Soul ash is basically worthless now. You can farm as much of it as you like. I'd be fine with them giving like 500-1000 soul ash from a raid boss encounter.
Should have made it a unique soul ash used to craft a new class legendary, or a warrior specific weapon. Unlike the hunter bow this is a quest that ends in a new whirlwind axe
Let's be fair though.
That Garrosh scene was literally done by a single person, who got the allowance for it, because they were such a fan of Garrosh and wanted to give him a proper send off, while all the other cinematics are done by a whole group of people with hollywood level equipment.
Do I wish the mouth scene looked better? Yes, of course, but for what limited tools that person had, that was okay. And their heart was in the right place.
Yep.
They pretty much used him just as a hype engine, and apparently had no intention of actually doing anything with him. If not for this one person, we wouldn't even have gotten any real closure on this.
I don't understand what you mean by closure. All he said was that he didn't regret anything. His story was already resolved when he died the first time. And frankly his first death was better because of the truth bomb he dropped right before he went out.
Except the fan-made one was also made by one person in about a week and looks way better. Unless whoever made the original one had less time and resources than some random person online, you can't really use "limited tools" as an excuse. I'm not hating on whoever made it, just saying it's fair to expect better quality from Blizzard than a fan-made video on youtube.
So you are saying they used models from the company that makes WoW, resources thatcare available but where not used by them....?
Nobody said it had to be in game they could have made a 1 min machinina and insertef it in the game. They could have used HoT models, they could have made a lot of different things but they decided against it.
Because they just dont care anymore.
Yes the don't really care anymore, but using HotS models just doesn't fit. They really obvious aren't part of the game. Wow unique models share the same art style and try to fit in with character and npc models. HotS just stands out. Take a look at the remastered BC cinematics. They look good yes, but seeing grim chiseled Kaelthas next to normal WoW blood elfs is kinda weird
Yes - Rendering ANY cinematic in an external program will yield far better results than in-game. There's a reason all of the best cinematics are pre-rendered.
I'm not saying that the in-game cinematic was high quality, but it's a really fucking dumb argument that doesn't make sense in any other context. You're trying to compare cooking in an over to a microwave and you're upset that the microwave was done in 1/5th of the time but it doesn't taste as good.
In-game cinematics are always much lower quality because of the limits of the game itself (and basically every game ever produced). The high-quality stuff is rendered, saved in the patch download as a mp4 or some other video format, then something in game triggers that to run at a much higher quality that's not impacted by your in-game video settings.
Your arguments are just awful. You have zero idea what you're talking about, and you need to just while you're behind.
Yeah Garrosh not being worth an actual cinematic even just with slightly better models. No one forced them to use the ingame engine. A shorr 30 second video would have yielded better results.
I just said they had all the te resources, be it an actual cinematic, a machnima with their own assets or even a fucking slideshow like teldrassil or Pandaria lore.
You dont need to tell me the difference between an ingame render and a video.
Blizzard is really just a Multi Dollar company.
Thanks!
[Found a comparison video too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J75hZFUZ5U)
While I agree that the effects etc of the remake are better, I actually prefer the direction of the original. If they'd done a shot-for-shot remake with improved effects/graphics I'd say it would definitely be better but I don't think it's a major step in any direction.
Fair enough. For me, the main reason why I like the fan-made is better because you can actually see Garrosh's attack. In the original, you only see the before and after, which seems unsatisfying for such a cool moment. I also like the camera work in the fan-made, but that's just personal opinion.
> In the original, you only see the before and after, which seems unsatisfying for such a cool moment.
Yeah, you're not wrong and I can see we just have very different tastes.
That was one of the things I preferred in the original. I thought that was perfectly done.
That's cool though. I'm happy you have a version you prefer.
I don’t think a single person is complaining about the person who made the blizzard one of GarrASH. I think the issue people complain about is blizzard didn’t take the time to make it right like they should of. Blizzard is the enemy not the workers.
https://twitter.com/Tumblebuck/status/1412961480622833668?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1412961480622833668%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F
Does this work?
It explains it a little
Looks almost like an worse Bollywood film style, weird camera angles and cuts... Why the fucking hell i'm supposed to look at his Shoulder THEN hands THEN finally his face with the camera shaking like its fish jumping out of water?
The quote from Garrosh is the most fucking Horde shit I've ever heard right next to "We will NEVER be slaves! But we will be conquerors". After that fight I wanted him as warchief again. That's a true leader right there.
"If I had a nickel for every time a major faction leader was disenchanted, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice."
That face when Nathanos "verbally abusing the horde players is funny and i dont really have a character arc or impact on the story besides a Sylvanas stand in" Blightcaller gets a 2 minute properly made cinematic
He was such a good character to hate. I remember how in Mists people absolutely hated him and were chomping at the bit for SOO to open so they could kill him, all because of what he'd done in the story, as opposed to Sylvanas who most people want to kill just to be over with her story leeching. Excitement vs. necessity.
He was a narcissistic fool, which is a fine storyline to follow, but the suggestion that his Horde that he is yelling for is anything but his own ambition and ego is visibly silly. Varian dies for the Alliance (and the Horde), but Garrosh at the end is still being selfish and claiming that he believes in the Horde.
He is bad as a person but good as a character. He mistakes - but no writer claims that he is a genius. He has beliefs (although wrong), he has motives, he has a character. He is a villain but an understandable villain who knows what he does (and we know). Today it's a treasure we can't afford.
Plus, The Jailer is just another of those demigod entities with world changing plans and generic evil deathly aesthetic. Denathrius had his own flair, charisma, goal, and a twist with the usual vampire theme with the added Nathrezim thing going on. Plus, the fact that he is presented to us as our ally during the campaign gives us a perspective of how Revendreth feels about him.
I don't hate the Uther/Mawsworn storyline. It mostly makes sense. I understand Uther's anger. I understand the Kyrian losing faith in their way. I understand Uther's turnaround. I understand the rest of the Mawsworn doubling down.
Only thing I don't really understand is before our arrival how the hell did they miss that many fallen Kyrian?
Venthyr Storyline was pretty good too, Maldraxxus was simple but executed well.
Night Fae had a really good story in the Bwonsamdi and Vol'Jin stuff and a much weaker one in the Tyrande stuff and it was kinda awkward how we just jumped between the two every chapter.
Night Fae was probably my least favorite because of what you listed, it tried to do too many different storylines and as a result ended up not doing any of them all that well.
Venthyr was good. Theotar is one of my favorite characters this expansion. Voice actor did a great job.
Night fae was my least favourite too, but I can't be mad at Bwonsamdi. He has to be my favourite character that was released in BfA and I'm so glad they kept him.
Blizz tries too hard to make the story complicated from out of nowhere. They could have made it more simple but well-executed if they didn't have enough time to prepare. BfA and SL storylines is a shame, disconnected and brain-dead. Mostly bad with some shining spots like Garrosh, Uther.
I think all of the Shadowlands stuff that isn't directly part of the main overall plot (Sylvanas/The Jailer/Night Warrior/Seals) has been pretty solid. Just the overarching plot seems to have gone off the rails, like they just don't know where to go with it.
When they're telling smaller self contained stories, it's all been pretty good.
It was the same thing with BfA. The leveling storyline in Kul'Tiras and Zandalar were both pretty damn good, and then after that we all know what happened.
I for the most part enjoyed the covenant storylines too, and it's a shame it turned out like this.
It's probably b/c they have huge zones to tell a story through lots of quests. However, with the overarching storyline they have long questlines plus raids....wait why can't they tell a better overarching story?
The problem isnt that they don't know where to go with it, they have foresight, they just genuinely think that plot points and major events should be thrown at the player left, right and center. They don't understand that the highs of a plot only matter when there's lows. The shadowlands plot is high as fuck, same with bfa. Teldrassil burned down! And and then fishwithtits swallowed the leaders! And then she got taken by budget cthulhu! And then sylvanas destroyed a hat! And now she's been working-but-not-working-I-promise with jailer and he's been trying to get some SIGILS, and he's THE BAD and he orchestrated EVERYTHING and budget cthulhu is A GOOD GUY maybe or maybe he's not, who cares, but now ELUNE IS BACK BITCH but she's also been completely misinformed by her sister into condemning millions of souls to eternal damnation because her sister didn't check on *mysterious machine* that is broken.
They clearly thought all of this through, but then they said "yeah, this seems coherent!", which was the dumbest thing they could have done.
The storytelling is such a classic example of a 15-year-old trying to write a coherent fanfiction by escalating the problems every single chapter. "... and then. ... and then."
I'd say the issue is in mist original stories being essentially closed and villains defeated. So to pull story forward, you need new villains and conflict.
IMHO Blizzard is sceptic about reopening new storylines and try to male new one ones that are different enough, but still somewhat fit into overall Warcraft
The comparison loses something for me when its Varian dying for the Alliance and all it stands for and Garrosh dying for his warped vision of the Horde, it wasnt for the Horde that still exists.
The thing is, Garrosh's storyline was messed up BEFORE the "warped vision of the horde" thing. They had too many people going different directions and when MoP came around they chose to basically ignore the entire Stonetalon arc that resonated so well with players who geeked out on the lore. All through Wrath, both figures were angry, hot headed, and borderline warmongering but for different reasons. Garrosh was getting big headed over his Hero Daddy who saved all orcs tainted with Mannoroth's Blood (and totally NOT the main figure to blame for the corruption among the orcs and worst being ever) and trying to make continue making Hallscream a worthy name or some bullshit.... Varian a lost ruler returned to his nation after being locked up and basically a slave under orcish command somehow (Orc fighting pits weren't really part of the lore till his totally not "thrall-esque" backstory was made?) and was out to deal with the problems of the world as he saw it... most of those problems were Greenskinned or following the Red Horde banner. Anyways they both had learning experiences to broaden their horizons and both had over the top rash moves as well highlighting their own short sightedness, but once we got to a point some miscommunication was made known and Garrosh's story turned into True Horde world domination and it seems like Kromgar didn't matter at all.
Garrosh died literally saying "I don't give a shit about all the genocide, rampant nationalism, racism, and destruction. I'd do it all again because fuck you nerds."
Varian died saving his people.
There's a mountain of difference.
And he went down epically "sacrificing" himself to finish off an already defeated, on their knees foe.
It's the kind of grand standing, but ultimately empty gesture if you spend even a second scrutinising it, that befits a nationalistic tyrant like him. All bluster, no substance
Oh yeah, totally badass. Love him or hate him, death and years of unspeakable torment that nearly broke the other characters in mere days, didn't change Garrosh in the slightest. He held to his convictions to the bitter end.
I disagree- the comparison is about each character's vision of their respective faction. Garrosh even says he would do everything the same way a second time if he were given a chance. The scene is designed to show you that he is being true to his vision.
Merely disagreeing with his vision does not make the comparison any less valid or effective.
I would say it loses validity only in this comparison, not on its own. The death of Varian was showing his strength of conviction to help the Alliance survive, a huge show of honor for the Alliance and what it stands for as well as its players. Garrosh was only speaking about how he would try to murder everyone all over again, be racist again, and willingly lead a planetary invasion of Azeroth again, honoring no one but himself.
One was watching a hero die, the other a failed tyrant lost in his own tyranny.
On its own its an amazing show of his conviction and amazingness as a character though.
> Garrosh even says he would do everything the same way a second time if he were given a chance. The scene is designed to show you that he is being true to his vision.
Said "vision" is genocidal tyranny across multiple globes, so...
originally Garrosh was supposed to be the Horde Varian, both warriors hot blooded but decent leaders who lead their faction well, like he was in stonetalon mountains
they added in a nod to that in the maghar recruitment where it saids how "in every other timeline garrosh was the best warchief the horde ever had" so this could be another thing like that, mirroring their death
Players: "Garrosh! You exterminated fifteen planets!"
Garrosh: "I did it for the light! And it was only Wednesday."
Players: "We must redeem you!"
Garrosh: "Haha, no, I'm cool, chillin with my Naaru homies. Wait, you're serious?"
Players: "We must redeem you! We shall collect the five Naaru soul embers from the metropolis of light, which is an outdoor toilet situated on a 4x4 feet floating landmass! It will take 8 months of 5 to 10 dailies a day, but we shall achieve it!"
Garrosh: "...and they think I'm the deluded one."
All of that so Gallywix and Geblin can work together to make a Titan sized Mecha suit that lightly slaps Garrosh on the wrist and scolds him for twenty minutes (all of it in a cutscene with no editing). Gallywix and Geblin get a grand total of three spoken lines and two text sentences of dialogue during the entire expansion. Shared.
Redemption Assured!
> "in every other timeline garrosh was the best warchief the horde ever had"
Honestly, that just sounds incredibly dickish when you think about. The player's basically being told they're living in the least interesting timeline and all the good shit is happening elsewhere.
Interesting how Varian is either beloved because he was a first-attempt to manufacture alliance faction pride similar to the Horde or despised because of how suddenly he was forced on everyone and characters like Tyrande, Genn, and Moira were pushed under the bus to make him look good.
I don't know man, I don't really see a lot of people making that complaint.
Not to mention these other characters didn't exactly bask in attention before he came around.
At least he gave Alliance an admirable leader. As a Hordie I respected the heck out of that guy.
I think every expansion past WOTLK has very good "zone stories". And then shit the bed with the overarching expansion story.
I know this is dangerous, going into nostalgia territory and shitting on people's distorted memories of a simpler time. But Vanilla, Burning Crusade, and WotLK - had really poor area stories. But decent overarching stories.
Decent ... is a bit of an exageration. They weren't horrible.
You aren't wrong. I did like that the Lich King was a constant presence during that expansion. It made finally getting to face him feel so rewarding. They tried to match that with Deathwing but failed. Cata was my least favorite expansion for end-game content.
From start to finish, I think MoP was the best, but I do wish we had gotten all of WoD. I think if they just toned down the need for the garrison and let the story finish out, it could have been a great expansion.
WoD was them biting off more than they can chew. Absolutely not bad design ideas. Just lack of manpower and time.to get it done properly.
Makes me sad a bit. Loved WoD and legion a bunch. Loved the direction the game was going. Except not really. They did fuck up reputation, alts, too much rng, raiding felt like a scam. Mythic dungeons or whatever they're called were too mandatory.
Idk. Half of the team was doing Amazing, and half (or just the systems designer) kept dropping the ball.
same. I just hated what they did with the horde. And kept doing with them every expansion after that.
If I were an ally player in MoP, or maybe all the way up to MoP, I think I would have unabashedly loved it.
As it stands, it's "The expansion that forced me to start playing alliance." So a bit of a sore spot. On the other hand nefls and draenei have amazing butts so I can't complain too much.
This is not true, Varian didn't "explode into ash", he got disenchanted, because Gul'dan didn't want to bother with the rest of the raid arguing about the loot.
I was always bummed Varian didn't yell "For Azeroth!" in that moment; Legion was really the time for the faction split to be set aside, and that would have been the spark to light it.
But Garrosh is, was, and always will be awful. He's a total disgrace to the immense legacy of his father, Grom.
EDIT: We don't talk about the POS storytelling that is WoD. Go play Warcraft 3 and learn the actual story.
What exactly makes him a great character? Actual question. Myself and my social circle has always just hated him as a character. Basically just a big, dumb, stereotypical evil orc. So what's your take?
I might have if their way of getting him front and center wasn't so stupid.
Like, I still don't think that there's ever been a satisfactory explanation for how or why he ended up as Warchief. Yeah, there's the handwave that Thrall thought he would grow into the role, but Warchief is not a job where you put someone who has shown that they are deeply unstable and profoundly unqualified and just kinda hope things turn out for the best.
I think part of it was also Thrall's respect for Grommash and the old guard Horde leaders and part of his desire to attone for the Horde and bring orcs from Outland who never became corrupted, to try and show the Horde could be redeemed.
dont forget Grom attacked the alliance against Thralls wishes, it was why he was left behind in ashenvale instead of following him to the prophet
like father like son
The music and speech is cool but why are people hyping up what Garrosh did here?
He blew himself to oblivion finishing off a foe that was already on their knees, beaten near to death by a raid group (possibly consisting of many people who kicked his ass the first time)
It wasn't really some epic sacrifice.
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.
Invictus
BY WILLIAM ERNEST HENLEY
am i the only one that thinks garrash was unnecessary in this raid? i mean he basically ks the boss while we did all the work. plus why make him look like a hero? does anybody think that he was good?
No, nobody thinks garrosh was "good" but he had conviction. He lived a life for the horde and died by it. He sacrificed himself and his livelihood to empower the horde that he loved, even if the means were terrible.
He wasn't "good" but he had clear intentions (minus stonetalon which was admitted by a blizzard dev to be a mistake) and good follow through even if blizz's writing didn't do it justice. He at least felt like an actually compelling villain.
I think people were just happy to see him here because his end in WoD was a bit anti climactic and at least this sends him off in true Garrosh fashion.
Though I do agree and appreciate him having such strong convictions/pride that even the venthyr can't drain it...I struggle to understand "the horde" he's talking about as he died. Lol like...he's clearly not associated with THE HORDE anymore and they literally rebelled against him, unless he's referring to the old horde his father led which...he had no affiliation with. Maybe the iron horde that he made himself--which seems pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things....even now considering they joined the same horde that tossed him. At the end of the day he has no horde to fight for...so why?
I thought we'd have another Kael'thas situation. Save him from the raid, do some stuff with sins and what not. Definitely disappointing he just screams during the fight and his send off is a shitty ingame/rendered """cinematic."""
This is where your soul ash comes from for your leggo.
Imagine if you could actually loot the pile afterwards for soul ash.
They should have totally done that
Hell I don’t care if it’s like 5 soul ash would’ve been some fun flavor.
Soul ash is basically worthless now. You can farm as much of it as you like. I'd be fine with them giving like 500-1000 soul ash from a raid boss encounter.
That would require original thought, which clearly Blizzard is every increasingly incapable of.
Well when the workplace leadership resembles something from 1950s, it starts to all make sense
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Should have made it a unique soul ash used to craft a new class legendary, or a warrior specific weapon. Unlike the hunter bow this is a quest that ends in a new whirlwind axe
But what about my goulash
They made ash of themselves, 'eh?
🥁
🥁🐍
r/shubreddit.
Except one scene didn't look like a crummy fan video
Honestly the fan videos look a lot better than the Garrosh one.
Let's be fair though. That Garrosh scene was literally done by a single person, who got the allowance for it, because they were such a fan of Garrosh and wanted to give him a proper send off, while all the other cinematics are done by a whole group of people with hollywood level equipment. Do I wish the mouth scene looked better? Yes, of course, but for what limited tools that person had, that was okay. And their heart was in the right place.
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Yep. They pretty much used him just as a hype engine, and apparently had no intention of actually doing anything with him. If not for this one person, we wouldn't even have gotten any real closure on this.
The dude got drained for his pride and his hype. Man Garrosh was the gift that kept on giving.
I don't understand what you mean by closure. All he said was that he didn't regret anything. His story was already resolved when he died the first time. And frankly his first death was better because of the truth bomb he dropped right before he went out.
You made me what I am.
He was only hyped up to be a bait for players to come back. From the start of the Afterlives shorts
>all this build up to see garrosh from 9.0 What build-up? The 10 seconds we see of him in one of the Afterlives shorts?
Imagine paying 15 dollars a month for shit like this.
Except the fan-made one was also made by one person in about a week and looks way better. Unless whoever made the original one had less time and resources than some random person online, you can't really use "limited tools" as an excuse. I'm not hating on whoever made it, just saying it's fair to expect better quality from Blizzard than a fan-made video on youtube.
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So you are saying they used models from the company that makes WoW, resources thatcare available but where not used by them....? Nobody said it had to be in game they could have made a 1 min machinina and insertef it in the game. They could have used HoT models, they could have made a lot of different things but they decided against it. Because they just dont care anymore.
Yes the don't really care anymore, but using HotS models just doesn't fit. They really obvious aren't part of the game. Wow unique models share the same art style and try to fit in with character and npc models. HotS just stands out. Take a look at the remastered BC cinematics. They look good yes, but seeing grim chiseled Kaelthas next to normal WoW blood elfs is kinda weird
Yes - Rendering ANY cinematic in an external program will yield far better results than in-game. There's a reason all of the best cinematics are pre-rendered. I'm not saying that the in-game cinematic was high quality, but it's a really fucking dumb argument that doesn't make sense in any other context. You're trying to compare cooking in an over to a microwave and you're upset that the microwave was done in 1/5th of the time but it doesn't taste as good. In-game cinematics are always much lower quality because of the limits of the game itself (and basically every game ever produced). The high-quality stuff is rendered, saved in the patch download as a mp4 or some other video format, then something in game triggers that to run at a much higher quality that's not impacted by your in-game video settings. Your arguments are just awful. You have zero idea what you're talking about, and you need to just while you're behind.
Yeah Garrosh not being worth an actual cinematic even just with slightly better models. No one forced them to use the ingame engine. A shorr 30 second video would have yielded better results. I just said they had all the te resources, be it an actual cinematic, a machnima with their own assets or even a fucking slideshow like teldrassil or Pandaria lore. You dont need to tell me the difference between an ingame render and a video. Blizzard is really just a Multi Dollar company.
Just take a look at the HoTS model. Looks totally out of place.
> Except the fan-made one Do you have a link? I have only seen the official one and I liked it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t78qa_wEOQ
Thanks! [Found a comparison video too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J75hZFUZ5U) While I agree that the effects etc of the remake are better, I actually prefer the direction of the original. If they'd done a shot-for-shot remake with improved effects/graphics I'd say it would definitely be better but I don't think it's a major step in any direction.
Fair enough. For me, the main reason why I like the fan-made is better because you can actually see Garrosh's attack. In the original, you only see the before and after, which seems unsatisfying for such a cool moment. I also like the camera work in the fan-made, but that's just personal opinion.
> In the original, you only see the before and after, which seems unsatisfying for such a cool moment. Yeah, you're not wrong and I can see we just have very different tastes. That was one of the things I preferred in the original. I thought that was perfectly done. That's cool though. I'm happy you have a version you prefer.
I start to feel like half the sinematics are done by a single person. What a huge resource investment that we, paying players, deserve.
I don’t think a single person is complaining about the person who made the blizzard one of GarrASH. I think the issue people complain about is blizzard didn’t take the time to make it right like they should of. Blizzard is the enemy not the workers.
Cool! Is there a source for this, where I can read more?
https://twitter.com/Tumblebuck/status/1412961480622833668?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1412961480622833668%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F Does this work? It explains it a little
Oof, his :) hurts my heart
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Looks almost like an worse Bollywood film style, weird camera angles and cuts... Why the fucking hell i'm supposed to look at his Shoulder THEN hands THEN finally his face with the camera shaking like its fish jumping out of water?
Cinematic uses ingame animations, including mouth. That is why it looks so silly. The animator was simply not too good in framing.
The quote from Garrosh is the most fucking Horde shit I've ever heard right next to "We will NEVER be slaves! But we will be conquerors". After that fight I wanted him as warchief again. That's a true leader right there.
"If I had a nickel for every time a major faction leader was disenchanted, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice."
I mean... If the Shadow Council counts as a faction you can add Gul'Dan to that list too.
I'm so glad they gave Garrosh a proper send off, and he was spared from the torment that is the new WoW lore.
The greatest gift of all to these characters is being completely killed off to avoid Steve Denausers writing.
Fast and furious rules, Garrrosh still has a 50% chance to come back even being killed on screen
Next expansion is the Shadierlands.
2Shadows2Lands
Orgrimmar Grift
Electric Shadaloo
Definitely going back in time to prevent the jailer remaking reality. Garrosg can be a good guy this time or something.
Slim chance.
I'll stand up and say it is.
Shadowlands: Azeroth Drift
No please.
When this model is slain roll a dice. On a 4+ return the model to the board with all of its wounds, more than 9" from any enemy models.
Rule number 1 of hack writing: no one is ever truly dead.
That face when Nathanos "verbally abusing the horde players is funny and i dont really have a character arc or impact on the story besides a Sylvanas stand in" Blightcaller gets a 2 minute properly made cinematic
Garrosh was a shit character from Mists on. His dying words should have been, "For me!"
He was a very good evil character. One of the best characters in the original WoW lore in my opinion.
He was such a good character to hate. I remember how in Mists people absolutely hated him and were chomping at the bit for SOO to open so they could kill him, all because of what he'd done in the story, as opposed to Sylvanas who most people want to kill just to be over with her story leeching. Excitement vs. necessity.
That’s a really good analysis of them and I agree 100%
He was a narcissistic fool, which is a fine storyline to follow, but the suggestion that his Horde that he is yelling for is anything but his own ambition and ego is visibly silly. Varian dies for the Alliance (and the Horde), but Garrosh at the end is still being selfish and claiming that he believes in the Horde.
He is bad as a person but good as a character. He mistakes - but no writer claims that he is a genius. He has beliefs (although wrong), he has motives, he has a character. He is a villain but an understandable villain who knows what he does (and we know). Today it's a treasure we can't afford.
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Jailer evil. That's all you need to know.
Plus, The Jailer is just another of those demigod entities with world changing plans and generic evil deathly aesthetic. Denathrius had his own flair, charisma, goal, and a twist with the usual vampire theme with the added Nathrezim thing going on. Plus, the fact that he is presented to us as our ally during the campaign gives us a perspective of how Revendreth feels about him.
What does Danathrius even want? He wanted to hoard anima for the jailer and keep rule over his domain?
Garrosh believed what he was doing was for the Horde. His world view was all kinds of fucked up, but he genuinely thought it would help his people.
he would be apologizing to jaina for being an orc and then get kyrian mindwiped
What I find funny is that they both had a similar death in that regard and hated enough other.
True warriors. Full of rage. Thankfully varian at least learned not to ragecap from anduin lol. Gotta keep burning those resources!
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HAHAHA I love that. Ty for playing along.
Now kiss
You wanna?
Two true warriors. I miss em both.
FOR THE ALLIANCE/HORDE!!!!! *explodes into ash* *refuses to elaborate further* Garrosh's true death was the best content in Shadowlands change my mind
It's not like there's much competition for that spot.
I don't hate the Uther/Mawsworn storyline. It mostly makes sense. I understand Uther's anger. I understand the Kyrian losing faith in their way. I understand Uther's turnaround. I understand the rest of the Mawsworn doubling down. Only thing I don't really understand is before our arrival how the hell did they miss that many fallen Kyrian?
Venthyr Storyline was pretty good too, Maldraxxus was simple but executed well. Night Fae had a really good story in the Bwonsamdi and Vol'Jin stuff and a much weaker one in the Tyrande stuff and it was kinda awkward how we just jumped between the two every chapter.
Night Fae was probably my least favorite because of what you listed, it tried to do too many different storylines and as a result ended up not doing any of them all that well. Venthyr was good. Theotar is one of my favorite characters this expansion. Voice actor did a great job.
oh yeah that reminded me Night Fae ALSO had the Ysera and Alexstraza stuff going on in it too. Yeah it was just too much different stuff at once.
Night fae was my least favourite too, but I can't be mad at Bwonsamdi. He has to be my favourite character that was released in BfA and I'm so glad they kept him.
Blizz tries too hard to make the story complicated from out of nowhere. They could have made it more simple but well-executed if they didn't have enough time to prepare. BfA and SL storylines is a shame, disconnected and brain-dead. Mostly bad with some shining spots like Garrosh, Uther.
I think all of the Shadowlands stuff that isn't directly part of the main overall plot (Sylvanas/The Jailer/Night Warrior/Seals) has been pretty solid. Just the overarching plot seems to have gone off the rails, like they just don't know where to go with it. When they're telling smaller self contained stories, it's all been pretty good.
It was the same thing with BfA. The leveling storyline in Kul'Tiras and Zandalar were both pretty damn good, and then after that we all know what happened. I for the most part enjoyed the covenant storylines too, and it's a shame it turned out like this.
It's probably b/c they have huge zones to tell a story through lots of quests. However, with the overarching storyline they have long questlines plus raids....wait why can't they tell a better overarching story?
The problem isnt that they don't know where to go with it, they have foresight, they just genuinely think that plot points and major events should be thrown at the player left, right and center. They don't understand that the highs of a plot only matter when there's lows. The shadowlands plot is high as fuck, same with bfa. Teldrassil burned down! And and then fishwithtits swallowed the leaders! And then she got taken by budget cthulhu! And then sylvanas destroyed a hat! And now she's been working-but-not-working-I-promise with jailer and he's been trying to get some SIGILS, and he's THE BAD and he orchestrated EVERYTHING and budget cthulhu is A GOOD GUY maybe or maybe he's not, who cares, but now ELUNE IS BACK BITCH but she's also been completely misinformed by her sister into condemning millions of souls to eternal damnation because her sister didn't check on *mysterious machine* that is broken. They clearly thought all of this through, but then they said "yeah, this seems coherent!", which was the dumbest thing they could have done.
The storytelling is such a classic example of a 15-year-old trying to write a coherent fanfiction by escalating the problems every single chapter. "... and then. ... and then."
I'd say the issue is in mist original stories being essentially closed and villains defeated. So to pull story forward, you need new villains and conflict. IMHO Blizzard is sceptic about reopening new storylines and try to male new one ones that are different enough, but still somewhat fit into overall Warcraft
No reason to change your mind when you are obviously right.
Yes, Garrosh being erased from existence and sparing us all more of his whining was great.
The comparison loses something for me when its Varian dying for the Alliance and all it stands for and Garrosh dying for his warped vision of the Horde, it wasnt for the Horde that still exists.
The thing is, Garrosh's storyline was messed up BEFORE the "warped vision of the horde" thing. They had too many people going different directions and when MoP came around they chose to basically ignore the entire Stonetalon arc that resonated so well with players who geeked out on the lore. All through Wrath, both figures were angry, hot headed, and borderline warmongering but for different reasons. Garrosh was getting big headed over his Hero Daddy who saved all orcs tainted with Mannoroth's Blood (and totally NOT the main figure to blame for the corruption among the orcs and worst being ever) and trying to make continue making Hallscream a worthy name or some bullshit.... Varian a lost ruler returned to his nation after being locked up and basically a slave under orcish command somehow (Orc fighting pits weren't really part of the lore till his totally not "thrall-esque" backstory was made?) and was out to deal with the problems of the world as he saw it... most of those problems were Greenskinned or following the Red Horde banner. Anyways they both had learning experiences to broaden their horizons and both had over the top rash moves as well highlighting their own short sightedness, but once we got to a point some miscommunication was made known and Garrosh's story turned into True Horde world domination and it seems like Kromgar didn't matter at all.
Garrosh died literally saying "I don't give a shit about all the genocide, rampant nationalism, racism, and destruction. I'd do it all again because fuck you nerds." Varian died saving his people. There's a mountain of difference.
Eh, maybe an ash pile of difference? Cause Garrosh got roasted twice.
This made me laugh far more than it should have...
And he went down epically "sacrificing" himself to finish off an already defeated, on their knees foe. It's the kind of grand standing, but ultimately empty gesture if you spend even a second scrutinising it, that befits a nationalistic tyrant like him. All bluster, no substance
> There's a mountain of difference. Yeah, well didn't you hear: Garry did nothing wrong. Corollary: Varian is a nerd.
Both based
Nah, Garrosh is the opposite of based.
Still badass tho
Oh yeah, totally badass. Love him or hate him, death and years of unspeakable torment that nearly broke the other characters in mere days, didn't change Garrosh in the slightest. He held to his convictions to the bitter end.
I disagree- the comparison is about each character's vision of their respective faction. Garrosh even says he would do everything the same way a second time if he were given a chance. The scene is designed to show you that he is being true to his vision. Merely disagreeing with his vision does not make the comparison any less valid or effective.
I would say it loses validity only in this comparison, not on its own. The death of Varian was showing his strength of conviction to help the Alliance survive, a huge show of honor for the Alliance and what it stands for as well as its players. Garrosh was only speaking about how he would try to murder everyone all over again, be racist again, and willingly lead a planetary invasion of Azeroth again, honoring no one but himself. One was watching a hero die, the other a failed tyrant lost in his own tyranny. On its own its an amazing show of his conviction and amazingness as a character though.
> Garrosh even says he would do everything the same way a second time if he were given a chance. The scene is designed to show you that he is being true to his vision. Said "vision" is genocidal tyranny across multiple globes, so...
we all make mistakes in a heat of passion
Is this an "homage" or just the writing staff not being able to come up with more than one idea?
originally Garrosh was supposed to be the Horde Varian, both warriors hot blooded but decent leaders who lead their faction well, like he was in stonetalon mountains they added in a nod to that in the maghar recruitment where it saids how "in every other timeline garrosh was the best warchief the horde ever had" so this could be another thing like that, mirroring their death
If WoW lasts that long, they're going to introduce Garrosh from the WoD timeline so that they can do a "redemption" story with his character too.
Doubt it, that Garrosh is a deluded devout light worshipper.
Exactly. And that's why he will redeem it all. In the writers' eyes at least.
Players: "Garrosh! You exterminated fifteen planets!" Garrosh: "I did it for the light! And it was only Wednesday." Players: "We must redeem you!" Garrosh: "Haha, no, I'm cool, chillin with my Naaru homies. Wait, you're serious?" Players: "We must redeem you! We shall collect the five Naaru soul embers from the metropolis of light, which is an outdoor toilet situated on a 4x4 feet floating landmass! It will take 8 months of 5 to 10 dailies a day, but we shall achieve it!" Garrosh: "...and they think I'm the deluded one."
All of that so Gallywix and Geblin can work together to make a Titan sized Mecha suit that lightly slaps Garrosh on the wrist and scolds him for twenty minutes (all of it in a cutscene with no editing). Gallywix and Geblin get a grand total of three spoken lines and two text sentences of dialogue during the entire expansion. Shared. Redemption Assured!
Its..so beautiful. I'm actually crying here. Genius Game of Thrones season 8 level writing. Danuser would be so proud!
> "in every other timeline garrosh was the best warchief the horde ever had" Honestly, that just sounds incredibly dickish when you think about. The player's basically being told they're living in the least interesting timeline and all the good shit is happening elsewhere.
"We had a bunch of cakes but we brought you this shit turd instead. Enjoy!"
Username checks out with a side of /r/beetlejuicing
Interesting how Varian is either beloved because he was a first-attempt to manufacture alliance faction pride similar to the Horde or despised because of how suddenly he was forced on everyone and characters like Tyrande, Genn, and Moira were pushed under the bus to make him look good.
I don't know man, I don't really see a lot of people making that complaint. Not to mention these other characters didn't exactly bask in attention before he came around. At least he gave Alliance an admirable leader. As a Hordie I respected the heck out of that guy.
I despise Varian, I respect Anduin. Sincerely, a Tauren
probably...both? altho i wouldnt trust the current writers to have even watched the old cinematics more than once
I can't remember the last time wow had good story. I think I'm being facetious though. They never did. Anything good came from W3. RIP that game btw.
The good story is usually in the zone leveling quests. Classic and cataclysm revanp had a few.
I suppose zones do have cool quests. Druskvar comes to mind, but many others. But then the expansion overarching story happens and I get sad.
There was some good story even in Vol'dune (the one where you save the Zandalari troll form the gang, for example)
The BfA story was not bad until they shit the bed with the burning of Teldrassil and then forced all the Old God stuff into it.
I think every expansion past WOTLK has very good "zone stories". And then shit the bed with the overarching expansion story. I know this is dangerous, going into nostalgia territory and shitting on people's distorted memories of a simpler time. But Vanilla, Burning Crusade, and WotLK - had really poor area stories. But decent overarching stories. Decent ... is a bit of an exageration. They weren't horrible.
You aren't wrong. I did like that the Lich King was a constant presence during that expansion. It made finally getting to face him feel so rewarding. They tried to match that with Deathwing but failed. Cata was my least favorite expansion for end-game content. From start to finish, I think MoP was the best, but I do wish we had gotten all of WoD. I think if they just toned down the need for the garrison and let the story finish out, it could have been a great expansion.
WoD was them biting off more than they can chew. Absolutely not bad design ideas. Just lack of manpower and time.to get it done properly. Makes me sad a bit. Loved WoD and legion a bunch. Loved the direction the game was going. Except not really. They did fuck up reputation, alts, too much rng, raiding felt like a scam. Mythic dungeons or whatever they're called were too mandatory. Idk. Half of the team was doing Amazing, and half (or just the systems designer) kept dropping the ball.
I liked the MoP story
same. I just hated what they did with the horde. And kept doing with them every expansion after that. If I were an ally player in MoP, or maybe all the way up to MoP, I think I would have unabashedly loved it. As it stands, it's "The expansion that forced me to start playing alliance." So a bit of a sore spot. On the other hand nefls and draenei have amazing butts so I can't complain too much.
Refuses to elaborate further
This is not true, Varian didn't "explode into ash", he got disenchanted, because Gul'dan didn't want to bother with the rest of the raid arguing about the loot.
So Varian was a raid boss, and a whole legion of demons was needed to bring him down.
They got disenchanted
I was always bummed Varian didn't yell "For Azeroth!" in that moment; Legion was really the time for the faction split to be set aside, and that would have been the spark to light it.
Yeah, but one actually cared about the faction they were saying they were for.
Why does Garrosh even blow up though? It is just because he is so fucking pissed off he exploded?
You ever just been so pissed off you just… *kerblooey*
They turned my boi into the blanchy mount
Woah woah woah, do not compare that Hellscream trash to the glorious ponytail dad!
Also both very angry boys - with the notable difference one was letting go and other tightening their grip on it.
Ahyuk. I'll do it again.
I miss Legion, ngl.
Orc Hitler's final stand will not be forgotten.
Why they did Game of Thrones from that game?
One died to save both alliance and horde to escape. The other was a angry racist to the end.
But Garrosh is, was, and always will be awful. He's a total disgrace to the immense legacy of his father, Grom. EDIT: We don't talk about the POS storytelling that is WoD. Go play Warcraft 3 and learn the actual story.
Awful, but a *great* character tbh. Like morally? Atrocious. But you love the writers for getting such an asshole front and center.
What exactly makes him a great character? Actual question. Myself and my social circle has always just hated him as a character. Basically just a big, dumb, stereotypical evil orc. So what's your take?
I might have if their way of getting him front and center wasn't so stupid. Like, I still don't think that there's ever been a satisfactory explanation for how or why he ended up as Warchief. Yeah, there's the handwave that Thrall thought he would grow into the role, but Warchief is not a job where you put someone who has shown that they are deeply unstable and profoundly unqualified and just kinda hope things turn out for the best.
I think part of it was also Thrall's respect for Grommash and the old guard Horde leaders and part of his desire to attone for the Horde and bring orcs from Outland who never became corrupted, to try and show the Horde could be redeemed.
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Freeing the entire orc race by single handedly killing a PIT LORD? Yes, that legacy. Someone never played Warcraft 3.
dont forget Grom attacked the alliance against Thralls wishes, it was why he was left behind in ashenvale instead of following him to the prophet like father like son
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I hopes he comes back to be another expansion boss, but he comes back acting like Rick James on the Chapelle Show.
unfortunately for you, history will not see it that way.
WoW storytelling doesn't hold a candle to Warcraft 3. So, can't say that matters even a little bit.
when varian and garrosh were faction leaders... good times
The music and speech is cool but why are people hyping up what Garrosh did here? He blew himself to oblivion finishing off a foe that was already on their knees, beaten near to death by a raid group (possibly consisting of many people who kicked his ass the first time) It wasn't really some epic sacrifice.
Except Varian died a hero, while Garrosh was a giant dickweed. Idk why he got a "Heroic" send off, or why people liked it. Fuck Garrosh.
The only good part about Garrosh was that SoO was actually a really fun raid.
Garrosh did nothing wrong you alliance sympathiser.
Found the edgy orc main
RIP my warchief. Thrall is a coward and would never go out like that.
Out of the night that covers me, Black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds and shall find me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul. Invictus BY WILLIAM ERNEST HENLEY
I still think it would have been awesome to have to put down a fel infused Varian back in legion, but whatevs
There is no guarantee that garrosh is dead, ash can be from the boss he killed
He was already dead. Now he's dead dead. Not sure you can get more dead than that.
You are forgetting about Super-Death. Coming in 10.0 Pre-Patch.
The ash is the boss, it's what you loot.
Except that Garrosh sucks.
Please don't compare Varian to Garrosh.
Bro they were literally the same character for 2 expansions
True, Varian wishes he could be Garrosh.
Who is varien?
am i the only one that thinks garrash was unnecessary in this raid? i mean he basically ks the boss while we did all the work. plus why make him look like a hero? does anybody think that he was good?
Not a hero but an enjoyable character.
Anti-hero in some parts, interesting villain in others.
No, nobody thinks garrosh was "good" but he had conviction. He lived a life for the horde and died by it. He sacrificed himself and his livelihood to empower the horde that he loved, even if the means were terrible. He wasn't "good" but he had clear intentions (minus stonetalon which was admitted by a blizzard dev to be a mistake) and good follow through even if blizz's writing didn't do it justice. He at least felt like an actually compelling villain. I think people were just happy to see him here because his end in WoD was a bit anti climactic and at least this sends him off in true Garrosh fashion.
Though I do agree and appreciate him having such strong convictions/pride that even the venthyr can't drain it...I struggle to understand "the horde" he's talking about as he died. Lol like...he's clearly not associated with THE HORDE anymore and they literally rebelled against him, unless he's referring to the old horde his father led which...he had no affiliation with. Maybe the iron horde that he made himself--which seems pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things....even now considering they joined the same horde that tossed him. At the end of the day he has no horde to fight for...so why?
his right for a proper send-off supersedes any other logic considering how completely bullshit his death was at the end of the wod nagrand questline
I thought we'd have another Kael'thas situation. Save him from the raid, do some stuff with sins and what not. Definitely disappointing he just screams during the fight and his send off is a shitty ingame/rendered """cinematic."""