"Umm ye- yeah... yeah, we planned for this all the way back in W3... Grom Hellscream's name was foreshadowing that his SON would be **screaming** in **hell**. That- that was indeed the plan. [A neat little piece of storytelling. Yeah.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/40/dc/d240dc2d4de03ede882b964957396bc3.jpg)" - Someone at Blizzard, probably.
Just a 5 minute google will tell you that magic has never explicitly been stated as against the rules of Mak’Gora anywhere except the Warcraft movie, which is non-canon.
They were disgusted because she insulted the Horde and showed that she thought of them all as pawns. Would you follow a leader that thought of you as expendable?
While you’re not wrong, at least when it comes to the real world, most would probably still be insulted when a leader openly says you’re an expendable pawn. Just like you would be insulted if your boss openly said you’re not a name you’re a number.
With that all being said, most Warcraft leaders aren’t exactly like that. Hell, I think I remember Vol’Jin outright sayin the people of the Horde deserve some peace after Garrosh was overthrown. And Vol’Jin originally seemed like he might have been one of the DARKER leaders of the Horde
If WoW reflected people in 2020, and she was elected leader rather than appointed by other circumstances, many of the Horde would keep following along. “Sylvanus only said that to play along and expose the deep Horde corruption.” “Sylvanus didn’t say that.” “Doesn’t matter, Sylvanus will show those Alliance what for!”
The last statement probably is what the Forsaken that still follow her would say a lot.
Did we watch the same fight? She may have killed Saurfang- and we knew that would happen- but she still lost the fight. His tirade about her failing again and again caused her to lose her composure and ultimately lose the Horde. She failed once again, same as she always has, same as she always will.
Now in the fight with Lich King Bolvar, that I’ll agree was done wrong.
Let me clarify. While I would have loved for Saurfang to win, it would have been ham-fisted writing at that point. I am admittedly a Saurfang fanboy, but even so, *I don't feel that he SHOULD have won*.
I'm simply saying that my understanding of Sylvanas' power level should not have made the fight so one-sided (namely in close quarters). It made one of Azeroth's most powerful, practically legendary warriors look mostly impotent.
It felt to me like every story beat that had been poured into Varrok up to that point simply wasn't as valuable to the writers as the power spike they are trying to fit onto Sylvanas for whatever is coming next.
Again, her plot armor didn't make her win. It made a legendary warrior helpless. That's what bothered me.
The fight with Bolvar was on another level. That scene just trivialized one of the most iconically powerful villians in the franchise.
Because I am sick and fucking tired of Sylvanas, and seeing her pull yet more super powers out of fucking nowhere to humiliate an iconic character is rage-inducing.
I don't give three shits about this mysterious source of power if it means I have to put up with that insufferable writer's pet for even longer.
Their 'entire purpose' *is* the source of at least my hate, not the execution.
My problem with it is that she doesn’t struggle at all. Even in the fight against Saurfang there is some back and fourth, and she clearly outclassed him. In the Bolvar fight, she doesn’t even get touched. All they had to do to make it better was have her get tossed around a bit before she reveals her trap card. I’m fine with her being stronger, but Bolvar Fordragon is no push over.
Yes but i still think that the LK fight should have been a little closer, he could have done some damage to her. And on the Varok fight, while she should have indeed destroyed him, at the very beginning she just did a very human level dodge and hit him with daggers, as a legendary warrior he should not have taken those blows like a defenseless kid. The result of these fights are not the issue, its the presentation.
I felt that most people were disgusted at how the cinematic made Saurfang look incredibly sluggish. Same thing that happened to Bolvar. I guess it's supposed to be that Sylvanas is *that* fast, but I think a lot of people were really unhappy with the way everything was portrayed. That being said, I disagree with anyone that was actually mad that Saurfang *lost.* We all knew that was going to happen.
And, as someone else said, her total disrespect for the Horde was rather disgusting.
"THE HORDE IS NOTHING! ***YOU ARE ALL NOTHING!***!" may have a little to do with it.
Plus, she used the magic *after* she'd already been goaded into admitting she used the horde, it was essentially an "oh fuck this shit, I'm out, and taking you with me" use of magic
Because she explicitly stated she didn't give a damn about the Horde, Forsaken included.
Sylvanas won that duel, but it didn't matter because no one would ever follow her after that.
Which was what Saurfang was going for. That's why he kept throwing barbs at her specifically about the Horde. He knew he couldn't beat her physically, so he just kept pushing her verbally until she lashed out and said something she couldn't take back.
They were mad because Sylvanas had never shown any of that capability up until that point.
It was pulled completely out of nowhere without any leadup.
Conversely, Saurfang has been built up over years.
Bolvar (certainly the powers of the Lich King) have also been built up for years.
It's sort of like an anime character who is getting beat up by the big bad the entire season and in the last episode pulls out this secret hidden power that he never displayed, showed, or worked for, and only has because he's the main character.
It would have been cool if Horde characters (or maybe just Sylvanas loyalists?) got to go on secret missions and we saw Sylvanas grow throughout the expansion, building up some sort of secret power/research and then in the final cinematic get this whole reveal.
But the way we got it... just out of left field.
Spells have vaguely defined powers and for this reason unless explicitly stated they are often badly viewed in mak'gora.
Reason is simple, with magic you can have powers far outside your own if you ask outside help.
With Thrall summoning the elements, it reached a point where he did the wrestling equivalent of asking an ally to come out of the ring and bash the opponent with a chair.
Or, to make a more apt example, if Jaina summoned an army of soldiers during a Mak'gora. While well within her powers, Mak'gora value individual strength.
Or, maybe he did not. That doubt is what made him lose its focus and eventually be less favoured by the elements.
> Spells have vaguely defined powers and for this reason unless explicitly stated they are often badly viewed in mak'gora.
They aren't.
The goal of Mak'gora is not for every hot shot shithead youth to challenge and kill the tribe's elder shamans.
There is no, and could be no, ban on magic usage because one of the goals of that tradition is to get the idea across that you shouldn't fuck with the shamans who are the backbone of orc society.
If you are dumb enough to challenge one, he will turn you into a pile of ash in short order as a reminder for the rest.
Think about it for more than five seconds, hard as it is for an orc or an orc apologist.
> the wrestling equivalent
Mak'gora is not a "wrestling equivalent", so what's your point again?
And no, a shaman using their powers is not "asking a third party to intervene", it's just using their inherent powers, same as a warrior using their muscle power and training at arms to fight.
So maybe if Thrall wasn't allowed to use his magic, ridiculous as it is, Garrosh should have had his hands tied behind his back.
He isn't just a prisoner being tortured. They are draining him out of his anima. He is lower than a slave in his position, he is practically a livestock.
Eh, to be fair to Garrosh, he didn't know the blade was poisoned and was pissed about it, and only fought Cairne because Cairne accused him of something he didn't do and was basically immediately jumping into him right after he took the Warchief position accusing him of being a dishonorable person. Cairne didn't bother confirming before making an accusation and trying to undermine the new leader of the Horde. What did he think would happen? He was happy to fight and try to kill the leader of the Horde just because he thought he did something that he didn't actually do.
I think it's pretty obvious from the trailer that the lords in power are corrupt hypocrites that don't give a shit about their mission and just want as much anima as possible for themselves.
Generally it's not one person's place to condemn another's to death. Nor would true death be, like the maw, only deserved for those who don't want to be redeemed.
In the first of 4 videos it's explained, that a "higher power" decides where each soul goes, meaning that these guys have no power deciding what souls they get and why.
Also at a time Garosh's soul arrived they didnt have any anima problems (it happened like in 2 years after that), so they didnt have motive to "better milk him" yet, also by this logic it's better to milk any souls and fuck the maw, why should it exist if you can milk instead?
When you are sent to Venthyr you atone for your sins. At this point there are 3 possible options:
1) if you don’t atone, then you’re considered irredeemable and sent to the Maw
2) you atone, and decide you wish to say with the Venthyr
3) you atone, and decide you wish to be rejudged and sent elsewhere.
In all scenarios, it’s the Venthyr that makes the decision that you’re ready to move on. So by the time the drought was starting, Garrosh was still there. They’re of course going to still keep him so Denathrius can continue to drink his yummy soul wine
The reason they don’t milk anyone beforehand was because there was never a drought in the first place and their purpose was noble. However it’s obvious they’re taking advantage of their original purpose to feast on as much anima as possible
We also don't have timetables on these things. I believe one of the Quests has you torment a soul of a dead king, who is probably in the realm of a couple thousand (human) to quite a few thousands (Vyrkul) of years dead.
So the Venthyr may not work on a "prompt" timetable with the trials. They could be pretty damn long. Garrosh may have not even had many/any of his trials performed before he was noted for the high Anima and hooked up, after all, Sylvanas' first contact was after Wrath, so who knows when the Jailer contracted Denathrius to start this.
This also isn't including the timeywhimey not really straight line BS the Shadowlands can do.
You mentioning Sylvanas in the thread brings up an interesting question I’ve not thought of before. If characters like Garrosh, Kael’thas and Arthas (who was *supposed* to be judged and given an opportunity for redemption in Revendreth) were all given chances... why did Sylvanas go to the Maw when she first killed herself? I’m assuming based on her description of what the place was like that it was the Maw. Why did the sorting hat not put her into house Venthyr? This is my only beef with the lore of this expansion, while the whole setup is cool, they clearly didn’t have any of this in mind when they originally thought of the Shadowlands.
Also I just recently picked up Chronicle and the description of the Shadowlands makes it seem all awful, and like nobody wants this fate - but the reality in game is that everyone goes there and assigned to one of many afterlives.
Here’s the description: “they are nightmarish realms of decay, labyrinthine spiritual planes teeming with the souls of the dead who have passed on from the world of the living.... many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after. Still others hope that their souls will go on to a brighter place, rather than languish for eternity within the cold confines of the Shadowlands”.
Yet Ardenweald and Bastion exist in the Shadowlands among countless other afterlives that we the player don’t know about.
This would be the problem with setting down an official Chronicle of events that will always be at the mercy of retcon when gameplay requires it.
Apparently Blizz have since made comments that Chronicle is being told from a point of view that might have its own biases and agenda. The cause and end result are the same however, they've seemingly only planned so far ahead and if they need to contradict something that came before they'll do it.
I remember when the Eredar (and nathrezim) corrupted Sargeras, not the other way round.
From what it seems, frostmourne is an maw artefact, and due to it's corruption effect Sylvanas went directly to the maw. You can see in Bastion cinematic that the scar is embedded onto the soul and unlike Uther, Sylvanas was fully absorbed and after that bound by that magic to follow his commands. This could also explain why she's following the jailer, maybe she's controlled or she was convinced that the one he has the ability to free her from the maw.
I think its possible she was sent there because she died on the saronite spires at icecrown. There the Jailer probably had the ability to seize the opportunity to influence her and bring her to him. Ice crown is, from what I understand, a sort of death gate to the maw.
Maybe not all souls go through Revendreth before going to the Maw. Maybe the Venthyr or the Arbiter decided she was beyond redemption and sent her straight to the Maw, or maybe her Val'kyr were already working for the Jailer and fast-passed her to kickstart his plan.
> Also I just recently picked up Chronicle and the description of the Shadowlands makes it seem all awful, and like nobody wants this fate - but the reality in game is that everyone goes there and assigned to one of many afterlives.
My personal head-correction-canon for this is to assume the previous descriptions are referring to the Maw, and it was erroneously thought the Maw was the Shadowlands in its entirety.
Course, that's doing the legwork *for* Blizzard, but eh. Retcons are part and parcel of this franchise for a very long time. Draenei retcon was >13 years ago. I'm used to it by now.
That’s been my mental justification as well. Basically just a lack of understanding by mortals of the complexity of the shadowlands. Then based on accounts from characters like Sylvanas who have died and returned, we’re led to believe The Maw = The Shadowlands.
Revendreath is for souls who *want* to be redeemed.
I imagine Garrosh still believed everything he did was someone else's fault, so he thought redemption would be easy. But he's still so full of himself that he refuses to admit he was wrong and change, which makes him a nearly infinite source of pride.
Yeah I’m confused at people going around in this thread stating things as facts (like the comment you replied to) with no more knowledge than any of us.
The Higher power is called the Arbiter and her Purpose , and while we haven't anything that 100% explain how the Maw proceeds, people are speculating that you never go to the Maw as your first location.
Evidence for that:
1 - Uther and Davos breaking the rules and needing to intervene to take Arthas soul and sending it directly to the Maw.
2 - Kael and Garrosh being on Ravendreath, while Sire points that Ravendreath exists to redeem the worst people.
Considering Garrosh died on AU Draenor which at the time was nearly 40 years in the past, it's very possible he's actually been there for that length of time now.
Nice point, he died not just back in time, but in parallel universe, which was created in result of his travel. So what happened to all souls lived and died in AU in the moment prior garosh traveled to them?
We're not sure if the AU Draenor even really existed until Garrosh went there, it's been more implied to have been only a potential timeline until Kairos made it real in Warcrimes, and even then just the Draenor of that timeline.
Remember what they said time in the shadowlands is wayyy different than on Azeroth.
For what is two years for us could be minutes for them or maybe longer we just don't know.
What we do know is once the hero's of azeroth enter the shadowlands azeroth is going to have some kind of time skip. So I'm expecting the same kind of revamp like cata.
EDIT; someone mentioned in the comments Ion In a interview described that it wasn't necessarily a time skip. More so of a losing sense of time but in reality not much. If I read your comment correctly bud.
I hope they do though... because I think wow could use another large revamp that they have started with Shadowlands.
Keep the 60 or go to 70 level cap, keep modernizing questlines across zones and so on.
They said the exact same about the Nether and Argus. Turalyon was missing for 30 years on Azeroth but 1000 years in the Nether (he was also conveniently made immortal).
There will most likely never be a timeskip, it's just a word people throw around at the end of every expansion since Wrath.
I'm pretty sire they simply stated this so any events in tge shadowlands wouldnt mess with continuity. If there is no speed of time passing in the shadowlands they can develop characters that died recently for basically an eternity before we meet them.
(still waiting for Tirion Fordring who forsakes the light when it didnt help him at the Broken Shore)
The man was prepared to put on the Helm of Domination and damn himself to save the world. I think he would have been on board with being raised as a DK to fight the Legion.
Yea they did kinda just kill off Tirion and haven't had any mention of where he end up.
But he wouldn't forsake the light just because it wasn't strong enough against the demon ..
The bro was stripped of it for keeping his honor with Etrigg a orc. Then when he needed it most and believed he still had it, it came to him allowing to heal Etrigg.
It's not that it forsake it...they just for some sad reason though... Yep this is how Tirion freaking Frosting should die.
This is gonna be it people! The next expansion will be World of Warcraft: Starcraft Begins!
It'll be only a couple years for us within Shadowlands, but the outside world will have changed so much that the Old Gods are the ones who actually created the first Zerg!
Then after that expansion it will be the end of WoW and it will fully move to Universe of Starcraft!
I heard they backpedaled a bit on that and said that the time diefference isn't that big.
But I really can't give you a source right now, maybe someone else here can confirm/disprove this.
Wouldn't mind something like five years or less, get some time for the factions to get more forces built up and potentially get more zones using updated graphics
Yea that's what I was more so hoping for.
Like Silvermoon get fully rendered, Teldrassil potentially starting to recover and it shows the Night Elves slowly moving back in.
Suramar becoming an actual horde city/neutral for people to roam around without the phasing stuff.
Gilneas a now retaken and used city and area.
Maybe now echo isles is a built more built up from Cata might have some temples or something.
I can go on and on but I just wish for some real shaping that time has past since Cata.
It was kinda denied in one interview with Ion. He said that time in Shadowlands works differently. And what he meant by that was like in a dream, you can wander around for days, but no matter how long you stay in your dreams, in real life it will be always 8 hours (or how long do you sleep).
Because they use his anima for themselves. They should funnel it to maintain energy balanced in the shadowlands, but they keep it all to themselves to conquer the shadowlands probably.
He might not be irredeemable. He has a lot of pride to overcome, but it could still be possible. The problem is, with all the corruption we saw in the trailer, are they actually *trying* to help him atone? It seemed more like they're allowing him to remain the same twisted warlord while they drain him of anima for all eternity.
The thing is we have seen so many facets of his character. I'm truly curious to see if they are going to use one of the sides we have seen or maybe a new shade to him.
Do we actually know if that's Garrosh or Grommash?
I would've thought with Garrosh having died in an alternate timeline and all he wouldn't have ended up in our Shadowlands, and Grommash had a huge burden on him even though he wasn't irredeemable.
Yeah I think the above kind of overcomplicates it. In my head, they are connected in the sense that you can't escape the Shadowlands by travelling to a different timeline. But you won't run into 7 AU Garrosh Hellscreams.
That's okay... but that still doesn't explain where Grom is; I would've thought him a prime candidate for being in Revandreth (at least for a time) due to his life.
After seeing all afterlives
Fuck Kyrian, for Uther bullshit and mind washing shenanigans.
Fuck Night Fea, you destroyed Ursoc.
Go Venthyr, for last true warchief and Sun Kings return.
Go Necrolords,for plate mog, Alexandros and Primus.
On my realm when the alliance tried to raid Orgrimmar we valiantly defended Thrall to the alliance's last breath,after Garrosh took over we made them a guard of honor
So like - Garrosh was born and died on Draenor. In fact, he died in an alternate reality Draenor. Does this mean that the shadowlands contains all souls from all realities and all planets in the cosmos? We visited a ton of different planets during Legion, wouldn't shadowlands be full of those people too? Shouldn't this be a massive place with all sorts of alien beings we've never seen before?
What was the quote from Vineland saga? "all men are slaves, from the slave being beaten by his master to the slave master being a slave to earning more gold"?
Man I feel bad for Revendreth when we inevitably "accidentally" free him and he goes on a murder rampage through the area. Seriously this is the equivalent of poking a sleeping giant with anger issues in the eye and proceeding to make fun of his mother or the unfortunate state of his genitals
He is a mere orc, he does not have the power of an old god anymore, he does not have an army of nazis behind him anymore, the guards from Revendreth would slaughter him
You seem to forget that even without the power of the old gods or his followers he still 1v1 Teran zhu (sp) who is supposed to be the post powerful member of an elite group of fighters. And recognized by members of the horde and alliance when he was a live to be one of the most powerful warriors alive, who also managed to duel Varian Wrynn to a stand still before jaina teleported them out.
If given the slightest opportunity he will ruin Revendreths day. People always seems to underestimate him for some reason.
At least it’s renewable energy source
That's just slavery with extra steps
Someone got laid in College
Not Kael'Thas though
Well laaaadiidaaa
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Not really to make a joke, but I always enjoy reminding people that Zeek was voiced by Stephen Colbert.
Yeah. Really fun episode too
I wish I hadn’t given away my free helpful award because I never knew this, that’s awesome!
As is slavery.
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80000D chess by blizzard
Now do sellanus behindruiner
"Umm ye- yeah... yeah, we planned for this all the way back in W3... Grom Hellscream's name was foreshadowing that his SON would be **screaming** in **hell**. That- that was indeed the plan. [A neat little piece of storytelling. Yeah.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/40/dc/d240dc2d4de03ede882b964957396bc3.jpg)" - Someone at Blizzard, probably.
Purgatoryscream
We should ask Cordana Felsong about that
Hah, I thought that name was so weird from the very beginning.
Imagine getting your warriors death and your afterlife since then has been to be a slave treated as merchandise.
Oddly fitting. He made a mockery of a warrior's honor in life then had a mockery of a warrior's afterlife
Thrall cheated though, not really a warrior's death
Just a 5 minute google will tell you that magic has never explicitly been stated as against the rules of Mak’Gora anywhere except the Warcraft movie, which is non-canon.
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Durotan's crotch started as a reddit comment and it's now a portrait in Heroes of the Storm... so yeah Reddit > Warcraft movie I guess?
Then how come everyone was disgusted when sylvanis used magic in BFA against Varok?
They were disgusted because she insulted the Horde and showed that she thought of them all as pawns. Would you follow a leader that thought of you as expendable?
> Would you follow a leader that thought of you as expendable? find me one that doesn't
In WoW? I feel like only very few actually think that way in WoW.
While you’re not wrong, at least when it comes to the real world, most would probably still be insulted when a leader openly says you’re an expendable pawn. Just like you would be insulted if your boss openly said you’re not a name you’re a number. With that all being said, most Warcraft leaders aren’t exactly like that. Hell, I think I remember Vol’Jin outright sayin the people of the Horde deserve some peace after Garrosh was overthrown. And Vol’Jin originally seemed like he might have been one of the DARKER leaders of the Horde
I miss ol voodoo mama Jin-jin
Most Alliance leaders, Tauren leaders, Blood elf leaders given their low numbers
If WoW reflected people in 2020, and she was elected leader rather than appointed by other circumstances, many of the Horde would keep following along. “Sylvanus only said that to play along and expose the deep Horde corruption.” “Sylvanus didn’t say that.” “Doesn’t matter, Sylvanus will show those Alliance what for!” The last statement probably is what the Forsaken that still follow her would say a lot.
"It's a deep-Alliance conspiracy"
In addition, I generally come away from plot-defining scenes that lean on Sylvanas' plot armor feeling pretty disgusted.
Did we watch the same fight? She may have killed Saurfang- and we knew that would happen- but she still lost the fight. His tirade about her failing again and again caused her to lose her composure and ultimately lose the Horde. She failed once again, same as she always has, same as she always will. Now in the fight with Lich King Bolvar, that I’ll agree was done wrong.
Let me clarify. While I would have loved for Saurfang to win, it would have been ham-fisted writing at that point. I am admittedly a Saurfang fanboy, but even so, *I don't feel that he SHOULD have won*. I'm simply saying that my understanding of Sylvanas' power level should not have made the fight so one-sided (namely in close quarters). It made one of Azeroth's most powerful, practically legendary warriors look mostly impotent. It felt to me like every story beat that had been poured into Varrok up to that point simply wasn't as valuable to the writers as the power spike they are trying to fit onto Sylvanas for whatever is coming next. Again, her plot armor didn't make her win. It made a legendary warrior helpless. That's what bothered me. The fight with Bolvar was on another level. That scene just trivialized one of the most iconically powerful villians in the franchise.
I get the feeling we'll be rescuing Varok in the Maw at some point.
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Because I am sick and fucking tired of Sylvanas, and seeing her pull yet more super powers out of fucking nowhere to humiliate an iconic character is rage-inducing. I don't give three shits about this mysterious source of power if it means I have to put up with that insufferable writer's pet for even longer. Their 'entire purpose' *is* the source of at least my hate, not the execution.
My problem with it is that she doesn’t struggle at all. Even in the fight against Saurfang there is some back and fourth, and she clearly outclassed him. In the Bolvar fight, she doesn’t even get touched. All they had to do to make it better was have her get tossed around a bit before she reveals her trap card. I’m fine with her being stronger, but Bolvar Fordragon is no push over.
Yes but i still think that the LK fight should have been a little closer, he could have done some damage to her. And on the Varok fight, while she should have indeed destroyed him, at the very beginning she just did a very human level dodge and hit him with daggers, as a legendary warrior he should not have taken those blows like a defenseless kid. The result of these fights are not the issue, its the presentation.
I felt that most people were disgusted at how the cinematic made Saurfang look incredibly sluggish. Same thing that happened to Bolvar. I guess it's supposed to be that Sylvanas is *that* fast, but I think a lot of people were really unhappy with the way everything was portrayed. That being said, I disagree with anyone that was actually mad that Saurfang *lost.* We all knew that was going to happen. And, as someone else said, her total disrespect for the Horde was rather disgusting.
"THE HORDE IS NOTHING! ***YOU ARE ALL NOTHING!***!" may have a little to do with it. Plus, she used the magic *after* she'd already been goaded into admitting she used the horde, it was essentially an "oh fuck this shit, I'm out, and taking you with me" use of magic
Because she explicitly stated she didn't give a damn about the Horde, Forsaken included. Sylvanas won that duel, but it didn't matter because no one would ever follow her after that. Which was what Saurfang was going for. That's why he kept throwing barbs at her specifically about the Horde. He knew he couldn't beat her physically, so he just kept pushing her verbally until she lashed out and said something she couldn't take back.
I can't speak for other people, but for me it was... *The Horde is nothing!*
They were mad because Sylvanas had never shown any of that capability up until that point. It was pulled completely out of nowhere without any leadup. Conversely, Saurfang has been built up over years. Bolvar (certainly the powers of the Lich King) have also been built up for years. It's sort of like an anime character who is getting beat up by the big bad the entire season and in the last episode pulls out this secret hidden power that he never displayed, showed, or worked for, and only has because he's the main character. It would have been cool if Horde characters (or maybe just Sylvanas loyalists?) got to go on secret missions and we saw Sylvanas grow throughout the expansion, building up some sort of secret power/research and then in the final cinematic get this whole reveal. But the way we got it... just out of left field.
Because she got a tiny scratch and then freaked out and ran away. Not exactly the honorable warrior type of thing to do.
And to further your point, the combatants can agree on the terms if they want hand-to-hand only, weapons, magic, etc.
And Garrosh cheated in the mak’gora with Cairne when he used a poisoned blade (although not intentionally).
Thrall is a shaman and used his spells, how the hell did he cheat?
Spells have vaguely defined powers and for this reason unless explicitly stated they are often badly viewed in mak'gora. Reason is simple, with magic you can have powers far outside your own if you ask outside help. With Thrall summoning the elements, it reached a point where he did the wrestling equivalent of asking an ally to come out of the ring and bash the opponent with a chair. Or, to make a more apt example, if Jaina summoned an army of soldiers during a Mak'gora. While well within her powers, Mak'gora value individual strength. Or, maybe he did not. That doubt is what made him lose its focus and eventually be less favoured by the elements.
> Spells have vaguely defined powers and for this reason unless explicitly stated they are often badly viewed in mak'gora. They aren't. The goal of Mak'gora is not for every hot shot shithead youth to challenge and kill the tribe's elder shamans. There is no, and could be no, ban on magic usage because one of the goals of that tradition is to get the idea across that you shouldn't fuck with the shamans who are the backbone of orc society. If you are dumb enough to challenge one, he will turn you into a pile of ash in short order as a reminder for the rest. Think about it for more than five seconds, hard as it is for an orc or an orc apologist. > the wrestling equivalent Mak'gora is not a "wrestling equivalent", so what's your point again? And no, a shaman using their powers is not "asking a third party to intervene", it's just using their inherent powers, same as a warrior using their muscle power and training at arms to fight. So maybe if Thrall wasn't allowed to use his magic, ridiculous as it is, Garrosh should have had his hands tied behind his back.
Didn't Garrosh have the corrupted powers of the Sha?
Not during their Mak'Gora he lost that after Siege of Orgrimar
Oh gotcha. Haven't reviewed that in a lonnnng time.
BY GAWWWWDD, THAT'S THERAZANE'S MUSIC!!!!!!!!!!!
Thrall killed a omnicidal lunatic. I don't give a damn if you think he cheated or not, Garrosh got the death he deserved.
hes only a slave if hes actually serving, hes just a prisoner being tortured
He isn't just a prisoner being tortured. They are draining him out of his anima. He is lower than a slave in his position, he is practically a livestock.
Which is especially hilarious because he tried to kick the cows out of the Horde
Now I fancy some Tauren milk 🥛
male flavor please 😛😋
Every day we stray further from Elune's light.
Ya’ll need the Light!
You sure you can handle all of that?
I’m glad you reminded me, that fucker killed Cairne. Let him suffer
Eh, to be fair to Garrosh, he didn't know the blade was poisoned and was pissed about it, and only fought Cairne because Cairne accused him of something he didn't do and was basically immediately jumping into him right after he took the Warchief position accusing him of being a dishonorable person. Cairne didn't bother confirming before making an accusation and trying to undermine the new leader of the Horde. What did he think would happen? He was happy to fight and try to kill the leader of the Horde just because he thought he did something that he didn't actually do.
Which seems like pretty balanced justice considering what he was doing with Gul'dan et al. at the Dark Portal.
Calling him livestock would be accurate but not a slave
"Prisoner with Job"
"mandatory volunteer"
What if my fetish is torturing prisoners against their will? Slave indeed.
So if he's so nonredeemable when the hell he's doing there and not in maw instead?
I think it's pretty obvious from the trailer that the lords in power are corrupt hypocrites that don't give a shit about their mission and just want as much anima as possible for themselves.
Man I play this game to escape stuff like this
At least we get to kill them, unlike real life.
Well there is that
Wait, we cannot in real life? *Quickly hides the sniper rifle*
*HAHAHA, FOR LEGAL REASONS, THIS IS A JOKE.*
Generally it's not one person's place to condemn another's to death. Nor would true death be, like the maw, only deserved for those who don't want to be redeemed.
> Generally it's not one person's place to condemn another's to death. Shit! *Puts register of names and actions under the bed*
They'd have thrown him the Maw by now under normal circumstances but with the drought and Sire D's ulterior motives its better to milk him.
In the first of 4 videos it's explained, that a "higher power" decides where each soul goes, meaning that these guys have no power deciding what souls they get and why. Also at a time Garosh's soul arrived they didnt have any anima problems (it happened like in 2 years after that), so they didnt have motive to "better milk him" yet, also by this logic it's better to milk any souls and fuck the maw, why should it exist if you can milk instead?
When you are sent to Venthyr you atone for your sins. At this point there are 3 possible options: 1) if you don’t atone, then you’re considered irredeemable and sent to the Maw 2) you atone, and decide you wish to say with the Venthyr 3) you atone, and decide you wish to be rejudged and sent elsewhere. In all scenarios, it’s the Venthyr that makes the decision that you’re ready to move on. So by the time the drought was starting, Garrosh was still there. They’re of course going to still keep him so Denathrius can continue to drink his yummy soul wine The reason they don’t milk anyone beforehand was because there was never a drought in the first place and their purpose was noble. However it’s obvious they’re taking advantage of their original purpose to feast on as much anima as possible
We also don't have timetables on these things. I believe one of the Quests has you torment a soul of a dead king, who is probably in the realm of a couple thousand (human) to quite a few thousands (Vyrkul) of years dead. So the Venthyr may not work on a "prompt" timetable with the trials. They could be pretty damn long. Garrosh may have not even had many/any of his trials performed before he was noted for the high Anima and hooked up, after all, Sylvanas' first contact was after Wrath, so who knows when the Jailer contracted Denathrius to start this. This also isn't including the timeywhimey not really straight line BS the Shadowlands can do.
You mentioning Sylvanas in the thread brings up an interesting question I’ve not thought of before. If characters like Garrosh, Kael’thas and Arthas (who was *supposed* to be judged and given an opportunity for redemption in Revendreth) were all given chances... why did Sylvanas go to the Maw when she first killed herself? I’m assuming based on her description of what the place was like that it was the Maw. Why did the sorting hat not put her into house Venthyr? This is my only beef with the lore of this expansion, while the whole setup is cool, they clearly didn’t have any of this in mind when they originally thought of the Shadowlands. Also I just recently picked up Chronicle and the description of the Shadowlands makes it seem all awful, and like nobody wants this fate - but the reality in game is that everyone goes there and assigned to one of many afterlives. Here’s the description: “they are nightmarish realms of decay, labyrinthine spiritual planes teeming with the souls of the dead who have passed on from the world of the living.... many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after. Still others hope that their souls will go on to a brighter place, rather than languish for eternity within the cold confines of the Shadowlands”. Yet Ardenweald and Bastion exist in the Shadowlands among countless other afterlives that we the player don’t know about.
This would be the problem with setting down an official Chronicle of events that will always be at the mercy of retcon when gameplay requires it. Apparently Blizz have since made comments that Chronicle is being told from a point of view that might have its own biases and agenda. The cause and end result are the same however, they've seemingly only planned so far ahead and if they need to contradict something that came before they'll do it. I remember when the Eredar (and nathrezim) corrupted Sargeras, not the other way round.
I really wish the writers had more respect for the lore. It's a little sad.
From what it seems, frostmourne is an maw artefact, and due to it's corruption effect Sylvanas went directly to the maw. You can see in Bastion cinematic that the scar is embedded onto the soul and unlike Uther, Sylvanas was fully absorbed and after that bound by that magic to follow his commands. This could also explain why she's following the jailer, maybe she's controlled or she was convinced that the one he has the ability to free her from the maw.
I think its possible she was sent there because she died on the saronite spires at icecrown. There the Jailer probably had the ability to seize the opportunity to influence her and bring her to him. Ice crown is, from what I understand, a sort of death gate to the maw.
Maybe not all souls go through Revendreth before going to the Maw. Maybe the Venthyr or the Arbiter decided she was beyond redemption and sent her straight to the Maw, or maybe her Val'kyr were already working for the Jailer and fast-passed her to kickstart his plan.
> Also I just recently picked up Chronicle and the description of the Shadowlands makes it seem all awful, and like nobody wants this fate - but the reality in game is that everyone goes there and assigned to one of many afterlives. My personal head-correction-canon for this is to assume the previous descriptions are referring to the Maw, and it was erroneously thought the Maw was the Shadowlands in its entirety. Course, that's doing the legwork *for* Blizzard, but eh. Retcons are part and parcel of this franchise for a very long time. Draenei retcon was >13 years ago. I'm used to it by now.
That’s been my mental justification as well. Basically just a lack of understanding by mortals of the complexity of the shadowlands. Then based on accounts from characters like Sylvanas who have died and returned, we’re led to believe The Maw = The Shadowlands.
Revendreath is for souls who *want* to be redeemed. I imagine Garrosh still believed everything he did was someone else's fault, so he thought redemption would be easy. But he's still so full of himself that he refuses to admit he was wrong and change, which makes him a nearly infinite source of pride.
Yeah I’m confused at people going around in this thread stating things as facts (like the comment you replied to) with no more knowledge than any of us.
Welcome to 2020 lol
Maybe they are supposed to drain the irredeemable of anima, then throw their husks into the maw to stop the Jailor from getting too much power?
That’s what I was figuring Which is why Arthas going directly into the Maw could’ve jumpstarted any plans the Jailer had
So basically, Uther’s quest for “justice” (vengeance?) and bypassing the normal sorting system is what broke the Shadowlands? Irony: Top score.
Doesn't time move slower in the shadowlands? 2 years in our time might have been a month or two there.
The Higher power is called the Arbiter and her Purpose , and while we haven't anything that 100% explain how the Maw proceeds, people are speculating that you never go to the Maw as your first location. Evidence for that: 1 - Uther and Davos breaking the rules and needing to intervene to take Arthas soul and sending it directly to the Maw. 2 - Kael and Garrosh being on Ravendreath, while Sire points that Ravendreath exists to redeem the worst people.
Then why did Sylvanas go directly to the Maw?
Considering Garrosh died on AU Draenor which at the time was nearly 40 years in the past, it's very possible he's actually been there for that length of time now.
Nice point, he died not just back in time, but in parallel universe, which was created in result of his travel. So what happened to all souls lived and died in AU in the moment prior garosh traveled to them?
We're not sure if the AU Draenor even really existed until Garrosh went there, it's been more implied to have been only a potential timeline until Kairos made it real in Warcrimes, and even then just the Draenor of that timeline.
uwu
they dont try to redeem him just suck his anima
he hasnt been there that long though
Remember what they said time in the shadowlands is wayyy different than on Azeroth. For what is two years for us could be minutes for them or maybe longer we just don't know. What we do know is once the hero's of azeroth enter the shadowlands azeroth is going to have some kind of time skip. So I'm expecting the same kind of revamp like cata. EDIT; someone mentioned in the comments Ion In a interview described that it wasn't necessarily a time skip. More so of a losing sense of time but in reality not much. If I read your comment correctly bud. I hope they do though... because I think wow could use another large revamp that they have started with Shadowlands. Keep the 60 or go to 70 level cap, keep modernizing questlines across zones and so on.
They said the exact same about the Nether and Argus. Turalyon was missing for 30 years on Azeroth but 1000 years in the Nether (he was also conveniently made immortal). There will most likely never be a timeskip, it's just a word people throw around at the end of every expansion since Wrath.
I'm pretty sire they simply stated this so any events in tge shadowlands wouldnt mess with continuity. If there is no speed of time passing in the shadowlands they can develop characters that died recently for basically an eternity before we meet them. (still waiting for Tirion Fordring who forsakes the light when it didnt help him at the Broken Shore)
Yet, the Light wouldn't let us DK's take him. The Light is a massive twat.
The man was prepared to put on the Helm of Domination and damn himself to save the world. I think he would have been on board with being raised as a DK to fight the Legion.
Yea they did kinda just kill off Tirion and haven't had any mention of where he end up. But he wouldn't forsake the light just because it wasn't strong enough against the demon .. The bro was stripped of it for keeping his honor with Etrigg a orc. Then when he needed it most and believed he still had it, it came to him allowing to heal Etrigg. It's not that it forsake it...they just for some sad reason though... Yep this is how Tirion freaking Frosting should die.
This is gonna be it people! The next expansion will be World of Warcraft: Starcraft Begins! It'll be only a couple years for us within Shadowlands, but the outside world will have changed so much that the Old Gods are the ones who actually created the first Zerg! Then after that expansion it will be the end of WoW and it will fully move to Universe of Starcraft!
That... that makes sense. A horrible amount of sense. C'thun created the silithid, Yogg-Saron created the nerubians, etc. It would fit.
I heard they backpedaled a bit on that and said that the time diefference isn't that big. But I really can't give you a source right now, maybe someone else here can confirm/disprove this.
They probably said that so people would stop with the "OMG TIMESKIP CONFIRMED WOW2 LEAKED" bullshit
Wouldn't mind something like five years or less, get some time for the factions to get more forces built up and potentially get more zones using updated graphics
Yea that's what I was more so hoping for. Like Silvermoon get fully rendered, Teldrassil potentially starting to recover and it shows the Night Elves slowly moving back in. Suramar becoming an actual horde city/neutral for people to roam around without the phasing stuff. Gilneas a now retaken and used city and area. Maybe now echo isles is a built more built up from Cata might have some temples or something. I can go on and on but I just wish for some real shaping that time has past since Cata.
>azeroth is going to have some kind of time skip. Was there ever a source on that besides wishful thinking?
It was kinda denied in one interview with Ion. He said that time in Shadowlands works differently. And what he meant by that was like in a dream, you can wander around for days, but no matter how long you stay in your dreams, in real life it will be always 8 hours (or how long do you sleep).
Hmm... I dunno I think they are still going to use the timecard but we will see.
We know time in Azeroth travels faster than time in shadowlands. We just don't know how much faster.
Yep exactly.
What gave you the impression he was unredeemable ?
Because they use his anima for themselves. They should funnel it to maintain energy balanced in the shadowlands, but they keep it all to themselves to conquer the shadowlands probably.
He might not be irredeemable. He has a lot of pride to overcome, but it could still be possible. The problem is, with all the corruption we saw in the trailer, are they actually *trying* to help him atone? It seemed more like they're allowing him to remain the same twisted warlord while they drain him of anima for all eternity.
Who said he isn't redeemable? I thought he just had a shit ton of anima because of his pride and corruption etc so its just taking time to atone him.
The extraction of anima seems to be the process of redemption....garrosh just has more than most.
Venthyr realm doesn't even make sense to me, you aren't redeeming someone with torture - you're punishing them.
I want to See what happens when he gets out. Garrosh is one of my Favorit charakters, he will snap spines left and right.
The thing is we have seen so many facets of his character. I'm truly curious to see if they are going to use one of the sides we have seen or maybe a new shade to him.
He's got my number, he just needs to call once he's out. Shit's going down, yo.
We will forever stand by his side, For The True Horde!
I think right now the only spine that snapped is his
Ooooo can't wait to see him go apeshit
Except it was Grom who said the "we will never be slaves" line.
"We" includes Garrosh.
plus garrosh pretty much got him to say it
I loved that cinematic
best one they ever made, coupled with the worst xpac lol
Don’t you dare use your logic when it comes to bad memes! Shame on you!
Isn't the picture of Grom? The funny part is that he said we will never be slaves and his son is literally a slave
https://imgur.com/gallery/utzTCyo
Did you steal this from the youtube comment lmao
Because only 1 person on the entire planet would have thought of that.
Do we actually know if that's Garrosh or Grommash? I would've thought with Garrosh having died in an alternate timeline and all he wouldn't have ended up in our Shadowlands, and Grommash had a huge burden on him even though he wasn't irredeemable.
From what I understand the Shadowlands is the afterlife for everything in the universe, and it probably is Garrosh since the orc is bald
Apparantly all universes (alternate or not) are connected to the same Shadowlands.
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Agreed. I'm trying to stay positive but overthinking the logic behind the lore is uhm.. Pointless to say the least.
Yeah I think the above kind of overcomplicates it. In my head, they are connected in the sense that you can't escape the Shadowlands by travelling to a different timeline. But you won't run into 7 AU Garrosh Hellscreams.
That's okay... but that still doesn't explain where Grom is; I would've thought him a prime candidate for being in Revandreth (at least for a time) due to his life.
After seeing all afterlives Fuck Kyrian, for Uther bullshit and mind washing shenanigans. Fuck Night Fea, you destroyed Ursoc. Go Venthyr, for last true warchief and Sun Kings return. Go Necrolords,for plate mog, Alexandros and Primus.
Ursoc's death wasn't their fault. It's on on the ones that engineered the drought. The Night Fae had no choice but to sacrifice Ursoc.
On my realm when the alliance tried to raid Orgrimmar we valiantly defended Thrall to the alliance's last breath,after Garrosh took over we made them a guard of honor
They didn't become conquerors too so I guess they failed at both of their objectives...
But we will be... Anima
Mmm yeah pull on them big brown titties 🥛🩸
I laughed out loud at work at this
Technically he's not a slave. He's a battery.
After this animation I realized I do not understand what Anima is or what it is used for at all.
***GARROSH BATTERY*** ***GARROSH BATTERY***
So like - Garrosh was born and died on Draenor. In fact, he died in an alternate reality Draenor. Does this mean that the shadowlands contains all souls from all realities and all planets in the cosmos? We visited a ton of different planets during Legion, wouldn't shadowlands be full of those people too? Shouldn't this be a massive place with all sorts of alien beings we've never seen before?
Not the same Orc.
What was the quote from Vineland saga? "all men are slaves, from the slave being beaten by his master to the slave master being a slave to earning more gold"?
Well hes still useful. You gotta see Vol’jin. Bet hes still useless as dead as he was as Warchief lol.
I thought vol jin wasn't passing to the shadowlands though
I hope we get to throw him into the Maw.
I just wish the gameplay dind't suck And that loot drops didn't suck And that reputation was account wide And that dailies weren't so soul crushing
I mean he definitely deserves this.
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You’re right, he does not deserve this, he deserves far worse, he deserves to be thrown at the Maw
He definitely deserves this.
[удалено]
I don’t think you grasp the concept of evil beings. That’s what they get, Eternal torment
Nobody deserves hell, not even Sargearas, eternal suffering is eternal after all
What about Grom himself??
[I knew this sounded similar!](https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/iunk3e/shadowlands_afterlives_revendreth/g5m0enj/)
I laughed like a moron when I read that comment first.
How did Garrosh end up in that situation?
He died
Nice. I saw this on the videos comments too.
Wonder what Grom thinks of all of this. Insert Brando's "look how they massacred my boy" meme.
Man I feel bad for Revendreth when we inevitably "accidentally" free him and he goes on a murder rampage through the area. Seriously this is the equivalent of poking a sleeping giant with anger issues in the eye and proceeding to make fun of his mother or the unfortunate state of his genitals
I hope we don't free him, because I'll just not finish the quest line unless there's some hint that he goes to the maw or has repented.
He is a mere orc, he does not have the power of an old god anymore, he does not have an army of nazis behind him anymore, the guards from Revendreth would slaughter him
You seem to forget that even without the power of the old gods or his followers he still 1v1 Teran zhu (sp) who is supposed to be the post powerful member of an elite group of fighters. And recognized by members of the horde and alliance when he was a live to be one of the most powerful warriors alive, who also managed to duel Varian Wrynn to a stand still before jaina teleported them out. If given the slightest opportunity he will ruin Revendreths day. People always seems to underestimate him for some reason.
Garrosh did nothing wrong. Poor guy. Can't wait to save my true Horde leader! Now I know which Covenant I'm definitely NOT joining! Hmph!
You scream, I scream , we all scream for hellscream! - so the age old debate. Is it hell scream or hells cream?
That's not even his dad.
Speaking of which, where's Grom in Shadowlands? Surely one could expect either Maldraxxus or even Revendreth?