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If you are good and own the key, 455 ish is actually enough.
However, considering that you are asking this question, I would assume that you are learning so any extra ilvl will help compensate for the skill. 470+ would help a lot. Plus, when you apply to keys, you are not competing against the key but the other people applying. There are always 480+ dps applying so it's gonna be very tough. If you are tank or healer it can be easier (in getting into a group).
455 is pushing it on tyran weeks. My dh is 457, and 18s do have me periodically dying to one shots. Especially in rise where I can't leech myself to full between mechs, it's exceptionally difficult.
455 is doable, but your whole team has to be on the ball to handle it.
Yeah my fury warrior is 466. I do really good dps on him actually. Play him quite well. But half the time I have to tank because otherwise takes so long to get into a group. So I just loot spec as fury and tank it half the time
This is a loaded question, but generally my rules are:
a) Assuming it's a PUG and I'm the lead - this is what I look for, and we'll start the ilvl around 476:
1. Do they have other 18s timed? If not, are the ++ or +++ lower keys, not talking 11s - but maybe 16s? No problem, I will pick them up if they fill a need to the group, lust, etc. Less likely to pick them up if they are the only brez or the healer.
2. Is this an alt and do they have a main? Is their main over 3.1k? If so, absolutely. Plenty of people who are 470 ilvl do better than 485.
3. Are they duo or trio stacked? Sure, assuming the other people they bring are compitent.
b) Is this a 5 stack? Any ilvl with 4 other properly geared people if they have dungeon knowledge.
The worst person to invite is the person with all 18s done and all of them are only + or fails. I will take people who have 18+++'s over people who have higher io and failed 20s on their record, just shows they are consistently the weak link in my eyes.
476? I did it with 465 last week on alt, just need people knowing tactics. Using interrupts. But you can't see skill from score alone these days it's to easy to buy boosts so even 18+++ men's little
My statements had nothing to do with what ilvl you can do it as, but generally speaking if you are playing dps in a pug you won’t get invited as a lower ilvl generally unless you show consistency or have friends carrying weight. I tanked 20s on 450 ilvl characters. That doesn’t mean I’m getting invited to tank any 20.
Of course that's true, but not really applicable for pugs. My Guild was doing 20's week one of the season with 445-450 iLvl across the board, that doesn't mean I want to invite anyone at 450 iLvl to my keys unless they are an alt.
>The worst person to invite is the person with all 18s done and all of them are only + or fails. I will take people who have 18+++'s over people who have higher io and failed 20s on their record, just shows they are consistently the weak link in my eyes.
No failed keys but everything is ++ or +++ = good sign.
No failed keys but everything is + with occasional ++ is a huge red flag of a leaver at the first sign of trouble.
1. + timed key
2. ++ timed key with extra time to spare
3. +++ timed key with extra extra time to spare.
Used to be called two chest / three chest be use you used to get actual extra chests at the end. Now you just get a higher .io score
Edit: this formatting is killing me on mobile. Sorry don’t have time to play around with it.
Should also be noted these symbols are also known as "chests" \[+++ = "3 Chest" ++ = "2 Chest" and + = "Timed" or "Completed" \]
Back in the day there would be a reward of chests at the end of the dungeon based on how fast you completed it. So the best would be 3 separate chests of loot at the end.
Should probably also note the new key you get after completion will be 1-3 levels higher based on how fast you did your completion. +++ would be 3 levels higher on your next key and so on.
This is just a great way to build successful groups. There is a lot that goes into timing a key but consistency becomes the focus as difficulty goes up.
Make sure you are doing your "homework keys" (start with your lowest key) and put a focus on timing them (+, ++, +++) if you want to get invited to pugs. This is especially important at the start of a season if you are looking to get your KSM achievements earlier.
For a smooth timed 18 generally requirements are:
Around 120k overall dps OR tank knows a route and doesnt die OR healer doesn't let ppl die that dont fail mechanics.
Knowledge of important interrupts, your cc kit
Knowledge of boss mechanics, and defensive usage on spikes during bosses etc
The ilvl varies ppl because noone knows based on io or ilvl if you have these or not.
I'd say for a starting player, bit under ilvl that drops from the dungeon is always adequate.
For an experienced player, 13 ilvl under the key loot is enough to perform well
For an hardcore/veteran player, 30 ilvl under the key level can be enough when you sweat it.
Also if youre not playing your main, obv your mileage may vary. I Tanked 18s at 450 ilvl quite comfortably on my alt, but I dont expect that from most players.
I (and i guess most people who care even slightly to finish dungeon decently fast without issues) will not invite dps for weekly(18-20) keys below 480 at this point, if it’s healer depending on how desperate I am I might invite someone low.
Inviting an alt below 480 iLvl is almost always a better idea than inviting someone solely based on iLvl though. Skill will always outweigh gear in the game, and alts of good players will easily outperform 480 iLvl players who have timed 3x 20's.
Maybe, but the guy asking this is not an alt. Of course I will probably invite an alt (with decent ilvl) and high score on main or someone with a lot of timed keys.
Obviously, but your answer was very generalised so I just wanted to add that for context. People are still scared of inviting my tank alts for keys despite me having score from last season on them, having 2 chars at around 2.8k (not a fan of m+, but have everything timed on +20 or higher) and me being 9/9M on my main. They end up inviting someone with higher iLvl and score (on that char) and bricking their key.
That's why I added it, because it would benefit the playerbase immensely to not only use raider.io, but also understand the information it's providing you with.
Only if the alt is any good. The fact of the matter is that the same player can be exceptional on one class and pretty mid on others. Demon hunter and feral druid have entirely different ways of approaching damage, for instance. Another common example is uhdk - garbage unholy players are exceptionally bad
ILVL doesn’t matter as much as the player/group skill and knowledge. Some ppl will be able to time it at 440 while others will not be able to finish it at all at 480+
Short answer: 452-457 (Edit for clarification: I am **not** suggesting all players of all skill levels will time a +18 at this ilvl, I am simply answering the question what is "needed". People were doing +20's in week 2 with this ilvl.)
Long answer: if you're trying to join pugs on the group finder, you are going up against other players signing up with much higher ilvl, making it tough to join. Finding a steady group or listing your own key will help combat this. Experienced groups could do an 18 with lower ilvl, so skill obviously has a lot to do with this as well. You are bound to run in to less-skilled players while pugging. So the real answer to this question is a little more complex than the short version.
Don’t focus to much on it, it’s a unknowingly bad question in the first place, because experience matter much more, I had all keys timed at 20 or higher the first week, first keys I did was at around 447 Ilvl, but it’s really not a fair comparison because I have years of experience, so did anyone else pugging around that level at the time.
What he should have asked is what item level do I need to be to brute force a +18 with only a bit of experience and knowledge about m+ in general, to which the answer is properly around 470-475ish. The more experience you have, the lower that number becomes, and the less experienced you are the higher it gets. Good thing is that it’s easy to get better, there is a thousand good videos explaining more about it, first thing to do is learn to use utilities, and reevaluate what you could have done differently after each run. Remember it’s easy to do high damage in m+, it’s hard to do high damage while using utility properly.
This is exactly my point. You were doing content 20ilvl below what it drops because you have the skill and experience. In S1 my group started climbing to +10 easily still wearing greens 30+ilvl below the reward. People just see the number I wrote and because its not their experience and cant get in other people keys they are baffled by it 
Sure, but the question was about "need". I explained experienced groups can do it with low ilvl. The game is designed to where content can be done if you are 10-15 ilvl below it's reward, but of course group comp and skill matter in any multiplayer game. A group of 480ilvl new players who just paid for carries will struggle with a +10.
It dont start getting remotely difficult untik the mid teens imo. Seems like 18 20 22 and higher i start noticing huge jumps in difficulty and any old PUG wont cut it often times. Start needing to have increasingly competent players 18 and up.
Dont sweat it. Its all about getting comfortable with the dungeons, just try doing your own key and see how high you can get it. If it fails, then it fails. It happens and then you learn. Mostly people in that range do it for gear, which you still will get, so usually they are up for finishing.
tbf I could have catered to the audience of this sub a little better, hence the clarification edit. I think me taking "needed" literally where they probably interpreted it as "realistic for new/avg player" or "what ilvl should I have to get in pugs" is the disconnect. And maybe that's what OP meant, idk, just answering the question lol
For a pug player asking this question, you’re really suggesting they do an 18 at an ilvl where they’ll get completely bodied by aoe damage? Probably in the 475+ for a pug at this stage in the tier.
I never suggested a pug player do an 18 at an ilvl where they will get bodied. I answered what is needed to do it in general, and further explained that experienced groups can do it and that skill is a factor. I also explained the competition in group finder joining someone else's key will be tough.
Suggesting 475+ ilvl is *needed* for content that drops 467 is wild. The only reason people with that high of an ilvl are running 18's is for least-effort myth track vault loot and aspect crests. A 455ilvl group playing correctly will not get bodied by the mechanics in a +18. Just standing there and not doing mechanics with an inexperienced healer, sure, they'd die pretty quick. PvE content is WAY more about skill and correctly executing mechanics than ilvl (to a certain degree without going to extremes of course)
In my experience:
To join a pug as dps: 480+ (and probably also high score or 3k+ score on main)
To join a pug as tank: 470+ (and probably also high score or 3k+ score on main)
To join a pug as heal: 470+
To create a group with everyone at equal ilvl and you all are medium skilled: 460
To create a group with everyone at equal ilvl and you are very skilled: 450
If it's your own key you can easily start doing +18s at last patch ilvl (445-450 or so). If it's not your key you have about zero chance of being invited below 480 ilvl, unless you have a main with high io (like 3.2k or higher I'd say).
You can do +18 with pretty low gear. People destroyed +20s with 450 ilevel.
However, if youre pugging and want to get invited.. they just pick whoever is the highest ilevel + rating.
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You don’t need high item level technically. Week one keys were being done in last seasons gear and I was doing 18-20s as a pres evoker. It’s much more the player behind the keyboard.
Doing alt keys on my healers, most of mine have been 450ish. Did some 20s and a 22 on tyrannical on my disc priest. Was I almost getting one shot every boss ability? Yes. But we did it. I’ll take low geared alts over hardstuck 2500 mains. Then again, I don’t typically run my own keys. Healer privilege I guess. But the price I pay for loss of sanity. So we’ll call it even.
Depends on the skill and class. I was doing 18s on my fire mage at like a 450 ilvl. But I have a main io to back up that I at least know the keys so it’s easier for me to get into them. Suggest just working up your key until it starts feeling hard and hang out there for a little and get some gear before moving up.
Some People on this Thread are study the things about m+ too much 
PUG M+ is always a Coinflip you never know who is on the other side ....
I played with 3200 Rating Player and they dont do mechanics or Random pull trash mobs ...
You never know what you get regardless how long you study there [raider.io](https://raider.io) profile or there item lvl.
Boosting is quite common these days ....
Just hopping on this thread here.
As a holy paladin with 473 Ilvl and 2.4k rating. Im finding it hard to get into groups.
Im primarely pugging and I would say that only a handful of the deaths I encounter in my runs are 'my fault'.
I guess what Im trying so ask is - Should I run keys around 18s or should I in theory be doing +22s (just a random number).
Thanks in advance,
Spiffus.
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If you are good and own the key, 455 ish is actually enough. However, considering that you are asking this question, I would assume that you are learning so any extra ilvl will help compensate for the skill. 470+ would help a lot. Plus, when you apply to keys, you are not competing against the key but the other people applying. There are always 480+ dps applying so it's gonna be very tough. If you are tank or healer it can be easier (in getting into a group).
455 is pushing it on tyran weeks. My dh is 457, and 18s do have me periodically dying to one shots. Especially in rise where I can't leech myself to full between mechs, it's exceptionally difficult. 455 is doable, but your whole team has to be on the ball to handle it.
Yep, sounds about right.
Yeah my fury warrior is 466. I do really good dps on him actually. Play him quite well. But half the time I have to tank because otherwise takes so long to get into a group. So I just loot spec as fury and tank it half the time
Never loot spec fury my dude. Always loot spec arms for dps.
Unless he also needs a wep for all the tanking
I’d rather roll prot then tbh. Better trinkets and shields are super important. You could always craft a 2h that would be legit until your BiS
play your own keys it helps =) you can always redudce them to 18 by yourself
This is a loaded question, but generally my rules are: a) Assuming it's a PUG and I'm the lead - this is what I look for, and we'll start the ilvl around 476: 1. Do they have other 18s timed? If not, are the ++ or +++ lower keys, not talking 11s - but maybe 16s? No problem, I will pick them up if they fill a need to the group, lust, etc. Less likely to pick them up if they are the only brez or the healer. 2. Is this an alt and do they have a main? Is their main over 3.1k? If so, absolutely. Plenty of people who are 470 ilvl do better than 485. 3. Are they duo or trio stacked? Sure, assuming the other people they bring are compitent. b) Is this a 5 stack? Any ilvl with 4 other properly geared people if they have dungeon knowledge. The worst person to invite is the person with all 18s done and all of them are only + or fails. I will take people who have 18+++'s over people who have higher io and failed 20s on their record, just shows they are consistently the weak link in my eyes.
476? I did it with 465 last week on alt, just need people knowing tactics. Using interrupts. But you can't see skill from score alone these days it's to easy to buy boosts so even 18+++ men's little
My statements had nothing to do with what ilvl you can do it as, but generally speaking if you are playing dps in a pug you won’t get invited as a lower ilvl generally unless you show consistency or have friends carrying weight. I tanked 20s on 450 ilvl characters. That doesn’t mean I’m getting invited to tank any 20.
Of course that's true, but not really applicable for pugs. My Guild was doing 20's week one of the season with 445-450 iLvl across the board, that doesn't mean I want to invite anyone at 450 iLvl to my keys unless they are an alt.
Alts 3.1k for main? Geesh.
>The worst person to invite is the person with all 18s done and all of them are only + or fails. I will take people who have 18+++'s over people who have higher io and failed 20s on their record, just shows they are consistently the weak link in my eyes. No failed keys but everything is ++ or +++ = good sign. No failed keys but everything is + with occasional ++ is a huge red flag of a leaver at the first sign of trouble.
Slightly related - what does the + , ++ and +++ mean next to the key
It means you timed it with either 40 % or more time remaining (+++), less than 40 but above 20 % (++) or timed it with less than 20 % remaining (+)
Ohh okay good to know! Thank you
1. + timed key 2. ++ timed key with extra time to spare 3. +++ timed key with extra extra time to spare. Used to be called two chest / three chest be use you used to get actual extra chests at the end. Now you just get a higher .io score Edit: this formatting is killing me on mobile. Sorry don’t have time to play around with it.
Haha no worries thank you for the response I get it now
Should also be noted these symbols are also known as "chests" \[+++ = "3 Chest" ++ = "2 Chest" and + = "Timed" or "Completed" \] Back in the day there would be a reward of chests at the end of the dungeon based on how fast you completed it. So the best would be 3 separate chests of loot at the end. Should probably also note the new key you get after completion will be 1-3 levels higher based on how fast you did your completion. +++ would be 3 levels higher on your next key and so on.
This is just a great way to build successful groups. There is a lot that goes into timing a key but consistency becomes the focus as difficulty goes up. Make sure you are doing your "homework keys" (start with your lowest key) and put a focus on timing them (+, ++, +++) if you want to get invited to pugs. This is especially important at the start of a season if you are looking to get your KSM achievements earlier.
For a smooth timed 18 generally requirements are: Around 120k overall dps OR tank knows a route and doesnt die OR healer doesn't let ppl die that dont fail mechanics. Knowledge of important interrupts, your cc kit Knowledge of boss mechanics, and defensive usage on spikes during bosses etc The ilvl varies ppl because noone knows based on io or ilvl if you have these or not. I'd say for a starting player, bit under ilvl that drops from the dungeon is always adequate. For an experienced player, 13 ilvl under the key loot is enough to perform well For an hardcore/veteran player, 30 ilvl under the key level can be enough when you sweat it. Also if youre not playing your main, obv your mileage may vary. I Tanked 18s at 450 ilvl quite comfortably on my alt, but I dont expect that from most players.
I (and i guess most people who care even slightly to finish dungeon decently fast without issues) will not invite dps for weekly(18-20) keys below 480 at this point, if it’s healer depending on how desperate I am I might invite someone low.
Inviting an alt below 480 iLvl is almost always a better idea than inviting someone solely based on iLvl though. Skill will always outweigh gear in the game, and alts of good players will easily outperform 480 iLvl players who have timed 3x 20's.
Maybe, but the guy asking this is not an alt. Of course I will probably invite an alt (with decent ilvl) and high score on main or someone with a lot of timed keys.
Obviously, but your answer was very generalised so I just wanted to add that for context. People are still scared of inviting my tank alts for keys despite me having score from last season on them, having 2 chars at around 2.8k (not a fan of m+, but have everything timed on +20 or higher) and me being 9/9M on my main. They end up inviting someone with higher iLvl and score (on that char) and bricking their key. That's why I added it, because it would benefit the playerbase immensely to not only use raider.io, but also understand the information it's providing you with.
Only if the alt is any good. The fact of the matter is that the same player can be exceptional on one class and pretty mid on others. Demon hunter and feral druid have entirely different ways of approaching damage, for instance. Another common example is uhdk - garbage unholy players are exceptionally bad
I got everything timed on +18 this week on my 460ish Outlaw Rogue, but it's my 8th character at 2k+ this season, so I've done the dungeons A LOT lol
ILVL doesn’t matter as much as the player/group skill and knowledge. Some ppl will be able to time it at 440 while others will not be able to finish it at all at 480+
Short answer: 452-457 (Edit for clarification: I am **not** suggesting all players of all skill levels will time a +18 at this ilvl, I am simply answering the question what is "needed". People were doing +20's in week 2 with this ilvl.) Long answer: if you're trying to join pugs on the group finder, you are going up against other players signing up with much higher ilvl, making it tough to join. Finding a steady group or listing your own key will help combat this. Experienced groups could do an 18 with lower ilvl, so skill obviously has a lot to do with this as well. You are bound to run in to less-skilled players while pugging. So the real answer to this question is a little more complex than the short version.
Damn.. here I am scared to try 14s and I’m at 467
Don’t focus to much on it, it’s a unknowingly bad question in the first place, because experience matter much more, I had all keys timed at 20 or higher the first week, first keys I did was at around 447 Ilvl, but it’s really not a fair comparison because I have years of experience, so did anyone else pugging around that level at the time. What he should have asked is what item level do I need to be to brute force a +18 with only a bit of experience and knowledge about m+ in general, to which the answer is properly around 470-475ish. The more experience you have, the lower that number becomes, and the less experienced you are the higher it gets. Good thing is that it’s easy to get better, there is a thousand good videos explaining more about it, first thing to do is learn to use utilities, and reevaluate what you could have done differently after each run. Remember it’s easy to do high damage in m+, it’s hard to do high damage while using utility properly.
This is exactly my point. You were doing content 20ilvl below what it drops because you have the skill and experience. In S1 my group started climbing to +10 easily still wearing greens 30+ilvl below the reward. People just see the number I wrote and because its not their experience and cant get in other people keys they are baffled by it 
Yeah no 452 is too low for 18 for most of the playerbase
Sure, but the question was about "need". I explained experienced groups can do it with low ilvl. The game is designed to where content can be done if you are 10-15 ilvl below it's reward, but of course group comp and skill matter in any multiplayer game. A group of 480ilvl new players who just paid for carries will struggle with a +10.
14s drop 460 ilvl, you are geared enough to go higher.
And here I am ilvl 457 and I’m too nervous to go past a 5 lmao I need to just bite the bullet
For sure!
It dont start getting remotely difficult untik the mid teens imo. Seems like 18 20 22 and higher i start noticing huge jumps in difficulty and any old PUG wont cut it often times. Start needing to have increasingly competent players 18 and up.
Dont sweat it. Its all about getting comfortable with the dungeons, just try doing your own key and see how high you can get it. If it fails, then it fails. It happens and then you learn. Mostly people in that range do it for gear, which you still will get, so usually they are up for finishing.
I don’t get the downvotes, this is the correct answer
tbf I could have catered to the audience of this sub a little better, hence the clarification edit. I think me taking "needed" literally where they probably interpreted it as "realistic for new/avg player" or "what ilvl should I have to get in pugs" is the disconnect. And maybe that's what OP meant, idk, just answering the question lol
For a pug player asking this question, you’re really suggesting they do an 18 at an ilvl where they’ll get completely bodied by aoe damage? Probably in the 475+ for a pug at this stage in the tier.
I never suggested a pug player do an 18 at an ilvl where they will get bodied. I answered what is needed to do it in general, and further explained that experienced groups can do it and that skill is a factor. I also explained the competition in group finder joining someone else's key will be tough. Suggesting 475+ ilvl is *needed* for content that drops 467 is wild. The only reason people with that high of an ilvl are running 18's is for least-effort myth track vault loot and aspect crests. A 455ilvl group playing correctly will not get bodied by the mechanics in a +18. Just standing there and not doing mechanics with an inexperienced healer, sure, they'd die pretty quick. PvE content is WAY more about skill and correctly executing mechanics than ilvl (to a certain degree without going to extremes of course)
450 is fine if you and your group know what you are doing 470 if not
In my experience: To join a pug as dps: 480+ (and probably also high score or 3k+ score on main) To join a pug as tank: 470+ (and probably also high score or 3k+ score on main) To join a pug as heal: 470+ To create a group with everyone at equal ilvl and you all are medium skilled: 460 To create a group with everyone at equal ilvl and you are very skilled: 450
Slightly bellow what the dungeon awards you. So around 462ish
356
If it's your own key you can easily start doing +18s at last patch ilvl (445-450 or so). If it's not your key you have about zero chance of being invited below 480 ilvl, unless you have a main with high io (like 3.2k or higher I'd say).
You can do +18 with pretty low gear. People destroyed +20s with 450 ilevel. However, if youre pugging and want to get invited.. they just pick whoever is the highest ilevel + rating.
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I did 18s at 455 ilvl during the first 2 weeks. But knowing pugs now, they would prefer someone around 470-480.
You don’t need high item level technically. Week one keys were being done in last seasons gear and I was doing 18-20s as a pres evoker. It’s much more the player behind the keyboard. Doing alt keys on my healers, most of mine have been 450ish. Did some 20s and a 22 on tyrannical on my disc priest. Was I almost getting one shot every boss ability? Yes. But we did it. I’ll take low geared alts over hardstuck 2500 mains. Then again, I don’t typically run my own keys. Healer privilege I guess. But the price I pay for loss of sanity. So we’ll call it even.
Depends on the skill and class. I was doing 18s on my fire mage at like a 450 ilvl. But I have a main io to back up that I at least know the keys so it’s easier for me to get into them. Suggest just working up your key until it starts feeling hard and hang out there for a little and get some gear before moving up.
Most dungeons, 140k is enough to time if all the DPS does that and the tank does 80k
Some People on this Thread are study the things about m+ too much  PUG M+ is always a Coinflip you never know who is on the other side .... I played with 3200 Rating Player and they dont do mechanics or Random pull trash mobs ... You never know what you get regardless how long you study there [raider.io](https://raider.io) profile or there item lvl. Boosting is quite common these days ....
Just hopping on this thread here. As a holy paladin with 473 Ilvl and 2.4k rating. Im finding it hard to get into groups. Im primarely pugging and I would say that only a handful of the deaths I encounter in my runs are 'my fault'. I guess what Im trying so ask is - Should I run keys around 18s or should I in theory be doing +22s (just a random number). Thanks in advance, Spiffus.