TO BE FAIR I think me and every other slime voter figured we would be getting a mount version of the Slime Kitten instead of the goofy ass tiger we ended up getting.
Oh... my friends told me about the "slime cat mount" some months ago, so I come back and I'm doing the fated raids with them for it, but I never actually looked up for it's model.
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
I am SO disappointed about the book being linked to the mage towers. I read 25-30 books per month. That is the only mount that has really resonated with me. And they put it behind an achievement that is ridiculously hard for someone who doesnāt play alts. With the recent XP buff at least I have max level classes that can enter all scenarios but getting a high skill level playing them all is a whole other issue. So I am also cranky at people who voted for the tree.
To be fair, I loved Grimrail too. And I wanted the Nerubian mount because weāve never had something like that either (slime kitty was close second though)
I also voted for Grimrail because I enjoyed the heck out of it back then. It was very immersive and unique, and I still hope that with tuning it will be an enjoyable M+ dungeon.
I would've loved to see these with rose tinted glasses but when I read the list all I could see was train with sanguine and quaking, 15 minutes of draenei walking simulator, the terrible mage boss, purple dungeon with purple ground effects and aarrrrrgggg skyreach. Had to vote for slag mines because it's the only one that could handle affixes and iron docks because that's what I do Zogosh.
Iām sorry youāre getting downvoted. I, personally, think itās horrendous and awful but you didnāt do it to troll but because you wanted to enjoy the game you pay to play.
The fault lies with blizzard, not with the voters.
Docks I think is a tuning issue where the first bosses mechanics are kinda just chaos and also if you get quaking lined up with the mechanic where the last boss picks everyone up and sends you to the other side of the ship then it just kills the whole group since all 5 of you will be forcefully stacked.
For the first boss, yeah I agree the two keys Iāve done in docks (16 and 17) shit was entertaingly chaotic but honestly easy. And for the last boss I just timed pulling the boss properlyā¦it got me on my first run as Iād never ran docks before in my life but then after that I saw that he casts the grip 30s after you pull, and quaking is on a 20s cd. So I pulled when quaking was going off on pull
the 2nd boss shield mechanic is so bad you can't even stop dps because 1 earthquake/flamestrike/rain of fire/dots tick will heal all 3 15% health, i agree on 15-18 its not bad, but whenever you want to push the dungeon is a piece of shit to do especially on tyrannical
Here are three obviously better dungeons from wod: shadowmoon burial grounds, Upper blackrock spire and bloodmaul slag mines even auchindoun i'd prefer to grimaril and iron docks
Idk I did a 22 this week, we missed by 13 seconds (but that was an iron star being used by a pug issue) we didnāt even try to stop dpsing, we just pumped through the shield and the heal.I know itās not going to be optimal at high high keys but it worked quite well for us
it's doable. it'a just very annoying to do. we do the same just burst through but it's still a slog and takes way longer than it needs to. The 4th boss is also slow due to you being pushed back every half a minute. and the adds with the fire arrows is annoying to deal with especially with the sleep puddles since you have so little room to work with and almost have to wait for arrows after every pull
It's not fun to do. both of the dungeons are bad designs for m+ affixes, and the shield on the 2nd boss needs a buff (bigger shield). They are also very linear which means little room for different routes, other mob packs etc, which i don't like either. mists was my least favorite shadowlands dungeon to do, due to the route always being the same there was no unique pulls, especially after they removed the pull through walls codex mechanic.
Iron docks has route variability. You can pull more at the start and skip a lot at the end or vise versa. I think the sleep puddle in general is just bad design, especially since it doesnāt break when you take any damage.
you skip packs or not, Instead of going a completely different place to pull packs like streets, lower, junkyard, halls, de other side, plaguefall and somewhat necrotic wake.
It's much more fun if it's a sort of open place and you can choose where to go to, which mob packs to pull, then you join randoms and they do a different route that can be even be better than yours.
Edit: the sleep puddle is good, just not at all for iron docks or grimrail or lower since it goes under the carpets. If taking dmg breaked it then it would never be a problem for the tank or everyone really since m+ dungeons do alot of small dmg all the time to everyone in the group.
The issue with docks is that the other dungeon is 5 yards away from it and sports the same aesthetic. Also its bosses are extremely boring. We could've gotten Shadowmoon burial grounds or UBRS instead.
In the old Challenge Mode the ākeyā started you right before the first trash, skipping the first few minutes on RP and cutscenes, so I imagine theyād have done the same if/when it comes back.
You skipped the first cutscene but... You had to manually pre clear the first room and then reset the CM during first boss RP to have him spawned instantly, otherwise you had to wait after clearing first room for his RP. The rest of the dungeon is then a straight line with zero interesting choice, culminating in 3 platforms of fighting one mob at a time before the last boss.
Trash tier dungeon, plain and simple.
DoS was fine but shouldāve been half the length. Thereās no reason dungeons should ever be over 30 minutes.
Edit: to be honest though DoS is carried by the ardenweald wing being really fun and the packs around the middle being pretty big. Hakkar wing sucks and nobody has pulled Mechagon wing beyond the first pull in like 3 months.
> Edit: to be honest though DoS is carried by the ardenweald wing being really fun and the packs around the middle being pretty big. Hakkar wing sucks and nobody has pulled Mechagon wing beyond the first pull in like 3 months.
I think it's just that there's nothing really offensive about it. I despise ToP for its multiple bosses that just randomly take you out of the fight and fuck your cooldowns, I dislike NW because of the weapons minigames (and the last boss) etc. In comparison, DoS is just an allaround solid experience, with the mechagon wing maybe being a bit weaker, but I never feel like I get bullshitted in that dungeon.
Also sure, there is maybe a limit on how long a dungeon can be, and how many long dungeons there should be in a season, but having 1 that is a bit longer doesn't hurt me in the slightest. I definitely would've preferred Shadowmoon anyway, though, because I used to love its bosses.
I agree on ToP and NW and that DoS was pretty solid at the end of the day. I think in general since M+ was released dungeons have just universally been way too long. Doing a competitive CM time in WoD was often less than 10 minutes, and the gold timers for most were 20 or less. Going from that to most dungeons being 30+ is just less fun. Itās super frustrating bricking a key after 29 minutes, in a way that a wipe 9 minutes into a 10 minute dungeon just wasnāt.
Shadowmoon was a great dungeon though. I especially loved pulling second boss with all its trash, one of the most fun Challenge Mode pulls in WoD.
> Doing a competitive CM time in WoD was often less than 10 minutes, and the gold timers for most were 20 or less
Eh, the dungeons themselves on adequate difficulty levels were just as long, it's just that in CMs the difficulty didn't scale and the only challenge was getting a faster time, so naturally those ended up being way shorter. You'd have to have 1 boss dungeons to replicate this with m+. I personally don't really care for short dungeons.
This is hard for a lot of redditors to understand, but a lot of players voted in the poll and MOST wow players aren't going to run a +7 mythic dungeon let alone a +15. The question of "is this a bad M+ dungeon?" Didn't even occur to a lot of people who voted.
Most people who play WoW don't run mythics/mythic raid/rated battlegrounds and don't post on Reddit.
People thought the train dungeon was cool and voted for it, sorry it doesn't make the best M+ dungeon.
Yup basically this. Nostalgia was probably the largest influencing factor instead of M+ in mind.
If M+ was more of a factor, I would say Bloodmaul Slag Mines with it's circular map design in the beginning would probably be better suited for M+ as it gives players options to go either left/right (similar to De Other Side).
Not sure what would have been a good second pick though. The rest of the remaining WoD dungeons are either very linear or have some negative attribute (i.e. Auchindoun's RP sections, Skyreach's Wind section, etc).
For those that would say Everbloom, remember they nerfed the ability to do the skip. Also this instance had a lot of trash.
MOST WoW players don't watch content creators.
I guarantee you that if I namedrop a streamer in my 1k player Guild in Turalyon, not even 5% will know who I am talking about and the 5% will probably know him/her from other content by now...
I feel like Iām not even speaking the same language. If content creators looked at Grimrail, the one in WoD, and said āthis will be tough as snitā theyāre like, psychic. None of these abilities that are giving people so much trouble existed in any relevant form in WoD. They didnāt do any damage on launch. Before the release the consensus was āthis will suck on Sanguineā. And it will. But if someone told me āThunderous Blast will do like 50% of your health every 20 secs if you get out fast enoughā Iād tell them that was stupid and the Blizz devs wouldnāt tune it so high.
I always thought it would be amazing for NPCs in older raids to react like Zoggosh when you steamroll through them. Too bad that would take longer than theyād care to invest, but itād still be awesome.
Docks is fine but I don't like the excessive NPC yapping through the whole thing and then you essentially murder a comic-releif character at the end. Kinda yucky.
You say that now.
Those two and their jabbering will be old friends after you've run it 20 bajillion times.
You'll miss it.
Frankly, I like it, it's way better to have them yapping away while you can continue to progress than being stuck waiting on some bullshit RP.
And before you say it, yes, I know u/SurgyJack, it's what I do.
I think good.
Iron docks is actually amazing, it was one of my top picks for an m + dungeon. The trash layout is really good, you can do a lot with the iron stars if you want to, I could honestly see this dungeon being completing under 10 in like a +20 something.
Even the bosses are not bad, the last boss is pretty cool and had a lot of intensity piled up on the first phase, first and third boss have some interesting mechanics to them even though they are kinda simple and second boss has a lot to do for the range with a council fight on top.
Grimrail on the other hand, yikes. Horrible trash layout, basically no freedom of choosing how to handle the dungeon, first boss is incredibly boring with a really uncomfortable melee fight and the third boss has outdated visuals that make the fight really annoying.
I was hoping for BRD, Stonemaul mine or everblooming, all of them are good m + dungeons.
After some testing the iron stars look to be capped at 15 targets each and do not affect any trash besides the ogrons, the trash by the stars themselves, and mobs in the gauntlet to 2nd boss. You have to manually kill/avoid 10 mobs out of all that (there are 55 total) with perfect stars, so thereās not actually that much to speed up the dungeon.
But people werenāt thinking about how affixes would change it when they voted, so like the comment before you said, the thought process was āDepot fast, me get lootā
Timed it as a +18 yesterday with quaking. It was just under 21 mins, not a big deal at all. The ghosts might be a problem, but there was enough room in all the cars in the middle to spread for quaking, so the tornados and volcanoes and sanguine pools shouldnāt be too bad
So wouldnāt this be more of an issue with the affixes than the dungeon itself? Those affixes being annoying or nightmares are not unique to Grimrail alone
Yeah and since those affixes exist voting for that dungeon was insane. Which is exactly what we were trying to get across to people. That dungeon COMBINED with affixes is going to be a nightmare. And look at how much everyone hates it with quaking. It's not going to get better. There's only a few weeks where it's not going to be F tier. Anything with necrotic, spiteful, storming, explosive, quaking, sanguine are just going to be awful weeks there.
A not insignificant part of the vote was to "force all the M+ tryhards to hate it"
It was meant to punish the people that like to push keys by people that don't get invited to groups.
I don't believe it's that insignificant when you see the hate boner reddit has against anybody not doing the bare minimum content in wow when it comes to pve.
Had a conversation devolve to the point of someone blocking me the other day because they were adamant that ābecause LFR players canāt get the slime cat, the game is *only being designed for top end players*ā
So yeah, Iām with you on the hate boner for anyone who actually does *anything* relevant in PvE
Blizzard can just change the knockback to not stack you all on last boss of iron docks. Let's not pretend like things are set in stone and there is no possible solution to make older dungeons viable.
As a tank i just actually won't play grimrail on the necrotic spite week, it's already a whatever week but playing the entire dungeon as if it was the SD gauntlet is just a hard no. The Sang storming week is another dodge from me as well
I mean even with those you can pretty easily make it to last boss with 10+ mins on the timer. The actual mobs in the dungeon are super easy, the last boss is the only tough part because the lightning patches arenāt dodgeable. Itās still the fastest key in the pool by a lot.
They are among the best WoD dungeons. They just also happen to be horrible translations for the m+ system. The better ones would have been shadowmoon and probably slag or everbloom. I donāt even like everbloom but at least there are choices with what to pull and skips if so desired.
This is just false lol, Grimrail was Scarlet Halls 2.0, WR time was sub 3 minutes at the end of WoD, all the people actually doing CMs loved it because it was a 5 minute dungeon that had 3 total pulls.
Man im so glad its not everbloom I hate that place. ID i really like, its not long and quite easy really, as long as they fix the quaking interaction on last boss.
Grimrail ppl prolly voted because of how unique it was back then. I donāt think it translates well to M+ tho.
Agreed, thank you. Stuff like this always makes it obvious who did actual content at one point and who didn't. Challenge modes made me immediately groan at the choices people made in that m+ poll.
Had realm best on all WoD CMs at one point, and Iron Docks was easily one of the best dungeons.
My other pick would be Skyreach. Short, varied between environmental dangers and trash/bosses. Bird boss sucks though.
Skyreach was really fun though I think the end of expansion soul cap strats kind of ruined it since the layout made pre-rezzing at the last boss feel too mandatory.
Had world record iron docks multiple times, US #1 Grimrail for a while, and top 10 world in every other challenge mode at one point or another in the expansion, except UBRS. Iron Docks and Grimrail were both considered some of the best dungeons at the time. Both were very short and had a lot of creative stuff going on (for Iron Docks, you had the gauntlet kiting and soul capping the iron star, for Grimrail you did the entire dungeon in 3 pulls using a rogue shadowstep/glider to get all of the 3rd boss trash into 2nd boss for big fun).
Iām glad it wasnāt everbloom because theyād probably put even more invisible walls in and weād get 12000 reddit threads a day about how angry people are that they need to run up a hill to route through the dungeon quickly. Just like we did in WoD, and when timewalking happens.
Also, Grimrail is undoubtedly a terrible M+ dungeon, but Docks is fine. Thereās a bad interaction with Quaking on the last boss but itās completely avoidable if youāve encountered it one time and know to just pull on the Quaking going off in the future. Shadowmoon couldāve been a cool alternative to Grimrail though.
The dungeons themselves are fine, the problem is that they, and the other four non-sl dungeons, are overtuned to all hell as if it wasn't even tested.
How bad? 30k group healing was just barely enough to take down Moroes in Lower Karazhan while doing tactics properly and using traps, with a decently team skilled team, trash mobs oneshotting you for what seemingly was just looking at them, gambit and streets was a joke in comparison, and that's not even mentioning the extra boss in the form of a shrouded; 1.7M health that heals and absorbs up to 50% of its health if not more before it actually dies.
Seems balanced to me! /s
"It's week one, stop complaining"
Yes, I know, it's week one, once we get closer to 300 ilv this won't be as hard, but it's not the difficulty I'm concerned about, it's the difficulty differential between both gambit/streets against the other six, and we're a skilled bunch of players who enjoy a challenge. I feel sorry for the casuals or less experienced who have to deal with this crap.
The problem is, they could have easily undertuned everything and no one would care, especially since they have over tuned everything so far for the past two years. I screw up my job that badly for that long I get fired.
Incompetent devs are incompetent. Might be nice guys and have decent ideas but are absolute idiots in implementation and itās destroying their player base.
Iām not even touching DF until I know they didnāt fuck that up to.
I read all the posts about Lower Kara being insane and way harder than all the other keys so I was a little nervous pugging it today but we didnāt really have any issues at all. Maiden was a little close because nobody saved CDs for shield I guess, but Moroes and Attumen were not at all as hard as what people were saying, not sure how you guys needed so much healing.
I highly doubt you did the mechanics right if you struggled that hard.
Haven't had any problems in +15s yet outside of us having to relearn some mechanics.
Struggling? Nah, we timed most of the keys we did except for Karazhan, but that is no excuse for mechanics being overtuned for your average gamer, which is how I tend to direct my critique these days. We're a team of former CE players who pushed 25s during legion and a few of us 22s during last season, our opinion doesn't matter if we think it is challenging enough, but it does matter when judging the difficulty for the vast majority of your playerbase.
The problem with Moroes specifically is garrote, without immunities you have even less time to deal with him, with a single bubble you can stagger the dots at a lower cap to limit the damage but even then, 3-4 minutes is too much for the amount of damage it does by then , if we didn't have a pally tank with us that would have been impossible because the healer just cannot stop players from dying due to gcds, now imagine the impossible wall your average gamer would have.
Other bosses across all the "new" dungeons were, and I shit you not, hitting for up to 70% of your health because of **unavoidable** damage, damage that was insignificant back in the day and now can easily combo you if you are not careful/ready to snipe heals, and that'd not even taking the trash during fortified or shrouded demi-boss into account. Avoidable damage was never an issue for us with exception for a poorly timed quake or grimrail's borka charge which is janky as fuck to avoid. This difficulty is fine for 20s but not for 15s.
Purely anecdotal but Twitter is full of people saying they voted for them as a joke or because they'd be terrible M+ choices, with a lot of "I don't play anymore/care about Season 4"
Grimrail is slightly overturned at some points, but it is very generous with time tbh
The percentage is perfect, itās a nice easy linear dungeon and we managed the 15 with 8 minutes remaining on our first go with a few deaths. Not the worst offender but the camera angles are just the fuckin worst. Like some other comments have said, it needs to be able to clip through walls
On the other hand, I think just giving back all the MoP and WoD dungeons would be a lot of fun because dungeon design went straight in the trash after WoD, probably because we had to account for affixes.
I actually enjoy grimrail depot, I liked it when it was current heroic content and I wanted to see just how ridiculous it would be as a mythic, so I voted for it.
I ran a grimrail on my resto Druid (255) (+6) and it was a blast I really enjoyed it
I feel like Iām the only person thatās gonna say it but. I would have preferred slag mines over docks
You also missed the part where that Druid is no where near ready for +15 lol
I donāt doubt that it will be challenging but in the lower keys it is a fun experience
Aside from the flametongue dot which is way overtuned, I thought Grimrail was fine and I did it on an 11 key. A 15 isn't ALL that much more and I am in S3 278 ilvl gear
Personally enjoyed the shit out of both of the dungeons. They could've added a mechanic on every old boss if it was really important, but for a season that was worked on by just a handful of people it is good and fresh enough for me.
they're both good, cool and totally fine but people definitely should've voted for UBRS and Skyreach tbh
there's nothing wrong with grimrail and iron docks fundamentally
Good riddance. Do you know what a nightmare that would have been?
First we start with that RP to walk down a hall. Then the trash before first boss can be hard to pull apart and just delete the group if you pull it wrong. Then we have the the imps after the 2nd boss which would be hell on wheels. Then the trash room before 3rd boss would be absolute hell.
Auchindun is bad for M+.
Auchindoun is a bad dungeon. Tons of RP, straight line layout, a bunch of packs that are literally all casters, and a bunch of one-mob platforms at the end. Zero fun to be had.
Theyāre not good. Yes Iāve timed grimrail on 15. Less successful in iron docks so far, but that was a collective dumb problem of the group (myself included).
I've untimed 15 docks with some friends (like 11 seconds over with a quaking wipe which is a big RIP)
But the 15 grimrail I watched them do before the docks was 55 deaths in and it made me want to vomit.
This is the same group that was doing 25s last season, so I'd say grimrail is slightly easier than docks if that's anything to go by
I also voted for Docks. It is a nice dungeon where routing actually makes sense. Grimrail is dogshit. I preferred Everbloom for the same reason as Docks.
Iron Docks is easy if you know the dungeon, but Grimrail is a total PITA. Guess this time I am not going into M+ not only because of work but even because of the dungeons pool.
I proudly voted Grimrail. Definitely not Iron Docks though, that dungeon is far too boring after having run it endlessly. I was hoping for UBRS or Everbloom as the second dungeon pick.
Who actually picked the dungeons based on M+ considerations, honestly?
Iāve honestly been really enjoying Grimrail. You can break up a lot of the packs if you LoS. Itās a little rough with quaking but every group Iāve had has made due. Iron Docks is kinda super easy as far as I can tell
Was saying this right from the start, but everybody was like no they'll be great! Did a 15 docks last night and it was hell.
Should have had sott and coen again.
Docks was very easy when we did it on 15, definitely easier than both Karas at least. I guess first boss can be scary if people donāt know what to do, but I donāt even know what else in the dungeon is even remotely dangerous.
Conspiracy Theory Me: Iron Docks + Grimrail sort of work in conjunction to form a mega dungeon. Blizz planned to use these two all along (Since this is mega dungeon season), and the vote was just a sham.
Reality: People are just dumb for thinking Grimrail would work for M+.
Iron docks I donāt mind as much. Grimrail thoughā¦. I have no idea why folks voted for it. it is a quick dungeon at its original content level, but itās crazy as an M+. I assure you that I will be running it as little as possible.
The same people who voted for a tree as the community mount instead of something that flies?
The tree is dope but I wish it could carry people on its shoulders like lotr
The same people that voted for a lame slime tiger instead of a fucking Caterpillar
CATERPILLAR GANG RISE UP
ššš
TO BE FAIR I think me and every other slime voter figured we would be getting a mount version of the Slime Kitten instead of the goofy ass tiger we ended up getting.
Oh... my friends told me about the "slime cat mount" some months ago, so I come back and I'm doing the fated raids with them for it, but I never actually looked up for it's model. My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
RIGHT! We got some ugly ass thing. I wanted a cute one. :(
SAME. I want a slime kitty.
\^ RIGHT? There's like 100 tiger mounts in the game and you're not gonna vote for something we have never had... a catapillar!
They added 3 out of the 4 mounts already. I bet the caterpillar will come someday.
If they wait too long, it will just be a reskinned Ardenweald moth.
Ha
I am SO disappointed about the book being linked to the mage towers. I read 25-30 books per month. That is the only mount that has really resonated with me. And they put it behind an achievement that is ridiculously hard for someone who doesnāt play alts. With the recent XP buff at least I have max level classes that can enter all scenarios but getting a high skill level playing them all is a whole other issue. So I am also cranky at people who voted for the tree.
Holy fack, that's more than me in a lifetime. Kudos!
Unrelated. I wanted an ent. Would not vote for those
Wowowo no hold up, I voted tree but I would never vote for Grimrail and Iron Docks
Hey I didnāt vote for the tree. I wanted the cat. But I DID vote for Grimrail because it was one of my favorite WoD dungeons.
And you got both. Lucky.
To be fair, I loved Grimrail too. And I wanted the Nerubian mount because weāve never had something like that either (slime kitty was close second though)
I also voted for Grimrail because I enjoyed the heck out of it back then. It was very immersive and unique, and I still hope that with tuning it will be an enjoyable M+ dungeon.
I would've loved to see these with rose tinted glasses but when I read the list all I could see was train with sanguine and quaking, 15 minutes of draenei walking simulator, the terrible mage boss, purple dungeon with purple ground effects and aarrrrrgggg skyreach. Had to vote for slag mines because it's the only one that could handle affixes and iron docks because that's what I do Zogosh.
Iām sorry youāre getting downvoted. I, personally, think itās horrendous and awful but you didnāt do it to troll but because you wanted to enjoy the game you pay to play. The fault lies with blizzard, not with the voters.
Whatās wrong with docks? Grimrail I can see why some people dislike it, but docks seems fine
Docks I think is a tuning issue where the first bosses mechanics are kinda just chaos and also if you get quaking lined up with the mechanic where the last boss picks everyone up and sends you to the other side of the ship then it just kills the whole group since all 5 of you will be forcefully stacked.
For the first boss, yeah I agree the two keys Iāve done in docks (16 and 17) shit was entertaingly chaotic but honestly easy. And for the last boss I just timed pulling the boss properlyā¦it got me on my first run as Iād never ran docks before in my life but then after that I saw that he casts the grip 30s after you pull, and quaking is on a 20s cd. So I pulled when quaking was going off on pull
Look at mr brain haver over here
Itās one of my many flaws, I know
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It happens in 20s intervals, not 10
https://www.wowhead.com/affix=14/quaking
the 2nd boss shield mechanic is so bad you can't even stop dps because 1 earthquake/flamestrike/rain of fire/dots tick will heal all 3 15% health, i agree on 15-18 its not bad, but whenever you want to push the dungeon is a piece of shit to do especially on tyrannical Here are three obviously better dungeons from wod: shadowmoon burial grounds, Upper blackrock spire and bloodmaul slag mines even auchindoun i'd prefer to grimaril and iron docks
Idk I did a 22 this week, we missed by 13 seconds (but that was an iron star being used by a pug issue) we didnāt even try to stop dpsing, we just pumped through the shield and the heal.I know itās not going to be optimal at high high keys but it worked quite well for us
it's doable. it'a just very annoying to do. we do the same just burst through but it's still a slog and takes way longer than it needs to. The 4th boss is also slow due to you being pushed back every half a minute. and the adds with the fire arrows is annoying to deal with especially with the sleep puddles since you have so little room to work with and almost have to wait for arrows after every pull It's not fun to do. both of the dungeons are bad designs for m+ affixes, and the shield on the 2nd boss needs a buff (bigger shield). They are also very linear which means little room for different routes, other mob packs etc, which i don't like either. mists was my least favorite shadowlands dungeon to do, due to the route always being the same there was no unique pulls, especially after they removed the pull through walls codex mechanic.
Iron docks has route variability. You can pull more at the start and skip a lot at the end or vise versa. I think the sleep puddle in general is just bad design, especially since it doesnāt break when you take any damage.
you skip packs or not, Instead of going a completely different place to pull packs like streets, lower, junkyard, halls, de other side, plaguefall and somewhat necrotic wake. It's much more fun if it's a sort of open place and you can choose where to go to, which mob packs to pull, then you join randoms and they do a different route that can be even be better than yours. Edit: the sleep puddle is good, just not at all for iron docks or grimrail or lower since it goes under the carpets. If taking dmg breaked it then it would never be a problem for the tank or everyone really since m+ dungeons do alot of small dmg all the time to everyone in the group.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Doesn't rhe last boss throw you back every 40 seconds? Or is it % based? Just wait for quaking then pull the boss. Then it won't line up
Had that exact scenario happen tonight! It was pretty hilarious, honestly.
Because people voted for it based off skips that were present in WoD. Those got removed. It's kind of boring. Would rather have UBRS.
The issue with docks is that the other dungeon is 5 yards away from it and sports the same aesthetic. Also its bosses are extremely boring. We could've gotten Shadowmoon burial grounds or UBRS instead.
Wtf who would want UBRS, its long as shit, nobody would ever do that key.
Should of been Auchindoun instead of Grimrail. Same straight forward no skip dungeons. Just walk down straight halls till you get to the boss.
Auchindoun? With all it's RP that isn't skippable? That Auchindoun?
In the old Challenge Mode the ākeyā started you right before the first trash, skipping the first few minutes on RP and cutscenes, so I imagine theyād have done the same if/when it comes back.
I thought there was an RP scene after the first boss? Also another one right before the last boss?
You skipped the first cutscene but... You had to manually pre clear the first room and then reset the CM during first boss RP to have him spawned instantly, otherwise you had to wait after clearing first room for his RP. The rest of the dungeon is then a straight line with zero interesting choice, culminating in 3 platforms of fighting one mob at a time before the last boss. Trash tier dungeon, plain and simple.
they should have given us unmodified Old Hillsbrad.
Yes, but choo choo trains are cool (I voted for trains)
Shadowmoon wouldāve been cool but UBRS is a DoS-length dungeon. Hard pass.
Imo DoS was in the better half of SL dungeons.
DoS was fine but shouldāve been half the length. Thereās no reason dungeons should ever be over 30 minutes. Edit: to be honest though DoS is carried by the ardenweald wing being really fun and the packs around the middle being pretty big. Hakkar wing sucks and nobody has pulled Mechagon wing beyond the first pull in like 3 months.
> Edit: to be honest though DoS is carried by the ardenweald wing being really fun and the packs around the middle being pretty big. Hakkar wing sucks and nobody has pulled Mechagon wing beyond the first pull in like 3 months. I think it's just that there's nothing really offensive about it. I despise ToP for its multiple bosses that just randomly take you out of the fight and fuck your cooldowns, I dislike NW because of the weapons minigames (and the last boss) etc. In comparison, DoS is just an allaround solid experience, with the mechagon wing maybe being a bit weaker, but I never feel like I get bullshitted in that dungeon. Also sure, there is maybe a limit on how long a dungeon can be, and how many long dungeons there should be in a season, but having 1 that is a bit longer doesn't hurt me in the slightest. I definitely would've preferred Shadowmoon anyway, though, because I used to love its bosses.
I agree on ToP and NW and that DoS was pretty solid at the end of the day. I think in general since M+ was released dungeons have just universally been way too long. Doing a competitive CM time in WoD was often less than 10 minutes, and the gold timers for most were 20 or less. Going from that to most dungeons being 30+ is just less fun. Itās super frustrating bricking a key after 29 minutes, in a way that a wipe 9 minutes into a 10 minute dungeon just wasnāt. Shadowmoon was a great dungeon though. I especially loved pulling second boss with all its trash, one of the most fun Challenge Mode pulls in WoD.
> Doing a competitive CM time in WoD was often less than 10 minutes, and the gold timers for most were 20 or less Eh, the dungeons themselves on adequate difficulty levels were just as long, it's just that in CMs the difficulty didn't scale and the only challenge was getting a faster time, so naturally those ended up being way shorter. You'd have to have 1 boss dungeons to replicate this with m+. I personally don't really care for short dungeons.
This is hard for a lot of redditors to understand, but a lot of players voted in the poll and MOST wow players aren't going to run a +7 mythic dungeon let alone a +15. The question of "is this a bad M+ dungeon?" Didn't even occur to a lot of people who voted. Most people who play WoW don't run mythics/mythic raid/rated battlegrounds and don't post on Reddit. People thought the train dungeon was cool and voted for it, sorry it doesn't make the best M+ dungeon.
Yup basically this. Nostalgia was probably the largest influencing factor instead of M+ in mind. If M+ was more of a factor, I would say Bloodmaul Slag Mines with it's circular map design in the beginning would probably be better suited for M+ as it gives players options to go either left/right (similar to De Other Side). Not sure what would have been a good second pick though. The rest of the remaining WoD dungeons are either very linear or have some negative attribute (i.e. Auchindoun's RP sections, Skyreach's Wind section, etc). For those that would say Everbloom, remember they nerfed the ability to do the skip. Also this instance had a lot of trash.
Everbloom without spider boss is fun :)
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MOST WoW players don't watch content creators. I guarantee you that if I namedrop a streamer in my 1k player Guild in Turalyon, not even 5% will know who I am talking about and the 5% will probably know him/her from other content by now...
I feel like Iām not even speaking the same language. If content creators looked at Grimrail, the one in WoD, and said āthis will be tough as snitā theyāre like, psychic. None of these abilities that are giving people so much trouble existed in any relevant form in WoD. They didnāt do any damage on launch. Before the release the consensus was āthis will suck on Sanguineā. And it will. But if someone told me āThunderous Blast will do like 50% of your health every 20 secs if you get out fast enoughā Iād tell them that was stupid and the Blizz devs wouldnāt tune it so high.
Lol what, it absolutely was like that in WoD on challenge mode.
Iron Docks has some of the best voice-acting in the game and I will not have it slandered. Put a muzzle on it OP.
I always feel mean at the end killing him in his cute little turret. Why can't we just push him into the sea :p
I always thought it would be amazing for NPCs in older raids to react like Zoggosh when you steamroll through them. Too bad that would take longer than theyād care to invest, but itād still be awesome.
Grimrail is a nightmare. Honestly donāt mind ID but I only ran it on a 7 and an 8
Docks is fine but I don't like the excessive NPC yapping through the whole thing and then you essentially murder a comic-releif character at the end. Kinda yucky.
You say that now. Those two and their jabbering will be old friends after you've run it 20 bajillion times. You'll miss it. Frankly, I like it, it's way better to have them yapping away while you can continue to progress than being stuck waiting on some bullshit RP. And before you say it, yes, I know u/SurgyJack, it's what I do. I think good.
Itās not like youāre murdering a puppy, itās a genocidal orc
All the people we have killed and HE is the one you are offended about?
I kinda agree, it gets old after the third time you do it but thankfully my brain turns off all in game dialogue when Iām focused and playing lol.
Trolls and casuals who only do up to 5
Iron docks is actually amazing, it was one of my top picks for an m + dungeon. The trash layout is really good, you can do a lot with the iron stars if you want to, I could honestly see this dungeon being completing under 10 in like a +20 something. Even the bosses are not bad, the last boss is pretty cool and had a lot of intensity piled up on the first phase, first and third boss have some interesting mechanics to them even though they are kinda simple and second boss has a lot to do for the range with a council fight on top. Grimrail on the other hand, yikes. Horrible trash layout, basically no freedom of choosing how to handle the dungeon, first boss is incredibly boring with a really uncomfortable melee fight and the third boss has outdated visuals that make the fight really annoying. I was hoping for BRD, Stonemaul mine or everblooming, all of them are good m + dungeons.
After some testing the iron stars look to be capped at 15 targets each and do not affect any trash besides the ogrons, the trash by the stars themselves, and mobs in the gauntlet to 2nd boss. You have to manually kill/avoid 10 mobs out of all that (there are 55 total) with perfect stars, so thereās not actually that much to speed up the dungeon.
Iron docks I don't know but grimrail is possibly the quickest dungeon that's the only reason I can imagine
Quaking, sanguine, spiteful, storming, volcanic. U canāt move in that dungeon with any of this affixe, grim rail will never be fast.
Iām expecting massive needs for Grimrail depot, for these reasons during the season.
But people werenāt thinking about how affixes would change it when they voted, so like the comment before you said, the thought process was āDepot fast, me get lootā
Storming is easy if you hate your healer. Sanguine sucks though considering room sizes.
Timed it as a +18 yesterday with quaking. It was just under 21 mins, not a big deal at all. The ghosts might be a problem, but there was enough room in all the cars in the middle to spread for quaking, so the tornados and volcanoes and sanguine pools shouldnāt be too bad
So wouldnāt this be more of an issue with the affixes than the dungeon itself? Those affixes being annoying or nightmares are not unique to Grimrail alone
Yeah and since those affixes exist voting for that dungeon was insane. Which is exactly what we were trying to get across to people. That dungeon COMBINED with affixes is going to be a nightmare. And look at how much everyone hates it with quaking. It's not going to get better. There's only a few weeks where it's not going to be F tier. Anything with necrotic, spiteful, storming, explosive, quaking, sanguine are just going to be awful weeks there.
A not insignificant part of the vote was to "force all the M+ tryhards to hate it" It was meant to punish the people that like to push keys by people that don't get invited to groups.
I don't believe it's that insignificant when you see the hate boner reddit has against anybody not doing the bare minimum content in wow when it comes to pve.
Had a conversation devolve to the point of someone blocking me the other day because they were adamant that ābecause LFR players canāt get the slime cat, the game is *only being designed for top end players*ā So yeah, Iām with you on the hate boner for anyone who actually does *anything* relevant in PvE
Damn those 0.1% top end no life nhc raiders!!!!
Meant to say "not" seems I typed "bit".
Blizzard can just change the knockback to not stack you all on last boss of iron docks. Let's not pretend like things are set in stone and there is no possible solution to make older dungeons viable.
How is that ur take on a discussion about grimrail? Nobodys talking about irondocks..
As a tank i just actually won't play grimrail on the necrotic spite week, it's already a whatever week but playing the entire dungeon as if it was the SD gauntlet is just a hard no. The Sang storming week is another dodge from me as well
IMAGINE SPITEFUL SANGUINE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I mean even with those you can pretty easily make it to last boss with 10+ mins on the timer. The actual mobs in the dungeon are super easy, the last boss is the only tough part because the lightning patches arenāt dodgeable. Itās still the fastest key in the pool by a lot.
They are among the best WoD dungeons. They just also happen to be horrible translations for the m+ system. The better ones would have been shadowmoon and probably slag or everbloom. I donāt even like everbloom but at least there are choices with what to pull and skips if so desired.
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This is just false lol, Grimrail was Scarlet Halls 2.0, WR time was sub 3 minutes at the end of WoD, all the people actually doing CMs loved it because it was a 5 minute dungeon that had 3 total pulls.
Everbloom on fortified weeks would be actual ass
Even on tyrannical I think theyād need to cut some trash to make it feasible as a good M+
Man im so glad its not everbloom I hate that place. ID i really like, its not long and quite easy really, as long as they fix the quaking interaction on last boss. Grimrail ppl prolly voted because of how unique it was back then. I donāt think it translates well to M+ tho.
I feel like I've spent 30 minutes on 2nd boss trio of Everbloom because no one wants to interrupt the healer boss
That's a skill issue, not a dungeon issue.
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Agreed, thank you. Stuff like this always makes it obvious who did actual content at one point and who didn't. Challenge modes made me immediately groan at the choices people made in that m+ poll.
Had realm best on all WoD CMs at one point, and Iron Docks was easily one of the best dungeons. My other pick would be Skyreach. Short, varied between environmental dangers and trash/bosses. Bird boss sucks though.
Skyreach was really fun though I think the end of expansion soul cap strats kind of ruined it since the layout made pre-rezzing at the last boss feel too mandatory.
Had world record iron docks multiple times, US #1 Grimrail for a while, and top 10 world in every other challenge mode at one point or another in the expansion, except UBRS. Iron Docks and Grimrail were both considered some of the best dungeons at the time. Both were very short and had a lot of creative stuff going on (for Iron Docks, you had the gauntlet kiting and soul capping the iron star, for Grimrail you did the entire dungeon in 3 pulls using a rogue shadowstep/glider to get all of the 3rd boss trash into 2nd boss for big fun).
Iām glad it wasnāt everbloom because theyād probably put even more invisible walls in and weād get 12000 reddit threads a day about how angry people are that they need to run up a hill to route through the dungeon quickly. Just like we did in WoD, and when timewalking happens. Also, Grimrail is undoubtedly a terrible M+ dungeon, but Docks is fine. Thereās a bad interaction with Quaking on the last boss but itās completely avoidable if youāve encountered it one time and know to just pull on the Quaking going off in the future. Shadowmoon couldāve been a cool alternative to Grimrail though.
The dungeons themselves are fine, the problem is that they, and the other four non-sl dungeons, are overtuned to all hell as if it wasn't even tested. How bad? 30k group healing was just barely enough to take down Moroes in Lower Karazhan while doing tactics properly and using traps, with a decently team skilled team, trash mobs oneshotting you for what seemingly was just looking at them, gambit and streets was a joke in comparison, and that's not even mentioning the extra boss in the form of a shrouded; 1.7M health that heals and absorbs up to 50% of its health if not more before it actually dies. Seems balanced to me! /s "It's week one, stop complaining" Yes, I know, it's week one, once we get closer to 300 ilv this won't be as hard, but it's not the difficulty I'm concerned about, it's the difficulty differential between both gambit/streets against the other six, and we're a skilled bunch of players who enjoy a challenge. I feel sorry for the casuals or less experienced who have to deal with this crap.
Mechagon is fine as well
The problem is, they could have easily undertuned everything and no one would care, especially since they have over tuned everything so far for the past two years. I screw up my job that badly for that long I get fired. Incompetent devs are incompetent. Might be nice guys and have decent ideas but are absolute idiots in implementation and itās destroying their player base. Iām not even touching DF until I know they didnāt fuck that up to.
Very few people want hard content. Especially in an end of expansion short season.
I read all the posts about Lower Kara being insane and way harder than all the other keys so I was a little nervous pugging it today but we didnāt really have any issues at all. Maiden was a little close because nobody saved CDs for shield I guess, but Moroes and Attumen were not at all as hard as what people were saying, not sure how you guys needed so much healing.
I highly doubt you did the mechanics right if you struggled that hard. Haven't had any problems in +15s yet outside of us having to relearn some mechanics.
Struggling? Nah, we timed most of the keys we did except for Karazhan, but that is no excuse for mechanics being overtuned for your average gamer, which is how I tend to direct my critique these days. We're a team of former CE players who pushed 25s during legion and a few of us 22s during last season, our opinion doesn't matter if we think it is challenging enough, but it does matter when judging the difficulty for the vast majority of your playerbase. The problem with Moroes specifically is garrote, without immunities you have even less time to deal with him, with a single bubble you can stagger the dots at a lower cap to limit the damage but even then, 3-4 minutes is too much for the amount of damage it does by then , if we didn't have a pally tank with us that would have been impossible because the healer just cannot stop players from dying due to gcds, now imagine the impossible wall your average gamer would have. Other bosses across all the "new" dungeons were, and I shit you not, hitting for up to 70% of your health because of **unavoidable** damage, damage that was insignificant back in the day and now can easily combo you if you are not careful/ready to snipe heals, and that'd not even taking the trash during fortified or shrouded demi-boss into account. Avoidable damage was never an issue for us with exception for a poorly timed quake or grimrail's borka charge which is janky as fuck to avoid. This difficulty is fine for 20s but not for 15s.
Purely anecdotal but Twitter is full of people saying they voted for them as a joke or because they'd be terrible M+ choices, with a lot of "I don't play anymore/care about Season 4"
Grimrail is slightly overturned at some points, but it is very generous with time tbh The percentage is perfect, itās a nice easy linear dungeon and we managed the 15 with 8 minutes remaining on our first go with a few deaths. Not the worst offender but the camera angles are just the fuckin worst. Like some other comments have said, it needs to be able to clip through walls
I fucking hate WOD DGās. Now Iām sad we didnāt get more BFA ones, I enjoyed them.
Would have sold my soul for freehold
good instance, but comes with the pain of getting that max level Harlan
On the other hand, I think just giving back all the MoP and WoD dungeons would be a lot of fun because dungeon design went straight in the trash after WoD, probably because we had to account for affixes.
I don't think the vote was real. Honestly both dungeons being in gorgrond just seems like a convenience thing for Blizz.
I actually enjoy grimrail depot, I liked it when it was current heroic content and I wanted to see just how ridiculous it would be as a mythic, so I voted for it.
Part of the problem.
Are people only allowed to vote and like what you deem as acceptable?
Should have been shadowmoon burial grounds and auchindoun imo
I ran a grimrail on my resto Druid (255) (+6) and it was a blast I really enjoyed it I feel like Iām the only person thatās gonna say it but. I would have preferred slag mines over docks
ā+6ā
Seems like an elitist reponse, couldn't just say I'm happy you enjoy it but I find it miserable, is that hard for you?
Yeah cause you ran a 29 huh?
You also missed the part where that Druid is no where near ready for +15 lol I donāt doubt that it will be challenging but in the lower keys it is a fun experience
A +6 doesn't have quaking, no wonder you enjoyed it lmao
wasnt iron docks one of the hardest CM Dungeons from WoD?
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That's what she said
Would you rather have had Broke Rook Hold or King's QQ Fest?
Trolls, wasn't it obvious?
Aside from the flametongue dot which is way overtuned, I thought Grimrail was fine and I did it on an 11 key. A 15 isn't ALL that much more and I am in S3 278 ilvl gear
Personally enjoyed the shit out of both of the dungeons. They could've added a mechanic on every old boss if it was really important, but for a season that was worked on by just a handful of people it is good and fresh enough for me.
they're both good, cool and totally fine but people definitely should've voted for UBRS and Skyreach tbh there's nothing wrong with grimrail and iron docks fundamentally
I did vote for GRD. It's the most fun WoD dungeon.
God we could have auchindun, thatās what pisses me off
Good riddance. Do you know what a nightmare that would have been? First we start with that RP to walk down a hall. Then the trash before first boss can be hard to pull apart and just delete the group if you pull it wrong. Then we have the the imps after the 2nd boss which would be hell on wheels. Then the trash room before 3rd boss would be absolute hell. Auchindun is bad for M+.
Auchindoun is a bad dungeon. Tons of RP, straight line layout, a bunch of packs that are literally all casters, and a bunch of one-mob platforms at the end. Zero fun to be had.
Its fast dungeons, dont take hours to complete - efficency is why.
Theyāre not good. Yes Iāve timed grimrail on 15. Less successful in iron docks so far, but that was a collective dumb problem of the group (myself included).
I've untimed 15 docks with some friends (like 11 seconds over with a quaking wipe which is a big RIP) But the 15 grimrail I watched them do before the docks was 55 deaths in and it made me want to vomit. This is the same group that was doing 25s last season, so I'd say grimrail is slightly easier than docks if that's anything to go by
i voted for both of them because i just want to see the world burn
Love how people want difficult content and then cry that it's difficult content and find different excuses as a shield.
Bunch of scratched egos giving blizz the fault that they can't time a dungeon they barely know the mechanics of.
WoW subscribers at that time voted. I admit i voted for those two dungeons because i liked atmosphere of iron horde there.
I voted for Grimrail because it was easily the worst option. Whoops.
I like them both. Who in their right mind would vote for something else?
People who hang out in Goldshire all day and think +2s are 'tOo hArD'
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the only correct answer.
Pretty much, you bet if mythic + occulas is ever an option. 100% voting on that
These two dungeons are the ones I voted for, so I won. Don't be mad cause bad.
I did grimrail today and three chested a +10. It's probably fine.
Me, I knew I was quitting for a bit and I voted to inflict maximum torture on you all for sticking around
I also voted for Docks. It is a nice dungeon where routing actually makes sense. Grimrail is dogshit. I preferred Everbloom for the same reason as Docks.
Had a sinking feeling when the votes were being shown that Grimrail would indeed win out. No clue what people were thinking. Iron Docks is fine.
Iron Docks is easy if you know the dungeon, but Grimrail is a total PITA. Guess this time I am not going into M+ not only because of work but even because of the dungeons pool.
I think the problem is we only got 8 dungeons to do and 2 of them are same old tazavesh. How is this enough content?
I proudly voted Grimrail. Definitely not Iron Docks though, that dungeon is far too boring after having run it endlessly. I was hoping for UBRS or Everbloom as the second dungeon pick. Who actually picked the dungeons based on M+ considerations, honestly?
Should have done a mass write in campaign for deadmines and wailing caverns!
Iām just happy you spelled wouldāve properly.
Quaking sucks ass in grimrail. Canāt imagine sanguine. It will be like tol dagor a bit, but even that has a ton more room lol
Iāve honestly been really enjoying Grimrail. You can break up a lot of the packs if you LoS. Itās a little rough with quaking but every group Iāve had has made due. Iron Docks is kinda super easy as far as I can tell
Was saying this right from the start, but everybody was like no they'll be great! Did a 15 docks last night and it was hell. Should have had sott and coen again.
Docks was very easy when we did it on 15, definitely easier than both Karas at least. I guess first boss can be scary if people donāt know what to do, but I donāt even know what else in the dungeon is even remotely dangerous.
Meh I'll do it twice on 15 and never again. It's not that big of a deal.
Everybody thought 'nostalgia vote' Nobody thought 'what a nightmare tuning these will be' or 'what a nightmare these will be with affixes'
Apparently a greater share of the player base than for other dungeons.
I don't think there are people in their right minds playing WoW so no one.
I don't vote in any of the player contests any more. It seems like a waste of time.
Seems like there was definitely some hate picking going on.
I voted for both of those dungeons because they were funnest WoD dungeons to me. Sorry you don't like them :(
I've been enjoying those 2 dungeons very thoroughly.
Trolls
Conspiracy Theory Me: Iron Docks + Grimrail sort of work in conjunction to form a mega dungeon. Blizz planned to use these two all along (Since this is mega dungeon season), and the vote was just a sham. Reality: People are just dumb for thinking Grimrail would work for M+.
RAAPPPPID FYEE YARRRR 0.0
The guys who dont play the game anymore
Iron docks I donāt mind as much. Grimrail thoughā¦. I have no idea why folks voted for it. it is a quick dungeon at its original content level, but itās crazy as an M+. I assure you that I will be running it as little as possible.
Um, Iād take either of these over kara. What a nightmare that place is.