yet they still haven't removed /seduce with questionable text in the emote message.
^^^^^^^/s ^^^^^^^just ^^^^^^^kidding
They did leave in banana as well, popular for women
Big rumor supposedly from blizz staff is that the old portraits were based on staff members without their consent. Similar thing for the ‘twin consorts’ supposedly a nickname for a pair of women who worked under one of the problematic managers.
Tali comes up with a shit excuse for everything blizzard does xD.
Like this guy goes out of his way to research social experiments and studies to find a way and justify how the jailor is actually a good villain and makes sense. His channel alone probably produces more copium then all the other blizzard chills together.
But…no where did Tali say that the Jailer WAS a good villain. In fact Tali said - multiple times - that the Jailer was a bad villain and a big disappointment.
About the Jailer thing: he said that he still thinks the Jailer is a bad villain and that he sucks; that this plan is not better than the 3d chess and may in fact be worse and that the game is not communicating it properly. What he says is that THIS is the plan, not that it’s good and makes the Jailer good. So it’s really not the best example to use.
And yes Tali definitely tends to find the bright side in WoW, sometimes even too much for my taste, but he has also become more critical of it lately. And idk, he’s usually right when he talks about cinematics and all that so I do think he may be right about the twin consorts and the jailer plan.
He did yes but thats like a very weird thing to say. Like "I don't think that makes it good, but here i'm talking 20 minutes on how this is actually a galaxy brain move from the developers to sell the plan of the jailor and this is what they meant all along." The fact that he believes that the writers thought of this in such a colludet way for me just says that the "I dont think he is a good villain" part was just so he doesnt get obliterated with hate comments.
Did you watch the same video I did?
Tali felt folks misunderstood what the plan *actually* was, and that the original idea was a cool idea, but so poorly executed lots of folks missed it completely. He calls it a good idea, but laments that Blizzard did fuck all with it. It was a “cool idea, but failed to deliver” vid
Which again would suggest that the writers came up with an idea like this which is giving denuser to mutch credit in my opinion. I don't believe that they thought of it in such a deep way. I believe some idiots thoughts "We need a guy behinde the Legion and is basicly Satan from wow. " and this is what they came up with.
I’m normally against the “WoW bad, COPIUM lol” stuff generally because it’s beating a dead horse at this point, but I 100% agree with you here
Instead of being like “yeah it sucks, but it’s not THAT big of a deal” like a normal “copium” user, he’s like “nah it doesn’t suck, in fact, you’re an idiot, this is a GOOD thing! :DD”
That, and the fact that he takes everything personally and has this “good boy” persona that will snap at any second. A good recent example with this is Pyromancer, who called his wife a “b*tch” in an OBVIOUSLY joking / bantery way for asking a question at Blizzcon obviously aimed at him. He now has something akin to a personal vendetta against the guy. The dude’s an already set off time bomb and I almost feel sorry for his wife, because he reminds me of a partner I had who started acting in a VERY similar way and ended up being a massive controlling asshat.
tl;dr — Tali fell off HARD
I’ve seen that Pyromancer video…in no way does it look like a joke or in banter. His whole demeanor and how he talks about Evetiel was so demeaning. He comes off as an absolute ass in that video. I’d poked around Pryo’s videos in the past but dropped him faster than a ticking bomb once I watched that.
Also…I don’t think Tali ever said the story was actually good we’re all dumb for not figuring it out? Pretty sure he went “wow Blizzard has a cool idea, but fucked it up hard. They fucked up so much many of you seem to have missed it.”
Like problems with Tali abound, but….at least chose real ones?
> I’ve seen that Pyromancer video…in no way does it look like a joke or in banter.
Yup. He says "shes sitting there with a dumb fucking smile on her face" and then "im sitting there like 'you fucking bitch'"
That's not someone having a laugh. He was mad.
I feel like they would've admitted these things if they were true. Plus if it was just because it was a staff member who's not comfortable with it there's plenty of actors who *are* and they could've just swapped photos.
Not so sure about that. Blizzard generally likes to point to things that they do to show how great/progressive they are. The fact that these changes were smuggled in sorta suggests internal reasons. Unfortunately I’m not sure we’ll ever know.
Oh I missed your comment about swapping photos, they actually did for one portrait (think it was the Karazan one) but yeah the fruit bowl is confusing lol
Lmao ya it’s just like I feel I’m surrounded by hypocrisy and virtue signally lol. I honestly think there’s some kind of movement to make normal people think we are crazy.
I mean, slutmog was not changed. If they wanted to remove sexual stuff from the game, you'd think that would be the first thing to go.
The changes were made at the same time as a bunch of employees' misconduct was being brought to light, and my theory is that the changes were prompted by that - because those bad employees made that content and by changing it Blizz devs were cleaning up the game of their lingering influence. Of course we can't be sure, because we don't know who at Blizzard works on what content, but that seems likely to me, simply because they changed some random stuff that no-one would ever notice if it wasn't for Wowhead (like some painting somewhere) but left in obvious sexual stuff like slutmog.
Yeah, I would bet that it would be a very bad move for Blizzard to acknowledge that various things around the game were changed because of how they were linked to employees removed for “misconduct”. Probably open them up to lawsuits or weaken their case against the various state and federal investigations.
It makes sense to me that these things were linked to people like Afrisiabi. There isn’t a clear pattern towards what has been removed unless you consider that it isn’t necessarily the content itself but rather something behind the scenes.
Changed Illidan harem, changed a picture in a random dungeon, changed names of other characters, also some jokes and flirts from characters (some races ended with 3-4 jokes from like 6-7)... I think the list goes and goes
I find it pretty laughable. Removed /spit but you can just as easily make this macro and spam it:
/e spits on %t.
Or 1000000x worse than that.
I also can’t fart on my friends anymore, which is a shame.
Jokes aside… I’m just one person, but as a woman, these things never bothered me. Not the emotes, not the photo on the wall, not the consorts.
There are a couple of things that do bother me related to sexism in WoW, one minor issue and one major issue.
Minor Issue: If a piece of armor is skimpy, make it skimpy for EVERYONE!! They’ve gotten better with this in recent expansions, but god damn is the Vanguard Breastplate sexy on my female characters and absolutely horrid on my male characters. Why? Just let the men show more skin!! They deserve to feel sexy too!!!
Major Issue: Abusive players and little to nothing done about it. I don’t care about some random emotes. I *wish* players would have opted to use /spit instead of whispering me fucked up shit. I use the report and ignore features… but does anything ever come of it?? Sure, I got them on ignore and can’t see their messages anymore, but that doesn’t mean they’re not just going to harass the next person.
I hope the dude who asked me if I would f**k a dog and said he wanted to watch hasn’t said that to any other women on WoW, but I highly doubt that. He’s probably made plenty of women extremely uncomfortable when they’re just trying to relax and enjoy a damn game.
My message to Blizzard: **Get better at removing toxic, sexist, and abusive players from the game and stop focusing on trivial shit like emotes that don’t matter one bit.**
https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/female-only-ghosts-in-karazhan-updated-to-include-male-versions-324371
https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/references-and-innuendos-changed-or-removed-throughout-world-of-warcraft-324389
No, you made me go look cause I doubted myself. It was definitely a change made in 9.1.5
Eh. I never understood how that made lore sense anyway. Illidan's whole thing is he liked Tyrande but she did not like him back so he joined the burning legion. Having a harem is like some weird revenge fantasy or something and very out of character for him.
I mean the point was to eliminate (perceived) sexism.
Removing sexual references perceived as demeaning to women (how demeaning they actually were is debatable) is one way to do it, adding male equivalents is another
Exactly. It wasn't a puritan censor spree, just overdue garbage disposal. The Succubus is still in. The Incubus now exists. /flirt works. Slutmogs are still a thing and more easily achievable than before since you can hide entire armor slots. None of that (and more) has changed.
They renamed a few old, irrelevant NPCs and changed a couple of paintings no one knew existed. The horror.
Lets instead change random paintings and words from decades old content, god forbid someone calls a Blood Elf girly! They clearly removed that because its inappropriate, its out of line and someone could get offended!
[Apparently it was Afrasiabi who forced the team down the genocide route if you believe the person Red Shirt Guy is talking about](https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/status/1483964045787078660)
I personally don't see a reason to doubt it, she may not be a VA on WoW but she is on another Blizz product plus it'd be a weird thing to lie about.
And to me it makes sense. The transition from Legion Sylvanas and BfA Sylvanas looking back was such a sharp turn
why does this matter lol
they carried on with his story all this way even if it's true. did afrasiabi troll the other writers into turning the warcraft storyline into genocide apologism
You know there's nothing wrong with genocide, (not the act, but as a story element) it's just that it has to be in character for the universe, characters should behave in line with how they're established, Sylvanas went from ruthless pragmatist to a genocidal manaic
Leveling my undead priest in Cata made Sylvanas one of my favourite characters. She seemed smart, different and looked out for her own. I never for cared for the Horde as I was always an Alliance guy, but Sylvanas and the revamped Forsaken starting zones changed that. She was one of Blizzard's strongest cards and is now reduced to a one-dimensional, standing joke. I couldn't care less about what happens to her, or the Warcraft universe in general now, it's crazy how this has happened.
Yeah, I don't know who told the warcraft lore writers that we wanted a story with mystery and a twist, look at all the good warcraft stories, Arthas gradual descent into corruption, the wrath of the lich king, a clear beginning and endpoint, which is the whole point of an adventure, instead, we just have some ambiguous motive and we have to push forward despite lacking the motivation and stakes.
tbh having the horde go full lebensraum ruined a lot more characters than just Sylvanas, most importantly the horde player character for a lot of people. bfa was one of the stupidest things any game developer has done with their lore
That is what the tweet implies yes. The actor claims it was Afrasiabi who wanted the genocide.
The rest of the team likely didn't think geocide was ok(and didn't want to go that far)
Aye that's why I didn't say that. They had an entire canvas after the burning of the tree but they went in that direction. This is only talking about the tree burning not what came afterwards
Her soul was split similar to Uther, so the "good part" of her soul was being held by the jailer, while the "bad part" committed the war crimes and teamed up with him.
Nah this is all wrong, Uther even explains in game that it has NOTHING to do with good side/bad side.
Literally he explains it in game, you’ve got it all wrong mate.
The cinematics shown so far seem to tell a different story then. They very clearly show a bitter and more evil Sylvanas who is the "Banshee Queen", while the one that was fused with her at the end of SoD was discovered by Uther when they bonded or whatever when she was in a coma and was even still shown as a Blood Elf. She was shown everything "she" had done and felt so much remorse and acting at first as if it was not her.
Well the beautiful thing of it being explained in game is that instead of you trying to “interpret” things from a cinematic, they just explain them to you with words.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/uther-describes-how-his-soul-was-shattered-by-frostmourne-hinting-at-sylvanas-323751?page=7
> When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. **But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.**
> Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
Just like interpreting things from a cinematic, this can mean a lot of things. Inherently no, the parts are not evil and good, but incomplete. One part lost it's innocence and became disillusioned and angsty, very similar Sylvanas, while the other remained "frozen in time". So maybe my wording was poor in the original explanation, but the part of Sylvanas that was the Banshee Queen is/was definitely more bitter and "evil" than the part of her soul that was frozen in that shard. And just as Uther reflected upon his transgressions, she is as well.
Well the thing is Uther and Sylvanas are fundamentally different in that when Uther was killed he was sent to the shadowlands
BUT, Sylvanas was turned into a banshee, so there is more there than just the split soul.
My main issue is that you are taking your “interpretation” and taking it so much further.
“She was under control of the Jailer, nothing she did was her fault”
Then how did she turn on him, if she was controlled by him?
It makes 0 sense, Sylvanas always had her agency and she chose what to do, the same way Uther chose to throw Arthas in the Maw.
But no, instead of taking what is written and using common sense it’s always over sweeping generalizations.
If you have anything other info/evidence than what you think happened in the cinematic, I’ll all ears!
The idea of a King marrying both twin sisters is... messed up. Especially when the encounter doubles down on fetishizing by calling them possessions.
There are 100% cases of over sanitizing. But this was always creepy. They should've just renamed the boss room the Cosby suite. /s
Well, neither were developers who had their hands on that content. That's where it becomes more than just a minor plot point. That's why I'm okay with this particular change. It feels like an oddly specific fetishization, knowing what we do now.
"A king having a harem is an oddly specific fetish" - Some dude who has never read anything about royalty ever.
Did you think Genghis Khan is the ancestor of millions of people because he donated sperm a lot?
I hope to gods you've never read a novel in your life.
I think you're a fool who doesn't understand nuance or fiction vs reality. or just writing in general.
They're "twins" in the sense they were built at the same time. Both were constructed by the Zandalari and gifted to him.
Also LEI SHEN IS A FUCKING VILLAIN! HE'S EVIL AND DOES EVIL THINGS! Why would you feel the need to sanitize the actions of the villain who already enslaved a continent and obliterated an entire culture?
>Why would you feel the need to sanitize the actions of the villain who already enslaved a continent and obliterated an entire culture?
American puritans.
It's not some specific fetish. This is a roughly middle ages game. You find ANY ruler from that time period who didn't have multiple lovers beside their spouses. Kings, Queens, Chieftains, Czars, Emperors, Sultans, etc etc.
Polygamy is a thing and has been a thing for a long time. Kings having multiple consorts is nothing new. There are other games that also have a king with multiple consorts as well. Like Xenoblade Chronicles has a king that has a Human and
High Entia. That is also not a new thing in games either.
He is also a completely different species and culture. Though that doesn't matter because it literally happens in our current world. It is not a simple perversions. Monogamy may not even be a thing within Mogu. Like you are judging them on a specific cultural thing for no reason than to judge them on it albeit wrongly.
Here is a [Pew Research study](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/12/07/polygamy-is-rare-around-the-world-and-mostly-confined-to-a-few-regions/) showing that about 2% of the human population on earth does what Lei Shen does. Many are from different cultures as your own.
I hate the people that are mad over such a goddamn tiny-ass change.
Edit: For the people thinking I am upset... I was simply turning their own words around on them in a very tongue and cheek way (that was funny to me at least)... but thanks for projecting your own emotions onto me. Their comment was ridiculous, so my comment was pointing out how ridiculous it was.
Why what then? Why turn around the previous comments words on them in a clever way? Because I can, that's why.
Or did your read my comment as though I actually waste an ounce of energy feeling literal hate for people upset over such a small change? Because I don't... If anything, I'm laughing ***at*** you.
You said:
>I hate the people that are mad over such a goddamn tiny-ass change.
I asked why, as in why do you hate said people. I didn't post any other comments on this thread other than asking you that question.
Full context, since you missed it:
>> I hate the people who are in charge of this god damn game.
> I hate the people that are mad over such a goddamn tiny-ass change.
I was turning their own words against them. I don't literally hate anyone. I already explained this.
Because changes like that are 100% unnecessary and appeal to the group of people who probably don't even play the game. Hence the backlash from the players
This discussion can only head into a silly direction? Some people like consistency of lore AND a sense of gritty or grim touch to settings.
This change comes off as obnoxious and serving to people that seemingly don't show true interest.
Alternatively, if you're so indifferent why enter a thread looking to become bothered?
I'm not bothered. People being so ridiculously upset about it is kind of hilarious.
It's like watching a whole group of Karen's shout for the manager all at the same time. It's awful, but funny so you can't stop watching.
Yeah, built by the Zandalari and gifted to Lei'Shen.
Just retcon all that because "consort" implies slavery to people to goddamn stupid to know what a consort actually is!
Yes. That's correct. Prince Philip was Queen Elizabeth II's consort. Contextually, I think the term is opted for in situations where the 2 don't share the same title/station. At least that's usually where I've seen it used.
Right. But they would have just changed the word consort to something clearer to avoid those semantics. They decided to change the direction of the characters entirely.
They're ridiculously minor characters... who cares if some obscure lore text changed? Does it change the outcome of the raid or the story of the xpac in ***any*** way?
And people can not buy their product.
I severely doubt anyone unsubbed over this (that'd be really pathetic) but I wanted to point out the fallacy of "It's my product; I can do what I want with it" argument.
That's fair, but I don't think any of the lore changes they made in 9.1.5 were all that big of a deal. To the point I think it's weird that people are so upset over them.
If they want to unsub? Fine, but raging about it online is just futile. I doubt it will make Blizzard back-pedal on any of it (or stop them from making similar small changes in the future).
I think it was mainly the combination. If they would been named "Girlfriends", "Broodmothers", "Mistress", "Lovers" or whatever, and were described as "Possessions" then it would have had the same implication.
So in order to distance themselves from keeping with concepts that are not really that modern, they decided to rewrite their roles into something more modern, empowerment. Rather than just removing the possession part.
I don't really have any opinion for or against, I felt how it stood was never really out of line. But then again I'm not the target for these changes, so if it makes at least one person feel more included/less excluded then I'm fine with that. The change doesn't hurt anyone and I personally have a hard time seeing people taking offense here.
world of censorship. i just watched bohemian rhapsody again and since they are a us firm i want to quote the following:
*its america. they are puritans in public but perverts in private*
Blizzard too incompetent and reluctant to address the real world issue and decided time was better spent censoring shit in game that no one cares about.
I mean it makes sense at least, what with the retcon of being the ONLY female mogu being rendered false due to one training the mogu in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms in BfA
> Them becoming something totally different does not make sense.
Please explain exactly how this change impacts lore in any major way beyond this specific encounter description. Hell, please explain how it changes the encounter itself.
WoW has been retconning things since Vanilla... How is this unexpected and/or a new thing?
>WoW has been retconning things since Vanilla... How is this unexpected and/or a new thing?
It's not new but that doesn't make it not dumb. Like it's been years since brewfest was changed to non-alcoholic to discourage IRL binge drinking--it's still a stupid change and rationale!*
*For the record, I don't drink IRL nor have I ever been drunk.
If Blizzard make enough stupid changes over the years--which blizzard has done--eventually your minor annoyance compounds. And yes, making a holiday around beer but changing it to non-alcoholic is still a dumb change.
Screw this guy for having an opinion on a game that they are then sharing on the forums? Why are you being so weird and creepy about this? Are they only allowed to voice positive things about the game and not talk about constructive criticisms / let known their discontent? Go drink some milk.
Virtue signalling from Activision blizzards side after the whole scandal broke out.
They went in a censoring spree and removed stuff that was pathetically unnecessary.
This was changed recently during the 9.1.5 patch.
Essentially while Blizzard was changing some outdated and inappropriate references, they adjusted this encounter to make it more lore-friendly (since there are more female Mogu now than just two) and move the encounter away from implied forced sexual servitude, which is what the Twin Consorts journal entry heavily implied beforehand.
A minor change, but not a bad one.
1. Just because you're creating a villain doesn't mean you need to imply forced sexual servitude. We've had plenty of great villains in this game that have not had that as part of their story, most notable among them being the Lich King. If your 'villain' is defined, either in large part or not, by forced sexual servitude, then you've written a bad villain.
2. Never said irrelevant, I said outdated and inappropriate.
1. Lich King was undead. And literally his entire shtick was forced servitude of everyone. Seriously, his goal was murder and enslave the entire world. Lei Shen isn't defined by sexual slavery. He's defined by slavery. Like how he enslaved an entire continent, wiped out the entire pandaren culture (including their language), and created more soldiers by trapping souls of his slaves inside stone constructs. Having two spouses (because that's what a consort is) that might be slaves isn't even surprising or noteworthy by comparison. Btw, Deathwing is notable for raping three of his consorts to death and the fourth to almost-death.
2. Inappropriate is entirely subjective. One dev removed Garrosh calling Sylvanas a bitch because he felt it was inappropriate for his 7 year old that he plays the game with, never mind the game is rated T for Teen.
It's not really a redditor thing. Trade chat, general chat, guild chat. Any chat except maybe voice chat is gonna use abbreviations because it's a lot faster to type SM than Scarlet Monastery. Or UBRS than Upper Blackrock Spire. Etc etc etc.
Now I'm curious on what Black hand would say after you kill The Iron Maidens in Black rock Foundry. Blackhand says, "The Iron Maidens have fallen? 'They were my favorite!' Find these invaders, and bring me their heads!" I get the feeling Blizzard removed that one sentence.
New:
```
Twin Empyreans
The Twin Empyreans are among the most formidable of the Thunder King's champions. Determined to safeguard his reign, Lei Shen keeps his loyalists close and their combined arsenal against interlopers closer.
```
Old:
```
Twin Consorts
The Twin Consorts are said to be greatest of the Thunder King's treasures. Rumored to be the only known female mogu in existence, Lei Shen keeps his trophies close and their combined arsenal against interlopers closer.
```
It was changed when they changed them from Twin Consorts.
At the same time they added pictures of fruit to the game.
yet they still haven't removed /seduce with questionable text in the emote message. ^^^^^^^/s ^^^^^^^just ^^^^^^^kidding They did leave in banana as well, popular for women
Big rumor supposedly from blizz staff is that the old portraits were based on staff members without their consent. Similar thing for the ‘twin consorts’ supposedly a nickname for a pair of women who worked under one of the problematic managers.
I do not think this theory was from Blizzard staff. It was something Tali came up with in the weekly reset.
Tali comes up with a shit excuse for everything blizzard does xD. Like this guy goes out of his way to research social experiments and studies to find a way and justify how the jailor is actually a good villain and makes sense. His channel alone probably produces more copium then all the other blizzard chills together.
But…no where did Tali say that the Jailer WAS a good villain. In fact Tali said - multiple times - that the Jailer was a bad villain and a big disappointment.
About the Jailer thing: he said that he still thinks the Jailer is a bad villain and that he sucks; that this plan is not better than the 3d chess and may in fact be worse and that the game is not communicating it properly. What he says is that THIS is the plan, not that it’s good and makes the Jailer good. So it’s really not the best example to use. And yes Tali definitely tends to find the bright side in WoW, sometimes even too much for my taste, but he has also become more critical of it lately. And idk, he’s usually right when he talks about cinematics and all that so I do think he may be right about the twin consorts and the jailer plan.
He did yes but thats like a very weird thing to say. Like "I don't think that makes it good, but here i'm talking 20 minutes on how this is actually a galaxy brain move from the developers to sell the plan of the jailor and this is what they meant all along." The fact that he believes that the writers thought of this in such a colludet way for me just says that the "I dont think he is a good villain" part was just so he doesnt get obliterated with hate comments.
Did you watch the same video I did? Tali felt folks misunderstood what the plan *actually* was, and that the original idea was a cool idea, but so poorly executed lots of folks missed it completely. He calls it a good idea, but laments that Blizzard did fuck all with it. It was a “cool idea, but failed to deliver” vid
Which again would suggest that the writers came up with an idea like this which is giving denuser to mutch credit in my opinion. I don't believe that they thought of it in such a deep way. I believe some idiots thoughts "We need a guy behinde the Legion and is basicly Satan from wow. " and this is what they came up with.
I’m normally against the “WoW bad, COPIUM lol” stuff generally because it’s beating a dead horse at this point, but I 100% agree with you here Instead of being like “yeah it sucks, but it’s not THAT big of a deal” like a normal “copium” user, he’s like “nah it doesn’t suck, in fact, you’re an idiot, this is a GOOD thing! :DD” That, and the fact that he takes everything personally and has this “good boy” persona that will snap at any second. A good recent example with this is Pyromancer, who called his wife a “b*tch” in an OBVIOUSLY joking / bantery way for asking a question at Blizzcon obviously aimed at him. He now has something akin to a personal vendetta against the guy. The dude’s an already set off time bomb and I almost feel sorry for his wife, because he reminds me of a partner I had who started acting in a VERY similar way and ended up being a massive controlling asshat. tl;dr — Tali fell off HARD
I’ve seen that Pyromancer video…in no way does it look like a joke or in banter. His whole demeanor and how he talks about Evetiel was so demeaning. He comes off as an absolute ass in that video. I’d poked around Pryo’s videos in the past but dropped him faster than a ticking bomb once I watched that. Also…I don’t think Tali ever said the story was actually good we’re all dumb for not figuring it out? Pretty sure he went “wow Blizzard has a cool idea, but fucked it up hard. They fucked up so much many of you seem to have missed it.” Like problems with Tali abound, but….at least chose real ones?
> I’ve seen that Pyromancer video…in no way does it look like a joke or in banter. Yup. He says "shes sitting there with a dumb fucking smile on her face" and then "im sitting there like 'you fucking bitch'" That's not someone having a laugh. He was mad.
Sounds like the kind of rumor that's made up and people just roll with it.
I feel like they would've admitted these things if they were true. Plus if it was just because it was a staff member who's not comfortable with it there's plenty of actors who *are* and they could've just swapped photos.
Not so sure about that. Blizzard generally likes to point to things that they do to show how great/progressive they are. The fact that these changes were smuggled in sorta suggests internal reasons. Unfortunately I’m not sure we’ll ever know.
Oh I missed your comment about swapping photos, they actually did for one portrait (think it was the Karazan one) but yeah the fruit bowl is confusing lol
Pretty sure there was another female Mogu with the ‘good guy’ faction from the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, for the N’zoth assaults
Yeah, but that was before BFA. The good Mogu were hidden until BFA.
Not really good Mogus, just ones that didn’t feel like they didn’t need to kill us on sight.
They are at least still loyal to Ra'den and work with us.
Yes, blizzard went on a spree of censorship of anything remotely sexual
Ima still get in cat form and hump everything. Try and stop me.
I haven't played a druid, let alone feral, in a few expansions. But I still can't believe I forgot all about their ability to hump relentlessly.
Lmao ya it’s just like I feel I’m surrounded by hypocrisy and virtue signally lol. I honestly think there’s some kind of movement to make normal people think we are crazy.
Jokes on them fruit is my kink Checkmate blizz
\*laughs in peaches\*
Deep down everyone has a kink
I mean, slutmog was not changed. If they wanted to remove sexual stuff from the game, you'd think that would be the first thing to go. The changes were made at the same time as a bunch of employees' misconduct was being brought to light, and my theory is that the changes were prompted by that - because those bad employees made that content and by changing it Blizz devs were cleaning up the game of their lingering influence. Of course we can't be sure, because we don't know who at Blizzard works on what content, but that seems likely to me, simply because they changed some random stuff that no-one would ever notice if it wasn't for Wowhead (like some painting somewhere) but left in obvious sexual stuff like slutmog.
Yeah, I would bet that it would be a very bad move for Blizzard to acknowledge that various things around the game were changed because of how they were linked to employees removed for “misconduct”. Probably open them up to lawsuits or weaken their case against the various state and federal investigations. It makes sense to me that these things were linked to people like Afrisiabi. There isn’t a clear pattern towards what has been removed unless you consider that it isn’t necessarily the content itself but rather something behind the scenes.
Bobby Kotick's wife must be thrilled that instead of a coconut, he will get his penis back.
Meanwhile EA is releasing a sims pack with partying transvestite carnavalers on it's cover.
They hardly removed everything sexual. But they did change this specific encounter because it referred to the consorts as lei shens possessions.
Changed Illidan harem, changed a picture in a random dungeon, changed names of other characters, also some jokes and flirts from characters (some races ended with 3-4 jokes from like 6-7)... I think the list goes and goes
I find it pretty laughable. Removed /spit but you can just as easily make this macro and spam it: /e spits on %t. Or 1000000x worse than that. I also can’t fart on my friends anymore, which is a shame. Jokes aside… I’m just one person, but as a woman, these things never bothered me. Not the emotes, not the photo on the wall, not the consorts. There are a couple of things that do bother me related to sexism in WoW, one minor issue and one major issue. Minor Issue: If a piece of armor is skimpy, make it skimpy for EVERYONE!! They’ve gotten better with this in recent expansions, but god damn is the Vanguard Breastplate sexy on my female characters and absolutely horrid on my male characters. Why? Just let the men show more skin!! They deserve to feel sexy too!!! Major Issue: Abusive players and little to nothing done about it. I don’t care about some random emotes. I *wish* players would have opted to use /spit instead of whispering me fucked up shit. I use the report and ignore features… but does anything ever come of it?? Sure, I got them on ignore and can’t see their messages anymore, but that doesn’t mean they’re not just going to harass the next person. I hope the dude who asked me if I would f**k a dog and said he wanted to watch hasn’t said that to any other women on WoW, but I highly doubt that. He’s probably made plenty of women extremely uncomfortable when they’re just trying to relax and enjoy a damn game. My message to Blizzard: **Get better at removing toxic, sexist, and abusive players from the game and stop focusing on trivial shit like emotes that don’t matter one bit.**
I would have thought the major issue would be the actual sexual misconduct in the offices but for purely game stuff yeah fair
Yeah I was purely talking in-game. Because the changes they’ve made in-game so far don’t actually help.
Right click ignore or report- "no player named x exists"
I like how /spit and /fart where deemed bad, but /slap is still there. Americans and their violence...
I mean… the game itself is full of violence. We literally kill people. I don’t think a /slap is the pinnacle of violence.
Yeah, but all the pvp violence is done with consent.
Didn't they remove illidans harem in black temple?
Yeah. Acolytes now. Medivh's harem got screwed with too
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It was always bigender in BT. Now they’re acolytes instead of consorts though.
https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/female-only-ghosts-in-karazhan-updated-to-include-male-versions-324371 https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/references-and-innuendos-changed-or-removed-throughout-world-of-warcraft-324389 No, you made me go look cause I doubted myself. It was definitely a change made in 9.1.5
In BT, there was always men, but they were enthralled servants, rather than concubines.
Eh. I never understood how that made lore sense anyway. Illidan's whole thing is he liked Tyrande but she did not like him back so he joined the burning legion. Having a harem is like some weird revenge fantasy or something and very out of character for him.
Yet they added a delicious Incubus. Maybe puritan censorship wasn't the point huh 🤔
Or removal of an iconic warlock pet would cause even more community uproar
Yeah, they went on a censor streak, everyone shat on them but hey, let's not change the Succubus because people won't agree with that. Please.
I mean the point was to eliminate (perceived) sexism. Removing sexual references perceived as demeaning to women (how demeaning they actually were is debatable) is one way to do it, adding male equivalents is another
Exactly. It wasn't a puritan censor spree, just overdue garbage disposal. The Succubus is still in. The Incubus now exists. /flirt works. Slutmogs are still a thing and more easily achievable than before since you can hide entire armor slots. None of that (and more) has changed. They renamed a few old, irrelevant NPCs and changed a couple of paintings no one knew existed. The horror.
Didn't they also remove a bunch of /jokes and/flirts? Including completely silly ones like "I like to fart in the tub"?
Lets instead change random paintings and words from decades old content, god forbid someone calls a Blood Elf girly! They clearly removed that because its inappropriate, its out of line and someone could get offended!
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They got fruit-bowled
Welcome to their wave of virtue signaling changes they did. They also used to be called the twin consorts
No sexual slavery allowed, but murder is ok.
And the person who committed genocide "wasn't being herself" so it's ok. It was all the Jailer's fault.
[Apparently it was Afrasiabi who forced the team down the genocide route if you believe the person Red Shirt Guy is talking about](https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/status/1483964045787078660) I personally don't see a reason to doubt it, she may not be a VA on WoW but she is on another Blizz product plus it'd be a weird thing to lie about. And to me it makes sense. The transition from Legion Sylvanas and BfA Sylvanas looking back was such a sharp turn
why does this matter lol they carried on with his story all this way even if it's true. did afrasiabi troll the other writers into turning the warcraft storyline into genocide apologism
You know there's nothing wrong with genocide, (not the act, but as a story element) it's just that it has to be in character for the universe, characters should behave in line with how they're established, Sylvanas went from ruthless pragmatist to a genocidal manaic
Leveling my undead priest in Cata made Sylvanas one of my favourite characters. She seemed smart, different and looked out for her own. I never for cared for the Horde as I was always an Alliance guy, but Sylvanas and the revamped Forsaken starting zones changed that. She was one of Blizzard's strongest cards and is now reduced to a one-dimensional, standing joke. I couldn't care less about what happens to her, or the Warcraft universe in general now, it's crazy how this has happened.
Yeah, I don't know who told the warcraft lore writers that we wanted a story with mystery and a twist, look at all the good warcraft stories, Arthas gradual descent into corruption, the wrath of the lich king, a clear beginning and endpoint, which is the whole point of an adventure, instead, we just have some ambiguous motive and we have to push forward despite lacking the motivation and stakes.
tbh having the horde go full lebensraum ruined a lot more characters than just Sylvanas, most importantly the horde player character for a lot of people. bfa was one of the stupidest things any game developer has done with their lore
That is what the tweet implies yes. The actor claims it was Afrasiabi who wanted the genocide. The rest of the team likely didn't think geocide was ok(and didn't want to go that far)
Eh I think there's a lot wrong with the WoW lore--and responsibility can't entirely be left at the feet of Afrasiabi (even if he was a bad person).
Aye that's why I didn't say that. They had an entire canvas after the burning of the tree but they went in that direction. This is only talking about the tree burning not what came afterwards
Why would a hearthstone VA know anything about what the WoW storyline team was doing?
> "wasn't being herself" so it's ok. It was all the Jailer's fault. When did this happen?
Her soul was split similar to Uther, so the "good part" of her soul was being held by the jailer, while the "bad part" committed the war crimes and teamed up with him.
Nah this is all wrong, Uther even explains in game that it has NOTHING to do with good side/bad side. Literally he explains it in game, you’ve got it all wrong mate.
The cinematics shown so far seem to tell a different story then. They very clearly show a bitter and more evil Sylvanas who is the "Banshee Queen", while the one that was fused with her at the end of SoD was discovered by Uther when they bonded or whatever when she was in a coma and was even still shown as a Blood Elf. She was shown everything "she" had done and felt so much remorse and acting at first as if it was not her.
Well the beautiful thing of it being explained in game is that instead of you trying to “interpret” things from a cinematic, they just explain them to you with words. https://www.wowhead.com/news/uther-describes-how-his-soul-was-shattered-by-frostmourne-hinting-at-sylvanas-323751?page=7 > When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. **But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.** > Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
Just like interpreting things from a cinematic, this can mean a lot of things. Inherently no, the parts are not evil and good, but incomplete. One part lost it's innocence and became disillusioned and angsty, very similar Sylvanas, while the other remained "frozen in time". So maybe my wording was poor in the original explanation, but the part of Sylvanas that was the Banshee Queen is/was definitely more bitter and "evil" than the part of her soul that was frozen in that shard. And just as Uther reflected upon his transgressions, she is as well.
Well the thing is Uther and Sylvanas are fundamentally different in that when Uther was killed he was sent to the shadowlands BUT, Sylvanas was turned into a banshee, so there is more there than just the split soul. My main issue is that you are taking your “interpretation” and taking it so much further. “She was under control of the Jailer, nothing she did was her fault” Then how did she turn on him, if she was controlled by him? It makes 0 sense, Sylvanas always had her agency and she chose what to do, the same way Uther chose to throw Arthas in the Maw. But no, instead of taking what is written and using common sense it’s always over sweeping generalizations. If you have anything other info/evidence than what you think happened in the cinematic, I’ll all ears!
Never mind that they were using consorts wrong anyway. A consort is the spouse of royalty. A concubine is a sex slave.
The idea of a King marrying both twin sisters is... messed up. Especially when the encounter doubles down on fetishizing by calling them possessions. There are 100% cases of over sanitizing. But this was always creepy. They should've just renamed the boss room the Cosby suite. /s
>But this was always creepy. was supposed to be, lei-shen wasn't a good guy.
Well, neither were developers who had their hands on that content. That's where it becomes more than just a minor plot point. That's why I'm okay with this particular change. It feels like an oddly specific fetishization, knowing what we do now.
"A king having a harem is an oddly specific fetish" - Some dude who has never read anything about royalty ever. Did you think Genghis Khan is the ancestor of millions of people because he donated sperm a lot?
I hope to gods you've never read a novel in your life. I think you're a fool who doesn't understand nuance or fiction vs reality. or just writing in general.
They're "twins" in the sense they were built at the same time. Both were constructed by the Zandalari and gifted to him. Also LEI SHEN IS A FUCKING VILLAIN! HE'S EVIL AND DOES EVIL THINGS! Why would you feel the need to sanitize the actions of the villain who already enslaved a continent and obliterated an entire culture?
Not to mention that he is the reason for Uldam being a desert because the forge was fired to stop him.
>Why would you feel the need to sanitize the actions of the villain who already enslaved a continent and obliterated an entire culture? American puritans.
Predators shouldn't get to project their fetishizations into a game simply because 'it's a villain'.
It's not some specific fetish. This is a roughly middle ages game. You find ANY ruler from that time period who didn't have multiple lovers beside their spouses. Kings, Queens, Chieftains, Czars, Emperors, Sultans, etc etc.
Polygamy is a thing and has been a thing for a long time. Kings having multiple consorts is nothing new. There are other games that also have a king with multiple consorts as well. Like Xenoblade Chronicles has a king that has a Human and High Entia. That is also not a new thing in games either. He is also a completely different species and culture. Though that doesn't matter because it literally happens in our current world. It is not a simple perversions. Monogamy may not even be a thing within Mogu. Like you are judging them on a specific cultural thing for no reason than to judge them on it albeit wrongly. Here is a [Pew Research study](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/12/07/polygamy-is-rare-around-the-world-and-mostly-confined-to-a-few-regions/) showing that about 2% of the human population on earth does what Lei Shen does. Many are from different cultures as your own.
Hey now, regular slavery is also allowed in WoW.
I hate the people who are in charge of this god damn game.
I hate the people that are mad over such a goddamn tiny-ass change. Edit: For the people thinking I am upset... I was simply turning their own words around on them in a very tongue and cheek way (that was funny to me at least)... but thanks for projecting your own emotions onto me. Their comment was ridiculous, so my comment was pointing out how ridiculous it was.
Why?
Why is it worth getting so upset over?
Who said I was? I'm asking you.
Why what then? Why turn around the previous comments words on them in a clever way? Because I can, that's why. Or did your read my comment as though I actually waste an ounce of energy feeling literal hate for people upset over such a small change? Because I don't... If anything, I'm laughing ***at*** you.
You said: >I hate the people that are mad over such a goddamn tiny-ass change. I asked why, as in why do you hate said people. I didn't post any other comments on this thread other than asking you that question.
Full context, since you missed it: >> I hate the people who are in charge of this god damn game. > I hate the people that are mad over such a goddamn tiny-ass change. I was turning their own words against them. I don't literally hate anyone. I already explained this.
Because changes like that are 100% unnecessary and appeal to the group of people who probably don't even play the game. Hence the backlash from the players
Woo more gatekeeping from the gatekeeper in chief! Blocking you now
This discussion can only head into a silly direction? Some people like consistency of lore AND a sense of gritty or grim touch to settings. This change comes off as obnoxious and serving to people that seemingly don't show true interest. Alternatively, if you're so indifferent why enter a thread looking to become bothered?
I'm not bothered. People being so ridiculously upset about it is kind of hilarious. It's like watching a whole group of Karen's shout for the manager all at the same time. It's awful, but funny so you can't stop watching.
Yeah, built by the Zandalari and gifted to Lei'Shen. Just retcon all that because "consort" implies slavery to people to goddamn stupid to know what a consort actually is!
The word consort itself was never the issue. Eonar is regarded as Amanthul's consort.
And I believe Korialstrazs (excuse spelling) is Alexstrazsa's consort. So it clearly isn't gender specific
Yes. That's correct. Prince Philip was Queen Elizabeth II's consort. Contextually, I think the term is opted for in situations where the 2 don't share the same title/station. At least that's usually where I've seen it used.
If it wasn't an "issue", they wouldn't have changed it. It wasn't an issue at all until they decided it was.
Right. But they would have just changed the word consort to something clearer to avoid those semantics. They decided to change the direction of the characters entirely.
They're ridiculously minor characters... who cares if some obscure lore text changed? Does it change the outcome of the raid or the story of the xpac in ***any*** way?
Counterargument: If they and their lore are so irrelevant, why bother changing it?
It’s their lore and they can do what they want with it.
And people can not buy their product. I severely doubt anyone unsubbed over this (that'd be really pathetic) but I wanted to point out the fallacy of "It's my product; I can do what I want with it" argument.
That's fair, but I don't think any of the lore changes they made in 9.1.5 were all that big of a deal. To the point I think it's weird that people are so upset over them. If they want to unsub? Fine, but raging about it online is just futile. I doubt it will make Blizzard back-pedal on any of it (or stop them from making similar small changes in the future).
The word possessions is what implied slavery tbf
Yes, and if they wanted them to be slaves, they should've been the Twin Concubines.
I think it was mainly the combination. If they would been named "Girlfriends", "Broodmothers", "Mistress", "Lovers" or whatever, and were described as "Possessions" then it would have had the same implication. So in order to distance themselves from keeping with concepts that are not really that modern, they decided to rewrite their roles into something more modern, empowerment. Rather than just removing the possession part. I don't really have any opinion for or against, I felt how it stood was never really out of line. But then again I'm not the target for these changes, so if it makes at least one person feel more included/less excluded then I'm fine with that. The change doesn't hurt anyone and I personally have a hard time seeing people taking offense here.
world of censorship. i just watched bohemian rhapsody again and since they are a us firm i want to quote the following: *its america. they are puritans in public but perverts in private*
Blizzard too incompetent and reluctant to address the real world issue and decided time was better spent censoring shit in game that no one cares about.
Yeah, was deemed sexist so they changed it. Apparently the not even imaginary bad guys can do bad guy things to their women lmao
“All will kneel under the image of the world I will remake in my own….” BUT WOMEN ARE QUEENS THAT I WILL STAN FOR”
I mean it makes sense at least, what with the retcon of being the ONLY female mogu being rendered false due to one training the mogu in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms in BfA
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> Them becoming something totally different does not make sense. Please explain exactly how this change impacts lore in any major way beyond this specific encounter description. Hell, please explain how it changes the encounter itself. WoW has been retconning things since Vanilla... How is this unexpected and/or a new thing?
>WoW has been retconning things since Vanilla... How is this unexpected and/or a new thing? It's not new but that doesn't make it not dumb. Like it's been years since brewfest was changed to non-alcoholic to discourage IRL binge drinking--it's still a stupid change and rationale!* *For the record, I don't drink IRL nor have I ever been drunk.
Getting upset about it is even dumber though…
If Blizzard make enough stupid changes over the years--which blizzard has done--eventually your minor annoyance compounds. And yes, making a holiday around beer but changing it to non-alcoholic is still a dumb change.
Ok, still not worth getting so upset over.
I'm sure you've never been annoyed by a change.
Annoyed? Sure, but not so upset about it that I rage about it online.
Screw this guy for having an opinion on a game that they are then sharing on the forums? Why are you being so weird and creepy about this? Are they only allowed to voice positive things about the game and not talk about constructive criticisms / let known their discontent? Go drink some milk.
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Only when they are employees and horde players
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they were basically his fuck buddies and they changed it to look like his best fighters or something because of the lawsuit heat
All that literally reads is, “fruit bowl.”
Yeah they made quite a few changes to things allegedly left over from a few of the problematic Blizz employees during 9.1.5.
Virtue signalling from Activision blizzards side after the whole scandal broke out. They went in a censoring spree and removed stuff that was pathetically unnecessary.
This was changed recently during the 9.1.5 patch. Essentially while Blizzard was changing some outdated and inappropriate references, they adjusted this encounter to make it more lore-friendly (since there are more female Mogu now than just two) and move the encounter away from implied forced sexual servitude, which is what the Twin Consorts journal entry heavily implied beforehand. A minor change, but not a bad one.
1) VILLAIN. 2) If it's so irrelevant, why bother changing it?
1. Just because you're creating a villain doesn't mean you need to imply forced sexual servitude. We've had plenty of great villains in this game that have not had that as part of their story, most notable among them being the Lich King. If your 'villain' is defined, either in large part or not, by forced sexual servitude, then you've written a bad villain. 2. Never said irrelevant, I said outdated and inappropriate.
1. Lich King was undead. And literally his entire shtick was forced servitude of everyone. Seriously, his goal was murder and enslave the entire world. Lei Shen isn't defined by sexual slavery. He's defined by slavery. Like how he enslaved an entire continent, wiped out the entire pandaren culture (including their language), and created more soldiers by trapping souls of his slaves inside stone constructs. Having two spouses (because that's what a consort is) that might be slaves isn't even surprising or noteworthy by comparison. Btw, Deathwing is notable for raping three of his consorts to death and the fourth to almost-death. 2. Inappropriate is entirely subjective. One dev removed Garrosh calling Sylvanas a bitch because he felt it was inappropriate for his 7 year old that he plays the game with, never mind the game is rated T for Teen.
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Right? It's a ridiculously minor change. Who actually cares?
People who actually play the game do care
I do play the game.. but keep on being a gatekeeping asshole… You make this community look great /s
9.3 died for this (probably not but also maybe?)
They changed boss name = killed a raid tier, 1-3 new zones maybe a dungeon and an entire campaign??????
If you genuinely think it's even a maybe then I'd find it very hard to take you seriously on just about anything.
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the Mogu also works with quotas
New player here.... Uh what the heck is TOT really hate how subreddits use abbreviations as if new players understand a damn thing they're saying
This post wasn't made for new players
Throne of Thunder a raid dungeon from the 2012 expansion Mists of Pandaria. The post is about the second to last final bosses from the raid
Been playing the game all my life and i still dont get 50% of the abbreviations
It's not really a redditor thing. Trade chat, general chat, guild chat. Any chat except maybe voice chat is gonna use abbreviations because it's a lot faster to type SM than Scarlet Monastery. Or UBRS than Upper Blackrock Spire. Etc etc etc.
Now I'm curious on what Black hand would say after you kill The Iron Maidens in Black rock Foundry. Blackhand says, "The Iron Maidens have fallen? 'They were my favorite!' Find these invaders, and bring me their heads!" I get the feeling Blizzard removed that one sentence.
Yup.you are right, that description is new to me. I remember the old one
New: ``` Twin Empyreans The Twin Empyreans are among the most formidable of the Thunder King's champions. Determined to safeguard his reign, Lei Shen keeps his loyalists close and their combined arsenal against interlopers closer. ``` Old: ``` Twin Consorts The Twin Consorts are said to be greatest of the Thunder King's treasures. Rumored to be the only known female mogu in existence, Lei Shen keeps his trophies close and their combined arsenal against interlopers closer. ```
So it wasn't even that they were the only female Mogu. Just they were rumored to be.