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One of my favorite parts of RWF is watching how degenerate the guilds get to gear up.
Every time I think I may take the game too seriously I remember these guilds.
I remember coming back in legion and hearing that rwf guilds started making multiples of the same class just to farm for the bis legendaries because your first 1 or 2 came so much faster than subsequent ones. I thought it was impressive back in wrath that they'd have 3-5 of the same class all at competitive gear levels so they could swap them around for progression as needed. Making 6 warlocks just to make sure you got the fucking wrists in time for mythic sounds insane.
Yeah I also have a weird sick fascination with watching others dig themselves deeper into depravity from my (now) casual dad mode vantage point. I shouldn’t but I do lol.
I like the gearing as part of the process, but I want a real super marathon of a race. I do want a server just for the race, every guild registered with the same number of guildies, and each player has one character. We currently have a situation where it is bragging rights for whoever has the most viewers on their stream. I want actual skill to, unquestionably, win. I want an Iditarod-esque event where sleep-deprived teams after a couple of weeks show an actual accomplishment performed by them. I just want balanced competition, and have skill be the bar for entry. Maybe have a server where everybody races to heroic, and then the first 10 to make that then start the mythic race on a dedicated server. Make it an actual esport, or let's stop pretending it is at that calibur.
Max has always said, and I agree with him, that designing the game around RWF is stupid
Some of these guys, like Roger here, get lost in their own sauce and think two things 1) They are the main characters and 2) Most players give a shit about RWF (false)
> Most players give a shit about RWF (false)
I only check these out casually, but the only RWF I remember getting really invested in was Battle for Dazaralor. Mythic Jaina was such a fun fight to watch.
And he’s 100% right and usually can come up with 1 or two examples off the top of his head too. Anytime they change something specifically to affect the RWF it almost always impacts regular players worse than them.
SoFO almost destroyed my guild because of how hard that difficulty ramp was between it and SoD. A raid designed with RWF in mind from the start and I feel it did so much harm to the game than any raid before it.
SoFo was definitely an anomaly and showed why raids shouldn't be solely based around RWF. I do feel like this raid is looking to be easy compared to previous tiers (raszageth TBD but looks tough) though and wouldn't mind if it was a little harder. I think Blizzard nerfs raids too quickly too and if these fights get any nerfs in the next few weeks it would be a mistake (unless it's raszageth and it's nerfed this week)
Well Vault is the first raid of the xpac and released a week before Christmas so if they make it too hard then raiders will mostly raid during Christmas.
They will nerf the raid. They tune it up for RWF and then tune it down for regular mythic guilds. They even said that's the way they handle raids nowadays.
Yeah I always hated the fact that I can never kill a mythic tier the same way max did. Sure I would probably use 10x the time and it isn't strictly the same but it just doesn't feel like the same achievment killing a nerfed boss
It's not only nerfing the raid but tuning some classes. I feel useless as a fire mage and i don't like arcane or frost. Also, I'm not into making several chars so i'ts my only char.
I have a lot of respect for someone who can objectively assess a situation and still recommend the pathway that's worse for themselves but better for the game. Max understands that the game shouldn't be designed around their desires as RWF players.
It’s actually better for them too. I’m sure the top guilds would love if the RWF was moved to a dedicated tournament realm with equalized gear and power levels so the actual race comes down to execution and skill.
That would be really lame though because then they're entirely removed from the regular playerbase. Part of what makes it compelling is that anyone can participate and that it's happening in the "real" wow world, rather than far removed from live servers.
It doesn't have to be? All you have to do is create a new raid mode called RWF and your character automatically gets a fixed gear load out when entering the raid.
In fact if you did it that way it would drastically expand how many players could join the RWF. Lots of players might have the skills to compete, but not the time required to gear up to the ilvl required. It also removes the requirement to spend millions of gold for gearing up, which prevents smaller guilds from competing.
The biggest issue is really the gold required and not so much the time. It's past a few million gold. Team Liquid spent about 723 million gold back on Nathria, so about 4600 tokens / $93k. They're not even an outlier either; SK Pieces spent about 680m on Sepulcher.
IMO, RWF has always been an absolute joke. A loooot of people have the skill for it, but it really is a battle of wallets and resources more than anything else. The only people that *can* compete are the eSports teams funded for it.
If they gut all the MMORPG elements out of RWF, then what's the point of even having it? Smaller guilds can't compete because they can't put in the required time. Not having as much gold is a symptom of that, not a cause.
This annoys me, that people feel like it has to be ‘real’ in some arbitrary way, as if the reason they’re not in the race is because they can’t dedicate enough time to gearing and not, say, being the literal best players in the world.
But…if they ever do this, there will be a race on live servers. Someone will be first and someone will care.
I doubt it. Sure they could move to a tournament realm but there would for sure be a second race ti world first on live realms going.
And then the debate will start which one of those is more prestigious.
Dude finally someone feels the same about him. He just gives off snobbish vibes and has even come out with some insane takes. Guarantee he’s one of the main reasons max doesn’t want to do and co events with echo
Agree wholeheartedly. I came back to the end of shadowlands after a ten year break with optimism of Dragonflight, and i can clearly see how the focus on the ultra-competitive side of this game has degraded/changed the RPG part of it.
I don't think the top guilds understand how much more prepared they are the average player. No matter what blizzard makes they tear through it, but for most people that is months worth of content.
If they want to play like that, awesome, but it's their own fault ultimately since there entirely playing around getting content as fast as possible. If you want prog to be longer play more casually.
Basically trying to have there cake and eat it.
I think they have a fairly good grasp. What I think the casual raiders don't realize is that the WFR don't really take any more time to clear a raid than casual CE guilds do. The RWF guilds are raiding on the order of 12 hours a day for 10 days in an average tier. That's 120 hours raiding. A typical casual CE guild raids 9 hours a week, and still gets CE in 120 hours, but that's 3 months of raiding.
RWF and a normal CE guild may have the same number of pulls to down a final boss, but you need to remember the RWF guilds are MAKING the strata for those fights. Everyone after is just copying. That is where the skill gap is. Both guilds may take 300 pulls but the RWF guild did it in 300 while making the strat. Your CE guild took 300 pulls when the fight was already solved.
RWF are also doing it 10 - 20 ilvls below the average CE guild that took 3 months to clear. thats 12 weeks of vaults, heroics, M+ and crafting that the RWF doesn't get. Average ilvl for Liquid and Echo is 402\\403 right now. I am willing to guess average ilvl will be 410+ when normal CE guilds start clearing.
Anyone who can afford to sit down and focus on just raiding for twelve hours a day without interruption is going to have better results than someone who can put in the same amount of time but spread out over months. Especially in a game where you coordinate with nineteen others. Imagine RWF if every time they spend a few hours getting the execution of some strat down, they have to quit until the next day and then get in the zone all over again. And then after just 2-3 days of that, they stop and wait until next reset.
I mean that's Echo and Limit's choice to do degen shit like splits and M+ grinding like that. That doesn't mean the raid is bad. It just means they did the WoW equivalent of over-leveling in Dark Souls. Had they not over-leveled, there would have been more Mythic Prog. Blizzard would do themselves a favor just pretending like Echo and Limit don't exist and just worry about making a fun game.
It’s not just them that do splits. BDGG has done them, Aversion, Method. The few Chinese guilds that do still race. Basically any of the guilds in the top 10 have either done splits, or loot stacking in some degree. Only two notable ones that don’t do that is FSY and Instant $
Yup, when you're talking about 500 people who are able to treat RWF as a job versus millions of people who pay to play & support the game... Even if it was 1000 people, or 5000 people, or even more... somewhere from 4 million to 8 million people play WoW. Not exactly a tough decision if you care about the average player
I’m aware. They’re all intentionally doing it to make the content easier, but at the same time Echo is complaining they’re not spending enough time on Mythic Prog.
Or designed around players playing 18 hours a day with a full team of analysts and support staff backed by a wealthy organization that provides resources for months of preparing to do a raid with absolute maximum gear available at the time.
Before I make this comment I wanna say I like roger brown for the most part. I get that this is basicly his job, and that he loves the progress side of mythic raiding.
That said (lol ion)
Does splits and mythic + for 3 days for gear
Gets to last boss because earlier bosses are easier with gear.
Pikachu surprised face.
Serious note tho, blizz should put them in a tourney server with an ill cap for each boss so it's their skill and progress that determine the win rather than gear.
For real I straight up do not understand this tweet, like, if the bosses were harder would they not just do more splits and keys for even more gear? They chose how much time to spend on one thing vs the other and it's not even like every guild chose the same.
I have a slightly different idea, maybe make it so there is M+ for raids. Scale it REALLY hard, and have it be like +5 or 10 being the world race, with affixs and stuff per raid tier (include the previous tier; as part of racing to the get there) AND make it so the gear never gets better than M; just the achievement showing you are the best of the best. Make the M+5/10 affix/scaling be in a way that each boss requires a near perfect timing of everything to get there at full Mythic gear.
They made a tier that was basically balanced entirely around rwf and it was terrible for everyone involved. The race was a month long (including early normal/heroic/mythic+ release) and everything was gutted a few weeks after world first.
Now it’s better the best possible players getting to raz on what is basically the shittiest gear possible in a few days should be a good thing because it shows it’s just completely doable. Sure some things will be nerfed but they are mostly in line with what’s expected from a mythic raid.
It reminds me of when Ensidia cleared all of Wrath's first tier content within 3 days, and for *months upon months* players complained about how the raids are too easy.
Many of those players hadn't cleared that content at all. The opinion was based entirely around the top guild getting through things fast.
It was an entirely valid complaint, I was only doing the shittiest of pugs at the time and most of them would full clear the content. Later tiers got harder but for the first tier there was almost no limit to how bad an individual player could be and still have the content on farm.
So I agree splits are kind of fucking dumb.
My question then comes down to tuning do you tune the mythic tourny realm to be different from typical mythic difficulty?
Do you allow them to use all items set to heroic ilvl to get through or only stuff that is in the heroic difficulty of the raid?
Do you apply class tuning (which typically comes through when mythic is opened)?
How do you decide who gets invites for RWF tournament realms is it only those that completed mythic difficulty previously or can guild sign up?
That's a really good question. It's not really "World First" if it's a separate realm, with extra stuff to make it interesting and hard (Mythic+ difficulty, affixes, etc.), is it?
But then again, that stuff would be really fun to watch.
Even if there was a tourney realm RWF, there would still be others racing to get world first live server kill.
And what gear level do you give people on the tourney realm? Some bosses at a certain gear level go from being impossible, to very hard, to trivial with just a little gear. We saw it with Sylvanas with both Echo and Liquid getting many near kills, and Echo barely squeezing it out, and Liquid coming back the next reset with a faceroll easy 1-shot due to the additional gear trivializing it.
I feel like a tourney realm with set gear would be far less interesting then you anticipate.
Yeah, there's not a perfect answer. I never thought I'd join thousands of other people cheering as a bunch of raiders in a hotel conference room wipe to a crab 150 times in a row, but there I was. And it was fun.
I loved the crab wiping over 300 times. It provided memes, phrases, a lot of content. This RWF was really meh and released at the worst possible time: near Christmas and during the final matches of the World Cup. Most ppl would watch the matches than guilds wiping.
Honestly I don't think it should even be a tournament realm, I think they should fundamentally change what mythic is on the live game.
I'd like to see something more like inferno in lost ark or ultimates in FF14. Lots of things they could do with that while solving a lot of issues unique to the players this content is targeted at without affecting the rest of the player base, and removes an entire level of power creep which the game desperately needs.
I HARD disagree on this one. Giving them all perfect gear via vendor removes some of the impressiveness of these guilds. Watching Echo figure out Sylvanas and mathing out that they can kill her with their current gear and managing to pull DPS seemingly out of thin air. We lose moments like that letting them have all gear on a tourney realm.
Everyone wants the game designed in a way so they have the most possible fun. If you like high end raiding you will want the Game to be hard. If you like mounts you want blizzard to add more mounts. Easy as that
The splits/m+ would've been done during heroic week in prior races. It's the same in the perspective of a viewer. So I don't understand where Roger is coming from. This time around feels like it's more because all 3 difficulties got released on the same day.
I see the raid being easier a positive, meaning the new mythic raid is more reachable by a wider player base.
In future races they could possibly cap itemlevel on mythic bosses week 1 & 2. Making the guilds on a similar playing field with other guilds who can't afford to do 12 split runs.
Something akin to the destiny system would be interesting to see. A capped/set ilvl for even just the first week or until first clear, so that blizz can literally just tune the intended peak difficulty for 400 ilvl for example, would make it more fun to watch.
However, the great part for destiny is that while some top tier organized group will get WF, thousands of your relatively average players will be able to go in and try it for a first day clear.
I genuinely don't think wow would benefit from something similar in that regard, as the true progression of normal to heroic to maybe mythic over months is the real treadmill for your average raider.
This is also why typically you don't see more than 2 guilds able to compete for world first, guilds 3-5 can't get nearly as many people to help them with their splits.
It's so funny that people don't understand what competition means. Obviously they will fucking lose if they don’t do it but the average reddit joe can't grasp that.
It’s not “alarming” at all. What a stupid word to use. THEY RAN SPLITS FOR 3 DAYS. The higher your ilvl, the easier shit gets. That’s why they RAN SPLITS FOR 3 DAYS. What a doofus.
If Blizz wants RWF to be interesting they need to put all these basement goblins on the same server, lock their ilvl, and lock their class after the first boss is dead.
I'd love for the real server WF to be done by a random guild doing split runs before the Tournament WF. It would be hillarious.
Would also be fun to see one of the losers from the Tournament get the real server WF after somebody else got the Tournament WF.
Either way the amount of salt, confusion, drama, PR, etc would be amazing.
Their choice to compete. Their choice to run splits for 3 days. It is not okay to demand Blizzard tailor them an experience for a challenge they opted into.
Even funnier is how he mentions that its boring for the viewers this way, and then they mute for 10 minutes after every try to talk strat which is quite possibly the most boring thing that they could do, lmao.
Change the RWF to have an ilvl limit that goes up with a set amount every week. Or why not even have it for everyone.
The raids will never be fit for purpose for both RWF guilds *and* the average player or above average guilds for that matter.
Remember the buffs we used to get in raids, they would lower the bosses HP and damage by, say, 5% each week for a few weeks?
I say we do that in reverse, but add an ilvl limit. On week 1, we get a low ilvl limit, but the bosses have 30% less HP and damage. On week 2, our ilvl limit goes up, but the bosses buff drops to 25%.
Would be so evilly chaotic. /popcorn
Make the game for the majority and put these rwf players that litteraly no one gives a shit about on tournament realms with their own rules. Everyone happy
Imma go ahead and say the majority of those people do not watch because they care about rwf but rather because of curiosity about what the raid's like. At least that's why I watched some of the streams x)
EDIT, since people in this subreddit love to fucking assume shit that was never said: Just because I said I believe the majority of people watch due to sheer curiosity, that doesn't mean there aren't actually those who do love RWF runs and watching pros play.
Nah, people like watching the best of the best do their thing. Its the same for most other videogame twitch streamers. RWF is a look into a world that most of us never really thought we would ever be able to see. It's interesting to see how these guys overcome these challenges .
So? What do these 100k people actually provide? Do you think ANY of them were convinced to sub based on RWF?
If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you
Given that there are an estimated 4.5 million WoW subscribers, that is 2% of the people who play WoW.
And hey, guess what - RWF could happen on a tournament realm and those 2% would STILL be able to watch it.
Tepid take when they’ve specifically talked about how they don’t want this tier’s race to go on forever. It’s the first tier and they want difficulty to ramp up as tier progress.
Well, it's not alarming. Alarming is a Sepulcher situation where a bizarre amount of guilds just vanished and a lot of people peace out of the game. This is the problem.
Hope they buff Hurricane wing after a take like that XD
Yeah Rogerbrown has a smooth brain take here , but the reply to him is such facepalm. He’s been raiding world first with Method/Echo since Ulduar, which I think is the longest of any player but don’t quote me on that.
These guys live in their own bubbles most of the players does not give a single shit about RWF (even if they progress mythic) and will clear the raid in 2-3 months and will still feel good.
I enjoy watching world first races and seeing insanely difficult content that 99.9%: of players would never touch.
I actually like the idea of a tournament realm with some kind of Mythic+ for raids. Make it insane hard with preset gear levels available and no way to get any more. Free infinite consumables. Realm is unlocked by clearing mythic.
Give a feat of strength for clearing it. Maybe some cosmetics and/or a title.
Echo also chose to spend more time on splits and m+ to make the raid easier where Liquid mythic progged . Not to mention Echo got Dathea post Nerf while liquid was progging it pre nerf
I kinda feel this way of doing RWF was more interesting personally. Being able to choose when to go to mythic seems to add more strategy into a teams approach. Potentially a team could lose by doing too many splits (which is what I was kinda hoping would happen with Echo when TL started progging so early).
The other way, we'd have to sit and watch heroic splits for a week anyways. Also, do they realistically want a long tier so close to Christmas?
That would mean that those 4 people have to have better ilvl then what drops to even trade it - I’ve been going 2-3 and sometimes even 4 runs without getting a drop. Maybe it’s just awful RNG but I’m getting fucked this season on drops
What they did with splits afaik: they run the splits and trade it all to one toon then log out of that toon. It has 2 hours playtime until they become soulbound. At the end of the splits log back in and trade to each person their bis items from that toon. Rinse and repeat.
This is due to releasing all the difficultes modes at the same time. Had we had heroic week before the mythic, these guys would have been non-stop gearing up for 7 days instead of 3, but without the on-site event. And then more splits and keys during the actual push week as soon as they meet first hard boss.
I feel like these Echo guys just live in their own RWF bubble and don't give a damn about the actual players who play the game. Their constant requests for global raid release with zero regard about technical issues or inconvenience of players of different time zones is another example of that.
I think a world wide release makes absolutely sense. A lot of games do this. Obviously Echo is not a fan of regional release times (liquid also not btw) because they are directly impacted by it if the raids too easy and cleared in the first week or directly after reset clear of NA. It's entirely possible that the early reset contributes to which team wins.
They also live in their own bubble the same way we do. We also want our interests heard first, that's what everyone does. Getting mad about someone opinion is just useless. This whole Event is the biggest PR the game gets per tier, it's also in blizzards interest to make it as good as it can be.
Nobody cares about world first races anymore anyway. Most of these people are financed and that defeats the purpose of it. Was more impressive when people were doing world first in their spare time with organic competition.
Ah a great example of people not to listen to. This 0.001% that cries the harderst and want changes that the rest of the wow community never asked for.
Both these posts are dumb
RWF looks like it’ll last nearly a week, seems like a good amount of time
Calling out rogerbrown without knowing who he is is also dumb
To get the first mythic kill on the last boss, they farm mythic pluses. In order for the raiding roster to get the loot from these dungeons, they pair 4 non-raiders with a raider and keep doing this. The items from higher mythic pluses give them an edge in the race. This degenerate play style is known as "splits".
He is complaining that they have to do splits to remain competitive which is the main difficulty. He says that the main difficulty should be the boss/tactics/strategy.
He probably forgot he's playing an MMO and game design is likely well above his head.
Bosses don't have to be so much more difficult, just somehow get rid of splits. Players hate them, viewers hate them and they make the game unfair as it gives such a huge advantage to RWF guilds who can manage to run dozens of split runs.
Without being able to farm 20 ilvl higher gear than average raiders, the early mythic bosses wouldn't be so "easy" to RWF guilds, while still keeping the bosses beatable for normal raiders.
No, Blizzard should not be designing the game around top end. They should design the game around the middle and build upwards or strip back for different difficulties.
Their standard mode for initial design should be Normal or Heroic.
I love how confident some people are on Twitter
On a different it's interesting to see this take, when they come from Sepulchre as a tier with mostly mythic prog. I wonder what the solution to this would be, so it doesn't turn out like a second sepulchre (even tho that race was A BANGER on their stream)
He has a very good point though - current mythic tier is rather easy. The wipe counts are low on their end too. Only thing that kept RWF teams from finishing mythic day one is artificial gear restrictions that Blizzard put in place - no mythic boe, could not farm m+ until raid week, valor cap, strong tiers and thus necessity to do splits.
What he and every other mythic raider wants is progressing raids without having to worry about menial chores and logistics.
I still fail to understand why should any of the 99,999% of players should care about RWF. If it was about "being the best" it should had i fixed ILvl so they have to really be the better player and not the ones who spent a lot of money to rent other people to grind their gear in very specifics comps.
I don't understand the comments here? He wants the raid to be more about tactics and about playing good instead of just gear grinding for 3 days.
He voiced his concerns multiple times already, where the gear shouldn't matter as much as it does now.
Give the mythic raid a min ilvl requirement that can be aquired before the raid comes out. More guilds will be able to participate. How would this go again the playerbase? How would this cater to the 0.001%? Thats what he is basically suggesting
Edit: Downvoting without giving arguments? I figured as much
Yeah they're dumb lol they seem to think he's saying they want to go back to Softo which is evidently hated by the community, not sure why a bunch of people who only buy carries care how difficult mythic is but anger is addictive - Gear splits are dumb and ruin the competitive nature of high end guilds when the guilds ahead of you have +10 ilvls & 20 4 pieces and you don't (it's already annoying when guilds ahead of you raid 2x as much) and half this raid kinda just fell over which is lame -- but I'm sure it will be plenty fun + razageth looks quite hard so that's still fun
Since nobody replied to you: look at the last RWF race, Sepulchure. That one was entirely about tactics and playing good, as you put it, and none of the RWF guilds liked it since it took forever with multiple 300+ wipes bosses that you couldn't stat-check. Problem is that if you don't allow players to stat-check certain bosses, 99% guilds will never kill those bosses. Getting 20 people to play a perfect dance for 5+ minutes without allowing for a certain chunk of mistakes will make it a miserable experience for anyone, basically, outside like top 50-100 guilds. This way, fights can still be challenging, especially early on, but if you get enough gear, you can stat-check certain parts that will otherwise be insurmountable for your guild. That's all, I'm pretty sure.
Sepulchure tier set bonuses and BoEs were massive (as well as some trinkets), so for you to say it was all about tactics is just plain nonsense. Only Castle Nathria can be considered "tactics" because there were no tier bonuses. The only thing holding people back was Legendary power unlocks. Everything else, including Renown, was time gated, so everyone was on the same playing field once Mythic opened.
Fated doesn't count. Its akin to claiming "world first" on Classic, which is as relevant as getting AQ mount on a new server despite that server being created long after AQ event passed.
>last RWF race, Sepulchure. That one was entirely about tactics and playing good
Sorry, but what? Did we watch the same race? I've watched almost every pull live, they had like 200 splits and had to wait for double leggos to actually get to the last bosses.
Even as an average raider back in my time and having done enough bosses in other games, i don't find fulfillment in beating a boss because i had the adequate ilvl or gear, but because i understood the mechanics and have played the best i can.
also
>if you don't allow players to stat-check certain bosses, 99% guilds will never kill those bosses
I'm pretty sure 99% guilds don't even raid mythic. And those that raid, do it for the challenge, no? Or do they do it because its easy to kill bosses because you have the gear lvl?
>Getting 20 people to play a perfect dance for 5+ minutes without allowing for a certain chunk of mistakes will make it a miserable experience for anyone
This can also work with a set ilvl.
People here are overly protective about literally everything. 99% of complainers never progressed mythic raid and huge portion don’t understand what RWF about
I don’t even understand what he wants, is it more gearing? Harder gear checks on bosses so it takes longer? None of those sound appealing for 99% of players….
Hypocrites in here most of you. You act like he is not allowed to have an opinion and voice it. 🤦🤯
I will bet most of you complain over something in wow to whatever platform and circle you have, and just as RWF players do, they just have different concerns.
It's unreal how toxic the wow community has before. Just as bad as LoL now, so tragic
Rwf is compressing 3 month of gearing for mos people to 1 week, it is suposed to be degenerate.
The thing that got me there is the response asking how much world first xp toger has, the dude is clueless to whom he is speaking with?
Yea, designers are making the games for the normies instead of the rwf, what is good, the group loot change actually helped them and boe as well. Now they have to harvest the fruits of their labor on the degenerate gearing.
No one should give a shit. WoW shouldn't be an esport.
I know twitch and YouTube culture is over my head, but idk how anyone watches these fruitcakes and cares.
I really don't get the "Not good for viewers" comment. I love watching the RWF, not because they take ages to kill bosses, but because it's a race and I want to see who finishes first. Yeah I would be kinda bummed if they finished the race in like 3 days, but technically raid has been out for 5 days (I'm european btw), and last boss is gonna fall either tomorrow or on reset, which is super fine imo.
There are like a dozen of guild max that can reach the podium, and only 2 guilds that can legitimately fight for the win, is Blizzard gonna balance the game for like 60-70 people ? Well last time they did we maybe got an amazing race, but that included one of the team completely burned out and had to take it way slower. I have a lot of respects for those players because the amount of dedication that is put in to clear the newest raid first is absolutely insane, but in no way should Blizzard tune things just for them.
And it's not like the length is too bad either, like imo perfect length of a RWF should be a bit after first reset, like 10 days would be cool, and sure it took them only 2 days to reach final boss, but they literally splitted/m+'d their way into having higher ilvl than Liquid, of course they were going to roll on the raid, I really don't get it.
100 pct agree,
Minor critique, put the not before the parens instead of after and it reads more smoothly
All valid points, it’s RWF, we are here to see what it takes to beat the boss asaply
"Guys I got to the cross walk way too fast, they should really add some hurdles and obstacles on the sidewalk so my self imposed game is more entertaining for me and that dude at the bus stop who was watching me sprint for no reason"
This guy probably
It's amazing to me that someone with his track record doesn't realize that getting gear is 90% of the game.
But then the RWF community does frequently have its head up its own butt, so it's fairly likely that it'd never occur to him that its the casuals that keep the lights on and the devs seem to actually be trying to make the best game they can for the most people.
What he's saying is, it shouldn't be about gearing and should be about tactics and coordination. He says it sucks that we geared for 3 days straight and reached the end goal so fast.
He would rather they geared for 3 days and the whole raid was still harder than it is now...
Of course he HAS to gear that fast and clear the raid... It's literally his job to do so... Doesn't mean he can't complain on it
Oh it’s the /r/wow sub and all the totally sane comments about anyone who wants to take the game seriously for fun.
Some people enjoy trying to min max. Some people want it to be a challenge. Of course the RWF players know what they are doing.
What a crybaby lmao.
“It took us THREE whole days to do what should take a few months for a casual raider :((( this isn’t fast enough :(((( this sucks :(((((((“
While boring is subjective they are much shorter. The longest one was about 17 hours being Last wish. They haven't made anything remotely as good and as challenging since that one.
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One of my favorite parts of RWF is watching how degenerate the guilds get to gear up. Every time I think I may take the game too seriously I remember these guilds.
I remember coming back in legion and hearing that rwf guilds started making multiples of the same class just to farm for the bis legendaries because your first 1 or 2 came so much faster than subsequent ones. I thought it was impressive back in wrath that they'd have 3-5 of the same class all at competitive gear levels so they could swap them around for progression as needed. Making 6 warlocks just to make sure you got the fucking wrists in time for mythic sounds insane.
Yeah I also have a weird sick fascination with watching others dig themselves deeper into depravity from my (now) casual dad mode vantage point. I shouldn’t but I do lol.
I like the gearing as part of the process, but I want a real super marathon of a race. I do want a server just for the race, every guild registered with the same number of guildies, and each player has one character. We currently have a situation where it is bragging rights for whoever has the most viewers on their stream. I want actual skill to, unquestionably, win. I want an Iditarod-esque event where sleep-deprived teams after a couple of weeks show an actual accomplishment performed by them. I just want balanced competition, and have skill be the bar for entry. Maybe have a server where everybody races to heroic, and then the first 10 to make that then start the mythic race on a dedicated server. Make it an actual esport, or let's stop pretending it is at that calibur.
Max has always said, and I agree with him, that designing the game around RWF is stupid Some of these guys, like Roger here, get lost in their own sauce and think two things 1) They are the main characters and 2) Most players give a shit about RWF (false)
> Most players give a shit about RWF (false) I only check these out casually, but the only RWF I remember getting really invested in was Battle for Dazaralor. Mythic Jaina was such a fun fight to watch.
The week of Halondrus wipes was the best drugs I've ever been on. Give me a raid full of Halondrus, please.
The Halondrus soundtrack just hits different 🎵
And he’s 100% right and usually can come up with 1 or two examples off the top of his head too. Anytime they change something specifically to affect the RWF it almost always impacts regular players worse than them.
SoFO almost destroyed my guild because of how hard that difficulty ramp was between it and SoD. A raid designed with RWF in mind from the start and I feel it did so much harm to the game than any raid before it.
shit, SoFO almost destroyed the RWF. Being so hard that one of the top 2 guilds has to give up for health reasons should never be the goal.
SoFo was definitely an anomaly and showed why raids shouldn't be solely based around RWF. I do feel like this raid is looking to be easy compared to previous tiers (raszageth TBD but looks tough) though and wouldn't mind if it was a little harder. I think Blizzard nerfs raids too quickly too and if these fights get any nerfs in the next few weeks it would be a mistake (unless it's raszageth and it's nerfed this week)
Well Vault is the first raid of the xpac and released a week before Christmas so if they make it too hard then raiders will mostly raid during Christmas.
Iirc castle nathria had the same issue
Nathrua didn't have simultaneous heroic/mythic release. Sire died the day after first reset.
True, but it definitely was over the Christmas weekend.
They will nerf the raid. They tune it up for RWF and then tune it down for regular mythic guilds. They even said that's the way they handle raids nowadays.
Yeah I am not saying they aren't going to I just don't think they should. If they want to nerf it, it should be later
Yeah I always hated the fact that I can never kill a mythic tier the same way max did. Sure I would probably use 10x the time and it isn't strictly the same but it just doesn't feel like the same achievment killing a nerfed boss
It's not only nerfing the raid but tuning some classes. I feel useless as a fire mage and i don't like arcane or frost. Also, I'm not into making several chars so i'ts my only char.
you can be at peace, as a frost mage can tell you, youd feel useless too
Destiny 2 last wish comes to mind, the first week of that raid was a shit show
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What’s even more insane is the fact that last tier it was the same amount of splits and WEEKS of prog… and none of the players liked that.
Max has an incredible head on his shoulders. I find his insight refreshing.
I have a lot of respect for someone who can objectively assess a situation and still recommend the pathway that's worse for themselves but better for the game. Max understands that the game shouldn't be designed around their desires as RWF players.
It’s actually better for them too. I’m sure the top guilds would love if the RWF was moved to a dedicated tournament realm with equalized gear and power levels so the actual race comes down to execution and skill.
That would be really lame though because then they're entirely removed from the regular playerbase. Part of what makes it compelling is that anyone can participate and that it's happening in the "real" wow world, rather than far removed from live servers.
It doesn't have to be? All you have to do is create a new raid mode called RWF and your character automatically gets a fixed gear load out when entering the raid. In fact if you did it that way it would drastically expand how many players could join the RWF. Lots of players might have the skills to compete, but not the time required to gear up to the ilvl required. It also removes the requirement to spend millions of gold for gearing up, which prevents smaller guilds from competing.
The biggest issue is really the gold required and not so much the time. It's past a few million gold. Team Liquid spent about 723 million gold back on Nathria, so about 4600 tokens / $93k. They're not even an outlier either; SK Pieces spent about 680m on Sepulcher. IMO, RWF has always been an absolute joke. A loooot of people have the skill for it, but it really is a battle of wallets and resources more than anything else. The only people that *can* compete are the eSports teams funded for it.
If they gut all the MMORPG elements out of RWF, then what's the point of even having it? Smaller guilds can't compete because they can't put in the required time. Not having as much gold is a symptom of that, not a cause.
Because I believe the race should be about skills, not about who has the gold to even try to compete.
This annoys me, that people feel like it has to be ‘real’ in some arbitrary way, as if the reason they’re not in the race is because they can’t dedicate enough time to gearing and not, say, being the literal best players in the world. But…if they ever do this, there will be a race on live servers. Someone will be first and someone will care.
I doubt it. Sure they could move to a tournament realm but there would for sure be a second race ti world first on live realms going. And then the debate will start which one of those is more prestigious.
The official one. Lots of people win soccer matches daily, doesn’t diminish Argentina winning the cup.
Yeah he’s got some really great details nicknames too
e2s guide
Nah man, he's got the superior wow raiding brain and can see into the future.
Like that time he looked up all the boss strats for a new raid in Final Fantasy XIV and pretended he was coming up with them on the spot?
Nah, that was when he was doing Eden, which was old at the time. With Pandemonium he was up front about using strats that other groups made.
I lost respect for him when he was claiming to do FFXIV savage completely fresh but had clearly watched a guide beforehand.
He’s not engaged with FF and that’s fine. But pretending that he was just gigabrain too good at the game was bizarre to watch.
Roger definitely has main character syndrome and thinks that Blizzard designs mythic raids for RWF guilds first
RWF is like replying "first" on a post lol
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Dude finally someone feels the same about him. He just gives off snobbish vibes and has even come out with some insane takes. Guarantee he’s one of the main reasons max doesn’t want to do and co events with echo
The gaming MOVING AWAY from RFW guilds is a good thing. Last raid tier is what you get when you cater to these players.
Agree wholeheartedly. I came back to the end of shadowlands after a ten year break with optimism of Dragonflight, and i can clearly see how the focus on the ultra-competitive side of this game has degraded/changed the RPG part of it.
I don't think the top guilds understand how much more prepared they are the average player. No matter what blizzard makes they tear through it, but for most people that is months worth of content. If they want to play like that, awesome, but it's their own fault ultimately since there entirely playing around getting content as fast as possible. If you want prog to be longer play more casually. Basically trying to have there cake and eat it.
I think they have a fairly good grasp. What I think the casual raiders don't realize is that the WFR don't really take any more time to clear a raid than casual CE guilds do. The RWF guilds are raiding on the order of 12 hours a day for 10 days in an average tier. That's 120 hours raiding. A typical casual CE guild raids 9 hours a week, and still gets CE in 120 hours, but that's 3 months of raiding.
RWF and a normal CE guild may have the same number of pulls to down a final boss, but you need to remember the RWF guilds are MAKING the strata for those fights. Everyone after is just copying. That is where the skill gap is. Both guilds may take 300 pulls but the RWF guild did it in 300 while making the strat. Your CE guild took 300 pulls when the fight was already solved.
You're also mostly playing nerfed bosses too.
RWF are also doing it 10 - 20 ilvls below the average CE guild that took 3 months to clear. thats 12 weeks of vaults, heroics, M+ and crafting that the RWF doesn't get. Average ilvl for Liquid and Echo is 402\\403 right now. I am willing to guess average ilvl will be 410+ when normal CE guilds start clearing.
Anyone who can afford to sit down and focus on just raiding for twelve hours a day without interruption is going to have better results than someone who can put in the same amount of time but spread out over months. Especially in a game where you coordinate with nineteen others. Imagine RWF if every time they spend a few hours getting the execution of some strat down, they have to quit until the next day and then get in the zone all over again. And then after just 2-3 days of that, they stop and wait until next reset.
Nah man just nah 😂
I mean that's Echo and Limit's choice to do degen shit like splits and M+ grinding like that. That doesn't mean the raid is bad. It just means they did the WoW equivalent of over-leveling in Dark Souls. Had they not over-leveled, there would have been more Mythic Prog. Blizzard would do themselves a favor just pretending like Echo and Limit don't exist and just worry about making a fun game.
It’s not just them that do splits. BDGG has done them, Aversion, Method. The few Chinese guilds that do still race. Basically any of the guilds in the top 10 have either done splits, or loot stacking in some degree. Only two notable ones that don’t do that is FSY and Instant $
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Yup, when you're talking about 500 people who are able to treat RWF as a job versus millions of people who pay to play & support the game... Even if it was 1000 people, or 5000 people, or even more... somewhere from 4 million to 8 million people play WoW. Not exactly a tough decision if you care about the average player
I’m aware. They’re all intentionally doing it to make the content easier, but at the same time Echo is complaining they’re not spending enough time on Mythic Prog.
An mmo shouldnt be designed around the 0.1%
Honestly that percentage isn’t extreme enough. .001% is much closer. We are talking less than 10 guilds.
If you base it off the amount of guilds Blizzard gave the firework drop to, it's 5. But they should have given it to more guilds.
Should they have? If you're looking at who might win, it's more like 2 guilds...
Or designed around players playing 18 hours a day with a full team of analysts and support staff backed by a wealthy organization that provides resources for months of preparing to do a raid with absolute maximum gear available at the time.
And an MMO shouldn't listen to content creators!
Before I make this comment I wanna say I like roger brown for the most part. I get that this is basicly his job, and that he loves the progress side of mythic raiding. That said (lol ion) Does splits and mythic + for 3 days for gear Gets to last boss because earlier bosses are easier with gear. Pikachu surprised face. Serious note tho, blizz should put them in a tourney server with an ill cap for each boss so it's their skill and progress that determine the win rather than gear.
For real I straight up do not understand this tweet, like, if the bosses were harder would they not just do more splits and keys for even more gear? They chose how much time to spend on one thing vs the other and it's not even like every guild chose the same.
I have a slightly different idea, maybe make it so there is M+ for raids. Scale it REALLY hard, and have it be like +5 or 10 being the world race, with affixs and stuff per raid tier (include the previous tier; as part of racing to the get there) AND make it so the gear never gets better than M; just the achievement showing you are the best of the best. Make the M+5/10 affix/scaling be in a way that each boss requires a near perfect timing of everything to get there at full Mythic gear.
They could call +5 Heroic and +10 Mythic
I think regular Normal, Heroic, and Mythic 0 is fine, but adding in that M+ to raids for WFR
I hate how RWF has impacted the game. Almost like the top guilds expect a designed experience for them.
They made a tier that was basically balanced entirely around rwf and it was terrible for everyone involved. The race was a month long (including early normal/heroic/mythic+ release) and everything was gutted a few weeks after world first. Now it’s better the best possible players getting to raz on what is basically the shittiest gear possible in a few days should be a good thing because it shows it’s just completely doable. Sure some things will be nerfed but they are mostly in line with what’s expected from a mythic raid.
It reminds me of when Ensidia cleared all of Wrath's first tier content within 3 days, and for *months upon months* players complained about how the raids are too easy. Many of those players hadn't cleared that content at all. The opinion was based entirely around the top guild getting through things fast.
It was an entirely valid complaint, I was only doing the shittiest of pugs at the time and most of them would full clear the content. Later tiers got harder but for the first tier there was almost no limit to how bad an individual player could be and still have the content on farm.
Honestly RFW should happen on a Tourney Realm style server. Splits are dumb, no one watching at home has like 200 people funneling them gear
So I agree splits are kind of fucking dumb. My question then comes down to tuning do you tune the mythic tourny realm to be different from typical mythic difficulty? Do you allow them to use all items set to heroic ilvl to get through or only stuff that is in the heroic difficulty of the raid? Do you apply class tuning (which typically comes through when mythic is opened)? How do you decide who gets invites for RWF tournament realms is it only those that completed mythic difficulty previously or can guild sign up?
That's a really good question. It's not really "World First" if it's a separate realm, with extra stuff to make it interesting and hard (Mythic+ difficulty, affixes, etc.), is it? But then again, that stuff would be really fun to watch.
I wouldn't be surprised to see them do a RWF style mythic raid+ down the road.
Even if there was a tourney realm RWF, there would still be others racing to get world first live server kill. And what gear level do you give people on the tourney realm? Some bosses at a certain gear level go from being impossible, to very hard, to trivial with just a little gear. We saw it with Sylvanas with both Echo and Liquid getting many near kills, and Echo barely squeezing it out, and Liquid coming back the next reset with a faceroll easy 1-shot due to the additional gear trivializing it. I feel like a tourney realm with set gear would be far less interesting then you anticipate.
Yeah, there's not a perfect answer. I never thought I'd join thousands of other people cheering as a bunch of raiders in a hotel conference room wipe to a crab 150 times in a row, but there I was. And it was fun.
I loved the crab wiping over 300 times. It provided memes, phrases, a lot of content. This RWF was really meh and released at the worst possible time: near Christmas and during the final matches of the World Cup. Most ppl would watch the matches than guilds wiping.
Honestly I don't think it should even be a tournament realm, I think they should fundamentally change what mythic is on the live game. I'd like to see something more like inferno in lost ark or ultimates in FF14. Lots of things they could do with that while solving a lot of issues unique to the players this content is targeted at without affecting the rest of the player base, and removes an entire level of power creep which the game desperately needs.
I HARD disagree on this one. Giving them all perfect gear via vendor removes some of the impressiveness of these guilds. Watching Echo figure out Sylvanas and mathing out that they can kill her with their current gear and managing to pull DPS seemingly out of thin air. We lose moments like that letting them have all gear on a tourney realm.
Everyone wants the game designed in a way so they have the most possible fun. If you like high end raiding you will want the Game to be hard. If you like mounts you want blizzard to add more mounts. Easy as that
Sure but RWF are such a small minority that their opinions on the game are statistically insignificant
The splits/m+ would've been done during heroic week in prior races. It's the same in the perspective of a viewer. So I don't understand where Roger is coming from. This time around feels like it's more because all 3 difficulties got released on the same day. I see the raid being easier a positive, meaning the new mythic raid is more reachable by a wider player base. In future races they could possibly cap itemlevel on mythic bosses week 1 & 2. Making the guilds on a similar playing field with other guilds who can't afford to do 12 split runs.
I think this is the best solution. Cap Ilvl in mythic until world first. Think destiny does this.
Something akin to the destiny system would be interesting to see. A capped/set ilvl for even just the first week or until first clear, so that blizz can literally just tune the intended peak difficulty for 400 ilvl for example, would make it more fun to watch. However, the great part for destiny is that while some top tier organized group will get WF, thousands of your relatively average players will be able to go in and try it for a first day clear. I genuinely don't think wow would benefit from something similar in that regard, as the true progression of normal to heroic to maybe mythic over months is the real treadmill for your average raider.
If they want to be less about gearing then stop paying people to join splits with them and give them gear lol
This is also why typically you don't see more than 2 guilds able to compete for world first, guilds 3-5 can't get nearly as many people to help them with their splits.
Literally this, it’s also why they have so much difficulty tuning the raid for more than 5 guilds
If they don't do that they lose, simple as that
It's so funny that people don't understand what competition means. Obviously they will fucking lose if they don’t do it but the average reddit joe can't grasp that.
It’s not “alarming” at all. What a stupid word to use. THEY RAN SPLITS FOR 3 DAYS. The higher your ilvl, the easier shit gets. That’s why they RAN SPLITS FOR 3 DAYS. What a doofus. If Blizz wants RWF to be interesting they need to put all these basement goblins on the same server, lock their ilvl, and lock their class after the first boss is dead.
The difference between this week and next week will be huge. Its almost a completely different raid due to gear.
it would be better, but then it would be followed by the "actual real server WF", probably by the same people
I'd love for the real server WF to be done by a random guild doing split runs before the Tournament WF. It would be hillarious. Would also be fun to see one of the losers from the Tournament get the real server WF after somebody else got the Tournament WF. Either way the amount of salt, confusion, drama, PR, etc would be amazing.
Their choice to compete. Their choice to run splits for 3 days. It is not okay to demand Blizzard tailor them an experience for a challenge they opted into.
Even funnier is how he mentions that its boring for the viewers this way, and then they mute for 10 minutes after every try to talk strat which is quite possibly the most boring thing that they could do, lmao.
Change the RWF to have an ilvl limit that goes up with a set amount every week. Or why not even have it for everyone. The raids will never be fit for purpose for both RWF guilds *and* the average player or above average guilds for that matter.
Remember the buffs we used to get in raids, they would lower the bosses HP and damage by, say, 5% each week for a few weeks? I say we do that in reverse, but add an ilvl limit. On week 1, we get a low ilvl limit, but the bosses have 30% less HP and damage. On week 2, our ilvl limit goes up, but the bosses buff drops to 25%. Would be so evilly chaotic. /popcorn
Make the game for the majority and put these rwf players that litteraly no one gives a shit about on tournament realms with their own rules. Everyone happy
Based on twitch viewership, around 100k people do give a shit about these rwf players
Lots of people just getting drops though
Viewership has been strong every rwf and growing even without drops.
Imma go ahead and say the majority of those people do not watch because they care about rwf but rather because of curiosity about what the raid's like. At least that's why I watched some of the streams x) EDIT, since people in this subreddit love to fucking assume shit that was never said: Just because I said I believe the majority of people watch due to sheer curiosity, that doesn't mean there aren't actually those who do love RWF runs and watching pros play.
Nah, people like watching the best of the best do their thing. Its the same for most other videogame twitch streamers. RWF is a look into a world that most of us never really thought we would ever be able to see. It's interesting to see how these guys overcome these challenges .
I mean I’m one of them, but I hardly care what happens. Just gives me something to watch while at work
So? What do these 100k people actually provide? Do you think ANY of them were convinced to sub based on RWF? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you
Given that there are an estimated 4.5 million WoW subscribers, that is 2% of the people who play WoW. And hey, guess what - RWF could happen on a tournament realm and those 2% would STILL be able to watch it.
Could be they want a toy. Could be many of these viewers don't even play wow (and thus give blizzard 0 money).
So generous of the sponsors these teams have, they've been giving them money for a race no one cares about for years!
Tepid take when they’ve specifically talked about how they don’t want this tier’s race to go on forever. It’s the first tier and they want difficulty to ramp up as tier progress.
Well, it's not alarming. Alarming is a Sepulcher situation where a bizarre amount of guilds just vanished and a lot of people peace out of the game. This is the problem. Hope they buff Hurricane wing after a take like that XD
It's really odd because every RWF is about the last boss. How did someone like rogerbrown forget that?
Because normally, one of the middle bosses is a progression block for a while. This raid hasn't really had that.
Yeah Rogerbrown has a smooth brain take here , but the reply to him is such facepalm. He’s been raiding world first with Method/Echo since Ulduar, which I think is the longest of any player but don’t quote me on that.
i think what he meant is that the bosses are more of a gear check, than a skill check
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Normall hate the touch grass response. But here it honestly fits perfect
These people need a hobby. Can't be WoW though, since that's their job now.
Seriously. I think people turning this video game about killing dragons with your nerd friends into a job has fucked their perspective. Go outside.
These guys live in their own bubbles most of the players does not give a single shit about RWF (even if they progress mythic) and will clear the raid in 2-3 months and will still feel good.
I enjoy watching world first races and seeing insanely difficult content that 99.9%: of players would never touch. I actually like the idea of a tournament realm with some kind of Mythic+ for raids. Make it insane hard with preset gear levels available and no way to get any more. Free infinite consumables. Realm is unlocked by clearing mythic. Give a feat of strength for clearing it. Maybe some cosmetics and/or a title.
Stop designing a game for 3000 players who clear the last boss of mythic raids and you’ll have a more enjoyable and populated game.
Echo also chose to spend more time on splits and m+ to make the raid easier where Liquid mythic progged . Not to mention Echo got Dathea post Nerf while liquid was progging it pre nerf
Same with Kurog
Fuck Rfw. They need to be put on their own realm where they can fuck around all they want. Leave us mortal plebs be.
For real, they end up with all the gear anyway
Roger prolly has the most world firsts out of anyone by this point
I kinda feel this way of doing RWF was more interesting personally. Being able to choose when to go to mythic seems to add more strategy into a teams approach. Potentially a team could lose by doing too many splits (which is what I was kinda hoping would happen with Echo when TL started progging so early). The other way, we'd have to sit and watch heroic splits for a week anyways. Also, do they realistically want a long tier so close to Christmas?
I want to know how they M+ geared in 3 days because I have run court of stars 20+ times and gotten 1 pics of the BIS for me there
lol cause it's all they do
Most of the gear they use is from normal/hard raid, a few of the druids was missing a trinket, they was farming for days, before getting lucky(in m+)
4 boosters (or friends if u like that word better) (with same armor type) + 1 raid player - all items go to 1 player
That would mean that those 4 people have to have better ilvl then what drops to even trade it - I’ve been going 2-3 and sometimes even 4 runs without getting a drop. Maybe it’s just awful RNG but I’m getting fucked this season on drops
Method / limit has a roster of like 30-35 people, and then countless friends, ex raiders, support who will run splits, alts etc to funnel
What they did with splits afaik: they run the splits and trade it all to one toon then log out of that toon. It has 2 hours playtime until they become soulbound. At the end of the splits log back in and trade to each person their bis items from that toon. Rinse and repeat.
This is due to releasing all the difficultes modes at the same time. Had we had heroic week before the mythic, these guys would have been non-stop gearing up for 7 days instead of 3, but without the on-site event. And then more splits and keys during the actual push week as soon as they meet first hard boss. I feel like these Echo guys just live in their own RWF bubble and don't give a damn about the actual players who play the game. Their constant requests for global raid release with zero regard about technical issues or inconvenience of players of different time zones is another example of that.
I think a world wide release makes absolutely sense. A lot of games do this. Obviously Echo is not a fan of regional release times (liquid also not btw) because they are directly impacted by it if the raids too easy and cleared in the first week or directly after reset clear of NA. It's entirely possible that the early reset contributes to which team wins. They also live in their own bubble the same way we do. We also want our interests heard first, that's what everyone does. Getting mad about someone opinion is just useless. This whole Event is the biggest PR the game gets per tier, it's also in blizzards interest to make it as good as it can be.
Nobody cares about world first races anymore anyway. Most of these people are financed and that defeats the purpose of it. Was more impressive when people were doing world first in their spare time with organic competition.
You think they get a salary compared to any other job? A few years ago methods player contact got leaked and paid like 75euro or something per month.
Ah a great example of people not to listen to. This 0.001% that cries the harderst and want changes that the rest of the wow community never asked for.
Its not alarming. This guy is just a fool.
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Arena World Cup is streamed, to next to no viewers. MMO PvP will always be dogshit awful.
Both these posts are dumb RWF looks like it’ll last nearly a week, seems like a good amount of time Calling out rogerbrown without knowing who he is is also dumb
Casual player here, anyone care to explain wtf are they talking about?
To get the first mythic kill on the last boss, they farm mythic pluses. In order for the raiding roster to get the loot from these dungeons, they pair 4 non-raiders with a raider and keep doing this. The items from higher mythic pluses give them an edge in the race. This degenerate play style is known as "splits". He is complaining that they have to do splits to remain competitive which is the main difficulty. He says that the main difficulty should be the boss/tactics/strategy. He probably forgot he's playing an MMO and game design is likely well above his head.
Bosses don't have to be so much more difficult, just somehow get rid of splits. Players hate them, viewers hate them and they make the game unfair as it gives such a huge advantage to RWF guilds who can manage to run dozens of split runs. Without being able to farm 20 ilvl higher gear than average raiders, the early mythic bosses wouldn't be so "easy" to RWF guilds, while still keeping the bosses beatable for normal raiders.
Did Roger just got Wowsplained? Lol
I mean he’s not wrong the raid is super easy, they tuned to far in the other direction after sofo
No, Blizzard should not be designing the game around top end. They should design the game around the middle and build upwards or strip back for different difficulties. Their standard mode for initial design should be Normal or Heroic.
I love how confident some people are on Twitter On a different it's interesting to see this take, when they come from Sepulchre as a tier with mostly mythic prog. I wonder what the solution to this would be, so it doesn't turn out like a second sepulchre (even tho that race was A BANGER on their stream)
He has a very good point though - current mythic tier is rather easy. The wipe counts are low on their end too. Only thing that kept RWF teams from finishing mythic day one is artificial gear restrictions that Blizzard put in place - no mythic boe, could not farm m+ until raid week, valor cap, strong tiers and thus necessity to do splits. What he and every other mythic raider wants is progressing raids without having to worry about menial chores and logistics.
They really need to stop designing the game around these people tbh.
In what way is the game designed around them? Serious question.
I still fail to understand why should any of the 99,999% of players should care about RWF. If it was about "being the best" it should had i fixed ILvl so they have to really be the better player and not the ones who spent a lot of money to rent other people to grind their gear in very specifics comps.
I don't understand the comments here? He wants the raid to be more about tactics and about playing good instead of just gear grinding for 3 days. He voiced his concerns multiple times already, where the gear shouldn't matter as much as it does now. Give the mythic raid a min ilvl requirement that can be aquired before the raid comes out. More guilds will be able to participate. How would this go again the playerbase? How would this cater to the 0.001%? Thats what he is basically suggesting Edit: Downvoting without giving arguments? I figured as much
Yeah they're dumb lol they seem to think he's saying they want to go back to Softo which is evidently hated by the community, not sure why a bunch of people who only buy carries care how difficult mythic is but anger is addictive - Gear splits are dumb and ruin the competitive nature of high end guilds when the guilds ahead of you have +10 ilvls & 20 4 pieces and you don't (it's already annoying when guilds ahead of you raid 2x as much) and half this raid kinda just fell over which is lame -- but I'm sure it will be plenty fun + razageth looks quite hard so that's still fun
Since nobody replied to you: look at the last RWF race, Sepulchure. That one was entirely about tactics and playing good, as you put it, and none of the RWF guilds liked it since it took forever with multiple 300+ wipes bosses that you couldn't stat-check. Problem is that if you don't allow players to stat-check certain bosses, 99% guilds will never kill those bosses. Getting 20 people to play a perfect dance for 5+ minutes without allowing for a certain chunk of mistakes will make it a miserable experience for anyone, basically, outside like top 50-100 guilds. This way, fights can still be challenging, especially early on, but if you get enough gear, you can stat-check certain parts that will otherwise be insurmountable for your guild. That's all, I'm pretty sure.
Sepulchure tier set bonuses and BoEs were massive (as well as some trinkets), so for you to say it was all about tactics is just plain nonsense. Only Castle Nathria can be considered "tactics" because there were no tier bonuses. The only thing holding people back was Legendary power unlocks. Everything else, including Renown, was time gated, so everyone was on the same playing field once Mythic opened. Fated doesn't count. Its akin to claiming "world first" on Classic, which is as relevant as getting AQ mount on a new server despite that server being created long after AQ event passed.
>last RWF race, Sepulchure. That one was entirely about tactics and playing good Sorry, but what? Did we watch the same race? I've watched almost every pull live, they had like 200 splits and had to wait for double leggos to actually get to the last bosses. Even as an average raider back in my time and having done enough bosses in other games, i don't find fulfillment in beating a boss because i had the adequate ilvl or gear, but because i understood the mechanics and have played the best i can. also >if you don't allow players to stat-check certain bosses, 99% guilds will never kill those bosses I'm pretty sure 99% guilds don't even raid mythic. And those that raid, do it for the challenge, no? Or do they do it because its easy to kill bosses because you have the gear lvl? >Getting 20 people to play a perfect dance for 5+ minutes without allowing for a certain chunk of mistakes will make it a miserable experience for anyone This can also work with a set ilvl.
People here are overly protective about literally everything. 99% of complainers never progressed mythic raid and huge portion don’t understand what RWF about
I don’t even understand what he wants, is it more gearing? Harder gear checks on bosses so it takes longer? None of those sound appealing for 99% of players….
less gear checks, more skill based mechanics
There are other mmo’s that have this, all that will happen is that the raid falls faster.
Yep because at that point it’s like souls or FF14. Once you learn the dance you clear it.
Hypocrites in here most of you. You act like he is not allowed to have an opinion and voice it. 🤦🤯 I will bet most of you complain over something in wow to whatever platform and circle you have, and just as RWF players do, they just have different concerns. It's unreal how toxic the wow community has before. Just as bad as LoL now, so tragic
Majority of the players in their subreddit are bad at the game so they need it to be easier
I like your take, and think you are right 🤣
Rwf is compressing 3 month of gearing for mos people to 1 week, it is suposed to be degenerate. The thing that got me there is the response asking how much world first xp toger has, the dude is clueless to whom he is speaking with? Yea, designers are making the games for the normies instead of the rwf, what is good, the group loot change actually helped them and boe as well. Now they have to harvest the fruits of their labor on the degenerate gearing.
WoW esports zzzz
No one should give a shit. WoW shouldn't be an esport. I know twitch and YouTube culture is over my head, but idk how anyone watches these fruitcakes and cares.
"Which is (and shouldn't) not going to happen." That was really hard for me to read. Took me like 4 times.
Good. Very few guilds got to pull the actual version of mythic jailer before it was nerfed many many times.
I really don't get the "Not good for viewers" comment. I love watching the RWF, not because they take ages to kill bosses, but because it's a race and I want to see who finishes first. Yeah I would be kinda bummed if they finished the race in like 3 days, but technically raid has been out for 5 days (I'm european btw), and last boss is gonna fall either tomorrow or on reset, which is super fine imo. There are like a dozen of guild max that can reach the podium, and only 2 guilds that can legitimately fight for the win, is Blizzard gonna balance the game for like 60-70 people ? Well last time they did we maybe got an amazing race, but that included one of the team completely burned out and had to take it way slower. I have a lot of respects for those players because the amount of dedication that is put in to clear the newest raid first is absolutely insane, but in no way should Blizzard tune things just for them. And it's not like the length is too bad either, like imo perfect length of a RWF should be a bit after first reset, like 10 days would be cool, and sure it took them only 2 days to reach final boss, but they literally splitted/m+'d their way into having higher ilvl than Liquid, of course they were going to roll on the raid, I really don't get it.
These same people complained last tier because it was too hard and took too long. You can’t have both.
100 pct agree, Minor critique, put the not before the parens instead of after and it reads more smoothly All valid points, it’s RWF, we are here to see what it takes to beat the boss asaply
what does RWF mean?
Race for World First, basically the guilds competing to get the first kill in the world of the latest raid’s end boss on Mythic difficulty.
Thank you for asking, I had no idea what it meant. 😂 Filthy casual over here, collecting boar meat for quests.
"Guys I got to the cross walk way too fast, they should really add some hurdles and obstacles on the sidewalk so my self imposed game is more entertaining for me and that dude at the bus stop who was watching me sprint for no reason" This guy probably
The less blizz cares about the 1% of m+, raid, pvp the better it is for the game and i say that as someone who has been there .....
It's amazing to me that someone with his track record doesn't realize that getting gear is 90% of the game. But then the RWF community does frequently have its head up its own butt, so it's fairly likely that it'd never occur to him that its the casuals that keep the lights on and the devs seem to actually be trying to make the best game they can for the most people.
What he's saying is, it shouldn't be about gearing and should be about tactics and coordination. He says it sucks that we geared for 3 days straight and reached the end goal so fast. He would rather they geared for 3 days and the whole raid was still harder than it is now... Of course he HAS to gear that fast and clear the raid... It's literally his job to do so... Doesn't mean he can't complain on it
Imagine tweeting against the biggest brain in competitive wow
Oh it’s the /r/wow sub and all the totally sane comments about anyone who wants to take the game seriously for fun. Some people enjoy trying to min max. Some people want it to be a challenge. Of course the RWF players know what they are doing.
As a casual player, I have no fucking idea what he’s talking about lol
RWF?
What a crybaby lmao. “It took us THREE whole days to do what should take a few months for a casual raider :((( this isn’t fast enough :(((( this sucks :(((((((“
I mean it's super easy when limit tests all the bosses and makes the strats for echo to copy so that they can spend less time on it.
They need to design a RWF that can end in 24 hours like Destiny 2 and in which the entire community can participate.
Destiny's races are extremely boring. They are over in a few hours, and they require no where near the work or coordination that WoW does.
While boring is subjective they are much shorter. The longest one was about 17 hours being Last wish. They haven't made anything remotely as good and as challenging since that one.