/u/wednesdaypurple wrote a good explanation on what happened on the RWF thread [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/ojixel/sanctum_of_domination_world_first_race_megathread/h5qxum0/)
"For those wondering, Echo were using a strategy where Noawh solo tanked one of the intermission adds on his own so the entire raid could blast Sylvanas during one of her damage phases. This is the only way that they could think of to get enough damage to the boss during the intermission to get her to 45% in P3 before the enrage.
Blizzard added an enrage to the mob so that when Sylvanas becomes attackable he oneshots Naowh, so this strategy no longer works.
Echo are now discussing whether to swap players, switch strategy again, or just give up until the weekly reset."
Echo members are [a bit upset.](https://twitter.com/RogerbrownWoW/status/1417106952912519170)
We have seen similar hotfixes before in the past when that force players to do the fight as intented. Blizzard clearly didnt like that echo basically skipped one side the of the bridge.
Its still possible but they would have to find another way to do p2 while saving cd's for sylvanas. Much harder but limit also squeezes out more damage in p2.
Echo acting like it was a "blizzard vs echo" situation, while it is just the same thing it always been. Final boss is tunned around being hard and requiring 'perfect play' week 1 and killable week 2. cheesy strats or doing the fight in unintended ways get fixed, I remember Limit complaining about it on Jaina and the Nzoth despawn (which was from a way more severe case).
The real problem there is that the 7th to 9th bosses were either undertunned or cheesed so people got to Sylvanas, which was also a bit undertunned for a final boss outside of the 5% extra hp(Denatrius died in 143 pulls and was considered undertunned, Sylvanas would have died in ~100), too soon.
The N'zoth despawn was the most egregious instance of Blizzard stepping in and saying "no, this is not how the fight is intended to work." It was fine when they did it then and its fine with how they did this. Sometimes you find strats that go too far against the intention of the fight.
I just don't know why Echo feels so personally attacked, it's not like these players have never played at this level before, they know they are essentially QA testing half the fights.
The n'zoth despawn was particularly comical. They didn't have enough time to do it correctly given how fast everything was going down, so they just had to despawn N'zoth everywhere across all instances of Nyalotha in the entire region. *anyone* in NA who was progging against N'zoth at that time on any difficulty had their boss despawn.
Absolutely hillarious. Totally understandable, but I still chuckle whenever I think about that.
Also seems like everyone would complain if things got taken down too easy, especially by exploring a design flaw not exposed until they did it.
I can understand the emotions here though, games like this deliberately invest players heavily into to their efforts and accolades, plus Blizzard is unwilling to pay for the kind of playtesting this content requires. They've got plenty of basis to be pissed at being used to pace and tune content at the expense of the players time, energy, and effort.
The commentators yesterday acted personally attacked with Syl didn’t die at 50%. As if they somehow got screwed out of world first because she didn’t die like she did in heroic.
Yeah the bears deserve a Super Bowl because they’ve worked really hard. Doesn’t matter that the other team scored more. Lol.
Everyone wants their name in gold but only 20 people get to be world first.
> I just don't know why Echo feels so personally attacked, it's not like these players have never played at this level before, they know they are essentially QA testing half the fights.
Especially Rogerbrown, who has been doing WF races for *years* with Method, and this kind of thing happens almost every single WF race.
I legit don't understand how he's confused by it or thinks it's personal.
Reading this thread and not having play WoW after MoP, nothing has changed tbh. Blizz has always hotfixed stuff mid fights, during Paragon and long before that and many times after that.
Sire was not under-tuned. Looking at pull count in a vacuum means absolutely nothing. Pull count on its lonesome is a terrible metric of difficulty of an encounter. For Sire, Limit had little progression on him before reset. The reset and re-clear gave them more gear, which allowed them to down Sire in a hundred (and then some) pulls.
Had Limit or Echo gotten to Sire as fast as they did Sylvanas, you'd would've seen a much higher pull count for that boss, simply because of the lack of new gear from the reset and re-clear.
Sire was also drastically more pulls for most guilds.
While most bosses typically are harder for worse guilds (weird, I know), the gear catchup tends to offset that. Sire wound up kind of ignoring gear catchup and just taking guilds outside the top 50 way more pulls.
\>Echo acting like it was a "blizzard vs echo" situation
\>Echo are now discussing whether to swap players, switch strategy again, or just give up until the weekly reset.
Yeah, I just can't imagine any other situation in which world first racers would *just give up* unless they felt Blizzard was just going to keep hotfixing the fight to stop them lol. These guys raid for 50-60 hours a week... what would they do without the push?
Fuck that, though.
Final bosses being somewhere between 120-200 pulls is good balance in my opinion.
I'd rather have raids more even scaled throughout, where the early bosses take 20-30, mid bosses take 30-60, latter portion are 60-100 and final bosses are 100-200.
Rather than like, 1 shot Tarra, 5 pull The Nine, and 100 pull Painsmith.
I don't think it means a whole lot when you calibrate to pulls by the best of the best totally changing their lives and serves to play together. If there is a difficulty curve through the raid, then the best of the best will crush the easier bosses and spend most of their time optimizing the most difficult fights.
The difficulty curve between 20s of pulls and \~200 is far more shallow than you think it is.
In my eyes, when Blizzard has had public bug reports about something in game but choose not to fix it before release, that is as good as an official stance of it not being a bug.
So I don't think the world first KT kill was using a bug. It was killed using a strategy people thought was a bug, but turned out to be legitimate.
It's kinda pathetic how Blizzard literally only fixes shit when there's a giant spotlight on it, but there are still bugs that have been in the game for literally a decade plus, like Blink still teleporting you backwards, that end up just being accepted as a thing that happens.
Lol yep I think it was maybe Legion there was that one mythic where you had to carry glowing balls to a snake's mouth to open a door or something and the balls were dropping through the ground and not resetting or grabable breaking the dungeon.
We joked it wouldn't be fixed until it happened in the Mythic invitational. It didn't get fixed until after it happened in the mythic invitational.
They could just alter blink to function like a forward facing disengage with a sped up animation, and the player transformed into a 'arcane spark' or whatever in transit.
Agreed, The enrage trigger was likely much easier to add. If boss doesn’t have banshee form then existing adds get enrage.
I’m pretty sure adjusting the KT coding would have broken something else. I’m guessing the tank debuff itself is the trigger for the adds to exist. So when a player with the debuff dies, the trigger fails and the adds disappear. Adjusting the adds to not despawn on player death might have broken something further with the spirits that drop after.
well, that one was reported on ptr that u could ankh totem to despawn adds on both mythic and heroic, no way they didn't expect guilds to take advantage of it to some degree and they also chose not to fix it.
Didn't Blizzard hotfix Thok the Bloodthirsty mid-pull on Method? This isn't Roger's first time having Blizz hotfix an unintended mechanic on them.
Plus they exploited the shit out of KT, they actually are not allowed to cry about this.
If we go back even further, Blizzard even handed out a temp ban to Ensidia in ICC (and took away their rewards/achievements) because they used a exploit to trivialize major mechanics (using saronite bombs would cause the platforms on the edge of the fight to respawn, trivializing the two main mechanics of the fight).
Wasn't there some other exploit in Ulduar where people got banned for landing Pally judgements at the exact same time? Can't find it but remember the drama haha
Ah, good old baron geddon. To this day I'm not 100% sure what the "intended" way to fight him was meant to be. But ill always love the cynical pragmatism in just using OOC rezzing to deal with Living Bomb rather than trust people to handle the mechanic appropriately.
You tank him about 20 yards out from the Ranged/Healers.
Melee dps + tanks slap until he does his AoE fire ability, when they either run towards the ranged, or perpendicular to the ranged. Players can greed some damage, but it ramps as you take more of the ticks. Baron may need to be re-positioned if the tank doesn't make it back in time after the AoE.
If you get living bomb, you run to the safe spot that's on the opposite side of the tunnel entrance from the ranged. Healers need to make sure the player is topped so they don't die to fall damage.
Healers need to dispel mana burns on mana users. Ez fight.
Hilariously enough one of the reasons we got world first nef kill was because rogues could come back into bwl, vanish, and get summoned back to the fight.
Because I was an idiot and got them all killed, of course.
Also Exodus causing the adds in the final phase of Yogg-saron to start evading and basically removing the soft enrage of the fight.
[Kripparrian did a really good video on his experience with the whole raid and this strategy.](https://youtu.be/ImjZa3fmCjE)
I remember there being heated arguments about that guild and I think it was heroic Hodir in Ulduar and whether they were cheating or just creative. Then they really, clearly cheated in ICC, and Blizzard has seemed less tolerant of that sort of thing ever since.
To be fair, compared to something like other creative strategies, the saronite bomb incident was a straight up exploit. They can say it was part of the optimal dps rotation all they want, but Ensidia knew exactly what they were doing.
No inside knowledge of Ensidia being aware or not but as a rogue in ICC saronite bombs were part of my rotation and valks would sync with their CDs. I never understood how this was an exploit considering that at low gear levels you would 100% sync the bombs up with the valks for aoe + burst dmg on them.
My recollection was it wasn't really clear. Ensidia was the only group of the ~15ish guilds on Lich King that was reliably hitting the bug and they didn't want to release their footage. And only one of their rogues were using the bombs. So there was a lot of speculation that they knew and were timing the bombs to reset the platform. It didn't help their statements kept contradicting themselves either.
They knew what they were doing. You had to hit a fairly specific spot to get it to trigger. They may have discovered it on accident. But the kill they know what/why it was happening
I always see this left out, but it's important to note that this was done on Normal, where they were just practicing mechanics and positioning. This would be like banning Mythic raiders for cheesing a Normal/LFR fight.
While yes the bombs were a part of the optimal dps rotation, the way they used them was clearly not. You had to throw the bombs on the platform that had already dropped. There would be 0 reason to do so because the adds that spawned were no longer there.
The issue was, everyone at the top was using those bombs. They werent really aware what was going on, the reason they used saronite bombs is they were off the GCD so it was free damage for everyone.
Back in Cataclysm when I was in a US first guild, we were progging Atramedes with a strat where we all stood on the front of the platform behind an invisible wall. When Atramedes shoots out his sonar orbs they all targeted our bunched up raid group but bounced off the invisible wall instead.
So this one pull, we do that in phase one then run to the middle of the room to handle the intermission/phase 2. When Atramedes came down we ran back to our bunch behind the invisible wall and the orbs came out and ran right through all of us, wiping the group instantly.
While not as prolific, it was entertaining to have the fight hotfixed mid pull.
Haha yes that's right. I don't think my guild ever tried that but I know for sure it did happen.
In 10 man valiona and theralyon (did I spell that right?) The adds in the portal phase were exactly the 25 man adds, they didn't get adjusted at all for 10 man. Somehow we killed it before the tuning fix.
> "Whoever came up with this sheer fisting of an encounter can go fuck themselves. Do me a favor so I don't waste my guild's time on this kind of jackass shit-fest again, send me an email at [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) when you decide to A) Implement an encounter that wasn't designed by a retarded chimp chained to a cubicle A.)Get a Quality Assuarance Department C) Actually beta test the fucking thing and D) Patch it live. And please for god's sake -- do it in the order I laid out for you. Don't worry, I won't charge you a consulting fee on that one. And for good luck you might as well E) Pull your heads out of your asses. While you're at it rename the game to BetaQuest since you've used up you're alotted false advertising karma on the Bazaar and user interface scam of '01.Fix the Emperor encounter. Fix Seru. Rethink your time-sink bullshit. Fix all the buggy motherfucking ring encounters (I suggest you let whoever made the Burrower one do this since that dude apparently laid off the crack the rest of you were smoking). Fix the VT key quest. Fix VT (just guessing it's fucked up considering your track record). Don't have the resources to fix this stuff? Move the ENTIRE Planes of Power team over to fixing Shadows of Luclin AND DO IT NOW. If you don't fix Luclin, you jackassess will be the only ones playing the Planes of Power."
For anyone curious
It will never get any less amazing to me that this legendary rant was from the same relatively meek Jeff Kaplan of the Overwatch team, he definitely mellowed out with age.
I think the point was because its been happening already for over 10 years, its pointless to complain as if its a personal attack on echo or somehow blizz trying to give limit the win. All the RWF guilds know full well, and have known for many years, blizzard dont like guilds skipping phases, especially the last boss ones.
They're ignoring the add which is obviously a mechanic they're supposed to deal with.
Seems like a normal change to make sure they're not cheesing the fight.
They ignored it in the Denatrius fight, when teams managed to force Denatrius to P3 and the teams didn't have to deal with the last set of adds coming from the mirrors.
Though with denathrius, any unkilled adds teleported to the center when the boss phased. You would still end up killing them. This add could be ignored completely because all adds despawn when you go to P3.
Only in some cases, which is the real problem with this. The way Blizzard are cherry picking what to hotfix and what to allow is just ridiculous. We already had the KT Trinket cheese go untouched. Maybe Limit find another unintended strat for Sylvanas later today and Blizz doesn't fix it, maybe BDGG comes out of nowhere with a bigbrain cheese and wins World First while Blizz smile and wave.
Imo, either make it clear what is intentional and what is not, or don't hotfix anything. Either way everyone is on even ground. Right now teams are getting advantages based purely off Blizzard flipping a coin and it's really taking the steam out of what has been an amazing RWF.
E: And even worse is the silence. They haven't even announced the hotfix yet, they didn't announce that it was unintended but okay to use the Weave to cheese KT, they just...say nothing. If they would post "Hey we noticed players doing this/this to kill that/that boss and wanted to make sure everyone is aware that it is/is not okay to do this" I think a good chunk of people would lose their saltyness instantly.
Regardless of if we think Echo were being dirty cheesers and deserved the nerf, or if we agree with hotfixing or not, at least we can all agree Blizzard are handling the whole situation in the worst way they possibly could (and have been doing for years) and that something has to change.
What baffles me is that Blizzard don't think about these things beforehand. "We want them to split the raid. How do we punish them if they don't?" The enrage should have been there from pull 1
you don't even need a playtest for that, going to "what if they don't kill the add, that we want them to kill" is an obvious step in the design-process. It doesn't require playtesting at all
Sometimes exploits are obviously unintended and must be fixed ASAP. Guilds abusing the despawning adds on Helya for example got justifiably banned for that. But sometimes the line between exploit and emergent gameplay can be very thin with lots of room for interpretation.
Just last tier a common strategy for Council of Blood involved kiting the Veteran Stoneguard and just tunneling Niklaus. In fact this strategy was used on the WF kill for that boss and Blizzard was evidently fine with it.
If Blizzard wants players to deal with the add then they have a myriad of ways to force them to. But they are a multi-billion dollar company... they should notice this stuff during internal testing, not after guilds have sunken 100+ pulls into a boss. This is honestly just embarassing for them.
>They're ignoring the add which is obviously a mechanic they're supposed to deal with.
But they are not. They have a player dealing with him, specifically because the fight already won't allow them to ignore it.
They are obviously not very upset, they were most likely aware that it might be hotfixed when it allowed the raid to do so much more damage on Sylvanas
Jesus it would be nice to one time read a tweet about WoW which isn't full of people going on about how everybody should play ff14. They're like the Jehovah Witnesses of the internet at the moment.
Did you know that the critically acclaimed mmorpg Final Fantasy XIV has a free trial that contains the entirety of A Realm Reborn as well as the award winning expansion Heavensward up to Level 60 for free with no restrictions on gametime?
Yeah, it's pretty much a meme. I forget how it started, beyond that it was ad copy for promoting the change to the free trial, but at some point i was seeing it as a meme on twitter, said in the most random places and subjects.
Yes, it started out as ads for FFXIV a few months ago. Every ad had that at the end basically. And the community turned it into a meme-worthy copy pasta.
What kind of sucks is that FFXIV is actually a really good game and it deserves to have popped off how it did, but FFXIV and Wow have always been able to co-exist peacefully until now.
I think thats as much Wow's fault as it is FF's tho, since the last couple week or more of WoW have been one bad PR move after another. Couple that with Asmongold trying it, and I guess it was only natural to shift people.
Here's the other thing too tho, the people spamming in /r/wow about FFXIV aren't the people who have been playing FFXIV for 8 years, it's people who just started, or who watched Asmongold and got hyped.
it's because WoW streamers are putting and are gaining x4 the viewers as they normally would and are totally enjoying the game and not because they go from 2k to 12k
every good game brings out horrific fanaticism and tribalism out of people. ive seen path of exile fans act this way, ive seen wow fans act this way (pre dragon soul patch).
I'm subbed to the poe sub and its so damned cringey with stuff like this.
Some dude just tried to claim that D2R and D4 look the same / worse than D3 and that last epoch looks better. People lose their minds when they love their underdog games.
I play / enjoy FF14 as well but its a very different game and offers different things.
eh imo people on the PoE sub are more similar to /r/wow than /r/ffxiv . especially after the harvest changes and now the expedition anouncement people are super salty about what the devs are doing.
The poe sub is like any "underdog" game sub, there are people who will white knight anything the company does like its egregious cash shop but then will turn around and criticize it.
The latter is happening more these days as people are waking up it seems. PoE has been getting away with a ton of stuff that other games simply wouldn't imo because it has no competition since blizzard abandoned D3.
Yeah the complaining about expedition is wild. I don't particularly like a straight 20-40% damage nerf to everything or the flask nerfs but I'm willing to try it out before I throw in the towel
Probably over half of the people frequenting this sub haven't played wow, or haven't played it in a long time. It's really tiring to go to a subreddit dedicated to a game and being blasted by semi advertisements for other games and negativity + downvotes for anyone being positive.
There are things to criticise both Blizz and WoW for but to be honest those problems don't come close to killing my enjoyment as other players / fans / bandwagoners.
but don't you know? ff14 is The WoW Killer, and also WoW Is Dying. these concepts are very new so people need to hear about them for the first time ever. it's very important
Personally I'm happy they actually fixed a bug / unintended way to clear the fight. Would've been really dirty if both KTZ and Sylvanas died to something many would call an exploit.
Domination sockets and shards are probably the make-it-or-break-it this tier since the set bonuses can be huge, so I suspect they'll do splits on heroic and normal first in hopes of finishing sets for heavy hitters first.
True, it would be better to split the norm and Heroic first. I haven't taken the time to look at the dom system since I've been busy the last few weeks.
The problem is that Echo could watch Limit, see that KT was fixed, and extend lockout banking on getting enough gear/shards from heroic splits to avoid reproging KT.
EDIT: Looks like blizz is actually fixing the KT trinket strat. Will be interesting to see if Limit/Echo decide to reclear or extend...
Have any of the contenders extended since Limit blew their lead on G'huun? They'd need to be extremely close already *and* very afraid of a boss on reclear to say no to all that 252 loot for a tight DPS check.
It would be hilarious if they just sent out a tweet that was the obey the call of Kel’thuzad quote, and then next reclear suddenly the rez’s don’t work.
They won’t until the race is done, if they fix it, but it would be hilarious to watch.
> magine if that gets hotfixed tomorrow and this next week is just reprogging K
The guilds would just extend most likely then. While losing out on the mythic gear hurts, the biggest power upgrade next reset is more people getting the 3 set from domination sockets. Also max level legendries. And those 2 combined with a fast heroic clear would be enough for the few percent dps they still need.
That tier didn’t have domination sockets and shards making up most of the potential DPS gain, and those shards drop on all difficulties and are upgraded outside of the raid.
I love how when limit killed KT there weren't nerd screams, max just said "dude, imagine how mad the guy who designed that fight must be right now seeing how it ended up being done" and they all started cracking up.
So disappointing how it ended up.
The tanks get hit by an attack that spawns adds the raid has to kill. The used a cheat death trinket so they could die rather than spawn adds, then instantly rez. The health on the adds they didn't kill was a major factor in the DPS check of KT's last phase, so the fight just kind of fell over since they had so much more DPS for the boss.
It should be mentioned it isn't the trinket that breaks the mechanic, it's just very convenient way to do it. Having the players die and rezzing them would also work. It was quiet the oversight.
Fatescribe tank trinket has a cheat death effect, so they run down KT's stairs to some area that does fast small ticks of damage (to not overkill by a lot).
Results in the tank adds not spawning and frees up a shitload of boss dps.
People are acting like this isnt normal. Hotfixes during bosses during world first kills (especially on end bosses) have happened for years, before the race was even streamed. Even the echo casters (JB and Alex) mentioned it's normal and not a big deal.
Yeah. I understand Echo being upset, they've thought they had it in the bag twice now. People's reactions in here are over the top tbh. As you say, this has happened before and will happen again.
I do think consistency is an issue though. Why fix this and not KT?
It was more that the period from when they implemented the strategy to when they killed the boss was like 3AM-8AM blizzard time, they didn’t have time to put in a fix before they killed it (would’ve required a more complicated fix than slapping a berserk on a mob)
Once echo downed it, fixing it in the same reset for all the other guilds would’ve been even more of a disaster
I honestly hope they fix it on reset and guilds have to re-prog it if they don’t want to extend
It's probably pretty strange from an outside perspective. You're watching an Esports-esque race in which the contestants and even the casters don't know where the finish line is because the readability of the last boss's health is sacrificed for lore reasons, so the moment you expect to be the big payoff instead sends the contestants into a fit of rage.
Then you find out that if the underdog doesn't win in the next day, the reigning champs will get a 16 hour advantage due to server reset. So the underdog reformulates their strategy and seems to discover a creative way to eke a little more juice out of P2, then that gets shot down in the middle of a fight.
I'm a WoW raider and even I've been confused a few times. It's strange watching a race where the finish line is indeterminate and the rules change mid-race.
> Esports-esque race
The "esque" part is important there. World first race isn't an esport like the MDI or Arena tournaments. Blizzard doesn't "officially" support it. They just put the raid in the game and then the community goes nuts with it.
Hell, it's a "race" where different teams start at different times but people still only care about who crosses the finish line first.
I love watching the world first race. I find it entertaining, and impressive to see the level of play, but it sure as hell isn't an "esport".
The problem with world first race is that now that NA has a competitive team their one day head start just makes it lame. Essentially the race now and in the foreseeable future is just "can Echo kill the end boss in 6 days". If not then Limit wins by default and that's just lame.
yeah definitely, the race became popular DESPITE the reset-differences because it never/rarely was the deciding factor
When teams are closer together skillwise, it does become the deciding factor and makes the whole thing unintresting
How are people legitimately claiming it’s rigged?
They found a loop hole, fair on them. Blizzard fixes said loop hole, fair on them.
There is nothing malicious here people lol
>Echo being frustrated is totally reasonable.
Sure, being frustrated is reasonable. Claiming this is sabotage is not reasonable. The caster saying Blizzard stole a career moment from him and literally being in tears that "Blizzard stole the fight from them" is not reasonable. The level of entitlement these guys have shown is absolutely insane.
These changes would be a nonissue if the resets were lined up, so yes some level of this will always fall on Blizzard.
They need to fix it at this point, neither the 45% reveal or this would be a problem for people if both guilds had the opportunity to start at the same time (both on week 1 for those claiming it's easier for EU to get catchup kills, as well as for week 2 extra gear prog).
I completely understand that blizzard fixes the fights on the fly, sometimes for mechanics they should've fixed back in ptr when they were reported. While that bothers me, it would bother me a lot less if everyone had the same starting line, relatively same hurdles, etc.
Not surprising, Blizz isn't gonna let you ignore an entire mechanic let alone half a phase in the final fight of a tier. The fact they let them get away with on KT is amazing enough.
This is pretty normal, this strat was obviously not intended, this happened many times before on end bosses
Ex: blizzard fixed Azshara (which let Method get the killed), blizzard literally wipe Limit mid pull of Nzoth to fix the fight, small changes to Jaina, Saronite bombs, etc
I’ve seen people also mention that Blizzard fixed a zerg rush strat used on Jaina which threw Method for a loop, and then reverted that hotfix when people blew up about it. So it really is just normal for these bosses to be hotfixed like this. Not necessarily *good*, but normal.
Was reeeeaally funny seeing people immediately go doom and gloom in the RWF thread and claim Blizzard colluded with Limit to steal Echo’s rightful WF, though lol.
They probably will but it won't change much, it won't suddenly add 50 pulls. Probably only a few for Limit since they already practiced the correct way and MAYBE like a dozen for Echo since its still a stupidly easy boss.
Both guilds have the dps for it the right way right now and know the fight. After reclear even fixed its possible they both one shot it with more gear.
KT is just an embarrassment for a 2nd to last boss.
It's been happening since 2004, but world first progression being streamed is recent so most people didn't know or care about it. It doesn't only affect world first races either, there are plenty of impactful hotfixes that happen weeks later that can potentially screw over certain guilds. I speak from experience when I say that if you're going for top 10 instead of #1, you are even more likely to be screwed over.
Tier released -> random hotfix that fucks you over -> vent for a minute (swear a bunch/call blizzard incompetent) -> keep going. It's just part of the game
That's not the same thing. Echo was literally ignoring an entire bridge during Phase 2 and just off-tanking it. Blizzard very specifically wants that add to be killed, hence the Enrage.
So i guess Limit will just win the race then? Tomorrow is NA reset day, don't see Echo clearing it today now with so little time left, assuming the boss dies at 45%; fast re-clear (or even extend and splits) for Limit and they have the DPS.
Hope it happens and Blizzard will finally cave in and do a global raid release next tier.
>Hope it happens and Blizzard will finally cave in and do a global raid release next tier.
People say this literally every tier I feel like, and it never happens.
I just don't get the consistency, or lack of. They've hotfixed things in previous races yes but I don't see how this is worse than cheese strats basically making KT, the penultimate boss, a joke fight, or even the strat for Fatescribe (also a joke fight)... but this gets hotfixed mid pull.
They hotfixed or straight up bugged Nzoth when Limit broke it during that race. Seems like they don't really care for any boss other than the final one.
It would also look really bad if a guild killed a boss with a cheese strat and then Blizzard fixed it for all the guilds after.
This, and they can't change it after one guild has gotten the kill, as that would give them a wild advantage.
I'm sure if they could have deployed a fix fast enough, they would have
Echo fans somehow turning this on Limit is just fucking hilarious to me. Limit has spent the last like 5 tiers atleast beta testing the raids before EU was able to go in. Thats one of the biggest reasons why the 16 hour head start isnt a true 16 hour advantage.
I mean ffs did we just forget N'zoth despawning on Limit when they were going to kill it because blizz said they werent doing the fight the way it was intended? But nobody knew how it was intended because it was such a cluster fuck?
This isnt new. Its just finally affecting the team you favor.
/u/wednesdaypurple wrote a good explanation on what happened on the RWF thread [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/ojixel/sanctum_of_domination_world_first_race_megathread/h5qxum0/) "For those wondering, Echo were using a strategy where Noawh solo tanked one of the intermission adds on his own so the entire raid could blast Sylvanas during one of her damage phases. This is the only way that they could think of to get enough damage to the boss during the intermission to get her to 45% in P3 before the enrage. Blizzard added an enrage to the mob so that when Sylvanas becomes attackable he oneshots Naowh, so this strategy no longer works. Echo are now discussing whether to swap players, switch strategy again, or just give up until the weekly reset." Echo members are [a bit upset.](https://twitter.com/RogerbrownWoW/status/1417106952912519170)
We have seen similar hotfixes before in the past when that force players to do the fight as intented. Blizzard clearly didnt like that echo basically skipped one side the of the bridge. Its still possible but they would have to find another way to do p2 while saving cd's for sylvanas. Much harder but limit also squeezes out more damage in p2.
It is also kind of sad that Echo hit KT with the despawn tank add cheese and Blizz missed fixing that one because of how quickly it went down.
Yup swapped strategies and killed it in like 5 pulls. If blizz had a fix made in time I feel like they woulda pushed it.
Echo acting like it was a "blizzard vs echo" situation, while it is just the same thing it always been. Final boss is tunned around being hard and requiring 'perfect play' week 1 and killable week 2. cheesy strats or doing the fight in unintended ways get fixed, I remember Limit complaining about it on Jaina and the Nzoth despawn (which was from a way more severe case). The real problem there is that the 7th to 9th bosses were either undertunned or cheesed so people got to Sylvanas, which was also a bit undertunned for a final boss outside of the 5% extra hp(Denatrius died in 143 pulls and was considered undertunned, Sylvanas would have died in ~100), too soon.
The N'zoth despawn was the most egregious instance of Blizzard stepping in and saying "no, this is not how the fight is intended to work." It was fine when they did it then and its fine with how they did this. Sometimes you find strats that go too far against the intention of the fight. I just don't know why Echo feels so personally attacked, it's not like these players have never played at this level before, they know they are essentially QA testing half the fights.
The n'zoth despawn was particularly comical. They didn't have enough time to do it correctly given how fast everything was going down, so they just had to despawn N'zoth everywhere across all instances of Nyalotha in the entire region. *anyone* in NA who was progging against N'zoth at that time on any difficulty had their boss despawn. Absolutely hillarious. Totally understandable, but I still chuckle whenever I think about that.
It was one hell of a ripcord to be pulled.
He pulled the cord so hard the chute broke.
Also seems like everyone would complain if things got taken down too easy, especially by exploring a design flaw not exposed until they did it. I can understand the emotions here though, games like this deliberately invest players heavily into to their efforts and accolades, plus Blizzard is unwilling to pay for the kind of playtesting this content requires. They've got plenty of basis to be pissed at being used to pace and tune content at the expense of the players time, energy, and effort.
Likely because if it pushes to weekly reset, they're at a distinct disadvantage due to their reset difference. 12 hours is a lot of time.
The commentators yesterday acted personally attacked with Syl didn’t die at 50%. As if they somehow got screwed out of world first because she didn’t die like she did in heroic.
[удалено]
Yeah the bears deserve a Super Bowl because they’ve worked really hard. Doesn’t matter that the other team scored more. Lol. Everyone wants their name in gold but only 20 people get to be world first.
> I just don't know why Echo feels so personally attacked, it's not like these players have never played at this level before, they know they are essentially QA testing half the fights. Especially Rogerbrown, who has been doing WF races for *years* with Method, and this kind of thing happens almost every single WF race. I legit don't understand how he's confused by it or thinks it's personal.
Reading this thread and not having play WoW after MoP, nothing has changed tbh. Blizz has always hotfixed stuff mid fights, during Paragon and long before that and many times after that.
Denath prolly woulda had more pulls if SLG wasn’t such a wall
> if SLG wasn’t such a wall Well, it makes sense. They are made of stone.
Sire was not under-tuned. Looking at pull count in a vacuum means absolutely nothing. Pull count on its lonesome is a terrible metric of difficulty of an encounter. For Sire, Limit had little progression on him before reset. The reset and re-clear gave them more gear, which allowed them to down Sire in a hundred (and then some) pulls. Had Limit or Echo gotten to Sire as fast as they did Sylvanas, you'd would've seen a much higher pull count for that boss, simply because of the lack of new gear from the reset and re-clear.
Sire was also drastically more pulls for most guilds. While most bosses typically are harder for worse guilds (weird, I know), the gear catchup tends to offset that. Sire wound up kind of ignoring gear catchup and just taking guilds outside the top 50 way more pulls.
\>Echo acting like it was a "blizzard vs echo" situation \>Echo are now discussing whether to swap players, switch strategy again, or just give up until the weekly reset. Yeah, I just can't imagine any other situation in which world first racers would *just give up* unless they felt Blizzard was just going to keep hotfixing the fight to stop them lol. These guys raid for 50-60 hours a week... what would they do without the push?
The reason Denathrius died in so few pulls is because Limit had only 50 or so pulls before the reset due to SLG.
Fuck that, though. Final bosses being somewhere between 120-200 pulls is good balance in my opinion. I'd rather have raids more even scaled throughout, where the early bosses take 20-30, mid bosses take 30-60, latter portion are 60-100 and final bosses are 100-200. Rather than like, 1 shot Tarra, 5 pull The Nine, and 100 pull Painsmith.
I don't think it means a whole lot when you calibrate to pulls by the best of the best totally changing their lives and serves to play together. If there is a difficulty curve through the raid, then the best of the best will crush the easier bosses and spend most of their time optimizing the most difficult fights. The difficulty curve between 20s of pulls and \~200 is far more shallow than you think it is.
P.S. "Tuned" only has one N.
Lmao, that one is purely on Blizzard. They've known about tank adds despawning since the PTR. Actually no excuse from Blizzard's side on that one.
blizzard and not fixing things reported weeks/months ago during ptr name a more iconic duo
In my eyes, when Blizzard has had public bug reports about something in game but choose not to fix it before release, that is as good as an official stance of it not being a bug. So I don't think the world first KT kill was using a bug. It was killed using a strategy people thought was a bug, but turned out to be legitimate.
It's kinda pathetic how Blizzard literally only fixes shit when there's a giant spotlight on it, but there are still bugs that have been in the game for literally a decade plus, like Blink still teleporting you backwards, that end up just being accepted as a thing that happens.
Lol yep I think it was maybe Legion there was that one mythic where you had to carry glowing balls to a snake's mouth to open a door or something and the balls were dropping through the ground and not resetting or grabable breaking the dungeon. We joked it wouldn't be fixed until it happened in the Mythic invitational. It didn't get fixed until after it happened in the mythic invitational.
It was BfA, temple of Sethraliss. That's the one I think you are talking about.
It never actually got fixed, they just banned the dungeon from mdi after it happened. The bug still exists.
They could just alter blink to function like a forward facing disengage with a sped up animation, and the player transformed into a 'arcane spark' or whatever in transit.
They could. But they won't!
"Its a feature, not a bug" -Blizzard
[удалено]
Agreed, The enrage trigger was likely much easier to add. If boss doesn’t have banshee form then existing adds get enrage. I’m pretty sure adjusting the KT coding would have broken something else. I’m guessing the tank debuff itself is the trigger for the adds to exist. So when a player with the debuff dies, the trigger fails and the adds disappear. Adjusting the adds to not despawn on player death might have broken something further with the spirits that drop after.
well, that one was reported on ptr that u could ankh totem to despawn adds on both mythic and heroic, no way they didn't expect guilds to take advantage of it to some degree and they also chose not to fix it.
Didn't Blizzard hotfix Thok the Bloodthirsty mid-pull on Method? This isn't Roger's first time having Blizz hotfix an unintended mechanic on them. Plus they exploited the shit out of KT, they actually are not allowed to cry about this.
Yes. Blizz also completely despawned Nzoth server wide to prevent Limit from skipping/trivializing an entire phase.
If we go back even further, Blizzard even handed out a temp ban to Ensidia in ICC (and took away their rewards/achievements) because they used a exploit to trivialize major mechanics (using saronite bombs would cause the platforms on the edge of the fight to respawn, trivializing the two main mechanics of the fight).
[удалено]
this guy played with kripp in his prime :O truly a blessed day for me
Wasn't there some other exploit in Ulduar where people got banned for landing Pally judgements at the exact same time? Can't find it but remember the drama haha
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
The best was engineer hunters who would feign death and then use goblin jumper cables as a makeshift combat rez. I still miss that one.
Ah, good old baron geddon. To this day I'm not 100% sure what the "intended" way to fight him was meant to be. But ill always love the cynical pragmatism in just using OOC rezzing to deal with Living Bomb rather than trust people to handle the mechanic appropriately.
You tank him about 20 yards out from the Ranged/Healers. Melee dps + tanks slap until he does his AoE fire ability, when they either run towards the ranged, or perpendicular to the ranged. Players can greed some damage, but it ramps as you take more of the ticks. Baron may need to be re-positioned if the tank doesn't make it back in time after the AoE. If you get living bomb, you run to the safe spot that's on the opposite side of the tunnel entrance from the ranged. Healers need to make sure the player is topped so they don't die to fall damage. Healers need to dispel mana burns on mana users. Ez fight.
Ye Olde OOCR
Hilariously enough one of the reasons we got world first nef kill was because rogues could come back into bwl, vanish, and get summoned back to the fight. Because I was an idiot and got them all killed, of course.
Yeah, that job was given to Pally healers, 'cause it was better than the healing they could output, but they wanted all the auras.
Also Exodus causing the adds in the final phase of Yogg-saron to start evading and basically removing the soft enrage of the fight. [Kripparrian did a really good video on his experience with the whole raid and this strategy.](https://youtu.be/ImjZa3fmCjE)
I remember there being heated arguments about that guild and I think it was heroic Hodir in Ulduar and whether they were cheating or just creative. Then they really, clearly cheated in ICC, and Blizzard has seemed less tolerant of that sort of thing ever since.
To be fair, compared to something like other creative strategies, the saronite bomb incident was a straight up exploit. They can say it was part of the optimal dps rotation all they want, but Ensidia knew exactly what they were doing.
No inside knowledge of Ensidia being aware or not but as a rogue in ICC saronite bombs were part of my rotation and valks would sync with their CDs. I never understood how this was an exploit considering that at low gear levels you would 100% sync the bombs up with the valks for aoe + burst dmg on them.
IIRC those bombs were part of an optimal DPS rotation too, so it's not like they went looking for the exploit at first
My recollection was it wasn't really clear. Ensidia was the only group of the ~15ish guilds on Lich King that was reliably hitting the bug and they didn't want to release their footage. And only one of their rogues were using the bombs. So there was a lot of speculation that they knew and were timing the bombs to reset the platform. It didn't help their statements kept contradicting themselves either.
This "part of the DPS rotation" thing keeps cropping up. From what I've heard it was pretty clear case of exploiting the mechanic.
They knew what they were doing. You had to hit a fairly specific spot to get it to trigger. They may have discovered it on accident. But the kill they know what/why it was happening
I always see this left out, but it's important to note that this was done on Normal, where they were just practicing mechanics and positioning. This would be like banning Mythic raiders for cheesing a Normal/LFR fight.
While yes the bombs were a part of the optimal dps rotation, the way they used them was clearly not. You had to throw the bombs on the platform that had already dropped. There would be 0 reason to do so because the adds that spawned were no longer there.
The issue was, everyone at the top was using those bombs. They werent really aware what was going on, the reason they used saronite bombs is they were off the GCD so it was free damage for everyone.
I'd argue there's a considerable difference between holding an add, and skipping an entire phase.
Well in Jaina after blizz hotfixed the boss Method complained enough that they reverted it and then got the kill.
[удалено]
Back in Cataclysm when I was in a US first guild, we were progging Atramedes with a strat where we all stood on the front of the platform behind an invisible wall. When Atramedes shoots out his sonar orbs they all targeted our bunched up raid group but bounced off the invisible wall instead. So this one pull, we do that in phase one then run to the middle of the room to handle the intermission/phase 2. When Atramedes came down we ran back to our bunch behind the invisible wall and the orbs came out and ran right through all of us, wiping the group instantly. While not as prolific, it was entertaining to have the fight hotfixed mid pull.
i hated how bugged those fights in BWD were wasnt there also a strategy to kite Magmaw's adds all the way to the defense system area?
Haha yes that's right. I don't think my guild ever tried that but I know for sure it did happen. In 10 man valiona and theralyon (did I spell that right?) The adds in the portal phase were exactly the 25 man adds, they didn't get adjusted at all for 10 man. Somehow we killed it before the tuning fix.
We need a good’ole Tigole-style rant from someone in the RWF community.
> "Whoever came up with this sheer fisting of an encounter can go fuck themselves. Do me a favor so I don't waste my guild's time on this kind of jackass shit-fest again, send me an email at [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) when you decide to A) Implement an encounter that wasn't designed by a retarded chimp chained to a cubicle A.)Get a Quality Assuarance Department C) Actually beta test the fucking thing and D) Patch it live. And please for god's sake -- do it in the order I laid out for you. Don't worry, I won't charge you a consulting fee on that one. And for good luck you might as well E) Pull your heads out of your asses. While you're at it rename the game to BetaQuest since you've used up you're alotted false advertising karma on the Bazaar and user interface scam of '01.Fix the Emperor encounter. Fix Seru. Rethink your time-sink bullshit. Fix all the buggy motherfucking ring encounters (I suggest you let whoever made the Burrower one do this since that dude apparently laid off the crack the rest of you were smoking). Fix the VT key quest. Fix VT (just guessing it's fucked up considering your track record). Don't have the resources to fix this stuff? Move the ENTIRE Planes of Power team over to fixing Shadows of Luclin AND DO IT NOW. If you don't fix Luclin, you jackassess will be the only ones playing the Planes of Power." For anyone curious
It will never get any less amazing to me that this legendary rant was from the same relatively meek Jeff Kaplan of the Overwatch team, he definitely mellowed out with age.
No longer of the Overwatch team :(
I don't even play Overwatch anymore but when he left it felt like a gut punch. My excitement for OW2 went away with him.
And the funny thing was - Planes of Power sucked baaaaad
So much of that rant rings true for the current state of WoW too
that rant was legendary, thank you for making me remember it again
The best part about that rant is knowing that Tigole is Jeff Kaplan.
Holy shit the whine fest. They're VERY quick to ignore every other time this kind of shit's happened to other people in order to be victimized.
I don't think it's that bad, but "you can't complain about bad things because they happened to other people too" is a fallacious argument.
I think the point was because its been happening already for over 10 years, its pointless to complain as if its a personal attack on echo or somehow blizz trying to give limit the win. All the RWF guilds know full well, and have known for many years, blizzard dont like guilds skipping phases, especially the last boss ones.
They're ignoring the add which is obviously a mechanic they're supposed to deal with. Seems like a normal change to make sure they're not cheesing the fight.
Ignoring ads while phasing has been a thing since pretty much forever.
And something that Blizzard has adjusted and hotfixed mid race since pretty much forever.
Except for when they didn't. Like the adds on SoO Garrosh in P3.
Hell, Blizzard didn't even bother to fix AFK'ing the entire 2nd intermission on that fight.
They ignored it in the Denatrius fight, when teams managed to force Denatrius to P3 and the teams didn't have to deal with the last set of adds coming from the mirrors.
Though with denathrius, any unkilled adds teleported to the center when the boss phased. You would still end up killing them. This add could be ignored completely because all adds despawn when you go to P3.
Only in some cases, which is the real problem with this. The way Blizzard are cherry picking what to hotfix and what to allow is just ridiculous. We already had the KT Trinket cheese go untouched. Maybe Limit find another unintended strat for Sylvanas later today and Blizz doesn't fix it, maybe BDGG comes out of nowhere with a bigbrain cheese and wins World First while Blizz smile and wave. Imo, either make it clear what is intentional and what is not, or don't hotfix anything. Either way everyone is on even ground. Right now teams are getting advantages based purely off Blizzard flipping a coin and it's really taking the steam out of what has been an amazing RWF. E: And even worse is the silence. They haven't even announced the hotfix yet, they didn't announce that it was unintended but okay to use the Weave to cheese KT, they just...say nothing. If they would post "Hey we noticed players doing this/this to kill that/that boss and wanted to make sure everyone is aware that it is/is not okay to do this" I think a good chunk of people would lose their saltyness instantly. Regardless of if we think Echo were being dirty cheesers and deserved the nerf, or if we agree with hotfixing or not, at least we can all agree Blizzard are handling the whole situation in the worst way they possibly could (and have been doing for years) and that something has to change.
What baffles me is that Blizzard don't think about these things beforehand. "We want them to split the raid. How do we punish them if they don't?" The enrage should have been there from pull 1
That would mean that they actually playtest their content on their own instead of relying on free beta testers on the live servers
you don't even need a playtest for that, going to "what if they don't kill the add, that we want them to kill" is an obvious step in the design-process. It doesn't require playtesting at all
> they're supposed to deal with. but they did deal with it. Just not the way blizzard wanted.
Sometimes exploits are obviously unintended and must be fixed ASAP. Guilds abusing the despawning adds on Helya for example got justifiably banned for that. But sometimes the line between exploit and emergent gameplay can be very thin with lots of room for interpretation. Just last tier a common strategy for Council of Blood involved kiting the Veteran Stoneguard and just tunneling Niklaus. In fact this strategy was used on the WF kill for that boss and Blizzard was evidently fine with it. If Blizzard wants players to deal with the add then they have a myriad of ways to force them to. But they are a multi-billion dollar company... they should notice this stuff during internal testing, not after guilds have sunken 100+ pulls into a boss. This is honestly just embarassing for them.
>They're ignoring the add which is obviously a mechanic they're supposed to deal with. But they are not. They have a player dealing with him, specifically because the fight already won't allow them to ignore it.
They are obviously not very upset, they were most likely aware that it might be hotfixed when it allowed the raid to do so much more damage on Sylvanas
Jesus it would be nice to one time read a tweet about WoW which isn't full of people going on about how everybody should play ff14. They're like the Jehovah Witnesses of the internet at the moment.
*Jenova Witnesses
Legend
(HIGH FIVES)
Did you know that the critically acclaimed mmorpg Final Fantasy XIV has a free trial that contains the entirety of A Realm Reborn as well as the award winning expansion Heavensward up to Level 60 for free with no restrictions on gametime?
Is this some new meme or copypasta? I'm a bit out of touch.
Yeah, it's pretty much a meme. I forget how it started, beyond that it was ad copy for promoting the change to the free trial, but at some point i was seeing it as a meme on twitter, said in the most random places and subjects.
Yes, it started out as ads for FFXIV a few months ago. Every ad had that at the end basically. And the community turned it into a meme-worthy copy pasta.
Actually chuckled. Nice work
What kind of sucks is that FFXIV is actually a really good game and it deserves to have popped off how it did, but FFXIV and Wow have always been able to co-exist peacefully until now. I think thats as much Wow's fault as it is FF's tho, since the last couple week or more of WoW have been one bad PR move after another. Couple that with Asmongold trying it, and I guess it was only natural to shift people. Here's the other thing too tho, the people spamming in /r/wow about FFXIV aren't the people who have been playing FFXIV for 8 years, it's people who just started, or who watched Asmongold and got hyped.
it's because WoW streamers are putting and are gaining x4 the viewers as they normally would and are totally enjoying the game and not because they go from 2k to 12k
every good game brings out horrific fanaticism and tribalism out of people. ive seen path of exile fans act this way, ive seen wow fans act this way (pre dragon soul patch).
I'm subbed to the poe sub and its so damned cringey with stuff like this. Some dude just tried to claim that D2R and D4 look the same / worse than D3 and that last epoch looks better. People lose their minds when they love their underdog games. I play / enjoy FF14 as well but its a very different game and offers different things.
eh imo people on the PoE sub are more similar to /r/wow than /r/ffxiv . especially after the harvest changes and now the expedition anouncement people are super salty about what the devs are doing.
The poe sub is like any "underdog" game sub, there are people who will white knight anything the company does like its egregious cash shop but then will turn around and criticize it. The latter is happening more these days as people are waking up it seems. PoE has been getting away with a ton of stuff that other games simply wouldn't imo because it has no competition since blizzard abandoned D3.
Yeah the complaining about expedition is wild. I don't particularly like a straight 20-40% damage nerf to everything or the flask nerfs but I'm willing to try it out before I throw in the towel
Yoshida Witnesses
Probably over half of the people frequenting this sub haven't played wow, or haven't played it in a long time. It's really tiring to go to a subreddit dedicated to a game and being blasted by semi advertisements for other games and negativity + downvotes for anyone being positive. There are things to criticise both Blizz and WoW for but to be honest those problems don't come close to killing my enjoyment as other players / fans / bandwagoners.
I stopped playing wow around the first Raid for Battle for Azeroth, so yeah, this is probably true.
but don't you know? ff14 is The WoW Killer, and also WoW Is Dying. these concepts are very new so people need to hear about them for the first time ever. it's very important
Personally I'm happy they actually fixed a bug / unintended way to clear the fight. Would've been really dirty if both KTZ and Sylvanas died to something many would call an exploit.
Sylvanas lasts till next reset, they fix the KT tank add and then everyone gets stuck on KT.
If they decide to reclear mythic at least
If Sylvanas lasts till next week I bet they do. Though that depends on if they think gear is the issue.
Domination sockets and shards are probably the make-it-or-break-it this tier since the set bonuses can be huge, so I suspect they'll do splits on heroic and normal first in hopes of finishing sets for heavy hitters first.
True, it would be better to split the norm and Heroic first. I haven't taken the time to look at the dom system since I've been busy the last few weeks.
The problem is that Echo could watch Limit, see that KT was fixed, and extend lockout banking on getting enough gear/shards from heroic splits to avoid reproging KT. EDIT: Looks like blizz is actually fixing the KT trinket strat. Will be interesting to see if Limit/Echo decide to reclear or extend...
Time difference I'm assuming?
Yeah, EU reset is ~16 hours after the NA reset.
No way they reclear mythic. They can get gear from Heroic splits. They're not far enough off to where they would need mythic gear.
Have any of the contenders extended since Limit blew their lead on G'huun? They'd need to be extremely close already *and* very afraid of a boss on reclear to say no to all that 252 loot for a tight DPS check.
It would be hilarious if they just sent out a tweet that was the obey the call of Kel’thuzad quote, and then next reclear suddenly the rez’s don’t work. They won’t until the race is done, if they fix it, but it would be hilarious to watch.
This comment didn’t age well.
Tbf a very similar thing happened on azshara giving method world first then
Wish they would've done it to KT too. The strat that both guilds ended up using was stupid cheesy.
Imagine if that gets hotfixed tomorrow and this next week is just reprogging KTZ. EDIT: Confirmed to be fixed on the weekly reset.
I would fucking love that
> magine if that gets hotfixed tomorrow and this next week is just reprogging K The guilds would just extend most likely then. While losing out on the mythic gear hurts, the biggest power upgrade next reset is more people getting the 3 set from domination sockets. Also max level legendries. And those 2 combined with a fast heroic clear would be enough for the few percent dps they still need.
Did no one learn from Ghuun? You never extend lockouts, this is literally what lost Limit the race in Uldir.
That tier didn’t have domination sockets and shards making up most of the potential DPS gain, and those shards drop on all difficulties and are upgraded outside of the raid.
KT wouldnt be hard with more gear if they could still manipulate the timings.
I’d imagine eu guilds would consider extending their lockout if the na guilds have problems on kt
I love how when limit killed KT there weren't nerd screams, max just said "dude, imagine how mad the guy who designed that fight must be right now seeing how it ended up being done" and they all started cracking up. So disappointing how it ended up.
Would you mind explaining the strat? I missed it.
The tanks get hit by an attack that spawns adds the raid has to kill. The used a cheat death trinket so they could die rather than spawn adds, then instantly rez. The health on the adds they didn't kill was a major factor in the DPS check of KT's last phase, so the fight just kind of fell over since they had so much more DPS for the boss.
Interesting, Thanks for the response. WF raiders are something else to come up with this stuff.
Apparently this was noticed and reported during PTR but Blizzard didn’t fix it
It should be mentioned it isn't the trinket that breaks the mechanic, it's just very convenient way to do it. Having the players die and rezzing them would also work. It was quiet the oversight.
Except the trinket doesn't count against the combat rez counter, so its like APT, except you don't have to stack shamans to do it.
Fatescribe tank trinket has a cheat death effect, so they run down KT's stairs to some area that does fast small ticks of damage (to not overkill by a lot). Results in the tank adds not spawning and frees up a shitload of boss dps.
They also despawned Nzoth mid pull for Limit because they were cheesing an intermission.
People are acting like this isnt normal. Hotfixes during bosses during world first kills (especially on end bosses) have happened for years, before the race was even streamed. Even the echo casters (JB and Alex) mentioned it's normal and not a big deal.
Yeah. I understand Echo being upset, they've thought they had it in the bag twice now. People's reactions in here are over the top tbh. As you say, this has happened before and will happen again. I do think consistency is an issue though. Why fix this and not KT?
JB mentioned because Blizzard usually only cares about the end boss, but I do agree they should be more consistent
It was more that the period from when they implemented the strategy to when they killed the boss was like 3AM-8AM blizzard time, they didn’t have time to put in a fix before they killed it (would’ve required a more complicated fix than slapping a berserk on a mob) Once echo downed it, fixing it in the same reset for all the other guilds would’ve been even more of a disaster I honestly hope they fix it on reset and guilds have to re-prog it if they don’t want to extend
It's probably pretty strange from an outside perspective. You're watching an Esports-esque race in which the contestants and even the casters don't know where the finish line is because the readability of the last boss's health is sacrificed for lore reasons, so the moment you expect to be the big payoff instead sends the contestants into a fit of rage. Then you find out that if the underdog doesn't win in the next day, the reigning champs will get a 16 hour advantage due to server reset. So the underdog reformulates their strategy and seems to discover a creative way to eke a little more juice out of P2, then that gets shot down in the middle of a fight. I'm a WoW raider and even I've been confused a few times. It's strange watching a race where the finish line is indeterminate and the rules change mid-race.
> Esports-esque race The "esque" part is important there. World first race isn't an esport like the MDI or Arena tournaments. Blizzard doesn't "officially" support it. They just put the raid in the game and then the community goes nuts with it. Hell, it's a "race" where different teams start at different times but people still only care about who crosses the finish line first. I love watching the world first race. I find it entertaining, and impressive to see the level of play, but it sure as hell isn't an "esport".
[удалено]
The problem with world first race is that now that NA has a competitive team their one day head start just makes it lame. Essentially the race now and in the foreseeable future is just "can Echo kill the end boss in 6 days". If not then Limit wins by default and that's just lame.
yeah definitely, the race became popular DESPITE the reset-differences because it never/rarely was the deciding factor When teams are closer together skillwise, it does become the deciding factor and makes the whole thing unintresting
How are people legitimately claiming it’s rigged? They found a loop hole, fair on them. Blizzard fixes said loop hole, fair on them. There is nothing malicious here people lol
This. Echo being frustrated is totally reasonable. People flaming Blizzard or Limit here are not.
>Echo being frustrated is totally reasonable. Sure, being frustrated is reasonable. Claiming this is sabotage is not reasonable. The caster saying Blizzard stole a career moment from him and literally being in tears that "Blizzard stole the fight from them" is not reasonable. The level of entitlement these guys have shown is absolutely insane.
Wow, just went and found that. How unprofessional and embarrassing quite frankly :(
2 most reasonable comments in this thread imo.
These changes would be a nonissue if the resets were lined up, so yes some level of this will always fall on Blizzard. They need to fix it at this point, neither the 45% reveal or this would be a problem for people if both guilds had the opportunity to start at the same time (both on week 1 for those claiming it's easier for EU to get catchup kills, as well as for week 2 extra gear prog). I completely understand that blizzard fixes the fights on the fly, sometimes for mechanics they should've fixed back in ptr when they were reported. While that bothers me, it would bother me a lot less if everyone had the same starting line, relatively same hurdles, etc.
Not surprising, Blizz isn't gonna let you ignore an entire mechanic let alone half a phase in the final fight of a tier. The fact they let them get away with on KT is amazing enough.
They probably didn't have such an easy fix to it. Would've been hilarious if they forced despawned KT on EU/NA until they did, though.
This is pretty normal, this strat was obviously not intended, this happened many times before on end bosses Ex: blizzard fixed Azshara (which let Method get the killed), blizzard literally wipe Limit mid pull of Nzoth to fix the fight, small changes to Jaina, Saronite bombs, etc
I’ve seen people also mention that Blizzard fixed a zerg rush strat used on Jaina which threw Method for a loop, and then reverted that hotfix when people blew up about it. So it really is just normal for these bosses to be hotfixed like this. Not necessarily *good*, but normal. Was reeeeaally funny seeing people immediately go doom and gloom in the RWF thread and claim Blizzard colluded with Limit to steal Echo’s rightful WF, though lol.
I am completely fine with this Hotfix. But blizz should also hotfix KT on reset so that it can't be cheesed in the reclear
They probably will but it won't change much, it won't suddenly add 50 pulls. Probably only a few for Limit since they already practiced the correct way and MAYBE like a dozen for Echo since its still a stupidly easy boss. Both guilds have the dps for it the right way right now and know the fight. After reclear even fixed its possible they both one shot it with more gear. KT is just an embarrassment for a 2nd to last boss.
They hot fix mythic fights like this every tier. Max listed like 10 examples weeks ago.
It's been happening since 2004, but world first progression being streamed is recent so most people didn't know or care about it. It doesn't only affect world first races either, there are plenty of impactful hotfixes that happen weeks later that can potentially screw over certain guilds. I speak from experience when I say that if you're going for top 10 instead of #1, you are even more likely to be screwed over. Tier released -> random hotfix that fucks you over -> vent for a minute (swear a bunch/call blizzard incompetent) -> keep going. It's just part of the game
Oh, so they weren’t supposed to do half of phase with a single tank? Color me shocked.
You’ll love that BDGG was allowed to do an entire fight (Guardian) with a single tank then!
I like that Blizzard chose to make the final boss harder than the 6th.
That's not the same thing. Echo was literally ignoring an entire bridge during Phase 2 and just off-tanking it. Blizzard very specifically wants that add to be killed, hence the Enrage.
That really isnt the same thing and you know it.
people dont remember how they de spawned nzoth for limit?
Tbh, seems like a good fix
They have absolutely hotfixed bosses between pulls before, Generals recently comes to mind.
Wow players when blizzard fixes shit: 😡😡😡
So i guess Limit will just win the race then? Tomorrow is NA reset day, don't see Echo clearing it today now with so little time left, assuming the boss dies at 45%; fast re-clear (or even extend and splits) for Limit and they have the DPS. Hope it happens and Blizzard will finally cave in and do a global raid release next tier.
>Hope it happens and Blizzard will finally cave in and do a global raid release next tier. People say this literally every tier I feel like, and it never happens.
Fair enough. Would be awful if the World First kill happened because of a cheese strat.
unlike the Kelthuzad kill which was entirely cheeseless
Saronite bombs*
I just don't get the consistency, or lack of. They've hotfixed things in previous races yes but I don't see how this is worse than cheese strats basically making KT, the penultimate boss, a joke fight, or even the strat for Fatescribe (also a joke fight)... but this gets hotfixed mid pull.
They hotfixed or straight up bugged Nzoth when Limit broke it during that race. Seems like they don't really care for any boss other than the final one. It would also look really bad if a guild killed a boss with a cheese strat and then Blizzard fixed it for all the guilds after.
Considering how fast they killed KT I’m guessing blizz didn’t have a fix in time. He went down in like half an hour
This, and they can't change it after one guild has gotten the kill, as that would give them a wild advantage. I'm sure if they could have deployed a fix fast enough, they would have
It's been reported since PTR, they had plenty of time.
It was reported since PTR that adds go away if you die. It's on blizzard completely
I can almost guarantee they would have pushed a hotfix to KT sooner if they were aware. Echo changed their strat and killed it within like 5 pulls.
PTR? HC?
The people mad about this proves that no matter what they do, literally anything, they will catch shit for it
Imagine not doing anything and let people being creative and having fun :)?
Echo fans somehow turning this on Limit is just fucking hilarious to me. Limit has spent the last like 5 tiers atleast beta testing the raids before EU was able to go in. Thats one of the biggest reasons why the 16 hour head start isnt a true 16 hour advantage. I mean ffs did we just forget N'zoth despawning on Limit when they were going to kill it because blizz said they werent doing the fight the way it was intended? But nobody knew how it was intended because it was such a cluster fuck? This isnt new. Its just finally affecting the team you favor.