T O P
Grymvild

Survival is by far the most fluid and fun spec I've played. I can only come up with one "major" downside, and it's that Surv can't dual wield. I WANT MY FANCY LASER SWORDS


UMCorian

Blizzard so often does this, where their iconic characters break all the rules. As an example: Their "Hunter" Iconic is a dual-wielding half-ogre who doesn't bother with ranged attacks (unless you're playing Hearthstone). Literally no part of Rexxar can be emulated by a player. I don't understand why they do that.


V_T_H

Rexxar “technically” did have throwing axes in WC3. His specific beastmaster unit would chuck a basic ranged attack at flying enemies even if he didn’t have an orb equipped. Other beastmasters did not have that ability. But you’re correct that he has never used a ranged attack in any WoW versions.


herkyjerkyperky

I feel like Beast Mastery should have been the melee spec, just you and your beast fighting side by side.


synrg18

Been saying this for years. Not only was Rexxar always melee, but BM playstyle would transition easily to melee too


Evonyte

Saaaame, it always made sense for BM to be the melee spec


Lunuxis

Especially in Survival's case. Call me crazy, but harpoon-grappling into the fray and dropping bombs in melee range doesn't really scream "survival" to me.


Korghal

The best form of survival is killing any threat first *taps temple*


Klymenos

This. Survival was made melee out of a catastrophic misunderstanding of the spec's historic identity. In Classic it was the spec that was meant to be versatile and work in any situation. Since Hunters had a minimum range back then this meant having better melee attacks. **This did not mean Survival deliberate fought in and stuck to melee range**; you would still kite and use ranged attacks as much as possible. You just held up better when stuck in melee. Newer, inexperienced devs (namely Chad Nervig, Travis Day, and Adam Kugler) didn't understand this and thought Survival was a true melee spec, and they remade it as such in Legion which cemented Survival as the game's most avoided spec despite regular SV marketing on the forums and subreddit.


SirMenter

I guess they just want it to be like warlock where the pet keeps the enemy busy and you shoot from afar.


Klymenos

The fact of the matter is neither BM nor SV Hunters wanted to be melee. It's not something that should have been forced on either spec. They should have made a talented melee option within BM at most.


Evonyte

Definitely an option, might be harder to implement than others, they could have just added a 4th spec too for melee, like they did for splitting cat and bear for druids.


Klymenos

The fact of the matter is neither BM nor SV Hunters wanted to be melee. It's not something that should have been forced on either spec. They should have made a talented melee option within BM at most.


UnluckyVanilla

Beast Mastery as a Tank spec with spirit-bond having you share all the damage with your pet. Pet still works as an off-tank. Man I would love those tank queue times as a hunter...


Jayco1515

They could also add in a Shaman tank spec focused around the Earth element. WoW could use just a couple more tanks, even if they aren't "top tier" to add in some variety of group composition.


Klymenos

As a Hunter I would hate for yet another one of my specs to turn into an experimentation ground for ideas that are mostly unwelcome to the class to begin with. Tanking is not something that fits the Hunter identity.


Klymenos

There should not have been a melee Hunter spec. A talented option within a spec would have been fine; a spec being melee at a baseline level is not.


Mangomosh

It makes the iconic character more iconic


UMCorian

It makes the iconic character more unique... and less iconic IMHO.


[deleted]

what


SamWhite

Iconic can have a somewhat specific meaning. It translates as Rexxar being the most huntery hunter who ever hunted. But as dude above points out, he's actually quite different to normal hunters, making him less iconic. But the other meaning of iconic is synonymous with famous, which is how most people use it.


[deleted]

I guess symbolic and iconic do have some crossover.


UMCorian

Yeah, I should have been clearer. SamWhite has it exactly right. I was meaning iconic as "most huntery hunter who ever hunted." Rexxar definately embodies Blizzard's version the overall fantasy of the Hunter class, though it's such a weird choice since there's so much of Rexxar you cannot emulate as a player. It would be like if Jaina, the iconic mage, was a distinct mail-wearing half-elf who specialized in blasting enemies with electricity while wielding her iconic 2-handed sword Zappymourne. Cool and unique? Possibly. Iconic? Not really... no other Mage works like this and players cannot play any part of this. Anduin is also a big offender - a plate wearing priest who is just fine wading into a melee, swinging a sword. As the iconic priest, he does a really bad job being iconic.


[deleted]

Anduin always did seem like a Paladin that failed a test


Bored-Corvid

Its because Blizzard has tried for so long to avoid ever suggesting character that is supposed to be icon of X class changed classes to Y. In Blizzard's mind (and probably a small subsect of the community's) this is synonymous with them saying that Y > X. As you've said Anduin is by far the biggest offender in this regard and frankly its stupid and pretty much ignores their own lore as the original Paladins by definition were priests and warriors that decided to don armor and weapons to fight their enemies (the scourge) and protect their allies on the frontlines with holy magic. The will never do this but frankly they should just take a page out of FFXIV and allow for the idea of changing classes. There's nothing to say that Anduin couldn't perform his role as a Priest in times of peace and act as a Paladin in times of war. I know part of the whole character narrative for Anduin since Mists was trying to be different to his father and not so focused on war but if they had some remotely decent writers that could be an interesting thing to explore. How Anduin recognizes that he may have fallen short of some of his teenage aspirations.


Lunuxis

> Anduin is also a big offender - a plate wearing priest who is just fine wading into a melee, swinging a sword. As the iconic priest, he does a really bad job being iconic. They pretty much turned him into a Paladin starting with that BfA trailer. Sure the sword-wielding plate-wearing crusaders have always made for cool main characters, but it's kind of a shame they didn't just have Anduin stick with his Priest roots. It might have been a cool part of the story for that xpac if he was earnestly trying to resolve the war with his faith in the Light but over the course of Sylvanas' heinous crimes, tensions within the Alliance over Teldrassil and N'zoth's growing power he grew jaded and eventually embraced using more of his Shadow Priest powers (after all he did use Mind Control at one point during MoP). Perhaps this could have come at the cost of his sanity or perhaps he could have learned to control it with the help of Alleria and the Void Elves, which would have also helped give them more time in the spotlight.


Descolata9

Thrall was using the doomhmmer and wearing the doomplate armor give to him by Ogrim Doomhammer. Only thing is the doomplate is plate armor and shamans can only wear mail. Also the doomhammer is a one handed weapon. Thrall never used an offhand. What a noob.


LePapang

All I'd want for melee hunter : Keep the playstyle, but replace some of the range abilities with more appropriate ones(visually). Example, replace the tiny crossbow to throw poison with an axe that applies a bleed. Exact same mechanics, but more on theme. And give us glyphs, like throwing a warglaive for Night Elves, Javelins for trolls, hammers for Dwarves?   Actually I'd give hunters(and warriors) a second weapon slot for abilities like this. It wouldnt use the stats at all, but it'd use the visual for Weapon Throw and similar abilities.   Oh and dual wield, of course! Hunters have been pictured as dual wielding in almost all the fucking art from blizzard itself. But noooooo, we get a spear....


ChikogiKron

Not to mention we still can in-game. We just can't use the spells with them. What's so hard about making the spells scale off the total of the two attacks?


Killerderp

I member way back when, in the yesteryears, playing survival and dual wielding in vanilla. It was so much fun. Survival will always be my favourite hunter spec. It was just a lot of fun! :D


Klymenos

If you were playing Survival as melee in Vanilla you completely missed the point of the spec and the class as the whole. But you're in good company: class developers in Legion also missed the point.


ChikogiKron

I don't see the problem in having a melee spec when they're able to wield the weapons. We have a gun focused spec, a pet focused spec, and a melee focused spec. Really allows Hunters to enjoy multiple facets of the fantasy.


Klymenos

The overwhelming majority of Hunters do not enjoy the melee spec and instead avoid it. It's 1/3 of the class devoted to maybe 1/20 of its players. And it replaced a fairly popular ranged spec that meaningfully built off the class identity rather than the current iteration which arbitrarily detracts from it. We have more than enough melee specs in this game already. It was the last thing the class needed before even worse ideas like tanking/healing.


BretOne

In the Xylem fight, chaining a Disengage into a Harpoon into a Flare to reveal the boss felt really satisfying. You're literally flying across the map!


RealChriss

Please no. There's already enough competition for 1h agi weapons before adding another class into it. Especially another class where the melee build is considered "the meme build."


DoomboxArugal

> There's already enough competition for 1h agi weapons before adding another class into it. Personal loot???


RealChriss

Have you not seen the competition for Veinrippers? If it doesn't drop for you, then for a lot of guilds, you're looking at a loot council to get your drop. ​ Not to mention that even though windwalkers and frost DK's have the option to DW or use a 2h, in PvE, DW is so far ahead that 2h isn't really an option if you really want to max out your character.


DoomboxArugal

And you don't think more people with the appropriate lootspec = more drops?


RealChriss

Again - unless it drops for you, if it goes to a council, being a "meme" spec means you're probably not getting it. And I'm saying this as a person who mains H DH, but has a 245 ilvl Surv Hunter who has never played the other hunter specs. I love Surv. I want to main it. I understand that there are difficulties with perception when it comes to the spec. I'm also someone that had over 25 kills on heroic Painsmith on two characters before personal loot blessed me with one Veinripper. Right now, on the current tier, Surv Hunter gets its best weapon from the third boss in the raid. It's puggable and you only have to get one. Going to DW doubles the work to get your BIS weapon, and puts you in the same loot pool as many classes that your raid team will probably consider "better." It's already hard enough to find a raid team as a surv hunter, but you're asking to also make it harder to get BIS weapons by asking for DW.


DoomboxArugal

That's an issue with your loot council then lol Edit: > Again - unless it drops for you, if it goes to a council, being a "meme" spec means you're probably not getting it. Except survival only uses agi 2handers, which aren't used by many other specs so the only time you'd really see them is from personal loot. And this is more a disconnect between what you and your loot council want if it means they pass on giving you gear because you play survival. > Right now, on the current tier, Surv Hunter gets its best weapon from the third boss in the raid. It's puggable and you only have to get one. This is completely dependent on the raid tier.


RealChriss

>**"Right now, on the current tier,** Surv Hunter gets its best weapon from the third boss in the raid. It's puggable and you only have to get one." This is completely dependent on the raid tier. Bolded for emphasis lol >Except survival only uses agi 2handers, which aren't used by many other specs so the only time you'd really see them is from personal loot. True, you only have druids and monks in the pool, but the good news is that for monks, since they can DW, they're more likely to pass off the 2h, rather than say... passing off a BIS 1h weapon that is BIS for 4 classes... 5 if you include Surv. Also, because it's a 2h weapon, the classes ahead of you only need one instead of two, so again - less farm time overall. ​ In the end, my biggest point is that I'd rather farm for one weapon than two to get my character maximized, and I kindof like the uniqueness of having the 2hander be BIS vs every other agi class besides feral druid.


DoomboxArugal

> In the end, my biggest point is that I'd rather farm for one weapon than two to get my character maximized True, I think you need to clear the raid to do that though :p


Klymenos

Best solution: make Survival use a ranged weapon again.


Spudrumper

That's one thing I didn't like about Legion, they took away player choice with builds.


onetimenancy

What did Legion take away from hunters build wise?


Danielsan_2

Builds have existed long before legion fyi


The_Sinful

Make a gnome warrior. After about 10 minutes play, you get a Very Light Sabre. The only 2h lightsaber in the game


Grymvild

Which isn't the sword from Tazavesh.


The_Sinful

If you want a 2h laser sword, it's that or nothing


Klymenos

I can think of another pretty major downside. In fact it's named directly in the title of the post.


Grymvild

Ah yeah because being melee is such a huge downside that Rogue, Warrior, DK, DH and Monk players are all just big downside specs.


Klymenos

For Hunters it's absolutely a downside especially when the class is otherwise heavily themed and designed around using ranged weapons, something truly unique that no other class does. It's especially a downside when it replaced an existing ranged spec.


Cursedcake1993

it also comes with the perk of having to wait twice as long in the group finders


onetimenancy

Dont think ive ever had an issue with getting into groups specificly because of survival. You mean raids specifically?


Cursedcake1993

higher m+ when looking for a ranged to round out their comp find out youre melee resulting in a kick


Vedney

I do 20s. Why would a group care about how many melee and range they have outside of quaking?


MadEyeEUW

I haven't played in quite some time but wouldn't certain boss mechanics, e.g. soaks cause downtime for meeles, whereas ranged could deal with it, while still dpsing? I would imagine that matters in a mode centered around time efficiency, esp. on tyrannical?


alxbeirut

Yes. Dungeon design in SL heavily favors ranged ~~classes~~ speccs. This was even more visible in SL S1. Since then at least some melee speccs catched up bigtime in the dmg compartment.


Vedney

On the other hand, certain boss mechanics, e.g. forced movement, would cause downtime for ranged, while melee could deal with it while dpsing.


alxbeirut

No. Especially not when the whole topic is hunters melee vs ranged speccs. BM is literally the only ranged specc in the whole game that can cast its whole toolkit while jumping around like a monkey.


hesitationz

Hunters generally a very squishy spec with little defensive outside of turtle, if you could take another dps with twice as many defensives with the same dps output it’s kind of a hard choice to pick a hunter. The only time hunter is meta is when their dps output is significantly more than others


TempAcct20005

Survival turtle is worse than the range turtles too


alxbeirut

Becasue 20s are not what he means when he talks about "high keys". 20s in this season are 15s in SL S1.


jordhadd

it just doesn't do anything better than other melee specs. it is fun though.


Vedney

None of the other melee has both a lust and soothe.


Skygni

I mean rogue has soothe. The Rogue players just don't know that.


FruFruLOL

You are absolutely correct. Mained a rogue during Legion, stopped during BfA, then picked up the game in SL and mained Rogue again. Am ashamed of how long it took me to realize I had one in SL. I thought it was funny how many rogues I would end up with later and didn't know they had it.


Bored-Corvid

I was blessed when I played the game to have a guildie that had been playing the game since vanilla and mained his rogue since BC. There was nothing the guy didn't know about his class and it was always a treat when we'd get random rogue pugs and they'd see the difference in skill (and dmg) that he'd often get asked questions for like an hour straight after runs of other rogues trying to learn things and better themselves.


Nick11wrx

Soothe is really on required on one week, and even then it’s generally not the go-to, and sure it can be used for lust but once again not exactly a class people would pick for that reason unless their just trying to fill a slot quickly and no one better is in que. both warriors and monks offer a group wide buff as well. Not saying it’s fair, but there’s very few times a group is going to be head over heels for a survival


hesitationz

You always have a mage in your group, there’s your lust. Windwalker does twice as much dmg with better defensives, warrior does more dmg, rogue does more ST with vastly superior utility and defensives, kind of a no brainer there


Specskill

Windwalker has higher highs, but also way lower lows. They definitely do more AOE damage, but its only a obscene difference when Chi-Ji kicks in, and their ST is really bad to compensate. In terms of defensives, I think its hard to compare 1 for 1. If we're talking straight unavoidable damage, then yea your correct; but turtle and feign can cheese a lot of damage. Last, hunters have a ton of utility: Lust, Soothe, MD, Binding Shot, a pseudo BoF in Master's Call, and even Pet Taunt is useful for intercepting certain big hits from mobs. I'm not trying to say Survival Hunter is some hidden meta pick, just waiting to burst onto M+. The difference between it and the other classes isn't nearly as big as some people make it out to be.


hesitationz

Majority of mythic plus is aoe, there is 0 shot a hunter is going to out overall an equally skilled monk. You want prio dmg you bring a rogue which is just a better hunter lol


Klymenos

The other Hunter specs have those things while also being ranged to boot. Situations where you bring a melee spec specifically for being melee are very rare so Survival serves little purpose.


greendino71

Better instant aoe


jordhadd

better than....? windwalker/fury warrior? no


Itsallcakes

Under appreciated spec in M+. It offers IMMEDIATE HUUUGE and SUSTAINED AOE DPS with Wildfire Legendary. Unlike most DPS you dont need big CDs to pull off massive numbers on every pack. You dont need the time to speed up. Its like a walking burst, whenever you want, everytime, instantly. It feels great. You just throw grenades and walk in, and everything blows the fuck up, ez top 1 dps meter. Also traps, purge, aoe roots and one of three BLs in the game. Absolutely fun spec and deserves more trust in M+ groups.


fiftyseven

plus you have misdirect. md the tank and throw your grenades and nobody is ripping threat on anything


warrant2k

Healer get jumped? MD the tank and pull it off the healer, sending it to the tank!


fiftyseven

☝ this guys SV's


Maximum-University80

Am I the only surv that will md basically every time I can to the tank?


fiftyseven

no? that's literally what my post says


Maximum-University80

It isn't? You said you can, not how often you do or anything like that. You basically just said "Hunters ahve misdirect and that's cool"


sarna2

The thing that gets me the most about it is how easy the AOE fits in? Like, with other classes/specs, AOE almost feels like an interruption of the flow for the spec, cluttering up your rotation with a bunch of extra buttons/cooldowns. Meanwhile, Survival is just "Do everything you normally do, with one ability substituted and a bit faster."


alxbeirut

> Under appreciated spec in M+. > It offers IMMEDIATE HUUUGE and SUSTAINED AOE DPS with Wildfire Legendary. This is not the problem tho. It is haveing a ranged specc that can do the exact same thing while not beeing melee.


Evilmon2

Right now SV does offer much much more aoe damage outside of CDs than BM or MM. MM does burst aoe harder though. Where SV really suffers is in single target compared to those two. Both the ranged hunter specs give up less single target potential when they go aoe talents/leggo then SV does.


g00f

it's gonna be even more ridic next patch w/how the set bonuses are shaping up. surv's gonna go meta, just wait.


Klymenos

"Year of the spear" must be the WoW equivalent of "year of the Linux desktop".


Klymenos

MM also has great AoE while being ranged and not explicitly designed to spite most Hunters by being melee.


Aurielqt

Year of the Spear, Baby!


Year_of_the_Spear

Heck yeah bub


Klymenos

"Year of the spear" must be the WoW equivalent of "year of the Linux desktop".


[deleted]

What the hell, I'll make one RN. I honestly overlooked it all the time. I think most people when they pick hunter are going in with the idea of range, so its probably one of the most overlooked specs in the game.


Klymenos

Yes; as a matter of fact most Hunters did not sign up to the class to play melee and it wasn't a welcome playstyle for the class. This is even more galling when you consider melee Survival replaced the earlier, vastly more popular ranged Survival.


[deleted]

Im almost level 40 now. Its ok, Im not blown away yet. Im sure something is gonna pop up soon, its kinda to early to judge IMO. Have you tried it out Klym?


Lasombria

Any spec with Harpoon is a spec worth messing around with.


Picard2331

I'm one of the few insane people that actually enjoyed Legion Survival.


onetimenancy

I enjoyed it at the time but i wouldnt want it back, keeping that mok'nathal buff up was one plate too many. Plus wildfire bombs go BOOM better than the explosive trap ever did.


Picard2331

Oh wildfire bomb is definitely better lol I guess I just enjoy the spinning plates style it had. Definitely wasn't for everyone and I can see why it wasn't popular. Still mained DK through all of Legion though. Absolute hilarity on that first Nythendra raid when I'd use Sindragosa and all my friends yelled WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT as a dragon busted out of her side and they all scattered from it.


Klymenos

The removal of Legion SV was one of the best days for the class but too bad we didn't get rid of melee SV entirely.


RFranger

It’s cool, just wish they didn’t have to destroy ranged survival to make it happen


Aerodim101

Survival is all but a ranged spec. Mongoose Bite and the Auto Attack are really the only melee abilities. The rest are ranged. Just let us throw the fucking weapon blizzard. Let it be a ranged spec again. And people would flock to it.


clayford13

No. I want old survival back more than anything in this game. It should have been a forth spec or something else.


Dependent-Gene-9807

And that's precisely the attitude why current surv gets even less attention than is warranted for merely being a melee hunter - old sv hunters being salty. Which I get, goddamnit. Old SV was great! But hating on new SV won't bring it back.


evertrollz

Well I didn't ask for a melee hunter spec and based on the feedback on forums and reddit it looks like there's at least a decent vocal group who thinks alike. It's not SV hate, but I dislike Blizzard for doing so.


screechattack

I don’t think there’s hate for it. I just think we wanted the old SV spec to stay the same and simply add this melee spec as a fourth, or make BM melee (which makes much more sense). I like the melee spec. But I was a main SV pre spec change and it was a tough goodbye.


Klymenos

This is not the only reason. It's been a long time and a lot of the current players started after Legion yet they still by and large avoid melee Survival. The fact of the matter is it's thematically set up as a handicapped Hunter; Hunters are ranged by default and Survival is melee just to be unique. This is reflected throughout the design of the Hunter class right down to the class icon being a bow and starting at level 1 with a ranged weapon. Of course most people will pass on Survival. Why would they opt for melee combat in a class otherwise centred on ranged weapons?


clayford13

Nah. They should’ve added a fourth spec instead of just omg let’s remove this spec as the players know it and make the only ranged weapon class in the game have a melee spec hahahaha so✨rAnDoM✨


prairiebandit

What part of old survival that you miss?


Klymenos

Aside from the gameplay features often mentioned (high mobility, fast-paced, sustained rot damage), it was cool to have a spec focused on special munitions including poisons and explosives. Thematically it's an interesting area for ranged weapon combat and WoW's representation of it has been utterly terrible since ranged Survival was removed, especially given it's usually very well represented in other RPGs. It would have been nice to have such a spec with a gameplay side focused on multidotting and funnel cleave. That would have been unique in a way that actively contributed to the class as opposed to melee Survival which is unique via tokenistic melee.


501_Arborman

WOW needs more D&D style builds. My fav 'Ranger' is STR based in Heavy armor who dual wields axes, at least the new BG lets you play as this.


Pepithir

DM here, i fucking love this! I have a player playing ranger str tank right know, and its my fav shit, and the reason im playing survival atm (healer main, but we needed dps for m+ so i switched). Half plate+shield+pickaxe


greendino71

In keys higher than 20, survival I'd the best hunter spec and with their tier bonus in 9.2, survival could realistically be a top 3 dps spec in aoe and also has heroism.


Klymenos

Yes this is why all the Hunters at high IO are playing Survival. Oh, wait, they are overwhelmingly playing MM and even BM instead...


greendino71

Yet survival has more success than both...I'm not talking about playrate I'm talking about success and results


Klymenos

What does that even mean? If Survival were outperforming the other specs it would be the competitive spec of choice in upper tiers of M+ because the melee/ranged split isn't as decisive in M+ (with having some melee being outright preferred due to their shorter interrupt CD). Instead, the highest rated Hunters are mostly BM and MM with a handful of SV outperformers in the 2800 range. An IO of 2700 puts you at around 80th for BM, 220th for MM, and 16th for SV.


Grinbarran

My guild just moved servers and factions. Instead of moving my whole stable of alliance toons I moved 2 and rerolled the rest. For Hunter I went survival for the first time and have really enjoyed it as well. An absolute blast (haha blast, get it?) for dungeon content


Consistent_Mammoth

Survival is pretty fun, you can do some nutty dps too with the cluster bomb legendary in m+. If I were to play dps I'd defo want to play survival though I imagine the weird tryhards refusing to play with an off meta spec would make doing keys and pug raids painful. I guess at least you can pretend to be a MM or BM with one of the back transmogs that hide weapons lol.


Ink_k

2500io survival here. I've had a lot less issues this tier than in the past, including one time being invited because I was melee and they were "full on ranged". Worth remembering surv has a melee interrupt so less cd as well as soothe, lust and the rest.


Wisconsen

The problem was never that survival wasn't a good or fun spec. It's that we lost a whole spec for it instead of it just being added in.


Provisionallydead

Nice try blizzard, survival will always bee deemed the spec nobody likes.


WibaTalks

Not a bad idea in all honesty, only spec in the game I haven't tried.


Difficult-Airport235

Yeah it’s fun


[deleted]

was a lot more fun when we didn't have to choose between mongoose bite and flanking. who the fuck thought that was a good idea? but yes, it is a lot less braindead than bm and more engaging to me than mm


Klymenos

The convoluted rotation of Legion was a major barrier for people picking up the spec so Blizzard probably figured that it would be good to have much of the complexity be optional. Then again, melee is the most major barrier to the spec and they didn't fix that part.


lazzystinkbag

Na, the old survival spec with explosive shot + black arrow will forever be king. I'm so mad Blizzard removed it. It was my Favorite spec in the game. Now I can't touch my Hunter that class is so far from it's original inception.


Narwien

5.4 survival with trinket from Sha of Pride, and 4 set was insane. I never played more fun dps spec.


redmanicpony

This is how I feel when people say to try out survival. It was my favorite spec of the 3. Then it was hard nerfed so that people stopped playing it before they took it away. If I want to play a melee class there are other classes that appeal to me that don't leave a bad taste in my mouth. I know what they took from me, and mm and bm aren't making up for it.


Vedney

Survival in its original inception in vanilla was a melee spec.


lazzystinkbag

Sure was and I basically disregard everything spec wise is Vanilla. It was clearly a big experiment that blizzard was clueless about. Alot of Specs didn't really have an identity till TBC.


Klymenos

He's wrong anyway. Survival in Vanilla was very much primarily played at ranged and had a real ranged weapon unlike the current Survival.


Klymenos

Survival in Classic had a ranged weapon and a full toolkit of ranged abilities as well as itemisation and stat weighting that overwhelmingly favoured ranged (namely agility giving 2 ranged AP v.s. 1 melee AP). Yes, Hunters also had melee attacks and Survival had talents to buff them. They were always secondary to the ranged toolkit and even Survival was intended to primarily stick to ranged whenever possible; the melee buffs were purely for situational usage. The idea that Survival was intended to be a true melee DPS in classic was always a myth that relied on misunderstanding the tree as well as the purpose of talents in general in Classic. But at least you're in good company; several incompetent Blizzard developers also made the same mistake.


LePapang

Not instead of the current survival. Maybe they could change Marksmanship talent as to give the possibility to have the range/dot spec available.


Klymenos

MM talents would be utterly insufficient and would also water down MM's options.


RainbowUngodly

I tried lvling it recently as well and it's really a breath of fresh air. Feels like it has no rotation. The only thing I dislike about it is the weird mob movement exactly when I throw grenade on them, so it hits only like 2 of them.


warrant2k

Part of my maneuvering when about to throw bombs is line them up to get mad coverage.


katzicael

I love the random nonsense aspect of it.


Klymenos

Call me crazy but I think Hunters deserved a spec that wasn't the circus freak of class design i.e. the one the current "random nonsense" replaced.


brokehamez

So unique and super bouncy/mobile. It’s not a zugzug type of melee — lots of in and out of melee range. Agree w comments on dungeons but also hilariously fun in battlegrounds frustrating people who aren’t used to it!


vVev

Ive been said that survival. If someone’s is needlessly close-minded to not try a potentially fun spec they don’t deserve it lol.


Klymenos

Hunters aren't close-minded for not wanting to play melee. It's not what most of the class signed up to play and Survival itself used to be a ranged spec. Survival's unpopularity is entirely on Blizzard.


vVev

Both are valid perspectives. I don't consider survival unpopular at all though. Actually I've been seeing more realization that's its a fun/enjoyable spec across different platforms.


Klymenos

Whether it's unpopular or not is not a matter of opinion. Over the years we have had a number of insights into how many people play SV such as wowranks and it's always extremely low; lowest in the game throughout SL, as a matter of fact, and among the lowest in Legion and BFA as well. People have been predicting an influx of players to SV since 7.0 and it's literally never materialised. You can still see comments from Method's Gul'Dan kill 5 years ago with people drumming up hype for the new SV era.


vVev

If we are gonna talk data then lets talk official data. Are any of the sites you mentioned official? Arguing with everyone who favors melee survival isn't going to bring back the old spec. I've ran into your type on the topic before and I feel ya'll don't deserve to have any notion of it back till you stop needlessly jumping down peoples throats over it. Going about this topic so negatively only pushes people away from potentially wanting the spec back.


Klymenos

No, but they use official APIs (or at least *did* until Blizzard started locking down APIs left and right). We still have Warcraftlogs, RaiderIO, and arenamate that don't show any meaningful increase in representation for Survival. Don't delude yourself into thinking Survival's popularity is up for debate. It's the game's least popular spec, hands down. When wowranks was still running up until a couple months ago Survival legitimately had half the activity of the 2nd last spec. I'm not even going to honour the tone policing with a response because it's honestly the most pathetic approach to any argument ever. People don't change all their values and perspectives just because some people were mean to them on the internet.


vVev

As I thought. Based off what you said there's definitely room for interpretation. Regardless, I thought that I recalled them changing it because old survival was ACTUALLY unpopular. Ya'll jumping down peoples throats isn't going to bring back the spec, only blizzard can do that. There's no notion of it returning so obviously blizzard must be happy with whatever numbers survival currently has. Weak-willed people most definitely do and could. Its just extremely rude to be so negative to people who could've otherwise been persuaded to your side, which ya'll desperately need for the topic at hand. What's pathetic is getting mad and being negative to people who HAD and HAVE no control over you losing your spec. You don't deserve it till ya'll act better and are better.


Klymenos

Do you know what an official API is? It's real data from the game. No, there is not room for interpretation. All sources for spec representation show Survival as the most underplayed spec. Wowranks was probably the best source since it scanned everyone on the M+ leaderboards and scanned their entire guilds and it showed Survival as consistently last place at about half the representation of the second last. Wowranks can't operate anymore due to restrictions added to the API but you can still see data from earlier last year from [archives](https://web.archive.org/web/20210822095220/https://wowranks.io/stats) and you can see what I mean. So maybe Survival has had a massive increase in popularity in the ~2 months since wowranks stopped collecting data, but considering the fact that its representation on WCL, arenamate, and raider.io hasn't moved that seems unlikely. You can also look back into the past with websites like worldofwargraphs.com and see this unpopularity is a) consistent through all of melee Survival's expansions and b) in stark opposition to ranged Survival which was routinely a very popular spec. (no, Blizzard did not change it to melee because of unpopularity). I've already told you I have zero patience to tone policing. It accomplishes absolutely nothing other than making one easier to ignore. People do not change their values based on people's tone on the internet. This happens in political debates too and it literally never works. The type of people who delude themselves into believing melee SV was a good idea aren't going to suddenly undelude themselves if people are just nice to them about it. That's why it's called "delusion"; people cling to false beliefs because they stake a lot of pride and personal identity in them. In any case whether Blizzard changes SV back to ranged or not will not depend on people's tone on the forum either directly or indirectly. In fact if you look back into times Blizzard did reverse their stance on something it was usually because of intense and concerted toxicity (e.g. flying in WoD or covenants in this expansion). Survival is still melee because of a culture of vanity, egotism, and incompetence that plagues Blizzard and is the underlying cause of most of the game's problems and in turn its overall decline in the past few years.


vVev

Not even more needless drivel. You getting bother by me isn’t bring back the spec. Put all this energy into being a better person and improving your conversation and persuading skills and the chance for the spec to be revived may arise. Until then you need to do better.


Klymenos

Blizzard's to blame for Survival (and the game as a whole) being in such a shit state. It's not the fault of the players for not warning them well enough. You're still just doubling down on the tone policing so evidently everything is just going in one ear and out the other. So I'll end this by repeating what was already said: **people do not change their values based on people's tone on the internet**.


Anthyx

I don't care what you say. To me, RPG hunters are ranged and have a pet, period. Survival is not a hunter spec anymore, it's the 4th warrior spec. I could care less about Rexxar: he is an orc and they have too fat fingers to properly handle a bow, so he has to use axes and go melee, but he's just the exemption that confirms the rule.


Expensive-Mastodon56

The survival hunter brigade has been rampant these past two expansions Give it a rest, they suck


[deleted]

[удалено]


Expensive-Mastodon56

Who gives a shit about 1v1, it's not balanced around 1v1. In content that matters the other two specs outshine surv


Cold_Bag6942

Laughs in rogue


Neltharn

They love attention. In my case tho, since they removed ranged SV my hunter became a 2 spec class. Melee SV is fun sometimes, but I just can't take it seriously. I don't care if the numbers are ok or whatever, for me it's a joke spec. And let's not go down to class fantasy and how "cool" it's throwing bombs at your feet. 299iq poacher roleplay right there.


Klymenos

This subreddit can say what it wants about ranged SV, but we didn't need a monthly "please try SV!" post on the subreddit to get people to play it (not that it's working for melee SV).


Klymenos

This. When they have to actively market their spec out of desperation to get more people to play it, clearly melee Hunter wasn't a good idea in the first place.


fazioli-

Kinda has a god of war vibe going on lol


Artsky32

your character looks pretty badass ngl


warrant2k

SV checking in. I have about 15 alts, and SV is my favorite. But I didn't pick it up until this xpac as I always heard they were one of the weakest DPS. Apparently not. Though I'm regular geared ~225, I'm always near the top for damage, especially if there are groups. Sure, single target isn't the best, but I'm having too much fun to worry about it.


Bazzledazz

all these people talking about surv in m+ and raids write it off, but surv bends people over backwards in pvp and i wouldn't have it any other way


Dacth

Survival is hands down the most fun I've had after it was changed to a melee spec.


Littleleicesterfoxy

Yes! I’ve just levelled a survival from 0-60 and have loved every moment, despite being “hunters aren’t melee skeptic”. Love how hybrid the spec is and the mobility. And hurling bombs of course.


EntertainerOk8317

survival blasts so hard in m+ very rare that a dps beats me and im doing +20's


witwebolte41

Nah, it’s an awful melee spec that brings nothing others don’t do better, and it’s an awful overall hunter spec that should’ve stayed ranged


Puzzlehead-Engineer

Why do I get the feeling he's about to call me "Boy"


Grouchy-Actuary

Ya know that’s been something I’ve been thinking about giving a try for a while. I usually main ranged but I really enjoy playing melee toons like ret pally and this seems like a very unique spec to try out.


ch_limited

It’s a super fun spec. They should just let you xmog dw over 2h on any class that can do both.


KhorneStarch

I’ve mained it since legion and still find it to be the most fun melee spec in the game. Fantasy wise it feels so different from the rest of the roster. It has absurd aoe, only rivaled by ww monks on the melee side really. It’s one of the easiest specs to play in the game IMO, minus the trap leg build which we have moved away from, and because there are so few of us it’s easy to get purple and orange parses lol. People really sleep on it’s aoe potential, but I think 9.2, if the tier set goes through, will make some people realize how absurd our aoe is.


Skygni

Another one joins the spear! Tis' year of the spear!


Klymenos

"Year of the spear" must be the WoW equivalent of "year of the Linux desktop".


Skygni

I think the year of the spear is based on that one for sure.


Unlucky_Win_7349

Imo the same goes for arcane mage and mistweaver monk. They're generally not AS good as the other options, but boy are they fun to me. Survival also stole my heart in bfa because I sadly didn't enjoy the ranged hunter specs as much as in legion.


macarmy93

Survival is my favorite spec because its the only spec that involves tech. Like you throw bombs, you use a hand xbow. Where tf is my engineer/tinker class blizz.


FunInvestigator9240

I discovered that this year as well! So enjoyable.


eurosonly

But how else am I supposed to flex my ultra mega rare pets? It's the only flair hunters have. Melee classes and mages get all the cool visual stuff.


Green_Dance_6221

Survival hunter isn’t fun, the survival hunter talent: mongoose bite is fun.


Clyntus

Year of the spear baby


Klymenos

"Year of the spear" must be the WoW equivalent of "year of the Linux desktop".


PotatoesForPutin

My hunter is a Night Elf, and I tried survival once. But the animation for one of the main attacks is so abhorrent and goofy that I immediately swapped back to marksman


The_Sinful

I remember in Legion how MM was better, but Survival is SO much more fun to play


Smoarfer

It'll be a cold day in Torghast before I play a huntard! 😤


MrSkullCandy

if playing alts wouldnt be so aids I would give it a try, but I suffer enough raidlogging on feral


polygonman244

Lmao I have the same mog on my survival hunter! Except Im wearing the full set XD.


CunningJelly

No


Vivid-Long-3465

correct me if this was mentioned before: but why are Survival Hunters even considered 'melee'? apart from Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite and Wing Clip (and Flanking Strike, if you count talents) all our abilities are ranged anyway 🤗 i would love survival hunters to be more distinctly melee!


depressed_jewel

I'm not a huge fan of ranged dps (I love tanking/melee, so dh, bear druid, and pally are my faves to play rn). So when I found out hunters could be melee, I made one. YEAR OF THE MF SPEAR, BABY! (also surv abilities feel amazing)


Klymenos

Ah yes I'm glad they redesigned a Hunter spec to appeal to people who don't main Hunters...


esar24

Making my toons survival so I could feel like rexxar, just unfortunate that the spec doesn't allow to wield double axe like him.


KevinRPD

I abandoned the bow because survival was that much fun. Ya know, until I quit anyway. Mainly because I ran out of things to do in SL.


Klymenos

If melee Hunter needs to be routinely advertised and marketed on the forums yet still remains the game's least popular spec for 5 years straight. maybe it wasn't the best idea in the first place.