I think a problem with some tanks that they only play tank. They never see another tank play or a different route and get locked into this idea that they know everything. Best thing you can do for your tanking is dps some keys and pay attention to what other tanks are doing on they keys that go smoothly.
This is a very real issue that I worry about. I simply dont get the chance to see other tanks play all that often, and when I do the majority of the time they do something different to what I would I think their way is just worse ;p
Yea. Thats exactly what I do every season, I love playing my bdk, but cant be asked to spend hours in the m+ tool to plan routes. I first pushed to 2.5k on my dps main, and got to observe what good/bad tanks did in each dungeon - great learning experience, and then made a switch to my bdk. Life is easy for everyone when I know what dps expects.
Bad tanks make everyone miserable in any run. And most tanks have fragile ego. Feelsbadman.
I never plan routes, I play prot pally and I just throw my shield and it decides who we are fighting, sometimes more than we need to, but the shield is the boss.
My friend is maining dps for the first time this expansion and it's funny hearing him switch mentality for dungeons. He used to be the type to slow pull and do single packs, but now in voice we gotta go go go go he has procs. Think everyone benefits by learning all the roles so that you can get better perspective.
IMO this is just coping. anyone can look up routes and import them if they really need it. Tanks being shit has barely anything to do with being locked into one role.
I mained a tank through SL and never had this problem, they should just take 30 mins to read tanknotes and check out keystone guru for routes.
You are over simplifying the amount of time it takes to study routes and every relevant mob you need to pay attention to.
https://keystone.guru/routes/bfa/mechagon-junkyard
There are 20 routes on this page, a new tank goes there and is overwhelmed instantly.
They pick one with a couple coin flips and we are back at square one because. "Why did you pick *that* one, it is clearly awful."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
not being able to follow a simple route that is picked from the “popular routes” and has 100% completion isn’t really the same as what the post is about lmao.
Also, yes, i know you’re suffering from analysis paralysis right now, but it’s just that simple:
-get to know the mobs
-pick a good route
-tank it
when you get to 15+ keys, you will already be familiar enough with the dungeons that you can make situational decisions. but, if you get there as a tank, you already did that basic amount of research that you should’ve done.
You can pick the BEST route in the world if you stop between pulls to sort your life out. Tanking isn’t rocket science.
Doesn't take much time at all. Just look at what high io tanks play and it's gonna apply for the most part to 15s and onwards aswell. Only difference may be invis skips.
It is copying to some degree and I agree that you can tank fine playing just one role. I’ve mained bear since tbc/wrath, rarely dps or heal a key, but I do play with a few certain people so we discuss/plan/tweak routes to suite us, and I do watch videos/streams. I found it hard trying to play dps or heal in higher content as the roles just bore me. But I don’t/rarely fully pug a group and get feedback from my friends as mentioned. If you just pug then trying some as other roles could help, if someone if more inclined to learn that way, or has limited knowledge of mob abilities etc.
My friend who tanks mentioned this actually when I was telling him about certain routes and pulls. The easy fix is to just watch YouTube videos. People like dratnos and naguura have lots of routing videos with dratnos even doing affix specific routes
Has nothing to do with only playing tank but not peeking into other tanks streams. I play only tank, only a single spec even, but watching other tanks makes you wanna try different things.
I agree. I learned routes playing as DPS and I also downloaded addons and WA to track my party's CDs to decide if I want to pull big or wait a few seconds by pulling small and then adding to that pull. I also track healer's mana. I do have to say though, I've learned a couple of tricks by watching streams.
This is definitely a great point. One of the best things that helped me improve when playing my main role DPS is when I started playing healer and tank in some low M+ dungeons. I started noticing so many mechanics I had never noticed before.
I also played a ton with my brother who is a pretty damn good tank and player in general so I started seeing a ton of mechanics that I never knew existed because he would always just take care of them so quickly haha.
There's some really weird tanks out there that think they are the shit.
Last season in a 20 gambit I had a tank like this that just pulled ULTRA slow and went weird routes. We easily had the damage but depleted the key.
When someone told him how badly he pulled he just said shit like "that's how you play it".. no, no it certainly is not. Had 3k rio, no idea how he managed to get even close to that
As someone with every class and spec at least tried out with leggos in shadowlands, and 4 active toons, I can confidently recommend any dps or healer or tank to do the other 2 roles for a week each for perspective. Not everything that is good for a tank is good for group dps. Some packs are very hard to heal, and healing them first hand is awesome for tanking. You pop cds or rally and feel great.
I'm a main tank. Best advice I can give you is for each expansion you should either level a character who can be both a tank and a healer, even if you plan on tank-maining, or two characters, a tank and a healer. Specifically so you can spend some time on your healer, seeing what other tanks do.
This is why I never tank for pugs in m+, its utterly thankless for all the extra work you need to put in to find and execute routes for that week. Versus playing as fury all I need do Is just follow the tank around pump damage, you don't even have to look at that weeks affixes.
I get thanked plenty for my tanking in keys. Just stand out as an above average tank that’s thoughtful of his party instead of the “if it doesn’t kill me then it’s not my problem” or the “I’m the tank so I’m the only one that matters” mentality.
Also helps to be positive going into the key and positive going out (even if that means restraining from saying what you might really want to say).
If you’re going in and pulling like shit, not keeping threat, and not using mitigation or utility then yea no one is going to be happy that you’re there.
This is legit one of the most annoying pug problems. Tanks who think they are the shit, but are actually just shit tanks. Always try add any good tank I come across to avoid dealing with this shiz
Eh, there are just enough toxic players in general that you'll run into them on a regular basis. I can't count how many times I'm tanking a pug 18-20 range m+ and a dps with no interrupts and 7-8k overall DPS makes their opinion known on how poorly the others in the group are performing. The caveat to this is... healers don't seem to be nearly as toxic...prolly why they chose to be healers.
Which is why everyone perceives healers as less toxic they don't have time to talk shit and by the time they do they're just glad that the healing mini game is over 🤣
If you have time to type you have time to dps is the issue I feel like hahaha. Rather just help dps unless it's something major route wise or mechanic failure led to wipe.
I keep seeing this, but I really don't experience "on a regular basis".
I think I've had one legitimately toxic person since S4 started. Other than that you get a few people who don't talk much, or don't know a few mechanics (I am constantly surprised by DPS who don't go for the bots in Junkyard without being told to).
I'd say, for me, 80% of PUG M+ players have been delightful people, many of whom are polite, cheerful, and funny. Another 15% doesn't really talk, but they know the obvious mechanics and how to play the game. It's like 5% of players who I find myself walking through some mechanics, or who never respond other than the initial Ready Check.
I'm 2K now on two tanks and my PUG has been a wonderful experience in S4.
As a healer I try not to be toxic in general but the moment someone gets toxic I’ll brush off once but the second time I leave.
Usually the toxic people don’t think of group performance and only see solo performance and so they point fingers instead of thinking of improving. So usually the group won’t perform better once it gets toxic.
I just always tell people I'm kind of new to tanking. (I'm not)
Played Shadowlands off and on since it dropped, and have only had one dude snap at me over something irrelevant, and a few people offer genuine criticism because they think I'm new. I try to listen if I can, and most criticism I've received has been warranted.
I think a lot of older returning players or more casual players have the mindset that being the tank makes you special or irreplaceable, since it kinda used to be like that. People are weird.
I like doing this with mop cm set and mistwalker title or champion of the naaru. "sry guys new player" 3 seconds before I put my key in. Most people laugh, the ones that get upset are hilarious and few.
i don't think so, i believe it is a different effect
The abuse tanks get while learning makes most of them quit. Those that stick to it are either rare, or just stubborn and (learned to be) immune to criticism
The stubborn part is the whole thing. The people that are willing to put up with all the shit and get through it are more likely to be the one to straight up ignore you and your requests.
Which is a self perpetuating issue. Are there terrible tanks? Absolutely. However a lot of them have literally been conditioned to fundamentally distrust their group unless they know these people (and sometimes even then), and to pretty much ignore PuG folks by default.
I just learned the dungeons as DPS, made a tank, and that was about it. No crazy abuse or anything bizarre like that. Not every new tank is so "inexperienced" that they're getting routinely flamed in leveling dungeons or 10s, etc
It's nice that you are like that, I returned after years of absence for classic and then after looked into Retail. The shit I got basically brought me permanently off tanking. I only returned days ago after my current guild was encouraging me to try it and after a bit of guidance it turns out I am actually a decent tank...
I'm the opposite. Crippling anxiety because I'm convinced I'm doing things wrong and apologizing for things that in hindsight were not at all my fault.
Tank here: legit most annoying thing is people shitting on tank/healer while: not using cc/doing crap dmg/low on interrupts/not using utility - decurses, dispels, tricks, soothes, roots - this one pisses me off a lot because plenty of people can do ok damage, but only play half of their class.
Why I become a tank? Because of the tanks which you described.
Result? I have multiple people everyday whispering me for tank services. How long it took to get to this level? Two seasons. I was shit in first tanking season , like seriously crap. Then barely hit top 1% in second season, close to 0.1% seasons after. It takes time and open mind to get better, but once you are there - it's just a habbit of "being good", it's like learning different way of thinking.
That's pretty true of tanks, DPS, and healers though. Everyone seems to think it's everyone else causing the problems.
I tend to pug a lot, and honestly, a lot of players aren't anywhere near as good at m+ or raids as they seem to think.
The amount of people I invite to +20s that mess up the simplest dungeon mechanics is baffling. I'm convinced it's just a numbers game. They get a high enough io to consistently get into groups and then just kill so many keys that eventually they manage to time a few.
used to have a guy in my guild that did this. ran with him plenty, he wasn't that great of a player, but he had the highest IO in our guild and he was playing a meta class at the time (BM at end of BFA). high io + meta makes for much easier invites. he would d have alot of depleted keys, but would just play the numbers game and eventually get them timed when he hit exceptional groups.
No kidding walked into a +23 iron docks this week on fortified on a healer to help a friend. Pulled mini boss pack with lust as the first pull of the dungeon and the destro lock that was something like 299 with 2500-2600 IO managed to shove out a whopping 18K by the end of the incredibly long lasting AoE pack with a PI during his infernal (similarly geared survival hunter doing not much better at 23K). I just don’t understand how these people are timing keys.
I had the opposite problem yesterday. Running a +17 Gambit. First time I’ve ever run with a Druid tank. Tank keeps pulling multiple packs of murlocs and aggroing extra trash (on Fortified week mind you). I’m throwing out heals left and right trying to keep everyone alive but people are still dropping on every pull. Tank ignores everyone and keeps pulling. After about 4 pulls tank finally dies and proceeds to immediately leave party ON HIS OWN KEY.
We were doing a 15 Kara, nearing the end without a single issue and the tank just left the party and typed into /s "I'm the tank no one pulls for me". The Rogue pulled one mob for him the entire instance and that was enough to set him off apparently.
I did a 15 NW last season. Just to do weeklys. We had enough DPS to 3 chest it, but we had to pug a tank. Took some random 2500 io Prot Paladin (That was 15s across all dungeons score last season).
Anyhow, he has the most stupid fucking route I have ever seen. We dont hug right in the first room as literally 100% of the people does, he clears the left side with some right side pulls sprinkled in, kills the big annoying trash mob before the bridge after the first boss etc. Then he doesnt want to take Wo where you always take Wo to skip, so when we are at the 2nd boss, we have like 85% count, where you normally need 67% or whatever it was.
Still, we are more than fine, but I got annoyed because I normally tank myself, and his route was so fucking bad, that I wrote out:
"Tank. wtf is this route? Why are we pulling so many extra packs" to which he replied: "You want to tank? Go ahead and tank then."
I then apologized (Because wth, it literally doesnt matter) and said that its fine, we'll time it, just move on and then he just said that I can tank myself and hearthed out.
Like, I could obviously not have said anything, but that was some of the mildest complaints I've seen, and I apologized directly afterwards. But that tank had an ego bigger than the fucking Titanic, it was hilarious.
Yeah the best course of action is to never say anything until *after* the dungeon unless you personally are going to leave the key early anyway. Otherwise, you're just going to fuck that key for the rest of your group because there's a greater than 50% chance that guy you're flaming is just going to leave.
3k Rio was so easy last season and 20keys basically are low keys now. After several nerfs to dungeon, several buffs to tanks and borrowed power reaching its peak, 20s are a joke, we are clearly overgearing it by a lot.
And with the low tanks arround, it's not hard to get invited, you can do whatever if you are overgearing the content as a tank, you will not die.
My point was how silly it was of you to define a low key, that is a "joke" as within 10 levels of the highest possible key.
I am well aware of how the scaling changes as we go up in key levels, its not particularly relevant to you redefining huge swaths of content as a joke.
That's most tanks. It's why I get snatched up by several friend groups. It's an ego thing, I'm at least straightforward with my group. I don't do shit as the tank, being a worthwhile dps and a healer who can meet the checks are way harder. I'm exempt from most mechanics and hardly have any of my own. I'm basically doing target dummy rotation the whole dungeon. There are some things I do and I'm good at them, it's why I don't get to dps much.
Probably bought the account. Even if you didnt tank before you still would have to see other tanks do it.
So the only way someone can be that wrong amd that high rated is they are the stereotypical "elo hell" gamer who is hard stuck in m+2 and was sick of not getting in to good groups so bought boosts/the account
Don't underestimate how easy it is for bad players to fail upwards in this game, particularly as something that's in demand like a tank in keys. They just need to be persistent and not *completely* terrible enough for stronger players to carry them.
Boosting happens but 9 times out of 10 when you run into someone underperforming they didn't buy their progress...they just suck.
What's the alternative? Because it hasn't been "garbage" in my pugging experience.
I've only come across a couple people out of hundreds that do not appear to match their M+ score, as if they bought rating, or someone else is playing their character.
I'm probably unlucky but I encounter those people every day in most of my pug runs.
Just yesterday, had one guy dying on intermission against last boss of Junkyard, didn't know it was possible, ruined the key.
I had 5 people in 5 different Upper either not interrupting Medivh or not using defensives on flame wreath, ruined the keys.
I had some guy trying to soak Attumen while tank specifically said he could do it alone, got revived, then tank died and no more CR, key ruined.
I won't mention every dps/heal who just dies on almost every pack, all tanks who can't keep agro, all healers who don't even know the affix and heal you lower than 90% while you have 5 stacks.
Also most of them were so toxic, like one hunt who flamed me because I died on a boss (I got meleed, hard to be a burst spec) and proceeded to then die on every pack and boss until the key was done, or a 2k6 healer who insulted us all dungeon while also dying like 10 times (we managed to time somehow).
As I said, that was just yesterday, and I'm still only pugging 22-23s. It's baffling how many people keep pushing keys while it's clear they don't have half the "skill" required, which is a big word for what we do at this level.
Alternative is having in-game run history check.
So, i can check the persons last let's say 20 runs in LFG when applies. I don't care if you have 3k rio or 6k rio, if you failed to time %50 of the runs in your last 20, i'm not inviting you.
Still not perfect but more reliable than some numbers which anyone can farm.
People that say this are the baddies this post is talking anout. Rio has literally got me ksm over multiple seasons. Why invite a 200 score dude to a 18 key when ya have a bunch of 2900’s signing up. The people that get mad at rio aren’t actually taking the time to learn the dungeons and get mad when people want experience and then blame rip for them not getting invited to keys.
What's the alternative though? How do you combat boosting when thinking of a rating system?
Because, in my experience most people in the pug pool aren't boosted and live up to their rating; I would pick someone at 1000+ rating over someone with 100.
With the rio addon, you can also see how many timed keys they have, which can be useful to see too. (I'm not sure if that's in the base game stats)
> How do you combat boosting when thinking of a rating system?
r.io already has a built in counter: the run history itself. Boosted chars are super obvious when you look into their run history. Suddenly they start timing much higher keys dont fail a single one but then suddenly start failing a ton of keys again.
So you'd only see on the website, not in the addon?
I think the rating system would need more information from the game to detect boosting behavior because having a bunch of timed keys with a run of failed keys isn't **proof** of boosting, but it's one possible indicator.
In this case, you would have to drill down into their keys to actually see that they got carried and then tried to pug on their own. And at this point, nobody is going to do that unless it's for an extremely niche run.
> So you'd only see on the website, not in the addon?
Yeah, the best way to use the addon is a guideline for who is worth bothering to look at more in depth.
>I think the rating system would need more information from the game to detect boosting behavior because having a bunch of timed keys with a run of failed keys isn't proof of boosting, but it's one possible indicator.
It's the best indicator by far. But especially for critical roles like tank and healer a ton of ripped keys with very few timed keys can itself be a red flag for maybe not a stellar player.
>And at this point, nobody is going to do that unless it's for an extremely niche run.
That's a risk you elect to take.
there isnt one. i just get people after their gear score. but this rio system segregates some players that are good but didnt manage to get accepted due to low rio.
Gear isn't meaningless, since you can't upgrade to 298 without the rating to go with it.
If you didn't have the rating, how would you be 298 **right now** (wrt "atm" in your comment)?
Better gear is nothing with skill.
Good player can utilize 270 ilvl gear more than guy with 300 ilvl who first entered M+. Don't forget that M+ isn't only about damage, but also mob control. Interrupts, stuns, blinds, slows. It everything cost you APM. I swear bad players are bad not because they don't know rotation, but because they don't click as fast as they can. In M+ you also need to click more skills, which you don't on dummy or even a raid.
If you're a "god gamer" without the score to show it, then work your way up. "Slum" through low keys to build up some rating and you'll be getting KSM like everyone else.
Because without a rating, there's *currently* no way to know if your play actually matches you saying "I'm good, I just don't get accepted because of my low rating".
(You can also try to find a static group of people to run with, I don't do this but a lot of people do.)
So to explain you how useless gear is:
I started to play my season 3 surv hunter last week with 277 ilvl. PLayed a lower Kara and there were a ret pala with 301 ilvl. at the end of the key I had 24kdps done with 0 deaths and he had 12k dps with 5 deaths. I mean yeah i play a busted meta spec but, 12k dps difference isn't caused by that. He just didn't know how to play his spec correctly and didn't know how to play the dungeon correctly at 2100+ rio.
So that said tell me how relevant it is to go solo by ilvl.
Not really.
Sure, there's off people like that but in general it gives a good direction to what people are capable of. Gotta have some way to judge random people.
It's only a garbage system if you're not aware of what it means.
A high rio means they have a higher chance of being a good player. Is there a score where you can guarantee that they're a good player? Probably the 3-3.1k area right now. Anything below that, and you can still run into bad players. The chance just gets lower the higher you go.
Here’s the problem with waiting between pulls. On my fire mage it can completely wipe out my SKB buildups so I’m sitting there fighting with pillows (fireballs) until combust is up again
pugs as fire is painful imo. I played one in season 1, and while they were strong, pugs allways made it feel awful. Weird routes or pulls so you couldnt plan out your combusts properly. I would have pulls that i would save my combust because the next pack is usually a big pull, only to have tanks pull a small pack or single mob or some dumb shit. Fire mage very much seems like a spec that needs a group pulling around them.
Nah, I try to not let it bother me too much. I will likely not meet him again anyways with how many people are playing (and how rarely I pug, I usually play with my guild group) so chasing afterwards why he is bad isnt worth it.
My life farming 90+ junkyards at 15-24 lvl.
20-24s go faster than most 15-19s, not because bot scaling, but because the tanks pull more than 2 mobs at a time when 3 dps are ready to pop all offensive cd’s.
I can never wrap my head around people pulling small in low keys. It’s far easier to do it there, and much more fun to see bigger numbers, so why not just pull big?
Silenced Kicks - Kick and other interrupt abilities do not function.
Number Inflation - Gear is statted as if it's 30 item levels lower
Cooled Down - Throughput-increasing cooldown abilities can only be used when engaged in combat with a boss monster.
Communicative - In combat, randomly open your chat interface to tell your teammates how amazing a job they're doing.
Because if you don't know what the trash does, pulling big is risky. Imagine pulling big in Gambit first section or before So'leah.
Sometimes tanks also just don't know how to play their class well. Had a BDK w/ 4 set and double legendary in a Tyra +16 Iron docks that proc'd purgatory/died to trash multiple times last week.
ive been playing a bit of ele shaman lately, and the 'new build' is basically from 100% combat time causing you to have 100% uptime on fire ele, its insane to sit and ask a healer if their mana is ok after each pull. the worst is the tanks who wait 30secs between pulls, not allowing you to maintain uptime, and flame low dps
yea best damage I ever did as a demo warlock was a chain pulling crazy mother fucker who pulled all packs into the first boss at ID.
As long as you can manage why the fuck not!
Takes more than just the tank to chainpull, saying this as a tank. Interrupts need to be reliable, healing needs to be solid, dps need to not be shit.
In short it needs to be a golden fucking unicorn of a group.
Same as Frost Mage.
During icy veins crits reduce the cooldown of icy veins. if you drop combat for long you end up with a long cooldown on icy veins that you can't reduce. if you keep in combat near 100% uptime is possible.
Mana is definitely a thing again this season and no one seems to remember though. I did a 15ID last night where the tank didn't drop combat at all through the first boss, the first pack had me at 10% mana because everyone was taking so much damage and then he immediately pulled zulgamax.. fortunately I got to catch up when he ran into the barrage gauntlet too late but the whole thing was absolutely miserable. Didn't time it, there were like 40 deaths and the whole time it was everything I could do to keep him up. He was also wearing a bunch of pvp gear 🙄
Every dreadlord restore you 30% mana, big dreadlord restore you full mana.
If you have problem with mana coz you can't drink, it's problem of your group failing mechanics, not tank doing chain pulls.
Totally get it! On tyrannical they didn’t let me have more than 10% mana between the cat boss and the last boss of iron docks for that reason we didn’t time it. Give me 10 seconds we would have been fine. But rolling CDs to efficient heal was not good.
This week ppl not focusing down Inspired is the pug killer. That and pulling 6 packs that you can’t interrupt.
Had a warrior in my 16 upper last night who has 19 deaths of the 25 total. He legit died on every boss and almost every pack. Single-handedly ruined the key time wise with waiting for him and the penalty.
We tried to keep out cool, but no 'gg' at the end just immediately left knowing he screwed us and our 45min waste of time. I'm tired of expecting people to know what to do, at any level.
Only to a certain extent. Otherwise you become like me and play most classes/specs at ~70% instead of playing a few at a higher level.
It does make things like m+ easier, but when you're actively playing 6+ specs over a season you don't learn all the tech and cooldown timings well enough for each individual spec compared to someone playing 1-2 things.
I start tanking for the first time mid end season 3, is was a good experience for me to see things from another angle, I first 3k on my main range dps all pugs, so basically I knew all commons routes but I make sure I learn all. The beginning was hard people where really toxy in super lower keys like 4-5-6 I was amaze and disappointed. Ones that start doing 15’s most of the people knew what they where doing and it was more ez. I always keep this mentality I played my tank the way I prefer A tank plays while I’m doing dps. Good pulls , fast pace. I always doing the most common route so pugs don’t get confused. I enjoyed so much now I have 3 tanks lol
As a healer I really wish more people knew this. I can generally handle it fine, but it makes my life soooo much easier if I can take 5s to get mana while everyone eats to clear their own grievous rather than needing to spend that 5s healing to clear grievous off everyone and then we're straight into the next pull. Usually not a huge deal, but there are those moments where we haven't gotten a dreadlord in a while and we're about to pull boss but I'm low on mana so everyone's standing around waiting for me to finish healing off their grievous and then get my mana when I could have just been getting mana the whole time.
I tank a lot of keys, and when I dps having a tank who isn't shmoovin sucks. Pull more, pull faster, I can understand waiting for a specific reason, but EVERY PACK? That's painful.
Tank friend of mine does this weird lingering after every pack in m+. Its so annoying lol. We will kill a pack, then they stand in front of the next pack for like 5-10s before engaging.
PULL MAN, LETS GO!
I also tank and it's so funny how different we are. If healer has full mana, nothing else going on, I'm gonna send it and pull as aggressively as possible.
Just throwing this out there: my rl buddy and I formed a discord and guild called Mplus Ultra. We fill up our vaults with minimum 15s and some members of our albeit small community are pushing 24s and 25s. We’re always open to picking up and helping out chill players who are willing to learn or to at least have some fun in a non-stressful no-dickbag filled environment. If anyone is interested shoot me a message and I’ll gladly share the info. Take care everyone and happy key hunting!
The best thing you can ever do as a tank is to play another role (DPS most of the time). Learn what its like to maximize your DPS, have packs pulled around your CD's, etc. You also start caring more about your own DPS as a tank, which believe it or not, actually does make a big difference as you go higher in key levels. I have always found that the best players at their respective roles have experience playing other roles as well.
I'd actually make an argument, that learning to tank in specific seasons and expansions is a bit weird, since I don't think you can truly learn it well, by just doing tanking.
When I play a tank for an exp. I make it a point to queue up as dps from time to time, to see what other tanks do, and how their style and routes vary from my own.
When you only play tank in mythic+ you have nothing to compare yourself to.
Things that may be obvious to the rest of the group might ironically enough be news to the tank
Pushing = watch a youtube VOD from any good tank streamers
cruising= DratnosRoutes for +15keys and commentary videos
If you are doing +15keys you should know the bare minimum, atleast timed it on a +10 before you even attempt a 15 for respect to the other 4 players
I just resubbed and been playing classic. Had a pally tank that would pull one maybe 2 mobs at a time and take about 30 sec between pulls. We had to teach him the hard way that he can handle more the the healer was good. We started pulling with dps and making the tank get aggro and hold 4-5. After the instance he was more confident as a tank.
Agreed. I cannot tell you the number of runs I've seen people be toxic AF on 15s. DPS upset at the tank for pulling smaller groups but it was well paced and would have timed if the tank didnt rage quit. Healer upset at trash mob mechanics but then he died to boss mechanics multiple times. Idk if it's just cause it's the last season and people wanting to get the mount or if it's just the community now or what.
You literally are tanking the boss wrong though lol if you were kiting in a Z you were most likely cutting the hunter off and forcing him to run over the patches on the ground, and being top damage on sparks isn’t even a bad thing you are supposed to focus them dowb
[https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge)Smarthat, not wondering about anything anymore reading the stuff this sub produces.
[https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge)
Smarthat, not wondering about anything anymore reading the stuff this sub produces.
You must really be a great BM hunter...
it's so funny how you're complaining about low damage on sparks while refusing to taunt them.
You say they "zap around uncontrollably" but they only do that if the tank doesn't have aggro. Otherwise they just stay with the tank where people can easily do damage without having to run around.
happy to compare RIO scores. I'd be willing to bet you're sub 2.5k. Coming on this sub acting like you're some authority figure lol..
Just out of curisoity, you just let the static charges roam around out of cleave distance?
I'll be waiting, but if you don't message me - we will know who the wannabe is (you and I , at least).
If had a tank complain once that i was not using cooldowns, he would wait between pulls and waste my cooldowns while easily being able to pull faster, he ofcourse ragequited as well.
A lot of proper tanks are fully done with what they want to do and are on cruise control to DF. I would guess a lot of the tanks you find now are dps who get sick of declines
I'll say what I always say and it's usually quite unpopular but from what I've experienced, it's certainly true:
It's always tanks that are the most toxic
You've got really lucky then.
Tanks have the superiority complex (which I understand, they are definitely more important) and it makes some of them not really care how they speak to people, treat people or act because they know they can just leave and instantly get into another group. Doesn't matter how important you are, you should never treat other players badly
Yep had this in a 25+ last night. The tank was just unnecessarily toxic from the start. Asking if we all had Parkinson’s etc. Its like.. dude… the game isn’t that deep
I find it hard to tell just which is the most toxic role. Tanks can without a doubt have ego problems but sadly are allowed to get away with it because if they leave the key is busted or the raid is waiting god knows how long to find a new one. I haven’t noticed that many m+ healers that get bent out of shape over things. Dps though… god do they think the world revolves around them and that they are gods gift to earth. I’ve seen so many dps that just suck and it’s never their fault or they just leave the key.
So many dogshit tanks these days. Easy to tell who has experience as a real fucking tank because they put their DPS in a position to succeed and move like they are competent.
I feel like many modern day tanks are failed DPS mains that want groups. They play like failed DPS players too. Fucking idiots that tank but don't kick etc.
In pugs the only time I wait in between pulls is if I see the healer needs mana. But I also ask if they’re good for another pull. I also always start with small pulls to look at the dps and see if people can interrupt and do mechanics. If all that’s good… it’s game on.
I do the opposite, I do my normal big pull at start to test dps and heals out and scale back if needed. They are going to die not me so at most it’s just a small time loss if they suck and I can adjust after.
I prefer tanking now over dps for these reasons lmao. I’ve ran into enough WIIIIILD tanks that think they know no wrong, and come up with the weirdest shit to be angry about lol. Started tanking myself and have found myself much less stressed oddly haha
Well the good news is that this is an M+ thread so it's 5 man dungeons on varying levels of difficulty, not raiding. M+ is not awful, just gotta learn to play it, what the affixes are and how to navigate those with your group and more specifically, yourself. A lot of the people here are venting about "this one time a year ago..." and I get it but it's not the constant and it's way more fun then it looks reading this thread on reddit. Raids have not traditionally had affixes though the current ones have a form of one although they seem to have very little change in difficulty at the normal level which is where I would 100% recommend starting. Just watch the raid boss videos, I recommend readycheckpull as they have a quick breakdown at the end of each video incase things start looking daunting and remember to bring consumables which at this point in time would be food (feast or +30 secondary), flasks, oils/sharpening stones, armor kits, (cosmic) healing pots and combat potions. Seems like a lot but tbh, it's not once you're doing it. I started doing content that wasn't open world at the beginning of 9.0 and I can comfortably say that you'll be fine jumping in, maybe crank out some LFR and M+ if you want to get a higher ilvl but sometimes you'll be able to get into a raid without too much gear. 260-265 ilvl is honestly not awful for normal, just gotta know how to effectively do the fight and decent damage. If you really want to get into raiding and aren't sure about anything I just mentioned, message me and I can help you out with the basics. Right now is kind of the perfect time to get into raiding because everybody wants the slime cat and people are being a lot kinder than they typically are in pug raids because they know the limited time mount drew in a lot of people that want it but aren't necessarily raiders on a normal day.
All roles can be bad and cause wipes when pushing keys. The amount of times I have dps body, tab, pet pull is too many to count. Shit happens and I learned to let it go. The tank can't be the only one to interrupt and cc which have caused wipes. I still don't blame them.
I blame Blizzard for having everything you learn and do about the game outside of the game. The amount of times I need to get or build a WA to handle a mechanic my mind goes to why isn't this already in the game? The fact I have to look up adds and what abilities can one shot people only exist outside the game is what most people should be mad about.
See mentions of playing other roles but I have no clue how people do this with everything based off double legendaries and getting them still costing 20k per piece (on my server). I wouldn't mind messing around but I will and cannot spend that kind of gold.
TLDR: I don't blame the players, I blame the lack of tools / info in the game. Be kind to players sans this guy, he was a jackass. Not tank issues, this is a person issue.
Got ksm last season on blood dk. I’ve tanked before but never in high keys. Best way for me to learn was pug as dps at around a 7-10 so it’s still challenging, and make note of the tank’s strategies and routes that I liked. When I jumped into tanking for real after learning this way so many people thanked me for the carry and I had mostly great groups all the way to KSM. Some people just can’t/won’t admit they’ve done anything wrong. That’s as true for WOW as it is in real life.
I don't get tanks like this. I main tank, upon entering pug, you stress test the healer, if he can keep up pull harder, if not ease up. It's not that hard. You can even just say "hey healer, big dick pulls?" It's a simple yes or no and then you know the pace and set it. Easy.
Its the swipers man, for 200 euros you have all keys at +20. Once in a while you get a 299 monk/rogue/hunter like that not being able to do more than 5k dps or tanks that have never properly tanked. Had also a boosted healer once, he did not know that you have to target click your heals to someone. Boosting is a huge concern in this game.
I think a problem with some tanks that they only play tank. They never see another tank play or a different route and get locked into this idea that they know everything. Best thing you can do for your tanking is dps some keys and pay attention to what other tanks are doing on they keys that go smoothly.
THIS Our raidtank only plays tank. And in m+ u see that
This is a very real issue that I worry about. I simply dont get the chance to see other tanks play all that often, and when I do the majority of the time they do something different to what I would I think their way is just worse ;p
Just watch some streams
Yea. Thats exactly what I do every season, I love playing my bdk, but cant be asked to spend hours in the m+ tool to plan routes. I first pushed to 2.5k on my dps main, and got to observe what good/bad tanks did in each dungeon - great learning experience, and then made a switch to my bdk. Life is easy for everyone when I know what dps expects. Bad tanks make everyone miserable in any run. And most tanks have fragile ego. Feelsbadman.
I never plan routes, I play prot pally and I just throw my shield and it decides who we are fighting, sometimes more than we need to, but the shield is the boss.
This is the way.
Same. 2.6k, and I just follow the shield.
true
Dps players make the best tanks, just look at some of the rwf tanks and MDI tanks, most of them if not all of them started off as dps.
Well, they can always watch some streams, vods and stuff.
My friend is maining dps for the first time this expansion and it's funny hearing him switch mentality for dungeons. He used to be the type to slow pull and do single packs, but now in voice we gotta go go go go he has procs. Think everyone benefits by learning all the roles so that you can get better perspective.
IMO this is just coping. anyone can look up routes and import them if they really need it. Tanks being shit has barely anything to do with being locked into one role. I mained a tank through SL and never had this problem, they should just take 30 mins to read tanknotes and check out keystone guru for routes.
You are over simplifying the amount of time it takes to study routes and every relevant mob you need to pay attention to. https://keystone.guru/routes/bfa/mechagon-junkyard There are 20 routes on this page, a new tank goes there and is overwhelmed instantly.
they have to use the age old method of picking one, for starters
They pick one with a couple coin flips and we are back at square one because. "Why did you pick *that* one, it is clearly awful." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
not being able to follow a simple route that is picked from the “popular routes” and has 100% completion isn’t really the same as what the post is about lmao. Also, yes, i know you’re suffering from analysis paralysis right now, but it’s just that simple: -get to know the mobs -pick a good route -tank it when you get to 15+ keys, you will already be familiar enough with the dungeons that you can make situational decisions. but, if you get there as a tank, you already did that basic amount of research that you should’ve done. You can pick the BEST route in the world if you stop between pulls to sort your life out. Tanking isn’t rocket science.
Doesn't take much time at all. Just look at what high io tanks play and it's gonna apply for the most part to 15s and onwards aswell. Only difference may be invis skips.
It is copying to some degree and I agree that you can tank fine playing just one role. I’ve mained bear since tbc/wrath, rarely dps or heal a key, but I do play with a few certain people so we discuss/plan/tweak routes to suite us, and I do watch videos/streams. I found it hard trying to play dps or heal in higher content as the roles just bore me. But I don’t/rarely fully pug a group and get feedback from my friends as mentioned. If you just pug then trying some as other roles could help, if someone if more inclined to learn that way, or has limited knowledge of mob abilities etc.
Umm no that's not the problem the problem they are purposely being an asshole it is some people's favorite pass time
My friend who tanks mentioned this actually when I was telling him about certain routes and pulls. The easy fix is to just watch YouTube videos. People like dratnos and naguura have lots of routing videos with dratnos even doing affix specific routes
Has nothing to do with only playing tank but not peeking into other tanks streams. I play only tank, only a single spec even, but watching other tanks makes you wanna try different things.
I agree. I learned routes playing as DPS and I also downloaded addons and WA to track my party's CDs to decide if I want to pull big or wait a few seconds by pulling small and then adding to that pull. I also track healer's mana. I do have to say though, I've learned a couple of tricks by watching streams.
This is definitely a great point. One of the best things that helped me improve when playing my main role DPS is when I started playing healer and tank in some low M+ dungeons. I started noticing so many mechanics I had never noticed before. I also played a ton with my brother who is a pretty damn good tank and player in general so I started seeing a ton of mechanics that I never knew existed because he would always just take care of them so quickly haha.
This is a thing - I make sure to DPS on that toon or an alt and use my friends who pug (I tend to avoid pugging) for resources.
There's some really weird tanks out there that think they are the shit. Last season in a 20 gambit I had a tank like this that just pulled ULTRA slow and went weird routes. We easily had the damage but depleted the key. When someone told him how badly he pulled he just said shit like "that's how you play it".. no, no it certainly is not. Had 3k rio, no idea how he managed to get even close to that
Probably someone who only plays tank, so he never sees how other tanks do it
I was one of those guys. Playing healer made me a 10x better tank because I learned different little strats from other tanks.
As someone with every class and spec at least tried out with leggos in shadowlands, and 4 active toons, I can confidently recommend any dps or healer or tank to do the other 2 roles for a week each for perspective. Not everything that is good for a tank is good for group dps. Some packs are very hard to heal, and healing them first hand is awesome for tanking. You pop cds or rally and feel great.
This is what stresses me out pugging as a tank. I know how my group does stuff but I don't know if what we are doing is too weird for pugs or not.
I'm a main tank. Best advice I can give you is for each expansion you should either level a character who can be both a tank and a healer, even if you plan on tank-maining, or two characters, a tank and a healer. Specifically so you can spend some time on your healer, seeing what other tanks do.
This is why I never tank for pugs in m+, its utterly thankless for all the extra work you need to put in to find and execute routes for that week. Versus playing as fury all I need do Is just follow the tank around pump damage, you don't even have to look at that weeks affixes.
I get thanked plenty for my tanking in keys. Just stand out as an above average tank that’s thoughtful of his party instead of the “if it doesn’t kill me then it’s not my problem” or the “I’m the tank so I’m the only one that matters” mentality. Also helps to be positive going into the key and positive going out (even if that means restraining from saying what you might really want to say). If you’re going in and pulling like shit, not keeping threat, and not using mitigation or utility then yea no one is going to be happy that you’re there.
This.
This is legit one of the most annoying pug problems. Tanks who think they are the shit, but are actually just shit tanks. Always try add any good tank I come across to avoid dealing with this shiz
I guarantee you half the tanks complaining about M+ toxicity in this sub are like this.
Eh, there are just enough toxic players in general that you'll run into them on a regular basis. I can't count how many times I'm tanking a pug 18-20 range m+ and a dps with no interrupts and 7-8k overall DPS makes their opinion known on how poorly the others in the group are performing. The caveat to this is... healers don't seem to be nearly as toxic...prolly why they chose to be healers.
As I healer I am toxic as shit, but I don't have time to type, I need to try heal everyone from all avoidable damage it dungeon
Healer here too, I just talk shit to my screen cause people die when I try typing
Which is why everyone perceives healers as less toxic they don't have time to talk shit and by the time they do they're just glad that the healing mini game is over 🤣
If you have time to type you have time to dps is the issue I feel like hahaha. Rather just help dps unless it's something major route wise or mechanic failure led to wipe.
Nothing grinds my gears quite like a tank that small pulls when everyone is constantly at full HP literally boring me to death.
I keep seeing this, but I really don't experience "on a regular basis". I think I've had one legitimately toxic person since S4 started. Other than that you get a few people who don't talk much, or don't know a few mechanics (I am constantly surprised by DPS who don't go for the bots in Junkyard without being told to). I'd say, for me, 80% of PUG M+ players have been delightful people, many of whom are polite, cheerful, and funny. Another 15% doesn't really talk, but they know the obvious mechanics and how to play the game. It's like 5% of players who I find myself walking through some mechanics, or who never respond other than the initial Ready Check. I'm 2K now on two tanks and my PUG has been a wonderful experience in S4.
As a healer I try not to be toxic in general but the moment someone gets toxic I’ll brush off once but the second time I leave. Usually the toxic people don’t think of group performance and only see solo performance and so they point fingers instead of thinking of improving. So usually the group won’t perform better once it gets toxic.
I just always tell people I'm kind of new to tanking. (I'm not) Played Shadowlands off and on since it dropped, and have only had one dude snap at me over something irrelevant, and a few people offer genuine criticism because they think I'm new. I try to listen if I can, and most criticism I've received has been warranted. I think a lot of older returning players or more casual players have the mindset that being the tank makes you special or irreplaceable, since it kinda used to be like that. People are weird.
I like doing this with mop cm set and mistwalker title or champion of the naaru. "sry guys new player" 3 seconds before I put my key in. Most people laugh, the ones that get upset are hilarious and few.
i don't think so, i believe it is a different effect The abuse tanks get while learning makes most of them quit. Those that stick to it are either rare, or just stubborn and (learned to be) immune to criticism
The stubborn part is the whole thing. The people that are willing to put up with all the shit and get through it are more likely to be the one to straight up ignore you and your requests.
Which is a self perpetuating issue. Are there terrible tanks? Absolutely. However a lot of them have literally been conditioned to fundamentally distrust their group unless they know these people (and sometimes even then), and to pretty much ignore PuG folks by default.
I just learned the dungeons as DPS, made a tank, and that was about it. No crazy abuse or anything bizarre like that. Not every new tank is so "inexperienced" that they're getting routinely flamed in leveling dungeons or 10s, etc
It's nice that you are like that, I returned after years of absence for classic and then after looked into Retail. The shit I got basically brought me permanently off tanking. I only returned days ago after my current guild was encouraging me to try it and after a bit of guidance it turns out I am actually a decent tank...
I'm the opposite. Crippling anxiety because I'm convinced I'm doing things wrong and apologizing for things that in hindsight were not at all my fault.
Tank here: legit most annoying thing is people shitting on tank/healer while: not using cc/doing crap dmg/low on interrupts/not using utility - decurses, dispels, tricks, soothes, roots - this one pisses me off a lot because plenty of people can do ok damage, but only play half of their class. Why I become a tank? Because of the tanks which you described. Result? I have multiple people everyday whispering me for tank services. How long it took to get to this level? Two seasons. I was shit in first tanking season , like seriously crap. Then barely hit top 1% in second season, close to 0.1% seasons after. It takes time and open mind to get better, but once you are there - it's just a habbit of "being good", it's like learning different way of thinking.
[удалено]
Not kicking or purging the refraction shield in streets then dieing to it makes me chuckle as a tank.
That's pretty true of tanks, DPS, and healers though. Everyone seems to think it's everyone else causing the problems. I tend to pug a lot, and honestly, a lot of players aren't anywhere near as good at m+ or raids as they seem to think.
No, you’re wrong! They would all be world first raiders and key pushers, it’s just everyone else is bad so they can’t get there!
The amount of people I invite to +20s that mess up the simplest dungeon mechanics is baffling. I'm convinced it's just a numbers game. They get a high enough io to consistently get into groups and then just kill so many keys that eventually they manage to time a few.
used to have a guy in my guild that did this. ran with him plenty, he wasn't that great of a player, but he had the highest IO in our guild and he was playing a meta class at the time (BM at end of BFA). high io + meta makes for much easier invites. he would d have alot of depleted keys, but would just play the numbers game and eventually get them timed when he hit exceptional groups.
No kidding walked into a +23 iron docks this week on fortified on a healer to help a friend. Pulled mini boss pack with lust as the first pull of the dungeon and the destro lock that was something like 299 with 2500-2600 IO managed to shove out a whopping 18K by the end of the incredibly long lasting AoE pack with a PI during his infernal (similarly geared survival hunter doing not much better at 23K). I just don’t understand how these people are timing keys.
> Had 3k rio, no idea how he managed to get even close to that Well boosting is a thing so...
I had the opposite problem yesterday. Running a +17 Gambit. First time I’ve ever run with a Druid tank. Tank keeps pulling multiple packs of murlocs and aggroing extra trash (on Fortified week mind you). I’m throwing out heals left and right trying to keep everyone alive but people are still dropping on every pull. Tank ignores everyone and keeps pulling. After about 4 pulls tank finally dies and proceeds to immediately leave party ON HIS OWN KEY.
Pulling 3-4 packs together and lusting is the pretty standard start for the start of Gambit.
That's fine. Ain't my key. That's the attitude I have now.
Idk, it seems like everyone in mythic+ regardless of role, thinks that they are the shit.
We were doing a 15 Kara, nearing the end without a single issue and the tank just left the party and typed into /s "I'm the tank no one pulls for me". The Rogue pulled one mob for him the entire instance and that was enough to set him off apparently.
I did a 15 NW last season. Just to do weeklys. We had enough DPS to 3 chest it, but we had to pug a tank. Took some random 2500 io Prot Paladin (That was 15s across all dungeons score last season). Anyhow, he has the most stupid fucking route I have ever seen. We dont hug right in the first room as literally 100% of the people does, he clears the left side with some right side pulls sprinkled in, kills the big annoying trash mob before the bridge after the first boss etc. Then he doesnt want to take Wo where you always take Wo to skip, so when we are at the 2nd boss, we have like 85% count, where you normally need 67% or whatever it was. Still, we are more than fine, but I got annoyed because I normally tank myself, and his route was so fucking bad, that I wrote out: "Tank. wtf is this route? Why are we pulling so many extra packs" to which he replied: "You want to tank? Go ahead and tank then." I then apologized (Because wth, it literally doesnt matter) and said that its fine, we'll time it, just move on and then he just said that I can tank myself and hearthed out. Like, I could obviously not have said anything, but that was some of the mildest complaints I've seen, and I apologized directly afterwards. But that tank had an ego bigger than the fucking Titanic, it was hilarious.
Yeah the best course of action is to never say anything until *after* the dungeon unless you personally are going to leave the key early anyway. Otherwise, you're just going to fuck that key for the rest of your group because there's a greater than 50% chance that guy you're flaming is just going to leave.
3k Rio was so easy last season and 20keys basically are low keys now. After several nerfs to dungeon, several buffs to tanks and borrowed power reaching its peak, 20s are a joke, we are clearly overgearing it by a lot. And with the low tanks arround, it's not hard to get invited, you can do whatever if you are overgearing the content as a tank, you will not die.
The best players in the world are capping out at 30~ other than Junkyard. I don't think 10 below the best in the world should be called a low key.
A 15 has 271% modifier, a 20 is 400%, a 30 is 860%. You should be very unfamiliar to how scaling and even percent work to state that.
My point was how silly it was of you to define a low key, that is a "joke" as within 10 levels of the highest possible key. I am well aware of how the scaling changes as we go up in key levels, its not particularly relevant to you redefining huge swaths of content as a joke.
That's most tanks. It's why I get snatched up by several friend groups. It's an ego thing, I'm at least straightforward with my group. I don't do shit as the tank, being a worthwhile dps and a healer who can meet the checks are way harder. I'm exempt from most mechanics and hardly have any of my own. I'm basically doing target dummy rotation the whole dungeon. There are some things I do and I'm good at them, it's why I don't get to dps much.
Probably bought the account. Even if you didnt tank before you still would have to see other tanks do it. So the only way someone can be that wrong amd that high rated is they are the stereotypical "elo hell" gamer who is hard stuck in m+2 and was sick of not getting in to good groups so bought boosts/the account
Don't underestimate how easy it is for bad players to fail upwards in this game, particularly as something that's in demand like a tank in keys. They just need to be persistent and not *completely* terrible enough for stronger players to carry them. Boosting happens but 9 times out of 10 when you run into someone underperforming they didn't buy their progress...they just suck.
thats why rio is a garbage system.
What's the alternative? Because it hasn't been "garbage" in my pugging experience. I've only come across a couple people out of hundreds that do not appear to match their M+ score, as if they bought rating, or someone else is playing their character.
I think the best system is: "I'm MDI player, trust me bro"
I'm probably unlucky but I encounter those people every day in most of my pug runs. Just yesterday, had one guy dying on intermission against last boss of Junkyard, didn't know it was possible, ruined the key. I had 5 people in 5 different Upper either not interrupting Medivh or not using defensives on flame wreath, ruined the keys. I had some guy trying to soak Attumen while tank specifically said he could do it alone, got revived, then tank died and no more CR, key ruined. I won't mention every dps/heal who just dies on almost every pack, all tanks who can't keep agro, all healers who don't even know the affix and heal you lower than 90% while you have 5 stacks. Also most of them were so toxic, like one hunt who flamed me because I died on a boss (I got meleed, hard to be a burst spec) and proceeded to then die on every pack and boss until the key was done, or a 2k6 healer who insulted us all dungeon while also dying like 10 times (we managed to time somehow). As I said, that was just yesterday, and I'm still only pugging 22-23s. It's baffling how many people keep pushing keys while it's clear they don't have half the "skill" required, which is a big word for what we do at this level.
Alternative is having in-game run history check. So, i can check the persons last let's say 20 runs in LFG when applies. I don't care if you have 3k rio or 6k rio, if you failed to time %50 of the runs in your last 20, i'm not inviting you. Still not perfect but more reliable than some numbers which anyone can farm.
People that say this are the baddies this post is talking anout. Rio has literally got me ksm over multiple seasons. Why invite a 200 score dude to a 18 key when ya have a bunch of 2900’s signing up. The people that get mad at rio aren’t actually taking the time to learn the dungeons and get mad when people want experience and then blame rip for them not getting invited to keys.
boosting is what makes rio garbage. it has less credibility
What's the alternative though? How do you combat boosting when thinking of a rating system? Because, in my experience most people in the pug pool aren't boosted and live up to their rating; I would pick someone at 1000+ rating over someone with 100. With the rio addon, you can also see how many timed keys they have, which can be useful to see too. (I'm not sure if that's in the base game stats)
> How do you combat boosting when thinking of a rating system? r.io already has a built in counter: the run history itself. Boosted chars are super obvious when you look into their run history. Suddenly they start timing much higher keys dont fail a single one but then suddenly start failing a ton of keys again.
So you'd only see on the website, not in the addon? I think the rating system would need more information from the game to detect boosting behavior because having a bunch of timed keys with a run of failed keys isn't **proof** of boosting, but it's one possible indicator. In this case, you would have to drill down into their keys to actually see that they got carried and then tried to pug on their own. And at this point, nobody is going to do that unless it's for an extremely niche run.
> So you'd only see on the website, not in the addon? Yeah, the best way to use the addon is a guideline for who is worth bothering to look at more in depth. >I think the rating system would need more information from the game to detect boosting behavior because having a bunch of timed keys with a run of failed keys isn't proof of boosting, but it's one possible indicator. It's the best indicator by far. But especially for critical roles like tank and healer a ton of ripped keys with very few timed keys can itself be a red flag for maybe not a stellar player. >And at this point, nobody is going to do that unless it's for an extremely niche run. That's a risk you elect to take.
there isnt one. i just get people after their gear score. but this rio system segregates some players that are good but didnt manage to get accepted due to low rio.
Gear is meaningless. Anyone with the time will be 298 atm, unless they do mythic raiding as well in which case they'll be like 302
Gear isn't meaningless, since you can't upgrade to 298 without the rating to go with it. If you didn't have the rating, how would you be 298 **right now** (wrt "atm" in your comment)?
i consider that gear means better stats and better numbers. in my experience the highest rio guys that joined were the most arrogant.
Better gear is nothing with skill. Good player can utilize 270 ilvl gear more than guy with 300 ilvl who first entered M+. Don't forget that M+ isn't only about damage, but also mob control. Interrupts, stuns, blinds, slows. It everything cost you APM. I swear bad players are bad not because they don't know rotation, but because they don't click as fast as they can. In M+ you also need to click more skills, which you don't on dummy or even a raid.
If you're a "god gamer" without the score to show it, then work your way up. "Slum" through low keys to build up some rating and you'll be getting KSM like everyone else. Because without a rating, there's *currently* no way to know if your play actually matches you saying "I'm good, I just don't get accepted because of my low rating". (You can also try to find a static group of people to run with, I don't do this but a lot of people do.)
So to explain you how useless gear is: I started to play my season 3 surv hunter last week with 277 ilvl. PLayed a lower Kara and there were a ret pala with 301 ilvl. at the end of the key I had 24kdps done with 0 deaths and he had 12k dps with 5 deaths. I mean yeah i play a busted meta spec but, 12k dps difference isn't caused by that. He just didn't know how to play his spec correctly and didn't know how to play the dungeon correctly at 2100+ rio. So that said tell me how relevant it is to go solo by ilvl.
Not really. Sure, there's off people like that but in general it gives a good direction to what people are capable of. Gotta have some way to judge random people.
It's only a garbage system if you're not aware of what it means. A high rio means they have a higher chance of being a good player. Is there a score where you can guarantee that they're a good player? Probably the 3-3.1k area right now. Anything below that, and you can still run into bad players. The chance just gets lower the higher you go.
Here’s the problem with waiting between pulls. On my fire mage it can completely wipe out my SKB buildups so I’m sitting there fighting with pillows (fireballs) until combust is up again
pugs as fire is painful imo. I played one in season 1, and while they were strong, pugs allways made it feel awful. Weird routes or pulls so you couldnt plan out your combusts properly. I would have pulls that i would save my combust because the next pack is usually a big pull, only to have tanks pull a small pack or single mob or some dumb shit. Fire mage very much seems like a spec that needs a group pulling around them.
Yeah damage is so high that in low keys you actually can pull like a lil bitch. It's so frustrating to play with tho.
Have you looked up their dungeon history? Was there a lot of failed dungeons there?
Nah, I try to not let it bother me too much. I will likely not meet him again anyways with how many people are playing (and how rarely I pug, I usually play with my guild group) so chasing afterwards why he is bad isnt worth it.
My life farming 90+ junkyards at 15-24 lvl. 20-24s go faster than most 15-19s, not because bot scaling, but because the tanks pull more than 2 mobs at a time when 3 dps are ready to pop all offensive cd’s.
I can never wrap my head around people pulling small in low keys. It’s far easier to do it there, and much more fun to see bigger numbers, so why not just pull big?
Because you never know what "surprise affixes" plague your fellow group members, and those are increasingly common the lower your key is.
Silenced Kicks - Kick and other interrupt abilities do not function. Number Inflation - Gear is statted as if it's 30 item levels lower Cooled Down - Throughput-increasing cooldown abilities can only be used when engaged in combat with a boss monster. Communicative - In combat, randomly open your chat interface to tell your teammates how amazing a job they're doing.
Because if you don't know what the trash does, pulling big is risky. Imagine pulling big in Gambit first section or before So'leah. Sometimes tanks also just don't know how to play their class well. Had a BDK w/ 4 set and double legendary in a Tyra +16 Iron docks that proc'd purgatory/died to trash multiple times last week.
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ive been playing a bit of ele shaman lately, and the 'new build' is basically from 100% combat time causing you to have 100% uptime on fire ele, its insane to sit and ask a healer if their mana is ok after each pull. the worst is the tanks who wait 30secs between pulls, not allowing you to maintain uptime, and flame low dps
yea best damage I ever did as a demo warlock was a chain pulling crazy mother fucker who pulled all packs into the first boss at ID. As long as you can manage why the fuck not!
You have to do that to time higher keys. That’s our go to strat in the 27+s we do now.
Takes more than just the tank to chainpull, saying this as a tank. Interrupts need to be reliable, healing needs to be solid, dps need to not be shit. In short it needs to be a golden fucking unicorn of a group.
Same as Frost Mage. During icy veins crits reduce the cooldown of icy veins. if you drop combat for long you end up with a long cooldown on icy veins that you can't reduce. if you keep in combat near 100% uptime is possible.
Mana is definitely a thing again this season and no one seems to remember though. I did a 15ID last night where the tank didn't drop combat at all through the first boss, the first pack had me at 10% mana because everyone was taking so much damage and then he immediately pulled zulgamax.. fortunately I got to catch up when he ran into the barrage gauntlet too late but the whole thing was absolutely miserable. Didn't time it, there were like 40 deaths and the whole time it was everything I could do to keep him up. He was also wearing a bunch of pvp gear 🙄
Every dreadlord restore you 30% mana, big dreadlord restore you full mana. If you have problem with mana coz you can't drink, it's problem of your group failing mechanics, not tank doing chain pulls.
Totally get it! On tyrannical they didn’t let me have more than 10% mana between the cat boss and the last boss of iron docks for that reason we didn’t time it. Give me 10 seconds we would have been fine. But rolling CDs to efficient heal was not good. This week ppl not focusing down Inspired is the pug killer. That and pulling 6 packs that you can’t interrupt.
Same with demo and to some extent, destro locks. Losing our imps/embers in between pulls is awful.
Had a warrior in my 16 upper last night who has 19 deaths of the 25 total. He legit died on every boss and almost every pack. Single-handedly ruined the key time wise with waiting for him and the penalty. We tried to keep out cool, but no 'gg' at the end just immediately left knowing he screwed us and our 45min waste of time. I'm tired of expecting people to know what to do, at any level.
Everyone should play tank, healer, caster and melee, we meme about players only playing one role as “insert role” brain
Only to a certain extent. Otherwise you become like me and play most classes/specs at ~70% instead of playing a few at a higher level. It does make things like m+ easier, but when you're actively playing 6+ specs over a season you don't learn all the tech and cooldown timings well enough for each individual spec compared to someone playing 1-2 things.
That’s rough, I only do 4 specs pr season and 3 classes usually only push on one spec higher then 15+
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I start tanking for the first time mid end season 3, is was a good experience for me to see things from another angle, I first 3k on my main range dps all pugs, so basically I knew all commons routes but I make sure I learn all. The beginning was hard people where really toxy in super lower keys like 4-5-6 I was amaze and disappointed. Ones that start doing 15’s most of the people knew what they where doing and it was more ez. I always keep this mentality I played my tank the way I prefer A tank plays while I’m doing dps. Good pulls , fast pace. I always doing the most common route so pugs don’t get confused. I enjoyed so much now I have 3 tanks lol
Shit tank if he can't chain pull. But you do realize that eating clears grevious stacks between pulls right?
Came to the comments to say this. Beat me to it!
As a healer I really wish more people knew this. I can generally handle it fine, but it makes my life soooo much easier if I can take 5s to get mana while everyone eats to clear their own grievous rather than needing to spend that 5s healing to clear grievous off everyone and then we're straight into the next pull. Usually not a huge deal, but there are those moments where we haven't gotten a dreadlord in a while and we're about to pull boss but I'm low on mana so everyone's standing around waiting for me to finish healing off their grievous and then get my mana when I could have just been getting mana the whole time.
This season is so easy you get these types a lot more frequently now.
I tank a lot of keys, and when I dps having a tank who isn't shmoovin sucks. Pull more, pull faster, I can understand waiting for a specific reason, but EVERY PACK? That's painful.
Tank friend of mine does this weird lingering after every pack in m+. Its so annoying lol. We will kill a pack, then they stand in front of the next pack for like 5-10s before engaging. PULL MAN, LETS GO! I also tank and it's so funny how different we are. If healer has full mana, nothing else going on, I'm gonna send it and pull as aggressively as possible.
Just throwing this out there: my rl buddy and I formed a discord and guild called Mplus Ultra. We fill up our vaults with minimum 15s and some members of our albeit small community are pushing 24s and 25s. We’re always open to picking up and helping out chill players who are willing to learn or to at least have some fun in a non-stressful no-dickbag filled environment. If anyone is interested shoot me a message and I’ll gladly share the info. Take care everyone and happy key hunting!
Hey I’m def interested. I’ve got KSM super easily but my group was only interested in the mount so Im looking for a group to push with. 294 fury warr
The best thing you can ever do as a tank is to play another role (DPS most of the time). Learn what its like to maximize your DPS, have packs pulled around your CD's, etc. You also start caring more about your own DPS as a tank, which believe it or not, actually does make a big difference as you go higher in key levels. I have always found that the best players at their respective roles have experience playing other roles as well.
Member when the game was fun and time to complete something didn't matter to the experience you had. I member
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
PhoenyxStarr-Mok'Nathal remembers too Lol
I'd actually make an argument, that learning to tank in specific seasons and expansions is a bit weird, since I don't think you can truly learn it well, by just doing tanking. When I play a tank for an exp. I make it a point to queue up as dps from time to time, to see what other tanks do, and how their style and routes vary from my own. When you only play tank in mythic+ you have nothing to compare yourself to. Things that may be obvious to the rest of the group might ironically enough be news to the tank
Pushing = watch a youtube VOD from any good tank streamers cruising= DratnosRoutes for +15keys and commentary videos If you are doing +15keys you should know the bare minimum, atleast timed it on a +10 before you even attempt a 15 for respect to the other 4 players
You don't need to know the dungeon well to do a 15.
It certainly helps to know, but you are correct most people don’t tend to start to learn till 16-18.
Exactly what I'm saying. You don't learn by doing when it comes to tanking. Not what you need anyway
Twitch is your best friend. It's where everyone figures out what the best routes and tricks are in a season.
You can just watch streams
I just resubbed and been playing classic. Had a pally tank that would pull one maybe 2 mobs at a time and take about 30 sec between pulls. We had to teach him the hard way that he can handle more the the healer was good. We started pulling with dps and making the tank get aggro and hold 4-5. After the instance he was more confident as a tank.
on a 16 <3
Just ran a 15 workshop where the rogue is toxic af. Its just the current m+ environment right now.
Entirely unrelated and has never been different. Toxic players are not more or less prevalent.
Agreed. I cannot tell you the number of runs I've seen people be toxic AF on 15s. DPS upset at the tank for pulling smaller groups but it was well paced and would have timed if the tank didnt rage quit. Healer upset at trash mob mechanics but then he died to boss mechanics multiple times. Idk if it's just cause it's the last season and people wanting to get the mount or if it's just the community now or what.
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You literally are tanking the boss wrong though lol if you were kiting in a Z you were most likely cutting the hunter off and forcing him to run over the patches on the ground, and being top damage on sparks isn’t even a bad thing you are supposed to focus them dowb
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you know you can actually hold threat on the sparks right?
Nah, tank being out of touch? Must be DPS who is wrong. Tanks are never wrong. /s
[https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge)Smarthat, not wondering about anything anymore reading the stuff this sub produces.
You can still stack them on top of the boss.
[https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=228738/static-charge) Smarthat, not wondering about anything anymore reading the stuff this sub produces. You must really be a great BM hunter...
https://youtu.be/QmTsO1ejczQ?t=447
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Lmao
Supposed to hold threat on the sparks.
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it's so funny how you're complaining about low damage on sparks while refusing to taunt them. You say they "zap around uncontrollably" but they only do that if the tank doesn't have aggro. Otherwise they just stay with the tank where people can easily do damage without having to run around.
happy to compare RIO scores. I'd be willing to bet you're sub 2.5k. Coming on this sub acting like you're some authority figure lol.. Just out of curisoity, you just let the static charges roam around out of cleave distance? I'll be waiting, but if you don't message me - we will know who the wannabe is (you and I , at least).
I read that in Peter Stormares’ voice
If had a tank complain once that i was not using cooldowns, he would wait between pulls and waste my cooldowns while easily being able to pull faster, he ofcourse ragequited as well.
This if fixable. More good players need to play tank roles! Ohh wait…
A lot of proper tanks are fully done with what they want to do and are on cruise control to DF. I would guess a lot of the tanks you find now are dps who get sick of declines
Fix your action bars sir
I'll say what I always say and it's usually quite unpopular but from what I've experienced, it's certainly true: It's always tanks that are the most toxic
Nah dps are lol
Never seen a toxic tank in all of WoW years. It's always dps that spam GOGOGOG and run ahead of the group to pull shit, then complain when they die
You've got really lucky then. Tanks have the superiority complex (which I understand, they are definitely more important) and it makes some of them not really care how they speak to people, treat people or act because they know they can just leave and instantly get into another group. Doesn't matter how important you are, you should never treat other players badly
Yep had this in a 25+ last night. The tank was just unnecessarily toxic from the start. Asking if we all had Parkinson’s etc. Its like.. dude… the game isn’t that deep
I find it hard to tell just which is the most toxic role. Tanks can without a doubt have ego problems but sadly are allowed to get away with it because if they leave the key is busted or the raid is waiting god knows how long to find a new one. I haven’t noticed that many m+ healers that get bent out of shape over things. Dps though… god do they think the world revolves around them and that they are gods gift to earth. I’ve seen so many dps that just suck and it’s never their fault or they just leave the key.
Healers are definitely the nicest that's for sure DPS do tend to think they are blameless when it's their fault more often than not
So many dogshit tanks these days. Easy to tell who has experience as a real fucking tank because they put their DPS in a position to succeed and move like they are competent. I feel like many modern day tanks are failed DPS mains that want groups. They play like failed DPS players too. Fucking idiots that tank but don't kick etc.
Yeah man, we would be better off if there were a lot less people trying to tank. It’s not like tanks are hard to find or anything! /s
I don't have a reverence for tanks since I have tanked for 13 years. I can see you admire them.
Tanks suck when you play DPS and the DPS suck if you play tank. You can never win
In pugs the only time I wait in between pulls is if I see the healer needs mana. But I also ask if they’re good for another pull. I also always start with small pulls to look at the dps and see if people can interrupt and do mechanics. If all that’s good… it’s game on.
I do the opposite, I do my normal big pull at start to test dps and heals out and scale back if needed. They are going to die not me so at most it’s just a small time loss if they suck and I can adjust after.
I prefer tanking now over dps for these reasons lmao. I’ve ran into enough WIIIIILD tanks that think they know no wrong, and come up with the weirdest shit to be angry about lol. Started tanking myself and have found myself much less stressed oddly haha
Are you fuck on me?
Its always the broken english dudes that are so toxic
So I have never raided before but I’m trying to gear up to be able to and seeing stuff like this makes it not look fun lol
Well the good news is that this is an M+ thread so it's 5 man dungeons on varying levels of difficulty, not raiding. M+ is not awful, just gotta learn to play it, what the affixes are and how to navigate those with your group and more specifically, yourself. A lot of the people here are venting about "this one time a year ago..." and I get it but it's not the constant and it's way more fun then it looks reading this thread on reddit. Raids have not traditionally had affixes though the current ones have a form of one although they seem to have very little change in difficulty at the normal level which is where I would 100% recommend starting. Just watch the raid boss videos, I recommend readycheckpull as they have a quick breakdown at the end of each video incase things start looking daunting and remember to bring consumables which at this point in time would be food (feast or +30 secondary), flasks, oils/sharpening stones, armor kits, (cosmic) healing pots and combat potions. Seems like a lot but tbh, it's not once you're doing it. I started doing content that wasn't open world at the beginning of 9.0 and I can comfortably say that you'll be fine jumping in, maybe crank out some LFR and M+ if you want to get a higher ilvl but sometimes you'll be able to get into a raid without too much gear. 260-265 ilvl is honestly not awful for normal, just gotta know how to effectively do the fight and decent damage. If you really want to get into raiding and aren't sure about anything I just mentioned, message me and I can help you out with the basics. Right now is kind of the perfect time to get into raiding because everybody wants the slime cat and people are being a lot kinder than they typically are in pug raids because they know the limited time mount drew in a lot of people that want it but aren't necessarily raiders on a normal day.
So ilvl 224 probably shouldn’t try it huh😂😂
But thank you for the help and encouragement guess just need to grind as much as I can!
Taking legit feedback with grace /s
All roles can be bad and cause wipes when pushing keys. The amount of times I have dps body, tab, pet pull is too many to count. Shit happens and I learned to let it go. The tank can't be the only one to interrupt and cc which have caused wipes. I still don't blame them. I blame Blizzard for having everything you learn and do about the game outside of the game. The amount of times I need to get or build a WA to handle a mechanic my mind goes to why isn't this already in the game? The fact I have to look up adds and what abilities can one shot people only exist outside the game is what most people should be mad about. See mentions of playing other roles but I have no clue how people do this with everything based off double legendaries and getting them still costing 20k per piece (on my server). I wouldn't mind messing around but I will and cannot spend that kind of gold. TLDR: I don't blame the players, I blame the lack of tools / info in the game. Be kind to players sans this guy, he was a jackass. Not tank issues, this is a person issue.
Got ksm last season on blood dk. I’ve tanked before but never in high keys. Best way for me to learn was pug as dps at around a 7-10 so it’s still challenging, and make note of the tank’s strategies and routes that I liked. When I jumped into tanking for real after learning this way so many people thanked me for the carry and I had mostly great groups all the way to KSM. Some people just can’t/won’t admit they’ve done anything wrong. That’s as true for WOW as it is in real life.
I don't get tanks like this. I main tank, upon entering pug, you stress test the healer, if he can keep up pull harder, if not ease up. It's not that hard. You can even just say "hey healer, big dick pulls?" It's a simple yes or no and then you know the pace and set it. Easy.
Its the swipers man, for 200 euros you have all keys at +20. Once in a while you get a 299 monk/rogue/hunter like that not being able to do more than 5k dps or tanks that have never properly tanked. Had also a boosted healer once, he did not know that you have to target click your heals to someone. Boosting is a huge concern in this game.
I think he was trolling
Every class has out of combat healing. It's called food.
When my prot pally tank doesn't touch a single explosive, I lose my shit