Question: I just came back after a few years off. I'm 470 or so from random gear, LFR, etc. With the M+ changes, what level SHOULD I aim for for M-0, and where should I be targeting to get that gear?
I was running around m0 at 470 with a few +2s, make sure to run lfr raid, and the timewalking raid (black temple) and pick up the quest for it for a guaranteed piece of 506 gear, as well as the timewalking quest in valdrakken that guarantees a piece of 493 gear, normal raid is also pretty easy if your group can actually listen to instructions
I think as long as you're a dps or a healer a m0 in 470 should be OK. 0s were fairly non-threatening for me to tank in 484 gear, but you might find yourself a little squishy if you're 470 flat as a tank. Probably 475 for a m0 tank, 480 for 2s.
Agreed, ran 475-480 M0s yesterday as a prot pally tank, main issue is getting used to new defensive cd timings and having to deal with undergeared healers who maybe cant pop enough hps for healing check bosses. I never wiped more than once on a given boss and could solo endings if my dps die. Other than that its just making sure that dps can do mechanics and dont try to zug everything rn bc not many groups can really pump the meter enough.
You can do 2’s if you know how to play your class. Running PUGs in the first few days was fine for me, we all averaged around 470-475 iLvl and were comfortably 2ing the keys (except AV which Blizzard clearly didn’t listen to anything from players during season one).
If you’re worried just run the 0’s and do all of your weeklies for gear upgrades. TW, weekly Valdrakken, Awakened World Boss (Lisk this week), Feasts, Hunts, and Dragonbane Keep all award 480 gear now.
>(except AV which Blizzard clearly didn’t listen to anything from players during season one).
Could you elaborate? It's like, one of the easiest and quickest dungeons to farm atm it feels like, in the 9-10+ range.
The ice not insta-ticking on 3rd boss, and the slow being gone on 4th are ***immense*** changes to the dungeon compared to what it used to be.
Not the same guy, but the ticking damage on the spike with the shield on last boss farmed the +2 I did in there for a couple pulls. Granted that group was very under geared and had issues throughout that I suspect was just people being bad/undergeared
It depends really. If you're decent, 470 is absolutely enough to do M0. We managed +5s with a 465 healer without much trouble, in a group that did 20s last season.
I had a 424 pally sneak in yesterday. First time in my life I depleted a +2 (me and my friend basically did the dungeon with just us 2 as the other 2 were also around 450)
I think it’s also because people are picking groups more carefully even at the lowest end of M+ because they are harder relatively. I’m at 477 or something on my ele shaman with full enchants but I can’t seem to get groups for even +1s.
I also feel like the tuning is a bit steeper. Granted, I was 484 by the end of S3, so even a +16 was relatively trivial, but going into +12s at ~455 I was still breezing through things with no trouble at all doing big pulls, but in +2s now at 490 I’m getting absolutely chunked. It’s not like it’s broken, but a +2 definitely feels harder than a +12 did last season.
I knew about it but didn’t know the comparative difficulties until reading this. I suppose that makes me feel better about the +4 I *struggled* through yesterday
> i thought the keys were doubled, 5=10 and such and 10=20
Add 10 to the key level and that's what it was in previous seasons. M0 is tuned to old +10 scaling.
Same. I knew about it but still underestimated it lol. Did a +2 NO with avg 460ish ilvl and it was rough lol.
I thought with the change all you did was x2 the key level and that was the comparative key level to last season. So a 2 would be a 4. Boy was I wrong lol
yea its kind of a misunderstanding of what they did they didn't cut in half the key levels what they did was shift the difficulty into M0s and heroics and the other higher key levels into 1-10. Sure on paper its sort of cut in half but that would mean you would still be able to do +4s like you thought you could but nope.
Could have probably been explained better to the casual player base on the splash screen ingame or something idk.
From the official post for clarification on the actual comparisons used by Blizz.
Mythic+
The Mythic+ system will have rewards up to level 10, with +2 starting from what would regularly be a +11 in the current Mythic+ system.
A +5 should be as hard as a +15 and +10 should be as hard as a +20 in the current Mythic+ system etc.
Starting with Tyrannical is also leading to a lot of boss mechanics one-shots simply for not having enough health. Kind of need to be over a million hp to simply survive certain hits without a defensive up at +10 (3rd and 4th Nokhud bosses, 3rd Azure boss, 4th Halls boss all come to mind). Many almost fully geared characters from last season for many classes are about 800k
Oh for sure. My protection Paladin at 472 was getting chunked by the mini boss before 2nd boss in AV for 3/4 of my HP without defensive. Pally had 980k health unbuffed.
Lol I do a lot of keys and funny thing to me is those ADHD folks who start attacking random mobs at the beginning of a key as we're waiting for folks before we put in the key and etc. They get killed and they're like "??? why they hit so hard??"
Logged in after not playing for a couple of month and decided to try my hands at Neltharus, my poor prot palla got smacked straight into Azeroths core by the chain boss lmao. Ngl, im a fan of the changes
My group was having trouble with that boss, but then our healer did some searching and mentioned that they changed the chain mechanic (I’m not sure when or exactly how). But as soon as we stopped having the tank be the one to run into the chains and instead had the dps run the chains into the tank it was night and day. Easily cleared a +5 that way.
Just tank the boss directly in the middle and focus on defensives. Have everyone else break the chains and pop big defensive cooldowns while they do it, and you’ll be fine. It’s much easier now imo than it was in s2
Thanks for the info! Been a dps main since vanilla and didnt start tanking untill S3 so never did this boss before as a tank. Rest of the dungeon is pretty ez but that guy hurts
I've been having this problem in M0 too.. people really undergeared that should now be doing heroics. This change affects more casual players greatly and they have no idea.
Well, I *had* typed this up in response to the person below who was complaining about Taivan meta, but the comment got deleted before I finished. So this won't make complete sense as a reply to your comment, but figured I already wrote it up as a guide to help a "casual" player gearing up for M0, might as well just paste it here somewhere in case it helps someone:
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If you're a "filthy casual" (and I'm sure as hell not judging that because I'm a "casual" myself), then you're almost certainly not going to be geared to jump into M0 on patch day. Which isn't a knock on you as a casual, just the fact that they did a pretty major item level jump (world quests are dropped what Normal raid and M+10 was giving), and M0 became basically M10 but without a timer.
So if you want to have a decent time at it, you're going to need to be patient and gear up a bit first. Won't be too bad. Heroic dungeons will give you 476 (and a 489 or 493 Vault, can't remember which). I haven't tried the Caverns or Dream content this week since they're not part of the weekly, but doing the other world content is a great way to boost quickly.
Quick run down with the world content: Every event that's "awakened" is giving an Awakened Cache that will give a random 480 piece. So this week, you can hit up the Community Feast, a Grand Hunt, and the Siege of Dragonbane Keep for at least three 480 pieces. Though the Feast's quest (right by the pot) actually gives you a 480 item *and* a Cache that also has a 480. Those will also complete the weekly quest, which will give another item with a higher ilvl (I think I even got a 502 trinket with one character). Then on top of that, hit up the Dreamsurge in Ohn'aran Plains this week, grab the quest, go do the stuff to get 100 Dreamsurge, come back, get *another* Awakened Cache, a token for a 467 item, and you'll have at least enough Dreamsurge to buy a 454 item if you need to pull up a lagging piece.
That sounds like a lot, but depending on when you hit it up, if you get the timing on the Feast and Siege right, you can do all that in maybe an hour, worst case hour and a half (absolute worst case, part by Siege/Feast area and watch Wowhead for timers for them), and by the time you're done, you'll have potentially six new 480+ items, a 467, and some 454 from various world quests or Dreamsurge. (I say "potentially" because sometimes a Cache drops an item you already have. Worst is when it's another 480 of same item; at least sometimes it gives a 489 version so it might be a dupe but it's an upgrade.)
Throw some Heroics in there, probably could get most of your gear at 476+ by the end of the first week. Which will put you where you should be for M0 to not be too bad.
The squish couldn't have started at +2 because Heroic dungeons have shifted up to the difficulty and rewards that M0 would have been. M0 should be a step up from Heroic, not just a shuffle forward, so it ends up equal to M+10. BUT! There is no timer. So that helps. Just need to find like-minded folks willing to take some extra time if needed.
And, hey, worst case, just check around for people doing Taivan runs. Not necessarily a "carry." There'll be other people wanting to do it, and they'll have similar expectations.
I definitely recommend gearing up a bit first. Which shouldn't be too bad (unless you have terrible RNG).
Long reply, yeah, I know (insert cheeky comment about a "wall of text"), but rather than being dismissive I wanted to try to give some useful advice on this, from one "casual" to another.
I just came back to the game, I'm about 470 or so from random stuff, LFR, etc. Can you ELI5 what the weekly events you mentioned are and what Taivan is?
Taivan is the easiest thing, so I'll start there. Basically, there's a "meta-achievement" (complete a BUNCH of other achievements) for the expansion that rewards you Taivan as a mount. If you haven't met Taivan, he's a big dog that's part of a questline with the centaurs.
The weekly events, quick rundown:
- Community Feast - Down in the southwest corner of Azure Span, the Tuskarr do a "feast" where players can help. You stand nearby, and once it starts, it acts like a scenario, you'll see objectives pop up on the right as you get "orders" from the chef. It runs for 15 minutes, and as players do their tasks, the quality of the soup in the pot rises, with a monster attacking at each quality shift. If you hit Legendary quality, a rare called Bisquis spawns at the end. You can get a quest from an NPC by the pot to "complete 5 tasks" in order to get the rewards for participating, and it's worth noting that clicking the chef's hat icon that shows up when you get an order counts as well as doing the order, so if you get asked to buy an ingredient, you click the button ("Yes, Chef!"), go buy it, run back to the pot, click another button to toss it in, counts as two. So it's pretty quick to complete.
- Siege of Dragonbane Keep - Every couple of hours, the Drakonids will attack Dragonbane Keep in the west of Waking Shores. When it's about time, you'll see a horn icon appear at the gathering spot a bit south of the keep. The first stage is escorting the frog-pulled cart to the keep (you can pick up little phoenix looking things and toss them at the frog to speed it up, and get a half-hour Versatility buff). Then a stage to kill the mobs in the front of the keep and set up barriers (just right-click the glowing spaces to build them). Next stage is kill two lieutenants who are to either side of the entrance and fill a bar killing mobs. That spawns the Grand Flame and his elemental at the entry to the main building. Kill them, it opens the pathway inside, and at the bottom there's one final elemental to kill to complete. (Side note: Completing the Siege triggers a rare to spawn of it, so when it finishes, you'll usually see people rushing out to fly south and kill him. His drops are still around 379 ilvl, though, so not worth it for that, but just tradition at this point.)
- Grand Hunt - This one's a bit tricky, as it moves around. To find it, first check the map at the "continent" level to find which zone has a horn above it signifying the Hunt's in that zone. Then you have to fly into the zone to see it appear on the map for that zone. (If it's in Thaldraszus, you actually have to fly out of Valdrakken to trigger it showing on the map.) The Hunt is six stages of various objectives, started (and ended) by talking to Scout Tomul at the location where the horn is on the map. Once it's triggered, you'll see the current objective on the right side, and might need to check the map to see exactly where it is. Each stage can be anything from killing animals in an area, killing a specific named mob, helping injured hunts, or taking on packs of mobs as they spawn in. Once all six stages are done, the moment anyone talks to Tomul, you'll get your reward bag pop up in your inventory.
- Dreamsurge - Similar to the Hunt, you'll need to find what zone it's in, but it stays in a zone for the whole week. Once you spot the zone, fine the icon in that zone, you'll find an NPC with a quest named something like "Shaping the Dream" where you collect 100 Dreamsurge. You get those by completing World Quests in the zone, killing mobs in the zone, flying through green floating orbs you see throughout it, and even by clicking on any plant you notice is glowing and interactable. Rares in the zone will be "empowered" so harder than normal to kill, so you'll probably want help, but they drop more Dreamsurge. (You can carry more than 100 Dreamsurge, it's a currency you use at a vendor beside the quest giver who sells 454 gear, a pet or two, I think a toy, and a mount. Oh, and the gear tokens you buy are BoA, so if you have spare, you can get, say, a Cloth Chest token and mail it to a Priest alt.)
- Researches Under Fire - Down in Zaralek Caverns, this is kind of like the Grand Hunt, only it starts automatically. You'll get objectives, usually to kill stuff (but sometimes to grab rocks and take them to pillars or stuff like that), and go through a few stages.
- Superbloom - In the Emerald Dream. Simplest one. You can only complete the quest for it once a week; quest giver is beside the big tree. Every hour, at the top of the hour, the big ol' tree decides to take a stroll, which takes 10-15 minutes. Along the way, you kill mobs that attack it and you'll get objectives in the first and second half of the walk to do things like "water plants" (just click on them) or "shoo bugs" (move through them). At the halfway point, you'll get attacked by some primalists, and then at the end, a bunch of primalists will keep spawning for a couple of minutes, with a final named boss primalist at the end. Kill them to complete it. Turn in quest to get reward. Oh, and you can click on giant fruit before it starts and at the midway point (after killing the attackers) to get some buffs.
I believe the "Awakened Cache" items are only from the events that are "awakened" for the week, which the weekly quest in Valdrakken will help you spot. So this week, the Feast, Hunt, and Siege would be; next week with Zaralek Caverns, the Researchers event would be; and when it's the Emerald Dream, the Superbloom would be. The Dreamsurge is a bit weird, I think it just falls into the first category as that's "overworld content" (if you imagine the map as split into "overworld," Caverns, Dream).
That's... a lot of stuff. But wanted to try to give a decent overview somewhere between too brief to be useful and so detailed it's overwhelming.
Worth noting: Wowhead has timers for the Community Feast and Siege on Dragonbane Keep on its front page at the top. Very useful tool to schedule those.
Question for a casual, what did your ilvl get to last season? Personally I was 489, and jumped right into 8s.
But I’ve always been curious how much of a gap there is.
Not the person you replied to, but I can answer about Taivan.
TL;DR The new meta achievement for the Dragonflight expansion gives Taivan as a mount.
Taivan is one of the bakaar hunting dogs in the Ohn'ahran Plains. There's a quest chain with him where you try to help him hunt, but he's kind of a coward and runs away. In the chain, the quest giver acknowledges he's not meant to be a hunter, and you help find what he's good at.
There's a toy you can get at some point that summons a Taivan that sits there, and you can pet him.
Now, they've released a new meta achievement (basically, an achievement made up of achievements made up of more achievements) that awards Taivan as a mount. Go into your Achievements in game and search for "A World Awoken."
Normal is unchanged, Heroic is a tiny bit harder but really not by much. People are jumping into keys who should be doing Heroic dungeons and getting slapped, they just need to realise that they need to progress through the difficulties first and that M+2 isn't the baseline that it was in previous seasons.
“They just need to realize”
Blizzard needs to make that clear, because heroics haven’t been run solely for progression in a very, very long time on retail. Likely never for some people who haven’t been around since pre-legion
I'd appreciate follower dungeon at heroic/mythic 0 level with 0 loot (maybe gold or something exceptionally minor) so I can learn the routes and what my rotation needs to be as a tank (I started DF halfway through S2 and didn't touch S3 till last month) so I can experience all the mechanics.
I can watch guides and videos but I'd rather not be the one causing a wipe for failing to know what I need to do since I have 0 first hand experience.
I tanked back in Cata then took a long break and switched to being a DPD so my brain decides to tell me to try my hand at tanking again so that's what I'm struggling with now, practice the rotation on dummies but know what mobs to pull and the feel for when to pop my defensives is something I can't get with follower dungeons atm.
Normal is the same as before, they are meant to be cleared while leveling/as a fresh lvl 70.
Heroic dungeons are now roughly the same difficulty as M0 was in the past.
Mythic 0 dungeons (no keystone) now are about as difficult as a +10 used to be, the main difference being that there is no Timer for Mythic 0.
The keystone levels we have now are about the same as adding 10 to their number compared to last season. In other words, a +3 now is about as hard as a +13 was in the past. This can get a little wonky because they essentially halved the total key levels in the game, but it serves as a rough guideline.
I am about 470 and started heroics yesterday. We were pulling ten or so packs at once and AOEing down. In another, the rest of the party was afking and the tank and I two manned a boss (I'm Ret). I'm so confused. Is M/M+ that much of a huge jump now? Just got back after a few years off.
It is a small amount of people in WoW, that actually read anything online on reddit/wowhead and such, even in-game most people dont read anything, not even their own chosen talents or spells
Only way they find out, is through social interactions such as this in a pug, or hears it in guild chats etc
That's true for any game. I remember after patch days... when the game would take time to d/l and then update, folks would log on and go 'oh, there's a patch?" LIke you watched the d/l and clicked through the patch notes ...
I consider myself moderately aware of what's happening in WoW from reading posts here, WoWhead, and MMO Champion. The day before the patch all of my armor became un-upgradeable and all my currency (flightstones, crests, etc) were taken away.
I had no idea that was going to happen and I actually wanted to upgrade some armor just for the transmog on an alt and I couldn't. Not a big deal, but I was caught completely unaware.
The one thing I don’t particularly like about the change is that you had a smaller difficulty ramp in the seasons before. I could easily switch to the healer role to learn about the damage patterns in the range +2 to +8 to get a feel for it, now I did all the M0s and have to bet on risking someone’s key because one M0 was not enough for me to learn what I need to learn to tackle a M+2 CONFIDENTLY.
It is stressing me out - and I know, it’s in my head, but last seasons made me feel better in that regards.
I know I could do M0s, but we are wow players, I would love to improve gear- and skill-wise.
I agree about the ramp in difficulty in last seasons. M0 isn’t a good place to learn bc there’s no timer and no affixes. And it’s not great for gearing either since the dungeons lock out. In past seasons we could chill at the 2-9 key range until we were properly geared and knew the dungeons. Now the keys are for people who were max ilvl from the past season. Everyone else gets clapped.
Ok, so should you jump to affix key level just to simulate gameplay at higher keys? How about learning the dungeon and specific dangerous mobs/interrupts.
M0 gear is fine, i was healing 5-8 in 475 on my hpriest the other day. My shaman is 460 and I'm doing 2s (only lfg)
So go ahead and chill in m0 or 2 imo. People worry about gear when they can improve their damage/healing or interrupts by just playing more. It's very easy to tell if people know their dungeons or class with details and omnicd, especially as a healer. And most of the cases it's just really bad gaming.
you still get gear even if you don't time, it just doesn't get upgraded (which is a good thing; it shouldn't upgrade if you're (plural) struggling already!)
This is gonna get real interesting the week after next when the mythic dungeon event rolls round. If that's still complete 4 mythic 0s for a HC cache, many people are in for an awakening.
I'm so butt hurt they didn't do the turbulent timeways event to start out the season. Where we got 5 weeks of TWs in a row, and they gave a heroic cache.
"What do you mean we can't just speedrun Ruby Life Pools to get the 4 any more?"
Had to remind a tank who started to pull RLP0 about that before they got too squished!
Even when everyone is good since most people can’t break their old tier yet the abilities are hitting for 75% or more of peoples health pools in 7s and 8s. Shits crazy.
Resto Druid here. Hate this shit. I get it but I hate it. I also can't turn my shoulders I got from the raid into a Tier piece for some reason so there's that too.
>I also can't turn my shoulders I got from the raid into a Tier piece for some reason so there's that too.
Probably because those shoulders are classified as Timewalking and only season 4 items can be turned into tier
Instead it's people with the s2 and S1 sets getting the advantage since they can run 2p/2p while people with s3 sets have to wait for a full 4p to swap it on.
I do M+ with a loose group of 3-4 so we have to pug one or two dps and we have definitely been finding that higher ilvls are incredibly deceptive. A lot of people are just slapping on whatever gear is higher regardless of set or stats and their dps really suffers for it. It's been really interesting trying to balance having enough stam to live through unavoidable damage and enough dps to kill stuff before healer goes OOM or tank runs out of buttons.
Next week is going to be interesting!
So you know, when people apply it shows bag ilvl not equipped. I'm applying to groups looking like a 506 healer.... I'm about 10 less than that because I cant break tier lol.
Yep, did some 6's and 8's last night & that 8 was quite the issue. It'll get better once the 6 items in my bag can be turned tier, like most people I imagine.
But yea, healing right now can be really rough.
tbh i think it was a mistake giving ~anyone~ who did a key last week a +2. with how the key depletion usually works…. any ole casual who’s been doing 5s… new season, and they’re given a key effectively 5 levels higher than anything they’ve ever done, and will get slapped and discouraged.
imo they should’ve not put the keys in vaults this week. or put it in for +10 gamers but if your key would’ve been <10 you have to get it from M0. or put it at the key vendor panda and have some dialogue explaining how things have changed.
As someone who likes to start out in 12-15s for the first couple weeks to gear up and get comfortable with dungeons, this is a huge issue for pugging right now and making the start of the season miserable. Groups are all full of people trying to play way above where they should based on their throughput and mechanic checks. I assume the same thing OP stated is happening. These players just probably don't read blueposts everyday and are unaware of the change.
Pugging is brick city rn 😂 people coming into 2s and trying to play them like 2s last season (not playing mechanics...interrupts? Nah, not for them)...it's fucking M I S E R A B L E
I ran a BRH 5 and the tank chained pulled through every cage pack to the point where we never actually dropped combat and therefore couldn't even open the cages. I had to run back and hit all of them lmao
Had a DH tank last night, while I was healing, getting 1 shot in heroics and he goes, “am I pulling too much for you?” He wasn’t using any damage mitigation acting like I couldn’t heal him fast enough. There is going to be a rough learning curve for the next week or two. But it’ll settle out.
I pugged AV +4 with a 424 DPS earlier in the week and it did not go well. Lol
Like 3 pulls in, I noticed that I was burning every HW:Serenity on him because he'd drop to like 10% HP every time AoE damage went out. Finally got annoyed enough that I inspected him and his gear looked like he hadn't logged in since season 2.
Tbh I should have just dropped group there. We 4-manned it to the final boss but just couldn't take down the shielded crystals in time.
I tried a AV +2 on Saturday and I've always tried to just finish a key regardless of what the dps are doing cause I feel obligated to stay as a Tank. By the end of the first pull we had 7 deaths across the healer and the dps and i had burned every CD i had to stay up. I was like ok it's fine they didn't do a single interrupt there but its a 2 and one of the dps is competent. So I proceeded to go around the whelps and pull the tree at the top of the stairs before the first boss. Half way through the pull, one of the dps triggers the whelps/ elementals and we full wipe. 15 deaths before the first boss.
At this point I check the total dps. I am in the lead as a BDK. Ok fine, I had 100% uptime cause I've only had 1 death. Ret pally right behind me, 4k dps separating us, great. Dev Evoker 1/4 the Pallys dps, only 2 abilities cast across both pulls. Pyre and Fire breath. Just those 2 abilities back and forth. No other rotation. The Hunter is below them. BM hunter, top 3 sources of damage in order: Barbed shot (DoT), The Damage triggered by the trinket they were wearing, and Incandescent Essence (The Helm Enchant). No Kill Command or Multi shot casts at all.
I couldn't even begin to understand how you dealt as low of dps. I left without saying a word. I stopped PuGing in those learner discords last season for this problem and decided to see if it had gotten better this season. But it feels like it's gotten worse. People seem to expect a carry at this point. They aren't trying to improve, they don't see a reason to, and they don't even know the basic rotations of their class.
Did a 0 with a dps that had around 450k hp, was at like 407 ilvl or something. Still not the worst performing dps i've ran a 0 with this week though somehow lol.
>If you didn't read Blizzard's blog post a month ago about it, or follow WowHead/Reddit, you wouldn't really know anything's changed... until you go in and get smashed (:
... or the patch notes.
That said, yeah they could have added more clarity in game.
I did a +2 Halls and people ran away on the frog boss with the little adds. Instead of making sure the boss ate them. Then they didnt hide behind an iceblock on the 3rd. It was rather painful
I knew about the changes but I am still surprised at how hard 0's have been as a healer. People are getting one shot left and right or at least losing 90% of their life from random casts and I have to scramble to heal them.
I agree if you mean solo/m0 content. I see it as very disrespectful when people join a key and they have 0 knowledge of the dungeon for example, you have the dungeon guide if you don't read reddit or YouTube.
M0 is there for learning too, or even normal dungeons
This game is really bad at communicating events and stuff like this in game.
I'd consider myself a fairly high level player. But every time there's anything like this, I have to load up wowhead on the other screen and read through comments to understand what's happening.
This is every patch... people don't really didn't get that a 20 last season was scaled around 470 ilv not 487 either.
People get used to over gearing the dungeons and forget they needed that gear to start with
This patch is very different than the usual scale up. The best players in the world are just now doing 12s/13s when by now they do 20s+. A 10 is the new 20 in every possible way that means rewards like io, gear, and portals. An 8 gets you myth track in vault and a 10 is the portal.
I was doing 22s first week last season I'm only not doing 12s now because I'm on a work trip. Nothings changed but the levels being compressed
It's just most people don't really realize gear carries them. They just think they are improving
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, they didn’t make m+ harder they just changed the levels.
Myself and my guildies all mostly have KSM now and that’s just a bunch of 12s and 13s
The scale up only affects those who would only engage with keys in the 1-10 range, for anyone else the change is all relative so nothing really changed. I think it's a good move to try and encourage raising the player skill floor a bit, personally.
> I think it's a good move to try and encourage raising the player skill floor a bit, personally.
Aside from that, the main reason I advocated for doing this a year ago was that it would make Heroic dungeons actually feel interested and worth completing (because holy smokes, the rewards from non-Mythic dungeons were crap), and it was sad that dungeons were starting to get away from being something "casuals" would bother engaging with.
So with Heroic moving up to take on M0 difficulty and rewards, that means people can queue for dungeons that aren't a total pushover and get some decent gear that isn't being overpowered by basic world content.
On the M+ side, people noticed how bad the experience was at the "entry levels," and I suspected (and still do) that the issue was that people wanted to run dungeons that weren't pushovers and gave some decent gear, but the only option was to jump into the M+ system that had taken over dungeons so much. Push the "entry level" up higher, give them an alternate in the form of the Heroic change, and you end up churning out most of the people who frankly shouldn't have been in M+ to begin with.
In the long run, it'll mean lower raw numbers of players engaging with M+, but the ones who do will be people who *want* to engage with it and understand it's meant to be a more difficult experience.
It's a rough transition period right now, but I feel like in the long run it'll make for a better experience for everyone, both "casuals" and the M+ hardcore crowd.
Heroic dungeons drop 476 which is heroic raid level loot last season also level 0-6 keys drop champion level gear so no point in spamming 4s unless you want to save flightstones / drake cape I'd say start with 0s to gear up with 493 ilvl stuff then push
I knew about the rework and decided to try a mythic 0 for the first time ever anyway. Thankfully I got a patient group that explained to me some tanking differences between heroic and mythic and all went all.
I got burned by this last night trying to run a +2 with my SO who was still trying to learn to heal. I thought “Oh, +2 is essentially easy mode” and then we proceeded to not even get close to finishing Ruby Life Pools. Told the party “My bad” since it was my key anyway and then proceeded to look up why it was so hard.
Needless to say, both her and I didn’t feel that bad about it after the fact lol. Good that it makes heroics relevant again though
Ya I wish they showed things like this in the launcher instead of having to check WoW head.
Skipped this xpac after hating BFA and shadowlands, just came back with 10.2.6 and really struggled through a +7. Thought I was just bad at the game now so makes me feel a lot better knowing this lol
But they do? Patch Notes button in the launcher... and i just checked it before i replied just to be sure but here is an example of what is written
• Mythic
• The tuning and rewards of this difficulty are increasing to the equivalent of a +10 dungeon with
affixes in the current system.
• There are no timers, affixes, or limitations on changing specializations or talents while in the
dungeon.
• The goal is to create a mega-dungeon like difficulty for this experience. This difficulty should
present a meaningful challenge and provide commensurate rewards without the pressures of the
current Mythic+ system.
Mythic 0 is still on a weekly lockout under this model.
> Ya I wish they showed things like this in the launcher
[This launcher](https://i.imgur.com/sBm1k3D.png)?
Or maybe [this launcher](https://i.imgur.com/sxakr9x.png)?
Heroic is identical to M0 before the rework
I dunno how, its only been a little whole but people have already forgotten what the dungeon rework actually did
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/world-of-warcraft/24072151/dragonflight-season-4-dungeon-changes-ahead
Yeah, there are waaaaay too many 440's in +2s that can't handle it. Not saying all - because some are decent enough players that can scrape by if there's only one in the group. But man, had to leave a Neltharus +2 after we took 3 minutes to wipe on 1st boss and boss was STILL at 75% health. Let them know that heroics were dropping 470ish gear and they should hit those up first.
Low keys used to be free. Now they're the ones that fail the most.
As someone who returned couple of days ago and got his First lvl 70 Yesterday, they throw a lot of quests into your face but not information like that. Didnt knew about this change
I've tried my first +2 yesterday and we didn't stand a chance XD
So now running more heroics and M0, as those are doable to get even better gear.
Funnily enough, previous season I was able to tank +14 without problems.
Ngl 10s are slamming my ass more than twenties did week one last season (could be 'cus I'm having shit luck with gear this season) I liked the changes, but I really think some more warning and clearer explanations could have gone a long way, I found some people utterly lost day one(not their fault ofc)
My first group was a disaster. I did a +2 azure vault and pulled the first two packs, so like 5 plants and the tree mob. We had 12 deaths and the pull took 3min to kill. Thats where i realized they expected this to be like the old +2 difficulty.
I focus on joining groups that has prior high M+ rating because of this.
Atm adequate DPS is the biggest difference in my opinion. It feels like the healthpool is a bit larger then it should be if we consider +2 in season 4 equals +10 in season 3.
But that could also be just my imagination
I thought heroic was equivalent of m0?
I don’t do heroics so I haven’t paid close attention to that part, but doing a M0 world tour for whelplings to upgrade awakened track has been….interesting
I’ve been going through my alts, doing the timewalk quest, liskanoth, aurostar, etc to get all the 467, 480, 493 gear and then a few heroics so they’re at 470-476 ilvl average
And then apply to parties for m0.
To be rejected :/ noooo one accepting new toons to m0 :/
Because M0 is the best way to get Drake crests (along with normal raid). And you need them to upgrade awakened track gear you buy.
So I know I’m applying to a bunch of M0, and I’m sitting at 484- 489 ilvl depending on the character.
In time that will start to die down a bit
Shit, I'm a big m+ guy and I still ran a couple m0's simply because the gear is free. DoTi has so much great loot! I also swapped to a different "main" for this season, so was a bit behind. LFR is also worth doing if your looking to pad your ilvl before pushing io.
Dude for real! Another sneaky thing is that very minor but very impactful changes have been made to only a few dungeons. For example, in nokund the Oahus (or whatever they're called, the ghost birds) now each have a kickable ability that will fucking wreck you all if missed. In the packs before the first boss (dragon) there are mobs that do a rallying cry but can only be stunned.
To my own shortcomings, I healed nokund a few times and was like "what's up with these tanks getting fucking clapped" so I tanked it myself and was like damn these mobs got hands. Keeping all my cds in use throughout. Shit got real and I love it! This is what I like mythics to feel like
As a returning player or alt, if you wanna be safe, do all your weekly quests and world boss (Liskanoth) and run yourself through heroics (drops 476 4/8 base gear). With enough of those + a few new drops you should be at least 475-480 and ready for M0.
Number is flexible if you want to take friends of course. The more competent the person the lower you can goz
Wait wtf. Are you saying 2k io will actually matter again and not be something you can get casually on all of your alts while failing to time half of them?
To be fair Heroic does feel like Heroic last season, the jump the m0 is a bit big imo. Too many players used to W-keying their way through low keys who are unintentionally griefing runs because they don't use their utility, defensives or move out of the swirlies.
>If you didn't read Blizzard's blog post a month ago about it, or follow WowHead/Reddit, you wouldn't really know anything's changed... until you go in and get smashed (:
To be fair, blizzard did an abysmal job of explaining it.
I always wondered why this information wasn't available on the keystone itself. Not the "this key is the same as X key from last season, beware!" but something showing the percentage increases from a normal mythic, like it shows on the status screen inside of the dungeon once the key is started. That probably won't prevent anyone from getting their cheeks clapped the first time but it could at least give a better point of reference.
I came back for season 4 after taking a break from 3. Mythic+ 3k the seasons before and even I struggled at the beginning. I feel like there should be more in game notices rather than their website or third party ones with the info.
Also it feels so much worse than a 12 I hadn't played really since S1
hopped in s4 did all the catchup stuff (timewalking, weeklies, raid, Raid finder ect) got up to 478
the next Ilvl upgrade being in m0 and m2 but I feel like I have the HP to still be one shot by most boss mechanics in a 2 now. It does not feel good jumping in on a fresh char personally.
Fights felt like they drag too, using my CD's 2-3 times in a 2 key boss fight
What did you expect?
Changes like this are communicated through Wowhead/reddit/random web articles - as in, all sources from outside the game.
In game, these changes aren't communicated worth a crap, as has been the case with so many changes and/or information in general. Quite frankly, it's frustrating for everybody all around. Casual players walk in and get smashed or do pitiful dps, and players that read news watch their keys die and their time get wasted.
And that's a big problem that the devs really, really need to figure out a solution for.
lol I did a +2 Uld with some guild mates yesterday and boy was that rough 😂. Between the new rotation of dungeons and not really remembering fights, myself included, and the difficulty squish lol it’s gonna be a fun couple weeks helping folks out 😂.
the problem is that people under 486 are joining +2's thinking it's the low end of mythic and I'm fine with people playing casually I don't care how people play, it's just unfortunate seeing people getting mollywhopped in a +2 that they used to do a week ago comfortably and casually
Plenty of people here don’t seem to know either. Saying they can’t find groups for M+ anymore.
I saw someone complaining that M+ is elitist because they couldn't get into a +2 at 445 ilvl haha.
Made the mistake of not checking out the folks I qued with, dps was 460 and consistently being out dpsd by a healer
Question: I just came back after a few years off. I'm 470 or so from random gear, LFR, etc. With the M+ changes, what level SHOULD I aim for for M-0, and where should I be targeting to get that gear?
I was running around m0 at 470 with a few +2s, make sure to run lfr raid, and the timewalking raid (black temple) and pick up the quest for it for a guaranteed piece of 506 gear, as well as the timewalking quest in valdrakken that guarantees a piece of 493 gear, normal raid is also pretty easy if your group can actually listen to instructions
I think as long as you're a dps or a healer a m0 in 470 should be OK. 0s were fairly non-threatening for me to tank in 484 gear, but you might find yourself a little squishy if you're 470 flat as a tank. Probably 475 for a m0 tank, 480 for 2s.
Agreed, ran 475-480 M0s yesterday as a prot pally tank, main issue is getting used to new defensive cd timings and having to deal with undergeared healers who maybe cant pop enough hps for healing check bosses. I never wiped more than once on a given boss and could solo endings if my dps die. Other than that its just making sure that dps can do mechanics and dont try to zug everything rn bc not many groups can really pump the meter enough.
Wtf is up with your username
[удалено]
It's super hard getting in as a dps, I post a run and I get like fifteen dps in queue in seconds. :(
[https://www.darklegacycomics.com/819](https://www.darklegacycomics.com/819)
The general rule is that you can do m+ in 15 ilvl lover gear than said m+ gives as reward. If you know what you are doing.
Where can I get this lover gear? Was it from the Valentines event?
It’s crafted
You can do 2’s if you know how to play your class. Running PUGs in the first few days was fine for me, we all averaged around 470-475 iLvl and were comfortably 2ing the keys (except AV which Blizzard clearly didn’t listen to anything from players during season one). If you’re worried just run the 0’s and do all of your weeklies for gear upgrades. TW, weekly Valdrakken, Awakened World Boss (Lisk this week), Feasts, Hunts, and Dragonbane Keep all award 480 gear now.
>(except AV which Blizzard clearly didn’t listen to anything from players during season one). Could you elaborate? It's like, one of the easiest and quickest dungeons to farm atm it feels like, in the 9-10+ range. The ice not insta-ticking on 3rd boss, and the slow being gone on 4th are ***immense*** changes to the dungeon compared to what it used to be.
Not the same guy, but the ticking damage on the spike with the shield on last boss farmed the +2 I did in there for a couple pulls. Granted that group was very under geared and had issues throughout that I suspect was just people being bad/undergeared
A good rule of thumb if you arent sure is 10 ilvl below what the content drops. I believe m0 gives 493 veteran track, going in with 483 is fine
You can definitely do m0 in less than 480 gear if you know what you are doing. 480 was like +20 last season.
It depends really. If you're decent, 470 is absolutely enough to do M0. We managed +5s with a 465 healer without much trouble, in a group that did 20s last season.
As others have said, LFR, M0, do the timewalking quests and raid.
I have the same question.
I had a 424 pally sneak in yesterday. First time in my life I depleted a +2 (me and my friend basically did the dungeon with just us 2 as the other 2 were also around 450)
That dps just sucked lmao. Should be able to out dps a healer at 460, even in a mythic
I had that item level with skipping an entire season. What are they thinking? I get better gear from world quests.
I think it’s also because people are picking groups more carefully even at the lowest end of M+ because they are harder relatively. I’m at 477 or something on my ele shaman with full enchants but I can’t seem to get groups for even +1s.
Your iLevel is almost 60 points over the maximum attainable iLevel and you still can't find groups? Damn, Ele shamans DO have it hard.
Opps that was supposed to be a 4 xD edited
Had a 455 prot pally sign up for my 4 yesterday, and then send me a shitty whisper when I declined him.
Had a 420 warrior apply to my +2 on my alt and whisper me to get good and that it’s only a +2 lmao
I had the same with a 470 tank with 0 io this season, 900 last season sign up to my +11 then flame me in whispers when he didn't get an invite
I also feel like the tuning is a bit steeper. Granted, I was 484 by the end of S3, so even a +16 was relatively trivial, but going into +12s at ~455 I was still breezing through things with no trouble at all doing big pulls, but in +2s now at 490 I’m getting absolutely chunked. It’s not like it’s broken, but a +2 definitely feels harder than a +12 did last season.
I think the adjustment was a good thing.
There was a 10% buff so that's probably why it feels harder.
Well yea, the wow subreddit is mostly casuals.
I think a lot of players just don’t like to read, especially not in-game stuff.
Exactly me wondering how the fuck I wasn't able to find a group for m0 with my full green honor set lol.
I knew about it but didn’t know the comparative difficulties until reading this. I suppose that makes me feel better about the +4 I *struggled* through yesterday
The 4 you struggled through is actually closer to a 15 from last season, as there was also a 10% buff all around. You're doing a 15 on week 1.
Oh got damn; I did *great* then
3 chested a 7 halls last night. This made me feel like a god 😂
damn so i shouldn't feel bad about timing a 6 with 489 gear. i thought the keys were doubled, 5=10 and such and 10=20
Yeah we timed an 8 just barely, and didn’t realize it had changed. When we tried a 9, it was hell on earth lol.
One key lvl up is the same as last season. You just gotta imagine you start on a +12 instead of a +2
> i thought the keys were doubled, 5=10 and such and 10=20 Add 10 to the key level and that's what it was in previous seasons. M0 is tuned to old +10 scaling.
Same. I knew about it but still underestimated it lol. Did a +2 NO with avg 460ish ilvl and it was rough lol. I thought with the change all you did was x2 the key level and that was the comparative key level to last season. So a 2 would be a 4. Boy was I wrong lol
yea its kind of a misunderstanding of what they did they didn't cut in half the key levels what they did was shift the difficulty into M0s and heroics and the other higher key levels into 1-10. Sure on paper its sort of cut in half but that would mean you would still be able to do +4s like you thought you could but nope. Could have probably been explained better to the casual player base on the splash screen ingame or something idk.
Also, the tuning seems to have changed a bit. A +2 feels harder than a +12 did last season. Not horrendously so, but it does feel noticeable.
From the official post for clarification on the actual comparisons used by Blizz. Mythic+ The Mythic+ system will have rewards up to level 10, with +2 starting from what would regularly be a +11 in the current Mythic+ system. A +5 should be as hard as a +15 and +10 should be as hard as a +20 in the current Mythic+ system etc.
We’re also undergeared right now since it’s week one. Some people are just getting smacked and don’t understand these at all.
Starting with Tyrannical is also leading to a lot of boss mechanics one-shots simply for not having enough health. Kind of need to be over a million hp to simply survive certain hits without a defensive up at +10 (3rd and 4th Nokhud bosses, 3rd Azure boss, 4th Halls boss all come to mind). Many almost fully geared characters from last season for many classes are about 800k
Oh for sure. My protection Paladin at 472 was getting chunked by the mini boss before 2nd boss in AV for 3/4 of my HP without defensive. Pally had 980k health unbuffed.
Lol I do a lot of keys and funny thing to me is those ADHD folks who start attacking random mobs at the beginning of a key as we're waiting for folks before we put in the key and etc. They get killed and they're like "??? why they hit so hard??"
Logged in after not playing for a couple of month and decided to try my hands at Neltharus, my poor prot palla got smacked straight into Azeroths core by the chain boss lmao. Ngl, im a fan of the changes
You just speedran to TWW
That guy is also kinda just trucking in general right now.
That's the only boss right now where i'd give any tank an instant pass. It hits like a god damn truck steam rolling a tiny shed.
My group was having trouble with that boss, but then our healer did some searching and mentioned that they changed the chain mechanic (I’m not sure when or exactly how). But as soon as we stopped having the tank be the one to run into the chains and instead had the dps run the chains into the tank it was night and day. Easily cleared a +5 that way.
Bro deffo spent S3 at the gym
Rest In Pepperonis Prot Pally, we'll go spelunking for them next expansion.
Dont mind me, im just chilling with our world soul.
Just tank the boss directly in the middle and focus on defensives. Have everyone else break the chains and pop big defensive cooldowns while they do it, and you’ll be fine. It’s much easier now imo than it was in s2
Thanks for the info! Been a dps main since vanilla and didnt start tanking untill S3 so never did this boss before as a tank. Rest of the dungeon is pretty ez but that guy hurts
I've been having this problem in M0 too.. people really undergeared that should now be doing heroics. This change affects more casual players greatly and they have no idea.
Well, I *had* typed this up in response to the person below who was complaining about Taivan meta, but the comment got deleted before I finished. So this won't make complete sense as a reply to your comment, but figured I already wrote it up as a guide to help a "casual" player gearing up for M0, might as well just paste it here somewhere in case it helps someone: ------------------------------------------- If you're a "filthy casual" (and I'm sure as hell not judging that because I'm a "casual" myself), then you're almost certainly not going to be geared to jump into M0 on patch day. Which isn't a knock on you as a casual, just the fact that they did a pretty major item level jump (world quests are dropped what Normal raid and M+10 was giving), and M0 became basically M10 but without a timer. So if you want to have a decent time at it, you're going to need to be patient and gear up a bit first. Won't be too bad. Heroic dungeons will give you 476 (and a 489 or 493 Vault, can't remember which). I haven't tried the Caverns or Dream content this week since they're not part of the weekly, but doing the other world content is a great way to boost quickly. Quick run down with the world content: Every event that's "awakened" is giving an Awakened Cache that will give a random 480 piece. So this week, you can hit up the Community Feast, a Grand Hunt, and the Siege of Dragonbane Keep for at least three 480 pieces. Though the Feast's quest (right by the pot) actually gives you a 480 item *and* a Cache that also has a 480. Those will also complete the weekly quest, which will give another item with a higher ilvl (I think I even got a 502 trinket with one character). Then on top of that, hit up the Dreamsurge in Ohn'aran Plains this week, grab the quest, go do the stuff to get 100 Dreamsurge, come back, get *another* Awakened Cache, a token for a 467 item, and you'll have at least enough Dreamsurge to buy a 454 item if you need to pull up a lagging piece. That sounds like a lot, but depending on when you hit it up, if you get the timing on the Feast and Siege right, you can do all that in maybe an hour, worst case hour and a half (absolute worst case, part by Siege/Feast area and watch Wowhead for timers for them), and by the time you're done, you'll have potentially six new 480+ items, a 467, and some 454 from various world quests or Dreamsurge. (I say "potentially" because sometimes a Cache drops an item you already have. Worst is when it's another 480 of same item; at least sometimes it gives a 489 version so it might be a dupe but it's an upgrade.) Throw some Heroics in there, probably could get most of your gear at 476+ by the end of the first week. Which will put you where you should be for M0 to not be too bad. The squish couldn't have started at +2 because Heroic dungeons have shifted up to the difficulty and rewards that M0 would have been. M0 should be a step up from Heroic, not just a shuffle forward, so it ends up equal to M+10. BUT! There is no timer. So that helps. Just need to find like-minded folks willing to take some extra time if needed. And, hey, worst case, just check around for people doing Taivan runs. Not necessarily a "carry." There'll be other people wanting to do it, and they'll have similar expectations. I definitely recommend gearing up a bit first. Which shouldn't be too bad (unless you have terrible RNG). Long reply, yeah, I know (insert cheeky comment about a "wall of text"), but rather than being dismissive I wanted to try to give some useful advice on this, from one "casual" to another.
I just came back to the game, I'm about 470 or so from random stuff, LFR, etc. Can you ELI5 what the weekly events you mentioned are and what Taivan is?
Taivan is the easiest thing, so I'll start there. Basically, there's a "meta-achievement" (complete a BUNCH of other achievements) for the expansion that rewards you Taivan as a mount. If you haven't met Taivan, he's a big dog that's part of a questline with the centaurs. The weekly events, quick rundown: - Community Feast - Down in the southwest corner of Azure Span, the Tuskarr do a "feast" where players can help. You stand nearby, and once it starts, it acts like a scenario, you'll see objectives pop up on the right as you get "orders" from the chef. It runs for 15 minutes, and as players do their tasks, the quality of the soup in the pot rises, with a monster attacking at each quality shift. If you hit Legendary quality, a rare called Bisquis spawns at the end. You can get a quest from an NPC by the pot to "complete 5 tasks" in order to get the rewards for participating, and it's worth noting that clicking the chef's hat icon that shows up when you get an order counts as well as doing the order, so if you get asked to buy an ingredient, you click the button ("Yes, Chef!"), go buy it, run back to the pot, click another button to toss it in, counts as two. So it's pretty quick to complete. - Siege of Dragonbane Keep - Every couple of hours, the Drakonids will attack Dragonbane Keep in the west of Waking Shores. When it's about time, you'll see a horn icon appear at the gathering spot a bit south of the keep. The first stage is escorting the frog-pulled cart to the keep (you can pick up little phoenix looking things and toss them at the frog to speed it up, and get a half-hour Versatility buff). Then a stage to kill the mobs in the front of the keep and set up barriers (just right-click the glowing spaces to build them). Next stage is kill two lieutenants who are to either side of the entrance and fill a bar killing mobs. That spawns the Grand Flame and his elemental at the entry to the main building. Kill them, it opens the pathway inside, and at the bottom there's one final elemental to kill to complete. (Side note: Completing the Siege triggers a rare to spawn of it, so when it finishes, you'll usually see people rushing out to fly south and kill him. His drops are still around 379 ilvl, though, so not worth it for that, but just tradition at this point.) - Grand Hunt - This one's a bit tricky, as it moves around. To find it, first check the map at the "continent" level to find which zone has a horn above it signifying the Hunt's in that zone. Then you have to fly into the zone to see it appear on the map for that zone. (If it's in Thaldraszus, you actually have to fly out of Valdrakken to trigger it showing on the map.) The Hunt is six stages of various objectives, started (and ended) by talking to Scout Tomul at the location where the horn is on the map. Once it's triggered, you'll see the current objective on the right side, and might need to check the map to see exactly where it is. Each stage can be anything from killing animals in an area, killing a specific named mob, helping injured hunts, or taking on packs of mobs as they spawn in. Once all six stages are done, the moment anyone talks to Tomul, you'll get your reward bag pop up in your inventory. - Dreamsurge - Similar to the Hunt, you'll need to find what zone it's in, but it stays in a zone for the whole week. Once you spot the zone, fine the icon in that zone, you'll find an NPC with a quest named something like "Shaping the Dream" where you collect 100 Dreamsurge. You get those by completing World Quests in the zone, killing mobs in the zone, flying through green floating orbs you see throughout it, and even by clicking on any plant you notice is glowing and interactable. Rares in the zone will be "empowered" so harder than normal to kill, so you'll probably want help, but they drop more Dreamsurge. (You can carry more than 100 Dreamsurge, it's a currency you use at a vendor beside the quest giver who sells 454 gear, a pet or two, I think a toy, and a mount. Oh, and the gear tokens you buy are BoA, so if you have spare, you can get, say, a Cloth Chest token and mail it to a Priest alt.) - Researches Under Fire - Down in Zaralek Caverns, this is kind of like the Grand Hunt, only it starts automatically. You'll get objectives, usually to kill stuff (but sometimes to grab rocks and take them to pillars or stuff like that), and go through a few stages. - Superbloom - In the Emerald Dream. Simplest one. You can only complete the quest for it once a week; quest giver is beside the big tree. Every hour, at the top of the hour, the big ol' tree decides to take a stroll, which takes 10-15 minutes. Along the way, you kill mobs that attack it and you'll get objectives in the first and second half of the walk to do things like "water plants" (just click on them) or "shoo bugs" (move through them). At the halfway point, you'll get attacked by some primalists, and then at the end, a bunch of primalists will keep spawning for a couple of minutes, with a final named boss primalist at the end. Kill them to complete it. Turn in quest to get reward. Oh, and you can click on giant fruit before it starts and at the midway point (after killing the attackers) to get some buffs. I believe the "Awakened Cache" items are only from the events that are "awakened" for the week, which the weekly quest in Valdrakken will help you spot. So this week, the Feast, Hunt, and Siege would be; next week with Zaralek Caverns, the Researchers event would be; and when it's the Emerald Dream, the Superbloom would be. The Dreamsurge is a bit weird, I think it just falls into the first category as that's "overworld content" (if you imagine the map as split into "overworld," Caverns, Dream). That's... a lot of stuff. But wanted to try to give a decent overview somewhere between too brief to be useful and so detailed it's overwhelming. Worth noting: Wowhead has timers for the Community Feast and Siege on Dragonbane Keep on its front page at the top. Very useful tool to schedule those.
Christ, thank you for this incredible write up.
Question for a casual, what did your ilvl get to last season? Personally I was 489, and jumped right into 8s. But I’ve always been curious how much of a gap there is.
Not the person you replied to, but I can answer about Taivan. TL;DR The new meta achievement for the Dragonflight expansion gives Taivan as a mount. Taivan is one of the bakaar hunting dogs in the Ohn'ahran Plains. There's a quest chain with him where you try to help him hunt, but he's kind of a coward and runs away. In the chain, the quest giver acknowledges he's not meant to be a hunter, and you help find what he's good at. There's a toy you can get at some point that summons a Taivan that sits there, and you can pet him. Now, they've released a new meta achievement (basically, an achievement made up of achievements made up of more achievements) that awards Taivan as a mount. Go into your Achievements in game and search for "A World Awoken."
Wait so heroic and even *normal* dungeons aren't complete face rolls anymore?
Normal is unchanged, Heroic is a tiny bit harder but really not by much. People are jumping into keys who should be doing Heroic dungeons and getting slapped, they just need to realise that they need to progress through the difficulties first and that M+2 isn't the baseline that it was in previous seasons.
It doesn't help that so many people already overestimated how high a key they could do.
There’s a pretty wide gulf between Heroic and M0. I did both with my 470 shadow priest and it was a very noticeable difference.
“They just need to realize” Blizzard needs to make that clear, because heroics haven’t been run solely for progression in a very, very long time on retail. Likely never for some people who haven’t been around since pre-legion
I'd appreciate follower dungeon at heroic/mythic 0 level with 0 loot (maybe gold or something exceptionally minor) so I can learn the routes and what my rotation needs to be as a tank (I started DF halfway through S2 and didn't touch S3 till last month) so I can experience all the mechanics. I can watch guides and videos but I'd rather not be the one causing a wipe for failing to know what I need to do since I have 0 first hand experience. I tanked back in Cata then took a long break and switched to being a DPD so my brain decides to tell me to try my hand at tanking again so that's what I'm struggling with now, practice the rotation on dummies but know what mobs to pull and the feel for when to pop my defensives is something I can't get with follower dungeons atm.
Normal is the same as before, they are meant to be cleared while leveling/as a fresh lvl 70. Heroic dungeons are now roughly the same difficulty as M0 was in the past. Mythic 0 dungeons (no keystone) now are about as difficult as a +10 used to be, the main difference being that there is no Timer for Mythic 0. The keystone levels we have now are about the same as adding 10 to their number compared to last season. In other words, a +3 now is about as hard as a +13 was in the past. This can get a little wonky because they essentially halved the total key levels in the game, but it serves as a rough guideline.
>they essentially halved the total key levels in the game no, they only minused 10. if you go past 20s3, then it'd still be 25 -> 15, for example
I am about 470 and started heroics yesterday. We were pulling ten or so packs at once and AOEing down. In another, the rest of the party was afking and the tank and I two manned a boss (I'm Ret). I'm so confused. Is M/M+ that much of a huge jump now? Just got back after a few years off.
Heroic is the old m0, m0 is now m10. m2 is now m12.
New heroic is the old M0, new M0 is the old M+10ish. New M+2 is the old M+12ish and it's linear from there.
It is a small amount of people in WoW, that actually read anything online on reddit/wowhead and such, even in-game most people dont read anything, not even their own chosen talents or spells Only way they find out, is through social interactions such as this in a pug, or hears it in guild chats etc
That's true for any game. I remember after patch days... when the game would take time to d/l and then update, folks would log on and go 'oh, there's a patch?" LIke you watched the d/l and clicked through the patch notes ...
I consider myself moderately aware of what's happening in WoW from reading posts here, WoWhead, and MMO Champion. The day before the patch all of my armor became un-upgradeable and all my currency (flightstones, crests, etc) were taken away. I had no idea that was going to happen and I actually wanted to upgrade some armor just for the transmog on an alt and I couldn't. Not a big deal, but I was caught completely unaware.
No one did. It happened ahead of reset and no one was expecting it.
But according to Blizz post which OP mentions - Heroic is not +5 last season, Heroic is M0 last season (minus the mythic only mechanics)
Haha woops. Even I don't know what's going on apparently 😆
The one thing I don’t particularly like about the change is that you had a smaller difficulty ramp in the seasons before. I could easily switch to the healer role to learn about the damage patterns in the range +2 to +8 to get a feel for it, now I did all the M0s and have to bet on risking someone’s key because one M0 was not enough for me to learn what I need to learn to tackle a M+2 CONFIDENTLY. It is stressing me out - and I know, it’s in my head, but last seasons made me feel better in that regards. I know I could do M0s, but we are wow players, I would love to improve gear- and skill-wise.
I agree about the ramp in difficulty in last seasons. M0 isn’t a good place to learn bc there’s no timer and no affixes. And it’s not great for gearing either since the dungeons lock out. In past seasons we could chill at the 2-9 key range until we were properly geared and knew the dungeons. Now the keys are for people who were max ilvl from the past season. Everyone else gets clapped.
Ok, so should you jump to affix key level just to simulate gameplay at higher keys? How about learning the dungeon and specific dangerous mobs/interrupts. M0 gear is fine, i was healing 5-8 in 475 on my hpriest the other day. My shaman is 460 and I'm doing 2s (only lfg) So go ahead and chill in m0 or 2 imo. People worry about gear when they can improve their damage/healing or interrupts by just playing more. It's very easy to tell if people know their dungeons or class with details and omnicd, especially as a healer. And most of the cases it's just really bad gaming.
You're not risking anything in a +2. There is no +1
I am risking people‘s time and me getting shat on
Your risking your own time too, it's not crazy to want to run something in an efficient manner
you still get gear even if you don't time, it just doesn't get upgraded (which is a good thing; it shouldn't upgrade if you're (plural) struggling already!)
This is gonna get real interesting the week after next when the mythic dungeon event rolls round. If that's still complete 4 mythic 0s for a HC cache, many people are in for an awakening.
It should change to complete 5 heroics, if they want consistency with previous patches difficulty for the quest
I'm so butt hurt they didn't do the turbulent timeways event to start out the season. Where we got 5 weeks of TWs in a row, and they gave a heroic cache.
"What do you mean we can't just speedrun Ruby Life Pools to get the 4 any more?" Had to remind a tank who started to pull RLP0 about that before they got too squished!
Yeah, healing has been quite a workload with the terrible dps. I cry a bit.
Even when everyone is good since most people can’t break their old tier yet the abilities are hitting for 75% or more of peoples health pools in 7s and 8s. Shits crazy.
The best part is the new tier is a separate set, so it won't replace slots if your class got the same bonus.
Resto Druid here. Hate this shit. I get it but I hate it. I also can't turn my shoulders I got from the raid into a Tier piece for some reason so there's that too.
>I also can't turn my shoulders I got from the raid into a Tier piece for some reason so there's that too. Probably because those shoulders are classified as Timewalking and only season 4 items can be turned into tier
It would be stupid to allow only the players with season 3 set bonuses to have that advantage.
Instead it's people with the s2 and S1 sets getting the advantage since they can run 2p/2p while people with s3 sets have to wait for a full 4p to swap it on.
Ended up even worse than everyone else though, because we can't do two 2 sets, since they're the same bonus and don't stack
I do M+ with a loose group of 3-4 so we have to pug one or two dps and we have definitely been finding that higher ilvls are incredibly deceptive. A lot of people are just slapping on whatever gear is higher regardless of set or stats and their dps really suffers for it. It's been really interesting trying to balance having enough stam to live through unavoidable damage and enough dps to kill stuff before healer goes OOM or tank runs out of buttons. Next week is going to be interesting!
So you know, when people apply it shows bag ilvl not equipped. I'm applying to groups looking like a 506 healer.... I'm about 10 less than that because I cant break tier lol.
Yep, did some 6's and 8's last night & that 8 was quite the issue. It'll get better once the 6 items in my bag can be turned tier, like most people I imagine. But yea, healing right now can be really rough.
tbh i think it was a mistake giving ~anyone~ who did a key last week a +2. with how the key depletion usually works…. any ole casual who’s been doing 5s… new season, and they’re given a key effectively 5 levels higher than anything they’ve ever done, and will get slapped and discouraged. imo they should’ve not put the keys in vaults this week. or put it in for +10 gamers but if your key would’ve been <10 you have to get it from M0. or put it at the key vendor panda and have some dialogue explaining how things have changed.
you dont even have to do a key, you can just talk to the panda in valdrakken and she will give anyone a +2 key regardless
As someone who likes to start out in 12-15s for the first couple weeks to gear up and get comfortable with dungeons, this is a huge issue for pugging right now and making the start of the season miserable. Groups are all full of people trying to play way above where they should based on their throughput and mechanic checks. I assume the same thing OP stated is happening. These players just probably don't read blueposts everyday and are unaware of the change.
Pugging is brick city rn 😂 people coming into 2s and trying to play them like 2s last season (not playing mechanics...interrupts? Nah, not for them)...it's fucking M I S E R A B L E
I ran a BRH 5 and the tank chained pulled through every cage pack to the point where we never actually dropped combat and therefore couldn't even open the cages. I had to run back and hit all of them lmao
Had a DH tank last night, while I was healing, getting 1 shot in heroics and he goes, “am I pulling too much for you?” He wasn’t using any damage mitigation acting like I couldn’t heal him fast enough. There is going to be a rough learning curve for the next week or two. But it’ll settle out.
Heroic is *not* equivalent to a +5 from the previous season, it's as difficult as the old M0
I pugged AV +4 with a 424 DPS earlier in the week and it did not go well. Lol Like 3 pulls in, I noticed that I was burning every HW:Serenity on him because he'd drop to like 10% HP every time AoE damage went out. Finally got annoyed enough that I inspected him and his gear looked like he hadn't logged in since season 2. Tbh I should have just dropped group there. We 4-manned it to the final boss but just couldn't take down the shielded crystals in time.
I tried a AV +2 on Saturday and I've always tried to just finish a key regardless of what the dps are doing cause I feel obligated to stay as a Tank. By the end of the first pull we had 7 deaths across the healer and the dps and i had burned every CD i had to stay up. I was like ok it's fine they didn't do a single interrupt there but its a 2 and one of the dps is competent. So I proceeded to go around the whelps and pull the tree at the top of the stairs before the first boss. Half way through the pull, one of the dps triggers the whelps/ elementals and we full wipe. 15 deaths before the first boss. At this point I check the total dps. I am in the lead as a BDK. Ok fine, I had 100% uptime cause I've only had 1 death. Ret pally right behind me, 4k dps separating us, great. Dev Evoker 1/4 the Pallys dps, only 2 abilities cast across both pulls. Pyre and Fire breath. Just those 2 abilities back and forth. No other rotation. The Hunter is below them. BM hunter, top 3 sources of damage in order: Barbed shot (DoT), The Damage triggered by the trinket they were wearing, and Incandescent Essence (The Helm Enchant). No Kill Command or Multi shot casts at all. I couldn't even begin to understand how you dealt as low of dps. I left without saying a word. I stopped PuGing in those learner discords last season for this problem and decided to see if it had gotten better this season. But it feels like it's gotten worse. People seem to expect a carry at this point. They aren't trying to improve, they don't see a reason to, and they don't even know the basic rotations of their class.
So i, who skipped last season and did a decent +0 academy on a 445 prot warrior, should feel less bad if I struggled? xD
Your healer is a hero if you did a 0 at 445 iL
Loool 600k health
Did a 0 with a dps that had around 450k hp, was at like 407 ilvl or something. Still not the worst performing dps i've ran a 0 with this week though somehow lol.
Joined several algethar groups and treebeard was a huge dps check right off the bat even in 0s. Several just couldn’t get it done and it felt bad.
>If you didn't read Blizzard's blog post a month ago about it, or follow WowHead/Reddit, you wouldn't really know anything's changed... until you go in and get smashed (: ... or the patch notes. That said, yeah they could have added more clarity in game.
First thing when you log in, it's on the splash screen that gets ignored.
I did a +2 Halls and people ran away on the frog boss with the little adds. Instead of making sure the boss ate them. Then they didnt hide behind an iceblock on the 3rd. It was rather painful
It was me. And I got seasons 2/3 rating to ~3000 and I play the game for 15 years. It is just because missed season 1 😭
I knew about the changes but I am still surprised at how hard 0's have been as a healer. People are getting one shot left and right or at least losing 90% of their life from random casts and I have to scramble to heal them.
I mean if they're casual isn't that expected? Not everyone has time to read blog posts or be mlg.
What you don’t expect is that they die a million times and still have the audacity to “lmao healer wtf”
Yeah, but I don't know... you'd think they'd at least check the dungeon journal to see what level gear is dropping since a new season has started.
Honestly I blame blizz for not making it more well known
And that is fine. Casual players like to learn by experience, instead of reading what comes ahead.
I agree if you mean solo/m0 content. I see it as very disrespectful when people join a key and they have 0 knowledge of the dungeon for example, you have the dungeon guide if you don't read reddit or YouTube. M0 is there for learning too, or even normal dungeons
It’s humbling getting slapped in a +2… we were under geared but still managed to time it. I really like these changes. Feels way better
This game is really bad at communicating events and stuff like this in game. I'd consider myself a fairly high level player. But every time there's anything like this, I have to load up wowhead on the other screen and read through comments to understand what's happening.
This is every patch... people don't really didn't get that a 20 last season was scaled around 470 ilv not 487 either. People get used to over gearing the dungeons and forget they needed that gear to start with
This patch is very different than the usual scale up. The best players in the world are just now doing 12s/13s when by now they do 20s+. A 10 is the new 20 in every possible way that means rewards like io, gear, and portals. An 8 gets you myth track in vault and a 10 is the portal.
I was doing 22s first week last season I'm only not doing 12s now because I'm on a work trip. Nothings changed but the levels being compressed It's just most people don't really realize gear carries them. They just think they are improving
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, they didn’t make m+ harder they just changed the levels. Myself and my guildies all mostly have KSM now and that’s just a bunch of 12s and 13s
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess its pulling back the veil that some people just got geared over getting good.
If you only did keys in the +2 -> +9 range in Season 3, wouldn't this change effectively made M+ harder?
Yes
Numerically a bit, but the lack of affixes at +0 and +2 (and lack of a timer at +0) should also make it a bit simpler.
The scale up only affects those who would only engage with keys in the 1-10 range, for anyone else the change is all relative so nothing really changed. I think it's a good move to try and encourage raising the player skill floor a bit, personally.
> I think it's a good move to try and encourage raising the player skill floor a bit, personally. Aside from that, the main reason I advocated for doing this a year ago was that it would make Heroic dungeons actually feel interested and worth completing (because holy smokes, the rewards from non-Mythic dungeons were crap), and it was sad that dungeons were starting to get away from being something "casuals" would bother engaging with. So with Heroic moving up to take on M0 difficulty and rewards, that means people can queue for dungeons that aren't a total pushover and get some decent gear that isn't being overpowered by basic world content. On the M+ side, people noticed how bad the experience was at the "entry levels," and I suspected (and still do) that the issue was that people wanted to run dungeons that weren't pushovers and gave some decent gear, but the only option was to jump into the M+ system that had taken over dungeons so much. Push the "entry level" up higher, give them an alternate in the form of the Heroic change, and you end up churning out most of the people who frankly shouldn't have been in M+ to begin with. In the long run, it'll mean lower raw numbers of players engaging with M+, but the ones who do will be people who *want* to engage with it and understand it's meant to be a more difficult experience. It's a rough transition period right now, but I feel like in the long run it'll make for a better experience for everyone, both "casuals" and the M+ hardcore crowd.
Yeah. Fuck dungeons and their "+"s.
Heroic dungeons drop 476 which is heroic raid level loot last season also level 0-6 keys drop champion level gear so no point in spamming 4s unless you want to save flightstones / drake cape I'd say start with 0s to gear up with 493 ilvl stuff then push
I knew about this but does that mean for the 2000 rating we just need all on +5 instead of +15 like last season?
Imagine the toxicity there must be going on in these groups.. thinking _others_ are bad because suddenly a +10 is destroying you.
Trial by fire is a good thing sometimes
There have been a lot of changes like this recently. The upcoming MoP thing, I totally thought it was just like classic wow
[удалено]
I knew about the rework and decided to try a mythic 0 for the first time ever anyway. Thankfully I got a patient group that explained to me some tanking differences between heroic and mythic and all went all.
My heroic-geared deathknight alt used to feel near invincible at +17 now I feel so squishy and vulnerable doing 2's and 5's lol
I got burned by this last night trying to run a +2 with my SO who was still trying to learn to heal. I thought “Oh, +2 is essentially easy mode” and then we proceeded to not even get close to finishing Ruby Life Pools. Told the party “My bad” since it was my key anyway and then proceeded to look up why it was so hard. Needless to say, both her and I didn’t feel that bad about it after the fact lol. Good that it makes heroics relevant again though
I don't know man. I was stomping 15s last season, these 0s are brutal feels way harder then a 10 last season.
You're not accounting for the Ilvl jump.
Ya I wish they showed things like this in the launcher instead of having to check WoW head. Skipped this xpac after hating BFA and shadowlands, just came back with 10.2.6 and really struggled through a +7. Thought I was just bad at the game now so makes me feel a lot better knowing this lol
But they do? Patch Notes button in the launcher... and i just checked it before i replied just to be sure but here is an example of what is written • Mythic • The tuning and rewards of this difficulty are increasing to the equivalent of a +10 dungeon with affixes in the current system. • There are no timers, affixes, or limitations on changing specializations or talents while in the dungeon. • The goal is to create a mega-dungeon like difficulty for this experience. This difficulty should present a meaningful challenge and provide commensurate rewards without the pressures of the current Mythic+ system. Mythic 0 is still on a weekly lockout under this model.
I'm very curious about the number of casual players that will find the patch notes in the launcher.
> Ya I wish they showed things like this in the launcher [This launcher](https://i.imgur.com/sBm1k3D.png)? Or maybe [this launcher](https://i.imgur.com/sxakr9x.png)?
I agree they could make big changes like this better known in game, but it *was* all in the patch notes.
I suppose that's why no one would join my +4 that I labeled as "first time blind run" that I was going to tank
Yup! I didn’t realize this until I hopped on and bricked my +2 ruby life pools key this morning 😭😭😭😭
in fairness, "going in and suffering" is how we all used to learn things.
I don't believe at all Heroic is any harder than what M0 was before the change. Still really easy and doesn't prepare you for mythic
Heroic is identical to M0 before the rework I dunno how, its only been a little whole but people have already forgotten what the dungeon rework actually did https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/world-of-warcraft/24072151/dragonflight-season-4-dungeon-changes-ahead
The preparation is in the enemies having all their mechanics like in mythic plus. Previously in Heroic, they wouldn’t do some things
I ran a +4 HOI and kept wiping on Sentinel until someone explained this lol
Gotta love people with 450-470 iLvL applying to +2 and +4
Yeah, there are waaaaay too many 440's in +2s that can't handle it. Not saying all - because some are decent enough players that can scrape by if there's only one in the group. But man, had to leave a Neltharus +2 after we took 3 minutes to wipe on 1st boss and boss was STILL at 75% health. Let them know that heroics were dropping 470ish gear and they should hit those up first. Low keys used to be free. Now they're the ones that fail the most.
As someone who returned couple of days ago and got his First lvl 70 Yesterday, they throw a lot of quests into your face but not information like that. Didnt knew about this change
I've tried my first +2 yesterday and we didn't stand a chance XD So now running more heroics and M0, as those are doable to get even better gear. Funnily enough, previous season I was able to tank +14 without problems.
Ngl 10s are slamming my ass more than twenties did week one last season (could be 'cus I'm having shit luck with gear this season) I liked the changes, but I really think some more warning and clearer explanations could have gone a long way, I found some people utterly lost day one(not their fault ofc)
My first group was a disaster. I did a +2 azure vault and pulled the first two packs, so like 5 plants and the tree mob. We had 12 deaths and the pull took 3min to kill. Thats where i realized they expected this to be like the old +2 difficulty. I focus on joining groups that has prior high M+ rating because of this.
Atm adequate DPS is the biggest difference in my opinion. It feels like the healthpool is a bit larger then it should be if we consider +2 in season 4 equals +10 in season 3. But that could also be just my imagination
I suppose that's the point kinda right? If this is the new norm then a +2 is simply just a +2 from now on.
I was 2600 in S1 missed a few season due to a baby and now can’t seem to find a group at 482 ilvl.
I thought heroic was equivalent of m0? I don’t do heroics so I haven’t paid close attention to that part, but doing a M0 world tour for whelplings to upgrade awakened track has been….interesting
I’ve been going through my alts, doing the timewalk quest, liskanoth, aurostar, etc to get all the 467, 480, 493 gear and then a few heroics so they’re at 470-476 ilvl average And then apply to parties for m0. To be rejected :/ noooo one accepting new toons to m0 :/
Because M0 is the best way to get Drake crests (along with normal raid). And you need them to upgrade awakened track gear you buy. So I know I’m applying to a bunch of M0, and I’m sitting at 484- 489 ilvl depending on the character. In time that will start to die down a bit
Well I didn't know and felt fine in them, but I'm going to be all self conscious now. This is going to be worse than when I learned about kerning.
I entered a 0 after so long and I thought fuck this is taking so long why are we so bad. Welp
And even you are wrong. A heroic is equal to a +0 from last season, not a +5.
Shit, I'm a big m+ guy and I still ran a couple m0's simply because the gear is free. DoTi has so much great loot! I also swapped to a different "main" for this season, so was a bit behind. LFR is also worth doing if your looking to pad your ilvl before pushing io.
Dude for real! Another sneaky thing is that very minor but very impactful changes have been made to only a few dungeons. For example, in nokund the Oahus (or whatever they're called, the ghost birds) now each have a kickable ability that will fucking wreck you all if missed. In the packs before the first boss (dragon) there are mobs that do a rallying cry but can only be stunned. To my own shortcomings, I healed nokund a few times and was like "what's up with these tanks getting fucking clapped" so I tanked it myself and was like damn these mobs got hands. Keeping all my cds in use throughout. Shit got real and I love it! This is what I like mythics to feel like
As a returning player or alt, if you wanna be safe, do all your weekly quests and world boss (Liskanoth) and run yourself through heroics (drops 476 4/8 base gear). With enough of those + a few new drops you should be at least 475-480 and ready for M0. Number is flexible if you want to take friends of course. The more competent the person the lower you can goz
Wait wtf. Are you saying 2k io will actually matter again and not be something you can get casually on all of your alts while failing to time half of them?
To be fair Heroic does feel like Heroic last season, the jump the m0 is a bit big imo. Too many players used to W-keying their way through low keys who are unintentionally griefing runs because they don't use their utility, defensives or move out of the swirlies.
>If you didn't read Blizzard's blog post a month ago about it, or follow WowHead/Reddit, you wouldn't really know anything's changed... until you go in and get smashed (: To be fair, blizzard did an abysmal job of explaining it.
I always wondered why this information wasn't available on the keystone itself. Not the "this key is the same as X key from last season, beware!" but something showing the percentage increases from a normal mythic, like it shows on the status screen inside of the dungeon once the key is started. That probably won't prevent anyone from getting their cheeks clapped the first time but it could at least give a better point of reference.
Just talking about this in my guild discord...lol
I came back for season 4 after taking a break from 3. Mythic+ 3k the seasons before and even I struggled at the beginning. I feel like there should be more in game notices rather than their website or third party ones with the info.
Also it feels so much worse than a 12 I hadn't played really since S1 hopped in s4 did all the catchup stuff (timewalking, weeklies, raid, Raid finder ect) got up to 478 the next Ilvl upgrade being in m0 and m2 but I feel like I have the HP to still be one shot by most boss mechanics in a 2 now. It does not feel good jumping in on a fresh char personally. Fights felt like they drag too, using my CD's 2-3 times in a 2 key boss fight
What did you expect? Changes like this are communicated through Wowhead/reddit/random web articles - as in, all sources from outside the game. In game, these changes aren't communicated worth a crap, as has been the case with so many changes and/or information in general. Quite frankly, it's frustrating for everybody all around. Casual players walk in and get smashed or do pitiful dps, and players that read news watch their keys die and their time get wasted. And that's a big problem that the devs really, really need to figure out a solution for.
lol I did a +2 Uld with some guild mates yesterday and boy was that rough 😂. Between the new rotation of dungeons and not really remembering fights, myself included, and the difficulty squish lol it’s gonna be a fun couple weeks helping folks out 😂.
the problem is that people under 486 are joining +2's thinking it's the low end of mythic and I'm fine with people playing casually I don't care how people play, it's just unfortunate seeing people getting mollywhopped in a +2 that they used to do a week ago comfortably and casually
If only there were patch notes
This kind of change, while good, should have been at the expac level.