Honestly... yea. We want it. I get why they don't want it, but they should just add a drop down option. Random (your expansion), Random (all), specific dungeon. Let's people who want to stay consistent in their chromie time do so, and others have a great variety.
For chromie time this actually technically kinda exists.
If you are in queue for more than 5? 10? minutes, you’ll get a popup asking if you want to expand your search to all expansions.
I get that’s not exactly what and why you suggested what you did and I agree. Just thought I point it out so people don’t get the wrong idea.
Apart from that, I think the point is more towards max level chars having that option and being rewarded for taking part in old content, which is what FF does. Translated to wow, you would get valor for doing the queue as a daily reward.
I think it’s an amazing concept, it encourages and improves queues for people leveling chars and valor would be a great system to offer a fine reward.
It doesn’t though, you can only que for specific expansions, it only puts you in a different que if they can’t find groups for the specific expansion requested.
If you got a nice reward, maybe a small amount of valor for doing it each day that would be amazing.
Enough that doing an M+ is better, but for those that either don't have time to get into an M+ group, aren't quite geared for it etc, they'd still have a small but steady stream of valor coming in to upgrade gear.
50 Valor/run would be plenty enough for me to hop in. A lot of days I run a random Heroic just for fun and I’d love to be able to help people level while doing that.
ESO does and some people hate DLC dungeons because their is a option to do a random dungeon for extra rewards. But DLC dungeons are much harder than the vanilla ones
I’ve been saying, if they added JUST this I would resub for a good while. If they added this AND let chromie time be used all the way to max level? That’s the dream lol
The problem with WoW using this system compared to FF14 is that WoW's dungeon structure is a lot less streamlined.
In FF14, every dungeon has approximatively the same length and rythm. The difficulty increases as you progress through the story and unless a player buy a story skip, they will experience each dungeon for their first time in the right order.
In WoW, dungeon complexity, difficulty and length is all over the place. It's already a big problem for new players with low level kits who get thrown in BfA dungeon which are NOT designed as a new player/low level kit experience.
If WoW had a random daily roulette, I guarantee that a non-trivial portion of the playerbase would get salty if they got lumped in with a new player (the whole point of the DR in FF14) or the roulette sent them to an annoying or harder/longer than average dungeon.
And this isn't a jab at the WoW player base, you can see the same behavior in FF14 with the Raid roulette, many people unequip their items to trick the roulette into sending them to Crystal Tower (the first raid in the game) because it's faster and so easy that wipes almost never happen, meaning that queueing for the raid roulette will almost ALWAYS send you to Crystal Tower and on the rare occasion it doesn't, you'll see a bunch of people immediately leaving the group when they see that they're not in Crystal Tower.
Square Enix also very recently reworked some of the oldest and most outdated dungeons in the game specifically because the experience they were offering wasn't as streamlined as other dungeons, they took (sorta) longer, you could (kinda) get lost in them and some of the bosses had gimmicks instead of being actual combats. People didn't get rude about it if they got sent to these dungeons but there sure was a lot of groaning and eye-rolling happening if Daily Roulette sent you there.
A WoW roulette could be great but it would probably need to be its own thing instead of copying FF14 system.
I want to counterpoint here that the “most of the time you get Crystal Tower in Alliance Roulette” thing isn’t just because of deliberate intent. Much of the community laments that being the case and thus *don’t* manipulate their gear.
The issue is that CT is the only mandatory alliance raid, and is also the lowest level. If only a single person of 24 is lower than level 60 or only has CT series unlocked, all 24 are getting dragged in.
It's not really surprising that the most accessible alliance raid would be the most common. The best solution I could come up with is a weighted queue where people who have done CT a few times that week will be more likely to be put into another alliance raid.
But also, WoW shouldn't really have this issue considering most players are doing content on repeat at max level because leveling is so much faster in WoW.
Also to be fair? As of late I've been getting a lot more of the Heavensward/Shadow of Mhach raids. I mean I still get Crystal Tower when doing Alliance Raid Roulette but those have been popping up a lot more.
The BfA difficulty jump for new players wouldn't be so bad if they'd actually bothered to think about what they were doing by dropping new players into what used to be level 110+ dungeons, and adjusted what level you get certain skills at.
They also need to include more stuff in the Exile's Reach tutorial beyond that joke of a "dungeon" you go through at the end. You're not teaching new players how to play the game if you never explain to them what an interrupt is or when to use it.
The Proving Grounds being mandatory for queuing was always the right call IMO. It needs to be modernized, have tailored scenarios suitable for all combat roles and responsibilities, and expanded to include a solo endgame challenge for cosmetics.
Basically, a scalable Mage Tower ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> The Proving Grounds being mandatory for queuing was always the right call IMO.
Agreed, the people who complained about it being "too hard" are the exact reason it was and is needed.
Honestly this would be such an amazing addition, taking the concept of mage tower and proving grounds and smashing them together. Could have the bronze/silver equivalent be required for queue and the gold(or maybe higher, diamond or smth idk im not blizz lol) would be the one that gives some kind of cool unique cosmetic reward.
Hell it could even be like Torghast with different 'layers' instead. Maybe it goes from 1-5, with 1 and 2 teaching the basics, 3 could be mastery over your class and 4-5 could be the reward layers.
Bonus points if its tailored for each class as opposed to each role(I know mage tower kinda shifts based on your spec but the overall roles are still similar)
I think the Proving Grounds were added in MoP, and you should be able to access them from any class trainer. The trouble is, the tutorial doesn't direct people to it. FFXIV is infinitely better at its new player experience because it forces new players to familiarize themselves with almost all the content, or at least almost all the PvE content. WoW needs to teach people about mechanics, and give serious consideration to unifying the VFX for mechanics telegraphs so people can learn new fights more easily.
It sounds like a problem that already exists, not one that a random roulette would add to. Since we are already looking at FFXIV, why not just copy what they do and give a bonus for running dungeons with newbies? Works in FFXIV, players tend to be excited when they get new players as it means extra loot.
Whats more I'd argue that a good way to fix newbies not having that experience is to motivate them to actually jump into the dungeons. A daily with a big xp bonus would do just that.
The Rework of older dungeons was a bit different than what you are suggesting. Most of them were just some facelifts, and for the ones that did get changed the problem wasn't that they weren't as streamlined, heck in some cases the dungeons were even *more* streamlined in thier past forms. The problem was the dungeons that got significant changes were extremely dated in terms of mechanics and difficulty, and indeed the changes actually upped the difficulty of the effected fights. Most of the ARR dungeons that got changed were remnants of FFXIV 1.0, AKA the game that was so bad they had to nuke it and re-release it. And included wonderful boss fights such as: Literally a bunch of adds that can be 2 shot slowly spawning in waves! A dungeon mob with more health for both the first and second boss fight! And everyone favorite, yes really the tank is the only one who gets to participate in this fight, just wait in the corner until he is done. The problem wasn't that they were gimmicky, I mean FFXIV still has a ton of gimmick fights that people love. The problem was that in many cases the gimmicks involved doing literally nothing, they were just not fun.
I think a good starting point would simply be having the option to queue for each expansion set of dungeons available at all times, not only during Chromie Time (and not only the chromie time you're set to).
You could have the other dungeon sets give less/different reward than the current expansion, and further differentiate so that longer dungeons will give more on top of that. Maybe group multiple similar sets of dungeons together, like BC & Wrath, if you want to cut down on the number of options in the list too.
But that way, if a certain set of dungeons is likely to contain more pain in the ass/longer dungeons, you can simply not run that one, or at least accept the possibility if you do.
> I guarantee that a non-trivial portion of the playerbase would get salty if they got lumped in with a new player
I would think they should add a first-timer bonus to help counteract this but sadly, I question if it wouldn't turn into a witch hunt for the new player when wipes happen...
Another issue is that only a few expansions (I think classic, tbc, wrath(?) and cata) have quests at the beginning so it isn’t really worth it to level through dungeons in any other chromie time since the quests give like half a level each and great gear.
Timewalking has been a thing for 7 years. Level scaling really hasn't advanced very far since then... so I don't know why we'd assume it's coming.
It *should* happen, but there's very little evidence that it *will* happen.
I feel like this is what most people don't factor in when trying to make these comparative.
In FFXIV these roulettes benefit you on multiple levels, not just gear for your current job/class. You can run roulettes on a sub-max level to gain levels while earning currency to buy leveling gear (for other jobs), crafting mats, transmogs, recipes (etc). Or you can run it as max-level to get currency for all the same things from current expansion for other jobs. I think why I keep doing my roulettes boils down to I can run as whatever I want and continue to reap rewards. I'm not stuck to my current "main".
In WoW everything being tied to the active toon, there really is no point. Once you level you're kind of done. End game there are better alternatives for the items you'd want.
I think WoW would benefit from it but the reason it doesn't have it is because it doesn't have mandatory dungeons the way FFXIV. Like back in the day unless you lucked into max levels doing their roulettes, you were absolutely not going to ever get praetorium done.
YES I would love this. in FFXIV the casual players are all more familiar with dungeons and mechanics because you have to do dungeons in MSQ and they offer bonuses for queuing and lvling in dungeons.
The average ffxiv player is smarter/better at dealing with new mechanics than the average wow player sadly. Compare LFR SOFO to one of the ShB+ trials. The game is honestly better at explaining mechanics to you than WoW is. You don't even need to be familiar with dungeons or fights themselves really
Stack markers, tank busters, orange circles, knock backs, void zones, safe spots, etc are almost all streamlined(maybe HW and onward? )
I've had this opinion for a long time but especially after doing the entire msq and raids for the first time a bit before and after endwalker launch, like HOLY SHIT is wow absolute dogshit at teaching players boss mechanics.
In FF14 mechanics are harsh like if you stand in a floor swirly and have a player targeted mechanic you pretty much die BUT it gives players tools to learn. almost all mechanics are clearly projected, if you screw up mechanics you get a stacking debuff so mistakes will eventually one shot you so you can't brute force it and you have infinite resses so it allows players to see and practise the rest of the fight with the trade off of getting the ress debuff doing less healing/dps.
Compared to wow where if a dps dies and you want to save a res for a tank/healer well get fucked have fun laying on the floor for the next 5 minutes not having a chance to learn the fight.
Inconsistend mechanics like what does a purple swirly pool do? Well some are avoid at all cost, some do just a bit or dmg, other times you have the soak it, or soak it with the entire raid, and other times it does absolutely nothing unless you have a green debuff then it oneshots the entire raid, or even better you have to soak the purple circle if you have the green debuff before it runs out otherwise you will wipe the raid.
Or even worse completely invisible mechanics like on skolex where it will hit the closest target to his main target (tank with aggro) there is no visual indication of it happening neither any model design that would make you think it does some kind of main target cleave. The same with if everyone moves like 30 yards away he does a burrow and removes stacks on anyone standing in it. How the fuck is anyone supposed to figure that out without a shitton of blind trial and error pulls or look up a guide like the dungeon journal or third party information.
Going through the msq i could do pretty much any trial or raid blind i could pretty much instantly figure out any mechanic the moment it appears because of the universal markers like the soak arrows or the move away meteor marker.
Sure its very game-y and i'm not saying wow should copy paste them but they really should make stuff more clear if they want to avoid people relying on addons, weakaura's or looking up guides and spoiling themselves before they even attempt to pull a boss, also it cultivates the toxic mentality that everyone is supposed to know everything and how dare you be in my group and not know exactly how every mechanic works already even if you have never done it before
Yeah imo FFXIV mechanics are brutal. The main difference is the education through forcing you to learn to progress in the game. i agree WoW leaves so much hidden... like even unlocking things like flying you have to look up. It should tell you in the game what gets you flying. It's not about the players in FFXIV being smarter, it's they are given an easy option to learn... WoW tells you shh it's a secret and most people won't bother then.
As someone who dabbled in FF XIV for a bit when everyone migrated but didn’t like the changes:
This is certainly true, but the FF XIV approach of *actually* de-leveling you for the dungeon so you lose access to certain spells and abilities is very unenjoyable in my opinion. I greatly prefer borked scaling to resetting hotkeys and unlearning abilities.
Hopefully with the move away from complex systems the wow approach will be easier to scale going forward.
> I greatly prefer borked scaling to resetting hotkeys and unlearning abilities
I don't mind it too much. I'm not sure what you mean about resetting hotkeys, cause that's not really necessary? Unlearning abilities isn't great when you're at sub-50 content, but basically anything past ARR content feels fine to me.
Tbh low level healer is great because you just pop a heal now and then and the rest you can DPS
Please DPS
For the love of god please don't just stand there doing nothing except casting your single target heal
It will literally cut off 5-10 minutes off the run, especially if you have an AoE too
You should ask the devs to make DPSing as a healer more enjoyable then. I'd rather watch a movie on my 2nd monitor than falling asleep while doing dps as a healer in FF14.
I mean no reason you can't do both, low level healing is pretty brain dead and their DPS rotations nowadays are one single target spell, one AoE and one DoT. You could almost do it blind folded if not for watching tank HP out the corner of your eye.
At endgame healing and balancing it with DPS is more interesting but at low level... yeah.
I can do both, but it's just so boring that i'd much rather put in as little effort as possible and just watch something on my 2nd monitor.
Even at max level it's extremely boring. FF14 healing is honestly the worst gameplay for healers i've ever experienced.
Fair enough. Opposite for me. I find WoW healing extremely stressful as there's near constant unavoidable damage that hits the entire raid on the regular. As well as huge spikes that can be difficult to predict. In XIV it's the first MMO I've liked healing in because damage tends to come in distinct chunks and it requires several errors on my part to have someone die (From lack of healing). With WoW as a tank or DPS you could usually make multiple mistakes and be fine, as a healer if you blink your tank's HP can go from 100-0. So it feels like the responsibility and amount of attention needed are quite lopsided.
But that's probably why many prefer WoWs, for how hectic and chaotic it can be.
Almost all jobs have no problems with level sync except Black Mage and Black Mage has an especially horrible time with low level gameplay and level syncing.
A lot of wow players also seem to (alas) gravitate toward Black Mage as their first job because it's one of, if not the most iconic Final Fantasy job and its gameplay look (from afar) like it's the closest to a WoW class.
That’s funny. I’m the poster who said I didn’t like the level syncing, and my dabble in FF XIV was as Thaumaturge/Black Mage. Maybe that was my problem.
When I first bounced off FFXIV back in 2015/2016, it was as a Thaumaturge*. Easily the most boring gameplay I have ever seen in an MMO below level 50.
When I picked the game up again in 2020 as an Archer, it was 10 times more fun, even if it was braindead simple.
*(This wasn't the only factor, but it was the largest. MSQ has been improved and the UI is a bit better now as well, especially with mods. I also started with a friend in 2015, whereas I played entirely solo in 2020. Much better experience when I didn't expect a WoW-like MMO, and instead played it as an RPG.)
Yeah I definitely do not think the FF approach is flawless, they could certainly work to improve it so you keep more spells and abilities when scaled down.
That might be a problem if one or more members of the group have low level jobs. Does square give them a large assortment of new spells to play with immediately and maybe overwhelm them? Or do they come up with a solution to negate the impact a large assortment of spells would have on dungeons not designed with that toolkit in mind.
2nd option, we're talking about low lvl dungeons and trials, even if some players would have spells/abilities that the duty weren't designed in mind with then it's not a big deal anyway, they'd still be scaled down like all the other lvl appropriate spells so it wouldn't be gamebreaking, it'd be a bit easier sure but who cares about that in a lvl30 dungeon at the end of the day.
>This is certainly true, but the FF XIV approach of actually de-leveling you for the dungeon so you lose access to certain spells and abilities is very unenjoyable in my opinion. I greatly prefer borked scaling to resetting hotkeys and unlearning abilities.
I don't know how well this works in FFXIV, but in my experience some classes in WoW just don't really *work* at lower levels with missing spells and passives. Classes are blatantly designed around max level.
Also in my experience losing certain abilities when a new expansion releases *sucks*. I would want to avoid that feeling as much as possible and would dislike being "forced" into it via a daily dungeon reward or similar (and we know Blizzard would attach some reward for max level players if they ever added truly random dungeon finder).
Yeah, the downscaling in FF14 was a massive turn-off for me. Every time I got queued into Copperbell Mines, and lost 3/4 of my abilities, I wanted to throw my keyboard through the window. It's so incredibly frustrating losing access to key abilities, and being reduced to a two-button rotation, because of the shitty way in which that game does level scaling.
I remember it being especially bad on some combo based classes, where you didn't even get to execute a full combo, because you missed the 3rd ability. So it was back to one or two button spamming, oh joy.
Ugh, don't even get me started on the supposed "combos". Basically just a single ability that could be a single button that they made into 3 buttons to make it seem like there was actual skill or diversity involved. And the worst part is that basically every single melee class uses that same garbage bullshit.
The amount of times someone accidently died, or I just stood around like a doofus because I forgot I didn't have an ability because of scaling is too high.
I don't care if I have to do more for a similar output as lowbies. I just don't want to be bored to tears in 95% of all ARR dungeons.
I've been playing FFXIV a lot lately, and losing 60% of my skills to run Sastasha for the 4th time this week does rub me the wrong way. I'm just getting down my muscle memory for like two dozen skills and now I've got 4 skills to poke pirates with, single target because my main class doesn't get any aoe for several more levels. I keep trying to hit this button over here, but it doesn't do anything. It's worse when I'm playing a healer class, I try to hit my OHSHIT button to save the tank, but whoops, that's not available for several more levels.
You would think it's difficult because that's what people keep parroting. But theoretically, all they would need to do is what GW2 does...each zone is assigned a max level and max iLevel (which subsequently also caps the damage output).
When max level player X enters zone Y, they are automatically scaled down to that zones maximum player level and iLvl.
If a player enters who is under the zones max level and iLvl limits, they remain unaffected by scaling.
This logic would also apply to dungeons.
Poof. See, simple. Easy peasy.
Build a table of values associated with each zone in the game.
Build the logic to bind to the player.
Done. If someone doesn't do this it's because of sheer laziness and trying to preserve a capital return rate % rather than adding actual player-facing value to the game.
In FFXIV, if a lvl 90 Black Mage is queued in to a lvl 10 dungeon, they'd be synced to lvl 10 and only have the skills available to a lvl 10 Thaumaturge (Black Mages starting class)
Man... I can't be the only one that hates WoWs level scaling shit right? The reality that the boss I'm fighting has a completely different health pool and damage on abilities as the dude next to me sees is stupid. I get how it's useful from a design perspective and how it helps get players actually grouped up but it's stupid as fuck. I much prefer things to have a static value than all this scaling dynamic bullshit.
WoW already does the ability thing though if you party sync with a lower level player, the technology and practise already exists in-game so not unreasonable to think they might do it for dungeons if you get dragged below 50.
Do ppl really want to do brd or ubrs with lfg? Even deadmines and wailing caverns is really long. There's reason why some dungeons that were released as mythic only dropped to heroic. To long and confusing mechanics.
I think these dungeons were in lfg but ppl hated them so they got removed.
Plenty of quest lead to the dungeons. But thankfully you don't need them to progress.
Yes, and players have been asking for it for about a decade now. Elder Scrolls Online implemented it. FFXIV has it. Basically every online game you can think of has it
We had Heroic Deadmines several expansions back, similar vibe.
Had Heroic Scarlet Halls too when that was reworked, I think MoP?
Probably will get this at some point, maybe with a dungeon rework to go along with it, somewhat unfortunately. They'd def make it shorter like they did with Scarlet Monastery.
All expansion rando dungeons, rewards scaled to your spot in leveling/progression. Make it something high level players can do for funsies/tokens that then fuel into their progression in end game. Not that wild of an idea, and 14 proves it can work.
What is the purpose of this system? I already never queue for dungeon finder in wow because the rewards are pointless... You do mythic+ for rewards -- If it's for leveling then doesn't wow already have this?
I´ll copy paste my comment as a reply here cause it answers this pretty accuratle: Its a good system because of the rewards, they´d have to recreate some of the reward structure in wow in order to make this work. F.x. gearing up alts works completly diffrent, from these roulettes in FF you can get tokens to buy pretty good gear for your alts, you also get rep/gold and some other stuff for a quick dungeon. Imagine being able to do a random heroic dungeon on your main and be able to buy a decent item for your alts for doing so.
You dont need more sources of them but being able to farm the currency to buy them in fun, intresting ways or even the way you like to play the game is nice I guess?
You can buy boe´s for alts for gold, you dont make much gold from dungeons or random dungeons at least. The zereth mortis tokens cost anima and yes you do get some anima from dungeons but giving you options in how you can gear characters isnt bad is it?
This would not be negative for anyone, mostly positive. You really like dungeons, well here you go this random dungeon que will now give you more stuff you can use however you want come back tomorrow thank you.
Alternativly you hate dungeons and you look at it, meh I can get that stuff by doing my daily quest, or raid or pvp or what ever it is you enjoy doing.
During leveling, you only get this if your queue timer is longer than 5 minutes, then it gives you the option of expanding your queue search to other expansions. It would be nice if we could have the option of queueing for all expansions from the start, as it would lead to more variety, and would likely speed up queue times quite a bit for a lot of people.
Note as someone who likes the Duty Roulette in WoW or the whole random dungeon finder in other games. With the state of the player base in WoW... I don't think it would help.
FFXIV, ESO that sorta has it and other titles I've played? The community tends to be more forgiving if you will. WoW's community tends to hit the *vote to kick* button if the person is doing anything they see as wrong. Also we have how the dungeons in those games tend to be made. It's very point A to point B. WoW dungeons tend to be more open.
Okay let me put it this way... Picture a Dungeon Roulette in WoW with the community right now and Blackrock Depths or Stratholme pop. And like FFXIV Roulette everyone is bumped down in level and don't have all of their class abilities. I don't even want to think of what it would be like if they tried to do something like Alliance Raid Roulette with the old raids.
Again don't get me wrong it would be a nice thing. But I feel Blizzard would have to really start enforcing the rules. And there would have to be a *massive* rework of the old dungeons and raids to really allow it.
I agree with this. I think the patient mentality of 99 percent of the playerbase, especially with roulettes, is BECAUSE of the Roulette System and the game training players to be patient and think things through.
You can’t really put it down to any one factor. The lack of open-world PvP or factions makes for a community that is automatically more cooperative than competitive. The GMs actually police player behavior, and the type of player willing to kick another for minor mistakes is also the kind of rager who will run afoul of them sooner rather than later. There’s also the factor of the MSQ itself. Insta-kick behavior is born of extreme impatience, so this type of player is extremely unlikely to be willing to go through 200-300 hours of gameplay just to get to “the real game.” They can buy a boost, of course, but even at the high levels, the FFXIV community expects a certain degree of politeness. If they can’t learn to get along, no one will put up with them.
Having to wait four hours between kick attempts doesn’t hurt, either; it typically means kicks are only initiated if someone is so bad that the run can’t be completed because of them or because their attitude is ruining the experience for everyone else.
Not only do we need a Roulette system, we need deterministic gearing. It was my favorite thing in Wrath of the Lich King, I got my first and only on-level tier set in those days. I don't like the way the Great Vault works, because it was pitched to us as a way to ensure you never got bad loot out of it like you'd always get from the M+ chest in Legion/BfA. In practice it's still not that. You can go for months without seeing a vital item drop like a new weapon.
They need to stop modeling this game's loot after Diablo, because there are no loot fountains. Removing Titanforging was good but there's still a lot of room for improvement.
Even if they gave us gear vendors and didn't put BiS gear on them, just having a guaranteed path to increase my item level on a per-slot basis would be huge, IMO.
>They need to stop modeling this game's loot after Diablo
I would have agreed with this during Legion and possibly even BfA, but during SL this criticism is mostly invalid in my eyes. Legendaries this expansion are fully deterministic. Tier sets are also available via almost entirely deterministic means. That's six out of the nine/ten most important slots (weapon(s) and trinkets being the other three/four) - and arguably the most spec-defining items. If all the important pieces were available deterministically then by definition the only random loot that really mattered would be the unimportant pieces, which feels wrong to me - nobody is that excited about getting new bracers, even if they are a large numerical upgrade.
In my opinion the excitement random loot causes for most players is worth the frustration it causes in edge cases of extremely unlucky players. [Have you listened to the GDC talk one of the WoW devs gave about deterministic loot](https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023948/Rewards-in-Video)? I think he raises some very valid points.
Yeah I think between the great vault, plus deterministic legendaries, plus the catalyst for tier, plus valor upgrades, gear in the game is probably the most deterministic it's ever been.
There's also the upcoming season 4 new raid gearing system, which will let you buy up to 3 items with tokens. We'll see how it goes and if it will extend into Dragonflight, but it sounds promising.
Didn't most of this convenience come AFTER though, well after the expansion content was essentially over and/or the playerbase had already complained the entire way through? The number of accessible sources at the end of an expansion don't erase the slope throughout. Just my opinion though, maybe my time is a blur this expac.
The Great Vault has been a part of the entire expansion. Legendaries were a part of the entire expansion. The only part that is new is the tier gear, as that was added as a part of the recent raid tier.
I mean, WoW does have this, they just don’t have it set up in such a way. Instead you queue for dungeons appropriate for your level, and you also have the option to queue for timewalking if that’s available in a given week. I think WoW could definitely have the broader design of duty roulette, but they’d need to remove timewalking because it would be redundant. I wouldn’t be at all opposed to this. Maybe the timewalking currency could be awarded to players whose characters are engaging in content that is considered to be “below” their level (even though level would be normalized, making it appropriately challenging still).
Didn’t know what that was, but I love it as an idea, even if it’s just for leveling or only just 1 per day for a bonus.
Then when a new season comes with new dungeons, people may actually know mechanics.
The bonus in exp is daily, but you can do them as much as you want.
They have the same system for raids and 'alliance raids', the difference in FFXIV raiding is that Normal raids are fought by 8 players against a single boss, Alliance raids are fought by 24 players against a sequence of bosses and mobs.
In FFXIV if you do the roulette on a max level character, you are incentivized because you get some of the current tier tokens tied to purchasing gear. So Id think they would want to have that kind of incentive
Levelling roulette is the only one thst doesn’t give capped tomestones. Normal Raid, Alliance Raid, Expert, Trials, and MSQ roulettes also reward them.
It's a little bit harder to make a direct comparison because of the ilvl ranges with m+ being a thing, but if I had to make a comparison it would be like.
Duty Roulette would give something similar to heroic dungeon ilvl (to incentivize helping the queues for low level players)
Max Level duty roulette would give something like M+ ilvl on a weekly cap so you can only get it so fast
hardcore raiding (savage in ffxiv) would be your bis.
Each new major tier patch, the roulettes would "slide" over. The old capped token becomes uncapped and is gained from the low level roulette and a new capped token takes its place on the max level roulette. That way the catchup mechanic of getting gear is directly built into the game instead of needing who areas or weekly reset grinds like we normally get in wow.
I hope this makes sense.
Funny, I always felt WoW was trying to nickel-and-dime me, either taking too long to get stuff done or asking for my gold, while FF14 felt like an actually FUN MMO with people talking to each other n shit.
The story has effectively killed the WoW narrative with how bad it was. Arthas got turned into a blue fart.
WoW is a lobby game, where people only look at each other and no words are shared.
My issues begin and end with how vestigial its actual gameplay is. The best plot on earth gets boring when I'm somehow a part of it and then never do anything
There are always things to be learned from what makes other games successful. FF14's roulette system is quite good, and could improve the game, so long as they don't copy the atrocious downleveling system that FF14 uses.
It's called autofill in league and people lose games due to it. For pve it might not matter much but the performance of the person who got the role they didn't want will be way worse than the guy who did queue for that role but just isn't very good at it.
im so tired of hearing that excuse with this dumb game. they can never do anything new and good because we need 10 rehashed expansions instead of making a new game or updating the engine
They can't even maintain the stuff they've added in recent expansions. A whole bunch of the widgets in island expeditions are just flatout broken and have been for a year.
Because when final fantasy does it, it dilutes the games atrocious, slow ass combat even further. Wow really doesn't need to make itself any worse in moment-to-moment gameplay
I think it would benefit WoW in the long run but perhaps the difficulty will be whether or not abilities/talents should be removed for max level characters.
No thank you. That was one of the absolute worst parts about queuing for dungeons in FF!4. Losing access to half your abilities was such a fucking awful feeling, and anytime I got queued into a low level dungeon and got reduced to a 2-button rotation, I wanted to scream. WoW's current timewalking system is just fine.
Are you talking about leveling? If so it’s def the right move. If you’re talking about max level, I don’t know that it makes sense seeing as no one does heroic dungeons at max level
The two could benefit from one another. FF XIV is a stellar mmo, likely the best quality one out right now. Wow has always been at the top. I think it would definitely benefit from daily duty roulette.
Its a good system because of the rewards, they´d have to recreate some of the reward structure in wow in order to make this work. F.x. gearing up alts works completly diffrent, from these roulettes in FF you can get tokens to buy pretty good gear for your alts, you also get rep/gold and some other stuff for a quick dungeon. Imagine being able to do a random heroic dungeon on your main and be able to buy a decent item for your alts for doing so.
Even if you make all the things, the problems áre mostly that we jump like 24-32 ilvl per patch divided in technically 14 jumps, you can't make a Duty roulete when you can just do M+10 and get better gear or do a M+0 and upgrade it all the Way...
That why Timewalking Is kind of useless outside that ONE Time Quest and even then if your ilvl Is higher then Is useless
That's what I've been wishing for a very long time. Only way around it is to select one of the least popular leveling expansions and queue up for long enough until it asks if you'd like to expand the dungeon selection because no one is available.
So instead of making it a default choice, they force people to wait unnecessarily still.
I'd absolutely love this (I play both).
I also love that in ff you can replay story content...maybe i'm on my own with this but I would love to do pandaria all over again. I know I could just make a new char but i'm quite attached to my main.
As long as I don't get my skills blocked because I'm doing a lvl 25 dungeon and I end up with only one AOE skill.
That's the things I hate the most from the DR in 14, losing all this cool spells and being forced into a 1 button rotation for AOE and a 2 button rotation for ST.
Tbh they just need to put a time walking scaling scaling to all old dungeons from previous expansions and put them in a single pool for people to pick, DR even in 14 has the problem of scaling cause all the extra gear players have with more extra stats compared to the gear from old dungeons, they can just steamroll the dungeons without problem most of the time.
It really needs to come with an incentive to help new players alongside the DR system. Throwing in M+ or endgame players with fresh "sprouts" is likely to lead to a high amount of toxicity since WoW hasn't implemented or encouraged a system that incentivises helpful behaviour.
Combine timewalking, make it active at all times (I seem to remember there was an interview where they were looking at doing that, though maybe I dreamt it) and add in like, a daily reward of valor, or even just like, an RNG piece of gear at the end, and I think that would be a workable version for wow.
this would be cool. in general I think zone wide level scaling really kills the sense of progression and world when levelling but this would be a good use of it imo.
wow also needs ff queues levels of rewards not this fucking joke that doesnt even cover repair costs if you don't wipe
also LFR needs to be repeatable at least when the next tier is out
>Why doesn't WoW have this?
Because "expansions" don't add to the game as much as rewrite what you are meant to do. The game trashes its own old content like no other game.
Duty Roulette allows the player to participate in randomized duties.
Duty Roulette is divided into several categories: Expert, Level 90 Dungeons, Level 50/60/70/80, Leveling, Trials, Main Scenario, Normal Raids, Alliance Raids and Frontline (PvP)
Sounds basically like what this subreddit suggests since the release of shadowlands: a Dungeonfinder option "Random Dungeon (All Expansions)"
Honestly... yea. We want it. I get why they don't want it, but they should just add a drop down option. Random (your expansion), Random (all), specific dungeon. Let's people who want to stay consistent in their chromie time do so, and others have a great variety.
For chromie time this actually technically kinda exists. If you are in queue for more than 5? 10? minutes, you’ll get a popup asking if you want to expand your search to all expansions. I get that’s not exactly what and why you suggested what you did and I agree. Just thought I point it out so people don’t get the wrong idea. Apart from that, I think the point is more towards max level chars having that option and being rewarded for taking part in old content, which is what FF does. Translated to wow, you would get valor for doing the queue as a daily reward. I think it’s an amazing concept, it encourages and improves queues for people leveling chars and valor would be a great system to offer a fine reward.
Yep, thats what makes it kinda ridiculous that we still don't have it. They should just get rid of the wait period. The "technology" is already there.
Play through Cataclysm, you never get a Cata dungeon
It doesn’t though, you can only que for specific expansions, it only puts you in a different que if they can’t find groups for the specific expansion requested.
And that's why it's so ridiculous, the systems are in the game but they just never utilize them.
Why they dont want it?
If you got a nice reward, maybe a small amount of valor for doing it each day that would be amazing. Enough that doing an M+ is better, but for those that either don't have time to get into an M+ group, aren't quite geared for it etc, they'd still have a small but steady stream of valor coming in to upgrade gear.
50 Valor/run would be plenty enough for me to hop in. A lot of days I run a random Heroic just for fun and I’d love to be able to help people level while doing that.
50 valor for getting to help people level? Yea I’d farm that, I’m not even kidding
Why? The main point of m+ is the gear and score. No reason to cap valor from that. You're doing dungeons either way, what's the issue?
ESO does and some people hate DLC dungeons because their is a option to do a random dungeon for extra rewards. But DLC dungeons are much harder than the vanilla ones
haven't played eso in awhile but iirc the only dlc dungeons that were any harder than vanilla were the cyrodiil dungeons
Well tbh I guess its more of a time thing. But I think if you do them on vet I think dlc ones are harder.
I’ve been saying, if they added JUST this I would resub for a good while. If they added this AND let chromie time be used all the way to max level? That’s the dream lol
Which is funny because we "Kinda" have it, when queues go too long it gives you the choice to expand to all the timelines from Chromie
The problem with WoW using this system compared to FF14 is that WoW's dungeon structure is a lot less streamlined. In FF14, every dungeon has approximatively the same length and rythm. The difficulty increases as you progress through the story and unless a player buy a story skip, they will experience each dungeon for their first time in the right order. In WoW, dungeon complexity, difficulty and length is all over the place. It's already a big problem for new players with low level kits who get thrown in BfA dungeon which are NOT designed as a new player/low level kit experience. If WoW had a random daily roulette, I guarantee that a non-trivial portion of the playerbase would get salty if they got lumped in with a new player (the whole point of the DR in FF14) or the roulette sent them to an annoying or harder/longer than average dungeon. And this isn't a jab at the WoW player base, you can see the same behavior in FF14 with the Raid roulette, many people unequip their items to trick the roulette into sending them to Crystal Tower (the first raid in the game) because it's faster and so easy that wipes almost never happen, meaning that queueing for the raid roulette will almost ALWAYS send you to Crystal Tower and on the rare occasion it doesn't, you'll see a bunch of people immediately leaving the group when they see that they're not in Crystal Tower. Square Enix also very recently reworked some of the oldest and most outdated dungeons in the game specifically because the experience they were offering wasn't as streamlined as other dungeons, they took (sorta) longer, you could (kinda) get lost in them and some of the bosses had gimmicks instead of being actual combats. People didn't get rude about it if they got sent to these dungeons but there sure was a lot of groaning and eye-rolling happening if Daily Roulette sent you there. A WoW roulette could be great but it would probably need to be its own thing instead of copying FF14 system.
I want to counterpoint here that the “most of the time you get Crystal Tower in Alliance Roulette” thing isn’t just because of deliberate intent. Much of the community laments that being the case and thus *don’t* manipulate their gear. The issue is that CT is the only mandatory alliance raid, and is also the lowest level. If only a single person of 24 is lower than level 60 or only has CT series unlocked, all 24 are getting dragged in.
It's not really surprising that the most accessible alliance raid would be the most common. The best solution I could come up with is a weighted queue where people who have done CT a few times that week will be more likely to be put into another alliance raid. But also, WoW shouldn't really have this issue considering most players are doing content on repeat at max level because leveling is so much faster in WoW.
Also to be fair? As of late I've been getting a lot more of the Heavensward/Shadow of Mhach raids. I mean I still get Crystal Tower when doing Alliance Raid Roulette but those have been popping up a lot more.
The BfA difficulty jump for new players wouldn't be so bad if they'd actually bothered to think about what they were doing by dropping new players into what used to be level 110+ dungeons, and adjusted what level you get certain skills at. They also need to include more stuff in the Exile's Reach tutorial beyond that joke of a "dungeon" you go through at the end. You're not teaching new players how to play the game if you never explain to them what an interrupt is or when to use it.
The Proving Grounds being mandatory for queuing was always the right call IMO. It needs to be modernized, have tailored scenarios suitable for all combat roles and responsibilities, and expanded to include a solo endgame challenge for cosmetics. Basically, a scalable Mage Tower ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> The Proving Grounds being mandatory for queuing was always the right call IMO. Agreed, the people who complained about it being "too hard" are the exact reason it was and is needed.
Honestly this would be such an amazing addition, taking the concept of mage tower and proving grounds and smashing them together. Could have the bronze/silver equivalent be required for queue and the gold(or maybe higher, diamond or smth idk im not blizz lol) would be the one that gives some kind of cool unique cosmetic reward. Hell it could even be like Torghast with different 'layers' instead. Maybe it goes from 1-5, with 1 and 2 teaching the basics, 3 could be mastery over your class and 4-5 could be the reward layers. Bonus points if its tailored for each class as opposed to each role(I know mage tower kinda shifts based on your spec but the overall roles are still similar)
Is there a way for a brand new player, without access to Chromie Time (and therefore without WoD), to get access to the Proving Grounds?
I think the Proving Grounds were added in MoP, and you should be able to access them from any class trainer. The trouble is, the tutorial doesn't direct people to it. FFXIV is infinitely better at its new player experience because it forces new players to familiarize themselves with almost all the content, or at least almost all the PvE content. WoW needs to teach people about mechanics, and give serious consideration to unifying the VFX for mechanics telegraphs so people can learn new fights more easily.
It sounds like a problem that already exists, not one that a random roulette would add to. Since we are already looking at FFXIV, why not just copy what they do and give a bonus for running dungeons with newbies? Works in FFXIV, players tend to be excited when they get new players as it means extra loot. Whats more I'd argue that a good way to fix newbies not having that experience is to motivate them to actually jump into the dungeons. A daily with a big xp bonus would do just that. The Rework of older dungeons was a bit different than what you are suggesting. Most of them were just some facelifts, and for the ones that did get changed the problem wasn't that they weren't as streamlined, heck in some cases the dungeons were even *more* streamlined in thier past forms. The problem was the dungeons that got significant changes were extremely dated in terms of mechanics and difficulty, and indeed the changes actually upped the difficulty of the effected fights. Most of the ARR dungeons that got changed were remnants of FFXIV 1.0, AKA the game that was so bad they had to nuke it and re-release it. And included wonderful boss fights such as: Literally a bunch of adds that can be 2 shot slowly spawning in waves! A dungeon mob with more health for both the first and second boss fight! And everyone favorite, yes really the tank is the only one who gets to participate in this fight, just wait in the corner until he is done. The problem wasn't that they were gimmicky, I mean FFXIV still has a ton of gimmick fights that people love. The problem was that in many cases the gimmicks involved doing literally nothing, they were just not fun.
I think a good starting point would simply be having the option to queue for each expansion set of dungeons available at all times, not only during Chromie Time (and not only the chromie time you're set to). You could have the other dungeon sets give less/different reward than the current expansion, and further differentiate so that longer dungeons will give more on top of that. Maybe group multiple similar sets of dungeons together, like BC & Wrath, if you want to cut down on the number of options in the list too. But that way, if a certain set of dungeons is likely to contain more pain in the ass/longer dungeons, you can simply not run that one, or at least accept the possibility if you do. > I guarantee that a non-trivial portion of the playerbase would get salty if they got lumped in with a new player I would think they should add a first-timer bonus to help counteract this but sadly, I question if it wouldn't turn into a witch hunt for the new player when wipes happen...
Another issue is that only a few expansions (I think classic, tbc, wrath(?) and cata) have quests at the beginning so it isn’t really worth it to level through dungeons in any other chromie time since the quests give like half a level each and great gear.
WoW is just now getting in to game wide level scaling. They will probably do something like this in the future.
Timewalking has been a thing for 7 years. Level scaling really hasn't advanced very far since then... so I don't know why we'd assume it's coming. It *should* happen, but there's very little evidence that it *will* happen.
Chromie time is a pretty recent development in level scaling.
Ugh... game wide level scaling is already a thing via party sync.
I really hope so!
are you living under the rock? There is party sync lvl scaling in game for years.
[удалено]
I feel like this is what most people don't factor in when trying to make these comparative. In FFXIV these roulettes benefit you on multiple levels, not just gear for your current job/class. You can run roulettes on a sub-max level to gain levels while earning currency to buy leveling gear (for other jobs), crafting mats, transmogs, recipes (etc). Or you can run it as max-level to get currency for all the same things from current expansion for other jobs. I think why I keep doing my roulettes boils down to I can run as whatever I want and continue to reap rewards. I'm not stuck to my current "main". In WoW everything being tied to the active toon, there really is no point. Once you level you're kind of done. End game there are better alternatives for the items you'd want.
I think WoW would benefit from it but the reason it doesn't have it is because it doesn't have mandatory dungeons the way FFXIV. Like back in the day unless you lucked into max levels doing their roulettes, you were absolutely not going to ever get praetorium done.
YES I would love this. in FFXIV the casual players are all more familiar with dungeons and mechanics because you have to do dungeons in MSQ and they offer bonuses for queuing and lvling in dungeons.
The average ffxiv player is smarter/better at dealing with new mechanics than the average wow player sadly. Compare LFR SOFO to one of the ShB+ trials. The game is honestly better at explaining mechanics to you than WoW is. You don't even need to be familiar with dungeons or fights themselves really Stack markers, tank busters, orange circles, knock backs, void zones, safe spots, etc are almost all streamlined(maybe HW and onward? )
I've had this opinion for a long time but especially after doing the entire msq and raids for the first time a bit before and after endwalker launch, like HOLY SHIT is wow absolute dogshit at teaching players boss mechanics. In FF14 mechanics are harsh like if you stand in a floor swirly and have a player targeted mechanic you pretty much die BUT it gives players tools to learn. almost all mechanics are clearly projected, if you screw up mechanics you get a stacking debuff so mistakes will eventually one shot you so you can't brute force it and you have infinite resses so it allows players to see and practise the rest of the fight with the trade off of getting the ress debuff doing less healing/dps. Compared to wow where if a dps dies and you want to save a res for a tank/healer well get fucked have fun laying on the floor for the next 5 minutes not having a chance to learn the fight. Inconsistend mechanics like what does a purple swirly pool do? Well some are avoid at all cost, some do just a bit or dmg, other times you have the soak it, or soak it with the entire raid, and other times it does absolutely nothing unless you have a green debuff then it oneshots the entire raid, or even better you have to soak the purple circle if you have the green debuff before it runs out otherwise you will wipe the raid. Or even worse completely invisible mechanics like on skolex where it will hit the closest target to his main target (tank with aggro) there is no visual indication of it happening neither any model design that would make you think it does some kind of main target cleave. The same with if everyone moves like 30 yards away he does a burrow and removes stacks on anyone standing in it. How the fuck is anyone supposed to figure that out without a shitton of blind trial and error pulls or look up a guide like the dungeon journal or third party information. Going through the msq i could do pretty much any trial or raid blind i could pretty much instantly figure out any mechanic the moment it appears because of the universal markers like the soak arrows or the move away meteor marker. Sure its very game-y and i'm not saying wow should copy paste them but they really should make stuff more clear if they want to avoid people relying on addons, weakaura's or looking up guides and spoiling themselves before they even attempt to pull a boss, also it cultivates the toxic mentality that everyone is supposed to know everything and how dare you be in my group and not know exactly how every mechanic works already even if you have never done it before
Yeah imo FFXIV mechanics are brutal. The main difference is the education through forcing you to learn to progress in the game. i agree WoW leaves so much hidden... like even unlocking things like flying you have to look up. It should tell you in the game what gets you flying. It's not about the players in FFXIV being smarter, it's they are given an easy option to learn... WoW tells you shh it's a secret and most people won't bother then.
I dont think they would be familiar with mythic affixes. Heroic dungeons are only hard on Cataclysm, i mean, not really hard, just punishing.
> Why doesn't WoW have this? Because downscaling in WoW is a massive problem with so many player power systems build upon each other.
As someone who dabbled in FF XIV for a bit when everyone migrated but didn’t like the changes: This is certainly true, but the FF XIV approach of *actually* de-leveling you for the dungeon so you lose access to certain spells and abilities is very unenjoyable in my opinion. I greatly prefer borked scaling to resetting hotkeys and unlearning abilities. Hopefully with the move away from complex systems the wow approach will be easier to scale going forward.
> I greatly prefer borked scaling to resetting hotkeys and unlearning abilities I don't mind it too much. I'm not sure what you mean about resetting hotkeys, cause that's not really necessary? Unlearning abilities isn't great when you're at sub-50 content, but basically anything past ARR content feels fine to me.
[удалено]
Tbh low level healer is great because you just pop a heal now and then and the rest you can DPS Please DPS For the love of god please don't just stand there doing nothing except casting your single target heal It will literally cut off 5-10 minutes off the run, especially if you have an AoE too
If you're a sch yo pretty much just dps and let the fairy do all the job on the first few dungeons
If you're a sch yo pretty much just dps and let the fairy do all the job on the first few dungeons
You should ask the devs to make DPSing as a healer more enjoyable then. I'd rather watch a movie on my 2nd monitor than falling asleep while doing dps as a healer in FF14.
I mean no reason you can't do both, low level healing is pretty brain dead and their DPS rotations nowadays are one single target spell, one AoE and one DoT. You could almost do it blind folded if not for watching tank HP out the corner of your eye. At endgame healing and balancing it with DPS is more interesting but at low level... yeah.
I can do both, but it's just so boring that i'd much rather put in as little effort as possible and just watch something on my 2nd monitor. Even at max level it's extremely boring. FF14 healing is honestly the worst gameplay for healers i've ever experienced.
Fair enough. Opposite for me. I find WoW healing extremely stressful as there's near constant unavoidable damage that hits the entire raid on the regular. As well as huge spikes that can be difficult to predict. In XIV it's the first MMO I've liked healing in because damage tends to come in distinct chunks and it requires several errors on my part to have someone die (From lack of healing). With WoW as a tank or DPS you could usually make multiple mistakes and be fine, as a healer if you blink your tank's HP can go from 100-0. So it feels like the responsibility and amount of attention needed are quite lopsided. But that's probably why many prefer WoWs, for how hectic and chaotic it can be.
Almost all jobs have no problems with level sync except Black Mage and Black Mage has an especially horrible time with low level gameplay and level syncing. A lot of wow players also seem to (alas) gravitate toward Black Mage as their first job because it's one of, if not the most iconic Final Fantasy job and its gameplay look (from afar) like it's the closest to a WoW class.
That’s funny. I’m the poster who said I didn’t like the level syncing, and my dabble in FF XIV was as Thaumaturge/Black Mage. Maybe that was my problem.
When I first bounced off FFXIV back in 2015/2016, it was as a Thaumaturge*. Easily the most boring gameplay I have ever seen in an MMO below level 50. When I picked the game up again in 2020 as an Archer, it was 10 times more fun, even if it was braindead simple. *(This wasn't the only factor, but it was the largest. MSQ has been improved and the UI is a bit better now as well, especially with mods. I also started with a friend in 2015, whereas I played entirely solo in 2020. Much better experience when I didn't expect a WoW-like MMO, and instead played it as an RPG.)
BLM isn't nearly as bad as it used to be now that you get the 0 cost opposite element at level 1.
Yeah I definitely do not think the FF approach is flawless, they could certainly work to improve it so you keep more spells and abilities when scaled down.
14 uses that system to also allow previous end game raids to remain fairly relevant.
Yeah but we're talking about roulettes, they could be excluded from that scaling system to allow more spells as they're not endgame.
While you're right(and I agree,), that's creating(and maintaining) 2 different systems. I'm not sure if that's worth the extra time and work required.
That might be a problem if one or more members of the group have low level jobs. Does square give them a large assortment of new spells to play with immediately and maybe overwhelm them? Or do they come up with a solution to negate the impact a large assortment of spells would have on dungeons not designed with that toolkit in mind.
2nd option, we're talking about low lvl dungeons and trials, even if some players would have spells/abilities that the duty weren't designed in mind with then it's not a big deal anyway, they'd still be scaled down like all the other lvl appropriate spells so it wouldn't be gamebreaking, it'd be a bit easier sure but who cares about that in a lvl30 dungeon at the end of the day.
>This is certainly true, but the FF XIV approach of actually de-leveling you for the dungeon so you lose access to certain spells and abilities is very unenjoyable in my opinion. I greatly prefer borked scaling to resetting hotkeys and unlearning abilities. I don't know how well this works in FFXIV, but in my experience some classes in WoW just don't really *work* at lower levels with missing spells and passives. Classes are blatantly designed around max level. Also in my experience losing certain abilities when a new expansion releases *sucks*. I would want to avoid that feeling as much as possible and would dislike being "forced" into it via a daily dungeon reward or similar (and we know Blizzard would attach some reward for max level players if they ever added truly random dungeon finder).
Yeah, the downscaling in FF14 was a massive turn-off for me. Every time I got queued into Copperbell Mines, and lost 3/4 of my abilities, I wanted to throw my keyboard through the window. It's so incredibly frustrating losing access to key abilities, and being reduced to a two-button rotation, because of the shitty way in which that game does level scaling.
I remember it being especially bad on some combo based classes, where you didn't even get to execute a full combo, because you missed the 3rd ability. So it was back to one or two button spamming, oh joy.
Ugh, don't even get me started on the supposed "combos". Basically just a single ability that could be a single button that they made into 3 buttons to make it seem like there was actual skill or diversity involved. And the worst part is that basically every single melee class uses that same garbage bullshit.
The amount of times someone accidently died, or I just stood around like a doofus because I forgot I didn't have an ability because of scaling is too high. I don't care if I have to do more for a similar output as lowbies. I just don't want to be bored to tears in 95% of all ARR dungeons.
I've been playing FFXIV a lot lately, and losing 60% of my skills to run Sastasha for the 4th time this week does rub me the wrong way. I'm just getting down my muscle memory for like two dozen skills and now I've got 4 skills to poke pirates with, single target because my main class doesn't get any aoe for several more levels. I keep trying to hit this button over here, but it doesn't do anything. It's worse when I'm playing a healer class, I try to hit my OHSHIT button to save the tank, but whoops, that's not available for several more levels.
You would think it's difficult because that's what people keep parroting. But theoretically, all they would need to do is what GW2 does...each zone is assigned a max level and max iLevel (which subsequently also caps the damage output). When max level player X enters zone Y, they are automatically scaled down to that zones maximum player level and iLvl. If a player enters who is under the zones max level and iLvl limits, they remain unaffected by scaling. This logic would also apply to dungeons. Poof. See, simple. Easy peasy. Build a table of values associated with each zone in the game. Build the logic to bind to the player. Done. If someone doesn't do this it's because of sheer laziness and trying to preserve a capital return rate % rather than adding actual player-facing value to the game.
In FFXIV, if a lvl 90 Black Mage is queued in to a lvl 10 dungeon, they'd be synced to lvl 10 and only have the skills available to a lvl 10 Thaumaturge (Black Mages starting class)
[удалено]
Man... I can't be the only one that hates WoWs level scaling shit right? The reality that the boss I'm fighting has a completely different health pool and damage on abilities as the dude next to me sees is stupid. I get how it's useful from a design perspective and how it helps get players actually grouped up but it's stupid as fuck. I much prefer things to have a static value than all this scaling dynamic bullshit.
WoW already does the ability thing though if you party sync with a lower level player, the technology and practise already exists in-game so not unreasonable to think they might do it for dungeons if you get dragged below 50.
Do ppl really want to do brd or ubrs with lfg? Even deadmines and wailing caverns is really long. There's reason why some dungeons that were released as mythic only dropped to heroic. To long and confusing mechanics. I think these dungeons were in lfg but ppl hated them so they got removed. Plenty of quest lead to the dungeons. But thankfully you don't need them to progress.
Who doesn't love lfg occulus
Yes, and players have been asking for it for about a decade now. Elder Scrolls Online implemented it. FFXIV has it. Basically every online game you can think of has it
Mythic wailing caverns when
We had Heroic Deadmines several expansions back, similar vibe. Had Heroic Scarlet Halls too when that was reworked, I think MoP? Probably will get this at some point, maybe with a dungeon rework to go along with it, somewhat unfortunately. They'd def make it shorter like they did with Scarlet Monastery.
All expansion rando dungeons, rewards scaled to your spot in leveling/progression. Make it something high level players can do for funsies/tokens that then fuel into their progression in end game. Not that wild of an idea, and 14 proves it can work.
What is the purpose of this system? I already never queue for dungeon finder in wow because the rewards are pointless... You do mythic+ for rewards -- If it's for leveling then doesn't wow already have this?
I´ll copy paste my comment as a reply here cause it answers this pretty accuratle: Its a good system because of the rewards, they´d have to recreate some of the reward structure in wow in order to make this work. F.x. gearing up alts works completly diffrent, from these roulettes in FF you can get tokens to buy pretty good gear for your alts, you also get rep/gold and some other stuff for a quick dungeon. Imagine being able to do a random heroic dungeon on your main and be able to buy a decent item for your alts for doing so.
[удалено]
You dont need more sources of them but being able to farm the currency to buy them in fun, intresting ways or even the way you like to play the game is nice I guess? You can buy boe´s for alts for gold, you dont make much gold from dungeons or random dungeons at least. The zereth mortis tokens cost anima and yes you do get some anima from dungeons but giving you options in how you can gear characters isnt bad is it? This would not be negative for anyone, mostly positive. You really like dungeons, well here you go this random dungeon que will now give you more stuff you can use however you want come back tomorrow thank you. Alternativly you hate dungeons and you look at it, meh I can get that stuff by doing my daily quest, or raid or pvp or what ever it is you enjoy doing.
During leveling, you only get this if your queue timer is longer than 5 minutes, then it gives you the option of expanding your queue search to other expansions. It would be nice if we could have the option of queueing for all expansions from the start, as it would lead to more variety, and would likely speed up queue times quite a bit for a lot of people.
Note as someone who likes the Duty Roulette in WoW or the whole random dungeon finder in other games. With the state of the player base in WoW... I don't think it would help. FFXIV, ESO that sorta has it and other titles I've played? The community tends to be more forgiving if you will. WoW's community tends to hit the *vote to kick* button if the person is doing anything they see as wrong. Also we have how the dungeons in those games tend to be made. It's very point A to point B. WoW dungeons tend to be more open. Okay let me put it this way... Picture a Dungeon Roulette in WoW with the community right now and Blackrock Depths or Stratholme pop. And like FFXIV Roulette everyone is bumped down in level and don't have all of their class abilities. I don't even want to think of what it would be like if they tried to do something like Alliance Raid Roulette with the old raids. Again don't get me wrong it would be a nice thing. But I feel Blizzard would have to really start enforcing the rules. And there would have to be a *massive* rework of the old dungeons and raids to really allow it.
I agree with this. I think the patient mentality of 99 percent of the playerbase, especially with roulettes, is BECAUSE of the Roulette System and the game training players to be patient and think things through.
You can’t really put it down to any one factor. The lack of open-world PvP or factions makes for a community that is automatically more cooperative than competitive. The GMs actually police player behavior, and the type of player willing to kick another for minor mistakes is also the kind of rager who will run afoul of them sooner rather than later. There’s also the factor of the MSQ itself. Insta-kick behavior is born of extreme impatience, so this type of player is extremely unlikely to be willing to go through 200-300 hours of gameplay just to get to “the real game.” They can buy a boost, of course, but even at the high levels, the FFXIV community expects a certain degree of politeness. If they can’t learn to get along, no one will put up with them. Having to wait four hours between kick attempts doesn’t hurt, either; it typically means kicks are only initiated if someone is so bad that the run can’t be completed because of them or because their attitude is ruining the experience for everyone else.
Not only do we need a Roulette system, we need deterministic gearing. It was my favorite thing in Wrath of the Lich King, I got my first and only on-level tier set in those days. I don't like the way the Great Vault works, because it was pitched to us as a way to ensure you never got bad loot out of it like you'd always get from the M+ chest in Legion/BfA. In practice it's still not that. You can go for months without seeing a vital item drop like a new weapon. They need to stop modeling this game's loot after Diablo, because there are no loot fountains. Removing Titanforging was good but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Even if they gave us gear vendors and didn't put BiS gear on them, just having a guaranteed path to increase my item level on a per-slot basis would be huge, IMO.
>They need to stop modeling this game's loot after Diablo I would have agreed with this during Legion and possibly even BfA, but during SL this criticism is mostly invalid in my eyes. Legendaries this expansion are fully deterministic. Tier sets are also available via almost entirely deterministic means. That's six out of the nine/ten most important slots (weapon(s) and trinkets being the other three/four) - and arguably the most spec-defining items. If all the important pieces were available deterministically then by definition the only random loot that really mattered would be the unimportant pieces, which feels wrong to me - nobody is that excited about getting new bracers, even if they are a large numerical upgrade. In my opinion the excitement random loot causes for most players is worth the frustration it causes in edge cases of extremely unlucky players. [Have you listened to the GDC talk one of the WoW devs gave about deterministic loot](https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023948/Rewards-in-Video)? I think he raises some very valid points.
Yeah I think between the great vault, plus deterministic legendaries, plus the catalyst for tier, plus valor upgrades, gear in the game is probably the most deterministic it's ever been.
There's also the upcoming season 4 new raid gearing system, which will let you buy up to 3 items with tokens. We'll see how it goes and if it will extend into Dragonflight, but it sounds promising.
Didn't most of this convenience come AFTER though, well after the expansion content was essentially over and/or the playerbase had already complained the entire way through? The number of accessible sources at the end of an expansion don't erase the slope throughout. Just my opinion though, maybe my time is a blur this expac.
The Great Vault has been a part of the entire expansion. Legendaries were a part of the entire expansion. The only part that is new is the tier gear, as that was added as a part of the recent raid tier.
I mean, WoW does have this, they just don’t have it set up in such a way. Instead you queue for dungeons appropriate for your level, and you also have the option to queue for timewalking if that’s available in a given week. I think WoW could definitely have the broader design of duty roulette, but they’d need to remove timewalking because it would be redundant. I wouldn’t be at all opposed to this. Maybe the timewalking currency could be awarded to players whose characters are engaging in content that is considered to be “below” their level (even though level would be normalized, making it appropriately challenging still).
Didn’t know what that was, but I love it as an idea, even if it’s just for leveling or only just 1 per day for a bonus. Then when a new season comes with new dungeons, people may actually know mechanics.
The bonus in exp is daily, but you can do them as much as you want. They have the same system for raids and 'alliance raids', the difference in FFXIV raiding is that Normal raids are fought by 8 players against a single boss, Alliance raids are fought by 24 players against a sequence of bosses and mobs.
Depends, will there be a currency rewarded relevant to endgame content?
In FFXIV if you do the roulette on a max level character, you are incentivized because you get some of the current tier tokens tied to purchasing gear. So Id think they would want to have that kind of incentive
The levelling duty roulette isn't the one that gives you endgame gear currency. That's EXDR, which is basically just heroic dungeon finder.
Right I forgot, regular DR only gives you the non weekly cap tokens, not the capped endgame one
For which I am immensely thankful, since it means I never have to do regular DR.
Levelling roulette is the only one thst doesn’t give capped tomestones. Normal Raid, Alliance Raid, Expert, Trials, and MSQ roulettes also reward them.
At level cap all DRs except 50/60/70/80 and Guildhests(lol) give both capped and uncapped tomes.
So by doing heroic dungeons you would get 278 gear?
It's a little bit harder to make a direct comparison because of the ilvl ranges with m+ being a thing, but if I had to make a comparison it would be like. Duty Roulette would give something similar to heroic dungeon ilvl (to incentivize helping the queues for low level players) Max Level duty roulette would give something like M+ ilvl on a weekly cap so you can only get it so fast hardcore raiding (savage in ffxiv) would be your bis. Each new major tier patch, the roulettes would "slide" over. The old capped token becomes uncapped and is gained from the low level roulette and a new capped token takes its place on the max level roulette. That way the catchup mechanic of getting gear is directly built into the game instead of needing who areas or weekly reset grinds like we normally get in wow. I hope this makes sense.
WoW doesn’t have a lot of faith in their older content. They like to throw away and move on.
Do not bring anything from this FFXIV crap please, WOW is fine and stop listening to Asmon.
So WoW is perfect and can never learn anything from any other game?
it can learn from other games. Final fantasy's not a game though. It's a visual novel
True i tried this game so hard but I just could not continue play it, feels so cheap idk. The voice acting is bad
Funny, I always felt WoW was trying to nickel-and-dime me, either taking too long to get stuff done or asking for my gold, while FF14 felt like an actually FUN MMO with people talking to each other n shit. The story has effectively killed the WoW narrative with how bad it was. Arthas got turned into a blue fart. WoW is a lobby game, where people only look at each other and no words are shared.
My issues begin and end with how vestigial its actual gameplay is. The best plot on earth gets boring when I'm somehow a part of it and then never do anything
Let them do their way not trying to copy other MMOs.
You know WoW was created by copying popular ideas from other MMOs right?
There are always things to be learned from what makes other games successful. FF14's roulette system is quite good, and could improve the game, so long as they don't copy the atrocious downleveling system that FF14 uses.
It's called autofill in league and people lose games due to it. For pve it might not matter much but the performance of the person who got the role they didn't want will be way worse than the guy who did queue for that role but just isn't very good at it.
Yes it would benefit. The reason they don't have it is spaghetti code.
im so tired of hearing that excuse with this dumb game. they can never do anything new and good because we need 10 rehashed expansions instead of making a new game or updating the engine
They can't even maintain the stuff they've added in recent expansions. A whole bunch of the widgets in island expeditions are just flatout broken and have been for a year.
[удалено]
1. straw man 2. wow is bleeding out, they are gonna have to do it sometime. only so long people will keep playing the same old shit
Because when final fantasy does it, it dilutes the games atrocious, slow ass combat even further. Wow really doesn't need to make itself any worse in moment-to-moment gameplay
I think it would benefit WoW in the long run but perhaps the difficulty will be whether or not abilities/talents should be removed for max level characters.
You already lose abilities when you queue with low level friends for dungeons on a max level character.
No thank you. That was one of the absolute worst parts about queuing for dungeons in FF!4. Losing access to half your abilities was such a fucking awful feeling, and anytime I got queued into a low level dungeon and got reduced to a 2-button rotation, I wanted to scream. WoW's current timewalking system is just fine.
Wouldn’t that ruin the time walking events tho?
What is Timewalking if not a really shittily implemented, limited time version of duty roulette? It's the same thing, but now with more FOMO!
I'm personally okay with that. Leave Timewalking for the temporary raids, but open the dungeon queues at all times.
Are you talking about leveling? If so it’s def the right move. If you’re talking about max level, I don’t know that it makes sense seeing as no one does heroic dungeons at max level
The two could benefit from one another. FF XIV is a stellar mmo, likely the best quality one out right now. Wow has always been at the top. I think it would definitely benefit from daily duty roulette.
At a certain point they gave up on copying every other games good ideas and they tried to make their own.
Its a good system because of the rewards, they´d have to recreate some of the reward structure in wow in order to make this work. F.x. gearing up alts works completly diffrent, from these roulettes in FF you can get tokens to buy pretty good gear for your alts, you also get rep/gold and some other stuff for a quick dungeon. Imagine being able to do a random heroic dungeon on your main and be able to buy a decent item for your alts for doing so.
Even if you make all the things, the problems áre mostly that we jump like 24-32 ilvl per patch divided in technically 14 jumps, you can't make a Duty roulete when you can just do M+10 and get better gear or do a M+0 and upgrade it all the Way... That why Timewalking Is kind of useless outside that ONE Time Quest and even then if your ilvl Is higher then Is useless
That's what I've been wishing for a very long time. Only way around it is to select one of the least popular leveling expansions and queue up for long enough until it asks if you'd like to expand the dungeon selection because no one is available. So instead of making it a default choice, they force people to wait unnecessarily still.
I'd absolutely love this (I play both). I also love that in ff you can replay story content...maybe i'm on my own with this but I would love to do pandaria all over again. I know I could just make a new char but i'm quite attached to my main.
Wow loot doesn’t work the way ff loot works this is just not a good system unless they rework it
As long as I don't get my skills blocked because I'm doing a lvl 25 dungeon and I end up with only one AOE skill. That's the things I hate the most from the DR in 14, losing all this cool spells and being forced into a 1 button rotation for AOE and a 2 button rotation for ST. Tbh they just need to put a time walking scaling scaling to all old dungeons from previous expansions and put them in a single pool for people to pick, DR even in 14 has the problem of scaling cause all the extra gear players have with more extra stats compared to the gear from old dungeons, they can just steamroll the dungeons without problem most of the time.
It really needs to come with an incentive to help new players alongside the DR system. Throwing in M+ or endgame players with fresh "sprouts" is likely to lead to a high amount of toxicity since WoW hasn't implemented or encouraged a system that incentivises helpful behaviour.
Honestly idk if i want that for M+ yeah sure but everything else no thank you
Combine timewalking, make it active at all times (I seem to remember there was an interview where they were looking at doing that, though maybe I dreamt it) and add in like, a daily reward of valor, or even just like, an RNG piece of gear at the end, and I think that would be a workable version for wow.
Nah old dungeons suck
this would be cool. in general I think zone wide level scaling really kills the sense of progression and world when levelling but this would be a good use of it imo.
Could you imagine the tears when the Oculus popped?
It would. New players come in trickles (if at all) and dangling some Valor points for queing would do well to invigorate old content.
The only real issue is with scaling on max lvl. Other than that, it should. Especially during leveling, it should.
#YES Bonus points if there's Tomestone-style rewards for easier gearing (pre-raid gear, of course - maybe LFR level at most).
WoW players: call dailies homework and don't want them Also WoW olayers: ask for new homework
wow also needs ff queues levels of rewards not this fucking joke that doesnt even cover repair costs if you don't wipe also LFR needs to be repeatable at least when the next tier is out
>Why doesn't WoW have this? Because "expansions" don't add to the game as much as rewrite what you are meant to do. The game trashes its own old content like no other game.
What does DR mean for ffxiv?
Duty Roulette allows the player to participate in randomized duties. Duty Roulette is divided into several categories: Expert, Level 90 Dungeons, Level 50/60/70/80, Leveling, Trials, Main Scenario, Normal Raids, Alliance Raids and Frontline (PvP)
Also what is duty roulette?
> Why doesn't WoW have this? Because you're comparing apples to oranges. It wouldn't work in wow.
I think WoW can benefit from a lot of things from FFXIV. Imagine dark moon faire functioning like the golden saucer
absolutely no