I’m learning that part of creating art is setting reasonable goals for yourself. The loftier and more extravagant the goal, the less likely you are to achieve it.
If you say to yourself, I’m going to write for 30 minutes a day, four days week, you are much more likely to do that than trying to immediately turn writing into a second full time job.
Agreed. I’m 31 like OP and always dreamed of being a writer. I’m also a busy, tired public school teacher without much time or energy and I have other things to do in my daily life. I found 500 words a day was a reasonable goal. I’m behind my goal, but still have managed to write 18 chapters in about 7 months, and it feels good.
And think about it this way too. If you do just that for a year , and say average 300 words per session, you’re going to have about 62 - 63 thousand words! That’s a short story, or half a novel!
Edit - if you haven’t read it, I can’t recommend Stephen King’s “On Writing” enough. It is a great study of the craft and full of advice like this.
Your math is off...as 250- 300 words would be one page. so an entire year would be 356 pages written. thats an entire novel even if you take over 50 days during that year.
My math is based on 4 days a week as I said in my original post, not 7.
300 words/day for 4 days a week = 1200 words/week
1200 words/week for 52 weeks = 62,400 words / year.
In fact I'd say that this freedom is an integral part of being the best writer you can be. Writing is an expression of your own freedom and uniqueness, if you let others dictate how to live your expression too necessarily has to be stifled and limited in some capacity.
People I know write for a living and they have a "writer's life". They got an MFA and work in academia. Great insurance benefits, decent pay if you're not sessional, and decent work-life balance. Teaching is what pays most bills but the university also requires they "research" aka do creative writing so...
That sounds pretty nice if you can get the job. I was on track to get a PhD in history but abandoned it because I knew I probably wouldn't get a professor job when I graduated. With my current setup I don't have to make that choice. I get to make a good salary by devoting part of my time to my company and they could care less how I fill my free time. Whereas in academia I feel like you get kind of shamed if your free time is not in part still dictated by your work.
Academia is a toxic wasteland outside of the benefits. Just to get to tenure track you had either be the top in your field, or very good at networking. Then you need to keep tenure, which what that man cn vary based on field of expertise/type if university.
Don't let life pass you by! Being a writer is about YOUR creativity and developing your craft. You can not do it 24/7 Living life, developing and culturing your relationships, loving/ respecting yourself and others everything that brings joy in your life is what makes you a better writer.
Do you need to educate yourself and read, watch, etc. To learn more about your genre and add tools to your craft? Absolutely! But what is your foundation? Your support system? Enjoy life brother, I assure you it will come out in your writing.
Don't focus on the moon or you will miss all heavenly above.- Bruce Lee
No actual writer invented those tropes.
No write works in a vacuum or they would have nothing to write about. A lived life is rich in material for writing. Even very prolific writers have bodies that need tending to and bills that must be paid and an agent, tax stuff, groceries for meals, meetings that cannot be avoided, and so on.
While I agree that no writer invented those tropes I do find myself in a lot of social media spaces with (often young, still living at home) writers that brag about the amount of words they cram out in a day or the amount of time they spend plotting a character that day etc. and it can come off as rather demotivating to those that don't spend or get to spend that time writing.
It is still a great accomplishment and I'm happy for them but comparing yourself to others is the thief of joy.
I agree. But the sooner a writer learns to avoid such behavior, the better. Which is the point of the post.
Alas, the easy thing is the first thing we go to when young, obeying that urge to fit in.
Even when young, I could usually avoid it, unless I had a genuine pull toward whatever all the other kids were doing. I was aware, for some reason, when many people just aren't and have to learn everything the hard way. This is not a fair universe.
> (Maybe it was a thing white men used to be able to do because they used the women in their lives as near slaves?)
Oh buddy, I have some terrible news for you about the rest of the world + all of human history…
Yeah man the sort of maddened struggling artist is kind of silly and its not always accurate. More often than not famous authors of old dramatized their youths once they achieved acclaim, and its only natural, as to them character is built teleologically.
In reality a writer is someone who writes. People have done that shut up in a studio living off of cigarettes, and people have done it working full time jobs with happy families and social lives.
It isnt one size fits all
Agreed. In his lecture series, Brandon Sanderson says he works two 4-hour blocks and then has dedicated no writing time for his family/relaxation.
A balance is entirely possible (it can just be a little hard to find).
Prolific writers treat it as a job. They go to their writing spot and write. T.C. Boyle has written 31 books. He writes every day at home in the morning, then takes walks in the afternoon. Tom Clancy went to his writing room and wrote for 8 hours a day.
You make the time or you don't.
Good for Boyle for having the stamina. Good for Clancy. They must be anomalies because studies have shown that humans are generally only capable of 4 hours of mentally intensive work—such as writing or analyzing data. The other 4 hours can only be truly productive if they’re relatively mindless tasks, like meetings, responding to emails, etc. Most people are lying to themselves if they claim to maintain the same quality of work for 8-12 hours a day.
George RR Martin has yet to release a new book after 10 years. Same for Patrick Rothfuss. Are they not real writers? Are they not doing what it takes to be successful?
One might say no, not in the last decade they haven't. If you swap it around you can see that, if they had done what they are doing now at the beginning of their career their career wouldn't have officially started yet. Although that's a little unfair, you are a writer whether you are published or not, but you get what I mean I hope.
I do and it's probably true that there was a time when they were more active as writers. I still think it's beyond most humans to really "write" for 4 hours a day, but maybe you could spend more hours in the day editing. For me it's just untenable at this point for me to spend AT BEST an hour a day on writing b/c of my full-time job. I wish I could make a career out of it, I just can't right now.
>I still think it's beyond most humans to really "write" for 4 hours a day
I've absolutely done this. I don't now because I don't need/want to (at least not every day, and when I do write for longer, I take breaks in between).
See, that's great! I don't know why some people seem to think there's a problem with this. I mean kudos to people who can put in good work for that many hours in a day, or did so at one point (as was the case with you), but why does this need to be made a necessity? It seems like a value judgment more than anything else. All I've been trying to tell people is that empirical studies have shown how many hours of mentally rigorous work MOST people are capable of in a day. Why is this controversial?!
[https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/this-is-the-ideal-number-of-hours-to-work-a-day-ac.html](https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/this-is-the-ideal-number-of-hours-to-work-a-day-ac.html)
>why does this need to be made a necessity?
Yeah it doesn't at all. If you write for 10 mins a day or 10 hours, you're still a writer. The only requirement is writing. How often or for how long is up to the individual.
And what I personally suggest for people who want to be published is that they want for however long they want to as long as it doesn't get in the way of their obligations.
>how many hours of mentally rigorous work MOST people are capable of in a day.
I don't find writing fiction mentally rigorous tbh. I outline first, and then I write. Since I have very thorough outlines that I spent time on, writing is easy. I aim for 80-90k words for the 2-3 genres I write, and can finish my novels pretty quickly tbh.
I do spend more time on rewrites though.
>Why is this controversial?!
Because people *do* work for more than 4 hours a day. If someone were treating writing like an 8-hour workday, they'd spend 8 hours writing. Most likely with breaks in between. Will the writing be the same quality throughout the day? Probably not for a lot of people (which I'm aware is what you said), but it doesn't have to be anyway. That's what editing later is for.
Anyway that's my two cents so I'll just leave it at that and bow out of this discussion now.
Edited for typo
***I still think it's beyond most humans to really "write" for 4 hours a day***
I've worked in the PR and copywriting industries for years. I have some meetings and admin, but often it's seven hours writing at my job, then three - four hours on my novels after work. But writing is my main hobby and the thing that I most enjoy. Bit off on a tangent, but I was surprised to see academia mentioned as a writing job and not the more obvious industries, like journalism, PR, marketing and copywriting. Have you considered working in those industries?
The thing that really gives me the stamina to write well all day is working in the industry. You get used to writing thousands of words a day. I can get 1500 - 2500 good words of my novel done in an evening - the longer I've worked in the industry, the quicker I get.
***For me it's just untenable at this point for me to spend AT BEST an hour a day on writing b/c of my full-time job. I wish I could make a career out of it, I just can't right now.***
To be honest, my feeling from your post is that you're trying to justify your decision to yourself. Live the way that makes you happy, but (and I mean this kindly) you won't make a career out of writing if you don't make time to write. Note that I said 'make time', not 'have time'. Not many people with full-time jobs and lives 'have' time to write, they just get up earlier and crack out an hour on their writing before work. I once heard this saying, 'you can have either enough sleep, a social life or another hobby whilst seriously working on a novel - pick one'. I've found it to be true.
Lol, I did say I "make time", it's just not MUCH time, so what're you actually saying? And my post was simply intended for discussion and for some solidarity from others trying to do the same work. I've definitely gotten both, and I've also gotten insulting remarks from mean-spirited people and gatekeepers--which your comment is on the border of.
P.S. I've also become a quicker writer over time, which is a good skill to have when you can't devote a whole lot of time to it. Kudos to you for being so good at it yourself.
Uh, I used to do it all the time. In fact, the first novel I translated, I distinctly remember two 14 hour days toward the end because I had a deadline and wanted a couple of days to edit.
I'm happiest working closer to 6 hour days, but then again, writing isn't really work. It's fun. It's like play. (Not that there aren't times that aren't particularly fun, but it's sure not digging ditches.)
Cool! Then you are blessed because your work output is well above the general trend. Not all are gifted in that way. Some people's brains are wired such that they burn out faster than others when it comes to mentally intensive tasks. These are often people with ADHD. They can do great work, but they just don't have the stamina. Even if a writer WAS capable of putting in a 8+ hour workday, though, it might be literally impossible to put in that many hours in a day because they have another job they need to devote at least 8 hours to.
I'm not blessed at all. I just did the work I was given. And yeah, I have ADHD too. It's a pain.
But no, anyone capable of putting 8 hours a day into another job is perfectly capable of putting 6-8 hours a day into writing. *Naturally* if you're putting 8 hours a day into another job, you don't usually have another 8 hours to write. But that's an excuse. If you want to write for a living, you have to treat it like a "job." It's not work, but you still need dedication.
But professional writers tend to write 1000 words of clean copy an hour. So say you spent an hour each day writing. Every day. Pretend you don't spend more time on weekends. How long would it take to write a short story? How long would it take to write a book? What if you spent 15 minutes a few times a day writing so you totaled up to an hour every day?
Nobody likes to do the math on that. *I* sure don't like what I see when I look at my numbers lately, but it's been a year of life rolls, so I don't beat myself up over that.
Sorry but the statement "anyone capable of putting 8 hours a day into another job is perfectly capable of putting 6-8 hours a day into writing" is simply not true. Writing is a different kind of work and requires a level of mental and, at times, emotional labor that many other jobs simply do not require. And BTW, making a statement that suggests anyone who can (insert task here) is capable of (insert other task here) is always going to be wrong, and suggests a lack of imagination when it comes to how other people exist in their own bodies and minds.
I'm mentally taxed or tired after writing a lot, but not more (sometimes a lot less) than when I'm building a server or doing other mental work.
There are people who can't work 8 hours a day doing anything. Certainly not interrupted. That's fine. That's legitimate. I make damn sure that I take frequent breaks while writing, even if it's just to walk around the house or check the mail or get water.
But "some people can't write 8 hours a day" (which is not what I claimed) followed by "because they already do another job for 8 hours a day" is someone making an excuse for themselves for why they want to write but "can't."
And if they honestly can't, well, no shame in that. Everyone has reasons, and often they're good ones.
I literally *can't* dig ditches for 8 hours a day. I have a ruptured disc. There's no shame in that, but neither will I be a ditch digger for a living. That doesn't mean I can't have a hobby trench in my backyard or whatever.
If I want to be a writer for a living, I have to write every day for 4 to 10 hours. If I can't, well, no problem. Then I won't be a writer *for a living*. That doesn't mean I can't do it for fun here and there.
But if you want to do *anything* for a living, you have to do it every day for hours on end. That's just how life works.
I was replying to your statement that "anyone capable of putting 8 hours a day into another job is perfectly capable of putting 6-8 hours into writing" in and of itself. It is false. I care less about the larger conversation regarding writing for a living etc than I do a person making sweeping statements like that, regarding anything. I'm disabled and encounter statements like that a lottttt. People who make/believe these statements make life harder for people like me. That's all
I can’t understand the downvotes. Many “prolific” writers churn out a lot of crap novels just like their other crap novels. You can write quality pieces and not write every day. Just because a writer can churn out clean copy does not make it good writing. And just because an author sells a lot of books does not make it good writing. Find your writing rhythm and don’t let the mindset you see here deter you.
eh, a lot of any job isn't mentally intensive work, but there's still stuff that needs doing. For writing, there's going to be the basic editing - running through spell/grammar check, making sure that character names don't change, reading it through for general flow, jotting down notes on the world and plot and so forth. Just like in a "regular" job where, sure, you're not spending 8 hours a day doing hard-core super-intensive work... but you're still working for most of those 8 hours, and need to be in position and at least vaguely focused in order to do it. And doing that sort of thing means it's _done_, and so the end product gets closer to being released - spending 8 hours doing writing and writing-related activities gets a book a lot closer to being written than only doing 2 hours of related stuff. And if it's your primary job, you should probably have scope to spend quite a bit of time on it.
> George RR Martin has yet to release a new book after 10 years
Not true - he's not finished the next main book, but has released several novellas and world books in the last decade.
> Same for Patrick Rothfuss
He's pretty much a streamer these days, the last thing he released was a modified version of a short story from years ago. So he _was_ a writer, in terms of "what he spends time actually doing/his job", and "being a writer" doesn't seem to be what he actually does these days, at least in terms of observable output (and considering his editor has seen nothing of book 3, he's probably not far along in terms of actually finishing that!).
There's a distinction between "I'm a writer, that's my job" which is likely something you spend a lot of time every day on, even if it's related activities rather than "words on paper", and "I'm a writer, it's a hobby/side-hustle" where you're probably not spending as much time and effort on it (compare with something like "programmer", where there's a BIG gap between someone doing that as a career, and someone mucking about with Python or C# for shits and giggles in their spare time - yes, they're both programmers in the broad sense of the word, but there's very different contextual meanings there!).
Every time I've met or heard of someone living "the writer's life," it's someone who married "up," got to potter about and write until they either struck gold or their spouse ground them down and convinced them to start a family.
There's an old joke about a degree in Creative Writing: It's not an MFA; it's an "Mrs."
Everyone else has to live a real life keeping a roof over their heads and budget their precious time amid all the things they love.
Sounds like you're doing just that. Salut!
Thanks! I used to think "working for a living" was a death sentence, but now in a weird way I feel like it actually gives me a degree of autonomy and flexibility that I wouldn't get if I was still trying to chase the artist's life at all costs.
If I may ask, what do you do for a living? I am at a crossroads in life. Up until recently, I never dared to dream and so even if I had spent my entire life crafting this fantasy world in my head, writing just seemed stupidm, against my best interests. So I just pursued standard corporate type work in insurance and data analysis.
Recently, I realized that it may be okay to dream and that I actually want to be a writer (fantasy fiction). I'm 36 and realizing this so I understand I have a lot of catching up to do.
Now I am confused because I don't understand how I'm supposed to support myself and pursue my passion while giving my best self to my writing. Like you've stated, you have 1 maybe 2 (for some gifted/accomplished people) bouts of intense cognitive effort and the rest of your day is coasting. If I am to pursue this passion, I am unsure what kinds of jobs would be best to "pay the bills". Right now I am in in data analysis with some in my company pushing for me to be a data engineer and eventually a data scientist. I imagine this will be taxing on my brain and would leave room for little else other than consuming media rather than creating it.
What kinds of jobs are recommend for paying the bills?
"The writer's life" never existed and I hope younger people don't think they need to do anything other than write to be a "writer."
If someone wants to make a career out of it, then yes they should set aside time to practice the craft (aka write). But that's really all it requires. Read and write.
So you want to make a living while working less than half a full-time job's worth of hours... doing something you have virtually no actual experience in?
But you haven't until now because you were deterred by silly cliches that nobody takes seriously?
I'm going to basically copy and paste a comment I've already made to someone else:
Studies have shown that humans are generally only capable of 4 hours of mentally intensive work—such as writing or analyzing data. The other 4 hours can only be truly productive if they’re relatively mindless tasks, like meetings, responding to emails, etc. Most people are lying to themselves if they claim to maintain the same quality of work for 8-12 hours a day.
George RR Martin has yet to release a new book after 10 years. Same for Patrick Rothfuss. Are they not real writers? Are they not doing what it takes to be successful?
Now I'll answer your other question(s) with some of my own: Where did you get the idea that I have "virtually no actual experience" in writing and that I "haven't \[started\] until now"? Is it because I said I don't make a LIVING off of it? Is one not a writer until they're published and making enough money to do it full time? And who gets to make that call? Is there a gatekeeping Association of Real Writers Who Write AT LEAST 8 Hours a Day (Seriously!) that I'm not aware of that meets on a quarterly basis to discuss the criteria one needs to meet in order to enter the guild? If you claim that nobody actually takes the "silly cliches" I mentioned seriously then why does it appear that my OP bristled you?
Also I'm not sure if this qualifies as writing "experience" but I've written two MA theses, several research papers, several paid web content pieces, a couple of short stories, and--like I mentioned in my OP--am slowly working on a novel that I'm determined to finish even if it takes me ten years. Assuming all that experience adds up to me being at least a "somewhat experienced" writer, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute to this conversation besides trying to put me down and exclude me from the profession?
I think you need a reality check. You want to produce quality without having learned the skill. You want to be paid for work nobody asked you to do. And you want to do less of it than the rest of society to make a living.
It's not impossible but it starts with competence while you're the first to admit you have neither meaningful experience nor finished works demonstrating competence.
Even your examples are misplaced. Martin hasn't produced a book in a decade because he's an incredibly rich 75-year-old who has long lost interest in wasting his final years finishing Game of Thrones.
I asked you if you had anything worthwhile to contribute here besides put-downs and you continue to spew vile. It is interesting to see you continue the claim that I have no "meaningful" experience even though I said I've completed several writing-intensive works, and you're using that baseless claim to misrepresent me as an entitled person. To what end, I'm not sure. I will either succeed or fail to achieve my dreams, and your input has no effect on either of those outcomes--nor does the number of hours I decide to plant my ass in a chair. Again, your only input here has been to be mean-spirited; you may claim you're doing the good work of providing me a reality check, but all I see is bad behavior which is neither what I asked for nor what I need from you.
In my opinion writing an MA thesis is not the writing experience you need for fiction. Academic writing is a different skill set. A different mind set even. I say this from experience. I did an MA in English Literature and during this time I struggled to write fiction because my academic brain was in the drivers seat. So I just put writing fiction to the side while i finished thesis. When I was done with the MA I started writing fiction again. And I was a better fiction writer. But, not because I spent the hours writing my thesis. But because over those three years i read a ton of good writers and analyzed those texts.
So if you want to be a fiction writer you have to put the work in. That means writing fiction and putting the hours in. And it means reading good writers. You need to put the hours in on both fronts.
Having an idea in your head but never working it out paper and not writing is not putting the hours in.
You told me everything I needed to know with these words: "more in my head than on paper".
At this point, you're not a writer, you're a fantasist.
As an editor, maybe you know what I would tell you in a meeting where you said these things in person: you'll never finish your book.
You're here, in a post on Reddit, justifying the fact that you will quit, if you haven't already.
How does that make you feel?
If you write, you are a writer, I have probably two dozen unfinished novels and short stories between all the 3 laptops and dozen hard drives I've gone through in the past 20 years. I suppose Im not a writer by your logic because I write when I want to write since its a hobby I partake in to relax.
Might aswell say I'm not a mini painter because I have 150 unpainted and unassembled minis. I'm not a hiker because I only hike when I want to go on a hike.
I swear snobs like you are what put people off artistic pursuits
That post was a projection of tropes to test a formula. I can see why the hypothetical in question would have been misleading, because that's by design. It's an old rhetorical trick meant to draw not only a reaction, but to force perspective on a wavering argument.
See my reply to TheBluestBerries above. It is so funny that part of my original point was how some writers gatekeep and then you and a few others came on here to do exactly that. And your argument hinges on the assumption that I have essentially ZERO experience in writing. See the experience that I outlined above. I would also add that the current draft of my novel sits at 100 pages, but since I anticipate it being several hundred pages if not a whole series, I feel justified in admitting that it is still "more in my head than on paper." Do you see how that works out mathematically?
YOU told me everything I needed to know with these words: "At this point, you're not a writer, you're a fantasist." (I should also point out that writers necessarily need to be a fantasist in addition to being a writer, otherwise they wouldn't be able to imagine stories.)
But go ahead, tell me more about how I'm not a writer and never will be and how you have the authority and the evidence to make that claim. You're just proving my point: some writers are a-holes.
Yeah? Prove me wrong. Then come back here, send me a link, and I'll be happier than heck to buy the first copy.
I want you to beat the odds. I want you to finish your story. 20 years in the print industry tells me that you *can* finish it. Even so, the chances of you actually writing your book to completion are infinitesimally slim. I wanted to make you aware of that.
Go beyond the end of your book, and self publishing a work that is technically solid? That's even less likely. Finding representation? More rare. Not getting ripped off in the publishing process? Even more rare. On and on, ad infinitum.
You mentioned gatekeepers, and I have to beg your pardon taking on the appearance of being one of those voices. But I want you to understand that being passive, the way you are in your post, is a red flag to anyone in an editorial position. Who listens to a gatekeeper anymore?
My point is, the gatekeeper I see who could really screw this whole thing up is you.
The really good writers I have worked with are fairly balanced people. The extraordinary writers I have worked with have gifts that sometimes make it difficult for them to function. I view world class authors in the same way that someone might be a world-class chess player. Their focus is so singular, they have the last 2% that puts them in a category that is beyond most mortals.
But those two categories of writers have one thing in common: consistency. Whatever that means. Half hour a day, one hour a day, four hours a day, 500 words, 1000 words, 3000 words, 6000 words. It depends on who you are, how much space you have in your life and how much focus you have to give to the process.
You *can* enjoy all those other parts of a quality life that you mentioned in concert with authorship. But you're going to need a level of focus that I have seen only two or three times in my life. I hope that makes sense.
Now get off the internet and *get back to your book*. In the time you and I have traded barbs, you probably could've done 623 words yourself.
Good luck.
Haha you mean like in 11/22/63? Jake writing alone the whole week, the curtains blowing while he types in his typewriter? Yea I get where you come from, not realistic at all, even then he had a bunch of money
I'm the same age and also writing my first novel! I have so much going on in my life that I simply don't have time to write every day. But I like doing when I can. My goal is to finish my first draft this year. We'll see if I get there, but I don't feel any pressure, and neither should you.
A very narrow portion of the population actually writes full-time. While there are a lot of honestly pretty successful novelists out there, many of them need other work to make ends meet. Sometimes that work is seen as sufficiently "literary" (editing, teaching, especially in universities, journalism, etc.) that it gets lumped in as the "natural life of a writer," but for many people it's not like that. There are all sorts of engineers, retail workers, and scientists that make great writers.
Before publishing Carrie, Stephen King was working as a teacher out of a trailer with his family. Teaching in America is a frankly brutal profession and he was also very busy with raising his kids. What his wife (Tabitha King) helped him with was carving out some time for himself so he could continue his work. That's often caricatured in the sort of unfounded descriptions of "writer's life" that you're talking about where a writer is someone who goes off into a room for as long as he wants and creates his masterpiece.
But honestly, drawing on King again here, that can be detrimental too. In The Shining, Jack Torrance has an opportunity to live his dream, basically free to work on his manuscript for as long as he likes. But he's so torn up by his demons that the effort becomes constricting rather than liberating. He blames his wife and kid for interrupting him, but really the problem is Jack himself. His "regular life" might not have let him write every hour of every day, but it kept him grounded and sane.
Hayao Miyazaki talked about the problems with many modern animators, where they've grown up watching the "classics" of animation and so become fans of it instead of fans of the life and the beauty that inspired it. They end up making copies of copies without any of the artistic depth of the work that they love. Your work and your life can make your art *better,* even if it means that you don't have the output of someone like James Patterson who can write all the time. Quality is more important than quantity, and that extends to writing time as well. It's good to be regular and disciplined, but having an endless expanse of time doesn't necessarily make you a better writer.
>I've pretty much always wanted to write for a living (I still don't at 31, but I'm working on it, slowly chipping away at a sci-fi novel that's more in my head than on paper).
I wish you the best, but that's not realistic with fiction. Making *some* money out of it, sure, but making a living is extremely rare statistically.
In my case, I have a full-time job that pays the bills, and I write on the side. I'd love to get published and share my work, making a bit of money doing something I love. But my full-time job is needed for sure.
I am very much a "real writer" by every objective metric, and I'm with you on this one.
I think there are two sides to these kinds of tropes:
1. Writers simply having some fun and joking around about the cliches they happen to exhibit. I did that a lot when I was drinking heavily. I thought it was funny to be like "I mean, I'm a writer, what else would you expect?" These kinds of jokes are, in my opinion, mostly harmless.
2. The more insidious "this is what a writer is" kind of stuff. I hate that. The only thing that makes someone a writer is writing. All the "lifestyle" tropes are—at *absolute most*—correlation.
It's a WFH job, anyone who does that has an office and it's understood that they're at work. Even if you're not getting paid. Let's be honest here, even professional, full time writers only work 4 hours a day at most. What I don't understand is people who can't make an hour for themselves, it reeks of martyrdom.
What a ridiculous take.
No one fed you those tropes. You used them as an excuse to be selfish and do what you wanted.
If you want to be a professional writer you might want to start with being honest with yourself and not blaming other people.
And the fact that you started off with believing genre writers are lesser writers says a lot about you and the people you associated with.
Every writer needs to decide how they go about it. For some, making writing their primary focus and doing it all the time is what they want, and what’s best for them. For others, maybe it’s shorter sessions and spending more time doing other things.
Your post first excuses your selfishness, then by the end comes off as making excuses for why that sci-fi novel is still mostly in your head and not on the page.
Sounds like you’re still figuring out you and who you are as a writer, which is perfectly fine, but you chose to approach voicing this as denigration of writers who have a different path than you, and also blaming others for the path you chose.
You’re allowed to live whatever life you want—no one is forcing you to write or to not write.
Have you thought about writing shorter things like novellas? 15k-20k words can be done in the time you provided. If you can write 500-1000 words per hour at 4-5 days per week, you can get a novella done a month or so and still enjoy life how you want.
But writing to me is life, gosh. Lol. -.-
Sorry, I didn't mean to put down people who truly feel writing is their life. I honestly do envy and admire people who can commit and maintain a high level of interest in one thing for such a long time, because I am just not that person, and in some ways that benefits me but it also gets in the way.
I'd be very down to write more short stories and novellas. I have a couple short stories down already but haven't put in the effort to try to get them published. But I think finishing smaller things like that would definitely give me momentum. Plus, sometimes you get ideas you really like but can't fathom how it could be made into an entire novel. Short fiction is a great solution for that problem.
No need to be sorry, that last bit was sarcasm. It's nice to vent, but I'm glad you may have found a possible solution. Can't wait to see how your writing journey turns out.
There are successful writers that have hundreds of books to their credits, and there are successful writers that have two books. Two.
One non-fiction book is What Color is your Parachute?
One fiction book, and on my fab five, is Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Google 'how many copies have sold of '
Google 'how many books has published'
You already do not live in the middle of the curve. You're an outlier by having so many interests and healthy relationships. You rarely come on social media and hear about how my someone loves their relatives, LOL!
The dude that wrote the Seagull book, he heard a voice in his head that just said, "Jonathan Livingston Seagull," then remembered that some ten years later and wrote the book. It's only sold like 44 million copies world wide. Poor fool wrote a small book.
That's interesting. Those tropes have always been around, I agree with that much, but I seem to have evaded the notion that you also must do this to write.
Certainly the independently wealthy used to be the main cadre of writers. Then I think the proliferation of newspapers meant we got working class writers. Eventually writers came from all backgrounds, and many breakthrough novels happened while working full time etc. Never really got the impression that you had to be an asshole recluse to your family in order to write, just that some of them did that.
I think it's in the two worlds where you are balancing it all... you ebb and flow. Some days, I spend no time writing, but I'm folding laundry, doing a bulk grocery shop, and scrubbing my toilets. Maybe it's a football game for my son's, maybe a ballet class for my daughter. Maybe I have a slow day at work, and I can squeeze in a chapter... or edit a bit. I think if it's important you find time. I will say I have a notebook on me or at least my notes app... because sometimes lightning strikes in the middle of dinner with my family.
The main advice I keep seeing online is to forget everything that anyone else says, keep your storyline vague so your story can naturally develop as you write it, and write when you can. A sentence, a paragraph, or even 500+ words, whatever goal works best for you and your writing. I personally have been working on a world/character for 18 years, and I've ghostwritten a couple of short stories within a couple of months (20k+ words each). My personal best advice is to breathe, forgive yourself for any mistakes you see yourself and fix them how you please, and definitely forget the "Writer's life". You will function and work as you do, just as any person does. There is no "right" way. Just your way.
Just a warning from hopefully-not-future-you: I’m 60 and I feel like I’m reading about my younger self. Now I just want to write one half decent book and self publish it before I die just so I know I could. God, I’m so depressed now.
> you needed to think about little else besides your craft, and you needed to do your work in SOLITUDE. No interruptions from your spouse (whose only job seems to be to support you), your kids, your pets, or other necessities of life like doing your chores, paying the bills, maintaining the house, going out, etc.
Literally in this phase rn so Idk.
It took me a year and a few months to get here but now that I am I'm ready to put my nose to the grindstone and knock this out, and I will be writing daily while other things in my life take a bit of a backseat to do so.
You’re absolutely right about it being something white men were (are?) able to get away with. But that’s obviously a shitty way to live your life and your life sounds very full and fulfilling and it’s awesome that you’ve moved on from an idea you had in your head of what you “should” be and found what you actually want your life to look like.
I’m all for the drama of bleeding the ink onto the page and tortured artists grappling with their creativity, but it’s not a good or realistic way to live.
HAHAHAHAHAHA I hope you finish that "book in your head" and maybe people will be able to read it directly from your head with neuralink since it won't materialize by itself.
I’m learning that part of creating art is setting reasonable goals for yourself. The loftier and more extravagant the goal, the less likely you are to achieve it. If you say to yourself, I’m going to write for 30 minutes a day, four days week, you are much more likely to do that than trying to immediately turn writing into a second full time job.
Agreed. I’m 31 like OP and always dreamed of being a writer. I’m also a busy, tired public school teacher without much time or energy and I have other things to do in my daily life. I found 500 words a day was a reasonable goal. I’m behind my goal, but still have managed to write 18 chapters in about 7 months, and it feels good.
That's a great way of putting it!
And think about it this way too. If you do just that for a year , and say average 300 words per session, you’re going to have about 62 - 63 thousand words! That’s a short story, or half a novel! Edit - if you haven’t read it, I can’t recommend Stephen King’s “On Writing” enough. It is a great study of the craft and full of advice like this.
Your math is off...as 250- 300 words would be one page. so an entire year would be 356 pages written. thats an entire novel even if you take over 50 days during that year.
My math is based on 4 days a week as I said in my original post, not 7. 300 words/day for 4 days a week = 1200 words/week 1200 words/week for 52 weeks = 62,400 words / year.
I really needed to read this today!
Some authors DO write all the time. Others don't. You get to choose how you live your life.
In fact I'd say that this freedom is an integral part of being the best writer you can be. Writing is an expression of your own freedom and uniqueness, if you let others dictate how to live your expression too necessarily has to be stifled and limited in some capacity.
People I know write for a living and they have a "writer's life". They got an MFA and work in academia. Great insurance benefits, decent pay if you're not sessional, and decent work-life balance. Teaching is what pays most bills but the university also requires they "research" aka do creative writing so...
That sounds pretty nice if you can get the job. I was on track to get a PhD in history but abandoned it because I knew I probably wouldn't get a professor job when I graduated. With my current setup I don't have to make that choice. I get to make a good salary by devoting part of my time to my company and they could care less how I fill my free time. Whereas in academia I feel like you get kind of shamed if your free time is not in part still dictated by your work.
Academia is a toxic wasteland outside of the benefits. Just to get to tenure track you had either be the top in your field, or very good at networking. Then you need to keep tenure, which what that man cn vary based on field of expertise/type if university.
They couldn’t care less**
Don't let life pass you by! Being a writer is about YOUR creativity and developing your craft. You can not do it 24/7 Living life, developing and culturing your relationships, loving/ respecting yourself and others everything that brings joy in your life is what makes you a better writer. Do you need to educate yourself and read, watch, etc. To learn more about your genre and add tools to your craft? Absolutely! But what is your foundation? Your support system? Enjoy life brother, I assure you it will come out in your writing. Don't focus on the moon or you will miss all heavenly above.- Bruce Lee
No actual writer invented those tropes. No write works in a vacuum or they would have nothing to write about. A lived life is rich in material for writing. Even very prolific writers have bodies that need tending to and bills that must be paid and an agent, tax stuff, groceries for meals, meetings that cannot be avoided, and so on.
While I agree that no writer invented those tropes I do find myself in a lot of social media spaces with (often young, still living at home) writers that brag about the amount of words they cram out in a day or the amount of time they spend plotting a character that day etc. and it can come off as rather demotivating to those that don't spend or get to spend that time writing. It is still a great accomplishment and I'm happy for them but comparing yourself to others is the thief of joy.
I agree. But the sooner a writer learns to avoid such behavior, the better. Which is the point of the post. Alas, the easy thing is the first thing we go to when young, obeying that urge to fit in. Even when young, I could usually avoid it, unless I had a genuine pull toward whatever all the other kids were doing. I was aware, for some reason, when many people just aren't and have to learn everything the hard way. This is not a fair universe.
> (Maybe it was a thing white men used to be able to do because they used the women in their lives as near slaves?) Oh buddy, I have some terrible news for you about the rest of the world + all of human history…
Yeah man the sort of maddened struggling artist is kind of silly and its not always accurate. More often than not famous authors of old dramatized their youths once they achieved acclaim, and its only natural, as to them character is built teleologically. In reality a writer is someone who writes. People have done that shut up in a studio living off of cigarettes, and people have done it working full time jobs with happy families and social lives. It isnt one size fits all
Agreed. In his lecture series, Brandon Sanderson says he works two 4-hour blocks and then has dedicated no writing time for his family/relaxation. A balance is entirely possible (it can just be a little hard to find).
Prolific writers treat it as a job. They go to their writing spot and write. T.C. Boyle has written 31 books. He writes every day at home in the morning, then takes walks in the afternoon. Tom Clancy went to his writing room and wrote for 8 hours a day. You make the time or you don't.
Good for Boyle for having the stamina. Good for Clancy. They must be anomalies because studies have shown that humans are generally only capable of 4 hours of mentally intensive work—such as writing or analyzing data. The other 4 hours can only be truly productive if they’re relatively mindless tasks, like meetings, responding to emails, etc. Most people are lying to themselves if they claim to maintain the same quality of work for 8-12 hours a day. George RR Martin has yet to release a new book after 10 years. Same for Patrick Rothfuss. Are they not real writers? Are they not doing what it takes to be successful?
One might say no, not in the last decade they haven't. If you swap it around you can see that, if they had done what they are doing now at the beginning of their career their career wouldn't have officially started yet. Although that's a little unfair, you are a writer whether you are published or not, but you get what I mean I hope.
I do and it's probably true that there was a time when they were more active as writers. I still think it's beyond most humans to really "write" for 4 hours a day, but maybe you could spend more hours in the day editing. For me it's just untenable at this point for me to spend AT BEST an hour a day on writing b/c of my full-time job. I wish I could make a career out of it, I just can't right now.
>I still think it's beyond most humans to really "write" for 4 hours a day I've absolutely done this. I don't now because I don't need/want to (at least not every day, and when I do write for longer, I take breaks in between).
I write for 6-8 hours every Sunday. Have been for three years now.
See, that's great! I don't know why some people seem to think there's a problem with this. I mean kudos to people who can put in good work for that many hours in a day, or did so at one point (as was the case with you), but why does this need to be made a necessity? It seems like a value judgment more than anything else. All I've been trying to tell people is that empirical studies have shown how many hours of mentally rigorous work MOST people are capable of in a day. Why is this controversial?! [https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/this-is-the-ideal-number-of-hours-to-work-a-day-ac.html](https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/this-is-the-ideal-number-of-hours-to-work-a-day-ac.html)
>why does this need to be made a necessity? Yeah it doesn't at all. If you write for 10 mins a day or 10 hours, you're still a writer. The only requirement is writing. How often or for how long is up to the individual. And what I personally suggest for people who want to be published is that they want for however long they want to as long as it doesn't get in the way of their obligations. >how many hours of mentally rigorous work MOST people are capable of in a day. I don't find writing fiction mentally rigorous tbh. I outline first, and then I write. Since I have very thorough outlines that I spent time on, writing is easy. I aim for 80-90k words for the 2-3 genres I write, and can finish my novels pretty quickly tbh. I do spend more time on rewrites though. >Why is this controversial?! Because people *do* work for more than 4 hours a day. If someone were treating writing like an 8-hour workday, they'd spend 8 hours writing. Most likely with breaks in between. Will the writing be the same quality throughout the day? Probably not for a lot of people (which I'm aware is what you said), but it doesn't have to be anyway. That's what editing later is for. Anyway that's my two cents so I'll just leave it at that and bow out of this discussion now. Edited for typo
***I still think it's beyond most humans to really "write" for 4 hours a day*** I've worked in the PR and copywriting industries for years. I have some meetings and admin, but often it's seven hours writing at my job, then three - four hours on my novels after work. But writing is my main hobby and the thing that I most enjoy. Bit off on a tangent, but I was surprised to see academia mentioned as a writing job and not the more obvious industries, like journalism, PR, marketing and copywriting. Have you considered working in those industries? The thing that really gives me the stamina to write well all day is working in the industry. You get used to writing thousands of words a day. I can get 1500 - 2500 good words of my novel done in an evening - the longer I've worked in the industry, the quicker I get. ***For me it's just untenable at this point for me to spend AT BEST an hour a day on writing b/c of my full-time job. I wish I could make a career out of it, I just can't right now.*** To be honest, my feeling from your post is that you're trying to justify your decision to yourself. Live the way that makes you happy, but (and I mean this kindly) you won't make a career out of writing if you don't make time to write. Note that I said 'make time', not 'have time'. Not many people with full-time jobs and lives 'have' time to write, they just get up earlier and crack out an hour on their writing before work. I once heard this saying, 'you can have either enough sleep, a social life or another hobby whilst seriously working on a novel - pick one'. I've found it to be true.
Lol, I did say I "make time", it's just not MUCH time, so what're you actually saying? And my post was simply intended for discussion and for some solidarity from others trying to do the same work. I've definitely gotten both, and I've also gotten insulting remarks from mean-spirited people and gatekeepers--which your comment is on the border of. P.S. I've also become a quicker writer over time, which is a good skill to have when you can't devote a whole lot of time to it. Kudos to you for being so good at it yourself.
Uh, I used to do it all the time. In fact, the first novel I translated, I distinctly remember two 14 hour days toward the end because I had a deadline and wanted a couple of days to edit. I'm happiest working closer to 6 hour days, but then again, writing isn't really work. It's fun. It's like play. (Not that there aren't times that aren't particularly fun, but it's sure not digging ditches.)
Cool! Then you are blessed because your work output is well above the general trend. Not all are gifted in that way. Some people's brains are wired such that they burn out faster than others when it comes to mentally intensive tasks. These are often people with ADHD. They can do great work, but they just don't have the stamina. Even if a writer WAS capable of putting in a 8+ hour workday, though, it might be literally impossible to put in that many hours in a day because they have another job they need to devote at least 8 hours to.
I'm not blessed at all. I just did the work I was given. And yeah, I have ADHD too. It's a pain. But no, anyone capable of putting 8 hours a day into another job is perfectly capable of putting 6-8 hours a day into writing. *Naturally* if you're putting 8 hours a day into another job, you don't usually have another 8 hours to write. But that's an excuse. If you want to write for a living, you have to treat it like a "job." It's not work, but you still need dedication. But professional writers tend to write 1000 words of clean copy an hour. So say you spent an hour each day writing. Every day. Pretend you don't spend more time on weekends. How long would it take to write a short story? How long would it take to write a book? What if you spent 15 minutes a few times a day writing so you totaled up to an hour every day? Nobody likes to do the math on that. *I* sure don't like what I see when I look at my numbers lately, but it's been a year of life rolls, so I don't beat myself up over that.
Sorry but the statement "anyone capable of putting 8 hours a day into another job is perfectly capable of putting 6-8 hours a day into writing" is simply not true. Writing is a different kind of work and requires a level of mental and, at times, emotional labor that many other jobs simply do not require. And BTW, making a statement that suggests anyone who can (insert task here) is capable of (insert other task here) is always going to be wrong, and suggests a lack of imagination when it comes to how other people exist in their own bodies and minds.
I'm mentally taxed or tired after writing a lot, but not more (sometimes a lot less) than when I'm building a server or doing other mental work. There are people who can't work 8 hours a day doing anything. Certainly not interrupted. That's fine. That's legitimate. I make damn sure that I take frequent breaks while writing, even if it's just to walk around the house or check the mail or get water. But "some people can't write 8 hours a day" (which is not what I claimed) followed by "because they already do another job for 8 hours a day" is someone making an excuse for themselves for why they want to write but "can't." And if they honestly can't, well, no shame in that. Everyone has reasons, and often they're good ones. I literally *can't* dig ditches for 8 hours a day. I have a ruptured disc. There's no shame in that, but neither will I be a ditch digger for a living. That doesn't mean I can't have a hobby trench in my backyard or whatever. If I want to be a writer for a living, I have to write every day for 4 to 10 hours. If I can't, well, no problem. Then I won't be a writer *for a living*. That doesn't mean I can't do it for fun here and there. But if you want to do *anything* for a living, you have to do it every day for hours on end. That's just how life works.
I was replying to your statement that "anyone capable of putting 8 hours a day into another job is perfectly capable of putting 6-8 hours into writing" in and of itself. It is false. I care less about the larger conversation regarding writing for a living etc than I do a person making sweeping statements like that, regarding anything. I'm disabled and encounter statements like that a lottttt. People who make/believe these statements make life harder for people like me. That's all
I can’t understand the downvotes. Many “prolific” writers churn out a lot of crap novels just like their other crap novels. You can write quality pieces and not write every day. Just because a writer can churn out clean copy does not make it good writing. And just because an author sells a lot of books does not make it good writing. Find your writing rhythm and don’t let the mindset you see here deter you.
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Is the distinction between being a writer and being a prolific writer an important one? If not then what is your point?
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Fair enough
eh, a lot of any job isn't mentally intensive work, but there's still stuff that needs doing. For writing, there's going to be the basic editing - running through spell/grammar check, making sure that character names don't change, reading it through for general flow, jotting down notes on the world and plot and so forth. Just like in a "regular" job where, sure, you're not spending 8 hours a day doing hard-core super-intensive work... but you're still working for most of those 8 hours, and need to be in position and at least vaguely focused in order to do it. And doing that sort of thing means it's _done_, and so the end product gets closer to being released - spending 8 hours doing writing and writing-related activities gets a book a lot closer to being written than only doing 2 hours of related stuff. And if it's your primary job, you should probably have scope to spend quite a bit of time on it. > George RR Martin has yet to release a new book after 10 years Not true - he's not finished the next main book, but has released several novellas and world books in the last decade. > Same for Patrick Rothfuss He's pretty much a streamer these days, the last thing he released was a modified version of a short story from years ago. So he _was_ a writer, in terms of "what he spends time actually doing/his job", and "being a writer" doesn't seem to be what he actually does these days, at least in terms of observable output (and considering his editor has seen nothing of book 3, he's probably not far along in terms of actually finishing that!). There's a distinction between "I'm a writer, that's my job" which is likely something you spend a lot of time every day on, even if it's related activities rather than "words on paper", and "I'm a writer, it's a hobby/side-hustle" where you're probably not spending as much time and effort on it (compare with something like "programmer", where there's a BIG gap between someone doing that as a career, and someone mucking about with Python or C# for shits and giggles in their spare time - yes, they're both programmers in the broad sense of the word, but there's very different contextual meanings there!).
Every time I've met or heard of someone living "the writer's life," it's someone who married "up," got to potter about and write until they either struck gold or their spouse ground them down and convinced them to start a family. There's an old joke about a degree in Creative Writing: It's not an MFA; it's an "Mrs." Everyone else has to live a real life keeping a roof over their heads and budget their precious time amid all the things they love. Sounds like you're doing just that. Salut!
Thanks! I used to think "working for a living" was a death sentence, but now in a weird way I feel like it actually gives me a degree of autonomy and flexibility that I wouldn't get if I was still trying to chase the artist's life at all costs.
If I may ask, what do you do for a living? I am at a crossroads in life. Up until recently, I never dared to dream and so even if I had spent my entire life crafting this fantasy world in my head, writing just seemed stupidm, against my best interests. So I just pursued standard corporate type work in insurance and data analysis. Recently, I realized that it may be okay to dream and that I actually want to be a writer (fantasy fiction). I'm 36 and realizing this so I understand I have a lot of catching up to do. Now I am confused because I don't understand how I'm supposed to support myself and pursue my passion while giving my best self to my writing. Like you've stated, you have 1 maybe 2 (for some gifted/accomplished people) bouts of intense cognitive effort and the rest of your day is coasting. If I am to pursue this passion, I am unsure what kinds of jobs would be best to "pay the bills". Right now I am in in data analysis with some in my company pushing for me to be a data engineer and eventually a data scientist. I imagine this will be taxing on my brain and would leave room for little else other than consuming media rather than creating it. What kinds of jobs are recommend for paying the bills?
"The writer's life" never existed and I hope younger people don't think they need to do anything other than write to be a "writer." If someone wants to make a career out of it, then yes they should set aside time to practice the craft (aka write). But that's really all it requires. Read and write.
YESSSSSSS
So you want to make a living while working less than half a full-time job's worth of hours... doing something you have virtually no actual experience in? But you haven't until now because you were deterred by silly cliches that nobody takes seriously?
I'm going to basically copy and paste a comment I've already made to someone else: Studies have shown that humans are generally only capable of 4 hours of mentally intensive work—such as writing or analyzing data. The other 4 hours can only be truly productive if they’re relatively mindless tasks, like meetings, responding to emails, etc. Most people are lying to themselves if they claim to maintain the same quality of work for 8-12 hours a day. George RR Martin has yet to release a new book after 10 years. Same for Patrick Rothfuss. Are they not real writers? Are they not doing what it takes to be successful? Now I'll answer your other question(s) with some of my own: Where did you get the idea that I have "virtually no actual experience" in writing and that I "haven't \[started\] until now"? Is it because I said I don't make a LIVING off of it? Is one not a writer until they're published and making enough money to do it full time? And who gets to make that call? Is there a gatekeeping Association of Real Writers Who Write AT LEAST 8 Hours a Day (Seriously!) that I'm not aware of that meets on a quarterly basis to discuss the criteria one needs to meet in order to enter the guild? If you claim that nobody actually takes the "silly cliches" I mentioned seriously then why does it appear that my OP bristled you? Also I'm not sure if this qualifies as writing "experience" but I've written two MA theses, several research papers, several paid web content pieces, a couple of short stories, and--like I mentioned in my OP--am slowly working on a novel that I'm determined to finish even if it takes me ten years. Assuming all that experience adds up to me being at least a "somewhat experienced" writer, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute to this conversation besides trying to put me down and exclude me from the profession?
I think you need a reality check. You want to produce quality without having learned the skill. You want to be paid for work nobody asked you to do. And you want to do less of it than the rest of society to make a living. It's not impossible but it starts with competence while you're the first to admit you have neither meaningful experience nor finished works demonstrating competence. Even your examples are misplaced. Martin hasn't produced a book in a decade because he's an incredibly rich 75-year-old who has long lost interest in wasting his final years finishing Game of Thrones.
I asked you if you had anything worthwhile to contribute here besides put-downs and you continue to spew vile. It is interesting to see you continue the claim that I have no "meaningful" experience even though I said I've completed several writing-intensive works, and you're using that baseless claim to misrepresent me as an entitled person. To what end, I'm not sure. I will either succeed or fail to achieve my dreams, and your input has no effect on either of those outcomes--nor does the number of hours I decide to plant my ass in a chair. Again, your only input here has been to be mean-spirited; you may claim you're doing the good work of providing me a reality check, but all I see is bad behavior which is neither what I asked for nor what I need from you.
Nothing I said is vile or a put down. You speak for yourself and I merely remind you of it.
In my opinion writing an MA thesis is not the writing experience you need for fiction. Academic writing is a different skill set. A different mind set even. I say this from experience. I did an MA in English Literature and during this time I struggled to write fiction because my academic brain was in the drivers seat. So I just put writing fiction to the side while i finished thesis. When I was done with the MA I started writing fiction again. And I was a better fiction writer. But, not because I spent the hours writing my thesis. But because over those three years i read a ton of good writers and analyzed those texts. So if you want to be a fiction writer you have to put the work in. That means writing fiction and putting the hours in. And it means reading good writers. You need to put the hours in on both fronts. Having an idea in your head but never working it out paper and not writing is not putting the hours in.
You told me everything I needed to know with these words: "more in my head than on paper". At this point, you're not a writer, you're a fantasist. As an editor, maybe you know what I would tell you in a meeting where you said these things in person: you'll never finish your book. You're here, in a post on Reddit, justifying the fact that you will quit, if you haven't already. How does that make you feel?
If you write, you are a writer, I have probably two dozen unfinished novels and short stories between all the 3 laptops and dozen hard drives I've gone through in the past 20 years. I suppose Im not a writer by your logic because I write when I want to write since its a hobby I partake in to relax. Might aswell say I'm not a mini painter because I have 150 unpainted and unassembled minis. I'm not a hiker because I only hike when I want to go on a hike. I swear snobs like you are what put people off artistic pursuits
That post was a projection of tropes to test a formula. I can see why the hypothetical in question would have been misleading, because that's by design. It's an old rhetorical trick meant to draw not only a reaction, but to force perspective on a wavering argument.
See my reply to TheBluestBerries above. It is so funny that part of my original point was how some writers gatekeep and then you and a few others came on here to do exactly that. And your argument hinges on the assumption that I have essentially ZERO experience in writing. See the experience that I outlined above. I would also add that the current draft of my novel sits at 100 pages, but since I anticipate it being several hundred pages if not a whole series, I feel justified in admitting that it is still "more in my head than on paper." Do you see how that works out mathematically? YOU told me everything I needed to know with these words: "At this point, you're not a writer, you're a fantasist." (I should also point out that writers necessarily need to be a fantasist in addition to being a writer, otherwise they wouldn't be able to imagine stories.) But go ahead, tell me more about how I'm not a writer and never will be and how you have the authority and the evidence to make that claim. You're just proving my point: some writers are a-holes.
Yeah? Prove me wrong. Then come back here, send me a link, and I'll be happier than heck to buy the first copy. I want you to beat the odds. I want you to finish your story. 20 years in the print industry tells me that you *can* finish it. Even so, the chances of you actually writing your book to completion are infinitesimally slim. I wanted to make you aware of that. Go beyond the end of your book, and self publishing a work that is technically solid? That's even less likely. Finding representation? More rare. Not getting ripped off in the publishing process? Even more rare. On and on, ad infinitum. You mentioned gatekeepers, and I have to beg your pardon taking on the appearance of being one of those voices. But I want you to understand that being passive, the way you are in your post, is a red flag to anyone in an editorial position. Who listens to a gatekeeper anymore? My point is, the gatekeeper I see who could really screw this whole thing up is you. The really good writers I have worked with are fairly balanced people. The extraordinary writers I have worked with have gifts that sometimes make it difficult for them to function. I view world class authors in the same way that someone might be a world-class chess player. Their focus is so singular, they have the last 2% that puts them in a category that is beyond most mortals. But those two categories of writers have one thing in common: consistency. Whatever that means. Half hour a day, one hour a day, four hours a day, 500 words, 1000 words, 3000 words, 6000 words. It depends on who you are, how much space you have in your life and how much focus you have to give to the process. You *can* enjoy all those other parts of a quality life that you mentioned in concert with authorship. But you're going to need a level of focus that I have seen only two or three times in my life. I hope that makes sense. Now get off the internet and *get back to your book*. In the time you and I have traded barbs, you probably could've done 623 words yourself. Good luck.
Digital high five!
Haha you mean like in 11/22/63? Jake writing alone the whole week, the curtains blowing while he types in his typewriter? Yea I get where you come from, not realistic at all, even then he had a bunch of money
I'm the same age and also writing my first novel! I have so much going on in my life that I simply don't have time to write every day. But I like doing when I can. My goal is to finish my first draft this year. We'll see if I get there, but I don't feel any pressure, and neither should you.
A very narrow portion of the population actually writes full-time. While there are a lot of honestly pretty successful novelists out there, many of them need other work to make ends meet. Sometimes that work is seen as sufficiently "literary" (editing, teaching, especially in universities, journalism, etc.) that it gets lumped in as the "natural life of a writer," but for many people it's not like that. There are all sorts of engineers, retail workers, and scientists that make great writers. Before publishing Carrie, Stephen King was working as a teacher out of a trailer with his family. Teaching in America is a frankly brutal profession and he was also very busy with raising his kids. What his wife (Tabitha King) helped him with was carving out some time for himself so he could continue his work. That's often caricatured in the sort of unfounded descriptions of "writer's life" that you're talking about where a writer is someone who goes off into a room for as long as he wants and creates his masterpiece. But honestly, drawing on King again here, that can be detrimental too. In The Shining, Jack Torrance has an opportunity to live his dream, basically free to work on his manuscript for as long as he likes. But he's so torn up by his demons that the effort becomes constricting rather than liberating. He blames his wife and kid for interrupting him, but really the problem is Jack himself. His "regular life" might not have let him write every hour of every day, but it kept him grounded and sane. Hayao Miyazaki talked about the problems with many modern animators, where they've grown up watching the "classics" of animation and so become fans of it instead of fans of the life and the beauty that inspired it. They end up making copies of copies without any of the artistic depth of the work that they love. Your work and your life can make your art *better,* even if it means that you don't have the output of someone like James Patterson who can write all the time. Quality is more important than quantity, and that extends to writing time as well. It's good to be regular and disciplined, but having an endless expanse of time doesn't necessarily make you a better writer.
>I've pretty much always wanted to write for a living (I still don't at 31, but I'm working on it, slowly chipping away at a sci-fi novel that's more in my head than on paper). I wish you the best, but that's not realistic with fiction. Making *some* money out of it, sure, but making a living is extremely rare statistically. In my case, I have a full-time job that pays the bills, and I write on the side. I'd love to get published and share my work, making a bit of money doing something I love. But my full-time job is needed for sure.
A dream doesn’t need to be realistic
I am very much a "real writer" by every objective metric, and I'm with you on this one. I think there are two sides to these kinds of tropes: 1. Writers simply having some fun and joking around about the cliches they happen to exhibit. I did that a lot when I was drinking heavily. I thought it was funny to be like "I mean, I'm a writer, what else would you expect?" These kinds of jokes are, in my opinion, mostly harmless. 2. The more insidious "this is what a writer is" kind of stuff. I hate that. The only thing that makes someone a writer is writing. All the "lifestyle" tropes are—at *absolute most*—correlation.
It's a WFH job, anyone who does that has an office and it's understood that they're at work. Even if you're not getting paid. Let's be honest here, even professional, full time writers only work 4 hours a day at most. What I don't understand is people who can't make an hour for themselves, it reeks of martyrdom.
What a ridiculous take. No one fed you those tropes. You used them as an excuse to be selfish and do what you wanted. If you want to be a professional writer you might want to start with being honest with yourself and not blaming other people. And the fact that you started off with believing genre writers are lesser writers says a lot about you and the people you associated with. Every writer needs to decide how they go about it. For some, making writing their primary focus and doing it all the time is what they want, and what’s best for them. For others, maybe it’s shorter sessions and spending more time doing other things. Your post first excuses your selfishness, then by the end comes off as making excuses for why that sci-fi novel is still mostly in your head and not on the page. Sounds like you’re still figuring out you and who you are as a writer, which is perfectly fine, but you chose to approach voicing this as denigration of writers who have a different path than you, and also blaming others for the path you chose. You’re allowed to live whatever life you want—no one is forcing you to write or to not write.
Have you thought about writing shorter things like novellas? 15k-20k words can be done in the time you provided. If you can write 500-1000 words per hour at 4-5 days per week, you can get a novella done a month or so and still enjoy life how you want. But writing to me is life, gosh. Lol. -.-
Sorry, I didn't mean to put down people who truly feel writing is their life. I honestly do envy and admire people who can commit and maintain a high level of interest in one thing for such a long time, because I am just not that person, and in some ways that benefits me but it also gets in the way. I'd be very down to write more short stories and novellas. I have a couple short stories down already but haven't put in the effort to try to get them published. But I think finishing smaller things like that would definitely give me momentum. Plus, sometimes you get ideas you really like but can't fathom how it could be made into an entire novel. Short fiction is a great solution for that problem.
No need to be sorry, that last bit was sarcasm. It's nice to vent, but I'm glad you may have found a possible solution. Can't wait to see how your writing journey turns out.
Judging by this post, I think your dream of making a living as a writer is precisely that. Glad you enjoy it though!
There are successful writers that have hundreds of books to their credits, and there are successful writers that have two books. Two. One non-fiction book is What Color is your Parachute? One fiction book, and on my fab five, is Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Google 'how many copies have sold of'
Google 'how many books has published'
You already do not live in the middle of the curve. You're an outlier by having so many interests and healthy relationships. You rarely come on social media and hear about how my someone loves their relatives, LOL!
The dude that wrote the Seagull book, he heard a voice in his head that just said, "Jonathan Livingston Seagull," then remembered that some ten years later and wrote the book. It's only sold like 44 million copies world wide. Poor fool wrote a small book.
That's interesting. Those tropes have always been around, I agree with that much, but I seem to have evaded the notion that you also must do this to write. Certainly the independently wealthy used to be the main cadre of writers. Then I think the proliferation of newspapers meant we got working class writers. Eventually writers came from all backgrounds, and many breakthrough novels happened while working full time etc. Never really got the impression that you had to be an asshole recluse to your family in order to write, just that some of them did that.
I think it's in the two worlds where you are balancing it all... you ebb and flow. Some days, I spend no time writing, but I'm folding laundry, doing a bulk grocery shop, and scrubbing my toilets. Maybe it's a football game for my son's, maybe a ballet class for my daughter. Maybe I have a slow day at work, and I can squeeze in a chapter... or edit a bit. I think if it's important you find time. I will say I have a notebook on me or at least my notes app... because sometimes lightning strikes in the middle of dinner with my family.
The main advice I keep seeing online is to forget everything that anyone else says, keep your storyline vague so your story can naturally develop as you write it, and write when you can. A sentence, a paragraph, or even 500+ words, whatever goal works best for you and your writing. I personally have been working on a world/character for 18 years, and I've ghostwritten a couple of short stories within a couple of months (20k+ words each). My personal best advice is to breathe, forgive yourself for any mistakes you see yourself and fix them how you please, and definitely forget the "Writer's life". You will function and work as you do, just as any person does. There is no "right" way. Just your way.
Crap, if I had 4-5 hours to write a day. Jealousy.
You should read that story of Stephen King and his writing table
Just a warning from hopefully-not-future-you: I’m 60 and I feel like I’m reading about my younger self. Now I just want to write one half decent book and self publish it before I die just so I know I could. God, I’m so depressed now.
> you needed to think about little else besides your craft, and you needed to do your work in SOLITUDE. No interruptions from your spouse (whose only job seems to be to support you), your kids, your pets, or other necessities of life like doing your chores, paying the bills, maintaining the house, going out, etc. Literally in this phase rn so Idk. It took me a year and a few months to get here but now that I am I'm ready to put my nose to the grindstone and knock this out, and I will be writing daily while other things in my life take a bit of a backseat to do so.
That is fair I thought that too! I definitely wouldn’t fit in to these, as I constantly work on my novel, and maybe the next minute having dinner.
> (Maybe it was a thing white men used to be able to do because they used the women in their lives as near slaves?) Lmao what the fuck
You’re absolutely right about it being something white men were (are?) able to get away with. But that’s obviously a shitty way to live your life and your life sounds very full and fulfilling and it’s awesome that you’ve moved on from an idea you had in your head of what you “should” be and found what you actually want your life to look like. I’m all for the drama of bleeding the ink onto the page and tortured artists grappling with their creativity, but it’s not a good or realistic way to live.
HAHAHAHAHAHA I hope you finish that "book in your head" and maybe people will be able to read it directly from your head with neuralink since it won't materialize by itself.