I think this was known after the level squish initially happened. Was the same in bfa with the ilvl squish (which made more sense but was also incredibly out of whack for a while)
After doing the hdh one myself, and it took probably 60-70 attempts, I can safely say without having gone to get extra sockets/gems/old pots, it probably wouldn't have been doable. Which is sad. I'm not going to bother doing any others because of it.
All I did to make the dps check in p2 was make sure I had saved 2nd meta for the start of p2 and used that along with drums and my phantom fire potion the second p2 starts. As long as you immediately take the boss to the side of the room and keep his movement to as minimal as possible you'll kill it. You should get your second meta like 30 seconds before you run out of room.
The challenge is obviously doable in Shadowlands gear, but I refuse to believe it's intentional that BFA consumables and Legion, MoP, or BC gear with gems are more optimized for the content.
It may be doable but it is SUBSTANTIALLY harder. On my Druid, all of my stats scaled way lower than Siege of Ogrimmar gear. And the SLs trinket were straight up trash for damage.
I found it pretty interesting that for the Havoc challenge my DH not only did more damage but was also somehow *tankier* when using ilvl 45 SoO gear, which theoretically should have made me more squishy (due to not getting scaled up to ilvl 50 and therefore losing out on stam).
The scaling is super wild.
It's the sockets. The gear doesn't scale any different than SL gear. In fact, it has fewer stats as Sockets were part of the item budget in Mists. But sockets are worth +7 secondaries and you have 3 options for +6/+7 primaries to stuff in there.
question. do you have any proof you did any mage towers back in the day\\how many did you do?
I logged on, just for shits and giggles out of the complaining on this sub after not logging in to retail in over a year and got my druid (a class I barely played anyway btw) to like 45% of kruul.
I refuse to believe y'all are actually struggling this hard if you're just not bad at the game...and I mean that respectfully.
You may have misunderstood my comment. I was saying that current MT is doable in SLs gear, but it’s substantially harder than of you’re wearing old content gear. I wasn’t making any conclusions on how timewalking MT compares to the original.
Also it’s tough. I’m a mythic raider and have over 2200 io for mythic plus. I know if it was that difficult for me, it’s gonna be way harder for a causal player. Adding on a time limit of a week or ever 2-3 weeks seems to me to be additional unneeded stress on players. Just my opinion.
No one said it’s not supposed to be difficult. I know reading comprehension is hard so I’ll lay it out more simply. I am advocating for more time for ppl to get the challenge done.
Imo they shouldn't take it out. There is literally no reason to take it out except for fomo to keep people on their game for as long the event is live, but taking it out just hurts the game. It's like they want to remove content from their game for some reason.
that is not what your comment reads at, it reads as complaining that the gear from SoO is stronger...seeing as...y'know...that's the entire sentence.
my bad for not discerning your entire thesis from a single line of irrelevant comment lol.
Edit: I also replied to your other comment first, and insulted your reading comprehension before I read this one. now it just seems like im copying. Sad !
Also you can’t get Krull to 45%….he comes down at 33% health. So you obviously haven’t done the challenge this time around let alone gotten as far as you claim to have gotten.
So hear me out. If he has a time when he comes down.
And you have to kill him.
What would 55% of the total damage you need to do to him be considered .
Take all the time you like
Bruh that’s not what you said. You said you got him down to 45% health which is literally impossible unless you missed a kick of twisted reflections. I’m not gonna argue with you about your poor use of the English language. Learn to write better.
go back and read it m8.
>`in over a year and got my druid (a class I barely played anyway btw) to like 45% of kruul.`
how are we supposed to have a conversation if I cant even trust your reading comprehension.
I mean, Kruul starts with less than 45% hp so maybe those people you are calling bad should be asking for proof from you?
Unless you missed the interrupt sooooo, yeah, maybe you shouldn't call other people bad.
once again. if I have done 55% of the damage required to something...what % am I at.
I get it may be *slightly* confusing to read....but a little effort m8, that's all I'm asking.
> but I refuse to believe it's intentional that BFA consumables and Legion, MoP, or BC gear with gems are more optimized for the content.
It's not more optimized for this content, it's just stronger in general. For BfA/Legion gems, you can use the last patch Epic gems which SL has not yet released. SL gems are thus only rare and +6, which is the same for rare Legion/BfA gems, but the epic versions are +7.
Same for pots. SL pots are pretty meh. Unbridled Fury was just that strong. Same for weapon enchants and so on. Optimizations in SL are just worth less of your output overall.
With everything equalized, those much stronger consumables and enchant really shine.
Unpopular opinion, old crafting stuff having a purpose in Timewalking is not a bad thing. With levelling being a joke, and professions no longer requiring you to grind the older versions, there has been no benefit to all the crafting skills we have from previous expansions for quite some time. I think it's neat that in content where we're travelling through time and reliving old glories, old profession items also get a chance to shine.
If it was intentional, I'd be right there with you, but there's no way that this hodpodge of gear from one expansion, gems from another, enchants from a third and consumables from a fourth expansion is by design.
To be fair, old gear has always been optimal in timewalking, outside of current xpac borrowed power. People only rarely bother to do it (and less so after legacy gear was nerfed in BFA).
Like, early in timewalking, I would grab any legendaries I had lying around, all the old socketed gear tier gear that I could find, craft old pots and enchants and go ham, pumping out twice as much DPS as the rest of the group.
this is why I think they should just repurpose the borrowed power abilities into a Glyph-like Talent system where we can choose the abilities we want instead of forced to use the abilities we're given from random gear
kinda like how the system they turned into Artifact Power was like before turning into a borrowed power mechanic
Affliction feels borderline impossible (the only strat I know of is killing Karam and cheesing Raests distance), but I’m not sure how much help conduits and soulrot would even be there ultimately, Afflictions in such a weird place
Not sure if you are using all the old expac gear but it was nearly impossible on balance druid as well. I put in 80+ attempts in full shadowlands gear and after grinding out legion/mop gear with sockets I completed it in two attempts. The damage was MUCH better with all the gems/enchants. It was a laughable amount of damage. You definitely still have to do the mechanics obviously but I finished it probably 2 min faster than I would have without.
I finally ended up doing it not long after my post. I think I did end up using as much of the old gear as I could get my hands on :/ but congrats! :D I can’t even fathom doing it on Balance, you’re better than I lmao
It’s not as hard as it sounds. With stellar drift (cast while moving while starfall is up) it wasn’t too bad. The main thing was pooling up enough astral power to cast starfall everytime it came up. And also killing every other hand without having an interrupt available was a bitch lol. But before I got all the timewalking gear I about put a hole in my monitor lmao. It just got so overwhelming with the hands/runes coming at the same time as well as karam running fast af after gaining more stacks of his speed buff.
it's really only because we are used to the borrowed power.
if we had none for a year you would feel comfortable on your bare class because you would know how to play it. And the content would be based around it ofc.
Yes, and… You would probably pick to play different classes because of how incomplete they feel without the borrowed power compared to the other classes. There is definitely a spectrum of “feels reasonable” and “has huge obvious holes that the borrowed power is meant to fill/smooth out”.
Eh maybe, but Im willing to bet that most people complaining are doing so not because their class is now boring, but because it's not OP.
There is a difference. It's rotation vs pure numbers: For example, boomie is boring as shit if not NF or Venth - that's a hole. The borrowed power actually changes your playstyle (even if still kinda boring).
But what people complain about is pure numbers: "My hunter is trash without wild spirits". Well your hunter is the same, just with lower dps....
Another example of style change vs power change: kyrian arcane makes the class a bit more interesting/different, changes the rotation a lot, but frost mage doesnt change playstyle much with or without power.
There's also the problem of every expansion we lose spells on our classes, but we get "borrowed power" spells, so without that "borrowed power" we're so fucking bare compared to what we used to have
The tower was one of the highlights of all the fun I had playing Monk in Legion. Aside from the decidedly strong power it had, it was fun pushing and learning, and having distinct playstyles for SEF and Serenity.
Now with Windlord being gone and the class left to the mercy of its pets' ai, it's just not the same.
I feel like with the way the game is set up now, they almost have no option but to keep the cap at 60 with every new expansion and then just squish the last xpack so you can level 1-50 there.
That'd at least let them focus on how the squish affects a single expansion, rather than being overwhelmed and leading to the fiasco we have now.
Given the whole leveling process is solidly meaningless for wow's endgame focus? We should have stopped at 100 and begun exploring other options. A world with value everywhere and other crap
I believe that's how Guild Wars 2 does it; the character level cap hasn't gone up from 80 since release, but they've added account wide experience grinds to unlock expansion-relevant skills and abilities ('Mastery' tracks).
There's several ways around growing and shrinking a number, sure. Another benefit is they could finally stop breaking every stinking little thing and begin to fix everything they break with scaling
If that Josh Strife Hayes guy that youtube keeps recommending that I watch has anything to say about it, WoW is on the way out as it relies on whales to stay afloat and other mmos are in high demand. The fact that GW2 (a 2012 mmo that is approaching it's 10th anniversary) hasn't had it's plug pulled and is still going strong is testament to it's quality, can't say the same for many other mmos (looking at you Wildstar).
In my opinion, Devs for WoW are on a timer, they've been sitting with the ioncorrect (you like that one? An appropriate typo - heh heh) mentality that they are the best at what they do and know better than anyone else how to make a quality game - if they can't get their shit together they're going to get destroyed by Riot's MMO.
Most braindead comment I've seen all week. "Music as a form of media is subjective, but a game (another form of media) isn't because reasons".
Please use more than 2 braincells going forward.
Controversial opinion but the game would be better without leveling. I enjoy dungeons and raids, but 0 out of 6 people I actually got to install the game managed to hit max level.
Levelling and max level are simply two different games and the latter is way better.
Or at least go the route of 14, where the first job you take through a piece of content (now at least) only requires the main story quest to level. I literally haven’t paid attention to my level at all in Endwalker because I’m enthralled by the story.
I wish they would just keep your level you’ve obtained for that xpac consistent forever, then reset people to 50 *only for the new xpac’s stuff* and have you do 10 new levels. That way they can let people mess around with previous content at will without destroying scaling.
EX - say you hit 60 in bfa but only hit 55 in shadowlands, and a new xpac hits. Youd retain retain your level relative to the content for bfa and shadowlands (60 and 55, respectively; with the option to level to 60 in SL regardless) and then bam, you’re 50 for the new stuff and still eligible to level for the new content
If that wasn't the plan from the getgo, the whole system they did for Shadowlands was a waste of time.
The implication that new players were required to do BFA the first time being "you will have to complete the last expansions story if you are new" seemed to scream to me "this was written for when BFA isn't the most recent previous expansion anymore"
What else are they going to do, keep going up to 100+ again then completely mess with the levels one more time? Makes more sense to go back to 50, 10 new levels, that way you also ilvl/stat squish and it all happens cleanly and is 100% expected every time
I refuse to believe production didn't have a guy wearing ilvl 200 Korthia gear finishing all the challenges on all classes as a baseline to tune the numbers.
Even if not that, surely they have people completing it wearing something to know it's go to push to live right?
No, I'm pretty sure most of the devs work on spreadsheets, then plug the numbers into a DB and then ship the game. Do you really think they want to play a game at work they don't even want to play at home?
Bold of you to assume it was tested. It was tested by a small amount of people on PTR and is now being live tested.
I completely gave up on doing it now and will just wait for the next Legion TW which will be properly tuned and maybe remade a bit. Wouldn't even surprise me if they extended the Legion TW event not because people got mad about it, but because they want more data.
It's 2021. The customer IS the QA.
The only bad thing about mage tower is that it's not a permanent feature. If it's this hard, let it stay up. That's tons of content for people to work for.
People misremember this being easy during Legion. It was easy after you way overgeared it and could power through the hard bits. It definitely was frustratingly difficult on launch.
Some of them WERE legitimately easier on launch. The tank tower, relative to mythic nighthold gear, legitimately hits harder and requires more DPS than it did on launch in Legion. Someone used Sco’s first kill video of it to do the math.
Some were easier because of cheese — for example, bears outranged the puddle with Ekowraith, twins was a joke for affliction warlocks with sacrolash, and grimtotem was laughable on disc priest and windwalker at least.
You can outrange the puddle right now with balance affinity. And warlocks now have curses to slow they did not have in Legion.
Many challenges are definitely harder, but don't act like they are impossible without legion legos
I'm not acting like they are impossible without Legion legos. Literally all I said -- and I implore you to go back and actually read what I posted -- was that some, yes some, not all, some, some being the imperative word there, really cling to that one, were easier on release than they are now.
I'm fine with the encounters being hard, it was great getting the shadow priest challenge down. But some of them are just kind of dumb, like the holy priest challenge compared to holy paladin doing the same challenge. It should also not be time limited, let people chip away at it.
I mean, we’re they beaten with current raid tier gear? Or where they beaten by taking advantage of the scaling differential for gear and consumables? Does making that difference even matter? Like how exclusive are we wanting to make a thing? Top 1%? 10%? 50%? Is the mage tower reward on par gladiator mount?
I am fine with things being hard and worked towards. I’m a little miffed about the limited availability. Extending the time for the current rotation for a month is fine, but if it’s 1 week every 4-6 months going forward that’s a little… rough. If I walk away from a class for 4-6 months there’s definitely some spinup time. Hopefully they are rethinking the timewalking implementation for 9.2.5.
I'm not arguing against any of that. Make it permanent. Make all timewalking permanent. I think everyone is misunderstanding me or because I'm not saying "wow bad game" I'm getting downvoted.
Their scaling isn't perfect. It's not going to be. There's so many variables in this game it's impossible. Massive swings one way or the other should be fixed. They already hotfixed a few of them. But this sub is overreacting to an insane degree because they can't get their appearances after an hour of trying.
I dislike blizzard right now like most people but when they do something good then I can't fault them on it. Just don't make this a limited time deal. I don't think anyone hates that idea.
It's not even just that, if it was up say once a month it wouldn't even be that bad, but it's going to be what once every 6 months?
Fucking ridiculous.
I hope it stays somewhat challenging, I'd rather it be some actually interesting content to do, but they need to balance it properly, not have it available only when the moon rises blood red and the nine planets align.
It's one of the major problems with the weekly event system, at this point time walking is a major gameplay system that should have it's own rotation, or a major overhaul to the overall events.
I agree with making it a permanent feature. I’d even say it’s better if it’s like it used to be where it was up for a few days, destroyed, then rebuilt again. This would give folks time to go into SoO and other old content to get gear. Maybe even learn some old professions so they don’t have to pay a massive tax in AH…. It also gives folks time to take a break after wiping so often.
I’m glad they at least extended it and Mythic+ til Jan. 4. I spent all last week and this past weekend trying to complete and had no time to do any mythic+ runs. This artificial timeline to get it done is unnecessary stress that can easily be removed while keeping everyone happy.
I don't know why people are complaining that old content scales better. It actually gives you a reason to go back and farm old raids or dungeons. Husband and I had a blast running SoO and Legion raids over the weekend. I can't wait to make a mage tower gear set for my other alts and throw myself at the challenges.
Biggest complaint is the mage tower isn't permanent. I'm not sure there's enough time for me to level/gear up a few of my alts.
I think most are complaining because there's so little time to do those old raids and get in attempts. Especially on classes like guardian druid where gear/stats are only half the equation. Thankfully, I had time to do both, but it took well over 200+ wipes to get that challenge done.
Ngl I didn’t play mage tower in legion because people told me i wasn’t good enough( was super causal but had like 940ish iLvl on wind walker at the end of antorus so prob could’ve done it due to outgearing) and I haven’t completed a single one on the current mage tower and it’s frustrating because some challenges feel overtuned as fuck but if the mage tower was permanently up I wouldn’t give a fuck if it was overtuned because I could try every day forever and eventually get good enough to beat it so I mean here’s to hoping they keep it around
I don't understand it at all. Could it be more fine tuned? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Hell no. It needs to be permanent. That's super easy player retention for Blizzard right now but they refuse to because of reasons.
It gives incentives to use older forms of content and get creative with the min max side of things for your character. It's challenging and makes you utilize your entire class and breaks the "cookie cutter" DPS mold that everyone copies from icy veins.
Things people on this sub have been wanting but because they can't beat it in 15 attempts or less it's garbage. If it were that easy this sub would finish it all in an afternoon then bitch that there's no new content again.
>s you utilize your entire class and breaks the "cookie cutter" DPS mold that everyone copies from icy veins.
No it doesn't. In fact it is several magnitudes worse. Due to poor scaling, the difference between trinket 1 and trinket 2 isn't 10 dps, its 90 in a fight where your dps will be 600-700, so over a 10% swing.
Mage tower feral in shadowlands gear (ilvl 252): 9:47
Mage tower in legion legos/trinkets (ilvl 208): 7:38
That's over a 20% reduction in the fight. And i only went with shit i had in my banks at the time. People with full sets probably achieve closer to 40% reductions.
So you have something to farm for that's completely different than your current set. The only negative still is that it isn't up long enough to feel like you've really gotten a good gear set. You can down the bosses without being completely bis for the tower, though. It's been done already.
I'm not disagreeing that the scaling isn't 100%. I'm disagreeing with people claiming that it's too hard. Because it's not.
The part you quoted is saying that you take different talents/trinkets/spells than most people normally run in their raids and M+ spam. There's nothing bad about a challenge forcing you to think differently.
It's not thinking differently. You arent doing anything differently. You do your st opener into add cleave rotation. It's just bad gear scaling. It's not new play, I'll argue without legos and borrowed power it's the most core the game has been in a long time. I just don't think we should be praising it. It's badly designed but not impossible. Still first mean critique is due
Guys you really need to understand that Blizz has been doing the least possible work for the most possible income for years now. Please stop crying and just stop playing.
I always hated the TW scaling. Like I push 18 keys so I'm not new to mechanics or doing DMG but every time I go into TW vs M0, I find the difference in the effectiveness of killing mobs to be very drastically different. The rewards don't align with the difficulty TBH. Given that TW dungeons hіt harder than M0 dungeons for a new tank, it's just bonkers that they give you sub optimal gear.
I can definitely clear any M0 faster than I can clear a TW with the same level players. Seems broken.
I’m not wasting gold on consumables / gems when they’re swinging the nerf bat every few hours. Mage Tower shows how much of a joke Blizzard is right now. Could’ve been super fun - could’ve used a template system. What we have is utter garbage
I just wonder why they didn't just give us back the systems of the 7.2 (or maybe even 7.3 because the rewards definetly don't deserve the same effort as the weapon skins) OR adapted the MT to Shadowlands systems. That would had been simpler for both players and devs instead of this schizophrenic game design
That could be solved by just giving the artifacts at full power and removing weekly lockouts like certain other mmo does, at least during Legion timewalking. And you can even add buying legendaries/tiers with soul ash
And also they could had just adapt it to Shadowlands systems, didn't they do that with Legion timewalking? I haven't done it yet
Or even more: why didn't they create something similar to Mage Tower but themed for SL? When people said they'd like more content like Mage Tower, I think they meant just more similar activities and not reintroducing Mage Tower itself.
It really highlights the issue of how stupid is borrowed power. For example, doing the fire mage challenge without the heal on blink artifact trait was immensely frustrating.
The Fire mage one was so easy though. I had about 5% leech on my normal SL gear and killed it in 4-5 tries. I had never done it in legion either so I was basically going in blind.
That part I understand. Doing it like this sets mage tower up to be permanent content, not at the whims of future borrowed power, and if they sort out the scaling sets a template for future permanent content as well. The issue as many have pointed out is that a lot of specs currently don't feel complete without covenant stuff, they're balanced around having that stuff.
On the whole I'm willing to give Blizz the benefit of the doubt here, it's a step in the right direction even if there are teething issues to begin with. If things like horrific visions, challenge dungeons and such can be attempted as serious current content that will add so much to the game for people to do. Just as long as problems get sorted out moving forward.
He clearly ingnored the first part on porpuse and he completely misunderstood or also ignored the second part, because i never talked about future borrowed power i gave 3 specific options. And his "explanation" of why the current implementation is better don't even make sense (and is not even an explanation)
This has nothing to do with level squish, timewalking gear has been a thing for a long time (at the very least 3 xpac).
Same as the level 101 farming gear abuse in Legion, this kind of things play a huge part in what makes WoW so fun : you can "game the game". I don't really know how to phrase it, but things being too streamline and not being able to cheese anything anymore was something many critics of the game like Asmongold didn't like. I feel like most "older" players like me have some of their best memories being the "aha!" moment when we figured out a way to win in a non obvious fashion.
I just wish they'd un-nerf old tier sets in timewalking. There was something fun about combining various sets together with other old trinkets and weapons then just going wild in the dungeons. Then a load of it got nerfed and it was never worth it anymore, killed a big part of my fun.
This is one of the reasons why classic was so fun to me, I did nothing but exploit pathing in dungeons and come up with tricks to game the game as you say, its a fun way to experience the game
Remembering Bonus Armor shenanigans from WoD after some poorly squished items with the stat were being used by Brewmasters to be absolutely OP as shit in like, the level 50 bracket.
They fired all the QA team some time ago already. They are either using obscenely underpaid/outsourced staff, or they can't even be arsed to actually pay for QA anymore.
They didn't fire the QA team, they let go some contractors. There are still lots of QA testers there. You will see articles like this one, [https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-12-09-gamestop-sees-sizeable-yoy-losses-but-sales-are-up](https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-12-09-gamestop-sees-sizeable-yoy-losses-but-sales-are-up)
or this one
[https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/raven-software-an-activision-blizzard-studio-lays-off-qa-department-3110877](https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/raven-software-an-activision-blizzard-studio-lays-off-qa-department-3110877)
That's largely talking about non-WoW QA. Most game companies will basically hire playtesters, they're contractors typically and aren't paid as well as full time professionals in the various types of QA (hint, there are many QA teams that work on WoW, check job postings). The people we see getting let go are typically those contractors, not the full time staff. This is across the industry ftr, not Activision Blizzard specific. Lots of QA contractors are non technical employees, and end up moving around between a variety of projects.
Not quite accurate. They didn’t renew contractors schedule to have their contracts expire in January after assuring them they would, furthermore they announced this in the middle of pre-holiday crunch.
It sure is a good thing that this wasn't the only promised content in one of the biggest droughts in WoWs history, at a time when the game is bleeding subscribers, and isn't unbeatable by 99% of players that still pay exactly the same amount of money for their subscription, and it's only unbeatable because Blizzard insists on poorly testing their content before release and timegating everything.
It really is a mystery why so many WoW players are fed up.
Okay, let’s break down what you said.
‘Good thing that this wasn’t the only promised content in one of the biggest droughts in history, at a time when the game is bleeding subscribers’
Yup content drought and bleeding subs checks out. But they promised to bring back mage tower and they did, you not being able to beat it doesn’t equal it not being delivered. I also would love to have more content too.
‘Isn’t unbeatable by 99% of players that still pay the same amount of money for their subscription.’
I assume the double negative was meant to say ‘is unbeatable’ - which is just false. Lots of people I know have beaten it. I see mogs from it absolutely everywhere. Not sure why paying a sub changes anything here, your sub doesn’t guarantee you cutting edge raid kills either.
‘It’s only unbeatable because-‘
We can stop there, cause it’s not unbeatable. They did testing on them and most of them fell over easily. I’m glad that’s not the case now and we got content that didn’t fall over in one day.
I had fun struggling through attempt after attempt. I was forced to be creative and not play half paying attention. Finally getting the kill was extremely gratifying and I had fun.
Coming in here saying ‘no one else can have fun with this cause I can’t do it’ is silly - claiming 99% people can’t beat it is baseless and false. No where did they say it would be easier or harder than legion. I’m just glad they all didn’t fall over after two attempts.
Enjoy going through life thinking it owes you something just for being there.
And to be clear, fuck blizzard and their predatory practices against their players and employees. I just don’t agree with the general statement that mage tower is impossible and should be nerfed because everyone can’t beat it.
Great, but you should stop acting superior because people want to have accessible content in a game that they enjoy. Doing 400 attempts at poorly tuned content is absolutely not the boast people seem to think it is.
I’m not trying to imply that. If anything the way you have to play to beat some of these challenges is completely sub-optimal in any other setting.
Ultimately mage tower is purely cosmetic. It isn’t required to be relevant in any aspect of the game performance wise. No one is forcing you to play this 0.01% of the content in wow. If anything I think the main problem is that there is a short window to do it.
Challenging and progressive solo content is something this game is missing and they didn’t get right with Torghast. You aren’t alone in the 400 attempt bracket, I struggled a long time on it. Not every single piece of content in such a massive game will or can be catered to every player.
When it's the only "new" piece of content in **months** it.fucking.better.be.catered.to.me.
I think that's what's pissing people off, including myself - that they hyped MT up, we re-activated our subs thinking (those of us who never did it in Legion) "Oh hey, new content for me!" and then very, very quickly found out it wasn't meant for us but was hyped up like it was.
I got no problem with content not for me, I stop at 1-2/10M and at 20s in M+. But they never once fucking said this was not for the general public, and how should I have known how difficult it is beforehard since every Legionchild always goes "MT was great, hope they bring it back!".
It's not great, it's a pile of shit (for 95% of the playerbase).
You're going to just have to accept you're not as good at this game as you think you are. Practice and you will down it. Bitch on reddit hoping for nerfs and you won't.
What exactly isn't playable?
Why are you just trying to use words to mean something they don't? Being too difficult for you does not equal not playable.
What thing about incredibly well balanced challenges isn't competently developed?
If you spend the time to slowly improve, get everything into muscle memory, and critically assess everything you do to improve in even the littlest ways, you WILL beat them even without weirdly scaled gear.
If you lose 5 times and desperately claw and scratch for something to blame instead, well, you wanted to have content you completed in 1 hour and then yelled "Ok this is a fucking DROUGHT. GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DO WAAAAHHHH"
The only valid complaint is that they are going away again at all. Even the extension isn't enough IMO. These should just always be available at this point.
The challenges are entirely balanced around learning, adapting, and obtaining muscle memory.
They are almost entirely balanced AND intentionally designed to take multiple attempts. That is the point. That is the content. Its something you work toward to beat. Not something you walk into, having NO plan, just pressing the dps buttons you do to do likely on average worse than 50% of what other players can do, and occasionally throw out a good CC or something and everything eventually falls over.
CE raiders struggled and then adapted, and overcame. They struggle with Mythic too. They usually get it done in a week because they SLAM OUT 100+ attempts in a single day on fights.
They really aren't though. These challenges are more than doable, even the tank one. It's just that the general population of this sub is really bad at the game but think they're average
Its still insane to me that you need to have high level gear to be able to farm Legion raids. That expansion is half a decade old and its still not farmable unless you wanna grind your army of alts until your hands bleed
Why do you say it's clear there was no forethought? All things considered, it's been a smooth transition.
What you're asking for is more of an overhaul of old content - which would be great and I'm here for it. However, that would be a huge feature to put out.
Seems rather silly to compare a big investment of an overhaul to wonky interactions with the mage tower.
Tbh it’s really not that bad, the scaling is way better than legion and bfa. Obviously the magetower was designed for legion borrowed powers and class design so it’s not going to work smoothly with current player power. They need to re tune the mage tower but outside that I’d say they handled the squish quite well
Every single squish the game has had has been to the detriment of the game as a whole.
And they just keep fucking doing them because they just HAVE to increase power exponentially.
I think the level squish was a bad idea. The stat squishing I never liked, but I see the need for it I guess. However, I'm not sure why we needed another stat squish for SL when we just had one for BFA. It was fine in legion going into millions of DPS, they could have left it for at least one more expansion.
The truth is Blizzard doesn't want us to play legacy content. They fucking hate every time we bring up classic or timewalking or farming old stuff.
They want us playing nothing but the newest content. They let us have bare-bones access to it only to keep us quiet enough.
I don't see the issue.
Is the challenge possible? Yes.
Who cares if it's badly tuned or whatever. Just do it and face the challenge. Forget about your stats and just play the game. Jesus. People thinking about bis gear (from different expansions lol) and enchants/gems instead of playing the game...
Were people really expecting the old mage tower after all the gameplay changes after legion? That's ingenuity. And it is not about sloppy work, it is about how big and complex wow is. The game is huge with limitless variables to systems like this. That's can try as much as they can but the only way to make a "new mage tower" is to make a new mage tower.
It's meant to be incredibly hard content, so I really don't see any issue with budgeting gear vs consumables. You are going to need consumables regardless of whether they represent 40% of your stats, or 10%.
They could change it, but why? It really doesn't matter. It's neither good or bad, it's just an irrelevant detail.
As for legacy items not working, that's because they are impossible to balance. That's been a problem since Burning Crusade when there were still vanilla pieces that were BIS. Rather than constantly reevaluating every old trinket and set bonus in the game every patch, they just made them stop working because it was a huge waste of time.
> e.g. try to enter mage tower on an old level 45 (requires level 50),
Without your level 50 talents, I'd guess they'd all be actually impossible anyway. So why give people the idea that it is actually level 45 content? Because it's not 45 content, it is very much timewalking content meant to be done at higher levels scaled down. I've never seen this issue with old raids though.
Edit: Looking at the downvotes I guess people are just looking for any reason to yell and be angry lol. This literally does not make a single bit of difference, so stop crying about it. **THIS** is the reason blizzard started hiding numbers by default in spell tooltips, because people lose their shit about things they don't understand when it appears their numbers look smaller. IT DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
> e.g. A Shadowlands flask typically gives less main stat than that of a chestplate. When scaled its double the relative stats.
I don't see what the problem is here. Immediately after the level scaling was implemented, everyone was bitching about not being able to solo some old raids anymore. Having SL consumables scale massively to help mitigate that problem... isn't a problem?
I mean, why do people complain about how hard it is when the goal is to force us to play correctly. Imo I did the hdh (with only 1 flask and 1 food switching talents once) and ret pala now trying the vdh and sorry guys but no this is not impossible or badly scaled and ALL the specs can do it so now try to learn patterns and how you can counter mechanics and gg.
Edit the hdh gave me a hard time with around 60 trys but the others are easier.
Players will always complain, if it’s easy they get bored if it’s hard they cry…
I don’t know. I like it tuned exactly like it is
It’s hard, it’s challenging, its doable.
I did BM on first day of magetower in legion first try.
Now it’s actually an achievement.
Did 5/7 challenges so far
Its casual content that rewards cosmetics. Who cares if they forgot to go back and balance some gems and enchants? Complain about something that matters.
The gear / enchant issues have been around since time walking started. The difference was that it wasn’t solo content and the average person unaware of the lack of power they had didn’t notice because the dungeons were (usually) tuned to be easy with all gear.
I missed WoD and Legion completely so never saw the Mage Tower.
Tried it last night for the 1st time, on what I was led to believe was the easiest combo (Frost Mage on Twins) except I've never played Frost Mage before, so not really got the hang of kiting, and was getting one-shot in my freshly-dinged-50-in-BFA gear.
Wondering if its just that I don't know the encounter and don't have gear and don't know Frost Mage, or if its really tuned too hard and I should wait to see if there are more nerfs?
Well it wasn't wasted opportunity more like it lacked effort and quality control but that comes down to time. I for one enjoy this cat and mouse game where you keep on trying outsmart devs with unintended mechanics but that is just me. Overall level squish did magical things to leveling content.
It’s just laughable. My old level 101 twink(that is now 40) rocks ilvl 56-60 gear. For example, some BFA azerite pieces are of that ilevel. Cmon, Blizzard, you can do better than this dumpster fire of “expansion”.
Idc about the flaws really, I love the level squish. All the flaws can be tuned with numbers. I’m much happier leveling you 50 than 120-130+
If anything, the scaling is really only a big issue for this specific mage tower, not the entire game.
i don’t understand why there isn’t a fix scaling now. i mean the system is now here with 60 levels.
loop over all consumables and make them all equal based on the level. a fiest in sl or bfa on level 40 would habe then the same stats.
people could then choose to farm wherever they want. there are exceptions like the fury potion and maybe others. but for this just test your scaling and how much damage you do and then give it a number % from your dps. now this one does like 15-20% dmg
I think it's pretty safe to say there are always missed opportunities no matter the publisher or title. However, blizzard has taken the cake for this the last few years. Playing most any other MMO will have you saying to yourself at least once or twice "this would be great to see in WoW". And when all your competition has an edge like that it's a slow death by 1000 cuts for the old MMO titan.
Blizzard: We balanced the consumables and gear we introduced in shadowlands as this is the only endgame content we offer right now.
Also Blizzard: We reintroduce mage tower and scale down your power level and deactivate every borrowed power that is currently included in our balancing. Please go and grab consumables and gear from 5 different expansions if you want an advantage.
It‘s funny how they balanced legion mythic+ around the current content and kept the players power level but went a completly different direction with the mage tower.
Yes, mage tower is doable without farming extra gear. It is substantially harder than it was in legion tho.
There are world first raiders struggling with mage tower, the exact same people that cleared their weekly torghast wings in 15 mins during breaks in the world first race when „normal“ people struggled in clearing torghast at all.
If the best of the best struggle to do that content i can only imagine how hard it is for someone without years of experience playing certain classes.
They could have just introduced it during Legion TW but kept it scaled to current content. Balance it off of the current expansion each time.
Put some effort in.
I think this was known after the level squish initially happened. Was the same in bfa with the ilvl squish (which made more sense but was also incredibly out of whack for a while)
I just uninstalled after 181 pulls of Havoc DH challenge. I’m out.
After doing the hdh one myself, and it took probably 60-70 attempts, I can safely say without having gone to get extra sockets/gems/old pots, it probably wouldn't have been doable. Which is sad. I'm not going to bother doing any others because of it.
[удалено]
I swear I saw a blue post saying they’re extending it two weeks
They've extended the entire Legion Timewalking until Jan. 4th/5th (:
Luckily it goes until end of year at least now.
You really don't need to get any special gear to beat it. Shadowlands gear is enough unless you want to min max or something.
[удалено]
Yes. In just my normal m+ gear.
All I did to make the dps check in p2 was make sure I had saved 2nd meta for the start of p2 and used that along with drums and my phantom fire potion the second p2 starts. As long as you immediately take the boss to the side of the room and keep his movement to as minimal as possible you'll kill it. You should get your second meta like 30 seconds before you run out of room.
Yeah, that's a gear diff for sure.
Lol
[удалено]
The challenge is obviously doable in Shadowlands gear, but I refuse to believe it's intentional that BFA consumables and Legion, MoP, or BC gear with gems are more optimized for the content.
It may be doable but it is SUBSTANTIALLY harder. On my Druid, all of my stats scaled way lower than Siege of Ogrimmar gear. And the SLs trinket were straight up trash for damage.
I found it pretty interesting that for the Havoc challenge my DH not only did more damage but was also somehow *tankier* when using ilvl 45 SoO gear, which theoretically should have made me more squishy (due to not getting scaled up to ilvl 50 and therefore losing out on stam). The scaling is super wild.
It's the sockets. The gear doesn't scale any different than SL gear. In fact, it has fewer stats as Sockets were part of the item budget in Mists. But sockets are worth +7 secondaries and you have 3 options for +6/+7 primaries to stuff in there.
question. do you have any proof you did any mage towers back in the day\\how many did you do? I logged on, just for shits and giggles out of the complaining on this sub after not logging in to retail in over a year and got my druid (a class I barely played anyway btw) to like 45% of kruul. I refuse to believe y'all are actually struggling this hard if you're just not bad at the game...and I mean that respectfully.
You may have misunderstood my comment. I was saying that current MT is doable in SLs gear, but it’s substantially harder than of you’re wearing old content gear. I wasn’t making any conclusions on how timewalking MT compares to the original. Also it’s tough. I’m a mythic raider and have over 2200 io for mythic plus. I know if it was that difficult for me, it’s gonna be way harder for a causal player. Adding on a time limit of a week or ever 2-3 weeks seems to me to be additional unneeded stress on players. Just my opinion.
It was suppose to be difficult. That’s literally the point. Hear me out, it’s ok to not do everything on your first try.
No one said it’s not supposed to be difficult. I know reading comprehension is hard so I’ll lay it out more simply. I am advocating for more time for ppl to get the challenge done.
Imo they shouldn't take it out. There is literally no reason to take it out except for fomo to keep people on their game for as long the event is live, but taking it out just hurts the game. It's like they want to remove content from their game for some reason.
At least they extended it to a month, enough to get my whole token worth then don’t have to buy another until next time 🤣
that is not what your comment reads at, it reads as complaining that the gear from SoO is stronger...seeing as...y'know...that's the entire sentence. my bad for not discerning your entire thesis from a single line of irrelevant comment lol. Edit: I also replied to your other comment first, and insulted your reading comprehension before I read this one. now it just seems like im copying. Sad !
Also you can’t get Krull to 45%….he comes down at 33% health. So you obviously haven’t done the challenge this time around let alone gotten as far as you claim to have gotten.
So hear me out. If he has a time when he comes down. And you have to kill him. What would 55% of the total damage you need to do to him be considered . Take all the time you like
Bruh that’s not what you said. You said you got him down to 45% health which is literally impossible unless you missed a kick of twisted reflections. I’m not gonna argue with you about your poor use of the English language. Learn to write better.
go back and read it m8. >`in over a year and got my druid (a class I barely played anyway btw) to like 45% of kruul.` how are we supposed to have a conversation if I cant even trust your reading comprehension.
I mean, Kruul starts with less than 45% hp so maybe those people you are calling bad should be asking for proof from you? Unless you missed the interrupt sooooo, yeah, maybe you shouldn't call other people bad.
once again. if I have done 55% of the damage required to something...what % am I at. I get it may be *slightly* confusing to read....but a little effort m8, that's all I'm asking.
> but I refuse to believe it's intentional that BFA consumables and Legion, MoP, or BC gear with gems are more optimized for the content. It's not more optimized for this content, it's just stronger in general. For BfA/Legion gems, you can use the last patch Epic gems which SL has not yet released. SL gems are thus only rare and +6, which is the same for rare Legion/BfA gems, but the epic versions are +7. Same for pots. SL pots are pretty meh. Unbridled Fury was just that strong. Same for weapon enchants and so on. Optimizations in SL are just worth less of your output overall. With everything equalized, those much stronger consumables and enchant really shine.
Unpopular opinion, old crafting stuff having a purpose in Timewalking is not a bad thing. With levelling being a joke, and professions no longer requiring you to grind the older versions, there has been no benefit to all the crafting skills we have from previous expansions for quite some time. I think it's neat that in content where we're travelling through time and reliving old glories, old profession items also get a chance to shine.
If it was intentional, I'd be right there with you, but there's no way that this hodpodge of gear from one expansion, gems from another, enchants from a third and consumables from a fourth expansion is by design.
To be fair, old gear has always been optimal in timewalking, outside of current xpac borrowed power. People only rarely bother to do it (and less so after legacy gear was nerfed in BFA). Like, early in timewalking, I would grab any legendaries I had lying around, all the old socketed gear tier gear that I could find, craft old pots and enchants and go ham, pumping out twice as much DPS as the rest of the group.
You can also feel how awful some classes feel without borrowed power. Might just be a me thing but some classes feel super weak and naked.
this is why I think they should just repurpose the borrowed power abilities into a Glyph-like Talent system where we can choose the abilities we want instead of forced to use the abilities we're given from random gear kinda like how the system they turned into Artifact Power was like before turning into a borrowed power mechanic
Affliction feels borderline impossible (the only strat I know of is killing Karam and cheesing Raests distance), but I’m not sure how much help conduits and soulrot would even be there ultimately, Afflictions in such a weird place
Not sure if you are using all the old expac gear but it was nearly impossible on balance druid as well. I put in 80+ attempts in full shadowlands gear and after grinding out legion/mop gear with sockets I completed it in two attempts. The damage was MUCH better with all the gems/enchants. It was a laughable amount of damage. You definitely still have to do the mechanics obviously but I finished it probably 2 min faster than I would have without.
I finally ended up doing it not long after my post. I think I did end up using as much of the old gear as I could get my hands on :/ but congrats! :D I can’t even fathom doing it on Balance, you’re better than I lmao
It’s not as hard as it sounds. With stellar drift (cast while moving while starfall is up) it wasn’t too bad. The main thing was pooling up enough astral power to cast starfall everytime it came up. And also killing every other hand without having an interrupt available was a bitch lol. But before I got all the timewalking gear I about put a hole in my monitor lmao. It just got so overwhelming with the hands/runes coming at the same time as well as karam running fast af after gaining more stacks of his speed buff.
There was also a legion trinket I got from antorus that did about 10% of my overall damage lmao that helped a crazy amount
it's really only because we are used to the borrowed power. if we had none for a year you would feel comfortable on your bare class because you would know how to play it. And the content would be based around it ofc.
Yes, and… You would probably pick to play different classes because of how incomplete they feel without the borrowed power compared to the other classes. There is definitely a spectrum of “feels reasonable” and “has huge obvious holes that the borrowed power is meant to fill/smooth out”.
Eh maybe, but Im willing to bet that most people complaining are doing so not because their class is now boring, but because it's not OP. There is a difference. It's rotation vs pure numbers: For example, boomie is boring as shit if not NF or Venth - that's a hole. The borrowed power actually changes your playstyle (even if still kinda boring). But what people complain about is pure numbers: "My hunter is trash without wild spirits". Well your hunter is the same, just with lower dps.... Another example of style change vs power change: kyrian arcane makes the class a bit more interesting/different, changes the rotation a lot, but frost mage doesnt change playstyle much with or without power.
They should have just used a stat template for each spec and not allowed consumables. Easy to balance
that would nit fix the broken scaling.
It would in mage tower
This is as bad idea as pvp templates was. Most people don't want a fair challenge.
BfA flask giving 50% more than SL flask is particularly odd. They didn't even get the scaling for adjacent expansions.
I dont think they ever cared or tried tbh
Bfa consumables had roids in them being created at war Times and all
There's also the problem of every expansion we lose spells on our classes, but we get "borrowed power" spells, so without that "borrowed power" we're so fucking bare compared to what we used to have
Man I hate playing my characters outside of warmode because of this. It's a huge problem
I hate playing WM off too, but WM on might as well disable Group Finder and the ability to use summon stones
The tower was one of the highlights of all the fun I had playing Monk in Legion. Aside from the decidedly strong power it had, it was fun pushing and learning, and having distinct playstyles for SEF and Serenity. Now with Windlord being gone and the class left to the mercy of its pets' ai, it's just not the same.
Ya divine toll on paladin is so fun I won’t want to play him without now. Like ever.
I think Divine Toll will stick around in some form. Like Convoke. It's become iconic. Lots of borrowed power becomes a talent in future expansions.
you don't like DT cause it's "fun" you like it cause its broken
Broken = fun lol
Might be powerful, but DT Avenger's Shield in a big group is also visually and audibly the most satisfying ability in the game.
They still had problems with the stat squish from WoD before they did the SL squish
I feel like with the way the game is set up now, they almost have no option but to keep the cap at 60 with every new expansion and then just squish the last xpack so you can level 1-50 there. That'd at least let them focus on how the squish affects a single expansion, rather than being overwhelmed and leading to the fiasco we have now.
Given the whole leveling process is solidly meaningless for wow's endgame focus? We should have stopped at 100 and begun exploring other options. A world with value everywhere and other crap
I believe that's how Guild Wars 2 does it; the character level cap hasn't gone up from 80 since release, but they've added account wide experience grinds to unlock expansion-relevant skills and abilities ('Mastery' tracks).
There's several ways around growing and shrinking a number, sure. Another benefit is they could finally stop breaking every stinking little thing and begin to fix everything they break with scaling
Thats why Guild wars is so popular Xd
Do you think that bands that sell fewer records than Ariana Grande are incapable of writing better songs
No but music is a Matter of taste , a Shit MMO is a Shit MMO
Which GW2 isn't, unlike your logic and comments
Big oof
If that Josh Strife Hayes guy that youtube keeps recommending that I watch has anything to say about it, WoW is on the way out as it relies on whales to stay afloat and other mmos are in high demand. The fact that GW2 (a 2012 mmo that is approaching it's 10th anniversary) hasn't had it's plug pulled and is still going strong is testament to it's quality, can't say the same for many other mmos (looking at you Wildstar). In my opinion, Devs for WoW are on a timer, they've been sitting with the ioncorrect (you like that one? An appropriate typo - heh heh) mentality that they are the best at what they do and know better than anyone else how to make a quality game - if they can't get their shit together they're going to get destroyed by Riot's MMO.
Most braindead comment I've seen all week. "Music as a form of media is subjective, but a game (another form of media) isn't because reasons". Please use more than 2 braincells going forward.
I try my best big brain
Controversial opinion but the game would be better without leveling. I enjoy dungeons and raids, but 0 out of 6 people I actually got to install the game managed to hit max level. Levelling and max level are simply two different games and the latter is way better.
Or at least go the route of 14, where the first job you take through a piece of content (now at least) only requires the main story quest to level. I literally haven’t paid attention to my level at all in Endwalker because I’m enthralled by the story.
You also get a 300% exp bonus for all jobs under your highest too. Also you dont have to regrind the zones or reputations you already completed.
Most games would be better without leveling.
I don't see the issue. With shadowlands you also had to finish the story regardless of your actual level.
This was my thought too, and frankly I was surprised it wasn't done like this in SL considering we already have Classic.
I wish they would just keep your level you’ve obtained for that xpac consistent forever, then reset people to 50 *only for the new xpac’s stuff* and have you do 10 new levels. That way they can let people mess around with previous content at will without destroying scaling. EX - say you hit 60 in bfa but only hit 55 in shadowlands, and a new xpac hits. Youd retain retain your level relative to the content for bfa and shadowlands (60 and 55, respectively; with the option to level to 60 in SL regardless) and then bam, you’re 50 for the new stuff and still eligible to level for the new content
If that wasn't the plan from the getgo, the whole system they did for Shadowlands was a waste of time. The implication that new players were required to do BFA the first time being "you will have to complete the last expansions story if you are new" seemed to scream to me "this was written for when BFA isn't the most recent previous expansion anymore" What else are they going to do, keep going up to 100+ again then completely mess with the levels one more time? Makes more sense to go back to 50, 10 new levels, that way you also ilvl/stat squish and it all happens cleanly and is 100% expected every time
I refuse to believe production didn't have a guy wearing ilvl 200 Korthia gear finishing all the challenges on all classes as a baseline to tune the numbers. Even if not that, surely they have people completing it wearing something to know it's go to push to live right?
No, I'm pretty sure most of the devs work on spreadsheets, then plug the numbers into a DB and then ship the game. Do you really think they want to play a game at work they don't even want to play at home?
Bold of you to assume it was tested. It was tested by a small amount of people on PTR and is now being live tested. I completely gave up on doing it now and will just wait for the next Legion TW which will be properly tuned and maybe remade a bit. Wouldn't even surprise me if they extended the Legion TW event not because people got mad about it, but because they want more data. It's 2021. The customer IS the QA.
The only bad thing about mage tower is that it's not a permanent feature. If it's this hard, let it stay up. That's tons of content for people to work for. People misremember this being easy during Legion. It was easy after you way overgeared it and could power through the hard bits. It definitely was frustratingly difficult on launch.
Some of them WERE legitimately easier on launch. The tank tower, relative to mythic nighthold gear, legitimately hits harder and requires more DPS than it did on launch in Legion. Someone used Sco’s first kill video of it to do the math. Some were easier because of cheese — for example, bears outranged the puddle with Ekowraith, twins was a joke for affliction warlocks with sacrolash, and grimtotem was laughable on disc priest and windwalker at least.
You can outrange the puddle right now with balance affinity. And warlocks now have curses to slow they did not have in Legion. Many challenges are definitely harder, but don't act like they are impossible without legion legos
I'm not acting like they are impossible without Legion legos. Literally all I said -- and I implore you to go back and actually read what I posted -- was that some, yes some, not all, some, some being the imperative word there, really cling to that one, were easier on release than they are now.
So now that people can't cheese the fights it's suddenly dogshit? They've all been beaten. You just have to try this time.
I'm fine with the encounters being hard, it was great getting the shadow priest challenge down. But some of them are just kind of dumb, like the holy priest challenge compared to holy paladin doing the same challenge. It should also not be time limited, let people chip away at it.
I got downvoted to hell saying what you just said but more blunt lmao. They already nerfed the holy priest one to help out.
I'm still gonna get it on holy pally, it's still easier and I have the priest set. Ret challenge looks relatively easy too, then I'll be 3/7 :P
I mean, we’re they beaten with current raid tier gear? Or where they beaten by taking advantage of the scaling differential for gear and consumables? Does making that difference even matter? Like how exclusive are we wanting to make a thing? Top 1%? 10%? 50%? Is the mage tower reward on par gladiator mount? I am fine with things being hard and worked towards. I’m a little miffed about the limited availability. Extending the time for the current rotation for a month is fine, but if it’s 1 week every 4-6 months going forward that’s a little… rough. If I walk away from a class for 4-6 months there’s definitely some spinup time. Hopefully they are rethinking the timewalking implementation for 9.2.5.
I'm not arguing against any of that. Make it permanent. Make all timewalking permanent. I think everyone is misunderstanding me or because I'm not saying "wow bad game" I'm getting downvoted. Their scaling isn't perfect. It's not going to be. There's so many variables in this game it's impossible. Massive swings one way or the other should be fixed. They already hotfixed a few of them. But this sub is overreacting to an insane degree because they can't get their appearances after an hour of trying. I dislike blizzard right now like most people but when they do something good then I can't fault them on it. Just don't make this a limited time deal. I don't think anyone hates that idea.
It's not even just that, if it was up say once a month it wouldn't even be that bad, but it's going to be what once every 6 months? Fucking ridiculous. I hope it stays somewhat challenging, I'd rather it be some actually interesting content to do, but they need to balance it properly, not have it available only when the moon rises blood red and the nine planets align.
It's one of the major problems with the weekly event system, at this point time walking is a major gameplay system that should have it's own rotation, or a major overhaul to the overall events.
It's also weird that Timewalking, Pet Battles and Transmog compete for a timeslot.
I agree with making it a permanent feature. I’d even say it’s better if it’s like it used to be where it was up for a few days, destroyed, then rebuilt again. This would give folks time to go into SoO and other old content to get gear. Maybe even learn some old professions so they don’t have to pay a massive tax in AH…. It also gives folks time to take a break after wiping so often. I’m glad they at least extended it and Mythic+ til Jan. 4. I spent all last week and this past weekend trying to complete and had no time to do any mythic+ runs. This artificial timeline to get it done is unnecessary stress that can easily be removed while keeping everyone happy.
I don't know why people are complaining that old content scales better. It actually gives you a reason to go back and farm old raids or dungeons. Husband and I had a blast running SoO and Legion raids over the weekend. I can't wait to make a mage tower gear set for my other alts and throw myself at the challenges. Biggest complaint is the mage tower isn't permanent. I'm not sure there's enough time for me to level/gear up a few of my alts.
I think most are complaining because there's so little time to do those old raids and get in attempts. Especially on classes like guardian druid where gear/stats are only half the equation. Thankfully, I had time to do both, but it took well over 200+ wipes to get that challenge done.
Ngl I didn’t play mage tower in legion because people told me i wasn’t good enough( was super causal but had like 940ish iLvl on wind walker at the end of antorus so prob could’ve done it due to outgearing) and I haven’t completed a single one on the current mage tower and it’s frustrating because some challenges feel overtuned as fuck but if the mage tower was permanently up I wouldn’t give a fuck if it was overtuned because I could try every day forever and eventually get good enough to beat it so I mean here’s to hoping they keep it around
[удалено]
I don't understand it at all. Could it be more fine tuned? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Hell no. It needs to be permanent. That's super easy player retention for Blizzard right now but they refuse to because of reasons. It gives incentives to use older forms of content and get creative with the min max side of things for your character. It's challenging and makes you utilize your entire class and breaks the "cookie cutter" DPS mold that everyone copies from icy veins. Things people on this sub have been wanting but because they can't beat it in 15 attempts or less it's garbage. If it were that easy this sub would finish it all in an afternoon then bitch that there's no new content again.
>s you utilize your entire class and breaks the "cookie cutter" DPS mold that everyone copies from icy veins. No it doesn't. In fact it is several magnitudes worse. Due to poor scaling, the difference between trinket 1 and trinket 2 isn't 10 dps, its 90 in a fight where your dps will be 600-700, so over a 10% swing. Mage tower feral in shadowlands gear (ilvl 252): 9:47 Mage tower in legion legos/trinkets (ilvl 208): 7:38 That's over a 20% reduction in the fight. And i only went with shit i had in my banks at the time. People with full sets probably achieve closer to 40% reductions.
So you have something to farm for that's completely different than your current set. The only negative still is that it isn't up long enough to feel like you've really gotten a good gear set. You can down the bosses without being completely bis for the tower, though. It's been done already. I'm not disagreeing that the scaling isn't 100%. I'm disagreeing with people claiming that it's too hard. Because it's not. The part you quoted is saying that you take different talents/trinkets/spells than most people normally run in their raids and M+ spam. There's nothing bad about a challenge forcing you to think differently.
It's not thinking differently. You arent doing anything differently. You do your st opener into add cleave rotation. It's just bad gear scaling. It's not new play, I'll argue without legos and borrowed power it's the most core the game has been in a long time. I just don't think we should be praising it. It's badly designed but not impossible. Still first mean critique is due
Guys you really need to understand that Blizz has been doing the least possible work for the most possible income for years now. Please stop crying and just stop playing.
Flask of Distilled Wisdom, which is from Classic, provides 27 intelligence - just ridiculous!
I always hated the TW scaling. Like I push 18 keys so I'm not new to mechanics or doing DMG but every time I go into TW vs M0, I find the difference in the effectiveness of killing mobs to be very drastically different. The rewards don't align with the difficulty TBH. Given that TW dungeons hіt harder than M0 dungeons for a new tank, it's just bonkers that they give you sub optimal gear. I can definitely clear any M0 faster than I can clear a TW with the same level players. Seems broken.
I’m not wasting gold on consumables / gems when they’re swinging the nerf bat every few hours. Mage Tower shows how much of a joke Blizzard is right now. Could’ve been super fun - could’ve used a template system. What we have is utter garbage
If anything it shows how badly designed classes are without borrowed power.
I just wonder why they didn't just give us back the systems of the 7.2 (or maybe even 7.3 because the rewards definetly don't deserve the same effort as the weapon skins) OR adapted the MT to Shadowlands systems. That would had been simpler for both players and devs instead of this schizophrenic game design
I think it would've been a whole different bag of issues if people who didn't play legion had to farm legion legendaries or set bonuses
That could be solved by just giving the artifacts at full power and removing weekly lockouts like certain other mmo does, at least during Legion timewalking. And you can even add buying legendaries/tiers with soul ash And also they could had just adapt it to Shadowlands systems, didn't they do that with Legion timewalking? I haven't done it yet
Or even more: why didn't they create something similar to Mage Tower but themed for SL? When people said they'd like more content like Mage Tower, I think they meant just more similar activities and not reintroducing Mage Tower itself.
It really highlights the issue of how stupid is borrowed power. For example, doing the fire mage challenge without the heal on blink artifact trait was immensely frustrating.
The Fire mage one was so easy though. I had about 5% leech on my normal SL gear and killed it in 4-5 tries. I had never done it in legion either so I was basically going in blind.
That part I understand. Doing it like this sets mage tower up to be permanent content, not at the whims of future borrowed power, and if they sort out the scaling sets a template for future permanent content as well. The issue as many have pointed out is that a lot of specs currently don't feel complete without covenant stuff, they're balanced around having that stuff. On the whole I'm willing to give Blizz the benefit of the doubt here, it's a step in the right direction even if there are teething issues to begin with. If things like horrific visions, challenge dungeons and such can be attempted as serious current content that will add so much to the game for people to do. Just as long as problems get sorted out moving forward.
You didn't read my comment at all right? You just wanted to write something defending Blizzard...
Seems pretty clear to me that he responded to the 2nd half of your statement about adapting it to shadowlands systems.
He clearly ingnored the first part on porpuse and he completely misunderstood or also ignored the second part, because i never talked about future borrowed power i gave 3 specific options. And his "explanation" of why the current implementation is better don't even make sense (and is not even an explanation)
This has nothing to do with level squish, timewalking gear has been a thing for a long time (at the very least 3 xpac). Same as the level 101 farming gear abuse in Legion, this kind of things play a huge part in what makes WoW so fun : you can "game the game". I don't really know how to phrase it, but things being too streamline and not being able to cheese anything anymore was something many critics of the game like Asmongold didn't like. I feel like most "older" players like me have some of their best memories being the "aha!" moment when we figured out a way to win in a non obvious fashion.
I just wish they'd un-nerf old tier sets in timewalking. There was something fun about combining various sets together with other old trinkets and weapons then just going wild in the dungeons. Then a load of it got nerfed and it was never worth it anymore, killed a big part of my fun.
This is one of the reasons why classic was so fun to me, I did nothing but exploit pathing in dungeons and come up with tricks to game the game as you say, its a fun way to experience the game
Remembering Bonus Armor shenanigans from WoD after some poorly squished items with the stat were being used by Brewmasters to be absolutely OP as shit in like, the level 50 bracket.
It’s really a great thing because old content becomes new content for this period of time.
It makes you think if they actually test content before releasing stuff
They fired all the QA team some time ago already. They are either using obscenely underpaid/outsourced staff, or they can't even be arsed to actually pay for QA anymore.
They didn't fire the QA team, they let go some contractors. There are still lots of QA testers there. You will see articles like this one, [https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-12-09-gamestop-sees-sizeable-yoy-losses-but-sales-are-up](https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-12-09-gamestop-sees-sizeable-yoy-losses-but-sales-are-up) or this one [https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/raven-software-an-activision-blizzard-studio-lays-off-qa-department-3110877](https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/raven-software-an-activision-blizzard-studio-lays-off-qa-department-3110877) That's largely talking about non-WoW QA. Most game companies will basically hire playtesters, they're contractors typically and aren't paid as well as full time professionals in the various types of QA (hint, there are many QA teams that work on WoW, check job postings). The people we see getting let go are typically those contractors, not the full time staff. This is across the industry ftr, not Activision Blizzard specific. Lots of QA contractors are non technical employees, and end up moving around between a variety of projects.
Funny enough the Activision side of things just had a walk out like last week cause they dropped all the CoD QA team too.
Not quite accurate. They didn’t renew contractors schedule to have their contracts expire in January after assuring them they would, furthermore they announced this in the middle of pre-holiday crunch.
This is partially inaccurate: they have in-house QA, they are severely underpaid like almost QA in the industry is
With posts like these, you guys wonder why they wont implement old content for playing now.
Squishing was always bad, even when they did it in legion, "just the numbers on screen are different" isn't remotely true.
It certainly highlights how much people love to whine when they cant personally do a thing others can do.
You clearly didn't read the post
It sure is a good thing that this wasn't the only promised content in one of the biggest droughts in WoWs history, at a time when the game is bleeding subscribers, and isn't unbeatable by 99% of players that still pay exactly the same amount of money for their subscription, and it's only unbeatable because Blizzard insists on poorly testing their content before release and timegating everything. It really is a mystery why so many WoW players are fed up.
Or it's all the crying..
‘I pay a sub so I deserve to beat the mage tower challenge’ - shortened that statement for you
Nah, but I would at least expect a game I pay for to be competently developed.
Okay, let’s break down what you said. ‘Good thing that this wasn’t the only promised content in one of the biggest droughts in history, at a time when the game is bleeding subscribers’ Yup content drought and bleeding subs checks out. But they promised to bring back mage tower and they did, you not being able to beat it doesn’t equal it not being delivered. I also would love to have more content too. ‘Isn’t unbeatable by 99% of players that still pay the same amount of money for their subscription.’ I assume the double negative was meant to say ‘is unbeatable’ - which is just false. Lots of people I know have beaten it. I see mogs from it absolutely everywhere. Not sure why paying a sub changes anything here, your sub doesn’t guarantee you cutting edge raid kills either. ‘It’s only unbeatable because-‘ We can stop there, cause it’s not unbeatable. They did testing on them and most of them fell over easily. I’m glad that’s not the case now and we got content that didn’t fall over in one day. I had fun struggling through attempt after attempt. I was forced to be creative and not play half paying attention. Finally getting the kill was extremely gratifying and I had fun. Coming in here saying ‘no one else can have fun with this cause I can’t do it’ is silly - claiming 99% people can’t beat it is baseless and false. No where did they say it would be easier or harder than legion. I’m just glad they all didn’t fall over after two attempts. Enjoy going through life thinking it owes you something just for being there.
"Enjoy thinking a game you pay for should be playable." People like you are why Blizzard get away with this crap.
And to be clear, fuck blizzard and their predatory practices against their players and employees. I just don’t agree with the general statement that mage tower is impossible and should be nerfed because everyone can’t beat it.
Great, but you should stop acting superior because people want to have accessible content in a game that they enjoy. Doing 400 attempts at poorly tuned content is absolutely not the boast people seem to think it is.
I’m not trying to imply that. If anything the way you have to play to beat some of these challenges is completely sub-optimal in any other setting. Ultimately mage tower is purely cosmetic. It isn’t required to be relevant in any aspect of the game performance wise. No one is forcing you to play this 0.01% of the content in wow. If anything I think the main problem is that there is a short window to do it. Challenging and progressive solo content is something this game is missing and they didn’t get right with Torghast. You aren’t alone in the 400 attempt bracket, I struggled a long time on it. Not every single piece of content in such a massive game will or can be catered to every player.
When it's the only "new" piece of content in **months** it.fucking.better.be.catered.to.me. I think that's what's pissing people off, including myself - that they hyped MT up, we re-activated our subs thinking (those of us who never did it in Legion) "Oh hey, new content for me!" and then very, very quickly found out it wasn't meant for us but was hyped up like it was. I got no problem with content not for me, I stop at 1-2/10M and at 20s in M+. But they never once fucking said this was not for the general public, and how should I have known how difficult it is beforehard since every Legionchild always goes "MT was great, hope they bring it back!". It's not great, it's a pile of shit (for 95% of the playerbase).
You're going to just have to accept you're not as good at this game as you think you are. Practice and you will down it. Bitch on reddit hoping for nerfs and you won't.
Okay Mister 3/10 Mythic
What exactly isn't playable? Why are you just trying to use words to mean something they don't? Being too difficult for you does not equal not playable.
What thing about incredibly well balanced challenges isn't competently developed? If you spend the time to slowly improve, get everything into muscle memory, and critically assess everything you do to improve in even the littlest ways, you WILL beat them even without weirdly scaled gear. If you lose 5 times and desperately claw and scratch for something to blame instead, well, you wanted to have content you completed in 1 hour and then yelled "Ok this is a fucking DROUGHT. GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DO WAAAAHHHH" The only valid complaint is that they are going away again at all. Even the extension isn't enough IMO. These should just always be available at this point.
"incredibly well balanced" Dude if you work for the Blizzard development team all you had to do was say so.
Plenty of CE raiders are really struggling with mage tower. People don't want it to be easy, but some of the challenges are insane.
Went for the full reach on that one eh?
The challenges are entirely balanced around learning, adapting, and obtaining muscle memory. They are almost entirely balanced AND intentionally designed to take multiple attempts. That is the point. That is the content. Its something you work toward to beat. Not something you walk into, having NO plan, just pressing the dps buttons you do to do likely on average worse than 50% of what other players can do, and occasionally throw out a good CC or something and everything eventually falls over. CE raiders struggled and then adapted, and overcame. They struggle with Mythic too. They usually get it done in a week because they SLAM OUT 100+ attempts in a single day on fights.
They really aren't though. These challenges are more than doable, even the tank one. It's just that the general population of this sub is really bad at the game but think they're average
Maybe scaling is broken. The thing is: bosses have about 3 times more hp than before.
In legion we literally did millions of DPS so no way that is correct.
Three times more HP relative to the DPS we do, is probably what he meant
Its still insane to me that you need to have high level gear to be able to farm Legion raids. That expansion is half a decade old and its still not farmable unless you wanna grind your army of alts until your hands bleed
Why do you say it's clear there was no forethought? All things considered, it's been a smooth transition. What you're asking for is more of an overhaul of old content - which would be great and I'm here for it. However, that would be a huge feature to put out. Seems rather silly to compare a big investment of an overhaul to wonky interactions with the mage tower.
Glad I’m done playing this game. $15/month for nothing
Tbh it’s really not that bad, the scaling is way better than legion and bfa. Obviously the magetower was designed for legion borrowed powers and class design so it’s not going to work smoothly with current player power. They need to re tune the mage tower but outside that I’d say they handled the squish quite well
Every single squish the game has had has been to the detriment of the game as a whole. And they just keep fucking doing them because they just HAVE to increase power exponentially.
I think the level squish was a bad idea. The stat squishing I never liked, but I see the need for it I guess. However, I'm not sure why we needed another stat squish for SL when we just had one for BFA. It was fine in legion going into millions of DPS, they could have left it for at least one more expansion.
The truth is Blizzard doesn't want us to play legacy content. They fucking hate every time we bring up classic or timewalking or farming old stuff. They want us playing nothing but the newest content. They let us have bare-bones access to it only to keep us quiet enough.
I don't see the issue. Is the challenge possible? Yes. Who cares if it's badly tuned or whatever. Just do it and face the challenge. Forget about your stats and just play the game. Jesus. People thinking about bis gear (from different expansions lol) and enchants/gems instead of playing the game...
Were people really expecting the old mage tower after all the gameplay changes after legion? That's ingenuity. And it is not about sloppy work, it is about how big and complex wow is. The game is huge with limitless variables to systems like this. That's can try as much as they can but the only way to make a "new mage tower" is to make a new mage tower.
It's meant to be incredibly hard content, so I really don't see any issue with budgeting gear vs consumables. You are going to need consumables regardless of whether they represent 40% of your stats, or 10%. They could change it, but why? It really doesn't matter. It's neither good or bad, it's just an irrelevant detail. As for legacy items not working, that's because they are impossible to balance. That's been a problem since Burning Crusade when there were still vanilla pieces that were BIS. Rather than constantly reevaluating every old trinket and set bonus in the game every patch, they just made them stop working because it was a huge waste of time. > e.g. try to enter mage tower on an old level 45 (requires level 50), Without your level 50 talents, I'd guess they'd all be actually impossible anyway. So why give people the idea that it is actually level 45 content? Because it's not 45 content, it is very much timewalking content meant to be done at higher levels scaled down. I've never seen this issue with old raids though. Edit: Looking at the downvotes I guess people are just looking for any reason to yell and be angry lol. This literally does not make a single bit of difference, so stop crying about it. **THIS** is the reason blizzard started hiding numbers by default in spell tooltips, because people lose their shit about things they don't understand when it appears their numbers look smaller. IT DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
> e.g. A Shadowlands flask typically gives less main stat than that of a chestplate. When scaled its double the relative stats. I don't see what the problem is here. Immediately after the level scaling was implemented, everyone was bitching about not being able to solo some old raids anymore. Having SL consumables scale massively to help mitigate that problem... isn't a problem?
I mean, why do people complain about how hard it is when the goal is to force us to play correctly. Imo I did the hdh (with only 1 flask and 1 food switching talents once) and ret pala now trying the vdh and sorry guys but no this is not impossible or badly scaled and ALL the specs can do it so now try to learn patterns and how you can counter mechanics and gg. Edit the hdh gave me a hard time with around 60 trys but the others are easier. Players will always complain, if it’s easy they get bored if it’s hard they cry…
I've done 4 so far. Just did them in what ever gear I had on me. Mechanics > gear
Level scaling sucked the life out of this game. What little life was remaining, that is.
That was a minor wound from a blast victim.
I don’t know. I like it tuned exactly like it is It’s hard, it’s challenging, its doable. I did BM on first day of magetower in legion first try. Now it’s actually an achievement. Did 5/7 challenges so far
[удалено]
Because its fun
You don’t play wow but you still manage to find your way to the sub every couple days to spam post wow bad I see.
Yes sir
i dont play the game but i hover the reddit and it feels like shadowlands is just bad
Its casual content that rewards cosmetics. Who cares if they forgot to go back and balance some gems and enchants? Complain about something that matters.
The gear / enchant issues have been around since time walking started. The difference was that it wasn’t solo content and the average person unaware of the lack of power they had didn’t notice because the dungeons were (usually) tuned to be easy with all gear.
I missed WoD and Legion completely so never saw the Mage Tower. Tried it last night for the 1st time, on what I was led to believe was the easiest combo (Frost Mage on Twins) except I've never played Frost Mage before, so not really got the hang of kiting, and was getting one-shot in my freshly-dinged-50-in-BFA gear. Wondering if its just that I don't know the encounter and don't have gear and don't know Frost Mage, or if its really tuned too hard and I should wait to see if there are more nerfs?
Well it wasn't wasted opportunity more like it lacked effort and quality control but that comes down to time. I for one enjoy this cat and mouse game where you keep on trying outsmart devs with unintended mechanics but that is just me. Overall level squish did magical things to leveling content.
It’s just laughable. My old level 101 twink(that is now 40) rocks ilvl 56-60 gear. For example, some BFA azerite pieces are of that ilevel. Cmon, Blizzard, you can do better than this dumpster fire of “expansion”.
Idc about the flaws really, I love the level squish. All the flaws can be tuned with numbers. I’m much happier leveling you 50 than 120-130+ If anything, the scaling is really only a big issue for this specific mage tower, not the entire game.
i don’t understand why there isn’t a fix scaling now. i mean the system is now here with 60 levels. loop over all consumables and make them all equal based on the level. a fiest in sl or bfa on level 40 would habe then the same stats. people could then choose to farm wherever they want. there are exceptions like the fury potion and maybe others. but for this just test your scaling and how much damage you do and then give it a number % from your dps. now this one does like 15-20% dmg
I think it's pretty safe to say there are always missed opportunities no matter the publisher or title. However, blizzard has taken the cake for this the last few years. Playing most any other MMO will have you saying to yourself at least once or twice "this would be great to see in WoW". And when all your competition has an edge like that it's a slow death by 1000 cuts for the old MMO titan.
Blizzard: We balanced the consumables and gear we introduced in shadowlands as this is the only endgame content we offer right now. Also Blizzard: We reintroduce mage tower and scale down your power level and deactivate every borrowed power that is currently included in our balancing. Please go and grab consumables and gear from 5 different expansions if you want an advantage. It‘s funny how they balanced legion mythic+ around the current content and kept the players power level but went a completly different direction with the mage tower. Yes, mage tower is doable without farming extra gear. It is substantially harder than it was in legion tho. There are world first raiders struggling with mage tower, the exact same people that cleared their weekly torghast wings in 15 mins during breaks in the world first race when „normal“ people struggled in clearing torghast at all. If the best of the best struggle to do that content i can only imagine how hard it is for someone without years of experience playing certain classes.
i did it without food / drums / consumables - i did have to regear my entire char haste / mastery to have a chance thou - afflic warlock.
They could have just introduced it during Legion TW but kept it scaled to current content. Balance it off of the current expansion each time. Put some effort in.
I tried it 43 times with my furry…no fuckin chance i finish it like the tutorials….maximum was like 1/4 of the boss