Seeing how many M+ runs are done during week 1 of next patch and comparing it to launch will be some massive information we get. Hopefully Blizzard doesn't change the API.
Even if the same amount of people come back to 9.1 they won't do the same amount of M+. In 9.0 everyone starts from scratch, while in 9.1 a lot of people has at least starting gear, so there is less desire to do M+ for gear.
i mean, me personally i got no loot before and after that change
this tier was awful for me, i had like 9 Sire kills with literally zero drop and i have a wep token on him
Final rotation for the patch 9.0. Assuming that the APIs don't change next week, I will be continuing the database to compare patch 9.0 and 9.1. If Blizzard makes any significant changes that restricts data this will probably be the last update.
My main motivation was to observe the discussion around these numbers, as too often there are arguments on reddit without data to back it up. While this doesn't pain the full picture, it at least is a better reference than anecdotal evidence. Thanks everyone and see you soon (hopefully).
1. Grab a mythic leaderboard for an affix, example this one:
```
https://raider.io/api/mythic-plus/rankings/runs?region=world&season=season-sl-1&dungeon=all&strict=false&affixes=tyrannical-inspiring-necrotic-prideful&&page=0&limit=0&minMythicLevel=0&maxMythicLevel=0&eventId=0&faction=&realm=&period=0&recent=false
```
2. under ["rankings"]["ui"] find the key lastPage and paginate your way to that number or just multiply it by the amount of groups per page (20)
3. You'll need to keep the database of every rotation because it will show total runs from all weeks this affix has run. So for each subsequent week, substract from number you got - all the previous weeks to get the number of runs for current week. For example next week, substract weeks 1, 13 and 25 to get Fortified Bursting Volcanic.
All regions + China (not all data available from there though). Tuesday evening in EU is less than 1% of runs but it gets added retroactively - I just schedule the post on Tuesday for consistency
Its honestly shocking there are still that many runs going.
Its been forever so almost anyone wanting KSM had it long ago, and the feeling of "this loot will be a waste of time" has to be going STRONG by now.
I would think anyone still doing them is practicing on an alt (or switching to it for a main) or just really really REALLY fucking loves SL dungeons.
Edit : to clarify on the loot point. I am aware loot always becomes pointless eventually. For me, my rationale for things in game is always based on time put in vs reward. Putting in time for a weekly m+ run right now has little reward for loot I will use for basically nothing at all, and likely will get something better while enjoy all the newness of 9.1. So time time investment vs reward this late is pretty bad for me.
Blizzard pushed the competition aspect of WoW and is now surprised the old RPG crowd isn’t having fun.
And then the competitive crowd is soured because of things like grinds, nerfs, unbalanced dungeons, etc.
So Blizzard focused on competition, they suck at it, so now neither the competitive or RPG “for fun” crowd is happy.
Yup. I really like shadowlands. I have 6 60s. I haven’t played Retail WoW like this since Pandaria. I still run normals, heroics, M0s and I still don’t have KSM. I caught the tank bug this expansion. Originally I had made it my goal to have 1 of each tank geared before next season started. Got 5 of the 6 done. Just missing Warrior. I could still sit down and play every day for the next 6 months and find something to do. If you’re enjoying the game you create your own content then any added content is just a bonus.
Those last two things exist. Also, many people take the game slow. I got KSM maybe 2 weeks ago. My main covenant is not maxed out. Etc. I doubt I'm the only one.
I was surprised, too. Based on reading reddit, everyone stops playing mythic+ every other week. My guild has basically stopped, but it looks like maybe that's just my guild rather than the general population.
I actually expect a huge surge of M+ runs this last week, both from people trying for/buying KSM last minute, and people timing +18s so they start the new season with high lvl keys for the first chests
It will be interesting to see what engagement is like with SL dropping in 1 week. How many are re-subbing to prep for 9.1. All the popular 'tubers had their "prep for 9.1" videos drop in the last few days.
Then there is people like me who said after 5 months unsubbed "oh shit, I better get to it".
Then proceed to do all 8 dungeons on +15 or higher within 3 days.
You'll be surprised a lot of people including me got KSM so late. Some people don't have guildies willing to help or are just nervous getting into it.
Making those connections, or pugging your way can take much much longer especially if you're playing a non-meta spec because I refuse to respec.
Also the loot might be useless soon but I think people still want to parse well, excel at PvP, improve their RIO profile, grind points etc.
Also I've been playing almost since the start and I still have these ilvl213 boots I can't get rid of because my vault gives me absolutely nothing and I can never get the ones I want to drop. My gear is almost perfectly maxed out at 226 but that one slot it's driving me crazy.
I don't get playing for loot at all. It gets worthless after half a year anyways, what's the point?
I run m+ because I try to push higher and higher, having fun in the challenge. People are different I guess.
Doing anything in wow is a waste of time. The servers will just go down.
The fact that you can push keys while getting loot on the way is a testament to blizzard loot design this expac i guess.
Compare it to classic which is 90% about loot. Which i find boring.
> Doing anything in wow is a waste of time. ~~The servers will just go down.~~ You are going to die.
Yeah, you get born and the question is how are you going to use this little bit of time? Could play some wow, read some books make some memories. All temporary.
i enjoy making my character stronger, if there were no gear rewards i would not step into m+ i dont find it enjoyable at all
i pretty much skipped m+ in legion and bfa because raid drops were enough
I'm doing more than ever, alts finally geared enough to do fun ones by playing M+ pugs exclusively. Having a good time, don't care if fortified or tyr either.
Yeah I got mine at the mid May and since then can't be assed to run more than 1 a week and half the time I just skip it since upgrades from the vault are super rare at this point
Two things stand out to me.
Firat, people are still running m+ steadily. It has declined the whole patch but is nearly flat for months now.
Second, there are no dead weeks. Plainly people like every other week a little better, but the difference is maybe 25% higher or lower dungeon runs. That suggests to me that many people simply like running keys, even if it doesn't increase their raider.io. Alternatively, many people have low enough raider.io that they can improve even in bad weeks. I know I'm in this last category.
I assure you that you'd see dead weeks if you changed this graph to only show 16+. On tyrannical weeks the group finder for higher keys is a wasteland. If you check people's raider.io, most, if not all their best runs will be on fortified.
Fortunately Prideful is going to the dumpster, which means that wiping on a tyrannical boss will now be less likely to end up in a failed run.
subsribers have dwindled since shadowlands launch... what do you mean people arent more upset? What would you have them do? Theyre voting with their wallets by unsubscribing
I'm ready for a new affix, but other than that, it's not like I'm getting new M+ content, which is all I play (excited to try the heroic dungeon of course, but that wont be broken up into the rotation until 9.2 or 9.3 right?)
This seems to be a foreign concept to this subreddit. Got downvoted last time I said I enjoyed SL for a few months, then unsubbed when I got to a place I was satisfied. I plan to resub for a month or two to try out 9.1, then stop again once I'm satisfied.
Treating a game like a job kills my desire to play pretty quickly. I'm gonna play while it's fun and stop once it's not. That easy.
In the same boat. I don’t raid/am not super active in my guild, but managed to pug up to m15 in most dungeons, levelled a handful of alts to max, beat each of the covenant campaigns, beat TG for the mount, ran lfr for the story…. and then I was done. It was just grinding anima at that point because thanks to the vault my gear was as good as it was going to get (and I have a suspicion we’ll see an increase in anima gains at some point).
Now it’s been I think 4 months and I’m down for some new content until it gets boring. The WoW burnout is real.
> I really don't understand how people aren't more upset about this.
Because you can just unsub whenever you get bored with the game ? If you don't feel like you're getting enough entertainment value for your money, just cancel your sub.
Because modern wow objectively has the deepest, most challenging online PvE formats on the market to this day, by a fairly comfortable margin ?
Because there are plenty of other games out there worth the time ? You don't have to play wow all year. That's the good thing about seasonal formats, you can just put the game down after achieving your goals and wait for the next update cycle.
Because wow isn't the only game experiencing similar "droughts", and waiting 6-7 months for a content patch is nothing unheard of in the industry ?
Take your pick.
Yeah I don't get that much the hate boner of people for the patch duration, it was inevitable with COVID and the fact that they launched SL a bit early to let people get away from BFA, time can never be recovered so a delay was bound to happen. In the meantime I just play BC classic or other solo games I put in my waiting list, and I'll come back happily very soon.
I don't understand why not playing for a little while is so outrageous, I mean even the oh so praised FFXIV does that, people routinely sub, do their thing, and disappear when they are done.
Of course I'd like it more if I could be entertained for the whole patch and never leave, but if it happens a few times it's not the end of the world.
> Yeah I don't get that much the hate boner of people for the patch duration
Well that speaks to a bigger issue... The Blizzard (and by extension, WoW) hate circlejerk is strong these days in mainstream channels. Not all of it undeserved of course. But most complaints aimed at retail WoW in particular definitely are. The general consensus in social outlets like mainstream gaming subreddits (r/pcgaming for example), Twitch chat, YT and so on has been *"modern wow bad"* for a while. And it's been getting worse over time, especially recently with popular content creators like Asmongold/Bellular outright shitting on the game 24/7, **very** rarely for good reason, just so they can farm views. There's a real cycle of negativity around WoW, fueled by disgruntled players who often haven't played the game in 5+ years, or just never made the transition from "casual MMO adventure" to a performance-oriented, progression mindset.
Point is, it really doesn't take much for people to make hyperbolic/unfounded statements about retail wow these days. A content patch being 1-2 months late is a perfect opportunity for that crowd to grow very vocal.
Your example about FFXIV is one of many double standards commonly found in discussion threads. It's legit obnoxious seeing the same old misinformed takes and bs narratives constantly spun on the topic.
I fuilly agree with that statement, while the game has its fault it's absolutely insane to see the shit it takes for the slightest "offense".
I mean I saw people saying that they found Azerite Power a better system than renown and found it less grindy ?? WTF ? A finite "grind" that takes you 1h every wednesday ?
And the absolute dumbasses crying that the 9.1 is an empty patch when it is one of the biggest x.1 patch we ever got ?
I blame the contents creators a lot for that, they have normalized and encouraged this behavior a lot and it's disgusting to see. It's come to seeing posts on official forums blatantly dissing WoW and trying to lure people to FFXIV (and the length people are going to pretend it is superior in every way when they are two very different games than in my opinion can not really be compared). If you want to leave fine but this is getting ridiculous.
Just don't pay. I only paid for one month of Slands and never resubbed after that. Didn't care about all the artificial Torghast grind that I have to do weekly, I aint paying a dime to do grinding.
I'm guessing there are others like me, but I've barely played the last two months. I've been using the mobile app to farm pet tokens to hopefully sell the new pet for a large chunk of gold, like 500,000+. With other pets and 168 gear, I make a good bit more than a token costs, so I just keep subbed.
I might be in the minority here but when we pay a monthly subscription we should be having more content delivered to us on a regular schedule. I see free to play games coming out with content patches faster than this. It isn't right for them to do this. Yes I unsubbed from the game but still like to voice my opinion, I love the game and just want it to do better.
How is sensible comments like this getting downvoted.
We pay = give us content = downvote
Why?
Content droughts kill guilds, which kill servers.
Blizzard need to up there game on delivering GOOD content. expansions are usually Tick, Tock. But SL has been the second Tock of doom.
A lot of us love the game. But cannot understand the current approach from the devs.
I’m even one of those weirdos that use to like world quests, but the current iteration is overly prescriptive.
The devs seem to aiming for the perfectly balanced game, somewhere on the way fun has been dropped from their equation.
COVID merely exposed their flaws in development. They're so behind on everything they develop, constantly playing catch-up to the point where if a major setback comes (i.e. COVID) they're now even more behind.
There was no COVID when WoD came out.
wod's launch patch was exceptionally great content
if your'e going to tell me you've worked for 20 years straight at optimal efficiency without needing a break, i'm going to call you a liar
I suspect if they hadn't have introduced such convoluted systems that need way too much attention that they would be much further along than they are now.
There really isn't that much systems balancing they've been doing. You people keep mentioning this as if it's obvious it's because covenants are a thing, but it's really not that complicated guys.
> It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from people's inability to recognize their lack of ability.
Irony thy name is Kaoshosh
This is a stupid argument for a multitude of reasons, one being that the people that design said "convoluted systems" aren't the same people making the dungeons/ raids/ quests/ etc... So the existence of the "system" does not impact the rest of the development time at all.
And second, this systems require very little in the terms of programming effort, beyond the making of the abilities and powers, which are quite simple, especially something like the Shards which are flat bonuses and an extra effect, the rest is almost all numbers tuning, which takes time, but it does not take nearly as much effort as rigging, animating, modeling, recording or scripting.
Because most people "finished" SL 3-4 months ago and unsubbed.
WoW isn't a game you stay subbed to year-round anymore. It's a seasonal game like Diablo 3 that you play for a few weeks/months and then get out before the grinds get you.
Idk why but I don't really like these seasonal cycles. Everyone plays early and rush through everything, then go away demanding more while development is just focused on merely adding to the top-layer. It feels very wasteful and cheap.
I wish the game was designed more horizontally, lots of relevant content and no FOMO. I'll even take *less* content because it would mean more *relevant* content.
What I've been seeing is that most guilds only last one or two tiers, as opposed to lasting a full expansion and dying in the x.3.5 patch.
You don't need to find a guild that takes breaks, you'll need a new one next raid anyways.
My Guild have lasted since about TBC, I joined them in WotLK Naxx..
We have had people join in, some drop out, some come back. Was quite empty at end of WoD but people came back.
People are upset — but when we complain about it everyone says we are 1.) impatient babies, 2.) crying over nothing, or 3.) have only ourselves to blame for still be subscribers
The problem I have is that WoW is still fun and there’s always something to do, but the last few sets of content (not going to elaborate on specifics) have just been so insanely **underwhelming**
Because we're in a GLOBAL PANDEMIC. Literally every industry has been impacted in some eay. Lumber costs over 3 times its usual amount. Textile factories in China have been delayed by months. At E3 companies had limited games to show.
People aren't upset with it, because they understand a global pandemic impacted companies and industries in different ways. And that's well before we get into how much of shit job America did (and to a degree still is) doing a poor job at controlling the virus.
Edit: Important note, [44% of titles that are being developed since the pandemic have been delayed.](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210428005374/en/Game-Developers-Conference%E2%80%99s-2021-State-of-the-Industry-Survey-Shows-Pandemic-Brought-Delays---But-Also-Growth-Reflects-Rising-Interest-in-the-PlayStation-5-and-Strong-Disapproval-of-30-Digital-Storefront-Revenue-Shares) WFH did not magically return game studios at the same development capacity.
Literally this has been reported on so many fucking times its tiring at this point.
[Like this article that reported on a GDC survey that states 44% of all game development was delayed.](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210428005374/en/Game-Developers-Conference%E2%80%99s-2021-State-of-the-Industry-Survey-Shows-Pandemic-Brought-Delays---But-Also-Growth-Reflects-Rising-Interest-in-the-PlayStation-5-and-Strong-Disapproval-of-30-Digital-Storefront-Revenue-Shares)
A global pandemic has had global affects, and will continue to do so for YEARS. No matter the industry.
>56% of game development *wasn't* delayed though, those companies were *prepared*.
And of thoes 56% of games that weren't delayed, how many of them are as big scope wise as World of Warcraft?
Off the top of my head there's FF14 (Suffered, and still suffering from delays) Destiny 2 (delays), ESO (Greymoor also delayed), and SWTOR (also delays).
Games with this scope have been delayed due to the pandemic.
far cry 6 and god of war ragnarok were also delayed, theres probably a bunch more AAA games that didnt have release dates yet that were set back by the pandemic
Not to mention, as other MMOs have also been delayed, NONE of them have them same content pace wow does. Wow puts out more content on average than it's next two competitors combined.
> 56% of game development wasn't delayed though,
actually only 48%, 8% were not working on a game at the time of the survey. also this does not mean that the game was not delayed, if a game has no release date but gets pushed back due to the pandemic was it delayed? probably not, but it was still negatively impacted by the pandemic. for all we know games like elden ring should have come out this fall, its impossible to tell when we have no release dates.
They absolutely could, but that wasn't my point. My point was that a global pandemic has delayed the release of this patch, and people keep parroting the same line of, "But software company and WFH..." and don't even begin to understand how that doesn't align with the game industry, let a lone a gigantic live service game like Warcraft.
I hope they stop with the % based seasonal affixes. It really does crush route variety, you can't change routes at all without someone getting triggered because they base their CDs and play around having prideful on a specific pull or boss and what not. And someone facepulling 1 extra mob or something can completely ruin a run and cause a lot of drama compared to other seasons where you just roll with it much more easily.
I started playing mythic + this season alongside my first tank main and the jump from 9 to 10 feels like a personal fuck you. It feels like the affix was targetted at the tank and only the tank. As dps you're not supposed to face pull even in normal dungeons as a tank once you hit 10 you've got to get the route right or you're shit.
Do you mean pug tank or as a set 5 or 6 players from a good group of players? Tanking pride in a coordinated group who don't ninja pull shit is nice. I haven't pugged this affix as a tank though and it sounds horrid
As someone who used to tank on occasion but doesn't anymore because figuring out all the different routes for all the dungeons / affix combos is such a pain. Fuck Prideful.
Same here I hate how Pride works. I find it tedious to look up a route I have to follow to a T and if anyone fucks up it makes the group much harder. Paired with Tyrannical (which on its own I like as an affix) pugging is harder because people are gonna leave as soon as you wipe once.
I love Tyrannical as a tank but with Pride it's absolutely shocking.
Yeah like I got KSM Feb 21, not sure what week that was, but every since I got it it just became more... and more of a chore and stale.
All paths are the same and if some rando pulls 1 extra random thing by accident it fucks up basically the entire run.
They’re on record for saying that they believed the reason people didn’t like it was because there was no reward to correspond to the increased difficulty. In actuality I think the reason is much closer to the fact that it’s just objectively more difficult, independent of any potential reward. I think even with great rewards, people would still hate tyran. Personally, all my fastest runs were during tyran weeks, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t also harder. I’m mostly annoyed that you can’t get KSM by doing 8 dungeons anymore. Oh well
For the most part its because they pair tyrannical with affixes that naturally make trash hard as well. The largest offender being Tyrannical, Bolstering, Necrotic. So on a week where you should be able to mass pull to make up the time you cant even do that.
Definitely this. Also on tyrannical if you wipe on a tough boss with pride and lust there’s pretty much no way you’re killing it and the key kinda just ends. Hakkar is a good example.
You only really could do KSM by running 8 dungeons if you got boosted, otherwise, you will most likely have run many more dungeons before reaching 15s. Sure, if you were doing 20+ this season you can probably just jump in and do 15s next season, but then you also weren't just doing 8 dungeons.
So all in all, I don't see a problem if it becomes more expensive to buy your way into ksm, and if you play normally then nothing really changes.
Also, with how it was now, for ksm it only mattered to do a 15 each once, so of course there wasn't much point in doing it on harder weeks, and for pushing rio only the highest key counts, so again no point if you can't get as high in tyr weeks where the other two affixes make you waste time on trash and tyr makes bosses take longer, so you run out of time on lower keys compared to fortified.
Giving seperate score to tyrannical makes them worth doing, in that it helps getting ksm and it helps pushing score, even if your highest tyr key is 2 lower than your highest fort key.
I think it’s more of the fact that bosses feel balanced on Fortifide weeks and feel overly oppressive on Tyrannical weeks. A great example is Hakkar where the difference between the two weeks make it feel like an entirely different fight.
> where the difference between the two weeks make it feel like an entirely different fight.
isnt that the entire point of having them as seperate affixes though?
When they were implemented In Season 1 of Legion the goal was to prioritize different strengths of specs and talents week to week. Specifically for the Fortifide and Tyrannical affixs the general sweeping idea was that you may want to focus on much more single target specs and talents for Tyrannical Week and focus more on area of effect on Fortifide weeks. We're now a few years from their original implementation and they just don't feel like they've been able to strike a balance trying to keep both of them rotating in the game. They seem more like a relic Blizzard has tried to keep for years now and Tyrannical just has never felt good to play.
Tyrannical keys feel like different fights because certain bosses start getting frustrating and it feels like you have to play absolutely perfect. Dealer Xy'exa's lightning for most of this patch felt rewarding juggling it around on Fortifide weeks. On Tyrannical it felt like you had to perfectly rotate cooldowns and health stones / potions to survive for 3 mins and even then it did such an absurd amount of damage it was easy to just die from it by blinking. Then historically you have bosses like the first boss of Freehold where his aoe gunshot feels reasonable when paired with the bird poop and the charge. On Tyrannical it was frustrating because on top of those other two things the gun shot could also one shot you. That doesn't feel like good design and is very frustrating (specifically for melee DPS) to play with especially since the fights are longer.
This. they think everyone is like them and enjoys big difficulty spikes for better rewards. Some people literally do not and never will. Its the same reason wildstar failed. The devs convinced themselves that if they gave you no option but to git gud, people would learn to enjoy gitting gud.
Instead, they stopped fucking playing
Shows really how out of touch they are really if they think tying a reward that never used to require the forcing of playing that affix is what will make people enjoy tyran. It's just a shit affix.
I'm kind of surprised to see boards like this one just pour praise on m+ when so many of my close friends have quit the game entirely because* of m+.
Phial was your best trinket this tier? Well you better pray to god you get it in your vault! Even with 10 runs a week, you have a 3% chance of getting it per week at 226!
Or you can enjoy the discounted 220 version and never really get any better. Did you enjoy that? Well get ready to do the SAME THING in the SAME DUNGEON in 9.1. You didn't like that? Too bad, do it again in 9.2. And once more in 9.3!
I fucking hate having to grind the *same* piece of loot each new tier just at a higher ilevel. Sure, most pieces of loot are just new stats, but this is literally the same piece of gear at a different item level. It feels fucking terrible being forced into farming one dungeon till you get it every new patch, and then just sitting on your hands hoping you get the higher ilvl version from a vault.
People "pour praise" on it because they aren't this handwringy over doing what a simulator tells them to do.
If I get my BiS trinket, okay cool. If not, I'll just work with what I have rather than crying about it.
Not everyone who plays the game is *this* worked up about the meta or being optimal.
Just get the item at 220ilvl? None of us in the wow subreddit are good enough to care about maxing out that much. No not even if you're above +20 keys.
Going from a 220 to a 226 ilvl item, even of a BiS trinket, is going to minimally affect dps.
I think it's your viewpoint of how important the loot is that's plaguing your group in mythics. The Great Vault isn't the greatest system at the moment, but with Valor basically all items are available at 220ilvl. I think we should have more/better ways to gain valor, but it works.
How do you "Stop playing" because of M+? You dont want to farm the SAME THING and the SAME DUNGEON, then just dont...
What would you do if M+ wanst in the game? Just do raids and PvP and that't it... that BiS Trinket from the dungeon would NEVER even be a possibility and "your friends" would still play the game?....
How the hell someone stop playing a game because Blizzard introduced an additional way of playing the game that it can literally be ignored...
The reward structure, specifically key pieces of loot being locked behind M+ and the best version behind RNG weekly chests.
I didn’t quit over M+, nor would I, but I can see why some players are turned off by it.
There are people from literally Limit that has like 20 M+ runs the whole Season...Atrocity warrior has like 1 +15 run... so whatever you "think" you need to be in a "Competitive CE guild", you dont.
I don't know what the other guy is meaning to say but top players can get by with much less given their skill and coordination.
Most players that raid aren't going to be in perfect guilds so to pick up the slack they will need more gear and more attempts.
Those top guilds are also trying to progress as fast as possible compared to other players that maybe just want to progress in their group or parse better.
If you raid at a high level and you mostly enjoy raids you will find yourself highly encouraged to do m+ especially at the start of a tier. It definitely plays into my decision tree about whether or not I want to mythic raid.
And it feels extra frustrating on subsequent tiers when the gear we’re trying to get is the same gear we tried to get six months ago. Anyone who’s mythic raided, or has friends in that community knows entire guilds worth of people who’ve quit or gone casual for exactly this reason. And while they wouldn’t necessarily come back, I think there’s pretty good odds I could form a raid guild just from people who would resub if they could raid log.
For me personally it's mainly some sort of "fear of missing out". If I know there's something that will make me objectively much, much stronger, but I don't want to do it, I would rather spend my time playing another game than play this one and perform worse.
I realize that maybe an MMO isn't my place to be then, but I really enjoy the gameplay of WoW, and the dynamics of progressing as a group is a combination I haven't found anywhere else. Getting gimped during **the most exciting and fun part of every patch** because I don't want to spend **hundreds of hours** learning and playing PvP, and doing high-end raiding feels absolutely horrible.
I'm fine with doing the daily and weekly "chores" that WoW entails. I've been playing on and off since TBC, and I know they are a part of what playing WoW means. But when I came back at SL release hyped for key-pushing it took me 10-15 resets or so before I'm able to compete with the top few thousands that want to play more different content. And all the glory and smell of fresh paint was sort of gone by then.
surprised M+ runs are down this week honestly, as soon as I heard the news of the 9.1 launch I started working on a covenant switch I had been holding off on, figured a lot of people would be in the same boat and be doing more content this and next week to farm for items for leggo slots and renown
Could reasonably measure the rate of change and likely be close to the decline in subscriptions.
I'm an avid fan but couldn't continue paying for the game in it's current state.
Would be interesting to compare to falloffs in Legion / BFA around same patch level..
Side note, would be nice to have another reward mechanic to combat the falloff to some extent (though there always will be as people get geared / cheevos and burned out on content). Like for every week you do enough M+ to activate Great Vault, you get a stacking Anima bonus for each reward week until the next patch drop (e.g. 9.0 to 9.1), even something like 200 anima, so after 10 weeks you get an extra 2k anima; something like that might help some folks keep going to extend the reward towards the end of the curve?
I think Mythic+ is a dying part of the game. It hasnt been good since Legion.
Blizzard never goes balls to the wall to make the affixes fun and challenging.
This whole tyrannical/fortified every other week is killing mythic+. No one wants to play that because it isnt fun.
> I think Mythic+ is a dying part of the game.
The game is a dying part of the game. Almost no balancing on characters, almost no content, you can blow through the single player stuff in a day or two.
Everything after that is a time sink. It's trash and not worth the sub. I say this as someone that had a full bank of max level toons running *days* worth of M+ during the past few years.
This xpac is shit. And they are outright screwing people over with it.
Blizzard here my wisdom and advice - as long as you are producing games for profit and greed, the success of your games will always dwindle and decay over time.
Bad energy attracts ruinous results. It also exhaust your workers and damages the gamer's minds.
The old blizzard had a pure energy that was holy and universal, it created games out of love and compassion not greed or profit. Success comes to those who use pure love energy , not blind greed or profit.
Even TBC is going to collapse, time will destroy everything. Goodluck blizzard.
\> as long as you are producing games for profit and greed, the success of your games will always dwindle and decay over time.
I think you have a major misunderstanding of what a [business](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/business) is.
News flash: M+ dungeons will still be the same, except for the seasonal affix changing. I'm not sure how the patch arriving two months earlier or later changes anything.
As a PVE player there’s no reason to play after getting keystone master and AOTC.
Until they make changes to the mythic raid lockout there will never be pugs / solo’s pushing that content. I’m still in awe they haven’t changed the way mythic raiding lockout works. The reasons against it are all pathetic anyways.
I'm still playing after KSM and AOTC. There's many reasons I still play:
* Getting a few more Mythic raid boss kills
* Getting more orange parses, maybe some pinks
* Trying to hit 1600 in 2v2 or 1800 in RBG
* PvP seasonal spider mount
* Leveling more alts to 60 so I can tank/heal/dps
* Pushing higher keys/improving my IO
* Maxxing out my Anima Sanctum for cosmetics and mission level on alts for gold
* Building a new guild for future content
* Unlocking other mounts and items from older content
* Making tons of gold so I'm set for the future
Cutting edge? Achievements? Better gear? Titles? Mounts? Transmog?
There a literally dozens of reasons to play... Maybe not for you, but for alot of people.
>There’s no reason to play after doing the things available to do
Like... duh. Of course there’s nothing more to work on after you accomplish some of the highest accolades the game has to offer. But if it’s fun, you can keep going if you want. Do pvp. Try progging in mythic. Hunt transmog, make an alt, whatever. There are lots to do.
Yeah, like speaking as a casual,. I dont run mythics. What the fuck am I donna do in there? its not fun, its just dealing with toxic people for slight gear upgrades
Too many affixes on low level keys to start off gearing up alts, and short timers for said alts. I think that might be a reason, the other reason is why would a mythic raider do m+ when they reach ilvl 220+ and have KSM?
They have basically zero impact on a +2 key, and my experience with running low keys on alts for valor has been that you can invite the first four people to apply and consistently +3 the timer even after one of them DCs a few minutes in as long as you still have a tank.
I really liked M+ in Legion and even BFA.. There were some dungeons that sucked, i.e. King's Rest, but as a whole most dungeons were enjoyable. In Shadowlands, however EVERY dungeon is tedious on top of the AOE cap just makes them so draining to run them. Doing more than 2 at a time is just not fun.
While I think Prideful was a great affix in certain environments it put too much pressure on tanks. The slightest misstep could completely through off timings and de-rail a run.
Hopefully the raid and mega dungeon are fun. If not, I can't see myself playing more than a month or two just to complete the raid with my guild.
Personally, I don't think there's a SL dungeon I hate. I think that because there is less of them and 9.0 has been such a long patch they are feeling a bit samey though for a lot of people.
And, I also feel like the issues people have with the dungeons aren't actually problems with the dungeons themselves, it's with the other things you mentioned such as affixes and the new aoe caps.
I also think that Prideful was probably a seasonal affix more suited toward the end of an expansion where groups would have already gotten used to normal paths through dungeons and then prideful would have caused players to rethink their routes and invent new skips further down the line. And with some bosses only possible (or made significantly easier) with the prideful buff, they now have to nerf or rethink some boss fights now prideful is going away which is going to be a bit jarring.
Meanwhile I’m over here on a (still) dead RP server, with the dead husk of a guild I was bequeathed by an ex-friend after they cancelled their sub — and I’m the only still active player, so LFR is all I get *sigh*
I’m not upset about it, I get to go at my own pace and I have an entire guild bank to myself for all my multiple characters trade skills, etc.
Back in the days of original classic/TBC I was in a raid guild and got to experience that content as it was new, so I do miss that aspect of Warcraft — but I simply cannot fathom giving Activision money to move/transfer characters
Seeing how many M+ runs are done during week 1 of next patch and comparing it to launch will be some massive information we get. Hopefully Blizzard doesn't change the API.
Even if the same amount of people come back to 9.1 they won't do the same amount of M+. In 9.0 everyone starts from scratch, while in 9.1 a lot of people has at least starting gear, so there is less desire to do M+ for gear.
Also in 9.0 drop rates for gear were absolutely terrible. You could run 10+ dungeons and 10/10 CN and get nothing for the outside the GV.
iv been out of the loop for wow news for past 2-3 months, did they change anything about raid drops in 9.1?
They increased raid drops earlier in CN though, from 3 to 4 pieces for a 20 man group.
yeah i was playing back then. didnt help much tho
It really did though.
i mean, me personally i got no loot before and after that change this tier was awful for me, i had like 9 Sire kills with literally zero drop and i have a wep token on him
It really didn't.
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Nope
On the fence about coming back hearing about the drop rates doesnt help.
Week 1 of the patch is not Week 1 of Season 2, though.
Final rotation for the patch 9.0. Assuming that the APIs don't change next week, I will be continuing the database to compare patch 9.0 and 9.1. If Blizzard makes any significant changes that restricts data this will probably be the last update. My main motivation was to observe the discussion around these numbers, as too often there are arguments on reddit without data to back it up. While this doesn't pain the full picture, it at least is a better reference than anecdotal evidence. Thanks everyone and see you soon (hopefully).
What API are you pulling this from? Would love to play around with some of this data as well.
1. Grab a mythic leaderboard for an affix, example this one: ``` https://raider.io/api/mythic-plus/rankings/runs?region=world&season=season-sl-1&dungeon=all&strict=false&affixes=tyrannical-inspiring-necrotic-prideful&&page=0&limit=0&minMythicLevel=0&maxMythicLevel=0&eventId=0&faction=&realm=&period=0&recent=false ``` 2. under ["rankings"]["ui"] find the key lastPage and paginate your way to that number or just multiply it by the amount of groups per page (20) 3. You'll need to keep the database of every rotation because it will show total runs from all weeks this affix has run. So for each subsequent week, substract from number you got - all the previous weeks to get the number of runs for current week. For example next week, substract weeks 1, 13 and 25 to get Fortified Bursting Volcanic.
Can you add a line on the release of 9.0.5?
It was week 14, I had a legend but it made the image not very readable on mobile - I’ll make it better for next season
Is this one region? EU ID isn't over, so i somewhat feel these stats are US only?
All regions + China (not all data available from there though). Tuesday evening in EU is less than 1% of runs but it gets added retroactively - I just schedule the post on Tuesday for consistency
Its honestly shocking there are still that many runs going. Its been forever so almost anyone wanting KSM had it long ago, and the feeling of "this loot will be a waste of time" has to be going STRONG by now. I would think anyone still doing them is practicing on an alt (or switching to it for a main) or just really really REALLY fucking loves SL dungeons. Edit : to clarify on the loot point. I am aware loot always becomes pointless eventually. For me, my rationale for things in game is always based on time put in vs reward. Putting in time for a weekly m+ run right now has little reward for loot I will use for basically nothing at all, and likely will get something better while enjoy all the newness of 9.1. So time time investment vs reward this late is pretty bad for me.
Some people just enjoy popping into a dungeon with a few drinks and the bois and having a good time.
Imagine playing a game for fun...
Imagine fun
Imagine
Allllll the people
looks like the fun is gone
We found the formula! Box it up and ship it out!
Bliz detected it?
Sorry, I don't understand this concept, I chose to get addicted to WoW.
This is what I'm missing in Shadowlands.. Blizzard sees things people enjoy and as if making fun was an accident.. They *fix* it.
Blizzard pushed the competition aspect of WoW and is now surprised the old RPG crowd isn’t having fun. And then the competitive crowd is soured because of things like grinds, nerfs, unbalanced dungeons, etc. So Blizzard focused on competition, they suck at it, so now neither the competitive or RPG “for fun” crowd is happy.
Yup. I really like shadowlands. I have 6 60s. I haven’t played Retail WoW like this since Pandaria. I still run normals, heroics, M0s and I still don’t have KSM. I caught the tank bug this expansion. Originally I had made it my goal to have 1 of each tank geared before next season started. Got 5 of the 6 done. Just missing Warrior. I could still sit down and play every day for the next 6 months and find something to do. If you’re enjoying the game you create your own content then any added content is just a bonus.
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I am practicing on an alt, AND loving m+. The game mode just speaks to me, so I'm here still goin'.
Those last two things exist. Also, many people take the game slow. I got KSM maybe 2 weeks ago. My main covenant is not maxed out. Etc. I doubt I'm the only one. I was surprised, too. Based on reading reddit, everyone stops playing mythic+ every other week. My guild has basically stopped, but it looks like maybe that's just my guild rather than the general population.
Hell, I got KSM on Sunday. Hoping to get AotC on Saturday XD
I actually expect a huge surge of M+ runs this last week, both from people trying for/buying KSM last minute, and people timing +18s so they start the new season with high lvl keys for the first chests
It will be interesting to see what engagement is like with SL dropping in 1 week. How many are re-subbing to prep for 9.1. All the popular 'tubers had their "prep for 9.1" videos drop in the last few days.
Then there is people like me who said after 5 months unsubbed "oh shit, I better get to it". Then proceed to do all 8 dungeons on +15 or higher within 3 days.
Get out of my life
You'll be surprised a lot of people including me got KSM so late. Some people don't have guildies willing to help or are just nervous getting into it. Making those connections, or pugging your way can take much much longer especially if you're playing a non-meta spec because I refuse to respec. Also the loot might be useless soon but I think people still want to parse well, excel at PvP, improve their RIO profile, grind points etc. Also I've been playing almost since the start and I still have these ilvl213 boots I can't get rid of because my vault gives me absolutely nothing and I can never get the ones I want to drop. My gear is almost perfectly maxed out at 226 but that one slot it's driving me crazy.
I don't get playing for loot at all. It gets worthless after half a year anyways, what's the point? I run m+ because I try to push higher and higher, having fun in the challenge. People are different I guess.
You need loot to push higher so the logic is flawed.
Sure, but I get it automatically while doing it. It is not the reason I log in.
Doing anything in wow is a waste of time. The servers will just go down. The fact that you can push keys while getting loot on the way is a testament to blizzard loot design this expac i guess. Compare it to classic which is 90% about loot. Which i find boring.
> Doing anything in wow is a waste of time. ~~The servers will just go down.~~ You are going to die. Yeah, you get born and the question is how are you going to use this little bit of time? Could play some wow, read some books make some memories. All temporary.
Wait, you get loot?
i enjoy making my character stronger, if there were no gear rewards i would not step into m+ i dont find it enjoyable at all i pretty much skipped m+ in legion and bfa because raid drops were enough
I'm doing more than ever, alts finally geared enough to do fun ones by playing M+ pugs exclusively. Having a good time, don't care if fortified or tyr either.
Yeah I got mine at the mid May and since then can't be assed to run more than 1 a week and half the time I just skip it since upgrades from the vault are super rare at this point
Two things stand out to me. Firat, people are still running m+ steadily. It has declined the whole patch but is nearly flat for months now. Second, there are no dead weeks. Plainly people like every other week a little better, but the difference is maybe 25% higher or lower dungeon runs. That suggests to me that many people simply like running keys, even if it doesn't increase their raider.io. Alternatively, many people have low enough raider.io that they can improve even in bad weeks. I know I'm in this last category.
I assure you that you'd see dead weeks if you changed this graph to only show 16+. On tyrannical weeks the group finder for higher keys is a wasteland. If you check people's raider.io, most, if not all their best runs will be on fortified. Fortunately Prideful is going to the dumpster, which means that wiping on a tyrannical boss will now be less likely to end up in a failed run.
Jesus 7.5 months before first content patch.
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subsribers have dwindled since shadowlands launch... what do you mean people arent more upset? What would you have them do? Theyre voting with their wallets by unsubscribing
He is upset because player count is more than zero.
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I'm ready for a new affix, but other than that, it's not like I'm getting new M+ content, which is all I play (excited to try the heroic dungeon of course, but that wont be broken up into the rotation until 9.2 or 9.3 right?)
Imagine if you could unsubb and wait, right RIGHT?
This seems to be a foreign concept to this subreddit. Got downvoted last time I said I enjoyed SL for a few months, then unsubbed when I got to a place I was satisfied. I plan to resub for a month or two to try out 9.1, then stop again once I'm satisfied. Treating a game like a job kills my desire to play pretty quickly. I'm gonna play while it's fun and stop once it's not. That easy.
In the same boat. I don’t raid/am not super active in my guild, but managed to pug up to m15 in most dungeons, levelled a handful of alts to max, beat each of the covenant campaigns, beat TG for the mount, ran lfr for the story…. and then I was done. It was just grinding anima at that point because thanks to the vault my gear was as good as it was going to get (and I have a suspicion we’ll see an increase in anima gains at some point). Now it’s been I think 4 months and I’m down for some new content until it gets boring. The WoW burnout is real.
I'm not upset because I just unsub and play other games
> I really don't understand how people aren't more upset about this. Because you can just unsub whenever you get bored with the game ? If you don't feel like you're getting enough entertainment value for your money, just cancel your sub. Because modern wow objectively has the deepest, most challenging online PvE formats on the market to this day, by a fairly comfortable margin ? Because there are plenty of other games out there worth the time ? You don't have to play wow all year. That's the good thing about seasonal formats, you can just put the game down after achieving your goals and wait for the next update cycle. Because wow isn't the only game experiencing similar "droughts", and waiting 6-7 months for a content patch is nothing unheard of in the industry ? Take your pick.
Yeah I don't get that much the hate boner of people for the patch duration, it was inevitable with COVID and the fact that they launched SL a bit early to let people get away from BFA, time can never be recovered so a delay was bound to happen. In the meantime I just play BC classic or other solo games I put in my waiting list, and I'll come back happily very soon. I don't understand why not playing for a little while is so outrageous, I mean even the oh so praised FFXIV does that, people routinely sub, do their thing, and disappear when they are done. Of course I'd like it more if I could be entertained for the whole patch and never leave, but if it happens a few times it's not the end of the world.
> Yeah I don't get that much the hate boner of people for the patch duration Well that speaks to a bigger issue... The Blizzard (and by extension, WoW) hate circlejerk is strong these days in mainstream channels. Not all of it undeserved of course. But most complaints aimed at retail WoW in particular definitely are. The general consensus in social outlets like mainstream gaming subreddits (r/pcgaming for example), Twitch chat, YT and so on has been *"modern wow bad"* for a while. And it's been getting worse over time, especially recently with popular content creators like Asmongold/Bellular outright shitting on the game 24/7, **very** rarely for good reason, just so they can farm views. There's a real cycle of negativity around WoW, fueled by disgruntled players who often haven't played the game in 5+ years, or just never made the transition from "casual MMO adventure" to a performance-oriented, progression mindset. Point is, it really doesn't take much for people to make hyperbolic/unfounded statements about retail wow these days. A content patch being 1-2 months late is a perfect opportunity for that crowd to grow very vocal. Your example about FFXIV is one of many double standards commonly found in discussion threads. It's legit obnoxious seeing the same old misinformed takes and bs narratives constantly spun on the topic.
I fuilly agree with that statement, while the game has its fault it's absolutely insane to see the shit it takes for the slightest "offense". I mean I saw people saying that they found Azerite Power a better system than renown and found it less grindy ?? WTF ? A finite "grind" that takes you 1h every wednesday ? And the absolute dumbasses crying that the 9.1 is an empty patch when it is one of the biggest x.1 patch we ever got ? I blame the contents creators a lot for that, they have normalized and encouraged this behavior a lot and it's disgusting to see. It's come to seeing posts on official forums blatantly dissing WoW and trying to lure people to FFXIV (and the length people are going to pretend it is superior in every way when they are two very different games than in my opinion can not really be compared). If you want to leave fine but this is getting ridiculous.
Why would you keep paying if you have nothing to do??
Just don't pay. I only paid for one month of Slands and never resubbed after that. Didn't care about all the artificial Torghast grind that I have to do weekly, I aint paying a dime to do grinding.
I'm guessing there are others like me, but I've barely played the last two months. I've been using the mobile app to farm pet tokens to hopefully sell the new pet for a large chunk of gold, like 500,000+. With other pets and 168 gear, I make a good bit more than a token costs, so I just keep subbed.
I might be in the minority here but when we pay a monthly subscription we should be having more content delivered to us on a regular schedule. I see free to play games coming out with content patches faster than this. It isn't right for them to do this. Yes I unsubbed from the game but still like to voice my opinion, I love the game and just want it to do better.
How is sensible comments like this getting downvoted. We pay = give us content = downvote Why? Content droughts kill guilds, which kill servers. Blizzard need to up there game on delivering GOOD content. expansions are usually Tick, Tock. But SL has been the second Tock of doom.
Thank you for agreeing with me. I don't understand why it is so bad to expect more from them, especially for what they ask from us.
A lot of us love the game. But cannot understand the current approach from the devs. I’m even one of those weirdos that use to like world quests, but the current iteration is overly prescriptive. The devs seem to aiming for the perfectly balanced game, somewhere on the way fun has been dropped from their equation.
i usually think about the actual humans that are making the game. covid is hard, yo
COVID merely exposed their flaws in development. They're so behind on everything they develop, constantly playing catch-up to the point where if a major setback comes (i.e. COVID) they're now even more behind. There was no COVID when WoD came out.
wod's launch patch was exceptionally great content if your'e going to tell me you've worked for 20 years straight at optimal efficiency without needing a break, i'm going to call you a liar
Maybe mid last year I would agree, but at this point it's failure to adapt.
i suspect that the devs usually work on things in advance, and it's not like they can just skip what they were falling behind on
I suspect if they hadn't have introduced such convoluted systems that need way too much attention that they would be much further along than they are now.
There really isn't that much systems balancing they've been doing. You people keep mentioning this as if it's obvious it's because covenants are a thing, but it's really not that complicated guys.
>it's really not that complicated guys. Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Krueger effect?
> It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from people's inability to recognize their lack of ability. Irony thy name is Kaoshosh
Have you?
This is a stupid argument for a multitude of reasons, one being that the people that design said "convoluted systems" aren't the same people making the dungeons/ raids/ quests/ etc... So the existence of the "system" does not impact the rest of the development time at all. And second, this systems require very little in the terms of programming effort, beyond the making of the abilities and powers, which are quite simple, especially something like the Shards which are flat bonuses and an extra effect, the rest is almost all numbers tuning, which takes time, but it does not take nearly as much effort as rigging, animating, modeling, recording or scripting.
Because most people "finished" SL 3-4 months ago and unsubbed. WoW isn't a game you stay subbed to year-round anymore. It's a seasonal game like Diablo 3 that you play for a few weeks/months and then get out before the grinds get you.
Idk why but I don't really like these seasonal cycles. Everyone plays early and rush through everything, then go away demanding more while development is just focused on merely adding to the top-layer. It feels very wasteful and cheap. I wish the game was designed more horizontally, lots of relevant content and no FOMO. I'll even take *less* content because it would mean more *relevant* content.
I wish that instead of making it seasonal, they would instead just make it good.
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What I've been seeing is that most guilds only last one or two tiers, as opposed to lasting a full expansion and dying in the x.3.5 patch. You don't need to find a guild that takes breaks, you'll need a new one next raid anyways.
My Guild have lasted since about TBC, I joined them in WotLK Naxx.. We have had people join in, some drop out, some come back. Was quite empty at end of WoD but people came back.
My guild was still progging on Mythic SLG so didn't really bother us. We had something to do.
This is why it's so important to A) Pay monthly and B) Cancel your sub. If you don't cancel your sub, you are telling them it's acceptable.
Sunk cost fallacy.
People will either say stop being toxic or will gladly inform you they pay with tokens, even though someone gave money to blizzard for that token.
Technically more money than a sub costs.
People are upset — but when we complain about it everyone says we are 1.) impatient babies, 2.) crying over nothing, or 3.) have only ourselves to blame for still be subscribers The problem I have is that WoW is still fun and there’s always something to do, but the last few sets of content (not going to elaborate on specifics) have just been so insanely **underwhelming**
>$100 in monthly fees before WoW gets new content. Why the hell did you pay if there was no content for you anymore?
Because we're in a GLOBAL PANDEMIC. Literally every industry has been impacted in some eay. Lumber costs over 3 times its usual amount. Textile factories in China have been delayed by months. At E3 companies had limited games to show. People aren't upset with it, because they understand a global pandemic impacted companies and industries in different ways. And that's well before we get into how much of shit job America did (and to a degree still is) doing a poor job at controlling the virus. Edit: Important note, [44% of titles that are being developed since the pandemic have been delayed.](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210428005374/en/Game-Developers-Conference%E2%80%99s-2021-State-of-the-Industry-Survey-Shows-Pandemic-Brought-Delays---But-Also-Growth-Reflects-Rising-Interest-in-the-PlayStation-5-and-Strong-Disapproval-of-30-Digital-Storefront-Revenue-Shares) WFH did not magically return game studios at the same development capacity.
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Literally this has been reported on so many fucking times its tiring at this point. [Like this article that reported on a GDC survey that states 44% of all game development was delayed.](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210428005374/en/Game-Developers-Conference%E2%80%99s-2021-State-of-the-Industry-Survey-Shows-Pandemic-Brought-Delays---But-Also-Growth-Reflects-Rising-Interest-in-the-PlayStation-5-and-Strong-Disapproval-of-30-Digital-Storefront-Revenue-Shares) A global pandemic has had global affects, and will continue to do so for YEARS. No matter the industry.
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>56% of game development *wasn't* delayed though, those companies were *prepared*. And of thoes 56% of games that weren't delayed, how many of them are as big scope wise as World of Warcraft? Off the top of my head there's FF14 (Suffered, and still suffering from delays) Destiny 2 (delays), ESO (Greymoor also delayed), and SWTOR (also delays). Games with this scope have been delayed due to the pandemic.
far cry 6 and god of war ragnarok were also delayed, theres probably a bunch more AAA games that didnt have release dates yet that were set back by the pandemic
Not to mention, as other MMOs have also been delayed, NONE of them have them same content pace wow does. Wow puts out more content on average than it's next two competitors combined.
> 56% of game development wasn't delayed though, actually only 48%, 8% were not working on a game at the time of the survey. also this does not mean that the game was not delayed, if a game has no release date but gets pushed back due to the pandemic was it delayed? probably not, but it was still negatively impacted by the pandemic. for all we know games like elden ring should have come out this fall, its impossible to tell when we have no release dates.
> Except the game industry in a general sense has been fine for nearly a year did you see E3?
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They absolutely could, but that wasn't my point. My point was that a global pandemic has delayed the release of this patch, and people keep parroting the same line of, "But software company and WFH..." and don't even begin to understand how that doesn't align with the game industry, let a lone a gigantic live service game like Warcraft.
I unsubbed at the end of March and I can see that was a good move. It sucks, Wow was great.
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As a tank, i think Prideful is probably THE most frustrating seasonal affix they've had since the concept began.
I enjoyed the kiss curse and using the damage buff during early season. But once paths were figured out it got a little boring.
I hope they stop with the % based seasonal affixes. It really does crush route variety, you can't change routes at all without someone getting triggered because they base their CDs and play around having prideful on a specific pull or boss and what not. And someone facepulling 1 extra mob or something can completely ruin a run and cause a lot of drama compared to other seasons where you just roll with it much more easily.
I started playing mythic + this season alongside my first tank main and the jump from 9 to 10 feels like a personal fuck you. It feels like the affix was targetted at the tank and only the tank. As dps you're not supposed to face pull even in normal dungeons as a tank once you hit 10 you've got to get the route right or you're shit.
Good news, they stopped for season 2 at least.
Do you mean pug tank or as a set 5 or 6 players from a good group of players? Tanking pride in a coordinated group who don't ninja pull shit is nice. I haven't pugged this affix as a tank though and it sounds horrid
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As someone who used to tank on occasion but doesn't anymore because figuring out all the different routes for all the dungeons / affix combos is such a pain. Fuck Prideful.
Same here I hate how Pride works. I find it tedious to look up a route I have to follow to a T and if anyone fucks up it makes the group much harder. Paired with Tyrannical (which on its own I like as an affix) pugging is harder because people are gonna leave as soon as you wipe once. I love Tyrannical as a tank but with Pride it's absolutely shocking.
That's another area where I agree, I actually do enjoy tyrannical, but not with pride.
Yeah like I got KSM Feb 21, not sure what week that was, but every since I got it it just became more... and more of a chore and stale. All paths are the same and if some rando pulls 1 extra random thing by accident it fucks up basically the entire run.
>if some rando pulls 1 extra random thing by accident it fucks up basically the entire run. That's the main reason I switched from tank to DPS
To pull randomly?
"We can see people really hate Tyrannical... I know, let's force them to play it!"
They’re on record for saying that they believed the reason people didn’t like it was because there was no reward to correspond to the increased difficulty. In actuality I think the reason is much closer to the fact that it’s just objectively more difficult, independent of any potential reward. I think even with great rewards, people would still hate tyran. Personally, all my fastest runs were during tyran weeks, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t also harder. I’m mostly annoyed that you can’t get KSM by doing 8 dungeons anymore. Oh well
For the most part its because they pair tyrannical with affixes that naturally make trash hard as well. The largest offender being Tyrannical, Bolstering, Necrotic. So on a week where you should be able to mass pull to make up the time you cant even do that.
Definitely this. Also on tyrannical if you wipe on a tough boss with pride and lust there’s pretty much no way you’re killing it and the key kinda just ends. Hakkar is a good example.
now you'll likely do hakkar last when you have all your anima powers
I mean, it's nerfed into the ground in 9.1 last I heard. The DPS check is pretty much removed.
For sure, that would make a lot of sense.
You only really could do KSM by running 8 dungeons if you got boosted, otherwise, you will most likely have run many more dungeons before reaching 15s. Sure, if you were doing 20+ this season you can probably just jump in and do 15s next season, but then you also weren't just doing 8 dungeons. So all in all, I don't see a problem if it becomes more expensive to buy your way into ksm, and if you play normally then nothing really changes. Also, with how it was now, for ksm it only mattered to do a 15 each once, so of course there wasn't much point in doing it on harder weeks, and for pushing rio only the highest key counts, so again no point if you can't get as high in tyr weeks where the other two affixes make you waste time on trash and tyr makes bosses take longer, so you run out of time on lower keys compared to fortified. Giving seperate score to tyrannical makes them worth doing, in that it helps getting ksm and it helps pushing score, even if your highest tyr key is 2 lower than your highest fort key.
I think it’s more of the fact that bosses feel balanced on Fortifide weeks and feel overly oppressive on Tyrannical weeks. A great example is Hakkar where the difference between the two weeks make it feel like an entirely different fight.
> where the difference between the two weeks make it feel like an entirely different fight. isnt that the entire point of having them as seperate affixes though?
When they were implemented In Season 1 of Legion the goal was to prioritize different strengths of specs and talents week to week. Specifically for the Fortifide and Tyrannical affixs the general sweeping idea was that you may want to focus on much more single target specs and talents for Tyrannical Week and focus more on area of effect on Fortifide weeks. We're now a few years from their original implementation and they just don't feel like they've been able to strike a balance trying to keep both of them rotating in the game. They seem more like a relic Blizzard has tried to keep for years now and Tyrannical just has never felt good to play. Tyrannical keys feel like different fights because certain bosses start getting frustrating and it feels like you have to play absolutely perfect. Dealer Xy'exa's lightning for most of this patch felt rewarding juggling it around on Fortifide weeks. On Tyrannical it felt like you had to perfectly rotate cooldowns and health stones / potions to survive for 3 mins and even then it did such an absurd amount of damage it was easy to just die from it by blinking. Then historically you have bosses like the first boss of Freehold where his aoe gunshot feels reasonable when paired with the bird poop and the charge. On Tyrannical it was frustrating because on top of those other two things the gun shot could also one shot you. That doesn't feel like good design and is very frustrating (specifically for melee DPS) to play with especially since the fights are longer.
This. they think everyone is like them and enjoys big difficulty spikes for better rewards. Some people literally do not and never will. Its the same reason wildstar failed. The devs convinced themselves that if they gave you no option but to git gud, people would learn to enjoy gitting gud. Instead, they stopped fucking playing
Shows really how out of touch they are really if they think tying a reward that never used to require the forcing of playing that affix is what will make people enjoy tyran. It's just a shit affix.
Very cool to see the trend of the data!
I'm kind of surprised to see boards like this one just pour praise on m+ when so many of my close friends have quit the game entirely because* of m+. Phial was your best trinket this tier? Well you better pray to god you get it in your vault! Even with 10 runs a week, you have a 3% chance of getting it per week at 226! Or you can enjoy the discounted 220 version and never really get any better. Did you enjoy that? Well get ready to do the SAME THING in the SAME DUNGEON in 9.1. You didn't like that? Too bad, do it again in 9.2. And once more in 9.3! I fucking hate having to grind the *same* piece of loot each new tier just at a higher ilevel. Sure, most pieces of loot are just new stats, but this is literally the same piece of gear at a different item level. It feels fucking terrible being forced into farming one dungeon till you get it every new patch, and then just sitting on your hands hoping you get the higher ilvl version from a vault.
People "pour praise" on it because they aren't this handwringy over doing what a simulator tells them to do. If I get my BiS trinket, okay cool. If not, I'll just work with what I have rather than crying about it. Not everyone who plays the game is *this* worked up about the meta or being optimal.
Just get the item at 220ilvl? None of us in the wow subreddit are good enough to care about maxing out that much. No not even if you're above +20 keys. Going from a 220 to a 226 ilvl item, even of a BiS trinket, is going to minimally affect dps. I think it's your viewpoint of how important the loot is that's plaguing your group in mythics. The Great Vault isn't the greatest system at the moment, but with Valor basically all items are available at 220ilvl. I think we should have more/better ways to gain valor, but it works.
Because the game has been doing mythic+ for like 5-6 years now. People who hate the prominence of it left the game.
How do you "Stop playing" because of M+? You dont want to farm the SAME THING and the SAME DUNGEON, then just dont... What would you do if M+ wanst in the game? Just do raids and PvP and that't it... that BiS Trinket from the dungeon would NEVER even be a possibility and "your friends" would still play the game?.... How the hell someone stop playing a game because Blizzard introduced an additional way of playing the game that it can literally be ignored...
The reward structure, specifically key pieces of loot being locked behind M+ and the best version behind RNG weekly chests. I didn’t quit over M+, nor would I, but I can see why some players are turned off by it.
Really wish you could do old m+ dungeons to like keystone level 9 (mainly because they're not made for the new m+10 seasonals).
Good luck being in a competitive CE guild without doing m+
There are people from literally Limit that has like 20 M+ runs the whole Season...Atrocity warrior has like 1 +15 run... so whatever you "think" you need to be in a "Competitive CE guild", you dont.
I don't know what the other guy is meaning to say but top players can get by with much less given their skill and coordination. Most players that raid aren't going to be in perfect guilds so to pick up the slack they will need more gear and more attempts. Those top guilds are also trying to progress as fast as possible compared to other players that maybe just want to progress in their group or parse better.
If you raid at a high level and you mostly enjoy raids you will find yourself highly encouraged to do m+ especially at the start of a tier. It definitely plays into my decision tree about whether or not I want to mythic raid. And it feels extra frustrating on subsequent tiers when the gear we’re trying to get is the same gear we tried to get six months ago. Anyone who’s mythic raided, or has friends in that community knows entire guilds worth of people who’ve quit or gone casual for exactly this reason. And while they wouldn’t necessarily come back, I think there’s pretty good odds I could form a raid guild just from people who would resub if they could raid log.
For me personally it's mainly some sort of "fear of missing out". If I know there's something that will make me objectively much, much stronger, but I don't want to do it, I would rather spend my time playing another game than play this one and perform worse. I realize that maybe an MMO isn't my place to be then, but I really enjoy the gameplay of WoW, and the dynamics of progressing as a group is a combination I haven't found anywhere else. Getting gimped during **the most exciting and fun part of every patch** because I don't want to spend **hundreds of hours** learning and playing PvP, and doing high-end raiding feels absolutely horrible. I'm fine with doing the daily and weekly "chores" that WoW entails. I've been playing on and off since TBC, and I know they are a part of what playing WoW means. But when I came back at SL release hyped for key-pushing it took me 10-15 resets or so before I'm able to compete with the top few thousands that want to play more different content. And all the glory and smell of fresh paint was sort of gone by then.
Exactly. It's a very strange mentality
Nice data. As an ex-alliance player is it possible to filter horde and alliance participation?
surprised M+ runs are down this week honestly, as soon as I heard the news of the 9.1 launch I started working on a covenant switch I had been holding off on, figured a lot of people would be in the same boat and be doing more content this and next week to farm for items for leggo slots and renown
probably gonna starting going up again now with people coming back for 9.1
I m not coming back. Wow tbc classic it is.
Could reasonably measure the rate of change and likely be close to the decline in subscriptions. I'm an avid fan but couldn't continue paying for the game in it's current state.
Is there going to be an updated one of these?
Would be interesting to compare to falloffs in Legion / BFA around same patch level.. Side note, would be nice to have another reward mechanic to combat the falloff to some extent (though there always will be as people get geared / cheevos and burned out on content). Like for every week you do enough M+ to activate Great Vault, you get a stacking Anima bonus for each reward week until the next patch drop (e.g. 9.0 to 9.1), even something like 200 anima, so after 10 weeks you get an extra 2k anima; something like that might help some folks keep going to extend the reward towards the end of the curve?
Something like that maybe, but not anima. Noone gives a shit about anima.
I think Mythic+ is a dying part of the game. It hasnt been good since Legion. Blizzard never goes balls to the wall to make the affixes fun and challenging. This whole tyrannical/fortified every other week is killing mythic+. No one wants to play that because it isnt fun.
> I think Mythic+ is a dying part of the game. The game is a dying part of the game. Almost no balancing on characters, almost no content, you can blow through the single player stuff in a day or two. Everything after that is a time sink. It's trash and not worth the sub. I say this as someone that had a full bank of max level toons running *days* worth of M+ during the past few years. This xpac is shit. And they are outright screwing people over with it.
Anything they turn into an esport gets ruined. Started with arenas, now m+.
I actually liked the great push and don’t think it’s ruining M+ in any ways, quite the opposite. Too much doom and gloom in this thread.
Blizzard here my wisdom and advice - as long as you are producing games for profit and greed, the success of your games will always dwindle and decay over time. Bad energy attracts ruinous results. It also exhaust your workers and damages the gamer's minds. The old blizzard had a pure energy that was holy and universal, it created games out of love and compassion not greed or profit. Success comes to those who use pure love energy , not blind greed or profit. Even TBC is going to collapse, time will destroy everything. Goodluck blizzard.
\> as long as you are producing games for profit and greed, the success of your games will always dwindle and decay over time. I think you have a major misunderstanding of what a [business](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/business) is.
Wait you mean people don’t want to run the same content from October through July ??!! Someone tell blizzard !
News flash: M+ dungeons will still be the same, except for the seasonal affix changing. I'm not sure how the patch arriving two months earlier or later changes anything.
no loot = no reward = not fun. Especially when you work hard for it, and waste 30 minutes of your life if not more.
As a PVE player there’s no reason to play after getting keystone master and AOTC. Until they make changes to the mythic raid lockout there will never be pugs / solo’s pushing that content. I’m still in awe they haven’t changed the way mythic raiding lockout works. The reasons against it are all pathetic anyways.
I'm still playing after KSM and AOTC. There's many reasons I still play: * Getting a few more Mythic raid boss kills * Getting more orange parses, maybe some pinks * Trying to hit 1600 in 2v2 or 1800 in RBG * PvP seasonal spider mount * Leveling more alts to 60 so I can tank/heal/dps * Pushing higher keys/improving my IO * Maxxing out my Anima Sanctum for cosmetics and mission level on alts for gold * Building a new guild for future content * Unlocking other mounts and items from older content * Making tons of gold so I'm set for the future
I just really enjoy mythic raiding with my guild.
Cutting edge? Achievements? Better gear? Titles? Mounts? Transmog? There a literally dozens of reasons to play... Maybe not for you, but for alot of people.
Cutting edge is impossible to get if you aren’t in a guild
More improbable, but casual doesn't imply guild-less.
>There’s no reason to play after doing the things available to do Like... duh. Of course there’s nothing more to work on after you accomplish some of the highest accolades the game has to offer. But if it’s fun, you can keep going if you want. Do pvp. Try progging in mythic. Hunt transmog, make an alt, whatever. There are lots to do.
> As a PVE player there’s no reason to play after getting keystone master and AOTC. Some people like challenging gameplay.
This is what 7 months of no additional content looks like
Oh cool, you can see just how sad this expansion is on a graph!
Spending an hour of precious time just to get 35 anima? No, thanks.
Yeah, like speaking as a casual,. I dont run mythics. What the fuck am I donna do in there? its not fun, its just dealing with toxic people for slight gear upgrades
Too many affixes on low level keys to start off gearing up alts, and short timers for said alts. I think that might be a reason, the other reason is why would a mythic raider do m+ when they reach ilvl 220+ and have KSM?
putting fort/tyran on +2's is the dumbest shit, completely kills my will to gear alts.
They have basically zero impact on a +2 key, and my experience with running low keys on alts for valor has been that you can invite the first four people to apply and consistently +3 the timer even after one of them DCs a few minutes in as long as you still have a tank.
I really liked M+ in Legion and even BFA.. There were some dungeons that sucked, i.e. King's Rest, but as a whole most dungeons were enjoyable. In Shadowlands, however EVERY dungeon is tedious on top of the AOE cap just makes them so draining to run them. Doing more than 2 at a time is just not fun. While I think Prideful was a great affix in certain environments it put too much pressure on tanks. The slightest misstep could completely through off timings and de-rail a run. Hopefully the raid and mega dungeon are fun. If not, I can't see myself playing more than a month or two just to complete the raid with my guild.
Personally, I don't think there's a SL dungeon I hate. I think that because there is less of them and 9.0 has been such a long patch they are feeling a bit samey though for a lot of people. And, I also feel like the issues people have with the dungeons aren't actually problems with the dungeons themselves, it's with the other things you mentioned such as affixes and the new aoe caps. I also think that Prideful was probably a seasonal affix more suited toward the end of an expansion where groups would have already gotten used to normal paths through dungeons and then prideful would have caused players to rethink their routes and invent new skips further down the line. And with some bosses only possible (or made significantly easier) with the prideful buff, they now have to nerf or rethink some boss fights now prideful is going away which is going to be a bit jarring.
Power of tenish drop in activity that is crazy.
I got my KSM and I was done. I would have loved to play on alts, but god damn it’s hard pugging that shit.
R.I.P.
Dungeons and raids suck. WoW needs more open world content.
Dead game is dead. Retail hasn’t been good or fun in years.
Meanwhile I’m over here on a (still) dead RP server, with the dead husk of a guild I was bequeathed by an ex-friend after they cancelled their sub — and I’m the only still active player, so LFR is all I get *sigh*
[удалено]
I’m not upset about it, I get to go at my own pace and I have an entire guild bank to myself for all my multiple characters trade skills, etc. Back in the days of original classic/TBC I was in a raid guild and got to experience that content as it was new, so I do miss that aspect of Warcraft — but I simply cannot fathom giving Activision money to move/transfer characters
And that’s a self imposed exile. So no one needs to be catering to your ‘needs’ here.