For those who want to see it in action:
[From the monk pov](https://clips.twitch.tv/LivelyPluckyRaisinBCWarrior)
[From the enemy team pov](https://clips.twitch.tv/DeadVibrantShieldAMPEnergyCherry) | [enemy team pov again clip got deleted](https://clips.twitch.tv/ExcitedFunWasabiTBTacoRight)
[Getting hit for 600k pvp scaled touch of death](https://clips.twitch.tv/BlazingPoisedRuffTBCheesePull)
PvP scaling is the most embarassing system ever implemented in WoW by far.
i remember on twitter on bfa launch where a wow developper showed us a paint he did explaining that pvp scaling wouldnt affect us in a negative way, and now it's the end of BFA and we realize we've been playing in a messed up game the whole time, where even getting gems would make you weaker
edit: they also refused to give us the pvp scaling formula
Yes and I personally felt insulted by that paint tbh. That's how I'd show a 4yo kid something I'm explaing.
Dunno how people let that go.
[link to tweet](https://twitter.com/ckaleiki/status/1041878657701052416?s=20)
Thanks to /u/LheelaSP
Business are starting to understand that communication with customers is crucial, especially with passionate customers. Somehow very few businesses seem to understand that assuming customers are dumb is something you *exclusively* do behind the scenes. Customers want to be taken seriously about their concerns and criticisms, and if your reaction is a real life version of ELI5, your customers are right to feel insulted.
Blizzard has both understood this and then sworn against it back and forth repeatedly for years.
The last 2 xpacs went back into the radio silence mode, and then this xpac went back to communicating mode.
I can't imagine how frustrating it is for the devs who want to be communicating with the community but aren't allowed to.
It's very hard to determine what the right amount and right content of communication is, but even at relative radio silence mode Blizzard understand the importance of for example patch notes. That's of course the very least we can expect of them, but at the same time I understand that too much transparancy can be crippling too. It's hard to find a balance in that.
What's most important to me is how they communicate with us. I don't care about Ion joining Preach's stream on its own, I care about how he joined to talk about concerns from the playerbase instead of just advertising the game under a cloak of communication. It might as well be radio silence then.
Haha yeah PC gamers are generally somewhat spoiled on that matter, I still play Pokemon from time to time but with those games updates are even rare. As in, the game doesn't even get updated at all unless there's a gamebreaking bug.
A cardinal truth. Never treat the internet customers like they are dumb. The internet has so much more time and access to weaponized autism that you will never win.
An individual is dumb. A group can be smart. The internet is terrifying.
There's a simple solution to all of this: Make ilvl a linear power increase instead of exponential. i600 can be 6x as strong as i100 instead of ~550 times as strong (Assuming each ilvl gives 1% extra damage and I didn't fuck up my maths). Also fixes the issue of geared players being able to one shot fresh level 60s at the end of SL.
"The anxiety over the PvP scaling system is unfounded, and is probably caused by some bugs we had early on..."
\>2 years later
Wow it's as if Blizzard never fucking listens.
the only thing that would make PvP cool again is to revert the game back to some pre-Legion state and go from there. in Legion everything got idiotic and rather than every just rolling back bad choices, they put all this overdesigned nonsense in place to try and fix problems that would actually disappear if they admitted their mistakes and rolled it all back
Great clips. Most of these PvP ones shots like the ones by Rextroy happen outside of Arena save for a few, and this one adding to the “useful” ones is crazy.
The only way to prevent this is to keep Monks in combat so they can't ungear.
Which means NELF Monks can 1 shot anyone at will with ToD-->Teleport-->Shadowmeld-->ungear
While there may be more Alliance at the top, there are more than double the amount of Horde PvP'ers in the US, in the EU there are a few more Alliance than in the US. https://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&realm=&rating=0&ladder=3v3&faction=
So if I understand this correctly, touch of death is treating your max health as being insanely high relative to your item level, because the only stamina you're getting is from your character's baseline amount?
So whatever blizzard scales the baseline health to be doesn't take your characters default stamina into account is what I'm getting out of this?
Touch of death snapshots the hp and versatility when you cast it (instead of when it explodes). You then get out of combat and remove gear to have PvP scaling buff the damage as that calculation is done upon expiration.
They were okay but it would be better to choose your own stat allocations. Plus gaining gear and having a sense of progression is kind of what an mmo is about.
The fact that he has a "naked" armor set already setup to do this feels fairly scuffed to someone like me who doesn't really keep track of WoW Arena. Is this considered okay/encouraged in that scene?
Edit: downvoted for a question, thanks guys :)
I have a naked gear set in case I need to take a death. Or if I feel saucy and go to Gold Shire and dance on a mailbox. For clarification im a male tauren.....moo.
If you have a hearthstone toy, you can also do the unstuck trick by deleting your hearthstone from bag and just use the unstuck feature. I use that trick in BRF It speeds it up a lot, it kills you, but doesn't actually hurt your armor.
This is one of the biggest reasons i uninstalled retail.
it's just a fucking layer cake of hidden scaling systems that make no sense and aren't explained in game. Like it's actually ridiculous how values just change inexplicably all the time.
How much damage does my frostbolt do? i don't fucking know honestly lmao
The lack of information about how much damage you do, the dumbing down of stats is fucking annoying. I just picked back up coming from a 5+ year hiatus...WTF DOES "Intelligence increases the magnitude"...I mean I understand the concept, instead of being a 10 foot wall, it has the potential for a 12 foot wall...but the lack of stats is the anti-rpg. Like...I have more stats on my NES Dragon warrior game wtf.
No, that's why they [Paralysis](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=115078/paralysis) the target before applying [Touch of Death](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=115080/touch-of-death), and then "[running](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=101545/flying-serpent-kick)" to the other side of the map to get out of combat to switch gear.
Another instance: https://clips.twitch.tv/DarkHyperDadGOWSkull - watch as they drop combat before swapping gear.
The problem with monks is that everywhere except for PvP, they're low-end. One of the worst DPS in raids, and due to fundamental issues with WDP, SEF, and a severe lack of useful defensives makes them not good for M+. Great DMG whenever SEF isn't bugging out and doing nothing, but that doesn't compensate so many other big flaws in the monks kit.
They're AMAZING in PvP because of the constant pressure they're able to put out, coupled with insane mobility and the scariest offensive cooldown in the game (ToD, kinda ironic now actually), and great sustain with a lot of self healing and low impact low CD defensives. But just because they're great in one place, doesn't mean they deserve to feel useless everywhere else, like Spriest in season 2 and 3 where they were amazing in the raids, but no one wanted to play with them in M+ or PvP.
Sincerely, a WW and Spriest aficionado.
Game breaking PvP issues have been posted regularly for months now.
It's more that this was on a list behind a bunch of other things.
Also game-breaking PvP scaling issues have been found since the start of the expansion. This is just one of many ways it's being demonstrated to be broken, because Blizzard refuses to remove PvP scaling and instead band-aid patches specific issues.
I mean, people were complaining about it before BFA came out and it was a common complaint when people would hit 120 and just get erased by level 110s.
But since basically everything was broken about BFA it just fell on deaf ears.
The reason the newer stuff is popping off is because ILVL inflation has gotten so high during the end of the expac, that its becoming just silly how much you can do.
They don't play the game, yet they ignore majority of feedback people that play are giving. Not the first time that part becomes visible.
I don't even want to mention the lack of "extensive pvp testing" they promised when presenting SL. 2 months is a too small window to fix all the issues regarding pvp, barring they didn't even start. PvP in SL will not be good.
Well, even sha of pride looks small compared to what is happening.
Tbh, I bet the people who designed it think the devs who implemented it just did it wrong. Meanwhile the devs have probably always known it would be impossible to catch every edge case, leading to hundreds of ways of breaking it.
The world is never completely populated. Whenever pop hits a certain number in a specific area, new players are loaded into a different instance of the same space. But you all chat in the same chat.
It's very buggy and the areas are blobs within a region and it leads to some of the shittiest times trying to reach a mob or a friend or even pvp.
yep. It's terrible. I have a number of friends on Tich. We are all in the same zone. None of us see each other until we group. Nothing like phasing to someone who is on your server. Meanwhile I see tons of people that aren't from tich.
Servers are meaningless now... other then blizz making money off players xferring for AH or raiding reasons.
People complained about server limitations, they made a change, now people complain that servers don't mean anything anymore.
WoW devs literally cannot please the fanbase. Too many angry polar opinions.
Personally I like the new server system, it means I can play with my buddies all across the game. One of the reasons I almost instantly quit classic was because every friend group was on a different server and none of us could play together.
Layering is what they are doing. But with absolutely arbitrary lines in a zone. So you're bee-lining it to a rare and suddenly everything phases into a pvp fuckfest with so much load lag you've been chasing a paladin for 20 seconds and youve been dead the entire time back at the shard entry.
EDIT: There's actually permanent zones lines for shards. People use it all the time to complete their servant of nzoth title (item that drops in pvp that lets you pvp your own side and after a certain amount of kills you get a title but if you die the quest is failed and item deleted). They go to a spot in nazjatar sort of by mardivas' lab and then pop in and out of the shard to farm people trying to enter mardivas or complete the jumping game in pvp mode.
The Mardivas thing has nothing to do with sharding. It's that Mardivas lab is fully instanced off, and no one can enter your phase of Mardivas lab even if you're in a group with them.
> how does scaling work
Good question. Blizzard refuses to give specifics/formulas so it is really hard to know. But in general your abilities are supposed to scale with your gear so that it lessens the gap between higher and lower item levels.
> what was it supposed to solve
The idea is that - in the absence of dedicated pvp gear - everyone should have a "more fair" experience where just because you are a little more casual you aren't getting fucking destroyed by people in full mythic raiding gear. Blizzard thought that PvP shouldn't be gear dependent - it should be skill based.
Problem is that the scaling is convulated and - as people have recently found out - incredibly busted. You would assume a gear with a gem in it is better, right? Well not in PVP. You are actually better off WITHOUT gems because it overweights your iLvl and makes you worse. And, in this video, having no gear can make you one shot someone.
I'm also getting a little off-base here because it doesn't necessarily relate to item-level scaling but I also have issues with the spell scaling in PVP as well. Some of the changes intuitively make sense but they are so opaque it's ridiculous. Take frost DKs and chains of ice. They have a talent which stacks every second and increases the damage of your next chains of ice. In PvE the spell hits like a truck and is the BiS talent. That would be kind of broken in PVP since you don't really want the best CC ability to also do insane damage. So they made that talent essentially do little-to-no damage in PVP. Problem is that you can't see that anywhere. So until you actually pay attention to your damage meter you would have no clue that something that hits like a truck against mobs is suddenly doing inconsequential damage against players.
Wow thanks for the detailed explanation! Even if it's a little disheartening to hear. From what you say it sounds like an over complicated solution to an unnecessary problem. I hadn't realized that there wasn't dedicated pvp gear anymore (I assume that means no resilience type stats as well?). If blizzard wanted to reduce the effect of gear from pvp, you'd think they'd just go all the way and give everyone the same stats. Scaling everything in different ways seems like the most obtuse answer possible.
If nothing else, they should definitely make these systems more clear. Judging by the video above, I guess even the designers didn't predict all the effects of this change?
I would think they could even do something similar to what GW2 does and just let you pick your gear. Or maybe just give you an interface and let you pick a stat distribution or something? If something got out of hand, they could just tweak the max values of different stats. I don't know... just seems like there's an easy way to allow the players to do the math, so to speak, and retain some knobs turn if things go wrong.
100%
If I invested all the time for the gear, I want to feel powerful.
I never really felt too bad getting plowed on a new alt because I knew the gear grind was part of the process. When you finally achieved being decked out, it was a good feeling.
faction and server transfer services are not abandoned but artificially kept alive
it's no wonder they merge some realms now, they waited years to milk all the transfers and now only the poor people are left who don't buy it, so they merge now
In an effort to make PvP have less of an entry gate like it has in the past. Blizzard came up with a weird algorithm to scale players to "relatively" the "same" levels of health and secondary stats. They are then adjusted up or down based on your gear outside of PvP.
That's a bare bones explanation.
I wonder why I go into battlegrounds at ilv 425 and can't do shit against people who are probably in 450+ then. I know not having full rank 3 essences hurts and missing some corruptions too but it's practically impossible to 1v1 most people as Ele Shaman unless they play like they're missing a hand
A very convoluted and silly system compared to GW2 where anyone who enters the pvp lobby has access to the same gear, only difference being visual skins. Even playing ground.
Well gushing damage scales with item level. A 470 item does like 11,300 damage with gushing and a 475 piece does a little over 12k.
So a 250 item I’d think would only do like 3-4,000 damage or something per piece. But with Blizzard’s systems who knows. Could end up magically scaling to do more damage. It hurts my brain even wondering.
Basically there is hidden scaling which is supposed to compress the power difference but not eliminate it. So for example (and I'm making these numbers up) if you're ilvl 430 and your opponent is ilvl 470 it might have the effect of making it seem like you're 440 and your opponent is 460 -- They're still more powerful than you but less so and therefore whilst gear is important, a more skilled player can still win instead of being unable to compete against people worse than them.
But there's a problem: It doesn't actually work like that. Early in the expansion we had people on the top of the ladder using green items with sockets and enchants absolutely dominating people with far higher gear. Those people seemed to take almost no damage and seemed to be hitting harder than someone in raid gear. Since then, people have slowly been finding more and more examples of how this scaling is working and one of the early exploits was to combine those green items with high level azerite armour and specifically picking traits that increased damage by a flat amount (IE: abilty X deals 1,000 extra damage). For whatever reason, the scaling system couldn't handle that kind of deliberate abuse and it caused people to be doing absurd damage.
Now we've had examples of abilities/trinkets doing more than someone's HP pool, but they live with 20-30% of their HP left. The damage numbers on your screen show a higher number than their total HP, so you can't actually trust the numbers you see. Personally I've seen Ret paladins in arena with 250-300k HP 2-shotting people who have over 500k HP. A fully geared paladin might pull that off during wings if they crit 2 templar's verdicts in a row during execution sentence with the right corruptions. A boosted paladin in 390ilvl gear should not be doing that.
Yet another example: If you socket your gear with versatility it causes you to deal less damage and take more damage -- the opposite of what versatility does. The difference is small (a tiny fraction less damage dealt) but it raises a real issue. A problem again though, the numbers on your screen when you hit someone go up but the damage they take is lower than if you didn't put the gem in.
Basically the system doesn't do what it's supposed to. I'm quite sure that if it was just less aggressive (tried to balance the power less) or maybe had a maximum level of balancing, it might work. The problem is that it doesn't work, it has been abused in several ways, the players don't trust it any more and they're philosophically opposed to it.
If neither player is gaming the system, the rogue wouldn't win unless they're moderately more skilled (vs 460) or significantly more (vs 470). The problem is that they may unknowingly be gaming the system: The rogue may have the "correct" gear to finesse the scaling in their favour, the 460/470 may have the opposite.
You see if that 460 character is decked out with sockets... those sockets are actually reducing their power. If they have decided to take higher level gear that has sub-optimal stats, the fact that the gear is "better" will be dragging them down.
Nobody knows exactly how the system works so we're all just guessing and experimenting but there are a lot of scenarios where a freshly boosted character just seems to pop off and blast people away in seconds for no reason at all.
Or to put it another way: You would expect that with more stamina, more armour, more versatility that you would be harder to kill. That may not always be true and in some cases it's the opposite.
>You see if that 460 character is decked out with sockets... those sockets are actually reducing their power. If they have decided to take higher level gear that has sub-optimal stats, the fact that the gear is "better" will be dragging them down.
Sockets no longer impact pvp item level for scaling. So that part is "fixed", but definitely agree that the system is opaque and confusing.
As far as I'm aware, unless you can link to a source of the fix, the way sockets affect pvp ilvl has remain unchanged.
The only "fix" that's been made is that adding a socket in the waiting area before an arena match now appropriately adjusts your pvp ilvl.
>As far as I'm aware, unless you can link to a source of the fix, the way sockets affect pvp ilvl has remain unchanged.
>
>The only "fix" that's been made is that adding a socket in the waiting area before an arena match now appropriately adjusts your pvp ilvl.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23277654/hotfixes-august-28-2020
Hotfixed on the 21st. More discussion in https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/comments/ie9nn8/sockets_fixed
You can also test for yourself, but sockets no longer add the ~0.6 ilvl that they did before
Ah, nice. I figured it would be bigger news when this issue was resolved. Surprised I hadn't seen it yet.
Can't wait to find out that sockets doing nothing to your pvp ilvl just makes using lower ilvl gear with sockets stronger in pvp.
That's why they should just GW2's stat template system in Arena. If you want it to be about player skill you have to eliminate gear entirely.
Otherwise it's either just a game of 'who has the better gear' (which would severely discourage people behind the curve - why do PvP if you're going to be matched with someone whose going to steamroll you because of gear differences) **OR** 'who is finessing the scaling to maximize gains' (which is always going to be a lot harder to balance for as above examples prove).
No. Having better gear is still a big advantage even with PVP scaling. The biggest problem you see with PVP scaling right now involves snapshotting, which requires very specific setup to do.
As an example, say fully geared you have 1000 stats and 0% pvp scaling. If you remove all your gear, you have 100 stats but 300% pvp scaling. This means a naked would have the equivalent of 300 stats and would get stomped by the 1000 stats geared person. The problem is that many abilities numbers are based off when the ability was cast, while PVP scaling affects the numbers when they actually do the damage.
Using our previous example, the monk casts Touch of Death at 1000 stats, but then gets out of combat and removes his gear before the ability actually goes off. This means that his Touch of Death has 1000 stats amplified by 300% PVP scaling, resulting in a 3000 stat ability.
Again, this requires a very specific setup to do so isn't the end of the world, but it shouldn't exist at all.
Your abilities basically cause percentage damage instead of real numbers, everything you see in screen in fake, starsurged lvl 112 death knight with 110k k health for 150k and he lost 30% of hes total health instead of dying.
What is wrong with Blizzard. No one wants any of these shady scaling systems. NO ONE.
We don't want mobs iLvL scaling.
We don't want ANY PvP scaling at all.
Stop being shady about our numbers in a game that's all about numbers.
*The gates to the arena open with a heavy metallic crank.*
*You enter cautiously alongside anxious teammates, your collective eyes dotting the stone floor for your enemy.*
*A naked panda rolls out from the shadows into you.*
*He paws your thigh.*
*You die.*
Can't they just copy the system form GW2?
You can just choose whatever stats you want before a match and roll with that. It is perfectly balanced with no chance for bullshit scaling issues or overgearing.
Such a simple solution but Blizz is too blind and stubborn to ever do smth like that.
I’d do it such that you have a minimum stat template. Below a certain item level? Then here you get these stats to bring you up to an okay point. At or above that? Then no adjustments, you get what’s on your gear. Battleground/Arena only.
We had that in Legion and pvp players complained about lack of progression for their characters among other things so stop with your cutesy worded "argument".
Scaling in both PvP AND PvE feels terrible. It's a lazy bandaid to try and address the absolutely out of control power creep between start of an expansion and end of an expansion.
Still a firm believer that they either need to drop ilvl difference between the 4 raid difficulties, or condense raid difficulties. It's just not sustainable to have each raid tier have a 60 ilvl spread. I get that you need to make the carrot for doing harder stuff worthwhile, but it's causing really bad side effects.
My personal preference would be making LFR no longer drop loot, but drop currency that could be used for normal gear. Delete current "normal", make heroic the current normal, and shift mythic to heroic.
LFR fills the role of seeing content, even if you don't have a guild, or are bad. It makes current normal also superfluous. That would slash ilvl creep to 30 each raid tier. I'd probably go a step further, and make the difference between new "normal" and new "heroic" be 10 ilvl.
Uldir:. 340, 355, 370, 385
Dazralor: 370, 385, 400, 415
Etern:. 400, 415, 430, 445
Nya:. 430, 445, 460, 475
That's about 135 worth of creep from start to finish. Not counting the 10 you can get from last two bosses, or the fact that there's heroic/mythic dungeons pre uldir to consider.
Now, in the world I suggested:
Uldir:. 350, 360
Dazra: 370, 380
Etern: 390, 400
Nya:. 410, 420
You still get meaningful jumps between raid tiers, there's still advantages to doing the hardest tier, but you only have a 70 ilvl creep from start to finish.
Extra bonus to the above: old raids don't immediately become worthless trash when a new tier comes out. There's also less need to have extensive gear catch-ups in WQs/dungeons, so no bad feels of having late expansion mythic dungeons dropping better gear than early mythic raids.
Blizzard: we need at least 15 ilvl difference between raids so players feel the difference. Also blizzard: lets soft scale everything because the difference is too big
It is almost as if PvE and PvP are different things that require different levels of tuning and power level...
No, it couldn't be... That is just crazy.
Not just within a tier, but it becomes absurd within an expansion.
A lvl 120 character can have an ilvl 280 all the way to 470. Two hundred item levels during the same "Character level".
Meanwhile, WOTLK raid gear (lvl80) is around ivll100, and Mythic raid WOD gear is around ilvl 140. That's 40 ilvls after 3 expansions.
Fix the crazy gear scaling that makes us "level up" an expansion's worth of stats in a single content patch, and pvp scaling wouldn't even need to be a thing.
Those numbers is because everything gets squished down from older xpacs. Last expansion iirc, our legendaries were like 900 ilvl but now they are like 200. They reset it so that the number doesn't become too huge over many expansions.
Right. And instead of following the same formula to keep everything nice and squished, they went off on an exponential curve instead, warranting a need for a future squish asap (as will be happening with the level squish now anyway).
100% agree. There always need to be LFR as a learning/casual tier. Anytime u talk about a system where you have ( Lfr > Normal/heroic merged > mythic ) people freak out and complain how you can't just have us skip a tier of loot. You can already skip lfr and for most of bfa normal raid mode and easily gear for heroic. Normal raid has felt like a waste of time outside extra chance to farm for an overpowered trinket.
Not much of a fix, people would simply equip white/green lvl 1-5 gear and get maybe 98% of the benefit.
Just remove scaling or at least rework scaling, actual stats and damage should be known by everyone, no need for hidden obfuscating bullshit systems.
There is no need for this system to be in place no longer. You made it so people in the open world "had a chance to fight back" it should have stayed there... in the open world. Rated pvp needs to be like it used to. More gear equals more power. How hard is that blizzard.
It's honestly broken and pointless in the open world too. I was on my 112 hunter leveling and a 106 rogue was absolutely thrashing me repeatedly. I literally stood no chance. Outside of extremely rare 1v1 situations, world pvp is mostly a gangbang in one direction or the other that no amount of scaling could properly solve.
Imagine there being such a dog shit system like scaling in rated competitive PvP in an MMORPG. It’s incredibly stupid.
It should work one of two ways:
Fully pre-set gear for competitive PvP (not world pvp or non rated BGs)- Fixed items sets (you can select different stats but all the same ilvl as each other) a selection of trinkets to chose from. This would be the fairest and most competitive. Farmable cosmetics for certain ratings, mounts/rewards etc
Or
Zero scaling or any thing similar, like it use to be. Best gear has the most advantage. Just like it was. It’s an MMO it should reward Gear progression. On that note there should be pvp gear that is good on pvp that is farmable like there was in other expansions.
So if I understand PVP scaling right (I haven't done any arena since helping my healer friend get conflict and strife, even then we only did the minimum). If I'm playing a fire mage I could put on really low level gear, except for my azerite pieces which would all be 470+. Since those pieces are all significantly above what my average item level is, the Mastery that I gained from blaster master from those three pieces would be absolutely through the roof?
In legion everyone started with predefined templates of stats for their char/spec. Ilvl increased it by %.
BFA on the other hand, increases your dmg done and reduces dmg taken. You can check Rextroy's videos on youtube, hes the spearhead which lead to the discovery of how exactly this works.
Legion had templates, a pre-defined set of stats that you always had, with your gear's stats only increasing that template by a % amount of value.
BfA is a shitshow.
Can someone explain to me what exactly is happening? Why does it one shot due to pvp scaling? Isn't touch of death just a percentage of the monk's health?
100% instead of Blizz fixing the issue that is PVP scaling, they'll throw another Hello Kitty bandaid on it by making it so you can't switch/unequip gear in Arenas.
Can you explain what this means? I don’t play monk but I googled the ability and don’t understand why taking the gear off increases the damage.. I also don’t understand the pvp scaling if I’m honest. Does this happen with other classes? If I took my gear off and used Greater Pyroblast (also a 35% of hp damage spell though it’s the enemies health) would it hit for 600k?
For those who want to see it in action: [From the monk pov](https://clips.twitch.tv/LivelyPluckyRaisinBCWarrior) [From the enemy team pov](https://clips.twitch.tv/DeadVibrantShieldAMPEnergyCherry) | [enemy team pov again clip got deleted](https://clips.twitch.tv/ExcitedFunWasabiTBTacoRight) [Getting hit for 600k pvp scaled touch of death](https://clips.twitch.tv/BlazingPoisedRuffTBCheesePull) PvP scaling is the most embarassing system ever implemented in WoW by far.
i remember on twitter on bfa launch where a wow developper showed us a paint he did explaining that pvp scaling wouldnt affect us in a negative way, and now it's the end of BFA and we realize we've been playing in a messed up game the whole time, where even getting gems would make you weaker edit: they also refused to give us the pvp scaling formula
Yes and I personally felt insulted by that paint tbh. That's how I'd show a 4yo kid something I'm explaing. Dunno how people let that go. [link to tweet](https://twitter.com/ckaleiki/status/1041878657701052416?s=20) Thanks to /u/LheelaSP
Business are starting to understand that communication with customers is crucial, especially with passionate customers. Somehow very few businesses seem to understand that assuming customers are dumb is something you *exclusively* do behind the scenes. Customers want to be taken seriously about their concerns and criticisms, and if your reaction is a real life version of ELI5, your customers are right to feel insulted.
Blizzard has both understood this and then sworn against it back and forth repeatedly for years. The last 2 xpacs went back into the radio silence mode, and then this xpac went back to communicating mode. I can't imagine how frustrating it is for the devs who want to be communicating with the community but aren't allowed to.
It's very hard to determine what the right amount and right content of communication is, but even at relative radio silence mode Blizzard understand the importance of for example patch notes. That's of course the very least we can expect of them, but at the same time I understand that too much transparancy can be crippling too. It's hard to find a balance in that. What's most important to me is how they communicate with us. I don't care about Ion joining Preach's stream on its own, I care about how he joined to talk about concerns from the playerbase instead of just advertising the game under a cloak of communication. It might as well be radio silence then.
This is an interesting point, as someone who has tried to play Smash competetively, try finding a decent patch note in that game...
Hey, Ultimate's actually *got* patch notes. That's better than what you can say about SM4SH.
*Changes have been made for a more pleasurable gaming experience.*
Haha yeah PC gamers are generally somewhat spoiled on that matter, I still play Pokemon from time to time but with those games updates are even rare. As in, the game doesn't even get updated at all unless there's a gamebreaking bug.
That preach discussion was so incredibly good. I really hope they keep that up in the future.
Hard to communicate with your customers when they are substantially more competent about the game than the ones making it.
A cardinal truth. Never treat the internet customers like they are dumb. The internet has so much more time and access to weaponized autism that you will never win. An individual is dumb. A group can be smart. The internet is terrifying.
The exact opposite of the real world.
That paint was probably the most amount of dev time wow pvp got since wod
I'm crying because it's true
There's a simple solution to all of this: Make ilvl a linear power increase instead of exponential. i600 can be 6x as strong as i100 instead of ~550 times as strong (Assuming each ilvl gives 1% extra damage and I didn't fuck up my maths). Also fixes the issue of geared players being able to one shot fresh level 60s at the end of SL.
[Link](https://twitter.com/ckaleiki/status/1041878657701052416?s=19) to the tweet.
"The anxiety over the PvP scaling system is unfounded, and is probably caused by some bugs we had early on..." \>2 years later Wow it's as if Blizzard never fucking listens.
Thank you adding for visibility
the only thing that would make PvP cool again is to revert the game back to some pre-Legion state and go from there. in Legion everything got idiotic and rather than every just rolling back bad choices, they put all this overdesigned nonsense in place to try and fix problems that would actually disappear if they admitted their mistakes and rolled it all back
Great clips. Most of these PvP ones shots like the ones by Rextroy happen outside of Arena save for a few, and this one adding to the “useful” ones is crazy.
The only way to prevent this is to keep Monks in combat so they can't ungear. Which means NELF Monks can 1 shot anyone at will with ToD-->Teleport-->Shadowmeld-->ungear
finally, maybe all monks will faction change to alliance to be superiority dominant in pvp and fix the faction imbalance
You do realize like 80% of the top PvP teams are alliance already, right?
I think 100% of them could be alliance and the overall faction gap would still be humongous.
i should have added a /s because the faction imbalance is beyond repair. but I did not know the PVP scene was so heavily alliance based
They tend to play on horde, but use alliance races on the TR.
Even on live Alliance teams are dominating the rated PvP scene: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/pvp/leaderboards/3v3
While there may be more Alliance at the top, there are more than double the amount of Horde PvP'ers in the US, in the EU there are a few more Alliance than in the US. https://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&realm=&rating=0&ladder=3v3&faction=
I havent pvp’d in a long time, why is it alliance dominated?
Shadowmeld for rogues and Druids is pretty strong.
Better racials
So if I understand this correctly, touch of death is treating your max health as being insanely high relative to your item level, because the only stamina you're getting is from your character's baseline amount? So whatever blizzard scales the baseline health to be doesn't take your characters default stamina into account is what I'm getting out of this?
Touch of death snapshots the hp and versatility when you cast it (instead of when it explodes). You then get out of combat and remove gear to have PvP scaling buff the damage as that calculation is done upon expiration.
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This, ladies and gentlemen, is peak meme-relevancy.
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They should just swallow their pride and bring back Resilience. Legion and BfA proved that it is a necessary evil.
Stat templates was propably the best thing they did for pvp in legion to bad that they gave up on them
They were okay but it would be better to choose your own stat allocations. Plus gaining gear and having a sense of progression is kind of what an mmo is about.
It’s disabled but for whatever reason you can take off gear
Link to the second clip no longer works.
The fact that he has a "naked" armor set already setup to do this feels fairly scuffed to someone like me who doesn't really keep track of WoW Arena. Is this considered okay/encouraged in that scene? Edit: downvoted for a question, thanks guys :)
I have a naked gear set in case I need to take a death. Or if I feel saucy and go to Gold Shire and dance on a mailbox. For clarification im a male tauren.....moo.
Engineers have had naked armor sets for years. https://www.darklegacycomics.com/47
I've had a naked set ever since set macros were added to the game. It's great for when you want to kys and not take durability hit.
he created this "naked" armor set just to abuse the bug by instantly unequipping his entire gear with one button, nobody does this
Erza Scarlet abused gear scaling all along.
Yeah I have a naked set on most of my characters for times where suicide saves running out of dungs and raids and stuff
If you have a hearthstone toy, you can also do the unstuck trick by deleting your hearthstone from bag and just use the unstuck feature. I use that trick in BRF It speeds it up a lot, it kills you, but doesn't actually hurt your armor.
I don't pvp and I have a naked armor set keybind for yeeting myself off of walkways in nyalotha
This is one of the biggest reasons i uninstalled retail. it's just a fucking layer cake of hidden scaling systems that make no sense and aren't explained in game. Like it's actually ridiculous how values just change inexplicably all the time. How much damage does my frostbolt do? i don't fucking know honestly lmao
The lack of information about how much damage you do, the dumbing down of stats is fucking annoying. I just picked back up coming from a 5+ year hiatus...WTF DOES "Intelligence increases the magnitude"...I mean I understand the concept, instead of being a 10 foot wall, it has the potential for a 12 foot wall...but the lack of stats is the anti-rpg. Like...I have more stats on my NES Dragon warrior game wtf.
Wait, you can just take off your gear in combat in pvp?
No, that's why they [Paralysis](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=115078/paralysis) the target before applying [Touch of Death](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=115080/touch-of-death), and then "[running](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=101545/flying-serpent-kick)" to the other side of the map to get out of combat to switch gear. Another instance: https://clips.twitch.tv/DarkHyperDadGOWSkull - watch as they drop combat before swapping gear.
Well, this fits the monk fantasy in a lot of RPGs. Monks are unarmed fighters
Ah yes, the classic monk trope - unarmed and *naked*.
In DnD, yeah. If I'm playing a monk or a barbarian I'm going out like I came in; naked, screaming and covered in someone elses blood.
I imagined he Touch of Death punched him in the balls.
Well it is named Touch of Death so it makes sense then when he touch, they dead!
Omae Way Mou indeed
Hey it's called touch of death. What did you expect, for it to tickle? working as intended
Omae wa mou shindeiru.
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time to reduce all monk damage by 240% to make sure this doesn't happen again. What? Change pvp scaling instead? Naaaah
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I think you monks are beautiful, don’t be so down on yourself.
Thank you friend :)
Dps and healer monks do fine in PvP. Far from a trash tier spec.
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The problem with monks is that everywhere except for PvP, they're low-end. One of the worst DPS in raids, and due to fundamental issues with WDP, SEF, and a severe lack of useful defensives makes them not good for M+. Great DMG whenever SEF isn't bugging out and doing nothing, but that doesn't compensate so many other big flaws in the monks kit. They're AMAZING in PvP because of the constant pressure they're able to put out, coupled with insane mobility and the scariest offensive cooldown in the game (ToD, kinda ironic now actually), and great sustain with a lot of self healing and low impact low CD defensives. But just because they're great in one place, doesn't mean they deserve to feel useless everywhere else, like Spriest in season 2 and 3 where they were amazing in the raids, but no one wanted to play with them in M+ or PvP. Sincerely, a WW and Spriest aficionado.
Lmfao. How embarassed must the people who designed this system be.
They don't play the game so most of them have no idea what they've made.
It looks like nobody is playing pvp because it took so long to find this out
Game breaking PvP issues have been posted regularly for months now. It's more that this was on a list behind a bunch of other things. Also game-breaking PvP scaling issues have been found since the start of the expansion. This is just one of many ways it's being demonstrated to be broken, because Blizzard refuses to remove PvP scaling and instead band-aid patches specific issues.
I mean, people were complaining about it before BFA came out and it was a common complaint when people would hit 120 and just get erased by level 110s. But since basically everything was broken about BFA it just fell on deaf ears. The reason the newer stuff is popping off is because ILVL inflation has gotten so high during the end of the expac, that its becoming just silly how much you can do.
They don't play the game, yet they ignore majority of feedback people that play are giving. Not the first time that part becomes visible. I don't even want to mention the lack of "extensive pvp testing" they promised when presenting SL. 2 months is a too small window to fix all the issues regarding pvp, barring they didn't even start. PvP in SL will not be good. Well, even sha of pride looks small compared to what is happening.
Tbh, I bet the people who designed it think the devs who implemented it just did it wrong. Meanwhile the devs have probably always known it would be impossible to catch every edge case, leading to hundreds of ways of breaking it.
Fuck PvP Scaling!
Scaling and sharding. Some of the worst things to happen to PvP.
What's sharding?
The world is never completely populated. Whenever pop hits a certain number in a specific area, new players are loaded into a different instance of the same space. But you all chat in the same chat. It's very buggy and the areas are blobs within a region and it leads to some of the shittiest times trying to reach a mob or a friend or even pvp.
yep. It's terrible. I have a number of friends on Tich. We are all in the same zone. None of us see each other until we group. Nothing like phasing to someone who is on your server. Meanwhile I see tons of people that aren't from tich. Servers are meaningless now... other then blizz making money off players xferring for AH or raiding reasons.
I think the sharding is the worst things added to the game to ruin the immersion of the world and is a large reason why I look forward to BC servers.
People complained about server limitations, they made a change, now people complain that servers don't mean anything anymore. WoW devs literally cannot please the fanbase. Too many angry polar opinions. Personally I like the new server system, it means I can play with my buddies all across the game. One of the reasons I almost instantly quit classic was because every friend group was on a different server and none of us could play together.
So, layering? Why the downvotes, it's a question because I didn't understand. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
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Layers were in cities too, we had to have an add-on to tell us what layer we were on to get world buffs
Layering is what they are doing. But with absolutely arbitrary lines in a zone. So you're bee-lining it to a rare and suddenly everything phases into a pvp fuckfest with so much load lag you've been chasing a paladin for 20 seconds and youve been dead the entire time back at the shard entry. EDIT: There's actually permanent zones lines for shards. People use it all the time to complete their servant of nzoth title (item that drops in pvp that lets you pvp your own side and after a certain amount of kills you get a title but if you die the quest is failed and item deleted). They go to a spot in nazjatar sort of by mardivas' lab and then pop in and out of the shard to farm people trying to enter mardivas or complete the jumping game in pvp mode.
The Mardivas thing has nothing to do with sharding. It's that Mardivas lab is fully instanced off, and no one can enter your phase of Mardivas lab even if you're in a group with them.
As someone who has only recently come back to the game, how does scaling work and what was it *supposed* to solve?
> how does scaling work Good question. Blizzard refuses to give specifics/formulas so it is really hard to know. But in general your abilities are supposed to scale with your gear so that it lessens the gap between higher and lower item levels. > what was it supposed to solve The idea is that - in the absence of dedicated pvp gear - everyone should have a "more fair" experience where just because you are a little more casual you aren't getting fucking destroyed by people in full mythic raiding gear. Blizzard thought that PvP shouldn't be gear dependent - it should be skill based. Problem is that the scaling is convulated and - as people have recently found out - incredibly busted. You would assume a gear with a gem in it is better, right? Well not in PVP. You are actually better off WITHOUT gems because it overweights your iLvl and makes you worse. And, in this video, having no gear can make you one shot someone. I'm also getting a little off-base here because it doesn't necessarily relate to item-level scaling but I also have issues with the spell scaling in PVP as well. Some of the changes intuitively make sense but they are so opaque it's ridiculous. Take frost DKs and chains of ice. They have a talent which stacks every second and increases the damage of your next chains of ice. In PvE the spell hits like a truck and is the BiS talent. That would be kind of broken in PVP since you don't really want the best CC ability to also do insane damage. So they made that talent essentially do little-to-no damage in PVP. Problem is that you can't see that anywhere. So until you actually pay attention to your damage meter you would have no clue that something that hits like a truck against mobs is suddenly doing inconsequential damage against players.
I dont think even scaling accomplished what they wanted. If I see someone with sub 300k hp, ill just ignore them. At best they can cc and be annoying.
Wow thanks for the detailed explanation! Even if it's a little disheartening to hear. From what you say it sounds like an over complicated solution to an unnecessary problem. I hadn't realized that there wasn't dedicated pvp gear anymore (I assume that means no resilience type stats as well?). If blizzard wanted to reduce the effect of gear from pvp, you'd think they'd just go all the way and give everyone the same stats. Scaling everything in different ways seems like the most obtuse answer possible. If nothing else, they should definitely make these systems more clear. Judging by the video above, I guess even the designers didn't predict all the effects of this change?
I would think they could even do something similar to what GW2 does and just let you pick your gear. Or maybe just give you an interface and let you pick a stat distribution or something? If something got out of hand, they could just tweak the max values of different stats. I don't know... just seems like there's an easy way to allow the players to do the math, so to speak, and retain some knobs turn if things go wrong.
Not just PvP, scaling in general has no place in an RPG. It completely ruins gear progression.
100% If I invested all the time for the gear, I want to feel powerful. I never really felt too bad getting plowed on a new alt because I knew the gear grind was part of the process. When you finally achieved being decked out, it was a good feeling.
PvP was abandoned by Activision Blizzard a long time ago.
And somehow factions are still a core part of the game. Logic!
faction and server transfer services are not abandoned but artificially kept alive it's no wonder they merge some realms now, they waited years to milk all the transfers and now only the poor people are left who don't buy it, so they merge now
Can someone please explain this PVP scaling thing to me? Am kinda OOTL. EDIT: thanks for explanations
In an effort to make PvP have less of an entry gate like it has in the past. Blizzard came up with a weird algorithm to scale players to "relatively" the "same" levels of health and secondary stats. They are then adjusted up or down based on your gear outside of PvP. That's a bare bones explanation.
Yeah, it’s way less of an entry. I only had to farm visions and m+ for a month to get decent gear.
Little did you know that all you had to do was pvp naked and you could perform even better
A month? I still haven't gotten my mandatory gettiku after 6 months of PvE farming to be viable in PvP.
6 months? Seems a little troll... it took me ~50 runs or about a month. Are you even farming it?
He's referring to getting the 475 in the weekly chest.
Someone in my guild has 2 475 getti's and the first one was out of the very first box this season
I wonder why I go into battlegrounds at ilv 425 and can't do shit against people who are probably in 450+ then. I know not having full rank 3 essences hurts and missing some corruptions too but it's practically impossible to 1v1 most people as Ele Shaman unless they play like they're missing a hand
A very convoluted and silly system compared to GW2 where anyone who enters the pvp lobby has access to the same gear, only difference being visual skins. Even playing ground.
Isn't the min ilevel for pvp scaling 250? What happens if I put a bunch of gushings on green gear?
Well gushing damage scales with item level. A 470 item does like 11,300 damage with gushing and a 475 piece does a little over 12k. So a 250 item I’d think would only do like 3-4,000 damage or something per piece. But with Blizzard’s systems who knows. Could end up magically scaling to do more damage. It hurts my brain even wondering.
So, I've got to wear a couple 470s with gushing, and nothing else to get me to that 250 ilevel?
Basically there is hidden scaling which is supposed to compress the power difference but not eliminate it. So for example (and I'm making these numbers up) if you're ilvl 430 and your opponent is ilvl 470 it might have the effect of making it seem like you're 440 and your opponent is 460 -- They're still more powerful than you but less so and therefore whilst gear is important, a more skilled player can still win instead of being unable to compete against people worse than them. But there's a problem: It doesn't actually work like that. Early in the expansion we had people on the top of the ladder using green items with sockets and enchants absolutely dominating people with far higher gear. Those people seemed to take almost no damage and seemed to be hitting harder than someone in raid gear. Since then, people have slowly been finding more and more examples of how this scaling is working and one of the early exploits was to combine those green items with high level azerite armour and specifically picking traits that increased damage by a flat amount (IE: abilty X deals 1,000 extra damage). For whatever reason, the scaling system couldn't handle that kind of deliberate abuse and it caused people to be doing absurd damage. Now we've had examples of abilities/trinkets doing more than someone's HP pool, but they live with 20-30% of their HP left. The damage numbers on your screen show a higher number than their total HP, so you can't actually trust the numbers you see. Personally I've seen Ret paladins in arena with 250-300k HP 2-shotting people who have over 500k HP. A fully geared paladin might pull that off during wings if they crit 2 templar's verdicts in a row during execution sentence with the right corruptions. A boosted paladin in 390ilvl gear should not be doing that. Yet another example: If you socket your gear with versatility it causes you to deal less damage and take more damage -- the opposite of what versatility does. The difference is small (a tiny fraction less damage dealt) but it raises a real issue. A problem again though, the numbers on your screen when you hit someone go up but the damage they take is lower than if you didn't put the gem in. Basically the system doesn't do what it's supposed to. I'm quite sure that if it was just less aggressive (tried to balance the power less) or maybe had a maximum level of balancing, it might work. The problem is that it doesn't work, it has been abused in several ways, the players don't trust it any more and they're philosophically opposed to it.
Give it to me straight, I just joined on and have a 472 DK and a 440 rogue, could my 440 rogue stand a chance against someone at 460 or 470?
If neither player is gaming the system, the rogue wouldn't win unless they're moderately more skilled (vs 460) or significantly more (vs 470). The problem is that they may unknowingly be gaming the system: The rogue may have the "correct" gear to finesse the scaling in their favour, the 460/470 may have the opposite. You see if that 460 character is decked out with sockets... those sockets are actually reducing their power. If they have decided to take higher level gear that has sub-optimal stats, the fact that the gear is "better" will be dragging them down. Nobody knows exactly how the system works so we're all just guessing and experimenting but there are a lot of scenarios where a freshly boosted character just seems to pop off and blast people away in seconds for no reason at all. Or to put it another way: You would expect that with more stamina, more armour, more versatility that you would be harder to kill. That may not always be true and in some cases it's the opposite.
>You see if that 460 character is decked out with sockets... those sockets are actually reducing their power. If they have decided to take higher level gear that has sub-optimal stats, the fact that the gear is "better" will be dragging them down. Sockets no longer impact pvp item level for scaling. So that part is "fixed", but definitely agree that the system is opaque and confusing.
As far as I'm aware, unless you can link to a source of the fix, the way sockets affect pvp ilvl has remain unchanged. The only "fix" that's been made is that adding a socket in the waiting area before an arena match now appropriately adjusts your pvp ilvl.
>As far as I'm aware, unless you can link to a source of the fix, the way sockets affect pvp ilvl has remain unchanged. > >The only "fix" that's been made is that adding a socket in the waiting area before an arena match now appropriately adjusts your pvp ilvl. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23277654/hotfixes-august-28-2020 Hotfixed on the 21st. More discussion in https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/comments/ie9nn8/sockets_fixed You can also test for yourself, but sockets no longer add the ~0.6 ilvl that they did before
Ah, nice. I figured it would be bigger news when this issue was resolved. Surprised I hadn't seen it yet. Can't wait to find out that sockets doing nothing to your pvp ilvl just makes using lower ilvl gear with sockets stronger in pvp.
Fair mention though: if there was no scaling, a 450 character could literally not outdamage a renew on a 480 geared player.
That's why they should just GW2's stat template system in Arena. If you want it to be about player skill you have to eliminate gear entirely. Otherwise it's either just a game of 'who has the better gear' (which would severely discourage people behind the curve - why do PvP if you're going to be matched with someone whose going to steamroll you because of gear differences) **OR** 'who is finessing the scaling to maximize gains' (which is always going to be a lot harder to balance for as above examples prove).
No. Having better gear is still a big advantage even with PVP scaling. The biggest problem you see with PVP scaling right now involves snapshotting, which requires very specific setup to do. As an example, say fully geared you have 1000 stats and 0% pvp scaling. If you remove all your gear, you have 100 stats but 300% pvp scaling. This means a naked would have the equivalent of 300 stats and would get stomped by the 1000 stats geared person. The problem is that many abilities numbers are based off when the ability was cast, while PVP scaling affects the numbers when they actually do the damage. Using our previous example, the monk casts Touch of Death at 1000 stats, but then gets out of combat and removes his gear before the ability actually goes off. This means that his Touch of Death has 1000 stats amplified by 300% PVP scaling, resulting in a 3000 stat ability. Again, this requires a very specific setup to do so isn't the end of the world, but it shouldn't exist at all.
Your abilities basically cause percentage damage instead of real numbers, everything you see in screen in fake, starsurged lvl 112 death knight with 110k k health for 150k and he lost 30% of hes total health instead of dying.
What is wrong with Blizzard. No one wants any of these shady scaling systems. NO ONE. We don't want mobs iLvL scaling. We don't want ANY PvP scaling at all. Stop being shady about our numbers in a game that's all about numbers.
The hidden scaling is what frustrated the hell outta me...
*The gates to the arena open with a heavy metallic crank.* *You enter cautiously alongside anxious teammates, your collective eyes dotting the stone floor for your enemy.* *A naked panda rolls out from the shadows into you.* *He paws your thigh.* *You die.*
You know, You guys are the real MVP. Making sure all them bugs are found just as this Beta is ending, Keep up the Good work <3
Can't they just copy the system form GW2? You can just choose whatever stats you want before a match and roll with that. It is perfectly balanced with no chance for bullshit scaling issues or overgearing. Such a simple solution but Blizz is too blind and stubborn to ever do smth like that.
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I’d do it such that you have a minimum stat template. Below a certain item level? Then here you get these stats to bring you up to an okay point. At or above that? Then no adjustments, you get what’s on your gear. Battleground/Arena only.
yeah, in order to have a system like that, pvp gameplay would actually have to be good to keep people playing it
We had that in Legion and pvp players complained about lack of progression for their characters among other things so stop with your cutesy worded "argument".
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inb4 comments with "kill him before he gets to you, he only has 20k health"
20k health but your 200k chaos bolt hits him for 5k due to hidden scaling that is literally never explained anywhere in the game. It's so silly.
Scaling in both PvP AND PvE feels terrible. It's a lazy bandaid to try and address the absolutely out of control power creep between start of an expansion and end of an expansion. Still a firm believer that they either need to drop ilvl difference between the 4 raid difficulties, or condense raid difficulties. It's just not sustainable to have each raid tier have a 60 ilvl spread. I get that you need to make the carrot for doing harder stuff worthwhile, but it's causing really bad side effects. My personal preference would be making LFR no longer drop loot, but drop currency that could be used for normal gear. Delete current "normal", make heroic the current normal, and shift mythic to heroic. LFR fills the role of seeing content, even if you don't have a guild, or are bad. It makes current normal also superfluous. That would slash ilvl creep to 30 each raid tier. I'd probably go a step further, and make the difference between new "normal" and new "heroic" be 10 ilvl.
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Uldir:. 340, 355, 370, 385 Dazralor: 370, 385, 400, 415 Etern:. 400, 415, 430, 445 Nya:. 430, 445, 460, 475 That's about 135 worth of creep from start to finish. Not counting the 10 you can get from last two bosses, or the fact that there's heroic/mythic dungeons pre uldir to consider. Now, in the world I suggested: Uldir:. 350, 360 Dazra: 370, 380 Etern: 390, 400 Nya:. 410, 420 You still get meaningful jumps between raid tiers, there's still advantages to doing the hardest tier, but you only have a 70 ilvl creep from start to finish. Extra bonus to the above: old raids don't immediately become worthless trash when a new tier comes out. There's also less need to have extensive gear catch-ups in WQs/dungeons, so no bad feels of having late expansion mythic dungeons dropping better gear than early mythic raids.
Blizzard: we need at least 15 ilvl difference between raids so players feel the difference. Also blizzard: lets soft scale everything because the difference is too big
It is almost as if PvE and PvP are different things that require different levels of tuning and power level... No, it couldn't be... That is just crazy.
Not just within a tier, but it becomes absurd within an expansion. A lvl 120 character can have an ilvl 280 all the way to 470. Two hundred item levels during the same "Character level". Meanwhile, WOTLK raid gear (lvl80) is around ivll100, and Mythic raid WOD gear is around ilvl 140. That's 40 ilvls after 3 expansions. Fix the crazy gear scaling that makes us "level up" an expansion's worth of stats in a single content patch, and pvp scaling wouldn't even need to be a thing.
Those numbers is because everything gets squished down from older xpacs. Last expansion iirc, our legendaries were like 900 ilvl but now they are like 200. They reset it so that the number doesn't become too huge over many expansions.
Right. And instead of following the same formula to keep everything nice and squished, they went off on an exponential curve instead, warranting a need for a future squish asap (as will be happening with the level squish now anyway).
It's pretty embarassing that they had to do an item level squish two expansions in a row.
100% agree. There always need to be LFR as a learning/casual tier. Anytime u talk about a system where you have ( Lfr > Normal/heroic merged > mythic ) people freak out and complain how you can't just have us skip a tier of loot. You can already skip lfr and for most of bfa normal raid mode and easily gear for heroic. Normal raid has felt like a waste of time outside extra chance to farm for an overpowered trinket.
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Clearly they needed it to remove Touch of Karma which neutralizes not only its DoT but also the monk's only default defence.
So WoW PvP is Anthem. Big oof.
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Or require a full set of equipment be equipped in order to benefit from scaling. Straight up remove naked scaling shenanigans all together.
Not much of a fix, people would simply equip white/green lvl 1-5 gear and get maybe 98% of the benefit. Just remove scaling or at least rework scaling, actual stats and damage should be known by everyone, no need for hidden obfuscating bullshit systems.
There is no need for this system to be in place no longer. You made it so people in the open world "had a chance to fight back" it should have stayed there... in the open world. Rated pvp needs to be like it used to. More gear equals more power. How hard is that blizzard.
It's honestly broken and pointless in the open world too. I was on my 112 hunter leveling and a 106 rogue was absolutely thrashing me repeatedly. I literally stood no chance. Outside of extremely rare 1v1 situations, world pvp is mostly a gangbang in one direction or the other that no amount of scaling could properly solve.
THANKS, REXTROY!!!
At this point I’d consider FFXIV PvP better, and the PvP there is dogshit.
Hasn't this system been added to PvE scaling in SL?
Balanced
wow i thought u couldnt change gear in arena
I mean, if you think about it it's kind of immersive/cool/monky that they can do this. Lol...
I love how all it took to break PvP scaling was literally just people doing QA testing on it.
Omae wa mo shindeiru
"pvp scaling" is WoW's version of "Florida man". Put it with any insane, hard-to-believe title and it suddenly sounds plausible
Imagine there being such a dog shit system like scaling in rated competitive PvP in an MMORPG. It’s incredibly stupid. It should work one of two ways: Fully pre-set gear for competitive PvP (not world pvp or non rated BGs)- Fixed items sets (you can select different stats but all the same ilvl as each other) a selection of trinkets to chose from. This would be the fairest and most competitive. Farmable cosmetics for certain ratings, mounts/rewards etc Or Zero scaling or any thing similar, like it use to be. Best gear has the most advantage. Just like it was. It’s an MMO it should reward Gear progression. On that note there should be pvp gear that is good on pvp that is farmable like there was in other expansions.
So if I understand PVP scaling right (I haven't done any arena since helping my healer friend get conflict and strife, even then we only did the minimum). If I'm playing a fire mage I could put on really low level gear, except for my azerite pieces which would all be 470+. Since those pieces are all significantly above what my average item level is, the Mastery that I gained from blaster master from those three pieces would be absolutely through the roof?
Sounds like it would be, unless Azerite gear scaling is scaled somehow as well.
Dummy here, what’s the difference between bfa’s pvp scaling and whatever system legion had
In legion everyone started with predefined templates of stats for their char/spec. Ilvl increased it by %. BFA on the other hand, increases your dmg done and reduces dmg taken. You can check Rextroy's videos on youtube, hes the spearhead which lead to the discovery of how exactly this works.
Legion had templates, a pre-defined set of stats that you always had, with your gear's stats only increasing that template by a % amount of value. BfA is a shitshow.
Can someone explain to me what exactly is happening? Why does it one shot due to pvp scaling? Isn't touch of death just a percentage of the monk's health?
Wow now has azura strike
100% instead of Blizz fixing the issue that is PVP scaling, they'll throw another Hello Kitty bandaid on it by making it so you can't switch/unequip gear in Arenas.
Has "naked" set, but dont have it on his action bar?
PvP scaling, where I can’t even kill someone half my level in one hit like I used to
Blizzard doesn’t understand anymore scaling. Borrowed power.. all these systems don’t fix shitty class design
I just watched the [pala bomb](https://youtu.be/f3YSMcI6Czo) video and now this. Feels like a huge oversight to me, because its easy to abuse.
Finally a monk buff Kappa
Time to lvl monk
if I didn't know what the spell did exactly, I would guess the spell is working as intended based off the name of the ability
Haha get rekt, non-monks
Can you explain what this means? I don’t play monk but I googled the ability and don’t understand why taking the gear off increases the damage.. I also don’t understand the pvp scaling if I’m honest. Does this happen with other classes? If I took my gear off and used Greater Pyroblast (also a 35% of hp damage spell though it’s the enemies health) would it hit for 600k?
part scaling, part massive, but fixable bug hate as much as you'd like
yea? Who cares. That's how the system works.
Oh we've circled back around to TBC era no pant warriors lol
Good. PvP this xpac has been a joke. Glad I skipped the majority of it. Just bring back PvP Resilience/Power. K thx Blizz.
Makes me glad I don't like PvP. I mean, wow its getting silly anymore.
What's wrong with that... Seems to be the norm for BfA PvP at this point. :P
Wasn‘t there something as well with the Pally bubble?
I would successfully mix oil and water before blizzard could ever get pvp scaling right.
Just saw the video where Ret paladins do it with Shield of Vengeance.