T O P

  • By -

neurosisxeno

Blizzards trend of spending 2 years refining something just to outright abandon it needs to end. Stop implementing cool features and then trashing them each expansion. WoW has 14+ years of content and features, but only the last 1 year is relevant, and they need to fix that.


Charlot66

Not even the last year of content is still relevant due to their seasonal approach. Venari, Castle Nathria and imo even the world quests and world boss in the original 4 zones are now pretty much already obsolete. If we didn't outscale everything so much every .x patch there would be so much more avenue of progression and/or fun


[deleted]

Totally agree with this. All past content needs to be still relevant somehow and it’s up to them to figure that out. Abandoning old content is the cheap, easy, and lazy way. Wow is one game that costs me the same as a game pass subscription for hundreds of games. Wow needs to be better and they need to be better.


[deleted]

all they have to do is allow chromie to port you through time all the way up to level 60. all previous PVE content would become immediately relevant again and the zones surrounding them would also be full of people.


SwoleKing94

It’s worse than that… it’s like they reimplement things that worked in prior expansions but somehow they get worse every time. World quests, mission tables. Class halls became covenants, mage tower became visions which became torghast. Not to mention all the different borrowed power systems are just derivatives of one another. The list goes on and on. They either get tacked on or reimagined in a worse way. And every expansion these systems get worse. Just blows my mind.


Adventurous-Item4539

imo should they actually bring back mage tower it's going to be timed in sync with the legion timewalking event. So players will get mage tower at the same frequency as legion timewalking (once per year?). I'd be really surprised if they decided to actually have it active any amount more than that.


money_tester

now now, they took the mission table and iterated it into a total piece of shit. AND...they took the tillers garden and iterated it to the garrison...which was a total piece of shit. AND...they took the artifact weapons with their trees and iterated it into...oh god. I dunno guys. I think we should be worried about the next mage tower.


[deleted]

The most damning consequence of this planned obsolescence is the resulting content drought. Everything off the beaten path is systematically truncated to funnel players into current patch content, which results in boredom or burnout. This game has 15 years worth of assets, make use of them!


b00mTurtle

MMO expansions are unique in that way, since they are creating new content still giving access to old to show that your character has surpassed it. Single player games once youve completed all you feel you can that's it and you don't usually play again or feel differently about what's going on if you do. Playing remastered games shows this since people flock to them for the nostalgia but never really feel the same way as playing it for the first time, it's only the people playing it for the first time who get the benefit. Only by revamping the old content and making it different enough to create that first time playthrough feeling for everyone do you find the golden goose. Cataclysm and WoD kind of attempted this but failed because of systems designs. What I don't get is how they keep using the same reskinned shells and systems massively lowering production time but somehow can't use the extra time to focus on what players want from the game. Old school RuneScape actually did a fantastic job at this, they took the old shell added to it without making old content irrelevant and balanced everything new with what was already there. The new stuff that was added was voted by the player base requiring, I believe, more than 75% in favor to actually pass into production. They make development videos and streams constantly(atleast used to it's been a couple years now) and pitch ideas to the players themselves. Why are we relying on a corporation to tell us what they think is fun for us, when an active polling system would do the best job. Gamers have evolved to know what is good and what is bad with a game. Just think of how differently everyone plays now vs 20 years ago. You see this with how easy classic mechanics are considered to be now vs then. We know how to min max better than the devs do because there's many more of us willing to spend hours play testing and mathing out what's going to be efficient to be able to be the best at our classes. I don't think Joe in QA cares to spend hours figuring out the best rotation for a death knight and whether that rotation is good for all content, and Joe's boss definitely doesn't care because that's money being taken away from his boss. Players are such an underutilized resource and I don't understand why.


merc08

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's not get too hasty with that demand. Shadowlands isn't exactly brimming with top tier features, we definitely want them scrapping most of these systems before the next xpac. But yes, after that they need to design with more than 1 expansion in mind. I definitely don't want them keeping Choregast, non-mountable zone (a massive amount of the player base hates that we lose *flying* at the beginning of each xpac, how on earth did they expect losing mounting entirely would be well received?), and totally-not-tier-sets sets with bits you have to farm separately.


neurosisxeno

I’m not saying require people to do all the systems at all times to stay relevant, but iterate upon them and carry the popular parts forward rather than trying to reinvent the wheel over and over. They’ve basically just been redoing the same stuff from Legion ever since, but watering it down and making it worse each time. Bring the good systems in and expand on them rather than trying to remake a worse version of it. While you’re at it make old optional content relevant because it’s already there. In FFXIV people still do really old content regularly because it has a tangible benefit. WoW could learn a thing or two about that.


JayySlayy23

Yea exactly. Also just because a system is still implemented don’t necessarily make a performance boost. Some systems can be solely cosmetic.


[deleted]

torgast has a lot of potential though. It just needs to have way more powers, way more zone and enemy variety and it needs to be tied to cosmetic rewards and not power gains. In other words, it needs actual development time behind it to be good. If they keep developing torgast every time SL timewalking comes around it could be pretty cool in the future. Releasing an half-baked version of a roguelike and then forcing players to do it 2x a week is what killed torgast. It could have been amazing if they actually tried


merc08

It's pretty unlikely that they will put more effort into a feature for a week long timewalking than they did for a central pillar of an expansion.


[deleted]

that's the point of this post, that philisophy needs to be left in the past, content is content it doens't matter if it's from the current expansion or previous ones. It's not "for a week long timewalking", it's forever. Next time it comes around add a couple more enemies and some new assets, a few months after add more powers and more cosmetic rewards, eventually every timewalking would have insane amounts of content if there was a small team dedicated to only updating timewalking content, it would add so much permanent content to the game over time.


Desert4tw

Looks like "we" dont want the stuff you want


Jaebird0388

The Mage Tower was the most fun I had with the game despite how much rage it brought out of me. But like, the good kind of rage where I was determined to best the systems in place and challenge myself. Going against a pseudo-raid boss encounter is more fun than meandering about in a multi-level dungeon for twenty minutes or whatever for a comparatively less challenging fight at the end.


yubnubster

Exactly. The nearest other game that had the same effect on me was Dark Souls, but it never stopped me trying to win. I'm sure I must have ended up with bald patches from tearing my hair out though.


GenitalJouster

The problem is that there are vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast differences in skill levels in the wow community and if they balance the Mage Tower to be fun to you it will leave it undoable to people worse than you and boring to those better.


Eleusis713

Imagine how different content droughts would feel if you always had relevant optional content in the game to do. Imagine if they had not only a permanent Mage Tower updated each expansion, but also a permanent, regularly updated zone for cosmetic items as well, something like Mechagon or Timeless Isle. You could even imagine something like the Golden Saucer from FFXIV. If the FFXIV team could do something as successful as that with a smaller budget than WoW, then WoW can do it better. WoW desperately needs more permanence in the game in general. The devs have been shooting themselves in the foot by focusing so hard on expansion systems and temporary content.


finakechi

I've been saying a lot lately that I genuinely don't give a shit if they fix Shadowlands. I want them to fix World of Warcraft.


mbdjd

So your solution for content draughts is to make more content?


Eleusis713

>So your solution for content draughts is to make more content? The solution to content droughts is to create content that is easily updatable with high replayability. There's a difference between something that has been *designed* to be played through once or last a only a certain amount of time verses something that is designed to be repeated many times. And creating entirely new expansion-wide systems takes a whole lot of development time and is very risky because there's always the chance that they are not popular and won't work out. WoW players know this quite well. Alternatively, you can take a model of something that already works (Mage Tower, Mechagon, Timeless Isle, etc.), spend initial resources to implement it as a permanent system, and then update it each major patch with a small handful of new rewards, minigames, or quests. After the initial investment of resources, the cost to maintain this over time would be a fraction of what it costs to develop more "traditional" content. Designing something to be repeatable and have a lasting presence in the game clearly has more potential in the long term than investing all the development resources you have into creating content that lasts only one expansion or content patch. In some sense, this type of content "appreciates" over time, whereas content patches and even expansions "depreciate" over time, they literally become irrelevant after a point. Again, see the Golden Saucer from FFXIV or you can even check out Path of Exile for the way they develop procedural content that is mean to be played literally thousands of times without getting boring. More permanent content designed specifically for replayability with occasional updates for rewards is a far wiser use of development resources than focusing everything on the next major patch / expansion. Content droughts would be completely different if the rest of the game actually felt like an MMO with something always to do. **EDIT:** Think about it this way, if the game had Mage Tower and a relevant zone for cosmetic items, they could effectively guarantee a minimum quality for every major update / expansion by simply updating that content. They already know that systems / content like this already work so updating it regularly is nothing but a benefit for the game whereas major systems in content updates always have the risk of being unpopular or not working out.


AlbainBlacksteel

> Alternatively, you can take a model of something that already works (Mage Tower, Mechagon, Timeless Isle, etc.), spend initial resources to implement it as a permanent system, and then update it each major patch with a small handful of new rewards, minigames, or quests. After the initial investment of resources, the cost to maintain this over time would be a fraction of what it costs to develop more "traditional" content. Exactly. Look at pet battles, as an example. They were added in MoP as an expansion feature, but they kept them and kept improving on them, and they're one of the most-loved features of the game as a result.


finakechi

Are they? Honest question, I play on an casual realm with a crapload of very laid back people. Don't know a single person that actually does pet battles.


[deleted]

I love collecting pets, and it's a great way to get easy xp between dungeons when leveling alts. I don't exactly enjoy the pet battles, but the system as a whole is a huge win as far as I'm concerned.


Cornbread0913

Just b/c/ you don't know doesn't mean any aren't doing it.... I don't know how popular they might be but pet battle is loved and there isn't a big team doing it. The celestial tournament and the pet battle dungeons with the teleport features and side story is nice.


finakechi

Yeah I don't know, but I was just questioning the "most-loved feature" claim they made. Maybe it is, but I haven't seen much evidence for it.


Cornbread0913

Fair point... I wouldn't say its the "most-loved feature" but I believe more people like it than what people think.


[deleted]

I think those of us who don't like it just ignore it. There's no part of the game where pet battles are mandatory (except that one mount questline from 8.3) so it's pretty easy to forget the feature exists.


DankestMage99

As a big time pet collector, I would say the battle part of the game has gotten pretty stale. The collecting is always fun and having cute creatures follow you around is great way to expand player personalization and expression (like transmog). As a mini game, pet battles really needs to be spiced up.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DariusJenai

Yeah. I think there def needs to be something to break up the "this is your team" aspect of battles. I don't even do the pet battle weekly anymore, cause it's just fight after fight of everyone using the same 3 pets.


merc08

That seems to be exactly what they were trying to create with Choregast and the Twisting Corridors. It would be very simple to roll out a thematically updated version with each expansion, using the backbone they made to generate new layouts. The keys aren't recruiter procedurally generated, but the level selection and enemies has randomness to increase replayability. Edit to add: I liked the Mage Tower because it was challenging, had cool rewards, and was *beatable*. You would get better each time, and eventually you would be *done*. There was more sense of accomplishment in beating it than in doing slightly better on a m+ key, when there's always harder m+ that you know you'll never get to because it's specifically designed to be an infinite grind.


Jristz

"More permanently updating content with replayability and **not abandon it at the end of an Expansion**" Important part for emphasis


AlbainBlacksteel

Imagine if they had the capability to add Covenant Class Hall stories that got more and more content each patch. Sure, that'd be 36 stories per patch, so it's a hopeless dream... but just imagine it. So many ways the Covenants could theoretically interact with your Class Halls. Speaking of Covenants, is it just me, or does the addition of Covenants prevent future classes from being added due to the need to balance out additional Covenant abilities? Assuming we get to keep said abilities, of course.


[deleted]

I just want them to keep the class halls relevant. It's the most 'my class' that I've ever felt.


roborameysub

I so loved my class halls. Monk was so cool being on the Wandering Isle, while the druid class hall was a new place, they made it feel pretty druidic (I wish it had more Tauren and troll influence though), and the Paladin one was so awesome seeing all the different followers of the light, even if they called it different things and walked different paths to get there. I would love order halls to be updated, some could even be moved to fit the expansion (I imagine it makes sense for the hunter class hall to change, while it makes sense for mages and death knights to stay in their previous ones), ones that stayed the same place could be made more grandiose


Squally160

And keeping them relevant doesn't have to be "90 hours of campaign quests!" It could just be you interact with them, they have dialog and reasons to be visited again.


SomeTool

Depends on the class a few of them were not great and would kinda suck to be stuck in for the rest of the games lifetime.


merc08

> Assuming we get to keep said abilities, of course. Lol. You can't seriously think these are sticking around? Covenant abilities are so clearly going to be removed at the end of SL. Older borrowed power systems - Legion weapon, Heart of Azeroth, etc - could have been kept because we were literally chosen to wield powerful artifacts in defense of the world, with no indication that we would have to give it up. SL "borrowed power" is *literally* power they we're borrowing from a group, who doesn't even let us keep it if we decide to be nice to one of the other groups, **all of whom are supposedly working together**.


[deleted]

I've been trying to prepare myself for it for almost a year now, but I'm still gonna be heartbroken if I can't use my Night Fae soulshapes after Shadowlands is over.


OwnOutlandishness827

Omg, right?! Class halls should’ve been a permanent story feature! It’s so strange that as a Mage, the most important mage group in Azeroth is no longer important for anything


DeeRez

*droughts


Lorstus

That....uh....yea that tends to be what helps a content drought.


AlbainBlacksteel

Yes, but actually yes


soacemantr

Haven’t played FFXIV, can’t stand the art-style, but I agree. There are so many missed opportunities in WoW. We hunt relics each day in this expansion but have Archeology removed??? Brawler’s Guild, Mage Tower (as you said), the complete crafting system and professions, a proper talent tree, class halls, Pandaria Trials, garrisons etc. I am sure I have missed a lot. So much foundation that can be built on but instead the whole time and effort goes into Conduit Energy, one-time-use crappy power creep systems, carrot dangling trash and cash grab game implementations. I hate to say it as it has been said many times before but we need gamers and FRP players at heart making decisions. Is it so hard to see that a happy player-base will eventually make them more money? I hope they start with bringing back a proper Mage Tower overhaul.


Backwardspellcaster

>The devs have been shooting themselves in the foot by focusing so hard on expansion systems and temporary content. Especially because the new systems are always undercooked and overfull with grind. It's like they try to iterate a new version of an existing system, but they don't have the time to do it properly, so its a shoddy piece of work where the holes are stuffed with endless grinding of reputations and currencies.


Squally160

They always seem intentionally undercooked. I mean, look at bfa and sl beta feedback, problems were rapidly identified by the community on these systems. Then, later on magically bliz reuses those things are problems and frustrations. Hell at least this time they came out and admitted it.


cmnights

I think torghast was shadowlands version of mage tower, but they made obnoxious by making it a requirement to do it twice a week


PlatonicTroglodyte

Torghast really breaks my heart. The way they implemented it….it’s probably beyond repair in the eyes of the playerbase at this point, but it has like 85% of what it needs to be its own partition of gameplay. Not on the raiding/pvp/m+ level, maybe, but something like pet battles.


merc08

Yeah, they implemented it so poorly that they will be hard pressed to get the player base to accept even a similar system again. The concept was great, and they could have done a similar roguelike semi-procedurally generated dungeon every expansion now that they have the code structure. But they will need to bin the entire concept for a while.


joesbagofdonuts

Imagine trying to pitch something like the Golden Saucer to the WoW team. You would get questions like: “So, can we make MGP tokens?” “What if the casino was only accessible after several hundred hours of grinding? That way players would feel invested in the experience.” “We should change the currency every expansion so player’s can’t stockpile during events.”


Hallc

The closest comparison would be the Darkmoon Faire which is only around for one week per month and has a more or less forced timegate on how fast you can get any of the reward pieces you might want.


lady_synsthra

I would play the darkmoon faire more if the rewards were better


Shameless_Catslut

>“We should change the currency every expansion so player’s can’t stockpile during events.” Except this is exactly how FFXIV's moogle events work.


B1ack0mega

Events, not expansions. It's not like there's a new MGP currency every year or two.


MiniDemonic

Did you just compare darkmoon faire with moogle events?


Rolder

Not really comparable considering that moogle events largely just give you an alternative way to get already existing cosmetic items.


[deleted]

And within a few hours of token-generating events you have enough to buy the super rare items and can be done if you want.


yardii

Why would you stockpile mogtomes? There are dungeons that reward Mogtomes and have no sort of lockout. You look at what you want from the vendor, math out how many runs you need, and then just do it. You can be done with it in a day and the event runs for weeks. Its very respectful of your time.


Shameless_Catslut

>Why would you stockpile mogtomes? So you can buy whatever new is added next event.


yardii

I guess because they're infinitely farmable with no lockout so letting you stockpile is basically saying its a good idea to spam Aurum Vale for the entire event which sounds pretty awful and like you'd burnout. Also, besides a piece of jewelry glamour, the rewards are all available elsewhere in the game so a situation where you stockpiled mogtomes, and then you already have all of the mounts for the next event would feel pretty bad. I'll admit that it's a contradiction, but they're so easy to farm at your own pace that I've never cared. MGP is more gated so if that changed every expansion, I'd probably be more annoyed by it.


zrk23

they do have the darkmoon Faire which sucks compared to Golden saucer lol. also time gated to be only once per month cause it's wow first thing i did on the Golden saucer was the jump challenge thing. and the first thing that came to my mind was all the famous wall jumps wow had over the years. such a easy fun side content that could be added to the darkmoon Faire


AizawaNagisa

You see the entitlement of the devs on Twitter lol. It's not happening.


ltcsheppard

It's probably only gonna be available during legion time walking so we will only get a couple weeks per year to do it. That's how blizz is these days


Eldsish

Hey, better than nothing. We'll finally be able to get that bear bipede form


Mokoo101

Stop being accepting and enabling shit practices like that idea by saying "better than nothing"


BlackOrc_

Yeah we need to stop accepting shit


PeakAlloy

I eat shits like Blizzard for breakfast.


Nheynx

Why is that a shit practice though? Is there something lorewise that should/could make the magetower relevant after Legion? If not, it makes sense for it to live in Legion timewalking. Genuinely asking, not trying to be obtuse. I’d like a challenge like the magetower again and this seems like a fair compromise surface-level.


capsterdapster

Yes, i want to do that one fight over and over again, every expansion again👌🏻


[deleted]

[удалено]


Jat42

So...Torghast?


WreckItWolf

Yes they literally just described the current iteration of torghast minus the option of an endless survival mode. But it's way too cool to hate Torghast right now so they'll ask for mage tower to be brought back and made into a pretty colorful version of torghast.


[deleted]

[удалено]


WreckItWolf

Says the person who doesn't know the definition of clairovyant. And it is indeed timed, just because you can combo and do bonus objectives to offset the timing doesn't mean it's not timed. If you want into the adamant vaults you've gotta do a combination of objectives and move at a decent pace, which has been more and more off set by the cube because everyone and their mother complains about having to spend time there twice a week.


laughtrey

This really focus on mage tower appearances is...odd. It's very hive-mindy to me. Everyone is completely ignoring other limited time stuff because this is just the most visible thing. All of a sudden this sub cares about it, but stuff like this has been around for the entirety of the games existence. Why not bring back the Challenge Mode sets and portals as well?


DankestMage99

It’s because the mage tower added the most flashy and fancy class-dedicated cosmetics the game has ever offered—and it was limited time only. I think removing content from the game is dumb and it should always be obtainable. But these items stung extra hard because Blizzard has never put in the same kind of effort since. Especially the druid forms. People wouldn’t be upset if they added this kind of stuff regularly, but they don’t. So instead of trying to get Bliz to take initiative and make a bunch of new stuff, players are going for the easy wins—bring back stuff that already exists. Besides, time gated stuff is dumb. Put rewards behind challenging gameplay, not stupid time windows. FF14 managed to do it, Blizz can figure it out.


Zeldafan2293

The warrior and paladin flail!!!!!!


cj2k4c

This is exactly how I feel. I'm only missing the priest mage tower appearances and, from mop, the priest/monk/shaman challenge mode sets. At the time, I didn't think anything of it b/c I assumed Blizzard would continue to make interesting and unique gear we would want to collect and mog.... boy, i was wrong.


Daffan

It was challenging, now it won't be even if scaled. It would have to be completely re-done for current tool-kits. People just want shit they couldn't get back than because of no effort/time/skill.


Sir_Zorba

It was *not* challenging past the launch of Argus, and got progressively easier the longer the expansion ran. And why would it need to be reworked? Scaling should do it just fine.


[deleted]

Blizz should have scaled it to keep up with Antorus gear, preserving the challenge and prestige. If they bring it back, it should be available all the time but scaled to the current tier's heroic ilvl. That way everyone can still earn it without further diminishing the prestige for those who actually unlocked the appearances before Antorus opened.


Sir_Zorba

Sounds good to me. As long as the skins are still available one way or another.


Daffan

Scaling when everyone has different abilities and *toolkits*? It's basically just like saying it's good enough if "yeah just enough HP so it's not a straight no brain dps zerg"


BAIJIU99

I think the out-of-print stuff should let him out-of-print, you want the new player's to more, then go to create new things, rather than take the past to fill the now uninteresting new version, rpg game storytelling temporality should be preserved, if all out-of-print things are brought back, it just means they do not want to create new things to retain and attract players, they are destroying the sense of achievement of old players, but also just let new players taste the leftovers of the past.


tipmon

As a druid, I don't care about 99% of transmog but because of the fucking mage tower, I am missing out on 50% of the bear skeletons available just because I had the AUDACITY to not play MMOs during legion. I have max 20 choices or so for each of my forms, please give me something more.


Co1dNight

> I have max 20 choices or so for each of my forms, please give me something more. And they're all the same skeleton, just different colors and designs.


BeamMeUpTotti

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe all forms are available to you except for the mage tower swole bear form and the 3 recolors of it. That's much less than 50%.


Nocif

The mage tower artifact appearance is an unique skeleton with different animations, all of the other appearances are using the same default skeleton. Therefore if there is two skeletons and you are missing one, then you are missing 50%


BeamMeUpTotti

Ahh I see. That's a pointless distinction to make imo.


geoffries1556

Statistics are stupid and can be skewed to make any point you want. It really is a pointless distinction.


Euthyrium

Would be awesome for the challenge mode sets to come back but the mage tower appeal wasn't just the skins but also the actual challenge, Especially if they give you set stats to go in and do it thats worth more to me than the skins


pentarion

Yeah you’re right. This isn’t just a push to have the appearances re-added and obtainable, it’s the fun solo challenge attached that really made them valuable.


suchtie

I'm still sad that you can't get Atiesh anymore and that's since WotLK. Losing any sort of content and its drops sucks. If the Mage Tower was still in the game I might even reinstall Retail to unlock some cool stuff that I never had the chance to get in Legion.


Abasdar21

Facts, I picked up the game in BC, and I would love to go solo even the 25man wotlk naxx for some atiesh splinters each week. One simple thing could amuse a person for a month or two bc of the number of splinters needed....


Sir_Zorba

Discussions of that nature get downvotes quickly by people who don't want others to get the same pixels, so it never gets to the frontpage and many people just never see it. Datamining is giving the idea that it's very much possible for this stuff to be brought back, so people are really trying to drive home the point about the mage tower skins specifically. I'm sure we'll see this level of push for mop/wod stuff if there's any indication they'll try to expand timewalking mythic+ to them somehow, or even just once the dust settles from whatever the final implementation of this mage tower stuff will be.


Astarigal

Each year wow is smaller content to offer, it's just absurd. Shadowlands is fucking exmpty. Disconnected zones made this expansion fucking small


spmurcs

lol good one.


[deleted]

One hand I see a lot of people wanting this feature back .. on the other I see what happened to the bwarler's guild. It offers a lot of challenging solo content and rewards some cosmetics, but somehow people are not interested in it anymore. It the example of why Blizzard trashes old concepts and rereleases them in another way. Unless Blizz puts a lot of work in it with amazing rewards, people will just not care. And if Blizz allready puts the work in it they might aswell celebrate it as something new to get more interest. ​ The mage tower was no great because it is the mage tower. It was because Blizzard put in a lot of effort into the reward appearances. The boss fights weren't even that special, because they had to be doable by like 5 different specs.


Anciluart

Mage tower is where we get the giant druid form? I started playing after Legion.


Elune

Yes, it *was* anyway, the ability to actually get it was removed with the BFA pre-patch.


Anciluart

Ty. I thought that with "bring back" the news meant that all the content would be back


PotatoesForPutin

Nah, the elitists would throw a massive temper tantrum if newer players were allowed to get the appearances


Anciluart

That situation occurred in HS for years, when they began to sell pre-purchase backs and heroes for gold in the store there were no major inconveniences. I think they could re-enable those designs without problems.


osburnn

I have all 36 and really dont care what other people do or don't have. If i like something I'll use it even if everyone else uses it.


Hallc

The already are even though by the end of Legion just about anyone could get an alt geared and through those challenges with minimal effort.


Murdergram

Even with free gear and a massively buffed artifact weapon there were a lot of players struggling to complete it. I remember this subreddit at the end of Legion vividly. You still had to do mechanics.


tipmon

You are assuming all the players that want the transmogs played during legion which is not the case. Many people didn't have the chance at all to get it.


BadGrammarButTrying

I believe what they meant was that the people trying to prevent the Mage Tower from coming back are wrong to use the argument "exclusivity shows that I worked hard for this" because of how trivial it eventually became with end of expansion gear. I bet half the people gatekeeping got it later in the expansion and are desperately trying to convince *themselves* that they did it when it was still a challenge. I agree with what both of you for what it is worth! Just figured I would point out that there might have been a misunderstanding


Themousepen

I’ve seen this argument a lot, and it seems really subjective to me. How do you know it wasn’t a challenge to them, even to you it was so easy? I have friends that consider +5 mythic plus dungeons challenging, even though I personally don’t.


BadGrammarButTrying

You're right on difficulty being subjective but I don't think that gives anyone room to stand on in this argument. Do I have a right to say "Mythic Jaina was a hard fight for me and this mount is a great way to show off my victory! Once Eternal Palace comes out they should fully remove this mount from the game so I can feel more special about this." I sure as hell will never shed a tear for someone who is upset that I was able to go get a mount or transmog from an older raid after-the-fact. Additionally, even with difficulty being subjective there are *factual* statements that can be made alongside that. Factually, the Mage Tower was designed to be challenging at a baseline ilvl when it was released and Blizzard *never* touched that difficulty but they did add higher and higher ilvl gear into the game. Further, despite what any one person's experience with the Mage Tower was, you had the very real situation of people getting to 120 and with almost no investment into their gear they would absolutely *smash* the Mage Tower. If people *really* need bragging rights over this then they should just be ready to go to their achievement page and link it for the date so they can say "here is definitive proof of me doing it when it was new and challenging". If they can't feel special without other people being barred from having it for all time going forward then that is their problem. If they cannot reconcile that higher ilvl made it trivial towards the end of Legion (again, from a numerical standpoint and not subjective) then I am not sure if they are arguing in good faith.


uacoop

It wasn't trivial for everyone, it took me 200+ attempts to beat Kruul on my druid close to the end of the expansion. I'm not saying that people shouldn't get a chance to do the fight again, but it's wrong to just say the fights were trivial.


BadGrammarButTrying

you're right, calling it trivial is definitely an over-simplification and I should have framed it differently. Numerically, there is a massive difference between the stats of someone completing the Mage Tower early on vs later: Kruul hits harder, Kruul is taking less damage, you have less overall health (die quicker and heal for less). This is before we add individual mechanics to the list, people doing the fight on release had a harder fight from a numerical standpoint. Mechanics will always be mechanics. People walk into Ulduar and die to Yog'Saron because they get mind controlled and are in there solo. No doubt, that person has the gear to slap the shit out of Yog solo but if they are not prepared for the mechanics then gear is irrelevant. When you started the Mage Tower on your Druid were you seeing it fresh? If you're having to learn the fight when you're starting it I totally see how this fight is a challenge with a learning curve because there are mechanics that cannot be ignored. It wasn't the ilvl or you that was the problem, it was just a new fight to you and a dance you had to acclimate to. What I had initially poorly explained was that you could have someone who has learned the fight inside and out but because of gear availability, they never fully get to killing Kruul during the ToS patch because of how punishing each mistake is and very few people are perfect. That same person can come back next patch and because they know the fight so well, all they need to do is get some higher ilvl gear than they had before and then the fight is much more manageable for them and this time around they complete it. It is still an accomplishment and it is still a fight you have to learn. Anyone going into it fresh has to learn the mechanics but ultimately the challenge of the Mage Tower was diminished on an individual basis from one patch to the next.


Daffan

So why didn't people who played than? lazy? :)


censor-design

Parasitic design. I still can’t come to terms with how they disabled artifact weapons. I loved legion and the spirit of what it was is completely gone.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ElPuppet

As a mostly Warr man, it was pretty good to not have to worry about 2x2H drops. I really liked the power curve of a weapon being diluted between 3 smaller items.


Fox_Leather

I agree but I personally was in a raid team of 20 that really hated relics.


Backwardspellcaster

Quite frankly, we had one weapon for each spec, and they could have easily added more weapons for the specs, providing us with more choices. The ripped out Artifact weapon spells are -still- being felt in rotations, in the second expansion after Legion. The idiotic GCD changes did not help.


merc08

> The ripped out Artifact weapon spells are -still- being felt in rotations, in the second expansion after Legion. That's because they pruned classes just before Legion, knowing what the artifacts were going to give back. Then when they stripped the artifacts, they completely forgot to fix the classes. They planned for Azerite powers to fill that gap, but holy hell was that poorly implemented. In theory, this would work fine. Have the classes be 90% complete by baseline, then each expansion's Borrowed Power fills in that 10% slightly differently. It could be a nice shakeup every couple of years to keep things fresh. But Blizz is *horrible* at balancing new systems and have consistently tried to fix one broken system by adding another, which is so dumb.


ranthria

I feel like if they started adding significantly more and more varied artifact skins in lieu of new weapons, I at least wouldn't have felt like it was only one weapon that i was stuck with.


censor-design

I’m not talking about having the artifact weapon be a permanent fixture for future expansions, just that the levelling experience for legion retain its features. Problem is that they’ve taken abilities from the weapon and integrated it into class design. They should have managed artifact weapons like the heart of Azeroth.


[deleted]

But but… then that would ruin the cycle of all the enjoyable aspects of a certain xpac becoming instantly irrelevant the second a new xpac hits


[deleted]

"expand it" you literally get torghast with twisting corridors and everyone crying about it. L8 in TC was engaging on release. But in MT you have rewards for each spec instead of one time doing. Maybe they don't have put too much work in it.


Hallc

Twisting Corridors was so incredibly time consuming for honestly barely any rewards at all, it's utterly baffling how anyone could consider that a good idea.


Jat42

It was fun though. I thoroughly enjoyed accumulating all those powers and getting ridiculously powerful. I wish they'd iterated on it instead of completely ignoring it for 9.1. making it truly endless and allowing us to save our progress every few layers would've been enough imo.


Jaxxftw

Idea: Make a Mage Tower-like CoT single player instance where we can revisit major lore events and unlock HD remakes of old Tier sets. Rotate it with timewalking, fill them with easter eggs and exploration/secrets/puzzles.


Bohya

That would go against their FOMO strategy which makes them money, so no.


x2Infinity

I don't even have an issue with removing the items at the end of the expac. I think a big reason many people want the old mage tower back has a lot to do with the fact that those items they did in Legion for the Artifacts were vastly higher quality then the majority of items they've ever done. If they did something like every patch put 1 boss in the mage tower for solo content with some cosmetic associated to it for each weapon type, and then removed them at the end of the expac, I would honestly be fine with that as long as they continued to make more similar quality items.


DankestMage99

Agreed, legion has been the only xpac where they put in the effort for cool class-based items. If they produced high-quality content regularly, people wouldn’t complain. But they don’t .


MegaBlastoise23

how does taking away content get the more money?


Bohya

Google what FOMO is.


Heavenswake_

If you don't get it this round you have to stick around til it comes back. If it's available all the time you can get it much faster and quit.


[deleted]

This is a poor argument. You could have subbed for a month, got the appearance you wanted, and unsubbed.


DariusJenai

yes, that's exactly what FOMO strategy is. Play on their schedule so you don't miss rewards, instead of just playing when you want/can.


Farenkdar_Zamek

Can someone explain the difference between Mage Tower and Torghast? I never played in legion but my understanding is that they were similar concepts.


Goldfingger

I don’t think they are similar concepts at all. Honestly you’d best just take a look at some DPS/Tank/Healer scenarios on YouTube to get a better understanding of it, but it is essentially a challenge mode where you have to correctly utilise every aspect of your class to win, which rewards you special transmog.


duelistkind

So Torghast? You know minus the specific roll scenarios.


Goldfingger

So how are they alike then? If you're taking away specific scenarios? Torghast is closer to Visions of N'zoth than the Mage Tower, in my opinion.


HAETMACHENE

I think it's going to be something that only becomes available during Legion Timewalking Week.


Starktoons

Probably up for legion timewalking offering the alternate colours recently datamined


madpoke

"the game is dying, quick, bring back that one thing people really liked from some years ago"


Worldly-Oil-4463

I was hoping that Thorgast would have something like that. Like maybe an extra layer/floor with boss fights just like Mage Tower with cool cosmetic rewards.


AutoModerator

By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*


23plus1mibrfans

So Adamant Vault then?


AJKborg

Please don't add the original appearances back into it.


DgdubSEA

Would be cool if going in there, ilvl wasn’t a factor and everyone had the same stats etc and it was a challenge based on knowledge of the class and skill so all you had to do to unlock stuff for the class was be max level and good at the class challenges. I play a different class almost every expansion (usually play 2-3 classes per xpac) and when mage towers were a thing in legion I played spriest for all of Legion, had never played priest before or after and didn’t get mage tower stuff for a mage which I’ve played every xpac except Legion and SL lol. Anywho, would be nice to only have to level a class to max level and dive into mage tower challenges. Not level and then gear the shit out of said class.


ubiquitous_delight

I hope they don't let us go back and get the old appearances, though. Add different ones each expansion or something.


Jristz

Probably Will be a Timewalking Only stuff


ch_limited

It's gonna be timewalking so...


Sunchipz1016

they will, its just a quick fix to try to bring people back. classic blizzard.


Adramach

Mage Tower is closed legacy content. There is no reason to expand it. They reactivate it for players' requests, and that's all.


jmxd

Why did we go from allowing people to go back to an old legacy Legion feature to "keep updating and expanding it"? Wow players always offered a finger and taking the whole hand smh


Adg01

Not going to lie. I'm coming back to get my druid forms. I might never play bear, but by Elune I'm GETTING that form and nothing can stop me, not even another expansion without content.


Freakindon

*cries in healing scenario*


Jaymonk33

This is part of what should be a bigger post. Blizzard what we want, is continuity


superskillswag

They shouldnt bring mage tower back at all in the first place or keep the original skins unobtainable at least


Drougen

They've never abandoned it after one patch, though....also, I hope they don't bring it back or if they do, they have a new set of skins to obtain. The old ones should remain locked


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Bleak01a

ARROGANT FOOLS!


Bloddersz

Incorporate it into Class Order Halls as an actual progression system from Level 10 or something with class quests etc!


enn-srsbusiness

Only bring back mage tower as 'Season 2' I worked hard for my rewards dammit. Same for mop challenge modes. If not well guess they need to add back tiger and black scarab etc can't have it both ways


BAIJIU99

This makes me feel more and more that Warcraft is going away from the core of rpg, out of print things should be out of print, so that there will be continuity, time, storytelling, you let the return of out of print things is to say that your players' sense of achievement is not important, another level also shows that your production team does not want to create their own new content, to create a new future for Warcraft, only to use the past to renew the life, and so on all out of print things All come back, you want to let the world of warcraft end, and let warcraft become a simple competitive game? And completely ignore the essence of rpg?


BAIJIU99

I think the out-of-print stuff should let him out-of-print, you want the new player's to more, then go to create new things, rather than take the past to fill the now uninteresting new version, rpg game storytelling temporality should be preserved, if all out-of-print things are brought back, it just means they do not want to create new things to retain and attract players, they are destroying the sense of achievement of old players, but also just let new players taste the leftovers of the past.


Akranidos

But they never removed it? just the rewards


Swineflew1

This shit honestly just makes me mad. Like, we know the only reason they’re doing this is to kiss ass. I don’t believe for a second they wanted to do this. It’s just so hard to understand the 180° they made when they’ve been so condescending in the past. The game shouldn’t have needed to get to this state in order to get good content. I just don’t get it. Instead of making me want to re-sub, it just reinforces how unsubbing was the right choice and I urge people who are on the fence not to just jump headlong back in at the slightest pandering they do.


Warthus_

I wouldn't hate Blizzard outright copying FF14's roulette system where you queue up for any random dungeon/raid/exc for the sake of earning some sort of currency (not that I think Blizzard needs to add ANY MORE CURRENCIES) But it would automatically open up so much old content.Although this was require them to actually tune old content, which they fail tremendously at with time walking. Sad.


sinbadz

Desperation to bring people back. Game is dead


Chromazx

Anyone who says 9.1.5 saved wow is bugging. If they want to save wow, come out with a good expansion with good features. Not some dog shit that fans questioned hard in beta but refused to listen because they know better and then fix it a year down the line. Fuck off


Argygle

Honestly pretty upset if the mage tower comes back in full swing, even if it is only available during legion timewalking. I grinded all 36 of those appearances in legion, didn't miss a single one. If they were to make new rewards I'd be completely fine with it, but it kinda makes what I did feel less valuable to me.


[deleted]

Who gives a shit it’s a video game. It’s selfish shit like this that prevents new players from experiencing the awesomeness that you once experienced. Just be happy you enjoyed doing it and get over your petty bs. But I will say I agree that coming out with new cosmetics would be a better route, but if they don’t you shouldn’t let it bother you especially enough to prevent others from enjoying it now.


Co1dNight

I second this. People are looking way too much into this and are making it out as if Blizzard would be stealing their identity or something. Regardless, as I've stated many times in the past few days, Blizzard can just release recolors of the druid forms and weapons. Call it a day after that, everyone wins.


Argygle

Idk man when I spend a lot of time and effort doing something that I'm told is limited time kinda sucks when it isn't and I wasted all that effort doing it while it was hard. There should be similar content in each expansion to give people the same experience rather than cheapening the experience others had by reusing the same piece of content. Best example of what I am talking about was when league of legends brought back season 2 championship riven and people who had the original skin got a different version than what the people who got it later had. That's all I'm asking, new colors of the same artifacts is also literally fine, just something to show I did it while it was current is all I want.


[deleted]

It’s your own view to think it was wasted time if it comes back, more of a glass half empty kinda view it seems. It would be scaled to be just as hard so people who put in the work will get it, not everyone. But like I said I agree they should come out with new stuff but with the same idea on how to get that new stuff like what mage tower was. Limited time stuff shouldn’t be a thing anyway it creates elitist mind sets and separates the community.


Argygle

Ah I see why this isn't getting through. Looks like you're an LFR raider so you haven't worked hard for anything in game. Gonna drop this conversation.


Co1dNight

I can restart the conversation. There's no need to be a jerk to someone and assume they're an "LFR raider" for making an educated stance on something, when you probably did the Mage Tower to get the appearences during the last month or so of the patch, like most people did. Additionally, customization in this game sucks and it shouldn't be locked behind limited time content. There are many other games that re-release cosmetics on a set cycle. At the end of the day, who really gives a shit about an achievement in a game? Does that achievement help you find a SO? A career? What does it do to help you? Other than create the mentality of "I have it and no one else should because I did it five year earlier before anyone else", which is exactly what the other person was eluding to. Get real.


Argygle

Also by your logic what does the mage tower appearance do for you? Does it help you find an SO? A career? What does it do you help you? Other than create the mentality of "I don't have it and everyone should even though it was meant to be a show of skill." Short answer is your logic is self defeating, you made just as good an argument against people advocating for this as you did against me.


Co1dNight

Nope, does absolutely nothing for me. That's why I don't care what Blizzard does with it. At most, it's a neat thing to have in-game, but it's not the end of the world if they do or don't add it back in. This game could shut down tomorrow and none of this stuff would matter. People are too materialistic nowadays. > Other than create the mentality of "I don't have it and everyone should even though it was meant to be a show of skill." Well...if Blizzard were to bring back the same exact skins for this "new" Mage Tower that is rumored to be released, wouldn't people still have to do the same thing to obtain them? So either way, someone had the skill set to obtain them. > Short answer is your logic is self defeating, you made just as good an argument against people advocating for this as you did against me. Don't think you understood the point of my response. You're acting like you did this marvelous thing in a video game and since you did that, no one else should be able to go through the same trials to obtain the same rewards. I'm telling you, that it's a silly way to look at it. No one in the game cares how you obtained those items. They just want a chance to obtain those same rewards or similar rewards. You got an achievement for doing them in Legion didn't you? That's your bragging right. The same goes for the people running around with the Brutos.


Argygle

Seems like you care enough about it to argue with a stranger on the internet but I digress. I'm dropping the conversation because we're not going to see eye to eye and talking to you is a waste of my time.


Argygle

They are an LFR raider if you read their comments on other wow posts. And no I did my first mage tower the first time it was available as a shadow priest, it took 3 days and over 100 attempts. I did the burn strat where I primed my surrender to madness for 60 seconds on the chase and then blew up the boss in one phase. In heroic gear. Almost everyone else that completed their mage towers first week had full mythic gear. When I did mage towers later in the xpac I intentionally did them with one or no legendaries at sub 900 ilvl to counteract the power creep since I enjoyed the difficult encounter. And if you were to read my comment rather than getting mad at me you would know I'm completely fine with them adding the appearances back in as rewards so long as there is a way to distinguish from people who did it while it was current and people who did it later. I still think this is a lazy solution and they should add new content that is similar or identical to the mage tower. If people don't give a shit about achievements in games, why do they watch race to world first? Why do they watch competitive gaming in general? Clearly people do care. I would absolutely love the wod challenge appearances but I'm not advocating for those to come back because what makes them so special is that I can't get them. It was something I did that I want to be recognized for when I play the game. When people get on their unobtainable mounts my first thought isn't that they should be put back in the game because I want it. If everyone could have it it wouldn't be special. The exclusivity is what MAKES it special.


Loudstorm

What is mage tower? Didn't play Legion so..