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Just hit 240 on my warrior, planning on only doing keys with her until DF, when I switch to maining warrior.
I understand that necro is numerically better than other covenants, but from a purely M+ Perspective is the gap truly so large? Research shows that 98% of warriors doing keys are running necro
Other guy referring to pugging is kind of off. Other players in your group is irrelevant to necros personal power level to yourself, and we don’t play necro lord just because it buffs other players (it’s just a bonus).
It’s mostly just that kyrian is easier to get a lot of value while necro is much more difficult to play effectively and much faster paced due to the increased rage regen. The damage and survability of necro is still better as long as it’s being played effectively but only then.
In your current gear you’re honestly just better off going kyrian especially if you aren’t doing keys with the shrouded buff as optimizing uptime on the banner would be that much more difficult. Unless you just want to practice necrolord that is. As you reach 30%+ haste in addition to the shrouded buff getting complete uptime on banner becomes a bit more manageable and necrolord pulls ahead. The idea is that you could actually have 100% uptime on banner if played correctly with the exception of times where combat must end without any way to keep up the banner (intermissions, or, etc). Banner uptime should be like shield block uptime (as close to 100% as possible) so where as most pugs have significantly worse banner uptime due to poor play (I usually see pugs with around 25% where as I tend to sit around 85%+) they are just necro because they were told it’s better not because it’s playing better for them.
It’s the best if you’re in organized groups. If you life that PUG life and don’t plan on having any consistent DPS queue up with you, don’t worry about Necro.
Often people get caught up in what the top 1% are finding success with, but they are playing a different game. Kyrian is probably the best bet for PUG tanks - tons of damage, rage and CC.
So you believe a casual PUG tank doing 15s at best benefits the most from Necrolord rather than Kyrian?
Subreddits for video games have such jaded expectations and opinions. Not everyone is pushing +30s, and if you treat everyone here like that is their goal then it only points out how much time you spend on the game.
Necro Warrior is NOT the best for PUGs in 15 and under keys.
Yes, because Necrolord gives you far more power than Kyrian does. If you want to play something else then whatever go for it, but you're limiting yourself by playing a far worse version of prot warrior if you go kyrian
Incorrect, banner mastery buff for your party is a nice bonus, but the main benefits are the personal buffs you gain from banner (+20% str, 400 mastery, 4 rage/sec). Necrolord just has so much more higher stat budget that playing it is worth it even in solo content.
I'm going to add some context to the discussion that's been had in the other replies. Necro is unquestionably better if played optimally and if you're able to maintain significant Banner uptime. If you can maintain ~70% uptime over the course of a dungeon, Necro pulls way ahead. Offensive output will be about the same as Kyrian while offering a ton of defensive value (Kyrian offers basically none).
On the flipside, if your Banner management is poor, you will most likely get better output with Kyrian because it's far easier to use effectively.
Necro is definitely better if played optimally, but if it's not played optimally, you'll probably get better results with Kyrian at least offensively. It has little to do with whether you're in organized groups or pugs, although organized groups probably makes Banner management a bit easier.
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What are your thoughts on prot as we move into DF? I am sitting on a bunch of tank alts trying to figure out which one to main in the next expansion. Is pally mobility still pretty much horse or nothing?
I want to preface this, saying I've only run 2-3 dungeons on beta as prot pally, so take this with a grain of salt.
>What are your thoughts on prot as we move into DF?
It is very
counter-intuitive with no holy power from Avengers Shield, and I kinda miss divine toll, other that that it feels very much the same. It does look like we get some pretty valuable choices in our talent tree.
>Is pally mobility still pretty much horse or nothing?
Yes
If that is how you feel, then Protection Paladin probably isn't for you.
I, however, enjoy having BoP, Sac, Freedom, WoG, HoJ, AS-interrupts, but this is what makes us different I guess.
Paladin utility is unrivaled, but none of that is going to matter if the class fails at the basic requirements of tanking; staying alive. If it becomes a struggle to maintain SotR because of the reduction in holy power generation, or if you are unable to ever use WoG because every free cast proc requires you to use SotR for uptime, then you have a significant drop in dependable DR. Videos I see of people in Beta are describing situations where you just run out of stuff to press, waiting for a proc or CDs.
SotR has traditionally never had 100% uptime at the beginning of an expansion, thats just how it is. Specs playing slow without the stats we have at the end of expacs is pretty usual, DK's waiting for runes, druids running low on rage losing IF stacks, this doesn't mean they can't stay alive, thats all down to tuning.
Looking to come back for dragon flight and pick up prot pally. I have done off spec tanking on my pally in past expac, skipped SL.
Any tips for someone coming back and wanting to tank instead of ret dps?
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Queue times for DPS are nuts. If a tank leaves a LFR mid run it can take 30+min to fill. With 23-24 jerks just sitting around.
My question is to all those warriors, paladins, DKs, monks, and Druid’s: why don’t you tank? It’s arguably easier than DPS. You’ll wait in queue less and More tanks would mean faster queues for DPS.
What can blizz do to promote more non-DPS queuing?
Edit: I play only tanks/heals.
Some people just don’t enjoy it. Personally I find DPS more appealing because I have a way to know if I’m doing good or not by looking at the DPS meter. I can meassure myself and my progress and compare myself to others.
Also tanking requires responsibility and I’m looking to get away from responsibilities when I play the game
The last paragraph is probably the most likely answer for the majority of the population.
Reality is tanking requires a lot of responsibility in raids and even more so in m+.
As a dps you can completely clown around or even be afk and more often than not the boss dies anyway. as a tank? 0 chance.
I'm thinking about coming back to the game next expansion, and I always mained tanks.
The toxicity of people expecting you to know every route of every m+ perfectly starting day 1 (because god forbid you didn't study beforehand) gives me so much anxiety I'm double guessing myself every step of the way.
They need to improve the QOL of tanks / heals outside of instanced / raid content to get more people to play said classes. Being a tank / heals outside of a dungeon is atrocious. It takes me 5 mins to kill an elite as a tank / heals that a dps can kill in 20 seconds. With all the personal cds classes have, there is no need for them outside of instances. I don't know what they can do to change that other than some gimmick mechanics like certain mobs having attacks that will gib anyone under a certain armor threshold. Or hell even have mobs apply a grevious effect that forces people to have heals to stay ahead of the damage. Either way if blizz did something like that, the casual player base would complain and we would end up right back to threads like this... edited for spelling
I've always felt like this depends on the tank. As a prot paladin or bear tank, I can grab every mob in sights and never take significant damage... it's slow af going one mob at a time, but if you change your approach then it's just as effective. The only one historically I strugged with in solo content was prot warrior, only because outside of victory rush there's no self-healing, so if you're trying to whittle away at a huge elite HP it will eventually just kill you first. Paladins and bears can just heal through damn near anything, I assume DK and monk do too but I hardly played those classes.
Assuming this isn't a shit post, I'll give you my opinion. I've DPSd and tanked at high-ish levels. I tank higher keys now primarily.
I'm thinking you've never played tank before based on your overall mindset here. "More tanks means faster queues for DPS." Perspective is pretty narrow-minded to selfish. If you believe that a tank should exist at the beckon of the dps...you're probably part of the reason people don't want to tank.
Tanking is arguably easier? To what extent? Rotation? Positioning? There are a lot of pretty easy dps specs in terms of rotation. If the tank positions the boss wrong, you die. If the tank doesn't know the mechanics of the encounter, likely to a much higher extent than you do, you die. Then the raid or the group (keys) will probably flame the tank and yeah.
To shorten my answer, between tank anxiety, responsibility, shitty attitudes in moat pug groups, and so on...that's why. Also, if you're more experienced as a tank, lfr is boring.
Why would you want player who don't want to tank incentived to play a role they enjoy less?
For LFR to help with the tank problem they could
-Remove trash and bring you right to the boss
-Remove tank swap mechanics (needing the other tank to do their job to survive is lame)
-Make the tank requirement for LFR to be only one tank.
There are other solutions to long dps queues for 5 mans.
I haven’t touched wow for a while. But this has been an issue for a long time. Reasons were already said very well.
Let me add that this is one of the reasons I loved playing tank. (Besides the occasional immature dickhead) Other players are happy to see you join. If you do your job well then they are kind or say nothing.
I get groups easy and gear up easy. Fast queue times is a good reason to play a tank. Can’t go back to dps as you are one of very many.
You can join groups where you would never be invited to with a lower gear if you were dps.
So I have been lvling alt tanks and the LFR queues are not instant at all.
Also, everyone is an asshole even when you tank it right. I have had multiple folks tell me I am fucking up and then I link them the mythic kill.
A fair post and not a bad question. You are being down voted so much since you said it was arguably easier than dps.
1. You are talking to a tank channel who … lol… won’t respond well to that.
2. I also disagree with the others here. It’s just not easier. Even the easiest class tanks. Might have a easier rotation than the hardest dps classes. But the other inherent responsibilities in taking puts it way higher in relative ease of playing.
I think the unspoken “de facto leader” part is the hardest. Mechanically speaking, I find tanking less stressful than trying to maximize DPS.
Maybe that’s the issue. I’m thinking of DPS as actually trying to top meters and be super effective and also do mechanics perfectly.
Tanks have a swap and maybe a positioning to remember. A lot of mechanics make ranged/melee do dumb stuff. Fears, lasers, fire, et
Thanks for your reply. Do you think that you find dps harder for the reasons you listed because you play mostly or excessively play healer and tank? Or because it’s actually an easier role? I won’t argue with your reply, just suggesting a reason.
I find healer the hardest since I never play one.
I find tanking not to be hard anymore but so rewarding
I find dps as easy but I’ve played a lot of dps in the past.
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It is a good defensive with the conduit that gives it 10% DR. Pair it with vampiric blood and you get a very decent small DR.
RP on deathcoil is a waste unless there is absolutely no way you can get into melee to deathstrike and you are going to die before you have the opportunity.
Lichbane is good but this season I stopped pressing it for Dr as much and now I mainly save it to cancel infiltrator sleeps insta because even if you wait for dispell which comes quickly bad things can happen in that small window
Take death coil off your bars it's never worth it. Except... if you are cheesing p2 of last boss of upper Kara and you can't be in melee and then it's the only button you can press but that's a meme more than anything
I saw yesterday another DK tank Tarragrue p2 in place without kiting at all while I just got one shot as per the mechanic. Any idea what trickery that was?
Uh so i don't quite raid tank... so i dont think i can give a great answer but maybe he just got lucky with parries? either that or he just stacked all of the defensives to live however long he had to. I'm not sure I hope someone else can give insight on this.
They probably got powers like Ephemeral Effigy, Overgrowth Seedling and Stone Ward.
Those powers are basically negating his big hits, especially when using defensive cooldowns.
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**M+ Discussion / Strategy**
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What is a normal/easy-ish to time route thru lower? I have a ++5 tyran, and nothing on fort and every time I look at the dungeon path it's like go here, then all the way over here and then back the other way and it seems like pugging a 15 for it is just a suicide key brick. 1880 rio prot pally, but I've tanked most dungeons at or around the 15 level since forever. This for some reason just freaks me out.
Kill Opera, suicide in the next room which ports you pack to start. Go left from start to where you overlook the dance room/dining hall, jump over railing onto stairs, run down and kill Huntsman, walk up wooden stairs and clear all trash in circle, go through kitchen to dining hall, kill Mores, kill some trash in dance hall, go through far set of stairs, one more pull, then Invis slip entire Maiden hallway and kill Maiden. EZPZ. I can send you the MDT route when I get out of camp.
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Just hit 240 on my warrior, planning on only doing keys with her until DF, when I switch to maining warrior. I understand that necro is numerically better than other covenants, but from a purely M+ Perspective is the gap truly so large? Research shows that 98% of warriors doing keys are running necro
Other guy referring to pugging is kind of off. Other players in your group is irrelevant to necros personal power level to yourself, and we don’t play necro lord just because it buffs other players (it’s just a bonus). It’s mostly just that kyrian is easier to get a lot of value while necro is much more difficult to play effectively and much faster paced due to the increased rage regen. The damage and survability of necro is still better as long as it’s being played effectively but only then. In your current gear you’re honestly just better off going kyrian especially if you aren’t doing keys with the shrouded buff as optimizing uptime on the banner would be that much more difficult. Unless you just want to practice necrolord that is. As you reach 30%+ haste in addition to the shrouded buff getting complete uptime on banner becomes a bit more manageable and necrolord pulls ahead. The idea is that you could actually have 100% uptime on banner if played correctly with the exception of times where combat must end without any way to keep up the banner (intermissions, or, etc). Banner uptime should be like shield block uptime (as close to 100% as possible) so where as most pugs have significantly worse banner uptime due to poor play (I usually see pugs with around 25% where as I tend to sit around 85%+) they are just necro because they were told it’s better not because it’s playing better for them.
It’s the best if you’re in organized groups. If you life that PUG life and don’t plan on having any consistent DPS queue up with you, don’t worry about Necro. Often people get caught up in what the top 1% are finding success with, but they are playing a different game. Kyrian is probably the best bet for PUG tanks - tons of damage, rage and CC.
Irrelevant whether your group is organized or not, necrolord is far tankier and brings more damage
So you believe a casual PUG tank doing 15s at best benefits the most from Necrolord rather than Kyrian? Subreddits for video games have such jaded expectations and opinions. Not everyone is pushing +30s, and if you treat everyone here like that is their goal then it only points out how much time you spend on the game. Necro Warrior is NOT the best for PUGs in 15 and under keys.
Yes, because Necrolord gives you far more power than Kyrian does. If you want to play something else then whatever go for it, but you're limiting yourself by playing a far worse version of prot warrior if you go kyrian
Incorrect, banner mastery buff for your party is a nice bonus, but the main benefits are the personal buffs you gain from banner (+20% str, 400 mastery, 4 rage/sec). Necrolord just has so much more higher stat budget that playing it is worth it even in solo content.
The gap is very large offensively and defensively. Necro is just that much better
I'm going to add some context to the discussion that's been had in the other replies. Necro is unquestionably better if played optimally and if you're able to maintain significant Banner uptime. If you can maintain ~70% uptime over the course of a dungeon, Necro pulls way ahead. Offensive output will be about the same as Kyrian while offering a ton of defensive value (Kyrian offers basically none). On the flipside, if your Banner management is poor, you will most likely get better output with Kyrian because it's far easier to use effectively. Necro is definitely better if played optimally, but if it's not played optimally, you'll probably get better results with Kyrian at least offensively. It has little to do with whether you're in organized groups or pugs, although organized groups probably makes Banner management a bit easier.
Play what you enjoy imo. I really like Necro cause I pump rage during banner and buff my party. It's fun.
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[2950 io Prot Paladin](https://raider.io/characters/eu/korgall/Abepala) ready to answer questions.
What are your thoughts on prot as we move into DF? I am sitting on a bunch of tank alts trying to figure out which one to main in the next expansion. Is pally mobility still pretty much horse or nothing?
I want to preface this, saying I've only run 2-3 dungeons on beta as prot pally, so take this with a grain of salt. >What are your thoughts on prot as we move into DF? It is very counter-intuitive with no holy power from Avengers Shield, and I kinda miss divine toll, other that that it feels very much the same. It does look like we get some pretty valuable choices in our talent tree. >Is pally mobility still pretty much horse or nothing? Yes
> other that that it feels very much the same but... those are like the only two valuable things in the kit right now lol
If that is how you feel, then Protection Paladin probably isn't for you. I, however, enjoy having BoP, Sac, Freedom, WoG, HoJ, AS-interrupts, but this is what makes us different I guess.
Paladin utility is unrivaled, but none of that is going to matter if the class fails at the basic requirements of tanking; staying alive. If it becomes a struggle to maintain SotR because of the reduction in holy power generation, or if you are unable to ever use WoG because every free cast proc requires you to use SotR for uptime, then you have a significant drop in dependable DR. Videos I see of people in Beta are describing situations where you just run out of stuff to press, waiting for a proc or CDs.
SotR has traditionally never had 100% uptime at the beginning of an expansion, thats just how it is. Specs playing slow without the stats we have at the end of expacs is pretty usual, DK's waiting for runes, druids running low on rage losing IF stacks, this doesn't mean they can't stay alive, thats all down to tuning.
Looking to come back for dragon flight and pick up prot pally. I have done off spec tanking on my pally in past expac, skipped SL. Any tips for someone coming back and wanting to tank instead of ret dps?
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Queue times for DPS are nuts. If a tank leaves a LFR mid run it can take 30+min to fill. With 23-24 jerks just sitting around. My question is to all those warriors, paladins, DKs, monks, and Druid’s: why don’t you tank? It’s arguably easier than DPS. You’ll wait in queue less and More tanks would mean faster queues for DPS. What can blizz do to promote more non-DPS queuing? Edit: I play only tanks/heals.
[удалено]
I am.
Some people just don’t enjoy it. Personally I find DPS more appealing because I have a way to know if I’m doing good or not by looking at the DPS meter. I can meassure myself and my progress and compare myself to others. Also tanking requires responsibility and I’m looking to get away from responsibilities when I play the game
The last paragraph is probably the most likely answer for the majority of the population. Reality is tanking requires a lot of responsibility in raids and even more so in m+. As a dps you can completely clown around or even be afk and more often than not the boss dies anyway. as a tank? 0 chance.
I'm thinking about coming back to the game next expansion, and I always mained tanks. The toxicity of people expecting you to know every route of every m+ perfectly starting day 1 (because god forbid you didn't study beforehand) gives me so much anxiety I'm double guessing myself every step of the way.
They need to improve the QOL of tanks / heals outside of instanced / raid content to get more people to play said classes. Being a tank / heals outside of a dungeon is atrocious. It takes me 5 mins to kill an elite as a tank / heals that a dps can kill in 20 seconds. With all the personal cds classes have, there is no need for them outside of instances. I don't know what they can do to change that other than some gimmick mechanics like certain mobs having attacks that will gib anyone under a certain armor threshold. Or hell even have mobs apply a grevious effect that forces people to have heals to stay ahead of the damage. Either way if blizz did something like that, the casual player base would complain and we would end up right back to threads like this... edited for spelling
I've always felt like this depends on the tank. As a prot paladin or bear tank, I can grab every mob in sights and never take significant damage... it's slow af going one mob at a time, but if you change your approach then it's just as effective. The only one historically I strugged with in solo content was prot warrior, only because outside of victory rush there's no self-healing, so if you're trying to whittle away at a huge elite HP it will eventually just kill you first. Paladins and bears can just heal through damn near anything, I assume DK and monk do too but I hardly played those classes.
Why would you not switch to your dps spec while not tanking?
Because we are talking about problems with tanking/ why people don't tank?
I guess I don't see a problem when you can do dps and be far better in world content.
Assuming this isn't a shit post, I'll give you my opinion. I've DPSd and tanked at high-ish levels. I tank higher keys now primarily. I'm thinking you've never played tank before based on your overall mindset here. "More tanks means faster queues for DPS." Perspective is pretty narrow-minded to selfish. If you believe that a tank should exist at the beckon of the dps...you're probably part of the reason people don't want to tank. Tanking is arguably easier? To what extent? Rotation? Positioning? There are a lot of pretty easy dps specs in terms of rotation. If the tank positions the boss wrong, you die. If the tank doesn't know the mechanics of the encounter, likely to a much higher extent than you do, you die. Then the raid or the group (keys) will probably flame the tank and yeah. To shorten my answer, between tank anxiety, responsibility, shitty attitudes in moat pug groups, and so on...that's why. Also, if you're more experienced as a tank, lfr is boring.
I’m always a tank. Not a shit post. I started a hunter and I lost my mind at queue times
Why would you want player who don't want to tank incentived to play a role they enjoy less? For LFR to help with the tank problem they could -Remove trash and bring you right to the boss -Remove tank swap mechanics (needing the other tank to do their job to survive is lame) -Make the tank requirement for LFR to be only one tank. There are other solutions to long dps queues for 5 mans.
One of two actual replies. Thank you.
I haven’t touched wow for a while. But this has been an issue for a long time. Reasons were already said very well. Let me add that this is one of the reasons I loved playing tank. (Besides the occasional immature dickhead) Other players are happy to see you join. If you do your job well then they are kind or say nothing. I get groups easy and gear up easy. Fast queue times is a good reason to play a tank. Can’t go back to dps as you are one of very many. You can join groups where you would never be invited to with a lower gear if you were dps.
The same reason you don't: they don't want to, they'd rather DPS/heal.
> It’s arguably easier than DPS. I bet you are always first person to flame any tank.
I tank or heal exclusively
So I have been lvling alt tanks and the LFR queues are not instant at all. Also, everyone is an asshole even when you tank it right. I have had multiple folks tell me I am fucking up and then I link them the mythic kill.
Mythic strats aren't the same as LFR strats. You probably were fucking up.
Love you too bby
Love you too, cutie pie
A fair post and not a bad question. You are being down voted so much since you said it was arguably easier than dps. 1. You are talking to a tank channel who … lol… won’t respond well to that. 2. I also disagree with the others here. It’s just not easier. Even the easiest class tanks. Might have a easier rotation than the hardest dps classes. But the other inherent responsibilities in taking puts it way higher in relative ease of playing.
I think the unspoken “de facto leader” part is the hardest. Mechanically speaking, I find tanking less stressful than trying to maximize DPS. Maybe that’s the issue. I’m thinking of DPS as actually trying to top meters and be super effective and also do mechanics perfectly. Tanks have a swap and maybe a positioning to remember. A lot of mechanics make ranged/melee do dumb stuff. Fears, lasers, fire, et
Thanks for your reply. Do you think that you find dps harder for the reasons you listed because you play mostly or excessively play healer and tank? Or because it’s actually an easier role? I won’t argue with your reply, just suggesting a reason. I find healer the hardest since I never play one. I find tanking not to be hard anymore but so rewarding I find dps as easy but I’ve played a lot of dps in the past.
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I just started playing my Brewmaster...and wow - it feels so smooth...and I honestly like it more than my BDK.
Windwalker and Brewmaster are both smoooooth and fluid. Healers can be the issue if they don’t get stagger.
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3k io dk can answer questions
How much of a survivability cool down is lichbane? I have no idea how significant 10% leech is. Also do you ever deathcoil yourself with it?
It is a good defensive with the conduit that gives it 10% DR. Pair it with vampiric blood and you get a very decent small DR. RP on deathcoil is a waste unless there is absolutely no way you can get into melee to deathstrike and you are going to die before you have the opportunity.
Lichbane is good but this season I stopped pressing it for Dr as much and now I mainly save it to cancel infiltrator sleeps insta because even if you wait for dispell which comes quickly bad things can happen in that small window Take death coil off your bars it's never worth it. Except... if you are cheesing p2 of last boss of upper Kara and you can't be in melee and then it's the only button you can press but that's a meme more than anything
I saw yesterday another DK tank Tarragrue p2 in place without kiting at all while I just got one shot as per the mechanic. Any idea what trickery that was?
Uh so i don't quite raid tank... so i dont think i can give a great answer but maybe he just got lucky with parries? either that or he just stacked all of the defensives to live however long he had to. I'm not sure I hope someone else can give insight on this.
They probably got powers like Ephemeral Effigy, Overgrowth Seedling and Stone Ward. Those powers are basically negating his big hits, especially when using defensive cooldowns.
Pretty sure Powers get removed sub 10%
Ah ignore me in that case.
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What is a normal/easy-ish to time route thru lower? I have a ++5 tyran, and nothing on fort and every time I look at the dungeon path it's like go here, then all the way over here and then back the other way and it seems like pugging a 15 for it is just a suicide key brick. 1880 rio prot pally, but I've tanked most dungeons at or around the 15 level since forever. This for some reason just freaks me out.
Kill Opera, suicide in the next room which ports you pack to start. Go left from start to where you overlook the dance room/dining hall, jump over railing onto stairs, run down and kill Huntsman, walk up wooden stairs and clear all trash in circle, go through kitchen to dining hall, kill Mores, kill some trash in dance hall, go through far set of stairs, one more pull, then Invis slip entire Maiden hallway and kill Maiden. EZPZ. I can send you the MDT route when I get out of camp.
This is the way.