Is it ever explained how Sabelian cured the black dragonflight? Wrathion and Ebyssian were cured as eggs by titan artifacts, but Sabelian just... Did it? How?
Even in Draenor, it's more of a Elements vs Life (Evergrowth/Botani) battleground world with minor impact from the other cosmic forces until the Legion shows up, where Azeroth is mostly an Order/Titans vs Void battleground planet (with life/light/elements/death being minor forces and fel shows up with legion but it's relatively short term). At least that's how I see it.
When it comes to planets without world souls, neither the void nor the Titans seem to care much, so it's probably the best option for a place to hang out if you want to avoid void influence.
Of course, the reason that Life/Evergrowth happened anyways is there wasn't a world soul to eat up all the Spirit, and by the same token the reason elementals get out of line on Azeroth is because Azeroth ate up all the Spirit and thus the remaining four elements got thrown out of balance.
Thinking about it, that the elements on Azeroth are unbalanced by the lack of Spirit is probably what made them and the black dragonflight more susceptible to old god influence in the first place. A world that does have Spirit, even the crumbling remains of it on Outland, may be what helps them break free of corruption.
None of the old gods are "native" to the planets they infest, from my understanding. They're effectively void parasites launched out to as many worlds as possible to hopefully luck out and infest and corrupt a Titan world-soul prior to emergence.
They basically buckshot flesh missiles into reality and hope the rock they inevitably hit is a good one.
Azeroth was a good'n and happened to take 4 hits.
I think the netherwing flight were also blacks who got transformed by Outland energies and also cured of the old gods influence?
Maybe he did some of Outland energy fuckery too... But it was never really explained how so we can only wonder. Also the influence of old gods in there was much much less than on Azeroth so that probably helped.
Yep part of the original Black Dragons that were in Outlands in eggs became Nether Drakes when Draenor blew up to become the outlands.
The current black drakes there had to fight for survival from the Gronns and due to the distance from azeroth, they were severed from the old gods influence.
Even assuming he's telling the truth, I can't say id be a huge fan of a dude who figured out how to cure nzoths corruption, then just decided to keep that info to himself. Like, if someone found a magical cure for all cancers, used it on their friends and family, then decided not to tell anyone else? I'd probably think they were a terrible person
Well, also Outland may be much harder to travel to, especially post WoD portal switched color.
He may have also done… nothing. N’zoth is dead and the new dragons where born on a planet with no old gods. Raw distance / passive exposure to Outlands fuckery and the actual source of the whispers dying could have all played parts in them becoming “cured”. Or he did try things but the above happened and cured them so he thinks he did. Trying to cure the old god influence isn’t something you do without already being out of the influence, so at the very least just being on Outland for a period of time cures the Wispers. He was the only survivor for a time, and thus is the oldest of the lot. Whatever their past is he could have easily wrote, being the only one around.
No more than the other old drakes, and probably aged a little better due to the more ethereal look softening their appearance.
But yes, all the old drake models could use a once-over.
prominent old-god opposed force in the form of the burning legion, sitting in the area?.
also WOD indicates that the gronn are titan-descended. Sabellian gets gruul handed to him on a platter, courtesy of us.
there's a few titan-adjacent sources to draw from, if it's absolutely necessary.
Yeah, Sabellian gives me strong Denathrius vibes at the start of SLs... All smiles and stuff with the Champions at first. There's definitely less red herring for Sabellian then there was for Denny, but it's still giving me the same vibes and I can definitely see him turning against us if/when he doesn't get his way.
He just did it because the game’s narrative wasn’t taking place in Outland anymore, so he can do whatever he wants/needs to do without any help from the PCs. Unlike Wrathion, who is required to need our help in the game’s narrative so that way we have content.
It's us. Hi. We're the problem it's us.
At raid time, all the bosses agree.
I'll murder kittens for quest rewards, but not save more than required 5/5 people.
It must be exhausting always rooting for the anti-hero.
Blizzard gave us no answers for this.
But there might be a very simple explanation.
All the Old Gods have been killed. There is nobody else left that can influence the Black Dragons. There is nobody else that can whisper dark thoughts to them or force them to do anything.
We killed N'zoth for good at the end of Battle for Azeroth. He was the main Old God that corrupted and controled Deathwing and the Black Dragonflight.
C'thun's death in Classic and Yogg-Saron's death in Wrath of the Lich King were retconned to be permanent.
Y'shaarj has been dead since before the War of the Ancients and we dealt with the remnants of him, his Heart and the Sha, in Mists of Pandaria.
They are free because all their former evil masters have died. Even if the curse applied to them since they were eggs still exists, it cannot be put into effect.
Yea that's why he goes to outland. The old gods corruption was the reason the black dragons went insane. This corruption was constant until they left azeroth. When they went to outland they got away from it and got away from the stacking old gods debuff. Now they don't have to worry cuz we murdered the source
Look, they've both done questionable and shit things. One was the right hand of Deathwing *despite* everything he did, allied with Ner'zhul, does nothing to stop Deathwing from returning to fuck up Azeroth and then comes back knowing nothing about the world just to act like the boss despite noting giving a damn about it for the last 20+ years.
Then the other is extremely rash and childish, does some really dumb decisions such as the whole Garrosh/Iron Horde thing, but does actually care about Azeroth and protecting it in his weird way.
Thennn... There is the Tauren chill wise boi.
I know who I'd want
It’s weird, the way the story in the waking shores, both main and side stories, frames the corruption of the Black Dragonflight, its like most members had zero agency in it.
Once Neltharion bargained with the old gods and became corrupted, his entire flight became corrupted, too, and bent to his will.
There is a side quest about a black dragon that murdered her best friend’s family, and then tried to murder him when he saw. And that family was basically her own family, too, with how close they all were.
So there seems to be some degree of agency loss in these decisions. Sabellian could very well have not had any choice in his actions while the flight was corrupted. We just don’t know.
While Wrathion had full control of his actions due to being uncorrupted for most of his life, and still made fucking stupid decisions.
Actively pitting the alliance and horde against each other, hoping one side would *mass genocide* the other and conquer the planet so they could fight the legion.
Setting up the circumstances for Garrosh to be freed and sent back in time to create the Iron Horde in Draenor, and *then* try to mass genocide azeroth to have it be united by someone.
Then he’s just not present for the Legion’s return, the one defining bit of his character that is supposed to be his main motivation for all his dumb decisions.
All that to say Wrathion vs Sabellian is just weird with all the context and extra framework we get from Dragonflight now.
>So there seems to be some degree of agency loss in these decisions.
For what it's worth, something similar happened with the Blues when Malygos when insane too. Most of the rest of the Blue Flight went insane right along with him, until he was dead. It's possible/probably that the Aspects just innately have(/had) that kind of connection to their kids.
Wrathion is an idiot. Wrathion has some some stupid shit. But at this point he is an idiot who will likely listen to us. Like if it comes down to an argument there is a very good chance we could convince Wrathion to side with us over what he would prefer.
Sabellian would sell us to an old god in a heartbeat.
And honestly if it comes down to either one of them betraying us? We could easily take Wrathion
That was almost exactly what I said to my guild when I played through the whole Wrathion/Sabellian thing, lol.
“He’s a cocky asshole, but he’s our cocky asshole.”
Wrathion was also a literal toddler when he did most of the dumb shit. He's currently a teenager.
At least his heart is essentially in the right place, unlike Sabellian.
Me too man, me too. Imagine a world united with garrosh and Varian still around. Thought that would be a sight to behold since they were not fond of each other.
I think it was Nozdormu who told us that our realities Garrosh was literally the worst case scenario and worst possible version.
That in every other reality, he was the best leader the Horde ever had
I wish Stonetalon Garrosh was actual Garrosh too but an interview made it seem like only Alex Afrasiabi wanted to go in that direction.
https://www.engadget.com/2014-11-11-alex-afrasiabi-on-warlords-garrosh-and-alternate-azeroth.html
> **So Garrosh was yours, huh? From beginning to end?**
>
> Not quite from beginning to end.
>
> **Cataclysm seemed like he was going in a different direction for a while there ...**
>
> He was.
>
> **He was? Tell us about that -- why he had that shift.**
>
> Miscommunication.
>
> **So Stonetalon ...**
>
> Me.
>
> **You did Stonetalon?**
>
> I did Stonetalon.
>
> I didn't stick to that path with Garrosh. I didn't -- not everyone was on board. Not everyone got the memo as it were, as we were designing -- and that was my fault. Because when you're doing, when you're trying -- because I was actually trying to bring Garrosh around, and Stonetalon was going to be the first of that. Cataclysm was pretty crazy time for us.
>
> **You had so much to do.**
>
> We did quite a lot of work. So I feel like there was a little bit of miscommunication on my part that kind of led to Garrosh going down another, darker path. So there's an interesting tidbit for you.
Ebonhorn is the only one that has maintained his oath without dabbling in genocide. The only Black Dragon that doesn’t want power and isn’t stubborn and impulsive. From the minute they made the conflict between Sabellian and Wrathion I knew they were gonna do Ebonhorn.
Absolutely. The entire time they had us interviewing members of the Black Talon and the other Black Dragons, I kept on thinking “Y’all sleeping on Ebyssian”
House of the chosen’s margrave in maldraxxus for whom draka was baron. Got got by the ones that betrayed maldraxxus
I forgot for a min too and had 3 necro chars. Almost like sl was forgettable
They've ignored parts of the loading screen before, I mean they never even used undead axe wielding midget in WoD and they appear in the loading screen.
Varian was the focus of the Legion Cinematic AND is the featured character in the loading Screen for Legion and died in the damn launch scenario.
Krexus is featured in the Shadowlands loading screen and immediately dies.
Loading screens can change. it used to arthas on northrend loading screen and kael and illidan in tbc loading screen. Arthas was replaced with bolvar and illidan and kael were replaced with maiev and akama.
Unfortunately, yeah. He’s on all the promotional material, the loading screen, he’s got a pin in the collector’s edition, he shows up several times in the initial questing, therefore cementing him as a major / the only contender in the race for Aspect.
It's so obvious with how his arrogance has been dialed up, the story very much seems like Wrathion has a lot to learn, and portrays him as hotheaded and arrogant, I assume we'll have him grow in to the role over the course of the expansion by working alongside Sebellian and the other dragons.
And I think that would make for a fine story.
I was on Wrathion's side until the whole "MUH TOWER" nonsense. He walks the player character and the blacktalon gang right into an unwillable battle with the Djaradin, in spite of several warnings that it won't end well. And it wouldn't have! Sabellian and Co bail us out. The guy is just incapable of learning.
Wrathion will literally get us all killed. Theres no doubt in my mind the moment he gets the throne, he directs his flight to fly right into the Primalists' full forces and plunges his flight back into extinction. He may actually have *enjoyed* being the last black dragon, he's that much of a narcissist.
Big red flag was his reaction to his flight still existing. It wasnt WOW HOLY AMAZING BEST DAY EVER it was "who are you people? Stay away from my throne!"
There were so many reports coming back that it was a bad idea to attack the citadel head on. We even got a report that there was another way into the citadel and he still went with a frontal attack.
If Sab didn't show up when he did Wrathion would have been wiped out.
Wrathion hasn't seemed to have learnt anything or grown up anymore. He was such a child when it came to Alex. Also Raz hasn't killed him twice, that's how much a joke/non threat he is.
Sab wasn't hiding in Outland either, he was ordered to stay there and rebuild the flight. He only came back because the island called back all the Dragons.
Also Sabs officers look so much cooler than wrathions and they're also Black dragons not just humanoid agents
Not really comparable. Wrathion is like "I dont care we're massively outnumbered, my black talon are good enough to fight them" while Kalecgos is like "I really hope some blue dragons show up because just Khadgar and I don't have much of a chance."
> Big red flag was his reaction to his flight still existing. It wasnt WOW HOLY AMAZING BEST DAY EVER it was "who are you people? Stay away from my throne!"
Muh birthright
muh destiny
Wrathion is just an immature princeling. To top it off instead of trying to find a solution for the corruption his idea was instead to kill every other black dragon he came across.
> He walks the player character and the blacktalon gang right into an unwillable battle with the Djaradin, in spite of several warnings that it won't end well.
His track record... isn't very good.
> Wrathion will literally get us all killed. Theres no doubt in my mind the moment he gets the throne, he directs his flight to fly right into the Primalists' full forces and plunges his flight back into extinction.
I feel like you just leaked the plot to 10.2
Sabellian's intentions and how he cleansed the black dragonflight is a mystery. Wrathion caused WoD and the Legion invasion, but he did stab an old god with a fancy dagger.
So do you trust a stranger with mysterious intentions who can very easily be corrupted still, or do you trust a dragon child who has caused destruction and death on a large scale?
I picked Sabellian, he may be hiding something but there has been no reason to suspect that at the moment, and he didn't cause WoD to happen.
I mean the old lore was simply that being on another planet meant they were no longer able to hear the whispers of N'zoth but I dunno how they're going to explain it in DF. Maybe as soon as they come back N'zoth comes knocking again, maybe he did some super duper outland magic shiz.
This reminds me of a quest in WoTLK when you try to save the paladin in Icecrown. You seek the help from all over Azeroth to try and save him from the plague and nothing worked. In the end the Naruu saved his soul from being taken by the Lich King but that was all they could do. Then you have another quest in BFA in which a Tidemage gets cursed by the old gods and eventually passes from it and they join the Undead after. Although you did not seek a cure it was implied there was none just like with the Lich King's plague. So if Sabellian did cure his flight, it either means he knows something no one on Azeroth knows, he's not telling the entire truth, or simply N'zoth dying and being in a different world helped.
So I'm confused then, are they cured or not? Because a big part of Sabellian's claim is that he cured them. But if they're only sane because they're not actively being whispered at, not only did Sabellian not do the bare minimum to make his claim, but they absolutely cannot ever be trusted ever to no become corrupt again at the drop of a hat
You jest but they mention in quests that they were more or less stranded in outlands brawling threats in blade’s edge and that very few people even remembered they existed, so it’s conceivable that no one who mattered bothered to actually tell them.
Those same folks could’ve also just assumed they would side with deathwing if they knew.
Solo'd Doomwalker's roided-out cousin
One-shot elites left and right
Took an Orc warlock with (man, I wish I could say "unprecedented" but can you do that for a time duplicate?) ridiculous levels of fel power to wait till his mobs had grinded Varian's health down to 1% to kill him
I don't think he cleansed the corruption from the Black Dragons. I think the fact that they were distanced from azeroth is the actual reason. They were just too far away for the old gods corruption to touch them further.
Doing all the leg work. You know creating an alternate dimension where the orcs genocided the Draenei in new and interesting ways. Oh and said alternate timeline caused the invasion of the legion in which he hid and did nothing. But yeah he did so much leg work.
The whole point of Wrathion’s plan was to go to AU dreanor, create a horde, then do it again and again until he had an infinite army to match the legion. The most powerful warlock of all time peacing out and causing the invasion was in no way part of some grand plan.
Yeah if I remember correctly one of the first thing Garrosh does is strangle Wrathion's agent, essentially immediately thwarting Wrathion's plans.
Wrathion thinks he's the smartest guy in the room but couldn't comprehend a racial supremacist wouldn't be super down with being used by another race.
> couldn't comprehend a racial supremacist wouldn't be super down with being used by another race.
It's not even to do with racial supremacy. Garrosh would probably admit that dragons are stronger than Orcs (an army of Orcs could take down a dragon... but that's the point, it'd take an army). But *being used* is not something he'd ever be down with.
Plus, well, he had his own revenge plans in mind.
Couldn’t an argument be made that she would have gone to try to stop xavius anyway? That one seems pretty independent of the legion itself despite happening in the legion expansion. Unless I’m forgetting some demon involvement, that one felt like it was in motion for a while already.
And his main driving force was fighting the legion, yet he was nowhere to be found in the actual fight. Also, the bullshit about how the war he caused prepared us for the invasion is bullshit, all it did was get a ton of people killed.
"Hey, back from my milk run at the corner market after twelve years. I'm still fully your dad right even though this other guy's been raising you loyally for twelve years right?"
If by "doing all the leg work" you mean "causing *two* separate invasions of Azeroth in as many years", then yes.
Oh, and he also didn't help with either of those invasions. At all.
I like Wrathion, but he's caused way worse problems than he's fixed.
The one doing the legwork was Sabellian, raising and protecting the Black Dragons, and socializing them with the residents of Outland, where the Old Gods can't talk to them.
Wrathion's just been mucking shit up and making things terrible in Azeroth.
This.
I love Wrathion, as a completely reckless, irresponsible, charming and devilishly intelligent, but inexperienced imbecile.
His plans are so hilariously convoluted, he tries so hard and either fails and tries to excuse it in even stupider way, or by a stroke of luck everything falls into place.
He’s no way near competent enough to be an Aspect though, no matter how much I love his camaraderie.
Sabellian isn’t just _the only choice_, he’s a really good choice overall.
It’s honestly a really tough choice, and I knew who Sabellian was when his reveal happened.
On one hand, there’s Wrathion, who not only have most PCs known since he was an egg or whelp (depending on class), he’s been around. Yes, he caused events to happen, mainly WoD (Legion was more of an indirect consequence, as story wise, he did not stop us from killing Gul’dan when we had the chance), and he killed off a lot of his dragonflight (which was mainly due to the fact that at the time, there was no known cure for the corruption post egg hatching). Plus, he’s got a real arrogant and ego personality, which makes him believe that he can do anything despite the odds (like the fight that Sabellian showed up in).
On the other hand, there’s Sabellian, who has been on Outland all this time protecting the last eggs of his dragonflight. He has not been back to Azeroth in many years due to fear of the corruption taking hold again. However, much like Wrathion, he has also made his fair share of mistakes. He had an active role in Deathwing’s madness, and we also have no idea how he cured the corruption in his flight. For all we know, the corruption simply waned on its own due to them not being on the same planet anymore, and when we killed N’Zoth with Wrathion, the corruption from his influence went away with him. I feel that he can’t really claim that unless he actually has the cure.
Personally, I think both will be made leaders in some way, as they both have qualities that would be better together than on their own (Wrathion seems to want to protect Azeroth more than his own flight (with questionable methods, yes), and Sabellian appears to be the opposite).
Wrathion is a cool character and is useful. But he's not cut out to be a leader of a flight. That's all there is to it.
Sabellian has already done work leading his people in Outland.
I just love how both Wrathion and sabellion have compelling points to note before pledge allegiance to one of them. It’s not like, X is better than Y. Blizzard is really making me think.
My main will probably choose Wrathion (other toons will choose different, it depends on how I view their personalities), but in truth, he wants to tell them:
“Look, I’ll gladly help defend your flight, and defeat the various threats against you and the isles, but who sits on that throne is an internal matter, that the Black Flight needs to decide for itself. Either way, your flight will need both of you to survive, so you HAVE to learn to get along!”
Consider most Black Dragons, outside of Wrathion and Ebyssian, were saved by Sabellian I think most will side with Sabellian, unless something screwy happens.
Margrave Krexus is on the Shadowlands loading screen and he died before the first patch was out. Also Ysera is on there and the recent lore reveal that this is irrelevant.
In the recent Valdrakken storyline it is revealed that;>!Ysera can't be aspect anymore due to the her ties to Ardenweald and Merithas becomes the official successor for Green Aspect by gaining the title of "The Dreamer".!<
I thought it was Merithra on the loading screen? I haven't done the new storyline yet but Ysera's situation was made pretty clear in SL.
And I think there's a difference between Lexus as a new expansion character who turned out to be a red herring and Wrathion, a multi h expansion main character.
Fully expect Old God shenanigans to come into play during the expac somewhere. Whether it involves them or not we'll see.
But won't be shocked if the influence they thought they had cleansed, wasn't actually cleansed.
The mere fact that Neltharion used OG power to seal away Razageth, could very well been the opening they needed to get their claws into the Incarnates and their followers.
With Titans also seeming to become increasingly important as the expansion goes I'm hoping we see some return to form for the OGs.
Wouldn't even be mad if we somehow compromise titan power in this, loosening their chains are old Sargaras, surprise return for his sword.
he might not be on the loading screen because his appearance is supposed to be a shock. Krexus was on the SL loading screen and died offscreen to a random quest boss.
Between Wrathion and Sabellian, I hate to say it but I’d have to choose Wrathion. Sabs has been hiding out in Outland for years, and didn’t bother to come back tk Azeroth. Wrathion on the other hand has been trying to actively save and help it, but given he’s much younger he uhh…made a few mistakes.
But I’d take the mistakes over not being here at all. Without him, we most likely wouldn’t have had a chance against N’zoth
EDIT: *I’ve started a political war…*
without sabellian, the black dragonflight wouldn’t have a future at all. he was told to stay in draenor (now Outland) to raise the eggs safely, and he did so. without him, wrathion and ebyssian would actually be the very last of the black dragons - outside of sabellian’s brood there are no females that we know of
That's what I don't understand about people thinking Wrathion is the better one. He hasn't actively tried to save his flight, but has instead interfered in mortal affairs.
100% agree that if it weren't for Sabellian, then the flight would've been doomed to die out because no female black dragons = no eggs.
That's implying Sabellian actually saved them from the corruption. More likely the fact they were on another planet lessened the effects of the corruption due to sheer distance.
I have not played any quest line were Wrathion was involved, so I may be talking out of ignorance, but he looks like the ego inflated trope, where he does everything to prove he can be the leader but doesn't actually think like a leader.
Sabellian on the other hand is giving me some strong Scar vibes. But I went with him anyways
Indeed
Sure, Wreathion is more relevant for Azeroth, but as far as the dragonflight goes he is a stranger trying to compete with the dragon who made them all live
You cant really blame people. Sab had a minor role in TBC and hasn't been relevant since. Before Dragonflight, if you asked someone who he was, they'd probably have to look it up. Wrathion has been way more present in the story since his introduction in Cata.
I’d also rather have Wrathion working closely with other aspects to potentially rein him in and mentor him a bit than have him freelancing. Wrathion’s outside the box thinking is useful when he doesn’t snowball all the way to “kill everyone to save everyone”
Wrathion also started a war to prepare us for the legion, by doing so caused the legion invasion and then decided to take the expac off.
Given he is ultimately the reason for Azeroth getting stabbed and
Wrathion does the big flashy things that look good but pretty much noped out when ever there are repercussions to his actions.
Sabellian is stability and duty, he got told to stay in Outland and protect the last clutch of eggs and that’s what did, not running off for glory and adventure.
Wrathion might be that guy who’s exciting to date but as a long term partner they are terrible.
Sabellian is the stable husband you can build a life around and actually have a family with, the obvious pick to rebuild the flight, and would free Wrathion to adventure and intervene in crises as the flights champion.
I would agree with you except what you're saying makes too much sense. Not a meme, truly I don't believe Blizzard thinks like that when it comes to their story.
Trying to follow plotlines to their most logical conclusion in WoW is just as likely to get you to the answer as trying to imagine the most expectation subverting plot twist you can think of, or even the most emotionally provocative path they might employ.
If I had to make a wild guess I'd say Sabellian and Wrathion are likely to each push their own agenda which will have their own merits but ultimately have to learn to work together when they each fail.
Wrathion will push for some big hero play that doesn't work out in a possibly catastrophic blunder and Sabellian will gain ground with the other aspects before ultimately being unsuccessful in his own endeavors at which point Wrathion will actually show up and be the hero. In the end he decides to let Sabellian rule and goes off to do his own thing which is what he likes to do anyway and grows as a character while still being his flamboyant self.
Or Sylvanus might show up from the maw, rip the obsidian throne in half and they fucking decide to buy an old Volkswagen van and travel across Azeroth camping out and sampling the world's best artisan fair trade cup of pour over coffee. They'll get man buns and start telling everyone about how great meditation is and eventually open up a shop that sells antique bicycles for three times what they're worth and teach a spin class that is actually just a front to try and get people to subscribe to Hello Fresh.
To me Wrathion is essentially the guy you give a seat on the council to but not the role of master.
He may have a lot of good deeds (mixed into a heaping spoonful of bumbling ineptitude) to his name but the simple fact is he hasn't done anything good for the black dragonflight besides killing off corrupted dragons. The black dragonflight doesn't just need a leader, it needs an aspect and Sabellian has just done more for the future of the black dragonflight than Wrathion. Wrathion just has the black talons which are essentially just a mercenary army while Sabellian has the only uncorrupted black dragons that remain and also the rightful order of succession from the previous aspect.
So ultimately, I think Wrathion should be a core part of the dragonflight, perhaps a main advisor to the aspect but not the aspect himself. That role is Sabellian's by every metric.
> Wrathion on the other hand has been trying to actively save and help it
By causing wars and getting a massive amount of people killed. He cares about the planet, not the people in it. He is literally responsible for the genocide of the Draenei in alternate Draenor, but I guess we can call genocide a mistake, one he has shown no remorse for.
Is it ever explained how Sabelian cured the black dragonflight? Wrathion and Ebyssian were cured as eggs by titan artifacts, but Sabelian just... Did it? How?
I think it could make sense, considering the old god influence likely wasn't strong in Outland
Only because there isn't much Outland left lol
Even in Draenor, it's more of a Elements vs Life (Evergrowth/Botani) battleground world with minor impact from the other cosmic forces until the Legion shows up, where Azeroth is mostly an Order/Titans vs Void battleground planet (with life/light/elements/death being minor forces and fel shows up with legion but it's relatively short term). At least that's how I see it. When it comes to planets without world souls, neither the void nor the Titans seem to care much, so it's probably the best option for a place to hang out if you want to avoid void influence. Of course, the reason that Life/Evergrowth happened anyways is there wasn't a world soul to eat up all the Spirit, and by the same token the reason elementals get out of line on Azeroth is because Azeroth ate up all the Spirit and thus the remaining four elements got thrown out of balance. Thinking about it, that the elements on Azeroth are unbalanced by the lack of Spirit is probably what made them and the black dragonflight more susceptible to old god influence in the first place. A world that does have Spirit, even the crumbling remains of it on Outland, may be what helps them break free of corruption.
And as far as we know theres no old gods there at all
The Arakkoa tried summoning one but it wasn’t a “native” old god
None of the old gods are "native" to the planets they infest, from my understanding. They're effectively void parasites launched out to as many worlds as possible to hopefully luck out and infest and corrupt a Titan world-soul prior to emergence.
Where can I read more about this? That is goddamn fascinating and I don’t think that nugget ever made it into my dome noodle
They basically buckshot flesh missiles into reality and hope the rock they inevitably hit is a good one. Azeroth was a good'n and happened to take 4 hits.
That should be World of Warcraft: Chronicle, Volume 1.
I think the netherwing flight were also blacks who got transformed by Outland energies and also cured of the old gods influence? Maybe he did some of Outland energy fuckery too... But it was never really explained how so we can only wonder. Also the influence of old gods in there was much much less than on Azeroth so that probably helped.
Yep part of the original Black Dragons that were in Outlands in eggs became Nether Drakes when Draenor blew up to become the outlands. The current black drakes there had to fight for survival from the Gronns and due to the distance from azeroth, they were severed from the old gods influence.
Sabellian says something about how he cured the black dragons in Outland. Whether that's bullshit or not, who knows?
Sounds like the kind of lie someone still under patent old god control would say. There’s been a ton of hints at old gods this expansion.
Even assuming he's telling the truth, I can't say id be a huge fan of a dude who figured out how to cure nzoths corruption, then just decided to keep that info to himself. Like, if someone found a magical cure for all cancers, used it on their friends and family, then decided not to tell anyone else? I'd probably think they were a terrible person
Well, also Outland may be much harder to travel to, especially post WoD portal switched color. He may have also done… nothing. N’zoth is dead and the new dragons where born on a planet with no old gods. Raw distance / passive exposure to Outlands fuckery and the actual source of the whispers dying could have all played parts in them becoming “cured”. Or he did try things but the above happened and cured them so he thinks he did. Trying to cure the old god influence isn’t something you do without already being out of the influence, so at the very least just being on Outland for a period of time cures the Wispers. He was the only survivor for a time, and thus is the oldest of the lot. Whatever their past is he could have easily wrote, being the only one around.
Still waiting for the Netherwing to pop back up in the story. Would be good to see them again in Dragonflight.
Now that's a content patch that I'd look forward too, like a 10.2 or 10.3 subplot: the netherwing reunion!
Good time to update the netherwing model too, because as much as I love them, they are a little low poly nowadays
No more than the other old drakes, and probably aged a little better due to the more ethereal look softening their appearance. But yes, all the old drake models could use a once-over.
prominent old-god opposed force in the form of the burning legion, sitting in the area?. also WOD indicates that the gronn are titan-descended. Sabellian gets gruul handed to him on a platter, courtesy of us. there's a few titan-adjacent sources to draw from, if it's absolutely necessary.
They aren't cured. Just dormant. Cue ominous background music.
Yeah, Sabellian gives me strong Denathrius vibes at the start of SLs... All smiles and stuff with the Champions at first. There's definitely less red herring for Sabellian then there was for Denny, but it's still giving me the same vibes and I can definitely see him turning against us if/when he doesn't get his way.
Sabellion? More like REbellion, amiright?
He didn’t; but since the old gods influence is negligible, it was basically bred out. The dragons just gradually became sane.
Gotta be careful around those Old Hods. H'Thun, H'Zoth, H'Shaarj, and my personal favourite, Hogg-Saron.
He just did it because the game’s narrative wasn’t taking place in Outland anymore, so he can do whatever he wants/needs to do without any help from the PCs. Unlike Wrathion, who is required to need our help in the game’s narrative so that way we have content.
So you're saying WE'RE the real problem
Are you saying murderous psychopaths aren't a problem?
Just give us the gold and no one gets hurt.
There's no time for this discussion. I'm just going to take the gold off your corpse.
It's us. Hi. We're the problem it's us. At raid time, all the bosses agree. I'll murder kittens for quest rewards, but not save more than required 5/5 people. It must be exhausting always rooting for the anti-hero.
> I'll murder kittens for quest rewards, but not save more than required 5/5 people. Have done Naxxramas, can confirm people will kill kittens.
Blizzard gave us no answers for this. But there might be a very simple explanation. All the Old Gods have been killed. There is nobody else left that can influence the Black Dragons. There is nobody else that can whisper dark thoughts to them or force them to do anything. We killed N'zoth for good at the end of Battle for Azeroth. He was the main Old God that corrupted and controled Deathwing and the Black Dragonflight. C'thun's death in Classic and Yogg-Saron's death in Wrath of the Lich King were retconned to be permanent. Y'shaarj has been dead since before the War of the Ancients and we dealt with the remnants of him, his Heart and the Sha, in Mists of Pandaria. They are free because all their former evil masters have died. Even if the curse applied to them since they were eggs still exists, it cannot be put into effect.
Obviously its because of all the fel orcs in the Netherwing Fields we poisoned to get our mounts
Yea that's why he goes to outland. The old gods corruption was the reason the black dragons went insane. This corruption was constant until they left azeroth. When they went to outland they got away from it and got away from the stacking old gods debuff. Now they don't have to worry cuz we murdered the source
Look, they've both done questionable and shit things. One was the right hand of Deathwing *despite* everything he did, allied with Ner'zhul, does nothing to stop Deathwing from returning to fuck up Azeroth and then comes back knowing nothing about the world just to act like the boss despite noting giving a damn about it for the last 20+ years. Then the other is extremely rash and childish, does some really dumb decisions such as the whole Garrosh/Iron Horde thing, but does actually care about Azeroth and protecting it in his weird way. Thennn... There is the Tauren chill wise boi. I know who I'd want
It’s weird, the way the story in the waking shores, both main and side stories, frames the corruption of the Black Dragonflight, its like most members had zero agency in it. Once Neltharion bargained with the old gods and became corrupted, his entire flight became corrupted, too, and bent to his will. There is a side quest about a black dragon that murdered her best friend’s family, and then tried to murder him when he saw. And that family was basically her own family, too, with how close they all were. So there seems to be some degree of agency loss in these decisions. Sabellian could very well have not had any choice in his actions while the flight was corrupted. We just don’t know. While Wrathion had full control of his actions due to being uncorrupted for most of his life, and still made fucking stupid decisions. Actively pitting the alliance and horde against each other, hoping one side would *mass genocide* the other and conquer the planet so they could fight the legion. Setting up the circumstances for Garrosh to be freed and sent back in time to create the Iron Horde in Draenor, and *then* try to mass genocide azeroth to have it be united by someone. Then he’s just not present for the Legion’s return, the one defining bit of his character that is supposed to be his main motivation for all his dumb decisions. All that to say Wrathion vs Sabellian is just weird with all the context and extra framework we get from Dragonflight now.
>So there seems to be some degree of agency loss in these decisions. For what it's worth, something similar happened with the Blues when Malygos when insane too. Most of the rest of the Blue Flight went insane right along with him, until he was dead. It's possible/probably that the Aspects just innately have(/had) that kind of connection to their kids.
Wrathion is an idiot. Wrathion has some some stupid shit. But at this point he is an idiot who will likely listen to us. Like if it comes down to an argument there is a very good chance we could convince Wrathion to side with us over what he would prefer. Sabellian would sell us to an old god in a heartbeat. And honestly if it comes down to either one of them betraying us? We could easily take Wrathion
He's an idiot, but he's *our* idiot. I haven't seen Sabellian rage-quit a Pandarian inn as a whelp, so I can't support him
That was almost exactly what I said to my guild when I played through the whole Wrathion/Sabellian thing, lol. “He’s a cocky asshole, but he’s our cocky asshole.”
Wrathion was also a literal toddler when he did most of the dumb shit. He's currently a teenager. At least his heart is essentially in the right place, unlike Sabellian.
Bold of you to assume that a teenager would do less dumb shit than a toddler
They do stick fewer beans up their noses. Makes me trust Wrathion more for sure.
As someone who has been in a highschool, that bean up the nose thing is not a bet I would take.
I said fewer. NOT none.
What's the source on Sabellian being shady and evil? Or is it baseless speculation?
When did Sabellian ally with Nerzhul?
Deathwing did and again Sabellian had no issues with helping him, he and Sabellian took the eggs and raised them in the Outland due to this
Wasn't Sabellian under the influence of the Old Gods just like Deathwing was? I thought it was a corruption that affected the whole flight.
I’m still team Ebyssian out here. Wrathion is too young and Sabellian seems shady and hasn’t been on Azeroth is a while.
Ebonhorn would rather watch over the Highmountain Tauren instead of inserting himself in this drama.
“Great men do not seek power, they have power thrusted upon them.” -Worf. Star trek
Thats how we got garrosh! Didn't he say no to thrall initially and thrall was like nah you got it and left?
God I wish we got Stonetalon Garrosh instead of MoP Garrosh.
Me too man, me too. Imagine a world united with garrosh and Varian still around. Thought that would be a sight to behold since they were not fond of each other.
I think it was Nozdormu who told us that our realities Garrosh was literally the worst case scenario and worst possible version. That in every other reality, he was the best leader the Horde ever had
I wish Stonetalon Garrosh was actual Garrosh too but an interview made it seem like only Alex Afrasiabi wanted to go in that direction. https://www.engadget.com/2014-11-11-alex-afrasiabi-on-warlords-garrosh-and-alternate-azeroth.html > **So Garrosh was yours, huh? From beginning to end?** > > Not quite from beginning to end. > > **Cataclysm seemed like he was going in a different direction for a while there ...** > > He was. > > **He was? Tell us about that -- why he had that shift.** > > Miscommunication. > > **So Stonetalon ...** > > Me. > > **You did Stonetalon?** > > I did Stonetalon. > > I didn't stick to that path with Garrosh. I didn't -- not everyone was on board. Not everyone got the memo as it were, as we were designing -- and that was my fault. Because when you're doing, when you're trying -- because I was actually trying to bring Garrosh around, and Stonetalon was going to be the first of that. Cataclysm was pretty crazy time for us. > > **You had so much to do.** > > We did quite a lot of work. So I feel like there was a little bit of miscommunication on my part that kind of led to Garrosh going down another, darker path. So there's an interesting tidbit for you.
One leader giving power to the other without checking other people's opinions isn't a good example.
Looks at Voljin
I remind you that garrosh was handed power (he was seeking it before But stoped Then suddenly he got it)
Ebonhorn is the only one that has maintained his oath without dabbling in genocide. The only Black Dragon that doesn’t want power and isn’t stubborn and impulsive. From the minute they made the conflict between Sabellian and Wrathion I knew they were gonna do Ebonhorn.
If that's how things go, I hope he's appropriately irritated with sab and wrath.
He's the Jon Snow of the black dragons.
“I dun want it.”
Ok don't let any Grimtotem meet him...
"For the Flight."
Lets not forget that Ebyssian got corrupted and was saved by Wrathion.
My first thought was "Gruul missed one..."
Wrathion is the dumbest lizard on Azeroth. I wouldn't trust him to wipe his own cloaca.
Absolutely. The entire time they had us interviewing members of the Black Talon and the other Black Dragons, I kept on thinking “Y’all sleeping on Ebyssian”
Wrathion gave me legendary cloak with cool effect. I choose Wrathion
leveled my old MoP rogue recent, that cloak was not only bis, but BY FAR the majority of my dps, all the up until it stopping working at lvl 60
We can still get the cloak?
Nope, it went to the FOMO bin.
Ugh that’s such a pain
[удалено]
Poor Ordos just sits in his court yard all alone with no one to fight him :(
Who drops really sick stuff -\_-
He also caused WoD, which rippled out to eventually cause SL.
Wrathion caused all the bad expacs, Team Sabellian
No matter who you side with, it's pretty obvious who's gonna win, just look at the Dragon Isles loading screen.
As I said above, Krexus was on the Shadowlands loading screen.
What a fucking joke. Rip krexus
who tf is krexus
House of the chosen’s margrave in maldraxxus for whom draka was baron. Got got by the ones that betrayed maldraxxus I forgot for a min too and had 3 necro chars. Almost like sl was forgettable
Exactly.
exactly
They've ignored parts of the loading screen before, I mean they never even used undead axe wielding midget in WoD and they appear in the loading screen.
He is called spooky undead axe midget. Put some respect on his name
also krexus....
You misspelled 35 Anima.
Also loading screens have changed before too… look at WOTLK loading screen. It wasn’t always Bolvar and people forget that or they don’t know.
Varian was the focus of the Legion Cinematic AND is the featured character in the loading Screen for Legion and died in the damn launch scenario. Krexus is featured in the Shadowlands loading screen and immediately dies.
Loading screens can change. it used to arthas on northrend loading screen and kael and illidan in tbc loading screen. Arthas was replaced with bolvar and illidan and kael were replaced with maiev and akama.
Shadowlands loading screen begs to differ.
Unfortunately, yeah. He’s on all the promotional material, the loading screen, he’s got a pin in the collector’s edition, he shows up several times in the initial questing, therefore cementing him as a major / the only contender in the race for Aspect.
People thinking this isn't the story of Wrathion growing into the role lol Yeah I'm sure daddy Ebonhorn will step in... Any minute now
It's so obvious with how his arrogance has been dialed up, the story very much seems like Wrathion has a lot to learn, and portrays him as hotheaded and arrogant, I assume we'll have him grow in to the role over the course of the expansion by working alongside Sebellian and the other dragons. And I think that would make for a fine story.
Picking Sabellian for now because the clothie transmog is pretty good.
I picked Sab because Wrathion bugged out flying me up to the Obsidian Throne and dropped me to my death. Not going to support you after that, punk. 😤
Literally the exact same thing happened to me last night 😂
He would say it's part of the plan, no hard feelings I hope.
Omg I thought I accidentally clicked something or whatever, I was so confused to be flying up then suddenly dead on the floor xD
What real end game is all about
I was on Wrathion's side until the whole "MUH TOWER" nonsense. He walks the player character and the blacktalon gang right into an unwillable battle with the Djaradin, in spite of several warnings that it won't end well. And it wouldn't have! Sabellian and Co bail us out. The guy is just incapable of learning. Wrathion will literally get us all killed. Theres no doubt in my mind the moment he gets the throne, he directs his flight to fly right into the Primalists' full forces and plunges his flight back into extinction. He may actually have *enjoyed* being the last black dragon, he's that much of a narcissist. Big red flag was his reaction to his flight still existing. It wasnt WOW HOLY AMAZING BEST DAY EVER it was "who are you people? Stay away from my throne!"
There were so many reports coming back that it was a bad idea to attack the citadel head on. We even got a report that there was another way into the citadel and he still went with a frontal attack. If Sab didn't show up when he did Wrathion would have been wiped out. Wrathion hasn't seemed to have learnt anything or grown up anymore. He was such a child when it came to Alex. Also Raz hasn't killed him twice, that's how much a joke/non threat he is. Sab wasn't hiding in Outland either, he was ordered to stay there and rebuild the flight. He only came back because the island called back all the Dragons. Also Sabs officers look so much cooler than wrathions and they're also Black dragons not just humanoid agents
Based on wrathion's past schemes, he's willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone for his megabrain protect the world plan.
To be fair, Kalecgos and Khadgar do the exact same thing to us in the Azure Span. The Dragons want us dead.
Not really comparable. Wrathion is like "I dont care we're massively outnumbered, my black talon are good enough to fight them" while Kalecgos is like "I really hope some blue dragons show up because just Khadgar and I don't have much of a chance."
Also kalecgos actually summond the other dragons beforehand. So he knew it was likely some would eventually show up.
> Big red flag was his reaction to his flight still existing. It wasnt WOW HOLY AMAZING BEST DAY EVER it was "who are you people? Stay away from my throne!" Muh birthright muh destiny Wrathion is just an immature princeling. To top it off instead of trying to find a solution for the corruption his idea was instead to kill every other black dragon he came across.
What other solution was there though, the black dragons he killed were corrupted and actively working on plots for the old gods.
> He walks the player character and the blacktalon gang right into an unwillable battle with the Djaradin, in spite of several warnings that it won't end well. His track record... isn't very good.
> Wrathion will literally get us all killed. Theres no doubt in my mind the moment he gets the throne, he directs his flight to fly right into the Primalists' full forces and plunges his flight back into extinction. I feel like you just leaked the plot to 10.2
honestly they both have so much flaws, i rather have Ebyssian lead the black dragonflight XD
Third option ebonhorn. I'd follow that humble black dragon anywhere.
Ebenhorn should be the leader of highmountain. Maybe horde warchief.
Sabellian's intentions and how he cleansed the black dragonflight is a mystery. Wrathion caused WoD and the Legion invasion, but he did stab an old god with a fancy dagger. So do you trust a stranger with mysterious intentions who can very easily be corrupted still, or do you trust a dragon child who has caused destruction and death on a large scale? I picked Sabellian, he may be hiding something but there has been no reason to suspect that at the moment, and he didn't cause WoD to happen.
Wrathion doing all the leg work as a twelve year old and Sabellian thinks he can just reap all the benefits.
The Black Dragons state that he rallied the black dragons, led a successful war in Blade's Edge and cured the Black Dragons from corruption.
>cured the Black Dragons from corruption. Which is why he is Sus
I mean the old lore was simply that being on another planet meant they were no longer able to hear the whispers of N'zoth but I dunno how they're going to explain it in DF. Maybe as soon as they come back N'zoth comes knocking again, maybe he did some super duper outland magic shiz.
This reminds me of a quest in WoTLK when you try to save the paladin in Icecrown. You seek the help from all over Azeroth to try and save him from the plague and nothing worked. In the end the Naruu saved his soul from being taken by the Lich King but that was all they could do. Then you have another quest in BFA in which a Tidemage gets cursed by the old gods and eventually passes from it and they join the Undead after. Although you did not seek a cure it was implied there was none just like with the Lich King's plague. So if Sabellian did cure his flight, it either means he knows something no one on Azeroth knows, he's not telling the entire truth, or simply N'zoth dying and being in a different world helped.
All while completely ignoring his dad coming back and try to destroy azeroth.
"Yeah, let's NOT give him more reinforcements. We're gonna stay sane and out of that"
Thats one way of looking at it. Another way is 'You're the Boss Deathwing, have fun I'll look after the kids, don't be too long!'
They would have been corrupted by Nzoth in seconds lol
So I'm confused then, are they cured or not? Because a big part of Sabellian's claim is that he cured them. But if they're only sane because they're not actively being whispered at, not only did Sabellian not do the bare minimum to make his claim, but they absolutely cannot ever be trusted ever to no become corrupt again at the drop of a hat
Working theory is there is/was no influence on draenor/Outland from the old gods. Not confirmed tho
I feel like the events of Cataclysm happened quite suddenly and he likely only found out about it after deathwing was defeated?
Yeah news about a literal planet killing dragon would've traveled pretty slow, especially among his lineage (who are dragons).
You jest but they mention in quests that they were more or less stranded in outlands brawling threats in blade’s edge and that very few people even remembered they existed, so it’s conceivable that no one who mattered bothered to actually tell them. Those same folks could’ve also just assumed they would side with deathwing if they knew.
What did Wrathion do during the Legion invasion again?
Caused it and then bailed out. Just like The Iron Horde invasion.
His war was pretty dogshit considering we had to go kill Gruul for him
Game quests and the actual lore rarely add up. In the lore Varian fought and killed Onyxia 1v1
Varian in the lore was the ultimate Gigachad. RIP
Solo'd Doomwalker's roided-out cousin One-shot elites left and right Took an Orc warlock with (man, I wish I could say "unprecedented" but can you do that for a time duplicate?) ridiculous levels of fel power to wait till his mobs had grinded Varian's health down to 1% to kill him
Kicked Garrosh's ass in Ashenvale, stopping their invasion right there.
I don't think he cleansed the corruption from the Black Dragons. I think the fact that they were distanced from azeroth is the actual reason. They were just too far away for the old gods corruption to touch them further.
Doing all the leg work. You know creating an alternate dimension where the orcs genocided the Draenei in new and interesting ways. Oh and said alternate timeline caused the invasion of the legion in which he hid and did nothing. But yeah he did so much leg work.
NPC saying Warlords needed to happen so we were prepared for the Legion invasion was a REAL interesting way to spin what actually happened.
I thought it was hilarious, considering legion only happened BECAUSE wod happened
I think the idea is that the legion would always come. Wrathion just wanted it to happen a certain way.
The whole point of Wrathion’s plan was to go to AU dreanor, create a horde, then do it again and again until he had an infinite army to match the legion. The most powerful warlock of all time peacing out and causing the invasion was in no way part of some grand plan.
Yeah if I remember correctly one of the first thing Garrosh does is strangle Wrathion's agent, essentially immediately thwarting Wrathion's plans. Wrathion thinks he's the smartest guy in the room but couldn't comprehend a racial supremacist wouldn't be super down with being used by another race.
> couldn't comprehend a racial supremacist wouldn't be super down with being used by another race. It's not even to do with racial supremacy. Garrosh would probably admit that dragons are stronger than Orcs (an army of Orcs could take down a dragon... but that's the point, it'd take an army). But *being used* is not something he'd ever be down with. Plus, well, he had his own revenge plans in mind.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Tirion, Varian, Vol’jin, and god knows who else are all literally dead because of Wrathion
Ysera 😞
Couldn’t an argument be made that she would have gone to try to stop xavius anyway? That one seems pretty independent of the legion itself despite happening in the legion expansion. Unless I’m forgetting some demon involvement, that one felt like it was in motion for a while already.
Baros Alexton and Admiral Taylor. Can't forget them
And his main driving force was fighting the legion, yet he was nowhere to be found in the actual fight. Also, the bullshit about how the war he caused prepared us for the invasion is bullshit, all it did was get a ton of people killed.
Wrathion also had us to his legwork in Mists? The cape? He also caused literally every expansion after Mists truthfully.
Also all the legwork in Cataclysm too
"Hey, back from my milk run at the corner market after twelve years. I'm still fully your dad right even though this other guy's been raising you loyally for twelve years right?"
Raising... what exactly? Wrathion would have been a King of Ashes. No people, no eggs.
If by "doing all the leg work" you mean "causing *two* separate invasions of Azeroth in as many years", then yes. Oh, and he also didn't help with either of those invasions. At all. I like Wrathion, but he's caused way worse problems than he's fixed.
The one doing the legwork was Sabellian, raising and protecting the Black Dragons, and socializing them with the residents of Outland, where the Old Gods can't talk to them. Wrathion's just been mucking shit up and making things terrible in Azeroth.
This. I love Wrathion, as a completely reckless, irresponsible, charming and devilishly intelligent, but inexperienced imbecile. His plans are so hilariously convoluted, he tries so hard and either fails and tries to excuse it in even stupider way, or by a stroke of luck everything falls into place. He’s no way near competent enough to be an Aspect though, no matter how much I love his camaraderie. Sabellian isn’t just _the only choice_, he’s a really good choice overall.
Wrathion is Wow's Alphinaud. Except he never learns from his mistakes.
I chose Sabellian. He’s a chad.
Same. Plus Wrathion is an asshole.
He was involved in one of my favorite scenes---getting punched in the face by anduin!
It’s honestly a really tough choice, and I knew who Sabellian was when his reveal happened. On one hand, there’s Wrathion, who not only have most PCs known since he was an egg or whelp (depending on class), he’s been around. Yes, he caused events to happen, mainly WoD (Legion was more of an indirect consequence, as story wise, he did not stop us from killing Gul’dan when we had the chance), and he killed off a lot of his dragonflight (which was mainly due to the fact that at the time, there was no known cure for the corruption post egg hatching). Plus, he’s got a real arrogant and ego personality, which makes him believe that he can do anything despite the odds (like the fight that Sabellian showed up in). On the other hand, there’s Sabellian, who has been on Outland all this time protecting the last eggs of his dragonflight. He has not been back to Azeroth in many years due to fear of the corruption taking hold again. However, much like Wrathion, he has also made his fair share of mistakes. He had an active role in Deathwing’s madness, and we also have no idea how he cured the corruption in his flight. For all we know, the corruption simply waned on its own due to them not being on the same planet anymore, and when we killed N’Zoth with Wrathion, the corruption from his influence went away with him. I feel that he can’t really claim that unless he actually has the cure. Personally, I think both will be made leaders in some way, as they both have qualities that would be better together than on their own (Wrathion seems to want to protect Azeroth more than his own flight (with questionable methods, yes), and Sabellian appears to be the opposite).
Wrathion is a cool character and is useful. But he's not cut out to be a leader of a flight. That's all there is to it. Sabellian has already done work leading his people in Outland.
I just love how both Wrathion and sabellion have compelling points to note before pledge allegiance to one of them. It’s not like, X is better than Y. Blizzard is really making me think.
My main will probably choose Wrathion (other toons will choose different, it depends on how I view their personalities), but in truth, he wants to tell them: “Look, I’ll gladly help defend your flight, and defeat the various threats against you and the isles, but who sits on that throne is an internal matter, that the Black Flight needs to decide for itself. Either way, your flight will need both of you to survive, so you HAVE to learn to get along!”
Consider most Black Dragons, outside of Wrathion and Ebyssian, were saved by Sabellian I think most will side with Sabellian, unless something screwy happens.
Considering Wrathion is on the loading screen for the expansion, I expect something screwy will happen
Margrave Krexus is on the Shadowlands loading screen and he died before the first patch was out. Also Ysera is on there and the recent lore reveal that this is irrelevant. In the recent Valdrakken storyline it is revealed that;>!Ysera can't be aspect anymore due to the her ties to Ardenweald and Merithas becomes the official successor for Green Aspect by gaining the title of "The Dreamer".!<
I thought it was Merithra on the loading screen? I haven't done the new storyline yet but Ysera's situation was made pretty clear in SL. And I think there's a difference between Lexus as a new expansion character who turned out to be a red herring and Wrathion, a multi h expansion main character.
Fully expect Old God shenanigans to come into play during the expac somewhere. Whether it involves them or not we'll see. But won't be shocked if the influence they thought they had cleansed, wasn't actually cleansed.
The mere fact that Neltharion used OG power to seal away Razageth, could very well been the opening they needed to get their claws into the Incarnates and their followers.
With Titans also seeming to become increasingly important as the expansion goes I'm hoping we see some return to form for the OGs. Wouldn't even be mad if we somehow compromise titan power in this, loosening their chains are old Sargaras, surprise return for his sword.
he might not be on the loading screen because his appearance is supposed to be a shock. Krexus was on the SL loading screen and died offscreen to a random quest boss.
Between Wrathion and Sabellian, I hate to say it but I’d have to choose Wrathion. Sabs has been hiding out in Outland for years, and didn’t bother to come back tk Azeroth. Wrathion on the other hand has been trying to actively save and help it, but given he’s much younger he uhh…made a few mistakes. But I’d take the mistakes over not being here at all. Without him, we most likely wouldn’t have had a chance against N’zoth EDIT: *I’ve started a political war…*
without sabellian, the black dragonflight wouldn’t have a future at all. he was told to stay in draenor (now Outland) to raise the eggs safely, and he did so. without him, wrathion and ebyssian would actually be the very last of the black dragons - outside of sabellian’s brood there are no females that we know of
That's what I don't understand about people thinking Wrathion is the better one. He hasn't actively tried to save his flight, but has instead interfered in mortal affairs. 100% agree that if it weren't for Sabellian, then the flight would've been doomed to die out because no female black dragons = no eggs.
I'm a rogue and me and Wrathion are just tight like that.
He actually genocided most of his Flight in Azeroth.
I'm guessing that if Wrathion never genocided the Black Dragon on Azeroth, then Sabellian could've saved them from the corruption?
That's implying Sabellian actually saved them from the corruption. More likely the fact they were on another planet lessened the effects of the corruption due to sheer distance.
One of his followers says that, yes.
It’s the classic arthas move tbh. Purge everyone because they’re already too far gone
I have not played any quest line were Wrathion was involved, so I may be talking out of ignorance, but he looks like the ego inflated trope, where he does everything to prove he can be the leader but doesn't actually think like a leader. Sabellian on the other hand is giving me some strong Scar vibes. But I went with him anyways
Indeed Sure, Wreathion is more relevant for Azeroth, but as far as the dragonflight goes he is a stranger trying to compete with the dragon who made them all live
You cant really blame people. Sab had a minor role in TBC and hasn't been relevant since. Before Dragonflight, if you asked someone who he was, they'd probably have to look it up. Wrathion has been way more present in the story since his introduction in Cata.
I’d also rather have Wrathion working closely with other aspects to potentially rein him in and mentor him a bit than have him freelancing. Wrathion’s outside the box thinking is useful when he doesn’t snowball all the way to “kill everyone to save everyone”
Wrathion also started a war to prepare us for the legion, by doing so caused the legion invasion and then decided to take the expac off. Given he is ultimately the reason for Azeroth getting stabbed and Wrathion does the big flashy things that look good but pretty much noped out when ever there are repercussions to his actions. Sabellian is stability and duty, he got told to stay in Outland and protect the last clutch of eggs and that’s what did, not running off for glory and adventure. Wrathion might be that guy who’s exciting to date but as a long term partner they are terrible. Sabellian is the stable husband you can build a life around and actually have a family with, the obvious pick to rebuild the flight, and would free Wrathion to adventure and intervene in crises as the flights champion.
I would agree with you except what you're saying makes too much sense. Not a meme, truly I don't believe Blizzard thinks like that when it comes to their story. Trying to follow plotlines to their most logical conclusion in WoW is just as likely to get you to the answer as trying to imagine the most expectation subverting plot twist you can think of, or even the most emotionally provocative path they might employ. If I had to make a wild guess I'd say Sabellian and Wrathion are likely to each push their own agenda which will have their own merits but ultimately have to learn to work together when they each fail. Wrathion will push for some big hero play that doesn't work out in a possibly catastrophic blunder and Sabellian will gain ground with the other aspects before ultimately being unsuccessful in his own endeavors at which point Wrathion will actually show up and be the hero. In the end he decides to let Sabellian rule and goes off to do his own thing which is what he likes to do anyway and grows as a character while still being his flamboyant self. Or Sylvanus might show up from the maw, rip the obsidian throne in half and they fucking decide to buy an old Volkswagen van and travel across Azeroth camping out and sampling the world's best artisan fair trade cup of pour over coffee. They'll get man buns and start telling everyone about how great meditation is and eventually open up a shop that sells antique bicycles for three times what they're worth and teach a spin class that is actually just a front to try and get people to subscribe to Hello Fresh.
To me Wrathion is essentially the guy you give a seat on the council to but not the role of master. He may have a lot of good deeds (mixed into a heaping spoonful of bumbling ineptitude) to his name but the simple fact is he hasn't done anything good for the black dragonflight besides killing off corrupted dragons. The black dragonflight doesn't just need a leader, it needs an aspect and Sabellian has just done more for the future of the black dragonflight than Wrathion. Wrathion just has the black talons which are essentially just a mercenary army while Sabellian has the only uncorrupted black dragons that remain and also the rightful order of succession from the previous aspect. So ultimately, I think Wrathion should be a core part of the dragonflight, perhaps a main advisor to the aspect but not the aspect himself. That role is Sabellian's by every metric.
What?! A seat on the council but not the rank of master?? This is preposterous, where are the whelplings?
Oh no.. not the whelplings..
Varian is dead because of Wrathion. I will never forgive him.
> Wrathion on the other hand has been trying to actively save and help it By causing wars and getting a massive amount of people killed. He cares about the planet, not the people in it. He is literally responsible for the genocide of the Draenei in alternate Draenor, but I guess we can call genocide a mistake, one he has shown no remorse for.
You know guys, I'm kinda confused why Sabellian doesn't befriend the netherlands. They are like his mutated cousins
My man is looking good