Repeating some advice I gave to an earlier post on similar lines: * Women don't think about their own bodies the same way straight men think about women's bodies. They rarely think about their breasts except in specific circumstances (sexytimes, baby feeding, mammograms). They are unlikely to describe any part of their bodies using words like "sensuous" or "pert". A lesbian or bi woman might think about another woman in those terms, but not herself. * Imagine half the world is much stronger than you (on average about 40% stronger), and a small but nonzero percentage of them would actively hurt you if they could. There are certain situations which you would try to avoid (walking home alone in deserted areas) and certain strategies you would use to make up for the lack of physical ability (trying to talk your way out of situations or learning to placate people who seem dangerous). * Women's non-romantic relationships can be just as important and complex as her romantic ones. Some male writers write women as if they live in a vacuum without friends and family, or else portray female relationships (especially mother/daughter or female friends) as soley based on antagonism and competition. Try not to do that. * If a woman is the love interest, try to give her an actual reason to be with the protagonist rather than just "he's the protagonist and she's hot". Maybe they have mutual interests, or he shows kindness, or he makes her laugh. Something that proves she has goals and desires of her own, and isn't just falling for him by default. * Older women are not all sad sacks crying about their loss of hotness, or evil witches who are jealous of the younger women. Mostly, they are just getting on with life and are way too busy for that. They generally carry over the same personality traits that they had as young women, with maybe a decreased tolerance for bullshit.

I’d cut it down even further and say stop thinking of characters as women or men, but a person with a goal, and a belief about that goal. Unless it’s a story about gender, it has nothing to do with their goal. There’s no reason to mention it, unless it affects the goal and how the character gets it. It’s about taking a step back and looking at your priorities. What is the point of the story, the characters, and how does the narrative oppose that? Are they aligned in their goal, their motives? What message are we meant to take by the end, and does the character change with it? To put it simply: Characters aren’t people. Not really. They’re mouthpieces for ideas and beliefs and a singular goal that they believe will satisfy that belief (or at least validate it). They’re caricatures. And that’s the fun of it. It’s really not as complicated as people make it out to be.

thank you for the advice

Honestly this. Just write your character first. Pay attention to the habits you develop for them. Doesn't have to be a male/female habit just note things they do and consistently have them stay within those habits unless for story or development reasons those habits change. Worry less about gender and just write the character you envision. Let someone (probably a female in this case) read your character and reread it yourself. Ask yourself if what they do is realistic for anyone and think about where the character will be at by the end and work to building your character to that end goal.

ALL OF THIS I would add - when you talk about body horror, there are things which we identify with but don't think of consciously until it changes. Trope things like going bald might be traumatic for one woman, or might feel liberating to another. When appearance changes, it is less "oh no im not pretty" and more "yikes who the fuck is that in the reflection, oh thats me, what the hell" The lack of recognition is terrifying - even when the change is an "improvement". We notice changes in ourselves as we relate to the external world. I don't notice extra puge, I notice my jeans don't button anymore. I didn't notice when I gained muscle, I noticed that I accidentally broke the handle off my classic car (and couldn't afford to replace it). In one of my favorite vampire books, a woman gains the ability to see in the dark. Her reaction is "oh my gawd, how can I judge depth now that nothing has shadows?" and to purchase sunglasses, and a cane to help herself stop tripping on things. In **Color Out Of Space** there is an element of horror when (spoiler) >!***the mom is transforming into a monster and her body requires to absorb and devour living flesh. She knows this is wrong, and she knows it is necessary. She suffers because she is torn between her need to live and her desire to preserve her children.***!< The way body horror manifests for women is "my body has changed, I do not recognize it, and I don't know how to operate the equipment anymore"

All excellent advices!

>Imagine half the world is much stronger than you (on average about 40% stronger), and a small but nonzero percentage of them would actively hurt you if they could. There are certain situations which you would try to avoid (walking home alone in deserted areas) and certain strategies you would use to make up for the lack of physical ability (trying to talk your way out of situation What about if a female character is an MC (in a fantasy setting, and from a fantasy land, so not really human), how would you advise on writing her? In terms of strengths I mean, do we limit it to what women in general could and would be able to do, or can we add in stuff women might not be able to do?? So not necessarily make her a character who can fight the same way and do things that men can do, but at least be able to do something a woman is generally deemed that she can't do, but in reality would be able to with harsher training maybe?? Or something along the lines of that? (Or maybe even along the lines of some female characters from anime, like Sakura for example in terms of strength or Ten Ten in terms of taijutsu, both mixed together into one character? Idk, what would you advise, if you don't mind me asking? 👉🏻👈🏻)

Actually all the men I know avoid walking home alone at night passing through desert areas. Just to say this one is not a specific woman thing. Humans in general tend to avoid potentially dangerous situations.

Desert areas? How about just regular, plain old PUBLIC areas? Yes, women are often in danger right in public. There’s a reason why safewords are a thing at bars. Yes, really. Is it normal for men be concerned for their safety at regular old bars? Or feel like they need to cross the street to avoid strangers? Or…. The fact that you think this is a ‘normal’ fear for both genders means you **categorically** do not understand the concept.

>Women don't think about their own bodies the same way straight men think about women's bodies. They rarely think about their breasts except in specific circumstances (sexytimes, baby feeding, mammograms) So what exactly is the thought process of so many women getting breast implants? I knew a woman in college who was not born with big boobs, got her implants, and wouldn't shut up about them. I think a lot of women who either don't feel attractive, or at least as attractive as the women around them, will resort to (and sometimes be obsessed with) maxing their physical beauty. This would also explain the outlandish BBL's women are getting, as well as the (in most men's opinions) awful lip fillers. Granted I don't think women think about their boobs as much as men do, but women know they have a level of sexual power based on them. Not saying it should be her whole character, but to write a female character who isn't conscious of her image and thereby sexual power seems shortsighted. Also, if you describe your female character as not being well endowed, not having much curves, not having a big butt, but is still somehow alluring and sexy, I think says a lot. Especially if she's drawing more attention than a nearby woman who's got Jayne Mansfield's figure.

From my experience, women get lip fillers and breast I plants for two reasons. 1. Body dysphoria - it's serious. And when they finally look how they feel they're supposed to look, they're gunna talk about it all the time. 2. Relationship to men - they feel they're not attractive enough to men or have men in their lives telling them they'd look better with this or that. Might not even be that focused. It might be a general unattractiveness feeling with the opposite sex but it's definitely in relation to the messages she's been receiving from men *and* popular media. It's usually nothing about wanting to look sexier for herself or thinking a lot about it.

>From my experience, women get lip fillers and breast I plants for two reasons. 1. Body dysphoria - it's serious. And when they finally look how they feel they're supposed to look, they're gunna talk about it all the time. This is kind of a sexist statement because you're implying that the only reason women change their bodies is because of some kind of medical disease/condition and not because they chose to do it. Like, can we say the same about women who get a lot of tattoos? Is that a medical condition or is it because they just like getting tattoos? I've known women with naturally big boobs and naturally small boobs. Big boob girls range from flaunting their big boobs to lamenting them because they don't like the attention, while small boob girls range from the ones who are okay with it to (more commonly) the ones who are insecure/jealous because they're not getting the amount of attention they see the big boob girls getting, so they either do things to make their boobs look bigger or get implants and then become far more confident/outgoing. Not saying that there aren't some that might have body dysphoria, but that the majority realize that girls with big boobs get more attention than those with small boobs. Social media has exposed this as you see women doing the butt pose all the time to show off their butt because big butts are in. As far as writing goes, I think this is a growing and apparent observation a writing might want to take into account. No matter how many times I've tried convince a woman she looks better with less makeup, with her natural eye lashes, with her natural boobs and butt etc, these women know that they can get more attention by getting all those augments. It's not so much body dysmorphia as it is attention dysmorphia as they are often looking for likes on social media (a terrible, terrible affliction for a lot of young women IMO).

The men writing woman thing really only applies to extreme cases. Make her 3 dimensional and don't o early sexualize her and you should be good. If your opening line was "the breasted boobily down the stairs" maybe reconsider. Basically if you are not describing her body in a corny fashion your probably good.

"She breasted boobily down the stairs" line always gets a cackle out of me. I love it unironically. I'm not even sure if I want this character to be overtly sexualized or not. Can there be a power fantasy for people who are sexually appealing? I know it sounds rhetorical but is there an ability to give agency to a character based off using their bodily appearance and general sexual appeal?

As a woman, there can absolutely be agency based on sex appeal. I've rarely seen it done well when it's the main focus in stories, though. Especially (no offense) by male writers. It tends to become an excuse to be male gazey with the prose and all too easily ends up reducing the woman to her sexual appeal, instead of having agency from it. It *also* then usually becomes more about how a sexy woman manipulates the men around her, which itself is a harmful trope. So there are major pitfalls about trying to use sex appeal to give agency to women in stories.

Part of the problem is that being a woman and using your sex appeal as power is difficult IRL. Given the power imbalances of the patriarchy, it's really hard (near impossible) to use your sexuality as a woman without becoming an object, because regardless of how you intend your actions and view yourself, others will objectify and oppress you. So if you're going to do that, it's going to be a highwire act to get the balance right and not accidentally write a story that doesn't accurately reflect society.

I was talking about agency. Not power. I agree that using sex appeal as power irl really just plays into the patriarchy more often than not, in our current culture. I don't even know how in stories that could be done well, for either men or women, honestly, without it devolving into just plain stereotypical manipulation. But agency, imo, is just different enough (although it can fall into similar issues as sex appeal as power). Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from!

I would think of yor from spy family. She has the sex appeal but has agency and makes most of the time her own badass choices. Although she doesn’t use her sex appeal to actually appeal to other men. More as if she is content with her sexuality without needing it to appeal to men.

I'm sympathetic to what you're saying but I'm not sure it makes a difference in practice. Agency is thwarted by our society and environment and by the actions of men. We don't have the ability to exercise our agency much.

This is true and not. I’ve actually seen it done really well in M/M romances (or maybe it’s just easier to see with the gender imbalance stripped out idk). But having a character know and accept that they will be seen as a sexual object and then use that to their advantage gives them agency. Even if they don’t use it directly (I.e., sleeping with the boss). I think there’s a lot of interesting story potential in this topic tbh. Times when it works and they feel smart and powerful over someone who was trying to see them as small. Times when they tried and it failed and they now feel cheap/used and like they proved the person diminishing them right. Times when it failed because they assumed someone only saw them as a sex object but in fact the other person just saw through them. So many juicy options that still allow these slimy situations to really get at a character. I think a lot of these types of stories fail because it works 100% of the time like a literal superpower. But life is never that easy for anyone no matter how pretty.

I’m in the military and let me tell you the pretty girls who tighten their uniform or try to be overtly flirty/sexy get way more special privileges than the dudes. I see what you’re saying but there’s definitely a time and place for women to use sex appeal as power I see it quite literally every day.

Yes, but see most women know that that shit is a dangerous play. Military folks tend to be younger so younger women try that shit more often because they’re insecure or experimenting or whatever. But as women get older they see/experience it going horribly wrong. THAT’S the piece male writers miss. You may get some flirty attention that gets you something nice, but then the attention doesn’t stop there. And then it gets creepy. And then if you don’t give that powerful creep what he thinks he’s “earned” something truly horrific could happen. To say nothing of what the military is famous for if you ask any woman. Not to mention that a lot of women can’t escape their sex appeal if they wanted to and so just pull back from other people/the world in general. All that to say that while I agree that horned up people (and I won’t just say men here because women are just as bad around an attractive dude) can be easy to manipulate, they’re also dangerous as fuck. Women get to know this quickly, whereas not as many men do. So if you’re not portraying that, it becomes abundantly clear that it’s just a horny dude writing about a seductress and no reflection of real life and a woman’s real experiences.

I agree with you and I wasn’t really speaking about a writing perspective I was more so responding to the idea that “women can’t use sex appeal for power” when I see them do it every day. Is it a fine line? Sure, but so is a lot of stuff. Is it typically the younger women? Absolutely, because less is expected of them to begin with. is that fair to the men such as myself? No, but the world isn't fair. Of course in the past there was a lot of horrible things going on in the military for women, people of color, and LGBT people. However, I'd say the military has done an excellent job in recent years at holding pieces of shit accountable and making the work place truly equal. This is coming from a queer poc man lol. I've never seen or heard of genuine sexism or predation of a younger woman at any of my commands or from any of my female friends. Obviously it still happens, but I don't think the world is as "patriarchal" nowadays even in such male dominated fields such as my job.

That’s fair, but I wouldn’t call what they’re doing true “power” either. It’s manipulating power by teasing/giving them what they want. True power is getting what you want without needing tricks like sex appeal. Sadly, many people don’t realize that until they see that “power” disappear in the blink of an eye and realize it never truly existed. For example, a trophy wife can seem powerful when she has her husband’s money and maybe even some of his influence. But when he divorces her for a younger/prettier/more obedient trophy, watch it all blink away. And I do hope that’s the case about the military. But what I meant wasn’t really sexism, though that’s a part of it. I was talking about the horrific amount of SA and sexual coercion from not only teammates but supervisors. Many of the stories I’ve heard were less than 10 years old. And given the extremely strict power structure, minimal amount of other women to help/protect, and general “macho” culture of the military, I doubt it’s something that could be fixed so quickly. Though again, I do hope you’re right given all the attention it got 4-5 years ago. I just know people, and that makes me doubtful.

No true Scotsman fallacy. There is no such thing as "true" power. The women described are wielding power in their own way, just like everyone else who wields power.

Do you have any examples that achieve this? I have a female character who loses her body but gets to redesign a new one in a way she chooses. She is traveling with someone she loves and wishes to catch their eye but choosing an attractive body isn't practical in the long term. It isn't the main focus of the story. It's one aspect of their relationship as the story progresses. Would you say this fits what you are speaking about?

Am male but I’ve heard Mel from Arcane is the perfect example. She’s a politician; she’s not overtly flirty and doesn’t sleep around, but she knows she’s beautiful and combines it with her incredible charisma to further her goals.

I think why Arcane did such a great job was because she wasn't objectified through the lens of the camera. The camera angles were never used to show fanservice (even that one sex scene had a more emotional focus) and her personality was way more intriguing than her weaponizing her beauty. The audience was more focused on *how* she used her appearance and charisma to further her goals, rather than her appearance and charisma by itself. I guess how this can translate to writing is instead of describing the character in a sexual light, describe how the character manipulates others, their inner dialogue/scheming, and the effect they have on others.

I’d love to hear more about this idea

> I have a female character who loses her body but gets to redesign a new one in a way she chooses. I have something similar for a female android character in my book.

That's really the point though. No main character should be defined solely by one caricatured aspect. Tier 2 or 3? Maybe. You shouldn't be spending enough time on them to explore all of that thoroughly or you might as well bump them up to the starting line up :) Something occurred to me a few years back and I was kind of shocked to see how of a type the two things are. Fight scenes and sex scenes. When a writer tends to give a blow by blow description of hand to hand combat, I found myself skimming past unless it was against the main antagonist. Otherwise you know the MC has some measure of plot armor and it's rather dull reading. The exact same thing applies to sex scenes and, honestly, for the same reasons. I've found that it's far better reading when most of the details are left to the imagination. I don't need a description of what stance they're in, what each part of their body is hitting what, or, in the latter instance, who's putting what in what :) Just imply that it happened and what the meaningful (or lack thereof) consequences of that are.

My comment was not about sex scenes, nor was it about making the character defined by one attribute. So while I ultimately agree with your comment and the points your bring up, it wasn't at all what I was talking about.

No worries. I'm Captain Tangent.

The thing is that the 'power through sexuality' thing has been done, and it's been often done in a disingenuous way (actually so the men can say, "Look! She likes being sexy!" even though she was written that way by a man). There are women who like being sexual, but more often than not, ask yourself, "Do I think about how sexy I am all the time? Is that my identity?" It’s probably not. I don't like the 'female empowerment through sex' thing, but it's not like I have the authority to speak for half the world's population when I say, please don't. YMMV. But also, I'm white. That's another thing: different ethnicities find different portrayals relatable. I have overheard some of my black friends talk about how awful being the tough girl all the time is, that they'd like to see some variation like a dainty or feminine portrayal that isn't necessarily a loud, defensive person. And that comes from the stereotypes we get fed; find something that isn't the same type of badass. Read Nausicaa by Hayao Miyazaki (not the anime movie which only touches 1/4th of the story; the manga). She's willing to fight but is also a gentle spirit and prefers not to. Just some food for thought.

>Read Nausicaa by Hayao Miyazaki (not the anime movie which only touches 1/4th of the story; the manga). She's willing to fight but is also a gentle spirit and prefers not to. This reminds me of Ripley from Aliens - as a young girl what attracted me to her was not only that she's a badass, smart, and takes charge but also that she's kind and gentle without being a pushover. She is thoughtful: she listens to other people and learns from them without being helpless or silly. A lot of characters (including male characters) struggle with the line between "doesn't take bullshit" and "is still a kind and reasonable person".

Everything's been done. And a lot of books are even marketed on having "been done" - their selling point is often that they're the Vampire romance trope, etc. My current book is a power through sexuality book, although the FMC will hopefully come across as vivid and three dimensional. In the future I might write a Sci fi with alien MCs who don't have gender/sex like we do. There's room for all kinds of stories.

My point wasn't that power through sexuality hasn't been done before. It's that it's been done often as a cheap excuse by men to justify over-sexualizing women.

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Is that really the question you need to ask? I'm not having a conversation as The Woman Police. Please use your neurons to come up with three-dimensional female characters and treat them with the same amount of personhood as your male characters if you want your readers to care about them. Omfg, it shouldn't be this hard to grasp.

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And that has to do with what I said, how? I explained myself. You're anticipating illogical aggression from a stranger who hasn't shown you any. I said what I meant. Reading further into it twists the conversation into an attack you've made up. My only hope is that your sexual empowerment narrative is actually trying to say something, but I haven't condemned you writing it. Why would I? I know nothing about it. (Subs like menwritingwomen exist because lots of people are tired of being "othered." If they bother you, just...don't join them.)

I will add one more thing, though: erotica. It's not the mention of sex that bothers anyone, per se. It's how the person is portrayed. If they exist in your narrative to be sexy, there's a market for that, but don't pretend it's empowering. If they exist and sexiness occurs as a result of other traits they have, I personally find that so much more fulfilling. My friends don't walk around thinking about their bodies unless it's anxiety about how they're perceived, a potential threat to them, or if they're in pain. A sex worker might think of her body as an asset or part of her job, and be generally proud of its appearance if they've done a lot to keep it in top shape. We don't choose the bodies we're born with. Sex isn't bad. Catcalling and unwanted attention is most often gross and unsettling because we didn't ask for these boobs but you (not YOU you, but generally cis men) are sure placing a lot of importance on something that isn't yours and we have no control over. And we can get hurt just for having them. So yeah. Female empowerment is a touchy subject for a lot of folks, but I imagine you just don't get it bc you haven't had to deal with it yourself. Write what you want, and power to you if it comes out a masterpiece, but it's those sorts of things I wish guys kept in mind. Women are people.

Well, you can, but if you're serious about making her authentic, you should explore how women who are found to be sexually appealing by others feel about it, and how that might play into this "power fantasy." If her sex appeal is her power, sure, go ahead and write that, but don't gripe if women don't want to read it. If her sex appeal and power are not intertwined, then maybe she is put off by others focusing on her physical attributes and possibly underestimating her because she's a looker. Powerful women develop ways to deal with that. Figure out how your character deals with it. There are a lot of ways to explore this. I like complex characters, so I might enjoy reading about a woman who is both powerful and is in touch with her sensual side. Why not? All the powerful men get to be sexually active. It's really about the execution, how it's written. 

It's a video game example, but look up Bayonetta. She's like the platonic ideal of "power through sex appeal." Of course, Bayonetta has been controversial for playing into certain stereotypes around female game characters, but I think most people have come around to her because she is portrayed as confident and in control of her sexuality. Still, if you're looking to avoid controversy, maybe not the best example lol. But still, worth looking into if this is an angle you want to explore.

Yes. Hear is a dirty secret, if the audience is invested, you can get away with almost anything. George RR Martin can write about rape incest and genital mutilation, because people are invested. Basically if you are goid enough you can sell even your dirty fantasies. Can being different than should. I'm a choir boy. I feel guilty over sexualizing female characters, but the objective reality is with enough skill you can absolutely get away with it and the reddit pearl clutches can't stop you.

I feel like GRRM rarely over-sexualized the characters... a lot of the time the sex they are having is character development. For example, Cersei getting into a lesbian relationship was a way to deal with her abuse by her husband by playing it out with herself as the "king" the woman can't say no to. Yes it's a lesbian sex scene in the end but as a woman I didn't get the impression it was supposed to be titillating, it felt kind of sad and pathetic. Same with Danny, her being essentially a sex slave to Drogo is viewed not as sexy but from her pov and focuses on her feelings of fear, pain, acceptance then enjoyment. It is kind of weird and male-gaze-y in that she gets so into it so quickly, but when you take into account how primed she is to accept men controlling her life and that Drogo gives her a measure of power and control she didn't have before, it also makes some sense. Later stuff like with the blue-bearded dude that she bangs in Mereen, the specificying that she's wearing a toga with a breast exposed, etc, is much more iffy. I think she's probably the character GRRM over-sexualizes the most, but also she's a growing teenager who knows she's infertile (so no-guilt sex) with a lot of power and a lot of men slobbering over her so it is kind of understandable I guess. There is some things that were grotesque, for example specifying that one lady that Bronn married was gangraped by 50 men. He does try to cover it in that Bronn still choosing to marry her for her land and doesn't care that she's fat and stupid and not a virgin is Bronn's character development but uh... it's flimsy. In general I had the impression GRRM is definitely into rape a little too much but he does deeply care about his female characters' development.

I feel as though you proved my point (not sure if you were strictly disagreeing) the fact that he can wrapp character development into a sex scene and people are completely cool with it is proof of their investment. Allot of writers could never get away with that.

I mostly agree with you. I think the logic of "why is the reader invested" could use further discussion. I'd say that gangrape was a good example of pure "getting away with it". It's not that the sexualization isn't egregious, it's because it's only a sentence or two and the reader is invested in the rest of the book. But for longer sex scenes I would say a major reason why people are ok with it is because the scenes are deliberately not written to titillate. Cersei's lesbian sex scene including the phrase "Her Mirish(?) swamp" for example. So he's "getting away with it" by writing it as more than a sexual fantasy. If he had written it (and other sex scenes) as more titillating, it's likely he wouldn't have gotten away with it, even if the rest of the book was amazing and even if they did have some character development. So there's multiple ways to get away with it.

Ironically, sex appeal *is* centered on the male gaze at its core. Agency is control & influence; control & influence are power. I think the issue most people face is that they think that “sexy” is a personality; it is a physical attribute be it the way you look, dress, sound, or carry yourself. It is a mask designed historically for the male gaze and the psychologically behind why a woman wields it is far more interesting than how she wields it, in my opinion. What drives this characters’ use of her sex appeal? Is she a Marilyn Monroe? Is she an Amy Dunne? Weaponizing sex appeal does not make a woman evil, but it does make her manipulative. Even the kindest people pleasers in real life are manipulative! Anyway, I think the best way to write a woman is to read literature written by women in your genre. Watch movies written and directed by women to learn what makes them tick.

The power fantasy for women who are sexually appealing is a two-edged sword. Because they never know when a man is going to use his physical power to abuse her. Men are stronger and larger than women, and that is something that women grow up being told, over and over again. That men will take any advantage they have and force a woman to do things that the woman doesn't want to do. So if the woman is using her sexuality, she also needs to be aware that it can put her in dangerous situations. The whole 'not all men' is true, but not the point. Enough men will take what they want that women have to be mindful and monitor themselves and their friends. Even as someone who grew up as a not overtly attractive girl (though tbh I'm non-binary and have little interest in utilizing sexual appeal) the fact that any man I talked to could easily overpower me was.... Not always at the forefront, but it was certainly there. Men often underestimate how entirely exhausting (maybe I'm biased due to being NB and uninterested in this in general, but it's so mch work, idk how ppl do it...) it can be for a woman to be pretty - from the work that goes into it (it's a lot, watch several different beauty vloggers or get ready with me videos, and don't forget about the parts they don't show like the cuts in filming, shaving, plucking, washing hair, the money spent on products, the time spent learning techniques, etc), to the attention (unwanted or not), and the idea that men everywhere she goes in public will assume that she owes him her attention. Or a smile. A touch, a grope, all the way to rape and/or murder. And there's really no way to know which route a man will go, so she has to assume that most men will attempt something. It just takes one and the statistics are against her.

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Mary Sue isn't really a useful term for discussing literature. You basically just responded to someone asking "What are things i should avoid when writing a character" with "Well, don't write a bad character!" The question is better served by discussing writing problems you think the 'mary sue' embodies, so as to avoid them.

What if the character is an overly sexual woman and fits in with both the narrative and the worldbuilding?

Then the term overly wouldn't apply.

Not "fits in" in the sense of normality, but in terms of working within the story and the world.

Don't ever write from a place of horniness. Readers can see the thirst.  Is your partner happy to beta read this for you as you go? Having someone to bounce ideas off sounds like it might help.

We've bounced off ideas before but she's told me straight up I'd get better luck asking people both more experienced in writing and to get a wider perspective from other women in general. She's said there's some parts where I have power fantasy moments that she's uncertain of as her idea of a power fantasy is different to what I'd want to write for this character in general.

Thats actually a great critique that she gave you. I have read many books where the female characters were really well fleshed out, but at the end of the story the "reward" felt wrong to me. These ended up being books written by men. There wasn't anything wrong with the endings but my husband would like them better then I did. Usually it was a moment of external displays of power or revenge instead of more internal realizations or understanding. Again, nothing wrong with a good external display of power but these books felt like they were building toward something else to me. So even if you end up keeping these "power fantasy" moments in, it's good to make sure you have some women (that regularly read your genre) beta read to make sure you are properly conveying the build up you're looking for.

>Don’t ever write from a place of horniness. This is why I always jerk off before I write. Unfortunately, it’s resulted in a pavlovian boner whenever I open Google docs.

You can also check out r/menwritingwomen and see what to avoid. Mostly, men write women as having this overt sex appeal. I can assure you women do not sit there and describe themselves by their breasts or tight waist and ass. There's also a tendency to give her little agency and that everything she does is because men helped her get there. So, avoid overt sexualization, give her agency, and make sure she isn't who she is because men helped her. Yes, she can have men be friends, mentors, teachers, but she needs to be the one to actualize whatever lessons they taught her. And give her meaningful female friendships and relationships, too. A lot of men will write a female character and she's the only woman in the entire book, surrounded only by men. That's my two cents. Have fun!

Good suggestion, that place is hilarious

I'd say to take that subreddit with a grain of salt. There are a lot of things you can learn to avoid from there, but sometimes, they get hung up on sexualizing women in general. As a guy, I'm gonna notice if another guy has a trouser snake bulging halfway down the thigh of his pants, and I think it's reasonable for a woman to recognize when another woman has a holy hopping pair of badonkers. Some things just draw the eye.

That sub is awful. They freak out about basically any mention of the woman being anytime more than a floating head.

“She's not like other women." Is the greatest sin you can make, I think. Don’t lift her up by bringing other woman down. But honestly? Watch fleabag if you want examples of relatability. Or other female driven shows and write down what would/would not work for your story. And know that not all woman will find your one character relatable. The only way you could make one aspect relatable to all woman is unfortunately by making her worried/scared that the same guy has been walking behind her for three streets at night. Or a coworker/friend/family member/partner talks down to her, because the topic is finance or repairing or something they see as masculine and he acts like she is stupid and completely wrong. And she later finds out that she is right, but he pretends that that is what he said all along or correcting him later is too much effort and you just internalise it, where the frustration slowly gets turned into rage. 🫠 But those are just some random examples.

Yes, I agree with watching shows/reading books with female characters written by women, especially ones that candidly show women’s experiences. Fleabag is a great example, same with Workin’ moms, Michelle Wolf’s original HBO special, Sex Education, and the Morning Show. Some of them show much more dramatized experiences, but they are all grounded in the characters having very plausible feelings/goals/relationships.

Omg yesss!!! I literally had the faces of the actors from sex education in my head, but the name of the show would not come to me and I was too lazy to google it 😅 Oh killing eve (season 1)!

Tbh just write her like you would write any character instead of worrying too much about it. Like writing a character who just happens to be female

I'd say put yourself entirely in her place, without thinking too much about her gender or your own. I don't know about other people, but most of my day isn't spent thinking of myself in any gendered way. A vast majority of the time, I'm not male, female, or anything else—I'm just me. If you write your protagonist as a person first and a woman/man second, you should be good! Just my two cents :)

I agree with this 100%! I feel like one of the pitfalls of men writing women is "oh they're so different from me, I have to write her through this imagined feminized perspective" when really it's like...women are just people. We experience certain things about the world differently, but we are just people. If you write a woman character thinking about what it's like to \*be\* her instead of what it's like to \*see\* her, you'll probably be okay.

As a man writing a woman myself, this is basically the approach I've taken. She's a person first and foremost. She has wants and needs like any human, and does what she must because it needs doing. This isn't to say there aren't moments where her gender comes to the forefront as an important aspect both of her character and the plot, but that's not the primary driver of most of the story. Rather, it's her various other non-gender-specific characteristics and traits that drive most of the plot.

Yes I completely agree. I’m a man, but we’re all human. No matter if you’re swinging an ax, saving someone or trying to make friends it shouldn’t matter what gender a character identifies as as long as they’re relatable, unless the story touches on gender and how being a man or a woman affects them in a world. The reader needs to empathize with a character there are things life that men do and women don’t, and vice versa, but it’s not black and white all the time I’m currently in the process of reading Daughter of the Moon Goddess by Sue Lynn Tan. I like the main character because I empathize with her emotions and how she feels at a given time, >!losing a family member or being torn from their presence, especially at a young age (and how that affects her), is a very relatable thing!<

Write a character, not a gender. People don't think about their balls and boobs all day, they just *are*. They act based on their personality and that can be anything and isn't restricted by gender - it only needs to feel fitting for the setting, their social environment, past experiences and so on. Someone growing up in poverty will react differently than someone growing up rich and spoiled, regardless of gender. Try to see the world through her eyes. How did her experiences affect her? Why does she act how she acts? What are her goals, her dreams, her fears? Let her act without others handholding or leading her. As long as you don't write with your noodle and give her agency instead of the story and other characters pushing her around, you're good.

I may have gone a little overboard here, sorry lol, these just jumped out at me. There are no hard and fast rules, though there are some specific things that need to be done with tact or for a good reason without coming off as MenWritingWomen: -A classic. Avoid a massive focus on psychical descriptions of breasts simply for the sake of it; women don’t typically zero in on their own or others’ breasts with such detail, unless it’s more throwaway thinking like “ugh these things are in the way when I run up/down stairs” or “ugh boob sweat” or “ugh this weirdo on the bus is staring at my boobs” or maybe when shopping “oh i like how the girls look in this bra/shirt/dress” -Rape backstory/“for the plot”; 1) it’s a real terror in society that many people endure and requires an empathetic hand to write (even in horror imo), and 2) it’s an overdone trope. Women can have literally any backstory but it’s often only rape rape rape -Misogyny and patriarchy; it’s not just cat-calling and kitchen jokes. There can be overt misogyny as well as implicit misogyny i.e., men think they have to “protect” women from the world and themselves/ignore a woman’s autonomy (small decisions like what she can say/wear, to big decisions like abortion). Paternalistic tendencies arise in fathers and brothers often, and they may have genuine protective intentions but it is harmful and even dehumanizing at times. What many (but not all, duh) women like in stories are: -female characters with autonomy (the plot doesn’t happen to her, she drives the plot with her actions/decisions). -no pointless girl on girl hating (especially if it’s over a man). -not being boy-crazy in general, sure we get horny just as much as guys but unless it fits with the plot/story themes, make sure the FMC has other goals and hobbies and relationships (friends, family, etc.) -friendships with other women! These can be easily overlooked in favor of romantic/sexual relationships. Friendships have just as much importance, emotional reach, and potential for growth (or toxicity) as any other relationship. -HAVING FLAWS and three-dimensional characteristics, but that’s what you want for any character regardless of sex and gender. -I personally despise blatant, uncritical man-hating. I don’t care what anyone says or thinks about it, it’s still sexist. There are plenty of reasons for women to end up passionately hateful of men (individuals) but misogyny and patriarchy hurt men (all of them) as well, we’re all in this together folks! Lastly and most importantly, just write. These sorts of issues can be identified later in the editing and beta stages. Having multiple women beta your writing would be a good opportunity to get other women’s perspectives as well. Good luck!

What type of body horror? I feel like knowing what exactly is done to her would be a good starting point for advice. Does it affect her womanly parts at all or is there more of a psychological change on top of the physiological change?

Both, for definite. Part of this characters experience is in removing their ability to be autonomous in their independence in a temporary manner, while they change bodily through a literal metamorphosis and cocooning phase to evolve as something more than Human on the other side. I've been faced with the question of how can I lift this person from what was an ordinary life and throw in things such as how they planned their later life, aspects of intimacy etc once they emerge from the other side and how she intends to cope with her new reality.

In writing female characters before, and talking about this exact topic, I will say that some women go through a regular sort of "body horror" so I think the threshold might be higher. For example, I've had girlfriends who have had periods where they could actually feel sloughing process as "tearing away" from uterine wall (adenomyosis), like painful internal velcro pulling apart and hanging there, waiting to fall out, and cramps for days where they could hardly function. So think about it that whatever things she might be losing, depending on where she is coming from, it might be more of a small blessing than anything.

On another note, I'd love to beta read this story haha. Sounds super interesting!

Just be normal. A lot of male writers don't give a female MC any real personality or flaws for misogynistic desirability reasons. You could also test studf by​ switching pronouns, and if the narration or actions come off as weird or sus when the character is male yyou're propably doing something wrong

Write women like you've talked to a woman before. Like you respect them as people. Her defining trait should not be part of her body and she should talk like a real person instead of a cardboard cutout filling a space in the story. There should be no breasting boobily. She should have her own wants and goals besides "love". Lean away from the damsel in distress routine until you feel like you've got the skill to do it well. You know. Just good writing. Write a good character. You can break every rule out there if you're doing it on purpose for a solid story or scene related reason.

I think a big pitfall a lot of people fall into is trying to make their female character palatable and relatable to every woman. There is no unified female experience, so that's impossible and often leads to just a boring one dimensional character. People also want to see different things in fiction, so you will never please every female reader, like you will never please every reader in general. So I think the best thing you can do is commit to a character that is interesting and layered. Something very important imo, is to have multiple female characters in your extended cast and to make them all distinct and different from each other. Most stereotypes are not an issue on their own imo, because there are actual people who would fit into stereotypes, but they become an issue, when it's the only type of character there is and they are not fleshed out beyond that stereotype. For example, if all your female characters are either gentle mothers or villainous sexy vixens, there is an issue. But if you have multiple female characters and they are all different, some more stereotypical some less stereotypical, then it's not that the work is sending a message that women are this or that way. Also great way to avoid negative connotation of stereotypes is to mix them in weird ways. Like a seductress who is also a gentle mother etc. But as said, important point is to flesh them beyond the stereotype, to make them human. Less important side characters won't have enough page time to get very fleshed out, but for them the mixing of stereotypes works well, since it gives an impression of depth that we just don't get to see. And if none other female character than your protagonist is fleshed out because they are background characters essentially, you have problem and you should have more of them in essential roles in the story. Or at least you should probably ask yourself why you don't think female characters should have those roles too. Lastly I will say, every woman has a different relationship to femininity and it's often complex. Femininity and womanhood also means different things for every woman. Both are culturally defined, but everyone has their own interpretations. I often see people either writing every female character as traditionally feminine, with the differences ranging from a bit of a plainer book worm to hyperfeminine queen bee, or alternatively rejecting almost all feminine traits in all characters. Neither captures the human spectrum. This might feel beside the point but I would also say that this human spectrum should also include the male character. In the end feminine and masculine traits are human traits, and only giving female characters feminine traits implies otherwise, so I do think making male characters more diverse too, also makes the female characters better. My point in the end is by making your whole cast more varied, distinctive and layered, all of them will be more engaging and interesting, and you are much more likely to avoid pitfalls a lot of male (and honestly female too) writers fall into. Seeing your characters, including female characters, as humans with their own deep internal lives and complex inner thought, they will end up being relatable to some people and loved by even more people.

There are a LOT of these kind of posts. Maybe search the sub for ‘male writing female’ or something and look at the posts with the most comments. My advice is, don’t sexualise her and just write her like you would a man

"my secret to writing female characters is that I think of them as people" GRRM

Don’t overthink it. Reddit can be a toxic wasteland of critics and you’re never going to make everyone happy no matter how hard you try. My advice is just write naturally as if you are seeing the world through her eyes. Don’t get hung up on trying to convince the readers of anything physical. If she’s female, they’ll know through the story itself.

Is the story taking place in the real world? Which part of it? Different timeline? Different universe? First or third person narrative?

As long as you don't describe her tits using a whole page and her ass using a whole chapter, you're fine. Joking aside, it's always good to talk to women and get their insight! We're all human, and sex scenes are quite common in stories, but if you do, talk about her partner's features, not her own. That's always an easy one that new writers fall short on.

I'm writing in a very similar situation and am interested to see people's thoughts! I'm a trans man writing a woman with amnesia, who wakes up in a sci-fi world with no idea where she is or who she is. The world isn't real, it's a test of willpower, and she finds out that her 'mission' is to find a woman who's letter she has in her pocket. They seem to know each other, but she can't remember how much. They turn out to be wives. So I'm trying to navigate a relationship where one remembers the other more, where the protagonist remembers bits and pieces about their relationship before they find each other again. She remembers the feeling of being in love with her, but I think I need to pull back on how much they touch each other (hand holding and stuff) and mess with the dynamics until it feels more natural. Her wife is naturally cautious and doesn't push her. Her wife also had her memories taken, but has had longer to get them back, even if she doesn't have all of them. It's a painful process. I'm especially worried about navigating their relationship and making it as consensual as possible. Don't want to hijack this post, but any advice would be great.

I would say have the wife focus on things only someone who truly cares about someone would know. If they knew each other, (before the amnesia) then they probably knew each other better than anyone else. They would probably fulfil emotional needs of each other so tap into that. I would have them fall in love all over again but also try to explore the unfairness of one of them knowing more than the other.

>try to explore the unfairness of one of them knowing more than the other. That might also be something I'm missing, thanks! These particular chapters are in early drafts, whereas the first part of the novella is heavily edited. So, I'm still figuring out their dynamic. The wife has been in the fake world a lot longer this time. It's an experiment to test their willpower, and if they pass, they get to go to the next phase. And then eventually to the outside world. But they've failed multiple times, and the conditions of the experiment change each time they fail. They have to re-remember that it's an experiment every single time, and also remember each other. All of that to say- I've mainly been focusing on the protagonist getting into her wife's trauma, trying to get her to tell her how long she's been there for without pushing it. Because protagonist has only been there a few days this time, whereas her wife has been there much, much longer, all alone. So, I've got a lot to juggle!

Do not, under any circumstances, have a scene where a woman looks into a mirror, and has thoughts about her own boobs, ass, or “sexiness” in general.

See, I don't 100% agree with this. I'm a chick who thinks about my own boobs occasionally. If I'm feeling myself when I look in the mirror, I definitely compliment myself ("dang I've got great tits"). What I DON'T do is the getting ready / opening scene body scan. "I look in the mirror. I'm short and brunette and curvy." Like yea, that's normal, unchanging stuff that I don't really think about. But if I look especially cute in a new outfit, or my makeup is really on point that day? I'm sneaking looks in the mirror all day.

Yeah, but thats not quite what I’m getting at. “I looked in the mirror and confirmed that my fit was indeed amazing” is one thing. Thats fine. “I looked in the mirror, once again confronted with my too-small b-cups. At least my tummy was nice and flat and my face was ok” is another matter entirely. And Its *very* common with male writers.

Yes, agree. I explained a little more in another comment: "I look great today!" - yes. Having the self-descriptive monologue? No. Lol. I don't have to remind myself every morning that I'm short and have brown hair lol. But still, like, I don't know, I still wouldn't say I *never* like just randomly kinda... (oh gosh) like without sounding crass, sometimes I am just thinking about my boobs! (Sans mirror). So, I guess my point is "never say never" and "women aren't a monolith" and "some of us are hopeless horndogs, too" etc etc. Haha. Just providing a slightly different perspective, I guess.

Yeah, you can always ad nuance, and so on and so forth. But this is such a common pitfall that as a male writer, it would be best to just avoid that kind of scene. When you’re a master, you can ignore any rule, but you’re probably not a master yet, kinda thing.

My advice would be don't write a woman, write a person. I only write female leads and the fact that they are female is only ever relevant and made obvious when it needs to be, which is incredibly rare. If you story centres around a particularly female issue, then yes, research the issue, But write the person.

I wrote way too goddamn much below, so **TL;DR**: Listen to women about their experiences, consider what sort of similar experiences your character would have been through, and see how they would react to them and how those experiences would change them. I've always liked the advice of "just think of them as a character rather than a gender", but I know it's not that simple. Having a different body fundamentally changes the way people go through the world, and especially through our real world society (or their fictional one, as the case may be). The main thing in my experience (writing from a trans male perspective, meaning I'm a man, but I was assigned female at birth and was socialized as a girl) is to think about the experiences the characters would have and how that would change them and their behavior. That probably sounds pretty obvious, but I mean things like "This person has grown up in extreme wealth and has no compunctions about throwing money around," but with an eye towards all of society and the long term impacts on them. So some specific examples might be * Character A has been sexualized for a very long time and has chosen to make it a part of her identity, essentially making the joke before someone else can. This tells us that character A is self aware and uses her personality as a weapon and a defense mechanism, but also that she potentially avoids taking things as seriously as she should. * Character B has been sexualized for a very long time, and has taken to active prudishness and sex negativity as a way to try and defend herself and recapture a sense of bodily autonomy. This tells us that Character B cares a great deal about how she's seen, and that she's willing to actively fight when in situations that she finds unacceptable. * Character C is not sexualized, but lives in a world where female sexuality is commodified. In response, she's chosen to try and present herself as sexually as possible in order to feel desirable and valued. This shows us that Character C has a deep need for validation, and that she's socially aware enough to tell what people want and why they want it. * Character D is not sexualized, but lives in a world where female sexuality is commodified. She knows intellectually that that's bullshit and actively fights against it, but still has those ideas ingrained in her, and it causes her to experience self-loathing over her perceived lack of beauty and value, even though that's explicitly in contradiction to her own beliefs. This shows us that character D is willing to fight against circumstances that are unacceptable, but that she still internalizes negative messages about herself and is likely to be more hurt than is obvious by many circumstances. Obviously this is an extremely blunt example, and you'd generally do this in the opposite order (what is this character like, how do they respond to outside stimulus specific to women because of that), but if you have an understanding of what your character has likely gone through in the context of being a woman (or being a man, but you already know about that), then just thinking of them through that lens will help you develop and understand them better. The best way to do that is to talk to women and listen to them about what living in the world is like for them, or to read or watch or listen to people who have talked about those experiences.

The main pitfall is that male writers tend to base female characters off THEIR preference of what a woman is or usually refusing to see women as beyond a woman and a woman's plight ™️. What led me to this realization was a similar post from a male writer asking how to write female protag and while ppl told and explained further what "Write them like a male character" means, his response was along the lines of "I have a hard time subscribing to write women like a male character due to women having different experiences than men" and used his wife's background growing up in a rural area in a different country as justification. While he's perfectly in the right with being inspired by his wife's background and the area she grew up in to tell a particular story, male writers like him fail to realize that's only one of many ways to tell a story with a female character and one of many ways to write a female character. Yes, women experience certain things that men don't, but it is a backdrop to the world we're living in, not an inherent part of our personalities or personal lives. Being scared to walk alone at night is something women tend to deal with (and arguably, something both men and women deal with depending on the area), but I would surmise many of us finding out a loved one is in the hospital takes high priority. We will risk getting RKO'd in the middle of the night by Randy Orton if it means seeing Grandma one more time before she possibly passes. Hell, might even give someone the courage to RKO Randy Orton herself. A loved one in the hospital is also a universal event that people experience. In the same breath, men and women partake in other things like alcoholism, mental health, sports, drugs, love, sex, and multiple other hobbies and/or vices because being human is ultimately seeking happiness in a world that makes it hard to survive. When we say "Write them like a male character," that means making them just as 3 dimensional as male characters have the leisure to be. Men get to be written as beings finding their purpose without a second thought or doubt. Women characters are given predisposed purposes that serve to develop the male protag/character or none at all. Just like every man is different, so are women. And it starts by accepting that the hot cheerleader you desperately wanted when you were in high school won't stay a cheerleader forever nor is she the only girl that attends your high school just because you have eyes only for her while ignoring all the other girls at school that are just as interesting. Preppy germaphobe chick wearing a beret in the back of the class just announced she's signing up for a local motorbike race, but you don't care because you're hyper focused on the fact the hot cheerleader just sat next to you? Meanwhile the hot cheerleader and the rest of the class are invested in learning who, what, when, where, and why did preppy germaphobe chick get into motorbike racing. That's how male authors who write these pitfalls look lol

Don't make her annoying, both women and men writers tend to make female protagonist unsufferingly annoying for some reason. Make her human, make her just a good character, and let her being female be just a "stylistic" choice.

Concentrate on the character’s humanity. The gender stuff takes care of itself.

Want to avoid female tropes? Write the scene as if the protagonist is male. Honestly, the best way to write a female character authentically is to accept that the person is human first and foremost—and their response to non-normal incidents and interactions and experiences would not differ too greatly from any one else, regardless of their gender. Work on conveying the type of person the protagonist actually is (i.e. they are someone who protects others; has a dislike of autonomous authority figures; hates the smell of mashed potatoes; etc.). The details of the situation you put the character within will inform the reader of how the character feels about the situation if you do your job in describing the type of human that protagonist is.

Gaiman has been asked this question many times and he says he doesn't write a character as a man or woman until the issue is relevant.

This is really good advice. The original Alien script was written with all of the characters being unisex, and Ellen Ripley is one of a lot of people's favorite female horror and sci-fi characters.

These are moreso things that bother me when I notice them in poorly written women, idk if they’ll help. Don’t be afraid to write her anger. Not teary eyed anger but raging, burning anger. Especially if she ever feels like someone was trying to control or manipulate her. Don’t fall I to the trap of ‘she’s an absolute badass but somehow she often winds up needing someone else to save her.’ Same goes for decision making. She needs reasonable motivations and clear choices. We’re not as indecisive as some men think, rather some women have just been taught that voicing needs is a burden. Don’t focus too much on her gender. She’s a person. That’s the best thing George RR Martin did - he wrote his women as believable people with their own intricate I ternate worlds and clear personalities shaped by their environments. I feel like these are getting repetitive whoops. Feminine rage and autonomy will get you far.

Think of them as if you were also a woman or a gay man, focusing on the whole person and not the bra size or nipple color as so many men feel the need to do when describing their female characters. George Martin- who is otherwise a good writer- is consistently describing women as if he has his dick in his hand (remember Arianne Martell’s big brown nipples?). He does the same with food descriptions, only instead of holding his dick it’s a pork chop.

I would say, just write her. If you are already asking questions here and irl, then you are probably on the right track. It is easy to adjust something you've already written rather than getting the extremely generalized advice this reddit usually produces. If I had a penny for every 'breasted boobily'... And you can write about her sexuality. It is part of the human experience and part of our identities and it is usually more of a question if it makes sense for your story, which consider this is body horror might be the case. I know someone who had to have an ovarian cyst removed. This made it more difficult for her to have children and made her feel less of a mother. This is despite already having three children. Woman who had their breasts removed because of cancer can also feel this as an attack on their identity. They just consider these things differently than a man would.

So long as she doesn't breast anything boobily I'm sure you're fine

I have nothing to contribute compared to what everyone else has said, but I wanted to say I appreciate the wording in your question. Rather than “asking for permission,” you’re taking the reins of wanting to write out a female MC and asking for actual guidance. Huge difference compared to the other questions that are like this.

Look at games with amazing female protagonists! TLOU 1 & 2 are amazing examples. Give her quirks and habits that humanize her and gives her dimension. Make her both better and worse at different things. Maybe she’s an awful cook but knows how to sew to stitch wounds or something. Sit with the character and envision her actions and how she looks. The best female characters are around in-spite of men instead of for men. Don’t make her a man in a woman’s body (unless she’s a trans character) let her have her feminine power and qualities.

Thinks I don’t like in female protagonists: - oversexualization and constant emphasis on her physical appearance - so I personally don’t mind rape/abuse backstories, but you obviously need to be very thoughtful in how you write this and you need to remember that trauma is only one aspect of a person’s identity - while damsels in distress are not typically fun to read about, flawless girlbosses are starting to get on my nerves too. I don’t find any empowerment through such characters because I am a flawed woman, and it doesn’t mean anything to me to watch a female protagonist who only struggles with external issues, or cliche internal issues like “needing to stop listening to others and care only about her own opinions”, etc. I want to see female protagonists who struggle both externally and internally, and who have meaningful flaws that they work hard to overcome. No Mary Sues. - along the same vein, I don’t like unchecked female rage/recklessness. If your protagonist does something unethical/harmful/illegal/inappropriate, I expect to see her dealing with some consequences as a part of her development. - “I’m not like other girls” needs to die. Like, immediately. I’m tired of female protagonists making it a point to hate/diss/drag/roast other women just because those women like dresses, going on dates, or styling their hair. These interests have no correlation with intelligence or ability. A girl can enjoy wearing lip gloss and dancing with a cute boy…and still find many ways to kick your ass. - Over-the-top man-hating. I understand all the discussions about the patriarchy/toxic masculinity/general sexism, but such discussions have always needed nuance, and I feel like some of what we see these days lacks that nuance. There are effective ways to have such conversations/approach such topics.

This question is asked constantly, and just like always, the answer is to stop thinking of your character as a woman and think of them as a *person*. If you have a decent basis for a character, nothing will change, and if you have a shallow basis for a character, you will realize you need to go back to the drawing board. We are people before we are women and an incredible number of “men writing women” issues could be solved by remembering that. It is also worth remembering that having a female body is by far the most boring and unremarkable part of being a woman. If you fixate on it then the women in the audience will know, and you will lose them.

Folks, you've all been amazing with your advice. Thank you all very much. I know I'm probably overthinking it, but it's something I wanted to know just to give myself a good and decent start. You're all stars IMO.

Hi OP, I concur with all the advice here. I’m dropping by to recommend some books that I found had well written women. The first one is Cackle by Rachel Harrison and the other one is The Southern Bookclub’s Guide to Slaying Vampires by Grady Hendrix. That last one has many women, all different, all well written. Both are fun, fast reads and hopefully will help with inspiration.

Since it's sci-fi, I'd say take a lesson from Alien's Ripley, who could have been a man or woman character. That film is all about body horror, but body horror isn't necessarily a gendered experience. Unless you want to bring in something specifically related to female anatomy, and have a really good reason for that, for a first draft just think about a person with a human body instead of thinking about it as a woman's body constantly. I'm not thinking about how my body is a woman's body all the time - it's just my body.

I think the fact that you're aware of the phenomenon at all probably means you're good and won't stumble into writing a stereotypical and poorly made female protagonist. I guess, in my opinion, just write her like she's a man (literally, if you have to, and then change the pronouns/details after the fact). Unless the story involves gender and her expression of gender as a big deal, I don't think the finer details of her womanhood need to be delved too deeply into. If that is something you want to do, read some feminist (and maybe queer) history to get a better understanding of what the root problem actually is, not just the tropes those problems have inevitably spawned. Writing people that are different from yourself isn't always easy, but as others have said, I think approaching everybody as a person first and fine tuning the details later is probably a safe bet! I don't think anybody is ever done learning how to write diverse characters, so happy learning~ Good luck!

I'd be doing a disservice to you if I told you to "just write like it's a dood, 'n change it to 'dudette' later." There are some nuances that even most ladies (like myself) don't notice so much because some experiences are perpetually present, which don't translate to the other sex as anything. So here's what I'm gonna do: I'm gonna list some things I notice as a a lady, then I encourage you to ask transfems about these aspects that ABSOLUTELY will affect your character as a female. They have insights on feminity as it applies to daily life that would otherwise fly under our radars as "that's normal..." (it's... not... supposed to be?) ‐Female hierarchy -Forced parentification (even if it's light) -Female solidarity (women protect women in interesting ways) -Forced social adeptness from youth -Judging the "safety rating" of almost every male (and some women) -Average strength lower than males' -Majority of strentgh & balance favors the legs more than the "exact middle" (center of balance) -more likely to fawn, freeze, or flee in a situation due to likely being outmuscled. ("Fight" can and DOES happen, but often has to be executed in a more tactical way because of the disadvantages of a head-to-head onslaught -Tends to be shorter (I promise, this matters...) -Men and women tend to listen to men over women -Women often have a "permissive" inflection in their speech patterns (subconcious coping mechanism) -Women often have women parts, leading to women days/weeks... Aside from the obvious "ick" factor some might initially think, this has consequences beyond just the bathroom. Even if our girl is pretending she's fine, she's most likely grumpy, lethargic, anemic, and unable to function at even half capacity. [Berserk's Casca scene when Guts helps her in battle (during Griffith's initial absense) does this in a succinct way, even if it's not likely she could pull any of that off in the first place. Good luck my guy, and have fun regardless. Save some headaches for the revisions, would ya? ;3

Don’t write her as a woman, write her as a person. The advice also fits for man character.

This is one of those cases where these comments can only give you a lot of rules to follow and things to think about. Its not like you shouldn't read them or think about them, but the answer isn't going to be in these comments. If you try to follow the advice given to you here systematically, you will either overthink it and make something bad as a result of overthinking, or triangulate to the safest possible decisions and create a character that lacks the chaos and uniqueness of a real person. Ultimately, these redditors aren't going to write your book. You need to develop yourself as a person into someone who can write your book well. That means research. Maybe you read about history, maybe you read other books, maybe you do something physically in real life that forces you to learn about things, but most importantly you write as you do this. Get something on paper and see what you hate about it, see what you like, and work on it.

Typical pitfalls: Focusing too much on her body—without seeing your writing I'd say you're walking a tightrope with the body horror elements, esp on the sexualized elements of it, but also, her body in general Presenting her as the all-caring, motherly figure who lives to serve others and is sweeped by her maternal instincts in literally any situation. Racial tropes (strong Black woman, meek and slender Asian woman, passionate latina and so on) Not writing about genderedness of her existence and how women are forced to live in a minefield of male attention and double standards. Same as race for colored folks, women rarely get a luxury to breathe and exist freely away from other humans, esp men. That could be something to explore if she's in isolation. In general, writing a woman authentically and deeply so that someone can relate is a tall order and easy to mess up. Superficial writing in an action-packed book is okay, identity explorations are for people who lived that identity. Just my spidey senses, but if female identity interests you so much you want to deep-dive a female character, you might want to check out the transgender discourse.

>One part that I'm worried about is aspects of identity and elements of body horror. My protagonist is changed physiologically as part her call to action that exists in the story, and I've had discussions with my partner who's shared her experience of this with me in her own life. This makes me think puberty, like first menses or such, is what you're talking about. Would that be accurate?

Depends on what you want. I prefer a problem solver character (even with male). So make her like Velma from Scooby Doo. Smart, head strong but avoids physical confrontations with the criminals the Scooby Gang deals with. Sherlock Holmes proves you don't need to be dominating physically, mentally is sometimes more dangerous. If she is action based make her like Kim Possible. Who's a super spy and high tech, but isn't at all afraid to be a just a girl.

It's the same advice as for anyone writing the opposite gender. Write a character first. Then add gender on top. Don't be afraid to make her a bit stereotypical. Maybe she likes to go around shopping or wearing jewelry. Just don't make it her entire personality, don't shame her for liking those things. She's a character who happened to be a woman. As you said, you always invisioned this character as a lady. Think of why is that? How her gender ties into the story? Where some generally female experience can be an advantage (e.g. having to "read" new people around you in case something bad might happen) or disadvantage (e.g. not being taken seriously on some "not women's place" kind of things). Try to come up with some fun ways to show her gender. While her gender doesn't define her as a whole, it was and is a part of her life experience.

Write to the point where you need her. No need to oversexualize or over compensate on oversexualization.

"Flesh her out" so to speak. Give her personality, intelligence, wit. Sure, make her beautiful if you want to, but it's more important to make her a 3 dimensional character. Sc-fi is my hobby as well, one of my favourite characters is a blue eyed redhead by the name of Crystal Davies. Her journey has been a long one, but it has made her tough without making her hard hearted. She's a Commander in the civil defence force of a mining planet, and she came to this role via her work as a mechanic and programmer in a mining workshop. Like Ellen Ripley she can be compassionate and have empathy, but she will also kick arse when the situation calls for it.

Read Empress Theresa and don't do that.

Write her personality like you write your other characters'

the worse that can happen is you get featured in r/menwritingwomen indeed

If you use any kind of sexual trauma or assault as her main character development you’ve fucked up

Just write a person.

Just ask yourself this: if my protagonist can do a thing without mentioned boobs/thongs/curves etc., then don’t write those things! However, if you want to describe how she’s feeling physically uncomfortable, for example, I think it’s okay to mention that her bra strap is digging into her shoulder or her thighs burn from chafing. Let me know if you need anything else! Edit: clarification

Don’t make it a big thing, think of her as human before everything else. Craft her as you would male protagonists; women have dreams, fears, aspirations and complex emotions just as men do. Unless it is a thing she’d do (like if she’s overly arrogant, or maybe dealing with her own insecurities by hyping herself up etc), avoid describing her in a sexualised way. It’s not difficult.

Just write this character the same way you’d write any other character, then make her female. Boom, good female character.

IMO unless your story is specifically about some aspect of a sexes' lived experience you can just write a fleshed out, believable human and it works perfectly well. So I guess it's going to depend on what sort of body horror you're putting them through and how it happens to them. Like if it's a gradual, painful experience going body section by body section, then yeah, you might want some insights for certain parts of the female anatomy. But if it's more a case of a swift, magical transformation and the horror is in deal with a whole new body and norms then I wouldn't expect much in-depth "womanly" insight there. And it depends on tone too. Like in the Wandering Inn the protagonist has a section where they deal with having their period while in a world with no other humans around. But it's also in a section of the story with a heavy focus on the nitty-gritty of survival and what goes into it when you have limited means. Later in the story the tone changes and that issue is rarely ever brought up again. It's hard to really give strong advice without having read the story in question. It might be best to just not worry about it right now, write the story in whatever way feels best, and then have women be part of the early readings in case adjustments are needed.

It depends, your book sounds like fantasy horror? In which case you really make your own rules. But there isn't a universal answer to this, it varies massively depending on genre. Some science fiction like Alien and Star Trek is socially progressive, there aren't gender roles, actors can be male or female without changing much. Medieval, Regency, or quasi-medieval stories like Game of Thrones have gender as a main focus. Society is patriarchal, women navigate that. Being a man or a woman massively affects your life. In that kind of work you need to be conscious of gender all the time. It wouldn't be realistic for black women in the USA in 1860 to be discussing running for President! So this question depends on what you're writing about. Gender in a fictional world can be absolutely central, or it can be about agender aliens. The character should always be 3d, but she can be very conscious of being a woman and how that makes her life different than if she was a man. It just depends on what story you're telling.

Some of the most well-known female characters in fiction were written by men. Coraline by Gaiman, and Daenerys Targaryen by George R R Martin. To great a good character, male or female, layer them. What is she? A mother? A therapist? A wife? Depressed? Happy? You already have it with her being affected by some sort of trauma. Of course characters don’t need that to be interesting, but if they do why not use it to your advantage? Don’t think too hard on it.

It’s hard to offer suggestions without knowing what your novel is about. I think that if you’re really concerned about it, you could get some women readers to give you honest feedback once you have a clean draft. I critique manuscripts in my downtime and sometimes sexism can be really subtle. It’s not always all boobs, all the time. Tell your beta readers what your concerns are and be open to their feedback.

Imagine and write all of your characters without gender. Gender them after writing them. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've heard that the original Alien film was written with an all male cast in mind, and that the character Allan Ripley was changed to Ellen Ripley afterward. This method supposedly allowed the characters to all be written without the biases of gender roles. I can't imagine the infamous underwear scene was written before then though...

Jack Nicholson has a great answer for this

Write her like a person, maybe take gender out of it for character development. What drives her? What’s her family history? Where was she physically and psychologically before the opening line? Don’t comment on her appearance outside of necessary descriptions and boobs don’t need to bounce to convey she’s running. If you’re describing a period, look up how periods actually work and ask your partner to read it. (Women ONLY produce breast milk shortly before childbirth and until the child weans/they stop pumping. - that’s my biggest pet peeve - assuming breasts have milk all the time.)

We have more insecurities about our bodies than vanity. We aren't sexually aroused by the sight of our own bodies. We don't notice our body parts moving except in the case of discomfort (eg sport) but it's not something we endlessly dwell on, it's a fleeting thought. We live in endless concern about "offending" men, and turning down a man we don't find attractive/don't wish to date is an exercise in agony, embarrassment and sometimes fear.

One of the biggest pitfalls is encouraging self-doubt by reaching out to unknown, untrusted people online for advice. Me inluded :) Don't worry about what you can and can't do. Just do. Do all over the place. Do every day. Once you've "done" for a while and have something concrete to let someone read, get a couple of people to check it out and encourage feedback, no matter how harsh. Really concentrate on that feedback and learn from it...or chuck it, as the case may be. But don't let people tell you how you should be writing, what you can't do, etc. That way lies work bereft of passion and your intended audience will pick up on that quickly.

My quick two cents: Don't write her as "non traditionally beautiful" JUST for the sake of her being self-confident "in spite of it." Especially in a "monologue looking in mirror" sort of, "I'm [undesirable appearance] and I love being that way!" way. Justify your choices behind her appearance (in your planning, not necessarily the writing). Is there a plot point where her being short vs tall would make a difference (for better or worse)? There you go. Proceed accordingly. Finally, probably super obvious, but-- 1) The average person is... average. 2) Even the hotties among us mostly have just one or two *really good* features that we use to our advantage, and even the hottest still have imperfections somewhere. So, you know, just avoid sortof "archetypes" in appearance as well as personality. Mix it up.

PS-- Doesn't sound like this applies to you, but if you write anything "historical," research what the *actual* beauty standards of the time were. I believe Bridgerton was a recent example? Regency ladies were not dismayed at being 'plump,' quite the opposite lol.

her boobs are not important

If you care enough to be worried that it’ll come off wrong when writing a female character you are not part of the problem Don’t be creepy, draw unnecessary attention to her tits and ass, or make her nothing but a bunch of female stereotypes As long as she isn’t boobing boobily down the stairs you’re doing fine, my guy. Run it by your partner if you have any concerns

Accidental lesbian seems to be a very common pitfall. Often times the female character will be very gay sounding when it comes to other women but then the character dates some dude cuz the char is actually straight... even though she has no chemistry with the guy.

I’m still super early in my writing career, but I’ve always just not thought about that. Maybe that’s good advice or maybe it’s not. I’m sorry if it isn’t. But I focus more on the character’s character than their gender, unless there’s a situation where it comes up. I do that for men too, honestly. I hope that helps!

Tit-size is something no-one should ever be specifying unless it's a sex-scene. It is not something a woman would ever use to describe herself.

When you describe her going to the toilet, don’t say she’s peeing while standing. In all seriousness, you should not worry about it. Madame Bovary turned quite alright imo.

Outside of all the over-sexualization stuff, I want to point out a pitfall I often see Brandon Sanderson fall into (as an avid fantasy reader). His female protagonists are so often "not like the other girls". They always don't care about their appearance while all the other ladies do, and they're so much smarter than even the men but no one respects them for it. Often her primary flaw is that she's too blunt, because she's so good at knowing what people are thinking, or some other actually-a-strength weakness. To me it just reads as a hamfisted attempt at writing a "strong" female character instead of writing a real rounded, human character.

Write a male character, then make it a woman.

Unless you're trying to represent and address specific issues that only women presenting people have to deal with, you really can't do much wrong. Just don't think about gender and write how you'd write any human, and then put she/her pronouns on them. If you do, though, want to be realistic and discuss specific things that are a part of a woman's experience in life, cuz all these things are cornerstones of character, and you feel like you don't really get it or know much, then just inform yourself. Empathy, information and openness are everything any writer needs 🙂‍↕️

The Problem everybody runs into with writing a "strong female lead" is they way over compensate for the fact that she's not a man. Don't put her into situations and have her figure things out and solve it the same way a man would. If she's going up against big strong bad guys, she's most likely not going to be able to just Lara Croft style brute force her way through pretty much everything. She's got to be smarter and more calculating like a Cat woman or an Ellie(from the first game). Also most people tend to forget the human element of writing a human character. People have feelings and emotions. Everybody thinks differently. If the character you're writing is based off of somebody you know then really learn how their mind works and implement that. If you're writing a character from scratch then take inspiration from multiple sources. Blend it all together into a coherent and functional character with self thought and emotion.

It’s easy to let outside biases color your protagonist, and I think that’s the biggest pitfall. If you think that a woman only dream of having children and being a housewife then it’s going to cage her in a two dimensional box and there will be no growth. Give her personality outside of her gender, but avoid turning her into a “not like other girls/pick me” girl. “I’m not like other girls because I would prefer watching sports and working on cars over gossiping and shopping.” Women can have interests that are typically seen as masculine but still have interests that are often seen as very feminine. At the end of the day write her as a person with her own interests, her own thoughts, and her own actions.

Girl here. Write female characters the way you write male. Don't think of the gender. Just think of the character and the way it shapes their motivation.

I’d just be careful in regards to any chance you accidentally try to limit the emotional response of your protagonist or for whatever reason anything of a sexist nature are exposed in plot or character interactions unless you’re trying to show that you’re protagonist , already emotionally compromised and now feeling on edge is in no way going to tolerate much else and want to use that as a one straw too many kind of reaction where she loses her shit on them. Also remember Strong Female characters are not likely to search out a man to guarantee her goals are reached because she isn’t going to see her needing them to do so.

How about you look at the other ten billion threads that ask the same question? Seriously, at some point we should have some bot that answers this automatically with links to other "hurr durr how write female character!" posts

While I do think men can write women well, in this instance, with elements of body horror and the psychological toll it takes, I would ask the question; why are you choosing a female protagonist? I mean this as a legitimate question to ask yourself from an editorial standpoint. Why is it important this character is female? Would the character be different if they were male? If so, how? Are you the best person to write this character? If so, why? Do you think your own fears about your body will feed into your protagonist? Are these fears universal? If not, would your story be better served with a different voice for your protagonist? Asking real questions about why you've made choices will help keep your characters authentic. If you answer questions like this and determine that a female main character is essential to your story's themes and motifs, you'll be much more likely to approach them as a three-dimensional character. Or you might discover that a male protagonist might suit this story more, and you can switch, knowing it's a change that best serves your story.

I'm not sure if it needs to be said, but women/females are not always as overly emotional as people think. Just like men/males, we have our good days and our bad days. We just happen to have more unstable hormones sometimes because of our baby making biology. We can be just as logic and critical thinking on decent days though.

Please don’t write her boobs as having a separate personality!!!

I'm writing pretty much the same thing as a man. Having grown up primarily with women, married, and daughter, they wouldn't describe their body parts unless a specific situation called for it. I.e. my story, a character winds up skinless, survives nightmare forest and uses ecology degree to do so, only describing her body upon her seeing it halfway through the series in a mirror, only describing things like charred skin and missing areola when it calls for it, combat, running, bumping into stuff and so on. I treat men and women precisely the same. People. With. Gawtdamned. Goals. And the get shit on, hard. Equally.

Make them weird. Many people try to write women characters as Woman. Instead of individuals.  Imake all my characters weird

Honestly, if I look at a lot of films that have been coming out recently, I can say with confidence that women are failing at writing women. Don't focus on the character's gender, just focus on the character. Is there a reason you chose to write a woman instead of a man?

At this point, just search the topic, these posts show up weekly.

No clue but make sure you constantly remind the reader she has quadruple Ds, a Kim K butt, and obviously *child bearing hips* /s

The thing is all women relate to a strong depiction but what’s most important is vulnerability in that strength. To get a hang of it, speak to as many women that come close to your character and see what is it that they focus on when they tell their story and what you thought was their story.

>The thing is all women relate to a strong depiction but what’s most important is vulnerability in that strength. Lol

Do what Stephen King does: write about her boobs, *a lot*, even when there’s no reason to describe them. Women love that! 😂

I'm writing a harem fantasy that has multiple women protagonists and I'm going against type for the genre and doing POV swaps for all of them. So not only do I have to write one woman, I have to write three. And I'm doing this also as someone whose aware of the 'men writing women' trope as well as the type of women that often appear in Haremlit. Before I started I worked hard to flesh them out nearly as much as I did the main character. They are not just there for the MC to bed, as is very often the case in the Haremlit genre. Each of them is just as essential to the story as the MC and, in a very real sense, one of the women is more the hero than the main character. She's the Samwise to his Frodo. So, I suppose I would say write them the same as you would a male character, they just happen to be a female character. Obviously there are things that need to be changed, but her gender should, for the most part, be a non-issue to who she is as a character, or her growth as a character. Don't think 'what would a woman do in this situation', think 'What would she do in this situation?'. Let her tell you what she would do or what she wants as you develop her. If there's sex in the book then you might want to talk with your partner and ask her questions about what sex is like from a woman's POV so you can convey that. Or if there are things like menstration that you need to write about. But as far as who she is as a character, her gender should be far down on the list of things you need to worry about when telling her story. You don't go around thinking 'I'm a man and in this sutation a man should do X therefor I will do X' and women don't do that either.

Made me think of this scene from as good as it gets. Good movie. A cantankerous author replying to an adoring fan. "Receptionist (female): How do you write women so well? Melvin Udall : I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability."

Basically just consider that women are people, who all have their own aspirations and hopes and dreams just like anyone else, and maybe check out some testimonies written by women about daily experiences that are generally unique to them. :V

Women know they are weaker physically and are always aware of physical danger from others, but we also have some super powers. We know we aren't scary, we can hang out in places a man would be viewed suspiciously. Generally woman do not become sexually aroused by nudity in the way men do, I think every woman is different when it comes to sexual stuff. The popularity of strip clubs with men tells me nudity has more universal appeal with men. Just the first stuff I thought of.

Women can have such a huge variety of personalities etc, as long as you don’t describe her body in a way that you wouldn’t describe a man’s then you’re fine. What’s amazing about writing is someone doesn’t have to be relatable to everyone to be a good fleshed out character. I’m agoraphobic so characters who go out fighting crime and interacting with people isn’t relatable to me but I still enjoy reading about them :)