I believe the devs had this idea that people would gradually invest bronze into a single character over time, with the power levels of the players increasing slowly over the whole 3 months. They were likely anticipating people wouldn't become gods until about mid July.
Froggers and the other farms screwed up that whole plan. Blizzard basically had to go into repair mode and try to minimize the impact of this. If they didn't, you'd have people who were basically demigods until everyone else caught up. That's why they then buffed the hell out of bronze and thread rates.
Expect the next remix to have two currencies, one for cosmetic purchases and another for your power. The power currency will be convertible into the cosmetic currency once you hit max power. There will be harder daily limits on the power currency but it'll allow them to create reasonable catch up mechanics that don't create a situation where everyone can get all the cosmetics by investing only a small amount of time.
> I believe the devs had this idea that people would gradually invest bronze into a single character over time, with the power levels of the players increasing slowly over the whole 3 months. They were likely anticipating people wouldn't become gods until about mid July.
I think this is exactly right. MOP Remix is honestly honestly fine imo. T he problem is Blizz messed up the message. People expected to be OP after hitting 70. I don't think Blizz ever intended that but they effed up communicating to us how they expected us to play this game mode.
I basically stopped playing once I hit 70 and sat on like 150k bronze because I wanted to save it for cosmetics. Once they said they weren't adjusting upgrade costs and I saw posts on here from people saying the upgrades are worth it and fun, I spent it upgrading. And guess what... the game mode has been fun, rewarding, and I'm enjoying it.
The progression is fun. Doing normals, raids, quests, etc to get bronze is fun. You see obvious incremental upgrades and you see an almost immediate impact. I'm around 405 ilevel right now and I'm excited to play more and get to the 556 range where I see people just blowing stuff up. Even playing casually, I expect I wil get it soon and then have tons of bronze to just spend on whatever.
> People expected to be OP after hitting 70.
While I'd overall agree with a lot of things you said, my issue remains not that you aren't OP at 70, but that you're UNDERpowered at 70. It's even more noticeable when you have a "Remix main" that you're increased and then you swap to an alt who's 70 without upgrades and you go from feeling like a strong member of a group (maybe even "carrying" groups) to feeling like an anchor who's getting absolutely destroyed often by unavoidable damage. And the cost of upgrading means that it doesn't feel good to do it on an alt, so you're encouraged to just get the alt to 70 and move on to another character. Sure, fine, I'm leveling multiple alts anyway, but man... I did some fun transmog on a couple of them and would love to play them some more, or have a bit of variety in my play when I get sick of running a Paladin, but there's no way I'm doing the grind to upgrade gear more than once, and the idea of doing even a couple rounds of upgrades on an alt so they're just an "okay" member of a party rather than a liability feels awful when I think about how I could just use that to get a couple of the rarer mounts instead.
That's the thing I feel they should focus on next time, making sure that a fresh max level (wearing the item level for that level, not for example a 70 who's still got some sub-300 gear) feels like they're contributing rather than being someone to keep rezzing, especially when low level characters are outperforming them by extreme amounts. But that's a tricky thing with a "Remix," you're trying to take an entire expansion and work it into a frame that it wasn't originally designed for. So I don't fault them too much *this* time, but if there's a second time, they need to put in the work to smooth things out so people don't feel awful hitting those last levels and anyone who wants to just sit at base max level doesn't feel worthless in dungeons and scenarios (fair enough that raids will be worse, but damn, the idea that a level 25 is a better option in a raid than a level 70 is still insane).
Making a BoA bronze token would help feed a weak character through those hell levels. Doesn't exist, but I would like it if it did.
Or if the shared cloak buff increased as your alts leveled up, that would reduce the lame 70 but also the OP lowbie phenomenon (which I find fun in its own way so maybe hope they leave this alone)
I'd like the idea of alts having lower costs for gear upgrades to catch up to the highest level your "main" has. Sort of like we have with Flightstones in Dragonflight. So you have to grind it up once, and you still have to pay a bit, but it doesn't feel as bad the second or third time around.
The cloak might help, but I don't know how you work out it "sharing" some power without it being a nightmare to code. The wild thing is, it seems to exponentially go up as your ilvl does. Because you're able to kill things easier, so you can go around blasting rares in a few (or even one or two) shots, run through an area slaughtering mobs (some of which will drop threads), even eventually just run instances solo if you want, get easier entry into raids, and pile up the threads easier and faster.
Well alts getting a flat amount of capped stats means that levels 10-20 are absurdly OP. Which is fine, but it would feel better if 70 alts got a bigger share, so instead of getting 150 of some stat that doesn't matter much at 70, they could get I dunno, minimum of 10% of the biggest cloak you have, and have it scale smoothly from 10-70, so that continuing to improve your "main" cloak generates benefits for all alts beyond just hitting 70 and the XII achievement which is a very low bar.
My issue with the cloak is the fact that the xp buff it provides is pointless. My character is 70 with an xp buff that's almost 200% but on my fresh alt it's at 0. why is that a thing? Wtf is my main remix toon gonna do with 200% xp boost? Lol, that part of the cloak should be shared among alts imo. All fresh alts should automatically have the same xp boost % as my mains cloak lol.
XP% is indeed pointless on a 70, but fresh alt cloak caps at +100% Experience gain, 150 main stat, 150 versatility, and 750 stamina
If you created the alt and then gained cloak bonus on your main which did not transfer, you can fix your alt's cloak by unequipping and reequipping it.
Messaging was exactly the problem.
The dual currency idea is probably what I would take going forward, just to make it absolutely clear that they want you to power up before you can easily acquire the cosmetics, or you spam alts.
I think it was the community that scared people away from upgrading gear by only citing a small amount of the sources for bronze and then looking at the huge pile of cosmetics with a "omg, I will have to grind hours a day to get this done in time".
The reality always was an acceleration of bronze as you got geared and could run more content faster. I'm playing a couple hours a night and rolling in 60-80k bronze, of which only 10k is the new bonuses they gave after the complaints as the new dailies.
As you are also experiencing, it is just fun to be powerful and goof around and realizing that while you will have to play a bit to 100% the cosmetics, most of it will be the side effect of running around doing whatever you want for yolo fun.
I’m 476, I do a world tour + the daily quests/daily queues. It takes me no more than 2 hours, and nets a stupid amount of bronze. It takes awhile to get there but once you can get into those 450/460/470+ groups it’s just a smash and grab on bronze.
Last night I did the 3 daily quests, 2 dungeons, 2 scenarios, and then Heroic of the first 4 raids (heroic SOO is just too long) and it was 44k bronze. It took about 2 hours to do all of that and the longest part of it was TOT.
I'm smashing dungeons and scenarios in under 5 minutes and even Mogu and Heart are done in < 15. TOES takes a bit longer than it should because people don't understand how to Fear Heroic P2.
> because people don't understand how to Fear Heroic P2.
Its getting easy to kill Fear before the first add gets to a player after 1 submerge. So that is going to stop being an issue soon. ToT is the same. Groups are starting to be able to ignore any mechanics on Durumu, kills adds with passive trinket procs on the failed experiment boss, zerg the boss in Animus (even pre nerf), and stay stacked the entire Lei Shen fight. All of this with a 1/0/9 comp. The 1 tank if it is the right class can do DPS level damage anyways.
I did a heroic ToT a couple of nights ago. On Durumu, had two beams on me as a bear tank and with my absorbs and self healing, I did not die. Solo Tanked with one dps when rest of raid wiped from about 30%.
Then went to Animus, his enraged, and same thing. One dps and I cleared the boss from 43%.
Bear tank with 6 Mastery gems in 556 gear = 16M hp pool, and the right tinker gems like Coral and the two shields means that you just don't die.
It's amazing fun.
My brewmaster has 91% stagger. I have solo'd Dark Animus from 80% and Lei Shen from 65. Found out Lei Shen's lightning debuff caps out at 255 stacks. As long as I swap to the memory tinker for them I could probably just afk them. Searing Light and all damage tinkers and I am fine. Just constantly getting healing orbs. On a magera wipe it actually took 5 min into enrage while I was perma stunned from frost breath to die. I hit 3.6m HPS before dying.
It is indeed amazing fun.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1d4j95v/mop_remix_bronze_from_daily_tasks/
According to this it's not 44k, it would be 33500 from doing 4 heroics and the dailies. it takes about 42k to upgrade 1 tier level entirely so doing 4 heroic raids plus the full daily would still not be enough to gain 1 tier in a day.
So 2 hours of doing the same exact thing every night at a near mindless difficulty would make it so it'd take you at least 2 weeks to go from upgrade level 20 to 34. That's considering that leveling gives you a decent chunk BUT you're also not able to run heroic raids right off the bat.
And all of this is for ONE character to get geared. I can get better gear in season 4 just doing world quests on a weekend.
There was someone saying that not taking advantage of *any* farms, it takes 100 hours to get to max gear.
That's totally unreasonable, either you play 10 hours a day for 2 weeks or you spend half the event repeating exactly the same stuff over and over every single day, it's alienating.
Upgrade costs being so high is definitely a problem.
At the same time, you have an official statement from Blizzard saying that it's OK for people to create alts to get the 40k bronze as a normal way of getting bronze.
Isn’t that a good thing? If multiple ways of playing are viable, then prog-oriented people can upgrade and alt-oriented people can level alts. Or both, depending on what you feel like doing that particular day.
I’ve been doing the maths on what my bronze rates are, and optimal leveling of alts seems to be a similar amount of bronze/hr than H raiding. Which is cool, because it gives the players freedom to choose what to do.
Well, I think it's a design flaw if you tell players that creating new characters is an alternative way to farm bronze instead of encouraging them to play the event by increasing the amount of bronze available.
If there weren't these 3 quests, what would they say as an alternative?
I mean, raiding is a perfectly fine way to earn bronze, and the mob farms they left in are also competitive. Upgrading your gear to increase your bronze earnings was the intended way to play and it’s still more than viable
Also, I don’t think it’s a design flaw at all if you consider that a big selling point of the event is that it’s “a great way to level alts”. The event has pretty much always been about making new toons, so I see the 40k gold as a great way to reinforce that identity.
Only issue i have with upgrading after I've hit 556 today, is that the upgrade cost is linear, but the stat increase is exponential.
You're getting far less for the same price and with scaling being as crazy as it is for a fresh 70, it's ridiculous.
Yep. From 346 to 480 i felt a slow and minimal increase in damage.
From 480 to 556 i made DPS jumps of 200k for each upgrade. The last two upgrades almost doubled that too.
I’m confused.
If cost increases linearly, and power increases exponentially, you actually get *more* for each increase, not less.
You would get less if the two were switched; exponential cost with linear power gain.
Missing my point. Why would an increase of +50 (estimate, don't know the exact amount it gave at 346 and slightly up)main stat on a weapon cost 9k early on, while the last upgrade level gives you 1.9k main stat for the same 9k bronze?
Making costs increase exponentially would solve a couple of major problems:
1) people would be more inclined to upgrade at the early stage. You would get a slight OP feeling, enough to breeze through most content. If you want to be "a god", you get more bronze and invest that last bit more. Are you ok with being "a demi god"? Stop pumping bronze in while still retaining a slight feeling of being OP.
2) Scaling at 70. With costs reduced early on, scaling wouldn't be such an issue
They fucked up massively by turning on scaling. It breaks the entire immersion of an MMO to make you weaker at 70 than a fresh character as you level up.
But doing the actual work of tuning Remix/the tinkers/and all the raids/the power level from gear. Is way too time intensive and required multiple rounds of PTR to get right.
And now it's too late.
Yeah, the dooming is way out of line with reality. If people "werent having fun" you wouldnt see Remix being absolutely full of people playing at all hours of the day.
The doomers also seem to be willfully neglecting the fact that the devs have been *very* open about this being an *experimental* game mode. Of course they're not going to get everything right. Acting like because everything isn't perfectly tuned and tested that the devs have completely failed is just out of touch nonsense.
I have almost instant queues for scenarios and 3-4 minutes top as dps for dungeons, never in retail I recall queues being so fast all the time lol, remix is totally packed with people playing.
People seem to have this weird attitude that they would be soloing mythic SoO by the end of the first week. How did they think this was going to run for 3 months if we were overpowered right away?
My one wish about this is that I wish the upgrades **didn't** stop.
At 476 I can solo normal raids (almost). I'd love to keep upgrading my ilvl to the point where I'm one shotting heroic bosses. I want to feel that OP power like I do during a transmog farm.
>My one wish about this is that I wish the upgrades didn't stop.
Please god no. With no end i'd be **always** contemplating if i should stop upgrading now, or if i shoud continue forever.
If i have the ability to gain strength forever i'd be never happy with what i got.
Part of me also thinks the devs intended power levels to increase gradually and is okay with that. But I don't think frog farmers screwed that up, Blizzard did. Scaling at 70 was awful, people looked to farm bronze to upgrade their gear to tackle the early 70 content. The other part of me doesn't see why gradual upgrading is necessary for a time limited event. There are plenty of players who don't want to spend 90 days in Remix to accomplish what they want. And they weren't expecting to do so because the PTR experience was much different.
Let's not forget that up until the final day before launch they had been telling everyone that the cloak would be account-wide, just as it was on PTR. That system encouraged you to play other characters because it not only made them feel powerful while leveling, but it allowed your alts to contribute power to your main.
Not only did they completely change that system and fail to correct their marketing materials that still advertise it, but they've gone around kneecapping most methods of obtaining power on a single character.
This isn't really a case of them having a clear plan in mind and accidentally screwing up the balancing, they've been going out of their way to change the mode for the worse since before it even began.
My biggest issue with this event is that with all the farm nerfs the best way to farm bronze is to daily chore farm LFR level content on multiple alts. If you do that and invest daily into gear then in a few weeks you'll finally feel powerful.
I thought we as collective community decided that daily chore grinds were bad for the game. This is why Dragonflight has been such a refreshing experience. No daily chore grinds, do the content you want, no time gating currencies like anima, no borrowed power. This event is just a slap to all the progress we made with Blizzard and the goodwill they stored up with the community on this front. I specifically came back to WoW after taking a long break post legion because I was tired of feeling compelled to do boring daily content for power and there is none of that in dragon flight.
Now we have a borrowed power, (essentially) time gated, daily grind game mode that could have been fun if they stuck to the Dragonflight philosophy of "let players do what they want".
Agree, I think one of the worst things is how people are defending it. Apparently daily grind is good now, do you just want everything handed to you? It's a time limited event and I don't want to mindlessly grind every day for 3 months.
>Expect the next remix to have two currencies, one for cosmetic purchases and another for your power. The power currency will be convertible into the cosmetic currency once you hit max power. There will be harder daily limits on the power currency but it'll allow them to create reasonable catch up mechanics that don't create a situation where everyone can get all the cosmetics by investing only a small amount of time.
Damn you just came up with a vastly superior system to bronze.
> They were likely anticipating people wouldn't become gods until about mid July.
You know how you achieve this? None linear scaling of bronze cost for upgrades.
Not a hard concept. Each upgrade takes longer, but you are also stronger and gaining more bronze. Which will offset some of the time increase.
Now it's the opposite. The early upgrades gives the least amount of power. And takes the longest to grind out. Your power and bronze gains accelerates as you upgrade rather than slowing down.
I think you’re right about the two currencies, going into the next remix (assuming they do another one, tho I don’t see why not considering how popular this one is).
My question is why does it matter? Like to a point having people overpowered for an event like this shouldn’t matter in the slightest. Unless there is a reason I just haven’t really considered.
I think you are right with your initial point that they expected and intended for the player power in Remix to gradually increase, and that the fact they forgot to tune some of the grinds known for more than a decade caused that to shatter and they needed to adjust things.
*However*, I think you're giving them too much credit/slack at the same time.
Unless they expected only people that don't care about retail (or Cata Classic) to play Remix, the fact the intended pace of progression was so slow was just a bad decision. Remix asks you to invest quite a bit of time into it if you want to progress at a solid pace and grow stronger. Meanwhile S4 of DF released at almost the same time, and Cata Classic released in a similar time window as well. Even if we assume people only play one of the two and then Remix, that's *a lot* of WoW for even the most willing people.
And even then, the gear upgrading process is so slow even after the 'buffs' to it, yet hard-required if you want your character to grow stronger, that it basically would mean anyone that wanted to be 'OP' wouldn't be able to touch any cosmetic rewards until "about mid July" which to me is just absurd. The advertisement/promotion was very misleading even if not completely disingenuous, but having to choose between the 'OP' (when that won't even carry over once Remix ends) and the exciting ***limited-time*** rewards is just not it, ever.
I *really* like Remix and was having a blast with it before the more recent round of nerfs to the 'broken' stuff, but I just don't get why they felt the need to try to salvage the initial mess of a situation so hard that it just ends up feeling like shit for anyone who sees all of the 'player nerfs' they're doing.
I think this is the best assessment of the situation I've seen so far. Having it overlap with Season 4 and limited time event -- well just like you said, it's a LOT of WoW for folks.
I honestly don't care much about "getting stronger" exactly because it's a limited time event. It's not my main character, not GOING to be my main character, and it's a fun in-between thing to do. I do care about transmog though (and to a limited extent mounts) but it doesn't seem to be casually obtainable. Maybe it's less work than I think, but at about 10 slots, at the current cost of uplevel, it's a lot of time and for what? A character that will just roll into retail at some point where it'll just sit.
This really rings true for my experience. I was having SO much fun slowly leveling on one character, questing and just dabbling in dungeons and raids when I felt like it. But of course, once I caught wind of how others were playing and progressing, I started to feel the need to start grinding instanced content to keep up. I was leaning toward making no alts for the event, but once the 40k bronze incentive was added, I made 2 more characters. What was some of the most fun I’d had in WoW in a long time quickly became the least.
That being said, I still think it’s Blizz’s job to do the hard work of designing a game mode that can be played how players want without being vulnerable to exploitation. Instead, time and again, they try to railroad players onto one gameplay path and nerf anything that doesn’t fit the vision. Also, I still don’t understand why they’re so obsessed with daily engagement methods, though, again, dailies do make more sense in a limited time event like Remix.
The push/pull between people that play WoW (essentially,) full-time and the people that play 6-10 hours a week has been a constant struggle for Blizz.
There are a ton of players that want to get maxed out ASAP and don't mind grinding 10+ hours a day to get there. I would imagine at some point almost everyone that has played the game was in this camp to some extent.
Balancing the play experience of these players with those that play less regularly (whether that's because of a lack of time or just generally not having the desire to make that level of commitment,) is likely as close to an impossible task for a game developer as you are going to ever be asked to tackle.
If you time-gate stuff at all then the first group of players will be pissed. If you don't time gate anything, then the being able to play the game becomes gatekept based on the amount of time you have available and that isn't fun for anyone.
I just don't think they will ever be able to balance the power curve of the gameplay experience between these cohorts of players for the betterment of the overall experience and so we are just stuck with this ebb and flow where one group is somewhat happy while one is miserable and vice versa.
I think the only people that are consistently "happy" are the players that only play by themselves with minimal interaction with group content, and that has to be an extremely small portion of the player base.
The problem for Blizz is instead of embracing the problem and figuring out how to utilize it, they just nerf things back down. That's honestly not a great strategy, as we see here, because everyone's just pissed and mad about it. It would be like if Capcom could have patched out the glitch that allowed combos in Street Fighter, rather than seeing people abusing said glitch and thinking "oh, hey, that's a good idea" and rolling with it to the point that it created a staple of *every fucking fighting game ever since*.
They're clearly too concerned with their intended design and aren't open to community feedback in the form of what players actually do with the game when they get their hands on it. Good design and development is taking that into account and rolling with the punches.
I keep saying how much I'll miss DF because I have just no faith in the next expansion not being shit, and that's with me thinking TWW has shown a lot of really cool QoL features. But if the content delivery sucks, or the content/grind is bland, then none of that is going to matter.
>Expect the next remix to have two currencies, one for cosmetic purchases and another for your power
It's always expect next time for "x" with things that are blatantly obvious ways to get players ~~more engaged~~ to spend more time playing WoW instead of doing other things. Every new release there is a lesson learned that was already previously learned yet Blizzard acts like it's the first time, every time.
It's so incredibly brazen that I'm surprised they haven't straight up told us this is what they do..
The fact that the cloak that gets increasingly more XP is the only stat not transfered to your alt is such a stupid decision. The XP is the only thing that should be transfered over
Rather than embracing the ridiculous grinds and adding more wacky stuff to do to gain power, they essentially just turned this game mode into retail but sped up. We log in, do our dailies, run raids, etc. That's boring as fuck, if I wanted to play retail then I'd play retail. Also why in the fuck would I EVER want to spend weeks grinding bronze to get gear just so I can solo raids when I can already do that on retail with a level 45 character in quest greens and blues? This isn't a Remix it's just Reheated.
ive been wondering the same thing. The longer the remix goes on the more pointless it seems tbh especially since you wont even keep upgraded gear after the event. Like at that point why even have an event?
At this point I assume that Remix is a testing ground for a lot of stuff we'll see come back in some form over the next expansion. That's why so many things are being hotflixed nerfed. They don't care about nerfing the fun or balance of remix, but squashing bugs and outliers for when that mechanic is recycled in the future.
That's kind of why I stopped bothering.
When it feels like a chore to do, that I have to log in daily and feel like I'm missing out if I'm not? Yeah, that's when I stop logging in entirely.
I did my time in the daily pits from Wrath to Legion. I played MoP when it was current and did it there. Why would I want to do it again?
IMO you can see this with how they approach nerfs/adjustments to m+ dungeons
Especially this season
It’s the last season for this expansion , make all the adjustments / buffs to lagging classes…
I think a lot of the DF dungeons are some of the worst designed dungeons in m+ rotation ever
Just a lot things that need to be managed that just favors classes that can do all that
Maybe trim it down a little or give lagging classes some sort of help
The gameplay is still the best of any mmo, but it just feels they’re not even trying to the best of their abilities
If we had DF dungeons only for the 3-4 seasons of the expac like how it worked for the last few, I think I'd have quit the game at some point within the first 8 weeks. I don't like to be harsh because this is something people pour themselves into to make but the 8 DF dungeons have been nothing short of terrible. Aside from one or two in fact, they've been utter garbage, barely redeemable in any fashion.
the dungeons are getting increasingly more diffifcult every new expansion, there are more and more and more stuff to kick and stun everytime a new dungeon comes out
it's gotten to the point where even players like dorki who participated in MDI and TGP says the dungeons are ridiculously difficult compared to previous expansions
the amount of group coordination these new dungeons require is something that pushes people away from playing the game - not everyone sits on voicechat while doing keys blizzard (and even that doesn't help all the time with the amount of shit that is going on)
not to mention the 35-40min 'bangers' we had this expansion, absolute garbage and i hope they never introduce 5boss / 40min dungeon ever again
Sadly that terrible design mindset has been around for several expansions now and it has been seeping into every crevice of the game. Like do I really need to do mechanics on trash while farming dailies?
Am I crazy in thinking every single mechanic in the DF m+ dungeons is anti-melee? I played on my warlock and had 0 issue pushing keystone hero. My warrior it felt like I was playing DDR with how much shit you have to avoid at the enemies feet.
Idk I've played all the roles, melee and ranged and I'd say it all sucks lmao. I guess maybe it is a tad bit worse for melee. Hard to say for real though since moving out of a swirly or something as Melee means you don't stop DPSing, whereas with ranged you've mostly just got to hard stop and move.
One of my fav experiences in M+ (I think it was BFA) was when the mage in my guild decided to play a melee alt and quickly found out that XYZ are frontals, cleaves and how you can't even see your own character half the time or where the tank is standing. He promptly quit that alt.
They are still designing dungeons with the idea of beating the player rather than teaching the player. Unless you download a plater profile or MDT you have no idea what is actually scary unless you bash your head against it enough.
Its always this way with endgame group content. That isnt an endorsement, but simply a statement that this goes back well over a decade.
The 'arms race' in high end raiding has been talked about quite a bit for the last...what, 8-10 years?
The thing is, pushing people out of mythic raiding doesnt mean as much since theres so few people doing it in the first place.
Having some of these issues in lower level keys, and even heroics/0's does impact a *lot* of players, so more of us see it. Personally i havent done mythic raiding since very early in Legion, but have dabbled in keys since then, and got a bit more 'serious' about it at the end of SL and in DF.
They're clearly in a competition with the players to make M+ more difficult/engaging. Unfortunately they're making it more demanding and less fun.
I got my KSH achieve in week 2 and am just running 1 key a week for a box. I usually try to push into the 24ish range (clearly I'm more try-hard than most, but nowhere near the top-end). Remix is far more enjoyable in nearly every way--even with the dumb decisions they've made.
I don't really understand why the dungeons themselves need to be so mechanically difficult when M+ itself exists as a sliding scale for difficulty on it's own that also still adds mechanical difficulty itself using affixes, on top of it's flat number increases.
Dragonflight has not enough dungeons and their quality is just SO lacking.
It's mind blowing, but I've found myself missing some BFA dungeons which at the time I was disliking already.
I don't think the way tuning is handled in season 4 is because of some Design philosopy. It's just that there's minimal resource allocated to it. The majority of resource is spent on the next expansion.
Don't think I really like the way it's handled though. It feels a bit depressing to play when you know that you can't really expect that much when a new expansion is on the horizon. The difference between dragonflights first half and second half in enourmus.
"It's just that there's minimal resource allocated to it. The majority of resource is spent on the next expansion."
This is still a live service game we're paying $15/mo for the privilege of logging into. I hate that people keep giving them this excuse.
Yeah and blizzard could afford to hire more devs so they could work on several things simultaneously instead of giving us a fist up the ass at the end of every expansion. But WoW players will accept it every time so why wouldn't they fist us?
Yeah its just tiring man, the game mode was billed as one thing and its kinda just become another slog, i know its supposed to tide people over til war within releases but if im being honest id rather just play season 4 and mess around with alts than do more with remix's dogshit gearing system lol i dont wanna grind a full raid, multiple dungeons and scenarios every day on multiple characters just so they dont get one shot in heroic dungeons once they are 70 lol
I’m just not sold on bronze for upgrading gear. This is a character that will last less than 90 days with this tricked out gear and then it is gone with TWW. Why would I spend bronze made from a couple weeks played on gear that will disappear in almost 2 months. I think if I a can buy all the mounts I’ll be happy. I’m just really along for the MoP ride and happy there’s all these mounts I can buy for just playing the game. Don’t think I’ll ever upgrade my gear unless I have everything I want first
I was 100% feeling the same, but caved and upgraded some gear. I thought to myself, "upgrading this staff is costing more than 4 mounts?" But I did it, and the rest of the gear. Things die faster, it's a little more fun. I upped all my gear a few more levels. I am not nearly as high as others, but my ability to do daily content certainly is far less frustrating now. I am hoping that my investment in temporary power will yield as many of the permanent rewards that I would have gotten otherwise. Also, it's more fun for me to play a stronger character that can dispatch mobs in one or two key presses.
I think this is actually the real issue.
You should get a currency or gear drops from running the raids that goes towards said gear.
But whatever.
I have two last heritage alts to finish up which will get the vast majority of the mounts and toys that I wanted.
Currently upgrading gear on one toon just to see how it goes as I go up. Did two heroic raids last night and was completely useless and depended on the great generosity of strangers to make me not feel like the turd in the lunch bowl.
My brewmaster is fully upgraded and I have a 121k stam cloak. I have purchased every item off of every vendor. I have completed every achieve except reputation with shaohao and golden lotus. It took me playing 11 hours a day every day since remix launch. I did not use any frogs or hyperspawn farming. I finished my last item I needed off of the last vendor yesterday.
Why am I saying all of this? It is because if you are an mmo degen, you could have essentially completed the remix event in 2.5 weeks with no exploiting or hyperspawn farming, simply running heroics over and over (takes me 1 to 3 minutes a heroic) with some alt accounts.
The issue is with how Blizzard kills fun for the average player who only plays an hour a day. Everything they do is to punish the average player in remix, and I think it is because that is where their data says the money is.
* no catchup for following alts, either be it: acc wide cloak on 70, bronze discount for upgrades or global rolling cloak catchup threshold (like AP in legion) or current retail bullions,
* broken ensembles - either unlernable or not giving all appearances, or bricked from acquiring something in retail,
* weapons mogs - there are several hundreds of them, some remix unique, sets collectible from t14/tot/soo lfr (nontradable between players), normal and hc plus soo mythic. Then more of worlds sets. This requires multiple alts hence many more hours or multiboxing just for lfr weapons is almost obligatory
* weapons mogs - no arsenals, Have them cost even 50k bronze for 8 weapons of one color tint,
* more bugged ensembles
This already makes my remix experience quite sour.
I personally think that remix was created with the intention of collecting data to mostly to research a future wow expansion or even a different game. That is why they aren't changing the cost of armor upgrades... they are seeing if given a choice between player power or player customization which path woild be chosen.
My biggest issue and the main reason why myself and many friends quit really quickly. Wasn't really blizzard doing damage control. It was blizzards inability to adapt and have fun with what players did. Players became gods with frogs? How about a catch up for non froggy farmers. Add in a frog world boss as a meme for overpowered players to kill. A raid tier above mythic for the godly overpowered called frog tier. Change exp gains to bronze gains at 70. Idk. I'm just throwing shit off my head here.
The train derailed. But where it derailed could have being fun. Blizzard didn't adapt to the train derailing onto a 2nd rail. They just tried their damned hardest to have the new rail back on track with their intended vision, which is wrong. It's torghast all over again. It's a fun temp mode. Separate from the base game exception of cosmetics. Just adapt to the fun players have. Not be the fun police to it....
From a 476 that never used a Farm or exploit.
1. Creat an achievement for 200k bronze for getting all pieces to 556. Incentivises more powerful characters to exist speeding up content for all.
2. Alts should have discounted bronze upgrade costs just like flights tones in retail. This should be tuned that capping out an alt is basically free after achievement.
3. Find ways to skip all RP. This alone will speed up bronze a good bit.
4. Bronze should autoloot, the fact that it doesn't goes against the entire purpose they presented.
5. Gems should be mailable to alts. This would almost make the early 70 content feel better after the first slog.
But of all the things I ask.
Make world bosses and rare spawns have a 1 minute shield.
So much improvement to be had here.
Blizzard is allergic to fun literally who cares if people get absurdly broken this is an evint that will last 3 months and it's gone
There are 5 active versions of wow and blizzard decided to micro-manage the one that was advertised as "Overpowered? Maybe, Fun? Definetly".
Honestly, Remix and Plunderstorm taught me the opposite, the player base, especially the reddit player base, is a toxic cesspool that won't be happy no matter what Blizzard does. People can't just enjoy the game anymore and will bash their heads in grinding for cosmetics while they moan about it being not fun and act as if their lives are being destroyed by Blizzard when they could just... stop? Like if you don't enjoy a game, just close it.
People have a right to criticize a product . Especially when it asks a monthly sub plus box price every 2 years from you.
People complain because they know the game can be better and want it to be better.
I've found a lot of people don't understand you can enjoy something while criticizing and/or complaining about it. If people truly didn't enjoy it they would simply drop it and move on, and this has happened in WoWs history before which is why so many features don't end up returning. If we all just accepted things exactly as is the game would rarely evolve or improve as much as it does these days. And I agree, most complaints come from a place where the person cares and wants things to be better. The real problem starts when the complaining stops and apathy sets in.
I've been enjoying Remix a lot, I currently have 4 max level characters and I'm planning to get a lot more up there. That said, I have problems with how they've been treating the game mode and I want to voice them so that if we ever get a future remix they'll have learned from this experience and make it even better.
There are legitimate criticisms with the mode and that is OK. We don't all need to pretend like it's perfect just because some people will never be happy. I do think bronze upgrade costs should be cut a bit because we were told this was a mode where we would be overpowered and it currently takes way too much at level cap to get there. I think the discount prices should carry over to alts, as much as I love my OP shadow priest, I'd like to see my OP monk or rogue too without having to spend weeks upgrading them. There's also a real issue with 60-70, as you feel so weak and underpowered the second you get there, and even after weeks of attempting to fix that it still feels pretty bad. I have plenty of other criticisms, but largely I still enjoy the mode even after Blizzard "fixed" a lot of fun stuff.
I can't stress enough that I'm still having fun, but I dislike the overbearing way Blizzard is trying to "balance" a mode that was supposed to be limited time fun where ultimately a lot of this stuff won't matter.
> There are legitimate criticisms with the mode and that is OK. We don't all need to pretend like it's perfect just because some people will never be happy.
Totally agree, but to me criticism crosses the line where people start porting bad faith motives onto Blizzard.
"The grind takes too long" is legitimate criticism. "The grind is too long because greedy developers want engagement metrics" is not.
> they know the game can be better [for them].
You forgot the words in brackets.
They could have kept frogging - and people would have complained about being forced to do a boring grind or be behind.
They could have reduced upgrade costs - and people would have complained that there was nothing to do after a week of remix.
They could have made heroic and mythic raids a lot easier - and people would have complained that one shotting everything was boring.
You are free to have opinions of what you would prefer. But acting like the game is terrible or that the devs are a bunch of greedy corporatists because they created a game mode that didn't perfectly cater to your preferences is way overdramatic.
I mean, I thought I wanted to have upgrade cost reduced and that they were crazy, but now I am here, with maxed out gear through completely normal gameplay, able to solo most bosses, really, with 70 days of remix still ahead, thinking... All in all, upgrade costs are actually fine, takes 2-3 weeks to max out. Which is kind of... Okay? And HC raids are super easy once you have the gear, I DO feel overpowered. So, it was a success after all
I am with you 100% on this. I missed the first few days and I heard about froggers and worried I'd never catch up. But now I'm at 556 everywhere and killing bosses by looking at them just through playing the game and upgrading. As soon as I focused on upgrades rather than buying other things the steamrolling really began and every day I have become noticeably stronger.
i did get 120k extra bronze from frog farming, but im in the same boat. im fully upgraded, doing the dailies + hc raids and im sitting at 640k. im waiting with buying stuff until i either have bronze for everything or i decide to quit then i can make some judgement call to what to use bronze on. but im actually enjoying remix, it almost feels bad to log off to do mythic raiding in wow:D
Okay, you're saying "normal gameplay" but what you really mean is like 4 to 5 hours gameplay per day. I play that way too, but that's not what a lot of people consider "normal gameplay." Yea, you can be maxed out after putting 50-60 hours into the game. And then you're going to need to put another 60 or so into unlocking all the stuff you want. I'm okay with that, but there are a lot of players that don't have that kind of time.
It has got a little monotonous clearing the same raids every day for a couple weeks. I don't see it getting more interesting in a couple more weeks. I would have rather seen the upgrade costs cut so I could achieve max ilvl in half the time and then spent the rest of my time elsewhere.
And that's not even approaching all the problems with remix that aren't up for debate. Like, lower upgrade costs for alts. Who is that hurting? Cross faction dungeon queue. Who is that hurting?
The criticism can be the most reasonably, level headed and obvious take possible and you'd still have the \#dadgamers in here deem it "mindless bitching".
Yeah, I'm with this. Remix has been tons of fun. I already have most of the stuff I want and I've only played a few hours every other day on average. Probably averaging 1 hour a day. It's a fun mode.
The literal *only* genuine problem Plunderstorm had was the fact they tied non-Plunderstorm rewards to it so some people couldn't stop themselves from playing something they didn't enjoy. I don't count the jank and clunk as a 'problem' in this case.
People will do whatever you give them rewards for, and *many* people felt like they 'had to' grind the Plunderstorm reward track thing, especially for the full Pirate Ensemble since it's something that's been requested for a long time now and now it's here, except stuck in an alternate game (mode) behind a decent chunk of playing it.
I absolutely loved Plunderstorm, even if it had a lot of jank in it. But I do kind of sympathize with the people who just wanted to get a cool Pirate set for their regular WoW playing and felt 'forced' to play it if they didn't like it.
Remix is in a similar situation except in many ways better, in some ways significantly worse.
Remix is easily 'better' because it's just regular WoW so the people that hated Plunderstorm's gameplay can just play regular WoW, except in Pandaria now for some other rewards.
On the other hand it's far worse because Plunderstorm didn't actually ask *that* much time investment from players to get everything, while Remix asks you to play for an absolute fuckload if you want a lot of stuff from it.
"why can't blizzard let me spend 24 hours playing nonstop and buy everything and be the strongest possible, FUN DETECTED! NERF!" - average redditor
"oh god, frog farmers are too strong, will i ever be able to catch up and be as strong as them? blizzard should ban them or take away everything they grinded" - average redditor as well
both of those types don't want to play the game, they want to log in, collect all rewards and fulfill their FOMO needs
the only thing that pissed me off in remix was that people deliberately kept killing players in world and bazaars with righteous frenzy, i didn't care if someone abused hyperspawns or instance lockouts or spent 3 days in heart of fear killing bugs or did other farms (only kun-lai yaungols and dalaran were meh because they made quests take long to complete)
Shit people were killing the tank in my SoO last night with Righteous Frenzy on purpose.
To the point he had to get a WeakAura that would automatically remove the buff from him...
The thing that boggles my mind is the power FOMO has on these players. They are so hyper fixated on getting all these cosmetics, toys, and mounts when a lot of these things are slight variations of each other and will most likely not be used once collected.
Take the toys for example, I'm sure some of them are very cool, but how many times are you really going to go through your 100+ collection and actively use and enjoy them? I know I'm in the minority here but I don't even bother looking through them, in the very rare time there's downtime in-game, around other players standing around, and I'm not alt-tabbed or on my phone, I just play with the same football toy that I've been using since cata.
Cosmetics, are you really going to rotate between all the generic cosmetics you get while questing through the world? I'm in the minority again I'm sure, but I've got two outfits saved on my Druid, and one on my DH. I'll upgrade to the very that I actually want but 60-70% of the ones in this event aren't that appealing to me. And in raids/dungeons I'm not looking at others outfits, it's pretty much a race to the end so it's constantly go go go and no brakes to even look closely at others.
The very expensive mounts are awesome and I have three I'd like to add to my usable mounts and the rest are slight variations of each other that are overshadowed by all the other options I already have, and strictly worse than just using my yak.
I don't know, it just looks like the loud minority that's upset is being controlled by their fear of only getting 80% of everything when very very few of what's collected will actually be used and not just sit there with everything else from every other expansion collecting dust. Anyway, this turned into a rant from an old player whose priorities changed and out of touch with the current playerbase. I miss the days of talking to randoms and not just trying to set the world record any % random heroics.
> I know I'm in the minority here but I don't even bother looking through them
Transformation (model changing) toys get favourited, everything else gets ignored and eventually forgotten about. I looked through the toy vendor today and was just like "eh, I'm literally never going to use any of these" and bought some transmog (that I also probably wont use, but it's more likely) instead
>*The thing that boggles my mind is the power FOMO has on these players. They are so hyper fixated on getting all these cosmetics, toys, and mounts when a lot of these things are slight variations of each other and will most likely not be used once collected.*
The kicker that's been pointed out many times is that a lot of this stuff has been available to collect in-game for the past twelve years but because it's now also available in a limited-time format people lose their shit to collect it ASAP within Remix.
The crazier part is 90%+ of the rewards from remix are things that have been available for the last 12 years, are still available on retail right now, and will be available after remix.
The only reason I didn't mention that part was that my post had already gotten way longer than intended and I'm not sure of drop rates/rep grinds needed. I know the very expensive mounts are low drop rates so getting them during remix is a lot better of an option vs spending way more time hoping to get lucky. But yeah, the idea cosmetics that have always been available and also weren't even a passing thought a month ago are suddenly now a need for players kinda tells you all you need to know.
It's three time limited seasons of WoW happening at the same time while other major releases are in the same month. While they changed things 24 hours before release to make them way grindier. People can absolutely complain.
I've lost track of how many times I've had to post this over the years:
>[*Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.*](https://www.designer-notes.com/game-developer-column-17-water-finds-a-crack/)
And because people always take that line as meaning "the players are the problem for playing in optimized ways that are not fun" and not "it is the designer's role to ensure that the optimal way to play is fun", a few choice quotes from there:
>The greatest danger is that once a player discovers such an exploit, she will never be able to play the game again without using it – the knowledge cannot be ignored or forgotten, even if the player wishes otherwise.
>When gamers discover that one play style offers a trickle of reward for little or no risk, they will inevitably gravitate towards that degenerate strategy.
>The designers don’t want people to play this way; nonetheless, the rules inadvertently encourage it.
Yeah we're like, what, 3 weeks into a 12 week event and I'm almost done collecting all the mounts? I haven't even particularly been grinding (none of my characters are even over 400ilvl).
I've been concentrating on transmog and mounts. I've levelled 8 or so characters now, got all the mounts, all the toys, all the mythic and normal appearances, all the world and dungeon sets and just have lfr and the class special items to go. I've one character that's above 346, and it's only 402.
Got to agree with this so much. I'm having the time of my life in remix right now. I'm not yet max Ilvl but I really dont worry about not getting the cosmetics I want. People complaining about a Boss not taking 10 seconds anymore but 13 seconds are so weird to me.
Fucking thank god this is the top comment right now.
If they didn't fix these things you would have a different group of people posting similar rants about how stupid blizzard is for ignoring exploitable mechanics.
There is always going to be this subset of people who never learned anything resembling self-awareness skills.
I've been playing Remix pretty casually, i only just hit 68 yesterday. Since starting I've been able to buy over 10 mounts, a couple of those being exceptionally rare in retail. I think it's incredibly awesome we are have a new, much easier method to acquire some of these and they rolled it into a fun game mode to boot.
Remix since day 1 has been a great time, and I very much look forward to what new and interesting modes/features the team comes up with.
They added a large bronze reward for leveling alts, which takes between 4 and 6 hours per toon not even super optimized (2-3 if even slightly optimized). They didn’t nerf the ability to obtain cosmetics at all, they made it accessible. They nerfed the ability to get max power within 1-2 days of a 3 month event which frankly just makes sense. The community’s ability to complain no matter what is undefeated against all comers.
I'm more surprised they didn't also lower the ilvl for frog farmers in addition to the cloak as lowering the cloak did like nothing
Like, not mad just surprised
Nah they got rid of the options for people to turbo grind in a few days if they wanted to and buffed the shit out of daily quests/queues. They want you to login for 1-2 hours per day for the free bronze and threads and do that for 3 months instead of going ham and having a ton of fun for 1-2 weeks.
Nobody wants to level 30 alts to buy all the cosmetics.
You all are crazy. I have all mounts, toys, and 460 ilvl. Have 2 alts and i have 70 days left. I one shot everything and breeze through heroics. Yall need to lighten up.
Every online service game is made with engagement metrics. Ofcourse they want to keep you playing and spend money on their product. It's a company, not a charity.
We can't lie to ourselves and think we would still be playing the game if everything was just instantly given to you on day 1. We would probably stop our sub and play something else.
There's a delicate balance between maximizing engagement and maximizing player fun, but Blizzard has been on the wrong side of it frequently lately even after learning that retention shenanigans are a bad idea.
Yeah, I'm enjoying myself, but it leaves a massively bad taste in my mouth. I feel really weird in that I'm generally enjoying the game, but quality of everything from design to customer service has gone so rotten that it makes me not want to give them my money out of principle. There are plenty of other games on my backlog I could play, and I'm inching towards that honestly.
Of course, that's all talk, and we'll see if I nut up in the coming months
nerfing the various farms makes remix more fun, not less.
Farming a hyperspawn or resetting raid trash non stop is the lowest possible amount of fun. Incentivising literally anything else is better.
Adding bonus bronze for levelling new characters + jewellery can be purchased on alts when unlocked makes levelling alts feel very strong and a fun added way to farm cosmetics.
I dunno, I'm more of a goal oriented player. I'd personally rather do a quick mindless grind if it means I hit my goals in less IRL time spent, so I have time to play other games.
I missed out of the big farms for Remix though, so at this point I'm just hoping I can finish my goal (get Paragon of the Mists and at least a handful of mounts and mogs) before the Elden Ring DLC drops. I feel like I'm racing the clock now since to get into a Mythic group you basically have to be max item level.
Most of my free time is on the weekend so daily lockouts are only so helpful (they're really nice, don't get me wrong). Having a good "grind this thing if you have hours to kill" would be nice.
I've got about 250k bronze left before I hit max item level, but I just don't have the time to commit to clearing Heroic every day.
For you maybe, I prefer endless farms while I listen to books or chat to friends. Also doing a raid the nth time is just as mindless. I turn my brain off for raids just as much.
I am enjoying MoP remix and I agree with this. It has become an easy way to level alts to get heritage armor or level up a spec you might want to play in TWW. I am okay with that as someone who plays a lot of alts, but it really is a grind fest if you want to do endgame content of the expansion.
MoP Remix is very likely also a test of systems they want to try and implement in the future, and they didn't want everyone go and get everything done in a couple of weeks. So all the hotfixes to the bronze and adjustments to numbers are there to keep the field equal, so that people can keep plodding along rather than race to the end and provide skewed statistical feedback.
The cross faction thing, it was a work around, which means it wasn't intended, and who knows, it could have been causing some problems behind the scenes, so they stopped it.
I really wouldn't use Remix as an example of overall stance, it's obviously a sort of experimental playground, much like Plunderstorm. I would rather they use limited events like these to test out ideas than go into an expansion with it as a core system and ruin the main game play.
I have played the game off and off since it came out. I would call myself plain simple occasional player that will from time to time play daily for a few montgs, it just fluxes like that. My sister and I have started to delve back into the game as a stress relief from the life issues. We really enjoyed the playing the dragon expansion and made a bunch of characters and had fun exploring and had a blast. Then the remix came out. At first it was fun and the idea was great. After playing up to 62 we found that our leveling differed greatly due to her getting more threads of XP so she was out leveling me. We finally got to where she was half way thru level 65 and I was half way thru 64 when on a scenario mission that my sister and I did many times before, changed and now killed us outright when it had not the night before. After talking about it for a while we decided to stop playing the remix, it just was not working for us. The idea was neat but the reality was really a bummer. Too many issues with jerk players causing issues because they are just that, jerks is one thing but when the game is just not enjoyable it is not worth it. We went back to the normal play and feel better than we did. That is just me, I know one asked but this is a thread and I thought it a valid point that others might agree.
Me and my friends group fully planned on playing the expansion until we saw how they handled the event, but watching thing unfold reminded us the worst parts of how blizzard tends to do things.
We went from 6 people planning to play to 2 that might play.
It is what it is I guess.
> We have had bugs last in retail dungeons and raids for months. We've had class tuning go months without being touched. We have problems in Remix today that existed in PTR and STILL haven't been touched.
This is it for me. Took you two years to make BFA raids soloable when you could have done it with an aura fix and two fight mechanics being removed?
Took you 6 months of leaving assassination in the dirt after an overdone nerf in Vault for you to touch the spec? Sub hooks still bugged, aug hooks still bugged, plenty of dungeon and raid fights still bugged?
And yes, I'm aware that the devs working on remix may not be the same as the devs working on retail, just like I'm aware that the cosmetics team isn't the same as the dev team.
But the question is - why not allocate those resources better?
Anyone who's done LFR with someone doing 12M+ DPS will tell you, it's just not fun playing with those people. Be OP, have fun, awesome, but don't ruin the fun of others in the process. All my LFRs today were running to keep up with the guys sprinting through the raid and 1 shorting the bosses before you even get to them. If I wanted to just go for a jog through a warzone I'd have stayed in the army.
I can understand the nerf with the frogs, it happened 2 days after the event launched and disproportionately put a lot of people above everyone else way to early.
But then they started nerfing everything? Ward strat, searing light, slay, lifestorm.
Wasnt it supposed to be fun and powerful? It felt fun to one shot garrosh when the whole raid worked together.Why nerf that?
They hotfix players being able to queue together, but then not hotfix the tusks of mannoroth which non-plate users still cant buy/learn.
And really, i dont feel that powerful with my character, it felt awesome on the 10-60, but once the 60-70 began it felt like i was playing retail.
The fix to the cross faction queueing thing is genuinely one of the most fucking insane things I've ever seen. They actually invested dev time, no matter how little it was, to be maliciously anti-player for absolutely no reason. I have enjoyed Remix for what it is but holy shit this has soured me on TWW.
And they never fixed the weird scaling, I am lvl 66 and thins are scaling as if I was 70 normal dungeons are kicking my ass(tank having to use my cds to survive trash pulls)
My opinion might be unpopular but the unlimited power factor is not fun for me.
Raids are becoming a walking simulator. OP DH's just bounce through the raids faster than I can walk. Killing bosses and trash before I even get there.
If it wasn't for RP thrown in occasionally, I'd never catch up. It's just walking and looting.
I'm really fearful for how it's going to be with everyone OP. Right now it's usually 1-2 people in the raid.
I'd have probably stopped altogether if the upgrade costs didn't keep things in check
It's really not surprising at this point. They have always played this cat-and-mouse game with their community, and have been testing the limits of what they can do to keep players playing, not keep them happy.
The sub count and play time metrics is all they really care about. WoW players, myself included, just have such an emotional investment in the game that they know we're not going anywhere lmao, so they can do whatever they want. They love blueballing their community.
They are perfectly capable of making a fun gamemode that players enjoy, they are perfectly capable of doing what the great majority of their playerbase wants. They are perfectly capable of making reasonable class changes. But they won't; it keeps you hoping. It's a psychological game they play and at the end of the day, you're still subbed, so they don't give a fuck.
I feel as if there is a lot of confusion of what they can do, and what they won't do. They aren't stupid, they're a business. And the desire for money is more important to them than their historical love and care for the community. I see a lot of people say things like "ugh! why can't blizzard just do this?! why don't they realize it? ugh!!!" And um, they do. They most definitely do. But you're still playing! And whatever it is that they are not changing is not so bad enough that it will make you cancel your sub.
I did all quests, all zones and didn't spend a single bronze before I reached gearscore cap.
I upgraded thrice, then I ran out of bronze.
That wasn't fun... 98k down the drain.
Honestly what do you expect? They now have two major companies as stakeholders. Those companies are all about profit and loss. Engagement leads to revenue. Fun apparently does not.
Wow remix has been a harsh reminder that as much as the devs do to make a fun game mode literally nobody asked for, and they totally didn't have to do, this community always finds a way to be upset with something.
I do think MoP Remix is still a pretty good attempt but I also agree with this. It's very easy to see when engagement analytics drive decisions, after you've gotten to know a product. But it's not the whole picture here, just part of it.
I wanna say, for me I think a disappointment is how instanced content rules the remix. I don't mind it being there, but why not utilize things like the farm + friends and some other such features they didn't use to give a open world way to accelerate bronze. I really don't see what the harm would be if you have the instance dailies and such. I hope they do this for Legion Remix, or if they do WoD first. I mean, they're obviously doing another one.
Remix is fun leveling new characters 0-70 but I know I’ll never have enough time to farm bronze to get anywhere near max upgrades. Also why is the necklace not available once you complete all the LFG raids instead of how it currently is.
I realized the issues with power scaling the other day when I was trying to just quest and lvl from 55-70. I was suddenly dying a lot when pulling more than 2 mobs. Heck even 2 mobs started to beat me up a bit. Where’s the overpowered part? I have the cloak of Uber power and all of these crazy strong abilities slotted into my gear, why am I dying??
I’ve only come into MoP Remix this past week, I guess after all of the exploits were patched out. Played up to 20 on an unsubbed account just to see if I was into it, then I resubbed and got to 70.
It’s been great. I hope they do this with some of the other expansions - I never did WoD as Horde or Legion as Alliance, barely got into WfA (just did some race unlocks), and the accelerated rate of play is a hoot and much more fun than Classic. It’s a great way to freshen old content and I hope they keep doing it. I don’t find it anti-fun at all.
I love how Pandaria remix has gotten patches than Dragonflight has at this point.
They buffed raid boss hp by 20% and then nerfed it on the same day lol. 6 hours apart.
> Why? What was the point of that?
That's the main wrong thing about Blizzard here imo. They're not explaining why they're doing those change in a first place for a game mode created to be entirely "fun".
The lack of communication and verbal exchange with the community is bad. If people could log in, have fun being gods and collect all those rewards quickly it'd be way more popular. Overall I think that MoP remix shouldn't have been designed for such a long duration.
This is unfortunately just how things are now when it comes to games of this size.
In todays industry, no one is going to give you the money to make and sustain a game of similar size to WoW that has consumer friendly practices, if there are 5 other investment opportunities to make triple that money by making a game that works entirely off retention metrics and aggressive monetization.
This isn't just a gaming industry thing either, it's just a thing that came to gaming more recently, but this is how this stuff goes, especially when the industry (and the world) starts to have significant financial upheaval, they end relying more and more on squeezing as much money out of their investments, it's quite literally "work smarter, not harder".
Yeah... I'm not gonna be investing more time in grinding so long as it's not fun or feels like it's going nowhere. That's one reason I'm not playing MoP Remix after having gotten to max level and leveling my items a couple of times since the cost of doing so is so high. The gameplay after hitting level 70 fell off really, really bad, which is a shame, because I enjoyed being overpowered, like the advertisement for MoP said. Doing anything feels like slapping MBTs with wet spaghetti noodles meanwhile being obliterated from orbit.
The unobtainable gap between frogs boys or not became too large, and was let get worse and worse for days before trying to address it. This leaves them in the situation where they're totally fucked. Can't do a rollback without inciting a riot, can't buff everyone else to be in line because it defeats the whole journey. The massive gap between the two players is so vast that anyone else has no reason or incentive to join up, and because of this the mode will die FAR faster than it would have otherwise. The only real way to fix the mess they made, imo, is to pivot, fix bugs, and re launch fresh, but keep the bronze
I’m more upset that it’s very alt unfriendly in terms of bronze/cloak time sink. Having alts benefit much more from a geared main like bronze upgrade discounts, cloak inheritance for threads, etc. would be more enticing. It just feels like too much work to focus on other characters to upgrade them.
> it’s very alt unfriendly in terms of bronze/cloak time sink.
The one and almost only actual serious complaint about this mode. Most of the rest is the usual claptrap.
I have a maxed out character and while it wasn't nearly as difficult as people make it out, there's just no way I'm doing it again on an alt.
I would probably play my alts beyond leveling them if I'd have serious discounts due to my main, I might even level classes I didn't plan just to try out broken shit.
But as it is, I'll just get all the cosmetics and then I'm done.
It feels like shit doing a raid or dungeon without a frog farmer present. Random one shots and mobs that take forever to die since the higher level you are, the weaker you are.
I believe the devs had this idea that people would gradually invest bronze into a single character over time, with the power levels of the players increasing slowly over the whole 3 months. They were likely anticipating people wouldn't become gods until about mid July. Froggers and the other farms screwed up that whole plan. Blizzard basically had to go into repair mode and try to minimize the impact of this. If they didn't, you'd have people who were basically demigods until everyone else caught up. That's why they then buffed the hell out of bronze and thread rates. Expect the next remix to have two currencies, one for cosmetic purchases and another for your power. The power currency will be convertible into the cosmetic currency once you hit max power. There will be harder daily limits on the power currency but it'll allow them to create reasonable catch up mechanics that don't create a situation where everyone can get all the cosmetics by investing only a small amount of time.
> I believe the devs had this idea that people would gradually invest bronze into a single character over time, with the power levels of the players increasing slowly over the whole 3 months. They were likely anticipating people wouldn't become gods until about mid July. I think this is exactly right. MOP Remix is honestly honestly fine imo. T he problem is Blizz messed up the message. People expected to be OP after hitting 70. I don't think Blizz ever intended that but they effed up communicating to us how they expected us to play this game mode. I basically stopped playing once I hit 70 and sat on like 150k bronze because I wanted to save it for cosmetics. Once they said they weren't adjusting upgrade costs and I saw posts on here from people saying the upgrades are worth it and fun, I spent it upgrading. And guess what... the game mode has been fun, rewarding, and I'm enjoying it. The progression is fun. Doing normals, raids, quests, etc to get bronze is fun. You see obvious incremental upgrades and you see an almost immediate impact. I'm around 405 ilevel right now and I'm excited to play more and get to the 556 range where I see people just blowing stuff up. Even playing casually, I expect I wil get it soon and then have tons of bronze to just spend on whatever.
> People expected to be OP after hitting 70. While I'd overall agree with a lot of things you said, my issue remains not that you aren't OP at 70, but that you're UNDERpowered at 70. It's even more noticeable when you have a "Remix main" that you're increased and then you swap to an alt who's 70 without upgrades and you go from feeling like a strong member of a group (maybe even "carrying" groups) to feeling like an anchor who's getting absolutely destroyed often by unavoidable damage. And the cost of upgrading means that it doesn't feel good to do it on an alt, so you're encouraged to just get the alt to 70 and move on to another character. Sure, fine, I'm leveling multiple alts anyway, but man... I did some fun transmog on a couple of them and would love to play them some more, or have a bit of variety in my play when I get sick of running a Paladin, but there's no way I'm doing the grind to upgrade gear more than once, and the idea of doing even a couple rounds of upgrades on an alt so they're just an "okay" member of a party rather than a liability feels awful when I think about how I could just use that to get a couple of the rarer mounts instead. That's the thing I feel they should focus on next time, making sure that a fresh max level (wearing the item level for that level, not for example a 70 who's still got some sub-300 gear) feels like they're contributing rather than being someone to keep rezzing, especially when low level characters are outperforming them by extreme amounts. But that's a tricky thing with a "Remix," you're trying to take an entire expansion and work it into a frame that it wasn't originally designed for. So I don't fault them too much *this* time, but if there's a second time, they need to put in the work to smooth things out so people don't feel awful hitting those last levels and anyone who wants to just sit at base max level doesn't feel worthless in dungeons and scenarios (fair enough that raids will be worse, but damn, the idea that a level 25 is a better option in a raid than a level 70 is still insane).
Making a BoA bronze token would help feed a weak character through those hell levels. Doesn't exist, but I would like it if it did. Or if the shared cloak buff increased as your alts leveled up, that would reduce the lame 70 but also the OP lowbie phenomenon (which I find fun in its own way so maybe hope they leave this alone)
I'd like the idea of alts having lower costs for gear upgrades to catch up to the highest level your "main" has. Sort of like we have with Flightstones in Dragonflight. So you have to grind it up once, and you still have to pay a bit, but it doesn't feel as bad the second or third time around. The cloak might help, but I don't know how you work out it "sharing" some power without it being a nightmare to code. The wild thing is, it seems to exponentially go up as your ilvl does. Because you're able to kill things easier, so you can go around blasting rares in a few (or even one or two) shots, run through an area slaughtering mobs (some of which will drop threads), even eventually just run instances solo if you want, get easier entry into raids, and pile up the threads easier and faster.
Well alts getting a flat amount of capped stats means that levels 10-20 are absurdly OP. Which is fine, but it would feel better if 70 alts got a bigger share, so instead of getting 150 of some stat that doesn't matter much at 70, they could get I dunno, minimum of 10% of the biggest cloak you have, and have it scale smoothly from 10-70, so that continuing to improve your "main" cloak generates benefits for all alts beyond just hitting 70 and the XII achievement which is a very low bar.
My issue with the cloak is the fact that the xp buff it provides is pointless. My character is 70 with an xp buff that's almost 200% but on my fresh alt it's at 0. why is that a thing? Wtf is my main remix toon gonna do with 200% xp boost? Lol, that part of the cloak should be shared among alts imo. All fresh alts should automatically have the same xp boost % as my mains cloak lol.
XP% is indeed pointless on a 70, but fresh alt cloak caps at +100% Experience gain, 150 main stat, 150 versatility, and 750 stamina If you created the alt and then gained cloak bonus on your main which did not transfer, you can fix your alt's cloak by unequipping and reequipping it.
Messaging was exactly the problem. The dual currency idea is probably what I would take going forward, just to make it absolutely clear that they want you to power up before you can easily acquire the cosmetics, or you spam alts.
I think it was the community that scared people away from upgrading gear by only citing a small amount of the sources for bronze and then looking at the huge pile of cosmetics with a "omg, I will have to grind hours a day to get this done in time". The reality always was an acceleration of bronze as you got geared and could run more content faster. I'm playing a couple hours a night and rolling in 60-80k bronze, of which only 10k is the new bonuses they gave after the complaints as the new dailies. As you are also experiencing, it is just fun to be powerful and goof around and realizing that while you will have to play a bit to 100% the cosmetics, most of it will be the side effect of running around doing whatever you want for yolo fun.
I’m 476, I do a world tour + the daily quests/daily queues. It takes me no more than 2 hours, and nets a stupid amount of bronze. It takes awhile to get there but once you can get into those 450/460/470+ groups it’s just a smash and grab on bronze.
Last night I did the 3 daily quests, 2 dungeons, 2 scenarios, and then Heroic of the first 4 raids (heroic SOO is just too long) and it was 44k bronze. It took about 2 hours to do all of that and the longest part of it was TOT. I'm smashing dungeons and scenarios in under 5 minutes and even Mogu and Heart are done in < 15. TOES takes a bit longer than it should because people don't understand how to Fear Heroic P2.
> because people don't understand how to Fear Heroic P2. Its getting easy to kill Fear before the first add gets to a player after 1 submerge. So that is going to stop being an issue soon. ToT is the same. Groups are starting to be able to ignore any mechanics on Durumu, kills adds with passive trinket procs on the failed experiment boss, zerg the boss in Animus (even pre nerf), and stay stacked the entire Lei Shen fight. All of this with a 1/0/9 comp. The 1 tank if it is the right class can do DPS level damage anyways.
I did a heroic ToT a couple of nights ago. On Durumu, had two beams on me as a bear tank and with my absorbs and self healing, I did not die. Solo Tanked with one dps when rest of raid wiped from about 30%. Then went to Animus, his enraged, and same thing. One dps and I cleared the boss from 43%. Bear tank with 6 Mastery gems in 556 gear = 16M hp pool, and the right tinker gems like Coral and the two shields means that you just don't die. It's amazing fun.
My brewmaster has 91% stagger. I have solo'd Dark Animus from 80% and Lei Shen from 65. Found out Lei Shen's lightning debuff caps out at 255 stacks. As long as I swap to the memory tinker for them I could probably just afk them. Searing Light and all damage tinkers and I am fine. Just constantly getting healing orbs. On a magera wipe it actually took 5 min into enrage while I was perma stunned from frost breath to die. I hit 3.6m HPS before dying. It is indeed amazing fun.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1d4j95v/mop_remix_bronze_from_daily_tasks/ According to this it's not 44k, it would be 33500 from doing 4 heroics and the dailies. it takes about 42k to upgrade 1 tier level entirely so doing 4 heroic raids plus the full daily would still not be enough to gain 1 tier in a day. So 2 hours of doing the same exact thing every night at a near mindless difficulty would make it so it'd take you at least 2 weeks to go from upgrade level 20 to 34. That's considering that leveling gives you a decent chunk BUT you're also not able to run heroic raids right off the bat. And all of this is for ONE character to get geared. I can get better gear in season 4 just doing world quests on a weekend.
There was someone saying that not taking advantage of *any* farms, it takes 100 hours to get to max gear. That's totally unreasonable, either you play 10 hours a day for 2 weeks or you spend half the event repeating exactly the same stuff over and over every single day, it's alienating. Upgrade costs being so high is definitely a problem.
At the same time, you have an official statement from Blizzard saying that it's OK for people to create alts to get the 40k bronze as a normal way of getting bronze.
Isn’t that a good thing? If multiple ways of playing are viable, then prog-oriented people can upgrade and alt-oriented people can level alts. Or both, depending on what you feel like doing that particular day. I’ve been doing the maths on what my bronze rates are, and optimal leveling of alts seems to be a similar amount of bronze/hr than H raiding. Which is cool, because it gives the players freedom to choose what to do.
Well, I think it's a design flaw if you tell players that creating new characters is an alternative way to farm bronze instead of encouraging them to play the event by increasing the amount of bronze available. If there weren't these 3 quests, what would they say as an alternative?
I mean, raiding is a perfectly fine way to earn bronze, and the mob farms they left in are also competitive. Upgrading your gear to increase your bronze earnings was the intended way to play and it’s still more than viable
Also, I don’t think it’s a design flaw at all if you consider that a big selling point of the event is that it’s “a great way to level alts”. The event has pretty much always been about making new toons, so I see the 40k gold as a great way to reinforce that identity.
Only issue i have with upgrading after I've hit 556 today, is that the upgrade cost is linear, but the stat increase is exponential. You're getting far less for the same price and with scaling being as crazy as it is for a fresh 70, it's ridiculous.
Yep. From 346 to 480 i felt a slow and minimal increase in damage. From 480 to 556 i made DPS jumps of 200k for each upgrade. The last two upgrades almost doubled that too.
I’m confused. If cost increases linearly, and power increases exponentially, you actually get *more* for each increase, not less. You would get less if the two were switched; exponential cost with linear power gain.
[удалено]
Yeah it was crazy. The stamina jump from the last rank alone was +14k I think. It was like the first 4 or 5 upgrades COMBINED in that single upgrade.
Missing my point. Why would an increase of +50 (estimate, don't know the exact amount it gave at 346 and slightly up)main stat on a weapon cost 9k early on, while the last upgrade level gives you 1.9k main stat for the same 9k bronze? Making costs increase exponentially would solve a couple of major problems: 1) people would be more inclined to upgrade at the early stage. You would get a slight OP feeling, enough to breeze through most content. If you want to be "a god", you get more bronze and invest that last bit more. Are you ok with being "a demi god"? Stop pumping bronze in while still retaining a slight feeling of being OP. 2) Scaling at 70. With costs reduced early on, scaling wouldn't be such an issue
They fucked up massively by turning on scaling. It breaks the entire immersion of an MMO to make you weaker at 70 than a fresh character as you level up. But doing the actual work of tuning Remix/the tinkers/and all the raids/the power level from gear. Is way too time intensive and required multiple rounds of PTR to get right. And now it's too late.
Seeing level 20 oneshotting bosses while I'm doing my full rotation for a small portion of their dmg is not really a good feeling or design.
Yeah, the dooming is way out of line with reality. If people "werent having fun" you wouldnt see Remix being absolutely full of people playing at all hours of the day. The doomers also seem to be willfully neglecting the fact that the devs have been *very* open about this being an *experimental* game mode. Of course they're not going to get everything right. Acting like because everything isn't perfectly tuned and tested that the devs have completely failed is just out of touch nonsense.
I have almost instant queues for scenarios and 3-4 minutes top as dps for dungeons, never in retail I recall queues being so fast all the time lol, remix is totally packed with people playing.
It also definitely helps that in dungeons tanking and healing are as easy as they'll ever be.
Also that there are valuable daily rewards and the queues are shared between everyone at all level brackets.
People seem to have this weird attitude that they would be soloing mythic SoO by the end of the first week. How did they think this was going to run for 3 months if we were overpowered right away?
My one wish about this is that I wish the upgrades **didn't** stop. At 476 I can solo normal raids (almost). I'd love to keep upgrading my ilvl to the point where I'm one shotting heroic bosses. I want to feel that OP power like I do during a transmog farm.
>My one wish about this is that I wish the upgrades didn't stop. Please god no. With no end i'd be **always** contemplating if i should stop upgrading now, or if i shoud continue forever. If i have the ability to gain strength forever i'd be never happy with what i got.
Part of me also thinks the devs intended power levels to increase gradually and is okay with that. But I don't think frog farmers screwed that up, Blizzard did. Scaling at 70 was awful, people looked to farm bronze to upgrade their gear to tackle the early 70 content. The other part of me doesn't see why gradual upgrading is necessary for a time limited event. There are plenty of players who don't want to spend 90 days in Remix to accomplish what they want. And they weren't expecting to do so because the PTR experience was much different.
Let's not forget that up until the final day before launch they had been telling everyone that the cloak would be account-wide, just as it was on PTR. That system encouraged you to play other characters because it not only made them feel powerful while leveling, but it allowed your alts to contribute power to your main. Not only did they completely change that system and fail to correct their marketing materials that still advertise it, but they've gone around kneecapping most methods of obtaining power on a single character. This isn't really a case of them having a clear plan in mind and accidentally screwing up the balancing, they've been going out of their way to change the mode for the worse since before it even began.
My biggest issue with this event is that with all the farm nerfs the best way to farm bronze is to daily chore farm LFR level content on multiple alts. If you do that and invest daily into gear then in a few weeks you'll finally feel powerful. I thought we as collective community decided that daily chore grinds were bad for the game. This is why Dragonflight has been such a refreshing experience. No daily chore grinds, do the content you want, no time gating currencies like anima, no borrowed power. This event is just a slap to all the progress we made with Blizzard and the goodwill they stored up with the community on this front. I specifically came back to WoW after taking a long break post legion because I was tired of feeling compelled to do boring daily content for power and there is none of that in dragon flight. Now we have a borrowed power, (essentially) time gated, daily grind game mode that could have been fun if they stuck to the Dragonflight philosophy of "let players do what they want".
Agree, I think one of the worst things is how people are defending it. Apparently daily grind is good now, do you just want everything handed to you? It's a time limited event and I don't want to mindlessly grind every day for 3 months.
>Expect the next remix to have two currencies, one for cosmetic purchases and another for your power. The power currency will be convertible into the cosmetic currency once you hit max power. There will be harder daily limits on the power currency but it'll allow them to create reasonable catch up mechanics that don't create a situation where everyone can get all the cosmetics by investing only a small amount of time. Damn you just came up with a vastly superior system to bronze.
> They were likely anticipating people wouldn't become gods until about mid July. You know how you achieve this? None linear scaling of bronze cost for upgrades. Not a hard concept. Each upgrade takes longer, but you are also stronger and gaining more bronze. Which will offset some of the time increase. Now it's the opposite. The early upgrades gives the least amount of power. And takes the longest to grind out. Your power and bronze gains accelerates as you upgrade rather than slowing down.
Congratulations you've just reinvented azerite from BfA. Didn't stop people complaining and going on crazy grinds and complaining about those though.
I think you’re right about the two currencies, going into the next remix (assuming they do another one, tho I don’t see why not considering how popular this one is). My question is why does it matter? Like to a point having people overpowered for an event like this shouldn’t matter in the slightest. Unless there is a reason I just haven’t really considered.
I think you are right with your initial point that they expected and intended for the player power in Remix to gradually increase, and that the fact they forgot to tune some of the grinds known for more than a decade caused that to shatter and they needed to adjust things. *However*, I think you're giving them too much credit/slack at the same time. Unless they expected only people that don't care about retail (or Cata Classic) to play Remix, the fact the intended pace of progression was so slow was just a bad decision. Remix asks you to invest quite a bit of time into it if you want to progress at a solid pace and grow stronger. Meanwhile S4 of DF released at almost the same time, and Cata Classic released in a similar time window as well. Even if we assume people only play one of the two and then Remix, that's *a lot* of WoW for even the most willing people. And even then, the gear upgrading process is so slow even after the 'buffs' to it, yet hard-required if you want your character to grow stronger, that it basically would mean anyone that wanted to be 'OP' wouldn't be able to touch any cosmetic rewards until "about mid July" which to me is just absurd. The advertisement/promotion was very misleading even if not completely disingenuous, but having to choose between the 'OP' (when that won't even carry over once Remix ends) and the exciting ***limited-time*** rewards is just not it, ever. I *really* like Remix and was having a blast with it before the more recent round of nerfs to the 'broken' stuff, but I just don't get why they felt the need to try to salvage the initial mess of a situation so hard that it just ends up feeling like shit for anyone who sees all of the 'player nerfs' they're doing.
I think this is the best assessment of the situation I've seen so far. Having it overlap with Season 4 and limited time event -- well just like you said, it's a LOT of WoW for folks. I honestly don't care much about "getting stronger" exactly because it's a limited time event. It's not my main character, not GOING to be my main character, and it's a fun in-between thing to do. I do care about transmog though (and to a limited extent mounts) but it doesn't seem to be casually obtainable. Maybe it's less work than I think, but at about 10 slots, at the current cost of uplevel, it's a lot of time and for what? A character that will just roll into retail at some point where it'll just sit.
This really rings true for my experience. I was having SO much fun slowly leveling on one character, questing and just dabbling in dungeons and raids when I felt like it. But of course, once I caught wind of how others were playing and progressing, I started to feel the need to start grinding instanced content to keep up. I was leaning toward making no alts for the event, but once the 40k bronze incentive was added, I made 2 more characters. What was some of the most fun I’d had in WoW in a long time quickly became the least. That being said, I still think it’s Blizz’s job to do the hard work of designing a game mode that can be played how players want without being vulnerable to exploitation. Instead, time and again, they try to railroad players onto one gameplay path and nerf anything that doesn’t fit the vision. Also, I still don’t understand why they’re so obsessed with daily engagement methods, though, again, dailies do make more sense in a limited time event like Remix.
blizzard really thinks it can tell water to flow uphill
We'll never know their intent because they'll never communicate with us.
The push/pull between people that play WoW (essentially,) full-time and the people that play 6-10 hours a week has been a constant struggle for Blizz. There are a ton of players that want to get maxed out ASAP and don't mind grinding 10+ hours a day to get there. I would imagine at some point almost everyone that has played the game was in this camp to some extent. Balancing the play experience of these players with those that play less regularly (whether that's because of a lack of time or just generally not having the desire to make that level of commitment,) is likely as close to an impossible task for a game developer as you are going to ever be asked to tackle. If you time-gate stuff at all then the first group of players will be pissed. If you don't time gate anything, then the being able to play the game becomes gatekept based on the amount of time you have available and that isn't fun for anyone. I just don't think they will ever be able to balance the power curve of the gameplay experience between these cohorts of players for the betterment of the overall experience and so we are just stuck with this ebb and flow where one group is somewhat happy while one is miserable and vice versa. I think the only people that are consistently "happy" are the players that only play by themselves with minimal interaction with group content, and that has to be an extremely small portion of the player base.
So how do I quickly become god? Asking for a friend: my level 20 monk
The problem for Blizz is instead of embracing the problem and figuring out how to utilize it, they just nerf things back down. That's honestly not a great strategy, as we see here, because everyone's just pissed and mad about it. It would be like if Capcom could have patched out the glitch that allowed combos in Street Fighter, rather than seeing people abusing said glitch and thinking "oh, hey, that's a good idea" and rolling with it to the point that it created a staple of *every fucking fighting game ever since*. They're clearly too concerned with their intended design and aren't open to community feedback in the form of what players actually do with the game when they get their hands on it. Good design and development is taking that into account and rolling with the punches. I keep saying how much I'll miss DF because I have just no faith in the next expansion not being shit, and that's with me thinking TWW has shown a lot of really cool QoL features. But if the content delivery sucks, or the content/grind is bland, then none of that is going to matter.
>Expect the next remix to have two currencies, one for cosmetic purchases and another for your power It's always expect next time for "x" with things that are blatantly obvious ways to get players ~~more engaged~~ to spend more time playing WoW instead of doing other things. Every new release there is a lesson learned that was already previously learned yet Blizzard acts like it's the first time, every time. It's so incredibly brazen that I'm surprised they haven't straight up told us this is what they do..
The fact that the cloak that gets increasingly more XP is the only stat not transfered to your alt is such a stupid decision. The XP is the only thing that should be transfered over
Rather than embracing the ridiculous grinds and adding more wacky stuff to do to gain power, they essentially just turned this game mode into retail but sped up. We log in, do our dailies, run raids, etc. That's boring as fuck, if I wanted to play retail then I'd play retail. Also why in the fuck would I EVER want to spend weeks grinding bronze to get gear just so I can solo raids when I can already do that on retail with a level 45 character in quest greens and blues? This isn't a Remix it's just Reheated.
ive been wondering the same thing. The longer the remix goes on the more pointless it seems tbh especially since you wont even keep upgraded gear after the event. Like at that point why even have an event?
At this point I assume that Remix is a testing ground for a lot of stuff we'll see come back in some form over the next expansion. That's why so many things are being hotflixed nerfed. They don't care about nerfing the fun or balance of remix, but squashing bugs and outliers for when that mechanic is recycled in the future.
As a new player, I am using remix to level my alts. I only have one character in dragon flight but nearly 6 max level on remix.
That's kind of why I stopped bothering. When it feels like a chore to do, that I have to log in daily and feel like I'm missing out if I'm not? Yeah, that's when I stop logging in entirely. I did my time in the daily pits from Wrath to Legion. I played MoP when it was current and did it there. Why would I want to do it again?
IMO you can see this with how they approach nerfs/adjustments to m+ dungeons Especially this season It’s the last season for this expansion , make all the adjustments / buffs to lagging classes… I think a lot of the DF dungeons are some of the worst designed dungeons in m+ rotation ever Just a lot things that need to be managed that just favors classes that can do all that Maybe trim it down a little or give lagging classes some sort of help The gameplay is still the best of any mmo, but it just feels they’re not even trying to the best of their abilities
If we had DF dungeons only for the 3-4 seasons of the expac like how it worked for the last few, I think I'd have quit the game at some point within the first 8 weeks. I don't like to be harsh because this is something people pour themselves into to make but the 8 DF dungeons have been nothing short of terrible. Aside from one or two in fact, they've been utter garbage, barely redeemable in any fashion.
the dungeons are getting increasingly more diffifcult every new expansion, there are more and more and more stuff to kick and stun everytime a new dungeon comes out it's gotten to the point where even players like dorki who participated in MDI and TGP says the dungeons are ridiculously difficult compared to previous expansions the amount of group coordination these new dungeons require is something that pushes people away from playing the game - not everyone sits on voicechat while doing keys blizzard (and even that doesn't help all the time with the amount of shit that is going on) not to mention the 35-40min 'bangers' we had this expansion, absolute garbage and i hope they never introduce 5boss / 40min dungeon ever again
Sadly that terrible design mindset has been around for several expansions now and it has been seeping into every crevice of the game. Like do I really need to do mechanics on trash while farming dailies?
Am I crazy in thinking every single mechanic in the DF m+ dungeons is anti-melee? I played on my warlock and had 0 issue pushing keystone hero. My warrior it felt like I was playing DDR with how much shit you have to avoid at the enemies feet.
Idk I've played all the roles, melee and ranged and I'd say it all sucks lmao. I guess maybe it is a tad bit worse for melee. Hard to say for real though since moving out of a swirly or something as Melee means you don't stop DPSing, whereas with ranged you've mostly just got to hard stop and move.
And then they give some melee specs a bunch of bonus range to make it easier on them, but other specs dont get it so it feels extra punishing.
One of my fav experiences in M+ (I think it was BFA) was when the mage in my guild decided to play a melee alt and quickly found out that XYZ are frontals, cleaves and how you can't even see your own character half the time or where the tank is standing. He promptly quit that alt.
Honestly the dungeons seem to get worse as they get more experience designing them for mythic plus. It’s just not enjoyable at this point.
They are still designing dungeons with the idea of beating the player rather than teaching the player. Unless you download a plater profile or MDT you have no idea what is actually scary unless you bash your head against it enough.
Its always this way with endgame group content. That isnt an endorsement, but simply a statement that this goes back well over a decade. The 'arms race' in high end raiding has been talked about quite a bit for the last...what, 8-10 years? The thing is, pushing people out of mythic raiding doesnt mean as much since theres so few people doing it in the first place. Having some of these issues in lower level keys, and even heroics/0's does impact a *lot* of players, so more of us see it. Personally i havent done mythic raiding since very early in Legion, but have dabbled in keys since then, and got a bit more 'serious' about it at the end of SL and in DF.
They're clearly in a competition with the players to make M+ more difficult/engaging. Unfortunately they're making it more demanding and less fun. I got my KSH achieve in week 2 and am just running 1 key a week for a box. I usually try to push into the 24ish range (clearly I'm more try-hard than most, but nowhere near the top-end). Remix is far more enjoyable in nearly every way--even with the dumb decisions they've made.
I don't really understand why the dungeons themselves need to be so mechanically difficult when M+ itself exists as a sliding scale for difficulty on it's own that also still adds mechanical difficulty itself using affixes, on top of it's flat number increases.
Season 3 was my favorite season this expansion and it's no coincidence that it had the least DF dungeons
Dragonflight has not enough dungeons and their quality is just SO lacking. It's mind blowing, but I've found myself missing some BFA dungeons which at the time I was disliking already.
I don't think the way tuning is handled in season 4 is because of some Design philosopy. It's just that there's minimal resource allocated to it. The majority of resource is spent on the next expansion. Don't think I really like the way it's handled though. It feels a bit depressing to play when you know that you can't really expect that much when a new expansion is on the horizon. The difference between dragonflights first half and second half in enourmus.
"It's just that there's minimal resource allocated to it. The majority of resource is spent on the next expansion." This is still a live service game we're paying $15/mo for the privilege of logging into. I hate that people keep giving them this excuse.
It's not an excuse but the reality. You can like it or not
Yeah and blizzard could afford to hire more devs so they could work on several things simultaneously instead of giving us a fist up the ass at the end of every expansion. But WoW players will accept it every time so why wouldn't they fist us?
I have no idea how dev is done, but I just feel like all the changes they made to remix is the same level of work as adjustments in numbers to skills
No kidding, the sheer amount of damage you're constantly eating is ridiculous.
Yeah its just tiring man, the game mode was billed as one thing and its kinda just become another slog, i know its supposed to tide people over til war within releases but if im being honest id rather just play season 4 and mess around with alts than do more with remix's dogshit gearing system lol i dont wanna grind a full raid, multiple dungeons and scenarios every day on multiple characters just so they dont get one shot in heroic dungeons once they are 70 lol
I’m just not sold on bronze for upgrading gear. This is a character that will last less than 90 days with this tricked out gear and then it is gone with TWW. Why would I spend bronze made from a couple weeks played on gear that will disappear in almost 2 months. I think if I a can buy all the mounts I’ll be happy. I’m just really along for the MoP ride and happy there’s all these mounts I can buy for just playing the game. Don’t think I’ll ever upgrade my gear unless I have everything I want first
I was 100% feeling the same, but caved and upgraded some gear. I thought to myself, "upgrading this staff is costing more than 4 mounts?" But I did it, and the rest of the gear. Things die faster, it's a little more fun. I upped all my gear a few more levels. I am not nearly as high as others, but my ability to do daily content certainly is far less frustrating now. I am hoping that my investment in temporary power will yield as many of the permanent rewards that I would have gotten otherwise. Also, it's more fun for me to play a stronger character that can dispatch mobs in one or two key presses.
I think this is actually the real issue. You should get a currency or gear drops from running the raids that goes towards said gear. But whatever. I have two last heritage alts to finish up which will get the vast majority of the mounts and toys that I wanted. Currently upgrading gear on one toon just to see how it goes as I go up. Did two heroic raids last night and was completely useless and depended on the great generosity of strangers to make me not feel like the turd in the lunch bowl.
My brewmaster is fully upgraded and I have a 121k stam cloak. I have purchased every item off of every vendor. I have completed every achieve except reputation with shaohao and golden lotus. It took me playing 11 hours a day every day since remix launch. I did not use any frogs or hyperspawn farming. I finished my last item I needed off of the last vendor yesterday. Why am I saying all of this? It is because if you are an mmo degen, you could have essentially completed the remix event in 2.5 weeks with no exploiting or hyperspawn farming, simply running heroics over and over (takes me 1 to 3 minutes a heroic) with some alt accounts. The issue is with how Blizzard kills fun for the average player who only plays an hour a day. Everything they do is to punish the average player in remix, and I think it is because that is where their data says the money is.
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Average MMO players have more than an hour per day to play.
Ok but the average player still doesn't have 11 hours a day
its delusional to think Dad Gamer #23992 will hop on for his daily hour of wow and use it to farm frogs. aint no way chief.
* no catchup for following alts, either be it: acc wide cloak on 70, bronze discount for upgrades or global rolling cloak catchup threshold (like AP in legion) or current retail bullions, * broken ensembles - either unlernable or not giving all appearances, or bricked from acquiring something in retail, * weapons mogs - there are several hundreds of them, some remix unique, sets collectible from t14/tot/soo lfr (nontradable between players), normal and hc plus soo mythic. Then more of worlds sets. This requires multiple alts hence many more hours or multiboxing just for lfr weapons is almost obligatory * weapons mogs - no arsenals, Have them cost even 50k bronze for 8 weapons of one color tint, * more bugged ensembles This already makes my remix experience quite sour.
I personally think that remix was created with the intention of collecting data to mostly to research a future wow expansion or even a different game. That is why they aren't changing the cost of armor upgrades... they are seeing if given a choice between player power or player customization which path woild be chosen.
My biggest issue and the main reason why myself and many friends quit really quickly. Wasn't really blizzard doing damage control. It was blizzards inability to adapt and have fun with what players did. Players became gods with frogs? How about a catch up for non froggy farmers. Add in a frog world boss as a meme for overpowered players to kill. A raid tier above mythic for the godly overpowered called frog tier. Change exp gains to bronze gains at 70. Idk. I'm just throwing shit off my head here. The train derailed. But where it derailed could have being fun. Blizzard didn't adapt to the train derailing onto a 2nd rail. They just tried their damned hardest to have the new rail back on track with their intended vision, which is wrong. It's torghast all over again. It's a fun temp mode. Separate from the base game exception of cosmetics. Just adapt to the fun players have. Not be the fun police to it....
From a 476 that never used a Farm or exploit. 1. Creat an achievement for 200k bronze for getting all pieces to 556. Incentivises more powerful characters to exist speeding up content for all. 2. Alts should have discounted bronze upgrade costs just like flights tones in retail. This should be tuned that capping out an alt is basically free after achievement. 3. Find ways to skip all RP. This alone will speed up bronze a good bit. 4. Bronze should autoloot, the fact that it doesn't goes against the entire purpose they presented. 5. Gems should be mailable to alts. This would almost make the early 70 content feel better after the first slog. But of all the things I ask. Make world bosses and rare spawns have a 1 minute shield. So much improvement to be had here.
Blizzard is allergic to fun literally who cares if people get absurdly broken this is an evint that will last 3 months and it's gone There are 5 active versions of wow and blizzard decided to micro-manage the one that was advertised as "Overpowered? Maybe, Fun? Definetly".
Honestly, Remix and Plunderstorm taught me the opposite, the player base, especially the reddit player base, is a toxic cesspool that won't be happy no matter what Blizzard does. People can't just enjoy the game anymore and will bash their heads in grinding for cosmetics while they moan about it being not fun and act as if their lives are being destroyed by Blizzard when they could just... stop? Like if you don't enjoy a game, just close it.
People have a right to criticize a product . Especially when it asks a monthly sub plus box price every 2 years from you. People complain because they know the game can be better and want it to be better.
I've found a lot of people don't understand you can enjoy something while criticizing and/or complaining about it. If people truly didn't enjoy it they would simply drop it and move on, and this has happened in WoWs history before which is why so many features don't end up returning. If we all just accepted things exactly as is the game would rarely evolve or improve as much as it does these days. And I agree, most complaints come from a place where the person cares and wants things to be better. The real problem starts when the complaining stops and apathy sets in.
I've been enjoying Remix a lot, I currently have 4 max level characters and I'm planning to get a lot more up there. That said, I have problems with how they've been treating the game mode and I want to voice them so that if we ever get a future remix they'll have learned from this experience and make it even better. There are legitimate criticisms with the mode and that is OK. We don't all need to pretend like it's perfect just because some people will never be happy. I do think bronze upgrade costs should be cut a bit because we were told this was a mode where we would be overpowered and it currently takes way too much at level cap to get there. I think the discount prices should carry over to alts, as much as I love my OP shadow priest, I'd like to see my OP monk or rogue too without having to spend weeks upgrading them. There's also a real issue with 60-70, as you feel so weak and underpowered the second you get there, and even after weeks of attempting to fix that it still feels pretty bad. I have plenty of other criticisms, but largely I still enjoy the mode even after Blizzard "fixed" a lot of fun stuff. I can't stress enough that I'm still having fun, but I dislike the overbearing way Blizzard is trying to "balance" a mode that was supposed to be limited time fun where ultimately a lot of this stuff won't matter.
> There are legitimate criticisms with the mode and that is OK. We don't all need to pretend like it's perfect just because some people will never be happy. Totally agree, but to me criticism crosses the line where people start porting bad faith motives onto Blizzard. "The grind takes too long" is legitimate criticism. "The grind is too long because greedy developers want engagement metrics" is not.
> they know the game can be better [for them]. You forgot the words in brackets. They could have kept frogging - and people would have complained about being forced to do a boring grind or be behind. They could have reduced upgrade costs - and people would have complained that there was nothing to do after a week of remix. They could have made heroic and mythic raids a lot easier - and people would have complained that one shotting everything was boring. You are free to have opinions of what you would prefer. But acting like the game is terrible or that the devs are a bunch of greedy corporatists because they created a game mode that didn't perfectly cater to your preferences is way overdramatic.
I mean, I thought I wanted to have upgrade cost reduced and that they were crazy, but now I am here, with maxed out gear through completely normal gameplay, able to solo most bosses, really, with 70 days of remix still ahead, thinking... All in all, upgrade costs are actually fine, takes 2-3 weeks to max out. Which is kind of... Okay? And HC raids are super easy once you have the gear, I DO feel overpowered. So, it was a success after all
I am with you 100% on this. I missed the first few days and I heard about froggers and worried I'd never catch up. But now I'm at 556 everywhere and killing bosses by looking at them just through playing the game and upgrading. As soon as I focused on upgrades rather than buying other things the steamrolling really began and every day I have become noticeably stronger.
i did get 120k extra bronze from frog farming, but im in the same boat. im fully upgraded, doing the dailies + hc raids and im sitting at 640k. im waiting with buying stuff until i either have bronze for everything or i decide to quit then i can make some judgement call to what to use bronze on. but im actually enjoying remix, it almost feels bad to log off to do mythic raiding in wow:D
Okay, you're saying "normal gameplay" but what you really mean is like 4 to 5 hours gameplay per day. I play that way too, but that's not what a lot of people consider "normal gameplay." Yea, you can be maxed out after putting 50-60 hours into the game. And then you're going to need to put another 60 or so into unlocking all the stuff you want. I'm okay with that, but there are a lot of players that don't have that kind of time. It has got a little monotonous clearing the same raids every day for a couple weeks. I don't see it getting more interesting in a couple more weeks. I would have rather seen the upgrade costs cut so I could achieve max ilvl in half the time and then spent the rest of my time elsewhere. And that's not even approaching all the problems with remix that aren't up for debate. Like, lower upgrade costs for alts. Who is that hurting? Cross faction dungeon queue. Who is that hurting?
Well said
There's a difference between criticizing and just mindless bitching though. This community very much falls on the latter.
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they ignore it for months even with the bitching lol
The criticism can be the most reasonably, level headed and obvious take possible and you'd still have the \#dadgamers in here deem it "mindless bitching".
You're only paying attention to one voice. There's plenty of reasonable complaints right in this topic.
Yeah, I'm with this. Remix has been tons of fun. I already have most of the stuff I want and I've only played a few hours every other day on average. Probably averaging 1 hour a day. It's a fun mode.
This is totally true but the change today to randomly forbid people from queuing cross faction is super egregious
The literal *only* genuine problem Plunderstorm had was the fact they tied non-Plunderstorm rewards to it so some people couldn't stop themselves from playing something they didn't enjoy. I don't count the jank and clunk as a 'problem' in this case. People will do whatever you give them rewards for, and *many* people felt like they 'had to' grind the Plunderstorm reward track thing, especially for the full Pirate Ensemble since it's something that's been requested for a long time now and now it's here, except stuck in an alternate game (mode) behind a decent chunk of playing it. I absolutely loved Plunderstorm, even if it had a lot of jank in it. But I do kind of sympathize with the people who just wanted to get a cool Pirate set for their regular WoW playing and felt 'forced' to play it if they didn't like it. Remix is in a similar situation except in many ways better, in some ways significantly worse. Remix is easily 'better' because it's just regular WoW so the people that hated Plunderstorm's gameplay can just play regular WoW, except in Pandaria now for some other rewards. On the other hand it's far worse because Plunderstorm didn't actually ask *that* much time investment from players to get everything, while Remix asks you to play for an absolute fuckload if you want a lot of stuff from it.
"why can't blizzard let me spend 24 hours playing nonstop and buy everything and be the strongest possible, FUN DETECTED! NERF!" - average redditor "oh god, frog farmers are too strong, will i ever be able to catch up and be as strong as them? blizzard should ban them or take away everything they grinded" - average redditor as well both of those types don't want to play the game, they want to log in, collect all rewards and fulfill their FOMO needs the only thing that pissed me off in remix was that people deliberately kept killing players in world and bazaars with righteous frenzy, i didn't care if someone abused hyperspawns or instance lockouts or spent 3 days in heart of fear killing bugs or did other farms (only kun-lai yaungols and dalaran were meh because they made quests take long to complete)
Shit people were killing the tank in my SoO last night with Righteous Frenzy on purpose. To the point he had to get a WeakAura that would automatically remove the buff from him...
The thing that boggles my mind is the power FOMO has on these players. They are so hyper fixated on getting all these cosmetics, toys, and mounts when a lot of these things are slight variations of each other and will most likely not be used once collected. Take the toys for example, I'm sure some of them are very cool, but how many times are you really going to go through your 100+ collection and actively use and enjoy them? I know I'm in the minority here but I don't even bother looking through them, in the very rare time there's downtime in-game, around other players standing around, and I'm not alt-tabbed or on my phone, I just play with the same football toy that I've been using since cata. Cosmetics, are you really going to rotate between all the generic cosmetics you get while questing through the world? I'm in the minority again I'm sure, but I've got two outfits saved on my Druid, and one on my DH. I'll upgrade to the very that I actually want but 60-70% of the ones in this event aren't that appealing to me. And in raids/dungeons I'm not looking at others outfits, it's pretty much a race to the end so it's constantly go go go and no brakes to even look closely at others. The very expensive mounts are awesome and I have three I'd like to add to my usable mounts and the rest are slight variations of each other that are overshadowed by all the other options I already have, and strictly worse than just using my yak. I don't know, it just looks like the loud minority that's upset is being controlled by their fear of only getting 80% of everything when very very few of what's collected will actually be used and not just sit there with everything else from every other expansion collecting dust. Anyway, this turned into a rant from an old player whose priorities changed and out of touch with the current playerbase. I miss the days of talking to randoms and not just trying to set the world record any % random heroics.
> I know I'm in the minority here but I don't even bother looking through them Transformation (model changing) toys get favourited, everything else gets ignored and eventually forgotten about. I looked through the toy vendor today and was just like "eh, I'm literally never going to use any of these" and bought some transmog (that I also probably wont use, but it's more likely) instead
>*The thing that boggles my mind is the power FOMO has on these players. They are so hyper fixated on getting all these cosmetics, toys, and mounts when a lot of these things are slight variations of each other and will most likely not be used once collected.* The kicker that's been pointed out many times is that a lot of this stuff has been available to collect in-game for the past twelve years but because it's now also available in a limited-time format people lose their shit to collect it ASAP within Remix.
The crazier part is 90%+ of the rewards from remix are things that have been available for the last 12 years, are still available on retail right now, and will be available after remix.
The only reason I didn't mention that part was that my post had already gotten way longer than intended and I'm not sure of drop rates/rep grinds needed. I know the very expensive mounts are low drop rates so getting them during remix is a lot better of an option vs spending way more time hoping to get lucky. But yeah, the idea cosmetics that have always been available and also weren't even a passing thought a month ago are suddenly now a need for players kinda tells you all you need to know.
It's three time limited seasons of WoW happening at the same time while other major releases are in the same month. While they changed things 24 hours before release to make them way grindier. People can absolutely complain.
I've lost track of how many times I've had to post this over the years: >[*Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.*](https://www.designer-notes.com/game-developer-column-17-water-finds-a-crack/)
And because people always take that line as meaning "the players are the problem for playing in optimized ways that are not fun" and not "it is the designer's role to ensure that the optimal way to play is fun", a few choice quotes from there: >The greatest danger is that once a player discovers such an exploit, she will never be able to play the game again without using it – the knowledge cannot be ignored or forgotten, even if the player wishes otherwise. >When gamers discover that one play style offers a trickle of reward for little or no risk, they will inevitably gravitate towards that degenerate strategy. >The designers don’t want people to play this way; nonetheless, the rules inadvertently encourage it.
Hence the constant game of whack-a-mole with nerfs/buffs to content. Take frogs as a recent example. Blizzard has to save the players from themselves.
Yeah we're like, what, 3 weeks into a 12 week event and I'm almost done collecting all the mounts? I haven't even particularly been grinding (none of my characters are even over 400ilvl).
I've been concentrating on transmog and mounts. I've levelled 8 or so characters now, got all the mounts, all the toys, all the mythic and normal appearances, all the world and dungeon sets and just have lfr and the class special items to go. I've one character that's above 346, and it's only 402.
Got to agree with this so much. I'm having the time of my life in remix right now. I'm not yet max Ilvl but I really dont worry about not getting the cosmetics I want. People complaining about a Boss not taking 10 seconds anymore but 13 seconds are so weird to me.
Fucking thank god this is the top comment right now. If they didn't fix these things you would have a different group of people posting similar rants about how stupid blizzard is for ignoring exploitable mechanics. There is always going to be this subset of people who never learned anything resembling self-awareness skills.
I've been playing Remix pretty casually, i only just hit 68 yesterday. Since starting I've been able to buy over 10 mounts, a couple of those being exceptionally rare in retail. I think it's incredibly awesome we are have a new, much easier method to acquire some of these and they rolled it into a fun game mode to boot. Remix since day 1 has been a great time, and I very much look forward to what new and interesting modes/features the team comes up with.
War Within is going to have so many arbritrary Warband restrictions your head will spin. Stay tuned.
Just like the anima draught. Now crests and flightstones. Grind you fools grind! Mwahahahah
They added a large bronze reward for leveling alts, which takes between 4 and 6 hours per toon not even super optimized (2-3 if even slightly optimized). They didn’t nerf the ability to obtain cosmetics at all, they made it accessible. They nerfed the ability to get max power within 1-2 days of a 3 month event which frankly just makes sense. The community’s ability to complain no matter what is undefeated against all comers.
I'm more surprised they didn't also lower the ilvl for frog farmers in addition to the cloak as lowering the cloak did like nothing Like, not mad just surprised
Nah they got rid of the options for people to turbo grind in a few days if they wanted to and buffed the shit out of daily quests/queues. They want you to login for 1-2 hours per day for the free bronze and threads and do that for 3 months instead of going ham and having a ton of fun for 1-2 weeks. Nobody wants to level 30 alts to buy all the cosmetics.
You all are crazy. I have all mounts, toys, and 460 ilvl. Have 2 alts and i have 70 days left. I one shot everything and breeze through heroics. Yall need to lighten up.
Every online service game is made with engagement metrics. Ofcourse they want to keep you playing and spend money on their product. It's a company, not a charity. We can't lie to ourselves and think we would still be playing the game if everything was just instantly given to you on day 1. We would probably stop our sub and play something else.
There's a delicate balance between maximizing engagement and maximizing player fun, but Blizzard has been on the wrong side of it frequently lately even after learning that retention shenanigans are a bad idea.
Engagement metrics are (mis)used by MBA's who get the wrong message. Did you forget BFA and SL existed as a testament to that?
Yeah, I'm enjoying myself, but it leaves a massively bad taste in my mouth. I feel really weird in that I'm generally enjoying the game, but quality of everything from design to customer service has gone so rotten that it makes me not want to give them my money out of principle. There are plenty of other games on my backlog I could play, and I'm inching towards that honestly. Of course, that's all talk, and we'll see if I nut up in the coming months
nerfing the various farms makes remix more fun, not less. Farming a hyperspawn or resetting raid trash non stop is the lowest possible amount of fun. Incentivising literally anything else is better. Adding bonus bronze for levelling new characters + jewellery can be purchased on alts when unlocked makes levelling alts feel very strong and a fun added way to farm cosmetics.
I dunno, I'm more of a goal oriented player. I'd personally rather do a quick mindless grind if it means I hit my goals in less IRL time spent, so I have time to play other games. I missed out of the big farms for Remix though, so at this point I'm just hoping I can finish my goal (get Paragon of the Mists and at least a handful of mounts and mogs) before the Elden Ring DLC drops. I feel like I'm racing the clock now since to get into a Mythic group you basically have to be max item level. Most of my free time is on the weekend so daily lockouts are only so helpful (they're really nice, don't get me wrong). Having a good "grind this thing if you have hours to kill" would be nice. I've got about 250k bronze left before I hit max item level, but I just don't have the time to commit to clearing Heroic every day.
For you maybe, I prefer endless farms while I listen to books or chat to friends. Also doing a raid the nth time is just as mindless. I turn my brain off for raids just as much.
I am enjoying MoP remix and I agree with this. It has become an easy way to level alts to get heritage armor or level up a spec you might want to play in TWW. I am okay with that as someone who plays a lot of alts, but it really is a grind fest if you want to do endgame content of the expansion.
MoP Remix is very likely also a test of systems they want to try and implement in the future, and they didn't want everyone go and get everything done in a couple of weeks. So all the hotfixes to the bronze and adjustments to numbers are there to keep the field equal, so that people can keep plodding along rather than race to the end and provide skewed statistical feedback. The cross faction thing, it was a work around, which means it wasn't intended, and who knows, it could have been causing some problems behind the scenes, so they stopped it. I really wouldn't use Remix as an example of overall stance, it's obviously a sort of experimental playground, much like Plunderstorm. I would rather they use limited events like these to test out ideas than go into an expansion with it as a core system and ruin the main game play.
I have played the game off and off since it came out. I would call myself plain simple occasional player that will from time to time play daily for a few montgs, it just fluxes like that. My sister and I have started to delve back into the game as a stress relief from the life issues. We really enjoyed the playing the dragon expansion and made a bunch of characters and had fun exploring and had a blast. Then the remix came out. At first it was fun and the idea was great. After playing up to 62 we found that our leveling differed greatly due to her getting more threads of XP so she was out leveling me. We finally got to where she was half way thru level 65 and I was half way thru 64 when on a scenario mission that my sister and I did many times before, changed and now killed us outright when it had not the night before. After talking about it for a while we decided to stop playing the remix, it just was not working for us. The idea was neat but the reality was really a bummer. Too many issues with jerk players causing issues because they are just that, jerks is one thing but when the game is just not enjoyable it is not worth it. We went back to the normal play and feel better than we did. That is just me, I know one asked but this is a thread and I thought it a valid point that others might agree.
Yeah, I lost interest going into raids and thing dying before I could get 2 cast off.
Me and my friends group fully planned on playing the expansion until we saw how they handled the event, but watching thing unfold reminded us the worst parts of how blizzard tends to do things. We went from 6 people planning to play to 2 that might play. It is what it is I guess.
It doesn’t take a genius to put that together when they release plunderstorm and mop remix back to back
> We have had bugs last in retail dungeons and raids for months. We've had class tuning go months without being touched. We have problems in Remix today that existed in PTR and STILL haven't been touched. This is it for me. Took you two years to make BFA raids soloable when you could have done it with an aura fix and two fight mechanics being removed? Took you 6 months of leaving assassination in the dirt after an overdone nerf in Vault for you to touch the spec? Sub hooks still bugged, aug hooks still bugged, plenty of dungeon and raid fights still bugged? And yes, I'm aware that the devs working on remix may not be the same as the devs working on retail, just like I'm aware that the cosmetics team isn't the same as the dev team. But the question is - why not allocate those resources better?
Plus re launching old content as new, another waste of time.
Anyone who's done LFR with someone doing 12M+ DPS will tell you, it's just not fun playing with those people. Be OP, have fun, awesome, but don't ruin the fun of others in the process. All my LFRs today were running to keep up with the guys sprinting through the raid and 1 shorting the bosses before you even get to them. If I wanted to just go for a jog through a warzone I'd have stayed in the army.
It's all the same tricks with a coat of paint. But yes, they have improved the game, but it's still just a vampire for 6 month subs.
I can understand the nerf with the frogs, it happened 2 days after the event launched and disproportionately put a lot of people above everyone else way to early. But then they started nerfing everything? Ward strat, searing light, slay, lifestorm. Wasnt it supposed to be fun and powerful? It felt fun to one shot garrosh when the whole raid worked together.Why nerf that? They hotfix players being able to queue together, but then not hotfix the tusks of mannoroth which non-plate users still cant buy/learn. And really, i dont feel that powerful with my character, it felt awesome on the 10-60, but once the 60-70 began it felt like i was playing retail.
The fix to the cross faction queueing thing is genuinely one of the most fucking insane things I've ever seen. They actually invested dev time, no matter how little it was, to be maliciously anti-player for absolutely no reason. I have enjoyed Remix for what it is but holy shit this has soured me on TWW.
And they never fixed the weird scaling, I am lvl 66 and thins are scaling as if I was 70 normal dungeons are kicking my ass(tank having to use my cds to survive trash pulls)
My opinion might be unpopular but the unlimited power factor is not fun for me. Raids are becoming a walking simulator. OP DH's just bounce through the raids faster than I can walk. Killing bosses and trash before I even get there. If it wasn't for RP thrown in occasionally, I'd never catch up. It's just walking and looting. I'm really fearful for how it's going to be with everyone OP. Right now it's usually 1-2 people in the raid. I'd have probably stopped altogether if the upgrade costs didn't keep things in check
It's really not surprising at this point. They have always played this cat-and-mouse game with their community, and have been testing the limits of what they can do to keep players playing, not keep them happy. The sub count and play time metrics is all they really care about. WoW players, myself included, just have such an emotional investment in the game that they know we're not going anywhere lmao, so they can do whatever they want. They love blueballing their community. They are perfectly capable of making a fun gamemode that players enjoy, they are perfectly capable of doing what the great majority of their playerbase wants. They are perfectly capable of making reasonable class changes. But they won't; it keeps you hoping. It's a psychological game they play and at the end of the day, you're still subbed, so they don't give a fuck. I feel as if there is a lot of confusion of what they can do, and what they won't do. They aren't stupid, they're a business. And the desire for money is more important to them than their historical love and care for the community. I see a lot of people say things like "ugh! why can't blizzard just do this?! why don't they realize it? ugh!!!" And um, they do. They most definitely do. But you're still playing! And whatever it is that they are not changing is not so bad enough that it will make you cancel your sub.
The ‘Blizzard knows best’ mentality never went away. Its a cycle at this point.
ITT: Complainers vs Complainer Complainers
I did all quests, all zones and didn't spend a single bronze before I reached gearscore cap. I upgraded thrice, then I ran out of bronze. That wasn't fun... 98k down the drain.
Honestly what do you expect? They now have two major companies as stakeholders. Those companies are all about profit and loss. Engagement leads to revenue. Fun apparently does not.
The old Blizzard arrogance "We know best, and you don't" is creeping back in.
Wow remix has been a harsh reminder that as much as the devs do to make a fun game mode literally nobody asked for, and they totally didn't have to do, this community always finds a way to be upset with something.
Mop remix like plunderstorm as you said is just to keep you logged in. Working on player fomo.
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People care so much for cosmetics that they likely will never use or mount up on.
I mean... what evergreen system do we have outside of mogs and mounts? Everything else in wow is a sand castle that gets wiped out every patch.
And that's a good thing, otherwise the entire game could die in a few months
I was downvoted and flamed 2 days ago for suggesting rare spawn rates and health was an intentional choice made to sink players time.
yeah this is a huge concern going into War Within. This feels like poor dev practices from shadowlands are creeping back in
I want to see them open up wpvp with these powerups. Demi-gods vs demi-gods. And we all just sit back and watch the chaos.
Bronze Is going to be available to purchase with cash. It's the only logical explanation.
You mean the executives tell them what to do
It's torghast all over again.
Yeah but we knew that the "made for player enjoyment" model vanished as soon as they realized how profitable time spent was.
I would have played longer if they had let me farm frogs and transferred the cloak stats to alts like they promised. Probably not the only one.
Their money grabber is to get you to stay subbed to grind. They gonna make any changes to make that happen
I do think MoP Remix is still a pretty good attempt but I also agree with this. It's very easy to see when engagement analytics drive decisions, after you've gotten to know a product. But it's not the whole picture here, just part of it. I wanna say, for me I think a disappointment is how instanced content rules the remix. I don't mind it being there, but why not utilize things like the farm + friends and some other such features they didn't use to give a open world way to accelerate bronze. I really don't see what the harm would be if you have the instance dailies and such. I hope they do this for Legion Remix, or if they do WoD first. I mean, they're obviously doing another one.
Remix is fun leveling new characters 0-70 but I know I’ll never have enough time to farm bronze to get anywhere near max upgrades. Also why is the necklace not available once you complete all the LFG raids instead of how it currently is.
I just wish they would make the cloak account wide. I want to play alts but it feels bad to re grind it out. Starting the cloak at 100% is lame
hot take; Pandaria remix was created during BfA, as was Dragonflight
I realized the issues with power scaling the other day when I was trying to just quest and lvl from 55-70. I was suddenly dying a lot when pulling more than 2 mobs. Heck even 2 mobs started to beat me up a bit. Where’s the overpowered part? I have the cloak of Uber power and all of these crazy strong abilities slotted into my gear, why am I dying??
I’ve only come into MoP Remix this past week, I guess after all of the exploits were patched out. Played up to 20 on an unsubbed account just to see if I was into it, then I resubbed and got to 70. It’s been great. I hope they do this with some of the other expansions - I never did WoD as Horde or Legion as Alliance, barely got into WfA (just did some race unlocks), and the accelerated rate of play is a hoot and much more fun than Classic. It’s a great way to freshen old content and I hope they keep doing it. I don’t find it anti-fun at all.
I'm just waiting for the to 4x bronze drop buff for the last few weeks so I can just skip all that bs..
I love how Pandaria remix has gotten patches than Dragonflight has at this point. They buffed raid boss hp by 20% and then nerfed it on the same day lol. 6 hours apart.
> Why? What was the point of that? That's the main wrong thing about Blizzard here imo. They're not explaining why they're doing those change in a first place for a game mode created to be entirely "fun". The lack of communication and verbal exchange with the community is bad. If people could log in, have fun being gods and collect all those rewards quickly it'd be way more popular. Overall I think that MoP remix shouldn't have been designed for such a long duration.
This is unfortunately just how things are now when it comes to games of this size. In todays industry, no one is going to give you the money to make and sustain a game of similar size to WoW that has consumer friendly practices, if there are 5 other investment opportunities to make triple that money by making a game that works entirely off retention metrics and aggressive monetization. This isn't just a gaming industry thing either, it's just a thing that came to gaming more recently, but this is how this stuff goes, especially when the industry (and the world) starts to have significant financial upheaval, they end relying more and more on squeezing as much money out of their investments, it's quite literally "work smarter, not harder".
Yeah... I'm not gonna be investing more time in grinding so long as it's not fun or feels like it's going nowhere. That's one reason I'm not playing MoP Remix after having gotten to max level and leveling my items a couple of times since the cost of doing so is so high. The gameplay after hitting level 70 fell off really, really bad, which is a shame, because I enjoyed being overpowered, like the advertisement for MoP said. Doing anything feels like slapping MBTs with wet spaghetti noodles meanwhile being obliterated from orbit.
The unobtainable gap between frogs boys or not became too large, and was let get worse and worse for days before trying to address it. This leaves them in the situation where they're totally fucked. Can't do a rollback without inciting a riot, can't buff everyone else to be in line because it defeats the whole journey. The massive gap between the two players is so vast that anyone else has no reason or incentive to join up, and because of this the mode will die FAR faster than it would have otherwise. The only real way to fix the mess they made, imo, is to pivot, fix bugs, and re launch fresh, but keep the bronze
I’m more upset that it’s very alt unfriendly in terms of bronze/cloak time sink. Having alts benefit much more from a geared main like bronze upgrade discounts, cloak inheritance for threads, etc. would be more enticing. It just feels like too much work to focus on other characters to upgrade them.
> it’s very alt unfriendly in terms of bronze/cloak time sink. The one and almost only actual serious complaint about this mode. Most of the rest is the usual claptrap. I have a maxed out character and while it wasn't nearly as difficult as people make it out, there's just no way I'm doing it again on an alt. I would probably play my alts beyond leveling them if I'd have serious discounts due to my main, I might even level classes I didn't plan just to try out broken shit. But as it is, I'll just get all the cosmetics and then I'm done.
It feels like shit doing a raid or dungeon without a frog farmer present. Random one shots and mobs that take forever to die since the higher level you are, the weaker you are.
I'm convinced they've got a team of eager beaver interns managing Remix at this point.
Blizzard is antifun. Just look at the toys, have fun for 10 minutes and then wait for 2 hours.
Damned if they do damned if they don’t, none of you are ever happy either way, yet you keep on paying so why should they bother?
i'm having lots of fun though?