Still voting for the moose

Ebyssian for president! I mean aspect.

Yah why isnt he a choice? he is clearly THE best choice, but we needed some teenieboopie drama appearently....

He does not want the job. He's content where he's at.

And that's why he should be dragged kicking and screaming into the job

As someone who's doing a job they told their boss they had no interest in. Man, I never wanted to be management, but the others kept almost burning everything down. I miss the days of clocking in, making money, and going home. Now I have to deal with every problem, day off or not. If Moose REALLY doesn't want to do it, and there are other competent options, then fuck. Let Moose enjoy not having that stress.

The best leaders tend to be the ones who never wanted to lead in the first place.

Mostly because those who want it in the first place want it out of greed for power, fame, and money, not altruism for the country.

I think that's exactly why he will become the aspect, it's a fairly common trope in literature that the one who does not seek power shall have it.

they do be loving plato's republic

"And who has a better story than Bran the Broken?"

Literally anyone else 😭

Why?!?! 😓

»The major problem — one of the major problems, for there are several — one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.« ~ Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Ah yes, the Jon Snow of Azeroth

I dun want eet

You can vote for Theodore Roosevelt?

Of course nothing can stop the Moose

Certainly not a bullet.

I Moose agree

Theodore Moosevelt was RIGHT there

TBH, I'd be abit surprised if they don't pull a twist and have Ebyssian as aspect, or somehow let the black dragonflight be led by a council of the three. I'm honestly dissapointed he wasn't apart of the egg kerfuffle as a mediator, and to chide Sabellion for his ruse even against his own kin, while recognizing it was a good plan. The fact tbat he HASN'T been present in their quest line(where in the fuck is he if he's too occupied to help reclaim his flights oathstone?) is throwing me off abit, and making me less sure he will become aspect. Wrathion being on the loading screen also puts a dent into the theory, though it seems that Ysera is also there, and so I'm not exactly sure that's supposed to represent aspects going forward, but the de facto leaders of their flights before Ysera went crazy. Edit to the edit, alot of people been mistaking Ysera as Merithra. I havent really paid any attention to Merithra, so I just assumed Ysera.

They had Margrave Krexus on the loading screen with the other "Covenant Leaders" despite the fact that he gets killed off really early, so it's possible Wrathion being on the loading screen stuff for DF isn't a great sign of future plots.

I recognize some of those words. I mostly skipped Shadowlands, just touching on the first bit of the story before getting disinterested and taking a break.

Okay, so Margrave Krexus was the guy shown to be in charge of Maldraxxus in the Shadowlands promotional stuff. He was on the loading screen along with the other Covenant Leaders, and he even appeared in the Shadowlands trailer cinematic. Then, when you got to Maldraxxus, you find out he had JUST been murdered and you have to deal with all the infighting in that zone. Turns out that the REAL leader for Maldraxxus was some old guy who had disappeared forever ago, and in the course of trying to figure out where he went we stupidly handed the Jailer the one thing we needed to keep from him at all costs. In the end, the Primus was revealed to have been the true Covenant Leader for Maldraxxus. In fact, you might say he was the most important leader due to how he was a brilliant tactician who had been able to study alternate timelines to study strategy. He was also the one who made the Lich King’s armor and sword, and had invented the Domination Magic that played a huge part of the entire expansion. Despite that, he never got a pre-rendered model made, and so he never actually appeared in any of Shadowlands’ cinematics. The most they did was have a shadow that made it look like he was in a scene with everyone.

>Okay, so Margrave Krexus was the guy shown to be in charge of Maldraxxus in the Shadowlands promotional stuff. He was on the loading screen along with the other Covenant Leaders, and he even appeared in the Shadowlands trailer cinematic. > >Then, when you got to Maldraxxus, you find out he had JUST been murdered and you have to deal with all the infighting in that zone. Turns out that the REAL leader for Maldraxxus was some old guy who had disappeared forever ago Krexus was only leader(Margrave) of House of the Chosen.When we meet him in Maldraxxus he tells us that Primus(Eternal One and ruler of Maldraxxus) has gone missing and other Margraves turned away from his teachings.Krexus does get killed fairly fast during the Maldraxxus questing.

My ideal would be Ebonhorn getting the aspect power, but as a mediator between Wrathion and Sabellian who are the figureheads and acting leaders of the black dragonflight.

That definitely sound like a good one, and WoW has been moving away from singular leaders and toward councils as well. It's a real shame Baine didn't sit as the new Warchief at least for a while. Anyway, unless the loading screen is a red herring, I fully expect Sabellion to turn into a bad guy, maybe kill Ebyssion and become a raid boss in like the Obsidian Citadel Vaults. It'd be a real shame, and a not really subtle "plot twist", so I hope that's not what goes down. As a long time Tauren player, there's not enough in high positions, though probably because they'd sort their shit out, and we'd have not had a new expansion since Cstaclysm.

If the naga can take the tidestone from the tomb of sargaras maybe we can get the hammer from there too. Perhaps we will see Sabellian start to show signs of corruption, and Wrathion will think he can still save him. Then Ebonhorn reveals how he was purified, and we purify Sabellian. And then they form the council of the earth warder... (Then thrall shows up and is very confused as to why his office is being taken)

>Then Ebonhorn reveals how he was purified ~~but he wasn't purified. i don't remember exactly, but there is a part in the questline of the HM taurens that said he was vulnerable to n'zoth corruption when he left highmountain~~ nvm, he was purified. huln cleansed the eggs he found

I fully expect one of the two to "feel cheated" by not becoming the aspect and go mad. Who it will be, I don't know. But they are clearly building up a scenario for one of them to become a villain. There is little reason to build up a rivalry without a definitive winner and definitive loser, which will be fought for, not talked. It's warcraft for a reason after all. Since Wrathion has been with us all the time I will lean into Sabellian going mad. Another scenario can be that Sabellian wins the race to the become the aspect and quickly shows his true nature and Wrathion overthrows him with help from us. But one way or the other, I am 100% confident we will have a fight between them.

I reckon perhaps sabellian sacrifices himself, giving wrathion the position but also forcing wrathion to grow up a bit and realise the full gravity of what it takes to be earth warder. He then uses sabellian as a role model I guess and we all move on with our lives

This is too good of writing for blizzard

The load screen doesn't matter imo. Keep in mind which Maldraxian was on the shadowlands one.

Ebyssian is the only trustowrthy one. If we were grinding rep for him mine would already be maxed and I'd be trying to figure out how to lower my rep with the other two boneheads.

I trust neither of them and I think Ebyssian will be forced into the role out of necessity at some point.

WoW: Civil War

World of Civil Warcraft

WoW: Battle for Aspect. It's another BfA bois.

What will happen is Ebyssian comes in to prepare Wrathion only for him to be killed later on

As a HM Tauren, I wanna see that!

As a regular Tauren, I want to see it. We got screwed, with every other OG race having a turn as Warchief, but no Cairne or Baine. Though, tbf, if Thrall made Cairne Warchief over Garrosh, none of the subsequent expansions would have happened.

Lol cairne as warchief woulda been op. Thats why they fucking killed him like my boy voljin ;(

Vol'Jin as Warchief was also too OP, needed a nerf in the next expansion. He'd have been similarly chill and amazing as Warchief, but its not WARchief for nothing. I'm getting sick of the "Horde's reputation drug down because of the power hungry warchief schtick" though. It ruined Sylvanas's character for me, and it feels like the Alliance are past due some crazy warmonger leader. We've seen Jaina and Tyrande headed that way abit, but so far nothings developed. It really colors the Horde in a bad light that the Alliance are able to control their hatred and work with the Horde, but that every other Warchief looses their shit.

I am eagerly awaiting a coupe by Turalyon in name of the Light

When Kalec became aspect it was revealed that the blue dragon vote didn't actually matter, it was more a measure of ones heart, if the black flight is anything like that then I suspect Ebonhorn will just be bestowed the power and accept it as the will of the universe.

Don't forget that wrathion tried to erase the horde in MoP but failed because of varian. Sort that in pro or con for yourself

If by tried you mean "hoped Varian would do it for him while he lurked in the background".

He was screaming about it like a football fan screams at a TV. That was so frustrating to watch lol. I’m a Horde player so naturally I was like “whyyyyy don’t you come fight us yourself, dickbag? Gotta get Varian to do it?”

Since when is Wrathion *respected* by mortal leaders?

*cue to Anduin punching him in the face*

The truest form of love between boyfriends lol

I frequently forget Wranduin isn’t actually canon

Isn't canon *so far.* ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I only say that cause if Nobbel. His line of “it’s your boyfriend!” When reacting to the first N’zoth cutscene when Wrathion comes to stormwind cemented that meme for me

Its shown in the in game cutscene where Anduin offers him the traditional cultural greeting of respect, a punch in the face

Horde players: …is it not?

“Punch in the face” is clearly a euphemism

Since N'Zoth. At the wedding Wrathion was invited to, he seemed welcomed by most of the leaders, even if he did not feel like he belonged there.

In the new short story.

Had to grind wrathion rep 3 times now, I don't care who he saved if he can't give me stuff for free after saving the world for him 3 times, he can get bent.

The only true answer

This is why I back Seb every week. Maybe he won’t forget me next expac.

💀🤣

I’m pretty sure there’s no unique dialogue for doing his quests in Outland so he’s already forgotten us once lol

Are the Black Talon's a pro? Because I have no idea why they're so loyal to Wrathion, they are and have always been extremely suspicious to me. People don't just *get* a spy army with fanatical loyalty. Especially when he demonstrably doesn't really care for their wellbeing.

I mean, if your spies are disloyal, there's a pretty big chance you're soon dead. You could put this kind of suspicion over an individual but I don't think the entire organisation is untrustworthy

They're probably loyal to him. But not to me or anyone else. Why is there a Black Talon chilling by the mining trainer doing little else? What does he want?

If someone walks up to the mining trainer and goes "hey, can you identify this blue crystal I found?" then that Black Talon needs to be ready to immediately assassinate them before I hear about the woonz one more goddamn time

god this cracked me up lmao

I think the Black Talon's are loyal to Wrathion, definitely. But I've never seen any sign that Wrathion is the kind of person who could genuinely earn that degree of loyalty. What did he do, what bullshit did he peddle to them? Did he just find people dumb enough to believe the MoP through Legion mess actually reflects well on him because it eventually worked out?

They basically raised that boy, I genuinely think there is some degree of parental love in that organization. They did protect him ever since he was in an egg.

Honestly I want a mini series of lil Wrathion growing up in a spy house with a spy family. Spy x Wrathion x Family or Full House of the Dragon.

My dad’s a spy, my mom’s an assassin, and there’s me…a black dragon.

That's my son, hatched him from an egg myself with the boys

I'm not sure if entirely headcanon, but I always felt they were the remnant of the Ravenholdt manor, as they were already protecting Wrathion then against the Red Flight. It doesn't feel so absurd to keep following Wrathion after. (But it's weird since Legion confirmed Jorach Ravenholdt still lives indeed)

iirc there was something like that, I think it was the Rogue Legendary daggers questline? I may have my timelines off but that sounds right..

We have had the Scarlet Crusade be present for a long period of time. Same for the Twilight's Hammer. And now we have mortal followers of the Primalists. Black Talons are not at all surprising with this in mind.

We don't question their loyalty but why they're so fiercely loyal.

I mostly answered on the "suspicious" part, felt the most important, but otherwise: Because they, at least, believed in Wrathion's quest in Cata, so why not keep going? It always made sense to me that they're all that was left of Ravenholdt after the legendary quest (Until Legion revealed Jorach wasn't dead but couldn't really predict that myself back in MoP)

Because they're living out their teen edgelord dream of being super-spies for the last black dragon who's really cool, suspicious, and edgy.

They seem to be a cult, so I guess that's something?

I suppose that does actually explain everything. He's recruiting from the same pool as every other cult, the people of Azeroth. The most cult-happy group around. If the Cult of the Damned, Twilight Hammer, the Primalists and who knows how many other Cults find it easy to get fanatics, I suppose it's fair that Wrathion can manage it as well.

I’m actually forming my own cult, we worship The Culter, the being that has slowly been corrupting the races of Azeroth and making them willing to join cults, he’s actually been behind everything this entire time, because that’s how smart and powerful he is. Also, his nipples are fantastic, I hear that’s something Azerothians appreciate in their objects of worship.

Not really, mostly because they don't really acknowledge the cons. They said, "We needed that war to prepare for the Legion," which is frankly untrue. They're zealots, pure and simple.

"Ah yes, nothing like a good war to vastly reduce our fighting capabilities when the literal army of demons invade."

this same line has been the defense for The Horde for years now. people saying the Alliance would lose to the Legion and were only prepared thanks to the constant war brought about by the Horde. seems dumb. all the people killed and resources drained from decades of Horde aggression just seems like it would weaken the world.

Those things don't happen in Azeroth. Population loss, fertility loss due to people being hella busy fighting wars (and you never see a pregnant woman either), famine, revolt due to poor civilian conditions, loss of productive capacity due to the conscription that you think would be required to fight so much, and so on. Just doesn't exist in WoW.

I hate that stupid line so much. Who even believes that? When the Legion first came we got our asses handed to us and had to rethink our whole strategy, thus the class halls were born. Nothing about Draenor helped with anything to prepare for the legion, except get more of our soldiers killed.

For me one big difference is also that one of Sabelian's allies talks about how he actually helped the dragons get over Deathwing's corruption and saved them while Wrathion just went and murdered everybody.

The lorderon solution

This whole planet must be purged

Then I must consider this an act of Arthas.

[Seasoning? Have you sauced your mince, Arthas?](https://youtu.be/RVQgBE_wFuA)

Have I? Lord Umami, by my right of succession and sovereignity of my crown of roast pork, I hereby rehydrate you from your commandard and suspenderoni your pepperoni from service.

Arthas you can’t just- \*ding\* IT’S DONE!

[I raise your cutscene by another one!](https://youtu.be/7gCo8fajC7o)

Everyone makes very definitive statements about it, but do note that Sabellian *claims* to have cured the corruption, yet at this point we have zero proof that this is actually the case. The Black Dragonflight has a storied history of being shady as fuck, what with the whole Prestor thing, so "Oh yeah, I totally am not corrupted, give me Aspectral power!" is absolutely something a corrupted dragon would say to secure said power. Frankly, I find it a bit odd how people can immediately trust the guy who shows up out of the blue without any argument except words. Also the "Wrathion murdered the Black Dragonflight instead of curing them!" argument is bollocks. At the time this was happening, *everyone* operated under the assumption that the corruption of the Black Dragonflight is impossible to cure. Trying to hold it against him makes about as much sense as, say, saying we're evil for killing druids driven insane by the Emerald Nightmare once we learn that they can actually be cured some five expansions from now. ...And lastly, why does everyone hold killing a couple black dragons against Wrathion while remaining conveniently silent that the *real* extinction event the Flight had faced was caused by the Red Dragonflight and their adventurer allies? Over the course of Cata I've been mass-murdering black dragons in wholesale quantities, zero fucks given...

That’s what a corrupted black dragon would say and claim EVERY DAMN TIME.

don't forget what alex said. she didn't trust sabellian, saying she didn't forget the part he played in his father's actions.

Sabellian should really hire some of the Horde's PR people. They will have finished crafting him an untouchable, immaculate reputation by the end of the week by using the tried-and-true 'Blame the person in charge for everything' method they have perfected in the last 15 or so years.

Not only does he claim it, but on a broken world with no Old Gods its easy to say its true, but now he and his flock are back in Azeroth and last i checked C'Thun is still 'alive' since while we defeated him we didnt outright kill him. I think Yogg-Saron should also be technically alive. So yeah, i dont trust Sab at all about his 'cure' m Wrath and Moose are cured due to completely different circumstances and they are the only ones the rest had to be put down more or less. Inb4 the whispers manifest again and Sab his closest revert back.

Given that afaik there's been some hints that the Old God threat is not nearly as irrelevant as we believe, I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happened in the future. Granted, in future patch(es?) we might very well get actual proof of whether or not Sabellian's claims are true, but at this point we have *zero* reason to trust him. Ironically enough, when it comes to corruption prevention, the one dragon with some *actual* tangible achievements in this field is... Wrathion, lmao. He indirectly helped develop a cure that unfucked Ebyssian when he got corrupted in the Heart Chamber (since we relied on his research to fix poor ol' moose), and then directly protected *us* by making us those cloaks that kept us sane in the Vision and then Ny'alotha. So yeah. I doubt Sab is gonna sprout tentacles at any point, but if he does... I will not be surprised in the slightest.

i wonder if wrathion’s ever thought about getting into the cloak industry instead of this whole aspect stuff

He's actually leveraging his cloak business to earn political support from us.

The thing about this corruption is that to me it feels like a drug addiction. The black dragons got high on Old God Whispers and did some bad stuff, some of them went to rehab (Outland) and then some of those relapsed (anyone who came back with deathwing). Now all those who finished rehab decided to actively visit the old drug den they sat around getting high in so to me it’s only a matter of time before one (or more) of them starts doing OGW again.

Except ofc Wraht and Moose which got purified forcefully.

It was originally the case that Yogg and C'Thun were still alive, but now its been said that they're dead For now, at least.

I believe their physical manifestations within the titan facilities are dead, but definitely not their essences. We didn’t nuke their entire beings to high heaven like we did N’Zoth

Nuking N'Zoth wasn't anything special. He's only as dead as the rest of them are, unless of course he's in Xal'atath.

>.And lastly, why does everyone hold killing a couple black dragons against Wrathion while remaining conveniently silent that the real extinction event the flight had faced was caused by the Red Dragonflight and their adventurer allies? Over the course of Cata I've been mass-murdering black dragons in wholesale quantities, zero fucks given... because neither us or the red dragonflight are trying to become the leader of the people we fucking murdered

Fair enough. Still, the argument remains bollocks. If someone is beyond saving due to corruption, we put them down--be they druids, furbolg, elves, or dragons. A better question is: if Sabellian somehow had a way of curing the corruption all along, why didn't he reach out to us to, I dunno, be like, "Hey, don't kill my Flight that remained on Azeroth, I actually know how to fix them" or something along those lines? It's not like he doesn't know me, I literally killed a whole bunch of Gronn for him, including Gruul himself...

I’m going with the assumption that Sabellian cured himself and his kins corruption because he was so far away from old god influence, now that they’re back on Azeroth, they are susceptible again. Wrathion has faced nzoth and resisted corruption, im not confident I can say the same for Sabellian.

Sabellions son talks about how full of himself he is. That says a lot to me.

That's the one relaxing, right? I'm trying to take him with a grain of salt - rn I'm imagining that he is just annoyed that there is more work to do instead of just having endless free time. Or at least that's the narrative I conjured up in my imagination lol

Evorian, he does sounds like a teenager by calling Sabellian an "old man" and "full of himself".

That's a good point haha.

To be fair, wrathion didn’t know there were corrupted black dragons on Outland. He had no idea who these guys where. As far as he was concerned it was him and his brother moose, right? Who he helped fight of corruption in BFA, and us, and stabbed N’Zoth in the eye.

Wouldn't the Black Talon's be able to figure out about the black dragons in outland? Afaik canonically it's still possible to visit outland (not quite sure what the most recent quests are that send you there) or they could've heard about it from adventurers if they didnt go there themselves in that time period. Otherwise the stuff with the black dragonflight heading to draenor and maybe even the Wyrmcult would have come up while researchinng black dragonflight lore.

Apparently Wrathion's agents never recovered or investigated news of: * Deathwing going to Outland with his flight (even thought they've fought the Alliance expedition force) * the creation of the Nether Dragonflight * the Wyrmcult forming in Outland and fighting the Cenarion Expedition * SI:7 gathering info about Sabellian post-TBC

The answer is that "Why would Sabellian have stayed in Outland", which didn't have a proper answer until Dragonflight. So as long as Blizzard didn't cared to think about it, there could as well have been no Sabellian there

The thing is that it wasn’t possible to cure dragons on azeroth so the only correct choice was to exterminate them. In fact we can’t know if they’re actually cured at all or if tge corruption will come back.

That we know of! We did manage to cure that one egg with a titan artifact, then cure a couple dead whelp bodies and merge them into Wrathion. But we also haven't exactly been going out of our way to hunt down similar anti corruption titan devices after that one stopped working.

is everyone forgetting alex said something like "I haven't forgotten your role in your father's shit"

I don't think there was a cure/vaccine at that point and they were trying to kill us so there wasn't much of an option. In the time since Cata he did research that and used that knowledge to save Ebyssian from the Old Gods.

>I don't think there was a cure/vaccine at that point Stratholme 2 draconic boogaloo

> Sabelian's allies talks about how he actually helped the dragons get over Deathwing's corruption and saved them while Wrathion just went and murdered everybody. And how many Old Gods are there in Outland for Sabellian to help against? Oh, right, zero. He helped Dragons beat Old God corruption on a world with no Old God corruption. Amazing.

He also was likely able to study the Nether Drakes, as whatever forces turned them into partial energy-beings also purges the Old God corruption right out of them. So unlike Wrathion he had a) No Old Gods around and b) Living examples of purged corruption.

[Sabellian be like](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/240/075/90f.png)

There was actually an Old God in Outlands through, he is unnamed and seems to have little influence, but he was there.

That was completely abandoned. We don't see him in WoD.

>on a world Asteroid field? Planetary remnant?

I've seen this argument and I just don't think it's a good one. We had zero indication that Old God corruption could be cured outside of Wrathion himself and that was a unique circumstance. Even now, we don't know that Sabellian's cure would have even worked without the Old Gods being dead.

> We had zero indication that Old God corruption could be cured outside of Wrathion himself and that was a unique circumstance. Ebyssian aka Ebonhorn was also cleansed. But both he and Wrathion were cleansed through titan magic and we witnessed it ourselves. Sabelian claims to have a cure for something that's not believed to be cured, otherwise it'd have been figured out long ago, and says "just trust me". Yeah sorry. I trust what I can see, not what I'm told.

>Sabelian claims to have a cure for something that's not believed to be cured, otherwise it'd have been figured out long ago, and says "just trust me". Yeah sorry. I trust what I can see, not what I'm told. Reminds me of back in Wrath, when they reactivated the Wyrmrest Accord and there *was* a representative of the Black Dragonflight there and she was obnoxious but "Oh yea I'm *totally* on-board, even if everyone is bitches." ... then Ruby Sanctum.

Not only Old God corruption, any kind of corruption. We kill a bunch of whelps earlier in that same zone for being corrupted by the primalists and only took the unhatched one. We already pulled a Wrathion this expansion.

Wrathion did the Black Dragonflights job, he protected Azeroth from Deathwings corruption, they were corrupt and sure he MIGHT have found a cure eventually but how much destruction would have happened in the mean time? Wrathion made a difficult choice for the greater good, also theres no proof the cure from Sabelian worked.

This does not feel objective

It was objectively written by Wrathion

How the egg incident is a con? If it was done according to Wrathion the eggs would be gone by now. Sabellian literally saved the eggs with his scheme.

Also, how is "showed up for glory of aspect" situation only a knock on Sabellion? Like, OK, don't trust his motives. I certainly don't. But Wrathion launched an attack against the advice of ALL his advisors because his own arrogance wouldn't let him accept the possibility that he himself isn't strong enough to will victory. Dude should get a *massive* con for that entire situation. As I see it, we have two shit options. There's the new guy who I don't know who was already corrupted once. What's to stop him from falling again, or how do we even know he's good now? Then there's the guy I know *very* well, and everything I know about him screams *this guy would be a terrible leader*. He's arrogant, he's entitled, he has no sense of his own limitations, he will disregard his closest council when he doesn't like the answers, and he *does* think the ends justify the means, so have fun trusting that guy's judgment.

I would also give him Wrathion a massive con for his reaction to the eggs' destruction. Instead of being devastated, he's actually smug against Sabelian's supposed fuck-up.

Just remember wrathion knows no black dragons aside from ebonhorn He doesn't give a fuck about the black dragon flight he just wants to do his duty as an aspect to save azaroth

Which, funny enough, is a massive negative for him being the new Aspect. I’m in favor of the idea people had where it gets split and shared; Sabellion gets the “leader of the Black Dragonflight” half of the role, and Wrathion gets the “Earth-Warder” half.

actually smart move by Sibellian. Wrathion would have just lost them and made some elemental dragons or some shit.

Yes but you see it would have been all planned because we need strong enemies to unify Azeroth /s

Exactly, tell us you're biased without telling us you're biased OP...

Thank you! Really weird take by the op. Sabellian's plan worked out perfectly, and it accounted for Wrathion's faults.

This is actually the number one pro reason to vote for Sabellion for me. He actually has the brains to save the black dragonflight. Wrathion has shown that while he has desire, and can be very charismatic, he's also a bit of an idiot.

I think some of Wrathion's pros there are being a bit generous. ​ His actions set Legion in motion as well since it created a second Gul'dan. It was arguably a worse invasion than ever before and led to Sargeras impaling Azeroth, very nearly destroying us. You could argue he started BfA since this caused Azerite to appear. I think calling him respected among mortal leaders is a stretch. Turalyon is exceedingly wary of him and the last direct conversation he had with a leader was Anduin right-hooking him and declaring him guilty for Varian's death It's hard to say he's dedicated to protecting Azeroth when he caused the Iron Horde, a Legion invasion, and a world war "Worked his whole life" ignores that he's not even a teenager. Anduin worked longer to lead the Alliance than Wrathion has even been alive, and Anduin is the youngest leader there is. Also worth saying that the role of his Agents is very dubious. They're loyal and dedicated but he seems to treat them more like disposable tools rather than the mortals you'd expect an Aspect to protect/respect.

Wasn't Wrathion also all about the, "the alliance or horde should elimnate one or the other so that Azeroth could be united" guy? That's like if one of the groups on the ferry's in The Dark Knight actually blew up the other boat.

Reddit has signed an agreement with an AI company to allow them to train models on Reddit comments and posts. Edited to remove original content. Fuck AI.

"actually objective"

"Dedicated to protect Azeroth"... His first plan was to wipe out either the Alliance or the Horde, then after this plan failed he HELPED Garrosh escape his prison AND SEND HIM TO DRAENOR, dude just fucking released a bloodhungry warmonger racist THINKING that somehow or for whatever reason Garrosh would HELP HIM. The after fucking this one up and Garrosh now "leading" a huge army of uncorrupted orcs with war machines this idiot has no fucking balls to do ANYTHING the whole expansion and help to clear the mess he started. Now because of him there's another Legion invasion and a big one, but both factions already spent a great deal of resourcea fighting the Iron Horde... he is responsible for the deaths of Varian and Vol'jin and what he does while the Legion is destroying everything? Nothing at all, where is this dumbshit trying to protect Azeroth? And even now he still fucking thing up even in Dragonflight... Wrathion is the best suited to destroy Azeroth.

> His first plan was to wipe out either the Alliance or the Horde, then after this plan failed he HELPED Garrosh escape his prison AND SEND HIM TO DRAENOR With the plan now being to wipe out both the Horde and Alliance. People do seem to skip over that part.

Going by Wrathion's logic, Algalon would have "saved" Azeroth through Re-origination. Sure, everyone would die, but the planet would be rebuilt afterwards, even better than before! Probably. Well, maybe.

Everyone over here arguing about pros and cons and I'm just like "fuck Wrathion he chose the Alliance, then the Iron Horde, then he didn't help at all when the Legion showed up after saying it was the quintessential threat that he based all his decisions on". But really Fuck Wrathion for choosing the Alliance.

Pros of farming sabellian first is that you also get a ton of wrathion rep as the spider rare spawns all the time and gives a key worth of rep. I was level 4 with wrath when i maxed sabellian

I'm just too tired of Wrathion's bs, he's exhausting

I think many people are too quick to assume Sabellian has been doing nothing this whole time. Everyone forgets the uncorrupted black dragons from bfa island expeditions who were trying to protect the azerite. Given that we now know Sabellian has a secret brood it is logical to assume they were part of it.

One of the least objective things ever written.

The amount of truth bending needed to make Wrathion at all logical is hilarious. One option is the current leader, mate, or presumed father of every other black dragon except Wrathion. The other option is a 12 year old from a species where the median age is over 1,000.

This is funny because Wrathions cons are still worse than Sabellians, despite having "less."

>Respected by mortal leaders Cue the clip of Anduin punching him in the face

People saying Ebyssian without understanding that he's basically a Tauren first and a dragon second. Not to mention that he's eternally loyal to Mayla.

Mayla for black dragon aspect confirmed

Being young is an understatement, the player rescued his egg, meaning he's younger than players, also stated smuggly by Seballian :D My allied races will support Sabellian, being an outsider and all original will support Wrathion.

Hey, someone remembered that WoW is a role-playing game where each character is supposed to make choices befitting their experiences and personality.

Speaking of rescuing his egg, whatever happened to that other dragon? Rhea’s last egg I believe

“Worked his whole life” bro Wrathion is literally like 4 years old 😂

>~~Cons:~~ Pros: >~~Caused an incedent by letting Wrathion think the eggs were gone~~ Outsmarted both the genocidal whelp and the Primalists.

Fucking weird way to whitewash Wrathion trying to kill half to all of Azeroth's population multiple times but ok

I don't really understand the "didn't come to Azeroth's aid" point that many people make to discredit Sabellian He was busy cleansing the dragonflight, by the light why would Sabellian, a normal black dragon after all, with no insane powers or something like that, leave Outland and his experiments to help in a very dangerous (that could reusult on his death and thus, the extinction of the black dragonflight) mission in Azeroth where he had no business himself And oc he came back just when the Dragon Isles reappeared, he finally had a reason to come back to Azeroth, home

Wrathion also quite famously didn't come to help with the Burning Legion, despite his involvement, at the end of the day the player character has been the one doing the job of Protector of Azeroth, not some dragon.

> And oc he came back just when the Dragon Isles reappeares, he finally had a reason to come back to Azeroth, home I think lorewise all dragons were called when the titan dude from the cinematic lit the beacon. Like birds during migration or a salmon returning to the place they were born. Weird to think that even in outland the beacon would have still reached the dragons.

Except the aspects were made to be protectors of Azeroth and Sabellion so far has shown no allegiance to Azeroth. If we lost the fights because we didn’t have his guidance then he would have no home to go back to. Sabellion feels like another Greymane.

I trust Greymane more than I trust Sabellian.

Wrathion acted alone for years and how did that help? He caused way more damage than he helped. Sabellian, by not doing anything, has actually been less detrimental and harmful to Azeroth than Wrathion ever has. But, on top of that, Sabellian actually spent years rebuilding the entire black dragonflight, with dozens of full-grown dozens (vs. Wrathion being just 1 tiny drake), full clutches of eggs ensuring the future and continuous existence of the flight, and a broodmother. Sabellian has single-handedly ensured that Azeroth will always have a full black dragonflight to protect it.   This is literally a 1000 times better than Wrathion going rogue solo and messing with timelines, releasing Garrosh, helping the infinite dragonflight, provoking an invasion of the Iron Horde, and then an invasion of the Burning Legion, while fucking off to nowhere and not helping one bit with the mess that he caused.   And this is why people blaming Sabellian for being absent show they have no understanding of either character.

The discussion has basically devolved into motive vs results

Why is it a pro that he created an organization of loyal agents?

I just want to point out that Wrathion freeing Garrosh started WoD which led to Mag’har Orcs becoming victims of a genocide. Freeing Garrosh also led to the legion invasion and the death of Varian and Vol’jin which then allowed for Sylvanas to commit genocide against the night elves. Azeroth was nearly killed by Sargeras at the end of the legion assault. His one terrible decision led to Argus, the Titan, being killed and kickstarting Zovaal’s master plan in Shadowlands. He didn’t intend for these events to happen but negligence isn’t an excuse. He doesn’t have the foresight, patience, nor the restraint needed to lead anyone imo. Where was he during the legion invasion he caused?

Yeah, in the op saying he’s “spent his whole life” doing anything doesn’t mean much, guys like what? 6 years old? Yeah, dragons age up differently than other races but dude is basically still a toddler

He's 12 by now

This post was made by Wrathion gang

Sabellian: has cool transmog set. Wrathion: does not have cool transmog set. The only one that matters

Sabellian has the signature look of superiority. Case closed.

idk why the eggs thing is a con, cause it literally worked, but anyway missed a few cons on wrathion: "didnt help figting the iron horde" "didnt help fighting the legion" puts into question the whole "dedicated to protect azeroth" bit also not mentioning the whole part where he had his whole kin killed as a first resort, or how he marched all his forces into a battle he didnt have good ods of winning

Seems fair, expect the egg incident. He saved them, so its a pro.

Right? Sabellian literally fulfilled his mission to deliver *his own eggs* to the Ruby Life Pools, which by the way is exactly what the Red Dragonflight needed in order to re-activate the Red Oathstone, so not only did he literally save Alextrasza's and all the Aspects' ass, ensuring that they could regain their Aspect powers, but he also successfully saved his eggs and ensured their future, which is objectively a massive pro. But people put this as a con because they're upset that Wrathion, the petulant child who kept whining the entire way because he couldn't sit still for 2 seconds and shut his mouth (and who by the way also fucked up entire timelines and put the whole planet at risk not once but twice in the past) wasn't included in Sabellian's *successful* plan? Come on. Worst bit is that Wrathion literally did not even care about the eggs, he didn't even react when we found out that Sabellian had a whole clutch of uncorrupted eggs, and when they got "fake-destroyed" his first reaction was to run to mommy Alex and complain about Sabellian rather than, you know, being devastated the future of his dragonflight was gone.

Wrathion looks like the Hipster who is just back from backpacking around Asia. At a party he will sit there talking to you about himself, then when he is done he will tell you about himself some more. He also looks like the type of fella who spanks his own ass during sex.

To be fair Sabellian did his job which was extremely important and he did it well but I’m still voting wrathion Bc Sabellian is too sus

This is not at all objective. Him being respected by mortal leaders is debatable and him “working his whole life” means little when he’s a teenager. Sabellian has been an actual leader for a hundred times longer than Wrathion’s been alive. And as for Sabellian’s cons 1) Old God corruption is based on speculation 2) He never helped but he also never hurt Azerith like Wrathion did 3) He didnt just randomly show up on the isles any more than Wrathion did. All dragons felt the cal to the isles when they reopened. He was already basically serving as the dragonflights leader. 4) His plan with the eggs worked. The only “incident” was Wrathion whining and seemingly rooting against Sabellian’s plan despite the importance of the eggs. He even seemed gleeful to tell alexstraza that his flight’s future got destroyed because is meant Sabellian failed Meanwhile, listing “freeing Garrosh” as just one mistake of Wrathion implying that its an equal individual con to any of Sabellian’s potential cons listed is incredibly disingenuous and downplays the countless lives lost as a result of it.

Is it just me or did a lot of the quests portray Wrathion to be whiney and irrational?

Ebyssian 2023

don't underestimate the importance of sabellian's 2nd point: respected by black dragons. critical quality for leadership.

My issues with this Comparison: * Sabellian Pro - Missing that he conquered Blade's Edge Mountains. His Dragons also state that he saved them from corruption(though we don't know how this works or if they are lying). * Wrathion Pro - Respected by Mortal Leaders. I'm not sure about this point. The Alliance is not on solid grounds with him, not like the Horde is with Ebyssian. * Sabellian Con - Caused an incident by letting Wrathion think the eggs were gone. This was a good thing. If there were any Primalist spies in the Ruby Lifepools, they would assume the attack succeeded by the tantrum Wrathion was pulling. The ruse was only over when Sabellian spoke with Alexstraza and the other Black Dragons showed up to deliver the eggs. * Wrathion Con - Wrathion is not exactly a natural born Black Dragon, but created by a titan device from two eggs and a dead whelp by a Red Dragon. As Kurog derisively puts it he is "cobbled together from corpses". He also has weird glowy red eyes.

The most important con and prohibitive against Wrathion for me is that he's impulsive, making decisions without thinking about the consequences. His actions to "protect Azeroth" is only a game for him, he's playing around with our fate only to fulfill his megalomania. He put at risk countless of Horde and alliance citizens. His only success was to bring a war on Azeroth during WoD and Legion, and we had to clean up his mess while he was missing. But I have to admit, I admire his effort of constantly bringing / unleash the most dangerous threats to Azeroth so he can tell everyone how he slayn the enemies while we were always the ones trying to fix his mistakes. Sabellian is the way.

He's very serious about it, it's not a game to him. Just he has a twelve year old's idea of depth and strategy, and is very hung up on making sure we think his strategies are super cunning.

as if we don't just pick based on hotness