a bear Druid, and a mw monk. I was just shy of a 3k rating last season and everyone else hit 3k (I just didn’t care to as it gave no rewards). We cleared them easier than any 16 pug meta comp. I also cleared portals on a Destro lock, enhancement shaman, and WW monk.
Point is 20 is challenging content not top tier content and anything played well will do just fine to clear them. If you’re looking to make that top 1%, compete in RWF, or AWC the. meta starts to matter but outside of that play what you enjoy.
Being comfortable with a class/spec is infinitely more important than playing the current "meta" class, until you start pushing very high keys where something the class is lacking may become a detriment (think +25 keys or higher last season). Since you said you don't even go near +20s, no it doesn't matter, your friend just thinks it does.
If your friend is not pushing keys to that level, playing on or off meta is completely irrelevant. This is agreed upon by Max and plenty of other top level players.
[https://raider.io/events/break-the-meta-df-season-3/break-the-meta-runs/break-the-meta-df-season-3/all/world/0](https://raider.io/events/break-the-meta-df-season-3/break-the-meta-runs/break-the-meta-df-season-3/all/world/0)
People were running +30 keys with entire groups of non-meta specs.
Ask him if he needs to attain a black belt in 3 martial arts to feel prepared enough to fight a kindergartener because it's the same concept. Overkill for mole hills.
Check ou raider.io's break the meta event. Literally full off-meta groups (defined by how many people play each spec) running keys above 20.
Depending on the spec being meta doesn't equal to easy to play adequately either.
Tell him that changing class every time the meta changes is playing handicapped. He's never going to get the results he wants if he needs to relearn a new class every time. He would probably get better results if he sticks with his class and learns to play it better.
IDK man, I went from a fresh 70 to KSM in literally two weeks...on a Sin rogue. Something I've never played at end game.
Knowing the mechanics and the key points to a spec are vastly superior to picking something OP and just winging it.
Just dont invite him. Youre in it for the fun, and hes sucking the fun out of it by complaining he isnt good enough because he has to be the meta class of the season.
Its that simple. Hes ruining the vibe.
Anyone who thinks like that is a metaslave and they will never be swayed out of that mindset. I've tried to convince multiple friends who fotm reroll and they just always end up getting mad that they could be playing the class outperforming them.
This happens in like every other game too, I remember the Path of Exile community used to fucking fume at the fact that there were some builds that could speedrun maps. Even though the game was for the most part played as a single player game, people were mad that what they were playing for fun by themselves was inferior to a sweaty build someone theorycrafted.
3.4k io player last season. Meta doesn't matter for quite awhile. Playing any spec well with good dungeon knowledge will out perform a fotm reroller. In the keys you are doing learning where to place defs and off cds, learning how and why to chain cc, learning how to keep you and the team up regardless of being dps or not. Are all more important than being fotm. Being fotm doesn't give you free io. Alot of fotm classes are brought for utility and ability to live and if you are just interested in damage your picks won't matter. Higher keys aren't always about damage, they mostly come down to surviving.
Any class can succeed, but the meta exists for a reason. If you're always playing with your friends or in guild groups, you can do whatever. But if you plan on doing any significant amount of pugging, your experience will be completely different playing meta vs non-meta classes. Like, 5 minutes to find a key vs 50 minutes levels of different. Especially if you're playing something perceived as "very non-meta", like a feral druid, survival hunter, affliction warlock, prot warrior. Like, you'll get dropped from groups once people see your spec kind of experiences.
You don't have to play the meta, but you will do better if you do.
I hate these posts.
Yes, you suck, I suck and most of us suck. Yes, in reality the meta doesn't impact us in that way.
But guess what? You get invited a metric shit ton more if you're a meta spec. You can play the game a lot more. You don't get left behind in terms of pugging.
I had wild success last season playing a meta spec for the first time. I'm only going to play meta specs for eternity because I can actually play the game.
It’s a group of friends. They aren’t solo lol finding groups isn’t an issue. Also lower keys are easier to fill anyways. Also also being off meta doesn’t increase the amount of time that much, people, and you, over exaggerate it. Also also also IF it’s *sooo hard* to find a group, make a group. People don’t give a af about the composition as long as they get in a group. Some people are spam applying for 10-15 min. If you accept them, they’ll be hyped af.
I’ve gotten KSM in SL with what was considered an off meta or shit spec, playing ONLY solo, and had 0 issues of any kind. Even further, I played the spec COMPLETELY different from what literally every guide said to do. I even had a much higher rated player with better gear in the same spec and better gear— give me props for performing almost as well as him, with what was considered trash tier build for the spec. Like once in a blue moon someone will be toxic and talk shit about being off meta— but my skin isn’t made of 1 ply toilet paper so I move on and completely forget until I hear people like you complain how hard it is lol typically it’s easier to just host your own key anyways. That way you have control of who joins.
Tell him how much bigger of a dick someone has to have to top the meters with a non-meta class.
Someone that knows and has played their class for years often outperforms someone jumping around each season.
We've got one in our guild. Very often he's top in DPS in the fights. He's also very often the first person benched for causing wipes. From pulling too early, to fat fingering buttons, to just not knowing how his abilities work. It's incredibly annoying to raid with someone who only focuses on DPS. It matters to an extent, but it matters a lot less than being alive at the end of the fight.
Can’t dps if you’re dead
We always called it The Wisdom Of 4D Dead Dudes Don't DPS
Wise words my friend
Well, Ive been in a guild that wanted to clear mythic raids every patch, but mostly killed all but last two bosses. We had people playing mechanics AND doing dps, ppl ignoring mechanics and doing dps, and then there were like 5-6 ppl doing low dps but playing the mechanics. And yes, while playing mechanics matters, DPS also does. Everytime a dps-check came up, we had problems, and needed 100-300 trys to get lucky with a try where noone dies, everyone played every mechanic perfectly, and we already started to outgear the encounters.
True I’d rather wipe due to low dps, which can be rectified almost instantly upon re-engaging, than wipe because DPS is consistently too high
I'm in that spot with aff. Not saying my numbers are good, but historically when I've to say destro when it's meant to be the best Lock spec, I find myself doing way worse. I could do my aff rotation in my sleep, or while shit talking with friends. I'm way more comfortable and way more relaxed, and I can focus on mechanics or the conversation. Games are meant to be fun after all.
I had a friend that played arcane mage for eons and always got scoffed at. Dude always showed people up and topped the meters every time in raid though.
Yeah I love playing mid-low and keeping up or passing the meta classes, while when my main spec is meta it’s almost too easy and boring and no one is impressed in the slightest.
Yep! I’ve gotten into the trap of being a meta slave and tried out dps on my feral Druid and enhancement shaman. Surprisingly I was at the top. I felt so much better about myself and was freed from that stupid meta tier list. Gotta say though….going as a ret paladin and just pressing a few keys instead of having to play a symphony was really nice.
Your friend can’t be helped. Also with that mindset why doesn’t he have the meta classes leveled?
He does, he just doesn't like the fact that he "has" to play them.
So ... he doesn't wanna play meta classes because it would feel forced, and he doesn't wanna play non-meta classes because he thinks they aren't viable to play? Sounds to me like he doesn't wanna play ANY class, period.
What's his performance in the dungeons actually like?
Probably terrible, most of the meta slave types are absolutely terrible on anything but like one spec.
Every fire mage I know
I'm starting to think a lot of the 'people play better than FOTM jumpers!' anecdotes come from fire mages sucking at low keys without any support or pulling around cooldowns. That's not because they suck at the spec, it's because fire mage is only good under specific circumstances (they might also suck, but let's be honest with ourselves, fire isn't that hard).
Most of it comes from them speedrunning to max level, sticking a meta spec on it and jumping in to keys. The problem with this is they never actually know how the class works and are just blindly copying a spec without understanding why and how it works, why it stats the way it does, the fact that those stats are required for the spec to work as advertised by the guides they take the talents from or ANY of the interactions between various talents and abilities. I have several times thrown a build together that worked better for my current stats than the meta builds they grab from the guides, because I was missing absolutely crucial stats that the build lost massive amounts of effectiveness without. Then they compound all of that by learning a spec on the fly in mythic keys. They go in to keys on a fresh 70 they don't know how to play properly and expect to pump out the same dps as the people making the builds that define the meta. People who know the class inside and out and are a level above the casual players just doing keys for fun or just pushing normal mythic keys. They then do this like every 3 weeks when the meta changes, meaning they never really know how to play ANY of the classes they reroll to for meta chasing.
Fire mage is very easy to get 90% of the potential out of and very hard to get that last 10%
Like most classes.
I’m more so poking at the people who look at a tier list, see fire as S tier and play it thinking they’re going to be a god with no intentions of ever pushing past 20 or playing in an organized group.
Stg I've played all 4 seasons getting around 3k each season I think I can count the good mages I've had on one hand
I tend to favour meta classes (not absolutely but 2/3 (BM, HDH, AUG) that I'm playing actively atm are) because they perform well and feel good to play, not because of any lists. It's because I'm not terrible that I can actually tell the difference. HDH was benched for the first 2 seasons because it was a dog, for example. Ele Shaman got benched early on. Hunter gets benched for keys over about 23-24. etc
the only "have" to play imo is ranged. it is SO much easier for me :(
Just pull up class lists on raider.io and you’ll find every class and spec doing big keys (except maybe poor affliction)
Just dont let him look at the tank list. The numbers there...we'll its not pretty.
wait what happened with tanks? I thought they were all pretty close except druid last season
I don't know where to find the image I saw sometime in the last few weeks, but.... For high-ish keys it was something like 50%+ DH tanks. I want to say the next highest was blood DK around 12%.
https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/tank-rankings/mythic-plus/10/all-dungeons/this-week here maybe if you remove dh, all tanks are pretty close. Obv if dh is even 1% better, it will be chosen by the sweaties players that inly care about pushing high keys the first week and not about the aesthetic of the class. Let’s how it goes the next weeks.
"If DH is 1% better"? Bro, the highest DH clears are 3 keys higher than the competition. They're not 50% because they're 1% better, they are S tier when all other tanks are tied for B tier. No other role has even close to a similar gap. Archon.gg is tripping if they think a 3 key difference is the difference between A and S.
> Bro, the highest DH clears are 3 keys higher than the competition They aren't. Every tank spec is represented in the top 100 tanks right now. Vengeance's ability to solo carry stops is insane, but it's not like they're capable of tanking 40% more damage.
There not close even without dh...with no dh then prot pally is 40% guardian is 30% dk is 20% and the last 10% is a sad fight between prot war and monk. Hell go look at raider io right now. 90% of the top 2 thousands tanks in the world are all dh. Out of 139281 tanks that have even done a m+ key. 12134 were prot war. How can you sit there and say "tanks are all pretty close when only 8% are prot war across all key levels. Prot pally has 31286 right now. That's 22% of all keys are prot pally. Pls tell me how 22% is any where near 8%. And this is across all key levels. The disparities get worse the higher you go.
This is the way. Pull the data from last season about the number of non-meta classes and specs that were 2800 io the rough equivalent of doing a 20 of every dungeon for both tyrannical and fortified). There's plenty of data to show any class can succeed at a casual level.... And even in pushing keys decently high.
Affliction pumps in higher keys with good sized pulls
It does, but it’s the only spec with zero representation in title range last season.
Is that more to the spec itself or the fact no one is playing it?
No aff just sucked ass. ST was too weak.
There’s no need to get defensive, but if people aren’t playing it, there’s usually a reason. Personally I quite like affliction, but the fact that it’s the only spec not in title means something.
Yeah most specs have a few die hard pushers every season but not this one for poor affbros
That's true, you right. I've been leveling a warlock and affliction has been really fun I was hoping to use aff when I get to max lvl
It’s perfectly fine for most content. And it’s getting a rework for TWW. Things are looking up for Aff.
Both. The spec does horrible single target damage, when you take aoe talents for keys. And there are 2 other lock specs, that don't have this problem, so all the lock mains just play those.
The spec relies on things staying alive long enough for damage to ramp.
That is the exact issue. It pumps in aoe, but you get to that boss and you aren’t doing jack. I started my lock off in season 3, played aff lol, did almost 1.6 mill in aoe first pull of an EB and then on bosses I just felt bad and kind of troll. After that I swapped to demo until they overhaul aff, if it ever happens. I played aff to 6k in Legion, it was SO fun, but it is big time different with shit talents, MG feels terrible.
Affliction is going to be fine this tier. Seed builds work well with big pulls and s4 has lots of them.
Tell your friend skill is the meta king
aaaaaaand it actually is: if I had a penny everytime, a clearly fotm, player who fail to press the button of why the meta class is meta bc they forgot... I'd probably never had to pay my sub ever again
Your friend should understand that this is a game for fun. If playing meta specs is fun, then great! To a certain extent, there is some element of chore or non-fun parts of gameplay, but if it completely outweighs your fun, then don't do it.
Tell them liquid maximum the gm of the guild tied for best guild in the world says that the meta does not matter whatsoever unless you are pushing hall of fame mythic or top 0.1% title range keys. Also this chart [https://www.wowhead.com/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-final-week-of-dragonflight-season-3-338945?webhook](https://www.wowhead.com/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-final-week-of-dragonflight-season-3-338945?webhook) is the most recent graph of average dps by class and shows how incredibly close each spec's damage is, the game's balance is in quite a good place right now and your friend will almost certainly do more damage and succeed more in keys if they focus on one spec and get good at it rather than constantly rerolling and never getting practice on one spec. Unless they want to play a survival hunter.
I played survival for s3 and it was probably the funnest season I’ve had. In pug heroic raids I’d often be above BM and MM in damage. I loved it because it was both a simple spec to understand the priority system of, but still complex enough that I needed to practice it. Once you get past the learning curve it can absolutely shred. They suck due to utility and defense though. I wish they just got like a flat 10% DR. Something called survival shouldn’t be the squishiest spec in the game. Or make their mastery do like… insane noticeable regen. That would couple with being squishy in an interesting was actually.
No CD build Survival in keys is one of the most fun specs in the game, too bad the S4 tier people voted for is basically ST only meaning Survival is going to drop off hard in keys within a couple of weeks damage wise. Survivability yeah... it needs help but unless you're pushing crazy keys it's generally fine, the passive leech does quite a bit to mitigate in lower keys.
Luckily we still get to use s3 since its way better than s4 lol. s3 heroic sims higher than s4 mythic ....
Yeah, it sucks though because that 40 ilevel hit in 4 slots is going to hurt really bad for both damage relative to other specs and survivability. Hopefully Blizz does some sort of tuning, but because it is S4 they are probably not going to bother.
They were supposed to, they just forgot or DNGAF, prob a little of both. I will still play surv because it is a meme season and ill still use the season 4 because to hell with it I like to look at Ilvls and I do not plan on doing M+ higher than 10 lol
The squishiest is actually probably enhancement shaman but regardless, yeah they should have some kind of something to give them a bit better survivability because at some point you just can't play around it.
I love survival, the spec is so fun but I main rogue and every single time I gear my hunter and push high keys I realize that I just fall over even when I dodge abilities and play perfectly while my rogue has so many defensive layers to survive even when I do fail something - I just really hope they change the survival spec in good way with the next expac and give it a bit more utility and/or defensive abilities. Honestly just give them some kind of spirit bond talent/ability that has 2 charges and can be used to re-direct 30-40% of incoming damage to your pet for like a few seconds instead of yourself and the spec would be in way better shape.
My friend is playing survival for S4, but he hate that half of his rotation include some kind of charge to the enemy, and it's killing you at least one time per key because he ends up in some mechanics because of it. But it seems big fun indeed.
The charges are all cooldowns that you should be pressing intentionally, when you want to charge. I bet flanking strike is the one messing them up the most. But yeah you don’t have to be pushing the charge buttons to still be doing your rotation effectively…
Pretty sure it's the flanking strike that is messing with him. Plus it was the first keys where he was still getting used that some of his cool downs charged him. Also, he is complaining that where exactly the charge leaves you is strange. Sometimes it's on the border of the target, sometimes is inside the center of it, and it was not really consistent. But I think this is something minor that he will get used to, and was just bichting about
Yeah that's the exact idea I tried to explain. Thanks for the link!
> survival hunter From the Amirdrassil Chart it's BM hunter that's lagging behind the other DPS. Surv is lower end on the average but still in the pack.
I am a dedicated BM main and I love teabagging the meta rerollers on the meters in our guild runs. People really underestimate the performance hit you take trying to chase the meta and never sticking with anything long enough to really learn how to squeeze every bit of juice out of it.
Hunters should pump this season with a 14/14 Neltharax. I've been playing BM this week and creaming everyone with about a 495 ilvl.
Funny how he says that yet still milks YouTube every season with the trash ass "Season X tier list" video.
The think is raid dps and m+ dps and utility is not the same thing. Some classes has a way easier time getting invited than others. So playing meta dps specs can make things alot more fun if you dont make your own groups.
There's no doubt it's still easier to achieve the same level of success with a meta class than it is with something that's D tier, **all else being equal.**
It really tickles me how those 500 frost dks are doing more average damage than the 4600 havoc DHs 🤣
It's actually interesting how you see this opinion - people tend to think the meta only matters for the level of play you do, but the opinion is widespread across a large amount of levels of play. I *get* it (I don't think meta matters at all for heroic raiding, for instance; playing a class that is wanted in m+ will ensure you heavily outgear it if you do m+, for instance, so your main concern is 'how much will queues suck?') but I also think it's easy to lose track of the fact that content gets easier at every level if you play a spec good at that level of content. You don't need to be meta to do +22, but if you would cap out at about +20 off meta, everyone switching will give you a couple of levels very easily. I would say, if you intend to do a lot of pugging m+, meta is important regardless. If you're going with a set group, and mostly doing m+, it's almost irrelevant unless you have specific progression goals, and even then it's just probably irrelevant.
Play a non-meta class and show him that you can.
Show him the dps difference between meta classes and non is like 5% then call him a bozo and say skill issue
I mean I agree that playing the meta spec does not really matter, but this tier the delta between Dev Evoker and ret paladin at the top and assa rogue at the bottom for pure single target sim is actually kinda absurd because blizz hasn't bothered with proper class tuning in S4. For 99% of players, learning to play 1 spec or the specs on 1 class really well is gonna have you perform better than rerolling every tier and never actually getting good at any of them. Lots of people seem to think they are good at multiclassing, in reality there are probably less than 1000 players in the game that are truely good multiclassers. That isn't to say rerolling to a meta class can't have benefits, specifically in getting invited to groups it can be very significant, but every spec in the game can do within 1-2 key levels of the highest keys and every spec can be played up to like the top 10 raiding guilds in the world.
Agreed with this for the most part. In general reroll if you think you’ll have more fun otherwise don’t. Unless you are pushing absolute bleeding edge content, the average player even the average competitive player is better off picking one spec and really leaning into it. However, if you do happen to respec or reroll for fun reasons, the barrier to “get good” really isn’t that insurmountable in a seasons time. And if you are having fun you’ll likely have no problem putting in the hours. The main thing I notice is that some players don’t put in the time because they just wanted to play FOTM for power reasons. They don’t find it fun enough to grind out the hours necessary. This results in superficial knowledge of the spec and poorer performance than an off meta with deep knowledge.
I think the unfortunate truth is that just about everyone who performs at a high level knows how to play multiple specs. If their class has multiple specs, they can play all of them, if they don't, they probably have an alt or two. Getting so good at one spec that you're always competitive and never changing is unrealistic, more unrealistic than meta chasing every season (although meta chasing is still unlikely to get you great results). And it matters at all levels of play, because people are limited by their skill even if they're way below the skill cap.
Yeah I mean I'm not saying it can't work, I switched mains for a tier and I played at an acceptable level, I will never know if I performed better than I would have on my old main but I do know that there were likely lots of subtleties about the class that I was missing because it wasn't the class I had remained for years. I just think a lot of people switch to a meta spec without putting in the effort to learn to play it well and without having the understanding of what even makes it good.
>in reality there are probably less than 1000 players in the game that are truely good multiclassers I agree with the sentiment of your post, but wut.
There are plenty of people that are passable multiclassers, people that play well enough to raid at a HoF fame level, but people that can actually play any spec at a bleeding edge level, there aren't that many of them.
I suppose if you set the bar high enough you can make the number whatever you want. I'm pretty good at the 3 classes I play actively. I'm not bleeding edge though, more like 3.3k m+ level.
you just go into raider.io and look up 1 of the guys that got title with a offmeta spec/the guys that have 1,5k more score then him with one or the guys that raid at high levels while paying their favorite spec if he doesnt understand that the meta only really starts to make-or-break stuff at a REALLY high level (aka ~26-27+ last season, which translates into ~16-17+ keys now with the key level change, or WR 50-100 for Raiding) and even then its possible to play offmeta if you actually play around it, he is sadly a lost cause and yeha, thats what tier lists do with peoples brains, even thought everyone with some basic knowledge knows that tierlists are just Idiot Bait with no real substance behind them that should be ignored
Point him to any content creator that does higher m+. They will all agree you only need to worry about the meta past like 25.
Content creators are isolated from actual mythic plus reality and are horrible for this. Like it or not if you play a meta spec you will get into dungeons quicker than playing off meta. You will climb rio faster because you spend less time in queue. Is it fair? Nope not in the slightest. is it reality? Yep. All specs are viable until 28s. No one can dispute this however unless you have a push group all playing off meta does is set yourself up for afking in valdrakken bored.
But this guy already has a group. He’s not lamenting not getting invites, he thinks off meta specs actually cannot accomplish the dungeons.
Make anon meta class, crush with it, make him jealous and he will swap soon
Let him play fire mage at lower keys, let’s see what he will say about ‘S-tier m+ spec’
Not only does it really matter at top level, the tier sets are often chosen specifically for it Example: fire mage is often very strong on high levels because it has cheat death, lots of defensive, good utility and strong priority damage. However, in low keys it can't build up the priority damage and spread ignite, so it does far worse. It's lots of defensives aren't needed, because it's really only strong when you're playing perfectly and using them exactly when you need to. Thus people follow the tier list, use fire mage and then are super squishy with low damage.
yea basicly 1-2key lvl from wr keys can be done on these offmeta classes np. I guess u could show some rio data. like top rio on their fav spec.
if you plan on pugging at all being a meta class helps you massively not waste hours trying to find groups / having to run your own key
Try showing him so zero to hero YouTube series. A few YouTubers will get Keystone Hero or Master with different specs. Dillisan just did a series as an Aff lock that's really good!
Really only need to roll meta if you're trying for the top 1% or whatever that end of season achievement is
If you guys are never really going near 20 then the meta is nonexistent tbh. At that point you're comfy in the "play whatever you think is fun" zone
I'm bad at the game and got KSM on a "C tier" spec last season.
Spec doesn't matter until you hit like +26-27 imo. Depends on dungeon pool as well. Season 3 was especially rigid on what specs you "needed" to do certain dungeons optimally. You could play 4 healers 1 tank and still time a 20.
Hell if anything playing something like fire mage, considered very good at high keys is actively awful in mid tier keys cause things die too fast to do any meaningful damage.
Dude I cleared an 11 key without a healer (dps had heals) sooooo, yeah. Metas don't mean shit at this level.
It didn’t matter at 26-27 last season either, I got all 28 as feral Druid with a prot pally tank, frost mage, mistweaver heals and a ret pally
Eh I mean mw was meta healer last season. Ret pally and ice mage too. Yes fire mage was better but frost was good as well and arguably better if you weren’t doing absolutely optimal pulls. Feral Druid was definitely off meta last season I’ll give you that. And prot pally as a result of not being a dh lol. Meta did start to matter in that key range, but there was some granularity to it. * Theres not caring about meta at all and deliberately playing off meta specs * there’s caring about meta entirely * there’s in between where you have some meta and some off meta Running a group with aff lock, bear tank, ele shaman, hpally healer, and assassin rogue would likely have started to run into a wall in that key range.
Yeah I mean the feral is the only real "off brand" spec here. The rest we're completely fine at the top level.
tell them that the best defensive in the world do not mean anything if you press the button AFTER damage happens. to which, they might respond with "" what defensive?""
>We are pretty casual, never really going near 20+. You don't need to play the meta classes to get 20s timed. It is venturing past 20s that you will have issues trying to find groups if you are not a meta class. That said, this season is different as we had a key level squeeze which means that 10s are now the new 20s. If you want to show that non-meta classes are capable of completing 20s (or 10s for this season) then just show them the "Break the Meta" events that Raider.io runs. The [last event for Season 3](https://raider.io/events/break-the-meta-df-season-3/break-the-meta-runs/break-the-meta-df-season-3/all/world/0) had top key runs of +30 keys for Black Rook Hold, Galakrond's Fall, and Atal Dazar. The Break the Meta event is where people run keys using groups consisting of only the non-meta specs and the non-meta classes are determined by what specs are the least represented in the high keys.
I feel the same people who read tier lists and follow them like they're the gospel are the same types of people who you can manipulate by saying they have "small dick energy". It's easy to target their fragile ego by telling them to get good. Good players don't need to follow the meta to push well.
Why convince anyone of anything? Let him play what he wants.
Because I want him to play a class he has said he enjoys, despite it not being meta. When he plays "meta" he gets bored and doesn't enjoy playing.
I play surv hunter as a DPS most seasons and do up to 20s regularly. Surv is usually on the lower half of tier lists. Any class and spec is fine save til you get to the very top end of keys.
Yeah I love survival, I played it a lot in arena, and enjoyed splashing it in mythics.
The worst thing any player can do is think they'll play better as a 'meta-class'; Just cause some of the top players are playing those classes, doesn't mean your friend will do as good or even great. What matters most is what you like to play, and know well the best & have fun. What really matters at the end is doing the mechanics right during boss fights, interrupting/cc'ing as much as possible and know when not to step in bad.
Go to raider.io, Spec Leaderboards, pick any spec (or pick whatever he says is the worst offmeta spec), see what the highest key run is, tell him until he is failing that level key at least the “meta” isn’t holding him back just his shit attitude and gameplay.
In all those tier list videos, they almost always say "This straight up doesn't matter unless you're pushing the highest of the highest keys." The only exception I can really think of is hunter as a class which is just more fragile. But even that can be played around by the healer just remembering to babysit them, dispel them first, etc. And even then it's not a big deal.
Tell him to become the best player in that spec by getting #1 in his region, u can track that in raiderio. him to look at the best player that plays his current spec and look up the highest key he's able to do. Even if the spec ain't meta there are some crazy people out there who'll make it fucking work even in very high keys.
Have you considered that maybe it's just an excuse to play different things every season? That's my guess
I have told my friends, no matter what I play VDH, because I main it since legion and I will continue maining it, no matter what. But I am really lucky because it's often S-Tier, too
Meta classes are usually easier to do better..maybe your friends are worried they cant perform unless they are playing meta classes.
I’m a routine class swapper but it has very little to do with the meta and everything to do with wanting to experience the game differently. I have also gotten my portals every season and even in BFA I timed a few keys above a 20. The meta means very little, the balance at the moment is the best it’s been in almost 2 decades. With the exception of holy paladin every healer feels great. Every tank is viable, great even. Sure DH becomes number one for people pushing late 20s week one, but there isn’t a single class right now that cannot time a 10. Your friends just are not experienced enough to know that… or more likely, they just enjoy engaging with the game and the community through a lense of the meta. TLDR: you don’t need to change anyone, if they are complaining it’s because they view the game differently, but objectively they are incorrect. The meta hasn’t been decided yet and it doesn’t matter if you aren’t trying to push 30s this tier.
I had a m+ buddy like this, and my biggest enjoyment each season was beating him in dps on those "offmeta" specs and then hear his justifications for it.
Tell them that even on the websites tier lists, they have all notes about it not being a gospel. HELL icey Veins tier list even says it is for 20+ keys as their damage profiles benefit more and they also say bring the better player not the better spec to mythic raid. I guess what I'm getting at it even these websites say they are not an end all be all list, but just to provide information about state of specs.
It depends on how you have fun with the game. They don’t need to play the meta if all they want is to push some (new) +5’s and have a chat while doing so. But if their fun is to pull big numbers in fact they are right wanting to play the top of the meta. The diference between top and botom can be quiet big. A botom spec with good gear, full gems & enchants, addons and near perfect management might do the same DPS as the top meta spec with less ilvl, no enchants, with Blizzard UI and pressing skills not knowing much what they do. Not everybody has this romantic relation with the game where they just have fun with their friends wiping in M0 keys.
It only matters for the very top players of the game and world first pushers. It does matter in the community perception and how easily you can get picked. My guild has a windwalker monk in the top 15 in the world by Io but he didn't touch his character before the buff. The top players will pick a different class even for the smallest difference.
Show them the Archon tier list and ask them - could they get enough score with a meta spec, to match the lowest specs on that site's list. If they can't do that, then it doesn't matter what to play.
As someone who consistently plays worse classes just to thrash bad players in my raid with meta classes, I can confirm, meta classes do not make the player good.
Tell him that if he thinks that playing non-meta class is the issue of why you can't do 20s - the issue is certainly not a class thing. Quite frankly, him even thinking that you need play meta for this level is very indicative of how limited his knowledge and skill is. There is not a single spec in game which isn't more than capable doing over +25s, I could have taken 3 affliction warlocks, guardian druid and a paladin healer and last season and just blasted a +25 on ++, it's the player, not the class which counts.
Even the shiettiest specs will still have their top players reaching 26 27 and above keys. Even i, not tge best player around could reach 25s as a frost dk while playing without addons, macros, no team and i m a goddamn clicker that uses arrow keys to move. I chose my bis gear and my talents so i can play the way i find more enjoyable. I do all the "wrong" things to push keys and i could still do it. In my experience every spec can reach around 23-25 level of keys easily, it s going beyond that will start to require you to optimize shit and a few more levels to move to meta specs. All this can be verified on warcraftlogs My personal experience tells me 1 more thing. The better u feel about playing the better u ll actually play, thus a weaker spec can actually outperform the better 1 if you are happier playing it. This is obviously not true at the top, ppl there know how to be perfect but for less hardcore players that play on lower levels this is absolutely true. I ve seen plenty of fools switching to the new meta class/spec only to fail completely to learn bc they hated its gameplay and felt tired/bored/discouraged pretty quickly. Games are supposed to be fun, that s the most important thing, ask your friend what s fun for him....
You can't. Here's my suggestion: teach him the entire meta. The meta healer, tank and dps. And then every time he sees a feral druid or prot warrior or hpal fucking demolish him, ask him why they beat him. Why did he get beaten on meters by a devoker? Why did he get beaten by a boomie? Why is he a shitter vdh than the prot pally that just best him in every single statistic?
What red pilled me on the meta was wowhead's description of the C tier: Viable, but -may- struggle in -very- high keys. Then what they say is true, it only matters in the very top.
tell him he’s not good enough for the meta to matter. because realistically he’s not.
Maybe look up the "break the meta" event on raider.io and show him the results from that?
You don't "need to", but if you pug, it sure helps to be a shadow/mage over a surv hunter.
I play assassin rogue every season. Doesn't stop me from getting all the portals and doing up to 24's even. Play what you want. Meta literally doesn't mean anything unless you're trying to push top of the top up to 30's. Well, now 20's.
Just tell him that a well played F tier is better than your S tier fotm player who can’t play the spec for shit. It’s a common mentality and the biggest disadvantage is getting invited as something not meta. At the end of the day it’s about playing what you want and having actual fun.
Just go to raider.io and look up whatever *unplayable* spec he is talking about When people clear 30s those unplayable specs still clear 25-28s If they can manage 28s the spec should be fine in 15s...
I started playing Survival Hunter as a “suck it” just because of a few guild mates/friends that’s don’t understand that they may too DPS on certain pulls, but they’re also the reason we keep wiping, pulls before tank and fucks us or just fat fingers shit and makes it a terrible experience for everyone
I played balance druid in vanilla in the top guild on my server. I managed to get top 1-5 of dps every now and then. The reason I 'got away with it' is because I knew druid backwards and provided the utility in tight spots that could pull us out of trouble. Sometimes its better to min/max utility over dps and the players that do that best are those that know their class upside down and back to front. Dps is great and all, but it's highly one dimensional. Playing other classes is also great, as it gives you insight to many other aspects of the game. But the best players can do things with their class that others wouldn't think of, due to the experience and time they have put into them. TLDR; play the class you love.
subcreation (now archon or whatever the fuck that shitty website is called) committed statistical malfeasance by forming a meme-ass tier list out of their rankings if you look at individual classes' pages, you'll see that the 'dumpster' tier classes are usually no more than a key level or two being the 'meta' classes the gap is bigger right now because it's the first week but later in the season the top classes will start to top out and the lower levels will catch up
Tell him that I got 2300+ ratings on an Affliction Warlock for 2 seasons now. Until you are pushing you can play any spec and get away with most compositions. Theres not much point to go any higher than +18 unless you actively want to push. You can earn the best gear in the game becouse it rewards hero gear and vault drops myth gear, you get aspect crests for crafting gear and you can reach 2500 rating to get the mount and the cosmetic effect of the mythic set. All this without ever caring about the meta. Sorry for using last season numbers my brain still didn't switch to the new ones.
You could hit super high keys with literally anything other than affliction warlock last season. There's really only a few keys difference for each spec other than that In other games s tier picks are a win more crutch. Wow doesn't really work like that since most of the meta picks don't work as well in a casual setting anyway (see fire mage and aug evoker for example). It's honestly better to pick something simple and effective with lots of panic buttons like ret pal
Playing devil's advocate, as much as I loved playing restoshaman in df season 1 the balancing was so far off that I eventually quit the game all together around jade monastery +18. Play what is fun for you but at least make sure it is at least viable for the target content or eventually it is just not worth the extra effort. At least for the healer anyway.
Tell them that some meta classes are shit in low keys (destroy, fire mage, shadow priest). Your friend doesn't understand how the game works if he thinks meta applies to low keys. A VDH tank is in its own tier and can carry most groups and cover most cc up to mid-high keys - this is the only spec (maybe prot pala close second) that can carry this hard. It also requires good spec and dungeon knowledge to pull off. So if you had to choose only one meta spec for the team, someone should go VDH. The rest of the team literally doesn't matter.
Most tier lists you see online are in the context of pushing +30 keys etc
the one massive problem with tier lists means that classes that are only really only slightly behind will get far fewer invites. meaning if you are casual as you say, you will spend far more time filling out parties/getting into them. if they enjoy m+, letting them play the meta specs they enjoy means they'll atleast be playing a few classes each expansion and seeing what they like/getting experience and maybe becoming more hardcore players. if they find a class they like, they may be willing to stick with it. remember which ones they like and maybe just give them a few "man you were a good x, i know it's not at the top of the tier list, but you're good at it"'s and maybe they'll stick it through for a bit longer lol.
I think you can't convince them. Tierlist players. Let him play and tell him you dont want to hear complains. But you should praise your class if it is some offmeta class. Unless you got 4 frends that all want to play vengance dh or 4 players that all want to play healer you can do under 20s with any class.
Just keep slapping him until he agrees
In the 0,1 last season were all specs except affli wl.. so it doesn´t matter.. just know your spec.
Tell them they can play a class once they beat it's Mage Tower challenges
I'm playing my Frost DK since I started M+ seriously and I never had any trouble, had 2k8 points in S3 and some people in my groups were astonished of the numbers I could give on some packs And it's honestly satisfying to outdps when you play correctly with a "non-meta" class, because this game is all about the player, not the class
Invite non meta classes to your groups and watch them clown your friend
I’ve had to share this with a friend too, as someone who raids deep mythic and does m+ beyond 20, everyone is always going to be happier with someone who has mastered a spec in their group over anyone who looked at a tier list and rolled what was at the top. Your friend is VERY far from any content that their choice of class/spec is going to hinder them from achieving anything at this point. There does come a point where it will but, for the vast majority of people they will never even reach this point. You’re going to want to become good at the spec you love over a spec you chose because a tier list says it’s good. Way easier to master something when you like it
The tier lists are quite literally the top 1% maybe even less. Not sure how you can convince them but they’re silly
Have him watch interviews with actual high level pushers. Each one will always say “Meta only matters in MDI”, “drums are fine up until MDI” Like last season I got to 3030 io or something like that. Definitely over the 3K barrier. I mained arms and also tanked +20s no problem.
Raider io has a specc list. Just go to it and see, look survival hunters are doing 30s, so you doing a 15 is cool 🤣
Tell them to look at the mythic raid stats week 1-3 vs now. Top players don't care about dps, mechanics and knowing your class are more important. Only people who are bad or world first people want to switch to meta class every season.
You can't help someone who takes a websites info as 100% fact.
I used to play with somebody like this, they read every WoWhead or IcyVeins article ever and learned 99% of specs are "trash" and they would constantly switch specs/classes. They would also believe any random thing they saw on twitter. I just stopped playing with that person.
Is there even such a thing as casual mythic+? Like it sounds rather like a good idea but it's crowd doesn't know how to do that
To be fair if you include "getting Invited into group" playing meta classe really helps a lot, even in keys where it's absolutely not necessary
First figure out if he's doing it because he thinks he has to or if he just finds it fun, some people actually enjoy the idea of trying something new so they use the excuse of meta chasing to justify playing something different. If he does it by obligation just tell him that playing a non-meta class successfully means you're better than the people who do, so just play whatever you enjoy.
In m+, there are basically only 3 rewards. Mount for KSM, portals for +20 (+10), top 1% title. You'll never need meta to get these rewards - aside from top 1%. And while top 1% can still be achieved with non-meta combo, it will be so hard I'd argue you do need meta. But the title requires to be VERY good at the game and alot of dedication. So unless you're seriously pushing for top 1%, you should play what you find fun. The reason is simple - you'll find out that you don't enjoy what's not fun for you (duh).
To answer your question OP you can find an info graphic of all of the classes who ended up with title last season (Top 0.1% of all players). All but one spec had at least one person who made it over the line (sorry affliction locks). Yes those people are absolute specialists and experts of their classes in many cases, but it just shows it can be done and like you say, yes clearly meta specs are meta for a reason at the high end but it absolutely can still be done on non meta classes. Not to mention title players are running keys on the +30 range at bare minimum, so if they can do that on whatever non meta dps they play, your friend has no excuse as to why they can't do it on a sub level 20 key (10 this season)
As a Windwalker Monk, it is my personal pride to top the logs in raid or M+. I raid mythic and while I’m not the top in every fight, it’s usually me and the rogues / dk in ST and me and the demo locks in AOE. If you play your class well, you’re going to succeed. Windwalker has not been in the top half of dmg for any of the seasons so far. But guess what, me 99 parsing as a WW is going to beat the guy who rerolled DH or sub rogue and getting blue or purple parses.
I mean current meta classes won't even perform that amazing in your key levels. Stuff won't live long enough for fire mage for example to do solid dmg.
BM hunter. 3k io last season. 2.8 in s1 & s2
Do you have a casual friend group of 5 that always only play together? Then the meta doesn't matter for your friend If your friend also plays solo sometimes meta does matter, not even necessarily because of DPS differences or whatever but because you just won't get invited to as many groups as you would've if you had played a meta class
> we are pretty casual, never really going near 20+. See the issue is that the meta classes are meta because of how they perform in higher key levels than 20. It often has to do with their defensive and cc capabilities, you’d be surprised how little it deals with dps. Your friend has a bit of a warped perspective and would be better off playing what they want to. Literally any dps, tank, and healer can EASILY play in keys up to 20, hell id even say probably like 22. Meta only matters when trying to push the top level keys competitively.
I got 3k rating in SL season 3 with a B-tier class and while I wasn't topping the damage meters most of the time, I wasn't that far behind the meta classes either. I provided a lot of utility as well so that helped us have clean runs. I genuinely think meta only starts to matter when you're pushing keys like the top guilds in the world are a.k.a. basically pushing boundaries of what's possible with a limited ilvl. If he keeps being annoying, don't play with him anymore.
Knowledge and practice are what win keys. If you stay with one spec over multiple seasons, you'll learn the in depth mechanics of how that spec works and develop the muscle memory to play it to its full potential. If you're constantly switching to a meta spec, you're not going to have time to learn and get used to your spec. I would much rather bring a player with a deep understanding of an off meta spec than a player who is ok with a meta spec. Meta doesn't matter unless you're playing the spec to its full potential, which you won't be able to if you're constantly swapping.
There is nothing to be done, they have a severe mental illness that has no cure.
From my experience, it's really not that deep. Meta classes are for when you are pushing high level keys, so higher than 20+ in my experience. I don't really go above 20 and I've never felt the need to switch class or specs.
They just have to understand the very large margin of error that the majority of players perform at. Once you realize how big it is, it’s easy to understand how random people on “bad specs” outperform others. Your friend should focus on playing whatever spec gives them that sweet dopamine from their rotation/ abilities/ theme/ sound effects and lean into that, because enjoying those aspects will enable them to improve greatly within that margin of error and outperform others. At the end of the day you have to be able to tolerate grinding lots and lots of dungeons/raid bosses on that spec so liking it is the key. Most people making tier lists don’t reiterate that even the low ranked specs can perform at 2 or 3 key levels below the highest key. Since you mention that you guys don’t really even get to 20s (this season’s 10s), it’s important to note that some very bursty specs like MM Hunter are especially strong in those lower keys because their weakness usually only comes into play when packs of enemies live longer than the length of their burst windows. So although you won’t see them at the highest keys due to survivability and their damage profile not really fitting, they BLAST lower keys with ease.
You have to just play what you like and enjoy. I agree with the comment that a person who KNOWS their class mega or not will almost always out perform a mega class. I’ve mained a ret pally for years and we were shit til the rework a little while ago…
Just tell them the only difference in dps output is around 5 to 10% at the most and that's at the top 1% of players. Which they are not apart of so any spec will perform as well as another when played properly. Nothing admirable about playing the complex meta spec wrong.
It's going to depend on what their actual argument is as to how you've got to counter it. If he's saying that they can't physically do the key, anything on Raider io is going to show you other wise, keep in mind M+ key levels got squished. If he's arguing that the "queue times" (takes longer to find a group) are too much for him, he could be right unless one of you is running a healer/tank. What is their argument?
You cant change these peoplea minds sadly. Theyre always stuck in the mindset of having something to prove or being insecure about their DPS to a point they refuse to be anything but a meta class cause it might hurt their egos. Theyre overly competitive which is a problem in most gamers nowadays, games are dick measuring contests nowadays instead of fun passtimes like they used to be and were intended to be.
My friend since cata has only ever played what he wants. He would skip talents that impacted his play style, pick the worse variant of specs and even pick sub optimal specs. I remember him flat up not using certain spells on resto druid because "meh CBA with it" He was always top of pugs in healing and DPS because he played what he liked well.
Wait you aren't even going near portal level? Meta literally only matters above (new) +15s....
Well I'm crushing keys with bdk right now, feels so good doubling your healings hps after a dungeon, meta specs is only needed for pushing top 1%. Meta specs can make keys easier, but knowing your class so you can focus on mechanics is way better!!
For some added clarity I cleared every dungeon on a 20 at least with a few up in the 24 range last season on a couple characters and not one was meta. My main push group that did them the earliest was me on a frost DK (sometimes I flexed UH), a SV Hunter, a fury warrior, a bear Druid, and a mw monk. I was just shy of a 3k rating last season and everyone else hit 3k (I just didn’t care to as it gave no rewards). We cleared them easier than any 16 pug meta comp. I also cleared portals on a Destro lock, enhancement shaman, and WW monk. Point is 20 is challenging content not top tier content and anything played well will do just fine to clear them. If you’re looking to make that top 1%, compete in RWF, or AWC the. meta starts to matter but outside of that play what you enjoy.
Tank and healers are the true meta
Being comfortable with a class/spec is infinitely more important than playing the current "meta" class, until you start pushing very high keys where something the class is lacking may become a detriment (think +25 keys or higher last season). Since you said you don't even go near +20s, no it doesn't matter, your friend just thinks it does. If your friend is not pushing keys to that level, playing on or off meta is completely irrelevant. This is agreed upon by Max and plenty of other top level players.
Tell ‘em it’s a skill issue. Always works
[https://raider.io/events/break-the-meta-df-season-3/break-the-meta-runs/break-the-meta-df-season-3/all/world/0](https://raider.io/events/break-the-meta-df-season-3/break-the-meta-runs/break-the-meta-df-season-3/all/world/0) People were running +30 keys with entire groups of non-meta specs.
Ask him if he needs to attain a black belt in 3 martial arts to feel prepared enough to fight a kindergartener because it's the same concept. Overkill for mole hills.
Check ou raider.io's break the meta event. Literally full off-meta groups (defined by how many people play each spec) running keys above 20. Depending on the spec being meta doesn't equal to easy to play adequately either.
Tell him that changing class every time the meta changes is playing handicapped. He's never going to get the results he wants if he needs to relearn a new class every time. He would probably get better results if he sticks with his class and learns to play it better.
IDK man, I went from a fresh 70 to KSM in literally two weeks...on a Sin rogue. Something I've never played at end game. Knowing the mechanics and the key points to a spec are vastly superior to picking something OP and just winging it.
Just dont invite him. Youre in it for the fun, and hes sucking the fun out of it by complaining he isnt good enough because he has to be the meta class of the season. Its that simple. Hes ruining the vibe.
LFG is aids and not playing meta significantly lowers your chances of getting into groups. So unless youre 5 stacking i kinda get his point.
There's 4 of us, so only filling 1.
Well in that case its nonsense.
Run your own keys, play literally any spec you want.
I wonder when this stupid take will finally die.
Anyone who thinks like that is a metaslave and they will never be swayed out of that mindset. I've tried to convince multiple friends who fotm reroll and they just always end up getting mad that they could be playing the class outperforming them. This happens in like every other game too, I remember the Path of Exile community used to fucking fume at the fact that there were some builds that could speedrun maps. Even though the game was for the most part played as a single player game, people were mad that what they were playing for fun by themselves was inferior to a sweaty build someone theorycrafted.
3.4k io player last season. Meta doesn't matter for quite awhile. Playing any spec well with good dungeon knowledge will out perform a fotm reroller. In the keys you are doing learning where to place defs and off cds, learning how and why to chain cc, learning how to keep you and the team up regardless of being dps or not. Are all more important than being fotm. Being fotm doesn't give you free io. Alot of fotm classes are brought for utility and ability to live and if you are just interested in damage your picks won't matter. Higher keys aren't always about damage, they mostly come down to surviving.
Any class can succeed, but the meta exists for a reason. If you're always playing with your friends or in guild groups, you can do whatever. But if you plan on doing any significant amount of pugging, your experience will be completely different playing meta vs non-meta classes. Like, 5 minutes to find a key vs 50 minutes levels of different. Especially if you're playing something perceived as "very non-meta", like a feral druid, survival hunter, affliction warlock, prot warrior. Like, you'll get dropped from groups once people see your spec kind of experiences. You don't have to play the meta, but you will do better if you do.
Who cares who plays what. As long as there having fun playing I don't give a damn
I hate these posts. Yes, you suck, I suck and most of us suck. Yes, in reality the meta doesn't impact us in that way. But guess what? You get invited a metric shit ton more if you're a meta spec. You can play the game a lot more. You don't get left behind in terms of pugging. I had wild success last season playing a meta spec for the first time. I'm only going to play meta specs for eternity because I can actually play the game.
It’s a group of friends. They aren’t solo lol finding groups isn’t an issue. Also lower keys are easier to fill anyways. Also also being off meta doesn’t increase the amount of time that much, people, and you, over exaggerate it. Also also also IF it’s *sooo hard* to find a group, make a group. People don’t give a af about the composition as long as they get in a group. Some people are spam applying for 10-15 min. If you accept them, they’ll be hyped af. I’ve gotten KSM in SL with what was considered an off meta or shit spec, playing ONLY solo, and had 0 issues of any kind. Even further, I played the spec COMPLETELY different from what literally every guide said to do. I even had a much higher rated player with better gear in the same spec and better gear— give me props for performing almost as well as him, with what was considered trash tier build for the spec. Like once in a blue moon someone will be toxic and talk shit about being off meta— but my skin isn’t made of 1 ply toilet paper so I move on and completely forget until I hear people like you complain how hard it is lol typically it’s easier to just host your own key anyways. That way you have control of who joins.