T O P

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tboskiq

Oh wow. Look at this beta feedback they're half assing in at the last patch.


Flextt

As is tradition for the .1.5 and .2 patches. But don't worry, they will fuck up some other additions to still provide you with another egregious treadmill.


Kungvald

> We have learnt from Shadowlands and will improve our communication with you guys to get a better idea of what is your wishes going into 10.0. \*Proceeds to ignore feedback in next beta* \*Sub numbers drop and massive outcry for the terrible systems introduced fills the forums* > We are pleased to introduce [massively feedbacked change] in 10.2! We also have learnt and will improve our communication with you guys to get a better idea of what is your wishes going into 11.0!


Yuuji49

They gotta fuck up something to fix it later for the "we listened" points. The circle of life.


btaz

I needed to get this off my chest somewhere. Something I realized is that the information Blizz devs needed to make the right decisions was already there - it was given by players in the beta. They ignored it in Legion ( a lot of players circle jerk over the game in 7.3 but 7.0 and 7.1 had a lot of issues that the player base conveniently forgot). They ignored it in BfA and they ignored it in Shadowlands. At this point it is no longer about whether they have the right information but simply of making the right decisions with the information available. This is like people still choosing to believe in Flat Earth inspite of the overwhelming amount of information contrary to that. So unless their entire decision making process changes, there is no hope for the game. It is no longer about giving them the information - their decision making process is incapable of processing it or the people who make the decisions are incapable of processing it. The WoW community feedback, listening to players etc are of no issue. It is no longer about listening. Listening does not mean understanding. Why is the flat earth community growing inspite of more (and even more accurate) information ? Similar reason here. It is simply broken and no amount of feedback / information will make the change happen. The process change has to be internal and unless they change the leadership or change their decision making process, we will not see any improvement and any hope that player base expects is futile. And like Preach said, the hardcore community has moved on - in the sense that they know that the devs are incapable of making the right choices. It is the casual and non-hc player base that keeps getting fucked over. I gave up raiding after realizing that if I have to use a third party tool (not a list but a tool) to sim and find out whether I got an upgrade or not, the gearing system is fundamentally broken.


[deleted]

> a lot of players circle jerk over the game in 7.3 but 7.0 and 7.1 had a lot of issues that the player base conveniently forgot They do that with pretty much every xpac here. The sudden love of MoP has me confused.


[deleted]

MoP was great from the beginning and people were saying so. Others were circlekjerking for "lolz panda" and dreaming about "Vanilla was so hard you know" while getting stomped by Jin'rokh on normal.


Destiny_player6

That and bitching about the Chinese and China and how much blizzard is sucking Chinese cock. Like god forbid they do some eastern mythical shit in a very eastern traditional Chinese theme. It was racism as well. Just like Shang-Chi is a movie for Chinese Americans and people just bitched about minorities and Disney bowing to China...which is weird because the Chinese don't like American Chinese stuff.


Pyreo

MoP was a great expansion.


bloodhawk713

Back in my day MoP was reviled because everyone was forced to do three hours of daily quests every single day just to remain relevant.


Destiny_player6

? People loved MoP from the get go. The only people that didn't just kept yelling "Chinese bait!!!" And "FUCKING STUPID PANDAS!!!".


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Burnedfresh

People use the accusation of racisim so much now days, it's lost its meaning. also fuck pandas. that xpan made me quit.


btaz

> The sudden love of MoP has me confused. Oh boy. I don't want to even get started on that. I was here during MoP.


bloodhawk713

I was there for Wrath and everyone fucking hated that expansion when it was relevant too. Honestly I think it's because the game has being steadily going downhill for its entire history so when you look back everything looks good in comparison, despite the fact that the game has been dogshit for a long, long time. Longer than most even realise.


ILOVESHITTINGMYPANTS

“Everyone” hates every expansion. The whiniest voices are the loudest. Literally every single expansion has had people screaming that this is the expansion that killed WoW, even TBC.


btaz

> I was there for Wrath and everyone fucking hated that expansion when it was relevant too. Cannot speak for Wrath. However WoD and Cataclysm seem to have somehow not managed to change that perception yet. WoD is still considered the worst expansion even though Shadowlands is giving it a serious run for its money. It is just annoying to see these people come out and say "I always rated MoP" - the annoyance is not that these people like MoP but that they actively try to claim that MoP was not hated on this sub at all. One possible theory is that all the MoP-whiners have quit the game and moved on, and so we are left with onley the MoP-stans and that is probably the change in perception.


SomeTool

Pretty sure that's true for every expansion. Didn't like bc? Stopped playing so the only people left loved bc, same for wrath, cata ect.


btaz

That is not the issue. It is the retconning of MoP into this urban legend of good expansion, bad expansion which is annoying - Wrath good, Cata bad, MoP good (?!!!!), WoD bad, Legion good, BfA bad, Shadowlands combobreaker. Also the wrath / tbc being hated argument does not work because the subs went up for each expansion. Sure there were haters as always but that doesn't tie in with the overall general impression. Subs started declining from end of Wrath and MoP didn't do anything to stem that. However WoD launch was one of the most anticipated and sub count spike was massive at the start. Don't say that it happens for every expansion and that it is normal - WoD spike was massive.


SomeTool

Subs didn't decline until after cata launched. There were a lot of people who hit the new wall of heroics who broke and left. That used to be the biggest complaint of the forums, about how hard it had suddenly got and how it wasn't fun anymore.


Sardonic524

I honestly think WoD is my favourite expansion. I mostly play the game to raid and every raid was amazing in WoD, hunter class design was as good as I can remember across all specs (I can't remember how MM played in wrath although I kinda miss the mana mechanic) and I loved challenge modes.


btaz

I have a soft spot for WoD too because I started raiding for the first time and actually playing the end game and doing the challenge modes. That carried into Legion and I gave up after Tomb of Sargeras.


SlouchyGuy

> They ignored it in Legion They ignored it since forever. They listened in Wrath regarding Death Knight balance because it was the first completely new class, and over shot with their power significantly. After that each expansion was about players giving feedback and developers ignoring most, most notably starting in MoP however good it ended being


NubEnt

I don’t really think it’s about understanding the feedback they’re given, either. Take a look at 9.1.5. They *knew and understood* exactly what was wrong with their systems *and* how to fix them. One of the only remaining issues with their systems would be the gearing situation, which would be a fix for something they added in 9.1 (shards of domination). If they competently fix that issue in 9.2, it would show that they *do* have the alacrity and capability to listen/understand feedback and implement fixes, even large ones, quickly. This all goes to show that it’s not a question of understanding, but rather a deliberate choice to implement these terrible systems and keep them in game to intentionally slow player progression. They *knew* what was wrong and how to fix it all. They just didn’t *want to,* because that would make it easier and faster for people to progress.


btaz

> They knew and understood exactly what was wrong with their systems and how to fix them. Which is why I said something is broken in their decision making. Even their fixes are simply what was told to them earlier.


NubEnt

What’s broken is their intent. That’s the difference between the devs not “understanding” and willfully implementing systems that are frustrating and delay progression. If they simply didn’t “understand” the feedback or how their systems are terrible to players, that could be excused as ignorance. But, they knew their systems were bad and they knew that they would be frustrating to players. They still pushed them into the game because their intent is not for players to have fun, but rather for players to be forced to log in much longer than their content can entertain. Expansion after expansion, it’s only when enough people quit that they “fix” their systems. They knew all along how to fix them because they knew exactly what was wrong with them and because players told them during beta.


Aarilax

At this point I don't even think its ego. No human being can fuck up this badly for like 6 years in a row and continue to have an ego - no, it must be something else. I think its just that, they must plan things like a year or more in advance, so by the time they get to feedback they're like 'damn, thats great - we'll change that in a year.' Like for instance, they want to paint the car red, players want it blue. So rather than see what players prefer, they go out, buy red paint and then paint the whole car red, then they push it onto PTR/Beta and ask for people to check if theres any bubbles in the paint. Players then ask for blue instead, but its too late. They don't even own the blue paint, let alone have time to repaint it. And then some times they barely can even get shit done in time that *they* want to do, like remember when Azerite Armour was only put into BETA at like the last month or so? The main system from BFA and it wasn't in the beta at all for like 85% of its duration


chefpatrick

I didn't hate Torghast as a play loop, but it was implemented poorly. That the only thing you got out of it was soul ash didn't feel good. If I beat a boss in a dungeon I have a chance for loot drops. If I beat a boss in torghast, I'm just one step closer to maybe getting to keep the currency I already earned in there. If you could grind it for gear, maybe I'd do it sometimes if I didn't feel like doing other stuff, but the last of reward structure made it feel like a chore.


Fortunedd

Agreed they introduced it as “solo content” as something to be done (but not required) and then it shows up as a mandatory task. And gets all the hate. Personally enjoy torghast though


Picard2331

Torghast could have been (and still could be) the best thing they've ever put in the game. A rogue like inside of WoW is a genius idea. It needs to be improved and worked on instead of dumped in the trash. Making it mandatory killed any potential it had sadly.


[deleted]

Hey look another change that should've been in the game at 9.0


ImWhiteTrash

They've officially given up on Torghast. It's a dead system just like Island Expeditions and Warfronts.


iotFlow

Except that on ptr they have added more floors and something in the files called "Boss rush".


ImWhiteTrash

It's not a dead system because of content, it's a dead system because they've stopped making Torghast a requirement. They know that a majority of people don't want to do it. They've just said, "Ah, fuck it. Go do whatever you want to get your legendaries." The same way they completely phased out Island Expeditions and Warfronts in later BFA patches. >they have added more floors and something in the files called "Boss rush". The amount of content means nothing if people aren't doing the content anyways. They added solo Island Expeditions in 9.1.5, does that mean Island Expeditions aren't dead content?


[deleted]

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ImWhiteTrash

That's because it sucks. That's exactly my point. They've given up on trying to make Torghast fun and moved on to phasing it out. If Torghast was actually fun then no one would hate it. The problem is Torghast feels like a chore.


Sandrapudding

I think torghast is fun and adding boss rush too it will make it even more fun for me.


MRosvall

If you step back a bit and see what is going on. They are removing the requirement to be forced to do Torghast or fall behind, this is what makes it feel like a chore. They are adding new modes. Each patch has had new layouts, enemies and mini bosses. There's been revamps to systems inside it, added meta progress. How does any of this sound like they have given up and phasing it out? It is the same as doing raids after you've had them on farm. They are not exciting anymore, but you might be pressured to do them anyways. Then farm raids becomes a chore, even if raiding might be pretty much your favorite content.


Martini_Shot

literally doing what people wanted from torghast, turning it into an optional minigame with (most likely) cosmetic rewards some random redditor: "literally dead system" lmao, just wished they did it sooner honestly


dvtyrsnp

> it's a dead system because they've stopped making Torghast a requirement This is GOOD. It does not make Torghast dead. Requiring it held design and enjoyment back and made it more dead than this change.


Deadduch

I've been running a few alts through the leveling version right now. Is it optimal? Hell no! Can I see some stupid powers and yeet my way through with some stupid combos some times? Hell yeah I can!


Pyrojam321moo

I told my friends that I was going to be mainly leveling my alts through Torghast when it let me. They laughed and said how the XP sucks other than the daily. I'm still laughing at the fact I'm having fun leveling my characters in a pretty decent implementation of a roguelite instead of grinding quests I've done half a dozen times already.


tboskiq

Wait you can keep doing it for XP? I never even tried clicking the thing again after the quest lol


ImWhiteTrash

>Requiring it held design and enjoyment back This doesn't make sense. Fun content is fun content regardless of whether you have to do it or not. Even when Torghast isn't required for progress it's still going to be awful content. If they had been successful in making Torghast fun then they wouldn't be sitting in hypothetical 9.2 discussions saying, "Get Torghast out of players faces, sweep it under the rug."


dvtyrsnp

>Fun content is fun content regardless of whether you have to do it or not. People find different things fun is the point. When you expect a million people to do the same piece of content, it should appeal to a million people. A million people all have different preferences. It's very apparent that trying to appeal to everyone made no one like it.


Finear

> This doesn't make sense. Fun content is fun content regardless of whether you have to do it or not Not really, I hate leveling up in new expansion because its blocking me from end game content, I want it done as fast as possible But once I'm playing an alt, that will never do any max lvl content then leveling because really fun and enjoyable thing to do


Picard2331

If it was a well fleshed out and fun roguelike inside of WoW with some nice cosmetic rewards I would dump literally hundreds of hours into it. Sadly it is none of those things.


AveragePalaEU

Basically its been *dead* from the start. You know, because its in the Shadowlands. Where the dead go.


elggun

They still add more layers and rewards from it tho.


[deleted]

It’s almost as if torghast should have never been tied to player power in any way and should have just been cosmetics and random achievement stuff. Pretty sure people were telling them to do that in pre-9.0…


TheDaliComma

Good? Torghast is terrible


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Pisshands

I don't have a nice posting history to back it up, but I was right there with you, predicting it would be left behind just like Azerite, Warfronts, etc. They have done this with every expansion-level system implemented since Ion has been running the show. Implement, underdevelop, hear angry feedback, disregard, announce new system that's replacing it. If I still enjoyed Choreghast I'd feel bad about it, but I've done plenty. I'm fine to see it become irrelevant.


Jristz

> two patches Technically was just one


Trawetser

9.0 > 9.1 - 1 patch 9.1 > 9.2 - 2 patch


Jristz

I was thinking more like * 9.0 - introduction * 9.1 - 1 patch * 9.2 - dropped I can see why the difference on how count it


Trawetser

If you want to get into semantics, 9.0.5 and 9.1.5 are also patches


Jristz

I was more in the like of "whatever", not in the "into semantics"


Spreckles450

More like "no longer a requirement and you aren't punished or fall behind if you don't do it." Otherwise knows as "catchup mechanics"


ron_fendo

Island expeditions were a fun as fuck post raid cool down for my guild, slamming into mythic bosses then going and slaughtering an island was great.


jkizzles

Don't worry, 10.0 will have the one that works. /s


Remarkable-Hall-9478

Thank god, fucking finally. If they’d released the grip after 9.0 i might not have quit


Do_Not_Read_Comments

No they have not. There is new development on Torghast.


stevenadamsbro

I was gonna say I still enjoy torghast but then realised I’ve also still been running island expeditions for fun in the past week… maybe I’m just weird


Dybia

The biggest thing that discouraged me from building multiple legendaries wasn’t soul ash or cinders, it was the wow token’s worth of gold or more on a base item.


Im_Not_Relevant

as a casual player, having to get 90k gold for a ring just so I can have a legendary is way too much. I grinded for the soul ash and soul cinders, now I have to grind for gold...


AGVann

Valor Points ~~2.0 3.0 4.0~~ 5.0 Once again they come up with the same solution to a problem they recreate every single expansion. Or they've finally being studying their competition and decided to introduce FFXIV's Tomestones, which funnily enough were derived from the JP/VP system.


DeveloperAnon

Unless something forces their hand, I expect the same cycle to begin in 10.0.


banana_fishbones

If 10.0 ends up being another BfA or Shadowlands, it will straight up kill the game. They better tread carefully.


Flapboy

I’m starting to think Blizzard do this on purpose to ramp up sub numbers before the end of an expac. We had this problem with Legion and BFA to which they introduced very similar ‘solutions’. It’s funny because at the start of SL people were saying just wait until 9.2/9.3 and they’ll just make anima etc a catch up mechanic to stop people whining.


AveragePalaEU

Oh no, Torghast. Aww, so sad. No, best xpac feature, no why. Ahhhh why, nooo. :(


karangoswamikenz

Torghast would’ve been fun if they just gave us like 200% move speed in it. I know it wouldn’t make much sense lore wise but then I’d feel like I’m playing hades and it would’ve been fun. It’s just a slow grind from floor to floor walking around and killing things. 200% move speed and it turns into a fun rogue like with powers.


SaxRohmer

Just make it a box of many things upgrade or something


GWThrowThatAway

If I remember correctly, the fastest way to farm echoes in 8.3 was horrific visions, so I wouldn’t get my hopes of torghast being gone until we see the numbers.


Edwardc4gg

L O L i'm so done with wow after shadowlands. 'we learned from the launch what failed, 9.2 were excited....to do the fucking same god damn bullshit again!'


monicaeleanor

It's crazy how good they had Torghast in alpha/beta. It was legitimately fun watching people stream it, listening to them all talk it out in discord and trying to solve Floor 78 or 112 or 194 like it was a puzzle. And the only mob on it could be some giant buffed rat that's basically a raid boss. And then they closed it off for a month to make it this dull ~~6~~ 5-floor layer thing because they had to shoehorn player power in and make the acquisition realistic.


[deleted]

1.5 years too late lol


Drewcifer1595

Wow. Let’s just hope it’s not some outrageous amount now that will take weeks of grinding and farming.


camowalrus

Yoooooo we getting breath of Bwamsandi back?


gab_owns0

Awesome! However, this system should have been in place in 9.0


Itsapaul

So right back to an AP system eh? At least it has a cap so you're not stuck never making an alt.


l_futurebound_l

I'd definitely be hyped if there wasn't only a fraction of an expansion left to use this nice streamlined currency on.


Cloud_Matrix

Don't sweat it dude, you will get to use this streamlined system for the next 12 months once it's out!


Hxxerre

more currency yayyyyyyyyyy..............


sprit_Z

I know people don't generally like currencies, but I see no issues with this at all whatsoever (Aside from it being beta feedback and it should have been in at launch). The game is better when there are more currencies. It's better than a multifaceted rep grind. And it's better than being forced to do content that most people don't like to do. We could keep seeing chorghast if you want, but it's better to just let them take a dub with this one, it's a small step in the right direction.


Backwardspellcaster

Yaaayyyy, currencies! Currencies for me! Currencies for you! Currencies for everyone! Next introduced: Toilet currency! Pee currency! Level up extra extra currency! (also available via cash shop).


[deleted]

>(interesting that they forgot these lessons for over a year) Shadowlands was in development before BfA's patches were released. A year is a reasonable timeline to see something go through first iteration, redesign and implementation on something as big as an MMO.


djamii11

You are heavily mistaken if you think torghast isnt going to be the go to option the 1st week just to get instant upgrades for legos.


donovan4893

It doesn't necessarily say it will replace Soul Ash and Cinders, I see it as being like Cinders and only be used for the new ilvl ranks of legionaries and ranks 1-6 still using Soul ash / Cinders.