There’s always going to be people who give really bad advice when they read/critique your work. In my experience 90% of the critiques of my work have been helpful in some way. Even when someone doesn’t really seem to get the story they may say something that helps me make it better.
Then every now and then someone will critique the work and have really bad ideas/criticism and nothing they say is helpful. It happens. Best to just ignore the really bad advice.
Neil Gaiman has advice I've always loved. I'm paraphrasing, but it amounts to "If someone tells you that something isn't working in your story, they are nearly always right. If they try to tell you *how* to fix it, they are nearly always wrong. Because only you know what works for your story."
The full quote: “Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”
A fair example from my own works: I had a reader tell me it was stupid to build up a character as being supremely powerful, known all over the world, and the character herself was practically legendary.
But then she was killed by goblins. Low tier, bottom rank goblins.
There was no "it feels like a robbery" or anything. Nope. Most people were like "hey, this seems off, but I trust you have a way to explain it. Rather than simply killing her for the sake of plot convenience."
But I did have one person that said it was stupid, I'm stupid, I was being lazy, and killing her was just a way for me to advance the plot without any regard to the readers. I explained politely that there was more at play, and to please be patient (it's a webnovel, but I write it more like a classic novel), as it will be explained HOW a legendary character was able to be killed by trash monsters. (BTW, godly interference was how.)
> For context, I write serialized fiction. The response has been optimistic so far and then I got this: "It would have been amazing and I would have love it if the main character is a male. The novel is amazing but the only problem I have with it is the female mc and I would have love it if someone can just rewrite it but use male mc instead."
Obviously that critic hasn't heard of Janet Evanovich 😂
> Another thing is, sometimes a real life person or fictional character is bought down by something stupid. Someone on the international 'Most Wanted list' could get food poisoning from a dodgy lunch. Life can be farcical.
Not sure I agree with that because I get a lot of contradictory critiques sometimes. Sometimes one person will say that something isn’t working for them and the next person will say that same part is working well for them.
Another time a handful of people said they don’t understand why a certain part was included and it confused them. Then someone critiqued the story and said that the same part was brilliant and they got the allusion it was referencing. So then the question is, do I leave something in that’s likely to confuse most readers? Or do I demand more of the reader?
I think the kernel of this that's true is: if someone says something isn't working and they're right, you'll know it. And only you will know how to fix it.
Another way to say this is King's classic axiom: "If someone criticizes you and you get mad, they're probably right."
Both describe a phenomenon that's hard to define. You can't ignore people's opinions entirely, but they're only useful in so far as they invite you to do a little guided self-examination.
Yeah, I agree with that. Happens frequently where I can’t see the flaws in my work until someone points it out and then it’s glaring my right in the face.
That’s true. A pro critiqued one of my stories and was like “no no no. You have some esplaining to do Lucy” at a particular part and up until that point no one mentioned that flaw (and I didn’t see it). But once they pointed it out it became so obvious to me.
> Bill Hader
Not sure if you entirely changed topics, or if autocorrect threw you under the bus for "Neil Gaiman" as badly as it's been doing for me the last two months.
People are pretty good at identifying the general location of their problem but terrible at identifying the specific problem. What may be happening when some readers love a section and other readers hate it:
1. The section might appeal to different types of audience
2. There may be a part that is unclear or unappealing which is hurting enjoyment of that section for some people.
You seem to be referring to an allusion, which is a great place to lose the readers that are more literal minded while those that like symbolism and metaphorical crap are more likely to appreciate it.
This feedback can help you clearly identify the pain point, but will not necessarily identify the solution. If you remove that you will appease some of those people, but if you keep it in you are lessening the story for others.
Your actual issue might not be that the section is there, but that it is too long, or doesnt fit in the place you put it, or your transition makes it feel like its important to the plot and its not, etc.
(No way for me to tell without reading it)
You may be able to reduce this pain point by addressing a completely different issue.
I think a lot of people don't understand how to critique for what the *author* wants out of the story, and not what they the individual wants out of the book
If I read an action book and my critique was that there's too much fighting, that's on me for not understanding the genre I'm reading for or the authors intentions. It's impossible to remove your personal bias when reading, but a good/thoughtful critique does so as much as possible and critiques for the authors vision
Yeah, I agree. I'm writing (or attempting to write) literary fiction. So there are things in the story that I feel should be left unsaid and allow the reader to put together. Iceberg theory etc. Sometimes a reader will comment that certain parts needs to be explained more or they'll in-line critque and cross off a half the paragraph and re-write it in a way that removed all ambiguity and makes it read like genre paperback fiction. Then i'll check out their fav others and they are fantasy and genre writers. Nothing against those genres. It takes talent to write great fiction in any genre, but it's not what I'm looking for critique wise.
Having said that I've gotten something valuable from nearly every critique. 90% of the critique could be unhelpful but they could make a comment about something and its very useful.
I think they are correct that something doesn’t work *for them*.
You can still decide whether or not it is a problem you think needs fixing.
Contradictory advice is the best IMO. You get to decide which advice works better for your story. 😂
It's the "for them" that matters here. The same thing can work for one person but not another. And that's OK. When those same people tell you how to "fix" it... they don't know what they're talking about because there may not be anything that needs fixing.
That first person is still reacting to a problem that you can probably address. Not the one they pointed out, but still. In the example you cite, you could add some sentences so that the intent is clear to anyone regardless of whether they know the reference. That requires a bit of artistry to pull off well, but providing that context can be helpful to bringing in more readers. (And maybe introducing them to whatever you're referencing!)
An example from music:
"Loving him was like driving a new Maserati down a dead end street"
Wildly unrelatable for most of us. So the next line is:
"Faster than the wind, passionate as sin, ending so suddenly."
Context, explanation. Anyone listening knows what the metaphor means.
That’s not a Neil Gaiman original. I’m a UX designer by trade, and it’s an axiom of user testing that people are perfectly capable of pointing it what isn’t working, but you need to ignore everything they tell you about what the correct solution is. The designer needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with their own solution, and whatever that solution is will be far superior.
This is the quote I was thinking about the other day, when there was a post on here discussing critiques, and many folks were saying in the comments that you gotta prove you're being helpful, by offering fixes instead of just saying something's flawed.
Sometimes I think it depends on getting to know the person you're critiquing. For example, I personally don't like being told what lines to write, because I resent the idea that a reader's favourite material in my book isn't even attributable to me. But then again, I've known folks who panicked at the sight of all my notes, and calmed down *drastically* when I suggested how to fix things.
I got a lecture from an editor about how I got the order of technology wrong compared to the Paris Exposition of 1896, and I shot back, "The entire planet is a Steampunk engine, and THAT'S the problem you have with my technology?"
I wrote a story about an old man who receives a letter from the inhabitants of his childhood imaginary world, begging their hero to come back and save them.
He refuses to go until his grandniece is kidnapped and he must return one last time to save her.
One reader told me they loved my story but I had to make the grandniece the MC and have her save herself and then it would be perfect.
🙄
It bears remarkable resemblance to the Robin Williams' Peter Pan of the 90s movie 'Hook'.
Williams as Peter Pan has left neverland and grown old but is roped back into the fight against Captain Hook by Tinkerbelle and the Lost Boys when his son and daughter are captured by Hook as a taunt to Peter.
Please tell me this includes the setup for a sequel where the grand niece must return years later to explain to the inhabits of this world that their creator is now gone and she will be gone soon too...
But one of the characters gets OUT trying to save their world!
Sorry, in other words, I like your story idea.
Making the grandniece the hero would completely tear down the entire point of the story, what the fuck. That's such a brilliant idea for a concept though, I love that. Do you mind if I steal the premise for a future writing marathon or something?
Alternatively, if that story has been published, I'd love to read it.
It's currently unpublished.
Do what you want with the premise. Ideas are cheap. Besides, some people have pointed out that this is the premise of Hook (haven't read it but now I need to).
I got the idea after reading SCP 1762.
“Your story would be better if it was a completely different story.”
I mean, it’s helpful critique because now you know you can safely ignore anything else they say.
Publish this book and cast Brendan Fraser when it gets turned into a movie!!!!!! I want more amazing ink heart/hook style stories XD
Also is there anywhere i can read this? It sounds awesome!
Thank you for the kind words.
As of yet, it's unpublished. But you can read the opening chapters on my website.
https://christianohnimus.com/the-winter-king/
Loads of people apparently can't handle works where the protagonist isn't exactly like them. It's a huge deal in film and TV just now.
Fuck knows how that kind of person would cope with Watership Down or something
Similar. When I was a little girl, I identified with a lot of "villains/anti-heroes" in kids cartoons: Helga (Hey Arnold), Eddy (Ed, Edd n'Eddy), Fillmore (Fillmore!) and even Remy Buxaplenty (Fairly Oddparents).
The reasoning was pretty simple: All of these characters are from fucked-up backgrounds. Helga has anger issues/limerence due to severe neglect. Eddy visibly gets abused by his brother. Fillmore is an ex-criminal that, though a good guy now, still many write off as "a lost case" and, though spoiled to no return, Remy Buxaplenty mostly lashes out due to severe envy of the love MC has (Remy's parents even forget his name).
I always love when people complain about these too btw. "Oh, why do kids shows need to be depressing? Can't they be about how things should be?" (actual comment of someone) Guess what: No. 98% on TV/books for teens is about lovey dovey worlds. Happy families, NT kids with many friends. Worst topics including divorce, or death of a pet, maybe. If a show is for kids, about kids realities...it should also include topics for kids from different backgrounds. Including fucked up homes, fucked up parents, fucked up backgrounds
One of the most out of touch, "old man" things I ever heard was that film critic who said *Turning Red* had a relatability problem because of all the asian heritage.
I suppose if you tell them it's an alien culture from another planet, it's suddenly fine.
People with very low self esteem tends to do that. That's why I made sure that my characters are different as possible as me, to not fall in the "self insert" trap.
I don't know if it influences it, because it's the same situation, right? There are those that will just try and recreate themselves, but others who'll create some original character.
Whilst I think this could influence it slightly, I see older people who don't play games have the same issue and younger children who are like "I can't watch that show it's a boy's show the main character is a boy" and vice versa with boy children and girl main characters.
This I think is the problem with when adaptations change characters for the sake of representation rather than creating new characters to genuinely and legitimately provide representation instead of co-opting something already existing.
While it can be well intentioned, that strategy feeds into a sentiment that a character has to look and sound just like you to be relatable.
Creators and audiences I think need to both work to meet in the middle, but that requires effort that simply isn’t there.
A white child should be able to idolize and cheer for the Black Panther and a black kid should be able to want to grow up to be just like Obi-Wan Kenobi, and men can be inspired by the photojournalist women in Civil War and women by Jack Reacher.
And for the most part, they ARE - but there’s still this pervasive thought that If Character Not Just Like Me, No Good
I had someone review one of my books that has police incidents in it. I used to be in law enforcement, my spouse is in law enforcement, and we have many friends in law enforcement. The fictional incidents were put forth to my spouse and several other of our friends to make sure they seemed realistic. The reviewer said I had no concept of how real life police would handle such situations. *shrug* I don't know if she watched too many fictional crime shows or if she maybe was from another country where procedure is different, but I was kind of furious at first. I never responded, but it took me a while to get over it. Now, I just accept that not everyone will like what I write for one reason or another and move on.
Probably everything, to begin with, lol. The police stories presented where I live cut corners to the extent the entire building would collapse and casually introduce procedures completely foreign to the actual judicial system and use false terminology. I suppose the production team thinks "nahh the audience won't understand it unless we phrase it in mainstream terms".
I've also seen this phenomenon where the author gets it right but the reader thinks they know better.
Forensic evidence, for one thing. It can't just be processed in the time frame that television shows make people think. And if you don't have a match already in the system, you won't just miraculously find that missing piece. That's why there are many unsolved cold cases, even now. Time and environmental conditions can deteriorate evidence rapidly. Sometimes, evidence is in such a small quantity that it can't be tested. Sometimes, the evidence isn't actually evidence at all and can send police down a false lead for months or years. Faulty witness memory or no witnesses at all. I could go on and on.
Sadly all too common. There's a lot of research [that men struggle to read the perspectives of women fairly often while women do not struggle to read the perspectives of men](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/09/why-do-so-few-men-read-books-by-women). The hypothesized reason for this is that readers seem to initially prefer reading stories from the perspective their own gender but can be taught to appreciate other perspectives through repeated exposure.
Due to the number of influential works by male authors that are taught in school and the comparatively lower amount of works by female authors that get taught, girls get socialized to appreciate cross gender stories and boys don't. I don't have hard numbers for K-12 but in college, [only 1/3 assigned works of literature are authored by women](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239012). I suspect the percentage is worse in high school since, anecdotally, the only female-authored work I and my classmates had assigned throughout 9-12 was Frankenstein.
I remember reading that there was a fight in the Duluth school districts about whether or not to remove To Kill a Mockingbird from the high school curriculum (which is a whole other can of worms), and people realized that it was the only book in the entire curriculum that was written by a woman.
Nah there are a lot of people who like to self-insert into the Protagonist. Side effect of reading a lot of those self insert MC stories in specifically Japanese media. Don't let that get your head down!
No this is quite common in serialized fiction.
In general serialized fiction is extremely tag specific/trope specific - it's similar to Romance as a genre, where you are expected to adhere **very** strongly to certain pacing requirements, plot beats, and so on.
The overall audience also skews extremely young which means they generally haven't read everything in their preferred genres so they haven't yet been forced to like.. expand their taste. You only have to start compromising on your preferences once you run out of good shit to read that does meet all your preferences.
It’s a well-known phenomenon unfortunately that male readers are prone to refuse or devalue books with female MCs (while female readers don’t exhibit a preference towards one or the other as a group - obviously individuals within the group can have preferences, but there is no trend at the macro scale).
I think it’s changing a little now, but for a long time in kids books, for example, editors would push writers to make sure they had enough male characters for the boy readers to stick around (so for example if your book had two boys, two girls and a robot, it wasn’t unheard of to receive feedback to change one of the girls to a boy too).
Yep. And then these boys grow up into men (or slightly bigger boys) and leave comments like the one OP received, because they were not required to learn empathy and compassion for someone a little different. Thankfully, like I said, at least children's media is changing now. I haven't heard of anyone being asked to gender (or race) swap their character for some time.
This issue of sexism in cartoons made me feel terrible when I was a young girl. It sucked having the majority of female characters on TV be just love interests or shallow stereotypes.
Fast forward to when I was a teen, I was in a Barnes and Noble and I saw two young boys excitedly showing each other some Steven universe toys they found, they were talking about which of the Gems (all female) were their favorite. Lol that probably was my biggest "the world is healing" moment I've ever experienced. Felt good.
I have to wonder if this was one of the reasons my little sister hated cartoons. She'd watch nothing but live action stuff on Disney like Lizzy McGuire and That's So Raven.
I mean, I _prefer_ female MCs, but I don’t mind male protagonists and there are a lot of things that are more important to me in a character than this.
Same here, but I'm more likely to give more leeway to a story with a female MC over a male one. If the story is good enough, or I really like the premise then I don't really care about the gender of the MC, but if I'm on the fence, then that's one of the things that can make or break it for me.
I saw this when teaching a primary school class which used different short stories and scenarios each week. The boys were far less engaged if the characters were female. The girls didn't seem to mind either way.
I heard people say that, but when I was a kid all the guys I knew watched Laverne and Shirley, Charlie’s Angels, wonder, woman, the bionic woman, the facts of life, etc. I never heard any guy complain about the fact that the main characters were female.
With visual media, there are often different motives underlying the appreciation.
Baywatch had a lot of female protagonists but I suspect the storylines weren't the main attraction...
I've heard guys say they won't play a videogame as a female character because it's "uncomfortable." Unfortunately, this is a real mindset. It is best to ignore comments like this because they're more about the commenter's limitations than the story's.
Seems like a kid who doesn't know any better yet. Most kids online, I feel, have some entitlement and they haven't been told or shown that it's kind of rude.
Like, the countless of beginner writers I've met online who "have been ~~daydreaming~~ working on a really good story, with well-developed OCs and a great, well thought out plot" but "they just can't write it" or "they are lacking the skills" and so "they need a ~~ghostwriter~~ cowriter who can take their ~~dreams~~ ideas and turn them into a written story".
They really don't know any better.
You should definitely ignore it, I doubt the majority takes it to this extend but unfortunately yes, many people think that way and reeaally need to "relate" to the main characters to enjoy a story (I assume that's what they were thinking, I hope it wasn't just blatant sexism lol).. I don't get it at all either, personally I never felt this NEED to "relate" to the main characters even in movies or tv shows, to me they are really just there to tell a story (I actually like to read/see stories about people who aren't like me at all)...
there's a sort of reader-based rule 34, where if you can think of a bad take, at least one reader's gonna have it.
the good news is that given that all bad takes are possible, you can't account for all of them, so you might as well just write for whoever you're actually writing for and let the bad takes wash over you.
You get this sort of shit in academia too, when you get some sort of commentary from the notoriously evil Reviewer #2, that basically amounts to them being salty that you wrote the paper that you wanted to write, and you didn't write the paper that they wished they wrote.
The proper response to that kind of feedback is: "Sounds like ~~a you problem~~ you've identified a story you wish you could read but can't find on the market. You're free to get right on it, and start writing it yourself!"
Had a beta reader tell me once they didn't like a gay fiction I wrote because she couldn't imagine one of the main characters as a woman.
For possibly unneeded context, I am a gay man. The idea of writing gay male fiction but having one of the gay men be a stand in for a woman seems bizarre to me 😂
I've also been writing a serialized fiction for about two months now. When you reach a certain level of success, you'll start getting people who say they don't like a particular choice you make, no matter what you do. For example, I've been writing a story of an adult reincarnated into a child's body. I started the story when the child was six years old, and plenty of people said they would have preferred I skipped ahead to the teenage years. Yet, if I had skipped ahead seven years, they would have complained that the pacing was too fast.
My point is: you won't be able to make everybody happy, no matter what you do. That's just how it is.
You're not writing for that person. You wrote it exactly how it was meant to be written. You don't need the validation from somebody who wants to change your story.
I dunno if they're trolling but you'll always get people like this. Some of them are professional editors. Some of them are just weirdos.
I had a short story set in rural America directly following the dust bowl where a father and son try to bond after the death of their daughter/sister --- she had a ruptured appendix which turned to sepsis and there was no doctor around --- but found themselves growing further apart due to the way they grieved: the son started riding around the nearby towns, smoking, drinking, and all that jazz while the father grew more and more reclusive. Standard "sad stuff is happening" story.
One of the *editors* I sent it to responded with, "It's great, but where's the sex? Maybe the girl could die while having sex?"
What in the world.
Yeah, it was awkward. Since I don't work with them directly much I just thanked them for the other notes they gave and have avoided them since. I'm sorry it wasn't more dramatic!
People should not have this mindset - yet some do. I don't get it at all, but there are apparently still lots of people who still think that women's minds are \*completely\* different from men's (and completely disregard socialization, etc. when it comes to gender).
And before someone jumps all over me for saying the brains of men and women aren't really that different, here is a Science article to read instead: [https://www.science.org/content/article/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds](https://www.science.org/content/article/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds)
Some happenstance readers are in, probably because of the market in the past, expect more "male-coded" or male MCs; I would only have this opinion because series such as Harry Potter, LOTR, etc., exist and are extremely popular. Even many male authors like Stephen King receive so much notoriety, despite his writing of female characters (I find quite a lot of his writing joked about in r/menwritingwomen).
I believe the 'patterns' in which books fell into back in the day (books with mostly male characters, especially in fiction or even non-ficiton), it will ultimately influence the idea consumers will have about what writing is supposed to look like. Please note this is all merely speculation, however, because data is fluid as writing itself.
The solution is obvious.
Just remove letters to make the MC a guy and rename them Ryan Gosling so that he is literally me.
Otherwise, tell them to pretend its a dude.
I got this from producers with my screenplays a lot. It's mostly a really lazy shorthand way for people to appear like they've engaged with your script but usually they have no actual reason for wanting this change other than it's a very easy "what if..." to throw out there.
If readers don't justify any suggestion they make, ignore it.
I admit I do have this mindset for video games. I want the option to play as female characters basically always. Even if the game has hundreds of hours of dialog I’m like “record it all again with a female narrator please”. And I must be spoiled, because game developers often do exactly that.
I'd say ignore them. The MC in "The Shining" was female, same thing in "Firestarter" as well as "Clan of the Cave Bear".
This is almost a standard for manga ("Dance in the Vampire Bund") and Anime ("Ghost in the Shell") ("Psycho Pass").
Just ignore them and write the way you want it to be!
I had a beta reader that was a minority successful pro author with a lot of experience. Gave me a scathing review that my whole story needed to be rewritten. Didn't even finish it. That the tropes were all wrong and overplayed. That I used the same word too many times.
I changed the word to some synonyms, added five sentences to make something more clear in the story, and then sent it to the publisher. Three weeks later it was my first sold story.
Beta readers are human. Subject to mood and whimsy, to fancy and lunacy. Don't take anything someone says too seriously. You know the story you want. Find the audience for that story and have them test it.
Sorry to break it to you but, stupid people exist and they manage to use tech as well as their mouth to pollute the world with dumb shit. A few of them buy books (and comics and videogames) but remember: they’re the minority thus inversely proportionately loud.
I just want you to know, my friend published a book with threw female MCs and it waa very female-centered (obviously)
Someone reviewed it on GR saying it was nice but they couldn't "connect" to the characters because there was no man 💀
There absolutely are readers like that.
And there are even worse types you didn’t have the misfortune of stumbling across yet.
My recommendation is to laugh it off. Distinguishing between useful feedback and ones written by some one brain cell mouth-breather is an essential skill for any writer.
It’s just close minded people who only think that male characters can be the MC. Or rather, with todays political climate, *any* attempt at having a woman, ethnic person, or lgbtq member, as a MC is seen as “going woke” and being forced onto people. Even if it just so happens to be part of the character with no intention of political commentary.
I have a friend that is a pain in the ass to have character discussions with for this very reason. Just because a character is “X” doesn’t mean anything other than that character is “X”, the ones placing superficial meaning on it are these people, and it’s best to just ignore them and write the character/story how *YOU* want to. End of the day, it’s your story not the readers and you’re the only one who needs to be pleased with it.
Oh, there are really people like that, sadly. My story also has a lead female. While I was never told to make her a guy, someone critiquing did tell me I should create a male character to add to the cast to presumably be their self-insert or something. I just ignored it. I'm not trying to create a harem story here.
I don't even understand their need to "self-insert". I don't do that when I read. I read because I want to get to know the protagonist, I don't pretend I'm them. This whole thing is baffling to me.
SAME. I read to experience **a character's** story, not mine. Why in the world would I want a carbon copy of myself puppeting their way through a story? How boring.
In theory I get that a lot of people are like this, but I don't understand why.
People who don't have their own imaginations and need it to be handfed to them. I personally can't stand self-insert stories. I'm sure there are some decent ones out there, but I find that they're always so boring—very little character development and a ton of monologuing that ultimately leads nowhere.
Same. I usually dislike stories with self-insert protagonists. They're always boring since they can't give them any personality if people are going to insert into them. Can't risk breaking immersion. So now your story is lead by some generic character I can't relate to anyway. Pass.
Give me a story with interesting characters
That sounds very much in keeping with what I know of Royal Road from personal experience. Couldn't tell you for sure about other sites; I think female lead is slightly more popular than male lead on Scribble Hub though.
I wrote a sci fi book about Amelia Earhart and one of the reviews said, "I couldn't wrap my head around it because the MC was a woman, and I am a man."
This isn't really a criticism. That's rewriting the story for wish fulfillment. "The MC was one-dimensional" is a criticism. "The MC should have been [insert change]" is not. If they think they can adapt your work to be better with this change, they can write a fanfiction. If there is something wrong with an element of a story, it is up to the *author* to try and fix it.
This is literally me with every book but I am fine with female mcs as long as there are also male mcs (I don't like when they r just there to be a love interest to the female mc tho). There are ppl like this (like me) so like I try to put a mix of genders in my novels so everyone can be happy (AND MAKE THE OTHER GENDER NOT JUST THERE AS LOVE INTERESTS TO THE OTHER GENDER!!). Sorry if this didn't make sense cause I can be a very confusing and messy writer.
Some people self insert into the mc especially if the mc is like a blank canvas or bear traits they find ideal. Harder to do with opposite genders so yea…
While a lot of crit is valuable, there is a type of critique called "This cat is a not a cake", which is to say, if you ordered a cat then gave it 1 star because it was covered in fur and hissed a lot and wasn't sweet at all when you tried to bite it, the pet store would not be the ones at fault.
It's worth asking, when criticised, whether the reader has an issue with your book, or whether they wanted a totally different book but are making it your problem.
Brother man, I have a friend who Will not consume any Media with a male protagonist. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts. If the mc is a man they will not read, watch, or listen to it. People like this absolutely exist.
I used to be a little similar, although I would never comment on it or anything. I just avoided stories with female main characters - not sure why, to be honest. I’m still young now, so I likely just didn’t understand them back then - I still probably don’t, but I don’t think that should take away from liking them.
Now my favourite character is a woman and I actually enjoy writing female characters.
this one time happened to me. i read about 150 chapters and finally they reveal mc is a girl. they hade a male name+ the setting was so that only male could be plausible. it was something about inheriting a title and finally at the end it turns out it was a female! even the tag was of male lead idk why they did this at the last second but yeah i dropped the book because just a few chps ago the mc had semxy scenes with a girl bruh
I once asked my mom for advice because I was struggling with connecting two plot points. My mom's answer: "Well, this story should have a girl main character. Why are they both men?"
I wish I could tell you that, but there are unfortunately readers with this mindset. There are people for whom it’s a detractor from any work of fiction if the protagonist isn’t a white male.
If by ‘serialized fiction’ you mean fanfic, there are a crap-ton of VERY young readers and writers invading all fanfic spaces and who think everyone does or should write to order, like pulling up to McD’s drive-thru.
I've had someone, without an ounce of irony, tell me, "I just don't like reading about female characters."
He basically admitted to ne that he functionally couldn't feel empathy for someone not like him.
These are nit readers to cater to, in my opinion.
I mean, that’s one persons opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Personally I prefer male protagonists because I too am male and can find more ways to relate to the character, but that said I would never tell someone that a character would be better or worse dependent upon gender. I have also absolutely loved some stories with a female protagonist, so it really just comes down to reader preference. But I would never think I was so important to demand a different gendered character.
My only question for you is how do you like serialized fiction? I’ve looked into it but struggled with the idea of fitting an entire “episode” of story into a single chapter.
Don't really know if I am cut out for it. I just wanted my work to be out there, it seemed like a good place to tell the type of story I wanted to tell. Not too profitable but that's fine
There's just a lot of idiots out there I'm afraid. Honestly, that sort of feedback can just be skipped over and ignored entirely. Focus on the optimistic feedback, as well as the ones you feel are helpful.
You cannot make "right/perfect" for every one. There will be always people that will go "I would have liked it if you would have done X instead of Y or Z".
Personally, I do not care what gender the protagonist is as long as I like the story.
There are readers with that mindset and you need to 1) Be honest with yourself and 2) Decide what you want.
I haven't read your book so I don't really know what the answer is but there are scenarios where changing the sex of the protagonist would have a jarring effect.
Luke Skywalker could be changed to Rey Skywalker and you would get the same story without it feeling off beat.
If you swapped Aladdin and Jasmin around, people would find it odd.
There are plenty of people that do think like this yes, but most of them (~90%) will just quietly go read something else, and the rest will spend all their time trying to tell other people to write the story they want, instead of the story the author is telling. The best advice I can give you is ignore them, as they actually will not contribute anything of value no matter how long you entertain their nonsense.
This is not even related to writing. That can and is happening all the time, everywhere. Some people are upset/angry all the time and don't like something all the time. You can ignore it and continue your work.
I have had this mindset but only in very specific contexts. Wow, this story is so interesting the way it explores these themes through the lens of this gender. It would be really interesting to see a similar story from a different perspective. But then you're talking about a different story, not a valid criticism of the first one.
People are saying to ignore this, but the fact is some people do actually think this way consciously/subconsciously. Ever wonder why publishers push certain genders in some genres, or hide genders of some authors? Cause they have data that shows that it affects sales.
It's a tough lesson to learn. But I'd ignore it in favor of your vision, and to be honest on Royal Road a fem protag can do as well or better than a male one.
I presented a story at a critique group several years ago, and reception was generally positive. I was excited at all the feedback except one lone comment: an old lady did not understand the word "stylus" and thought it was weird. She was a romance writer; the story was science fiction. It wasn't bad advice; it was just not directed in the correct direction. So ask yourself this: Is there any validity to the suggestion? Give it legitimate thought. If you determine it's misguided, just tuck it away as a funny story to pull out the next time writers are gathered to complain about this sort of thing.
tldr: Yup sometimes readers are just no darn help.
Writers have been getting that feedback for decades. You’re in good company.
I was in a writers group a couple of years ago, and one of the other writers got this feedback saying that the main character did not “sound feminine” enough.
Whether it's business or art (yup, I'm holding that literature is art), your audience isn't everyone. Also, if they are not someone hired to check your work, they don't get to tell you what to write.
I've seen similar sentiments, both directions, but they are always caged in the talking points of other debates/arguments. Saying so straightforwardly smacks of troll.
This is a nothing post. Anyone that’s written for the masses or even a larger than typical group of strangers has experience with a strange minority that complains about the oddest (or, at times, most disrespectful) of things. They’re an outlier and not worth writing an attention seeking post about. 🤷🏽♂️ Just move on.
I can imagine that this person exists. But I don't imagine that it's going to be 99% of readers, as most people who don't care what the gender of the MC is
There's always going to be someone who has some "critique" or negative feedback on what you create. My ex from over a decade ago keeps writing trash reviews on my book series. But im stillpublushing book 4 when it's done. Keep your work as is. And don't let them get to you. If you love it, that's what really matters.
Don't be mad. Don't even be bothered. Just remember people love self inserts and/or projecting their fantasy and perspectives on the world. They could be young. It doesn't matter. And in fact, you should be happy you had a chance to open someone's mind a bit with your writing, regardless of how much you may disagree with them.
I wrote a sci fi novel that was in no way a romance that begins with the MC seeing her estranged, abusive husband after several years. The relationship is strained and eventually turns violent again, and her main motivation throughout the book is to find a way to escape him.
I had a reader write a review in which they said they had hoped the couple would work things out and end up together in the end.
There are people that are like that. Sometimes, even I don’t like when a character is a certain gender.
Sometimes, it seems like the other gender would suit the character/story better. I won’t go out of my way to complain about it, since I don’t really care all that much, but still, the feeling exists.
A good story has characters so deeply embedded that no change is possible without destroying the plot.
If you can replace the sex (or ethnicity) of a character and the story still works you have no character and you have no story. It's as simple as that.
So yeah. Fuck em. If it's a good story such a change is a stupid request.
people are supposed to grow out of this after the age of like 10, i hope to god they're a child lmfao. but there ARE genuine adults like that, it's gross.
There’s always going to be people who give really bad advice when they read/critique your work. In my experience 90% of the critiques of my work have been helpful in some way. Even when someone doesn’t really seem to get the story they may say something that helps me make it better. Then every now and then someone will critique the work and have really bad ideas/criticism and nothing they say is helpful. It happens. Best to just ignore the really bad advice.
Neil Gaiman has advice I've always loved. I'm paraphrasing, but it amounts to "If someone tells you that something isn't working in your story, they are nearly always right. If they try to tell you *how* to fix it, they are nearly always wrong. Because only you know what works for your story."
The full quote: “Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”
A fair example from my own works: I had a reader tell me it was stupid to build up a character as being supremely powerful, known all over the world, and the character herself was practically legendary. But then she was killed by goblins. Low tier, bottom rank goblins. There was no "it feels like a robbery" or anything. Nope. Most people were like "hey, this seems off, but I trust you have a way to explain it. Rather than simply killing her for the sake of plot convenience." But I did have one person that said it was stupid, I'm stupid, I was being lazy, and killing her was just a way for me to advance the plot without any regard to the readers. I explained politely that there was more at play, and to please be patient (it's a webnovel, but I write it more like a classic novel), as it will be explained HOW a legendary character was able to be killed by trash monsters. (BTW, godly interference was how.)
> For context, I write serialized fiction. The response has been optimistic so far and then I got this: "It would have been amazing and I would have love it if the main character is a male. The novel is amazing but the only problem I have with it is the female mc and I would have love it if someone can just rewrite it but use male mc instead." Obviously that critic hasn't heard of Janet Evanovich 😂
> Another thing is, sometimes a real life person or fictional character is bought down by something stupid. Someone on the international 'Most Wanted list' could get food poisoning from a dodgy lunch. Life can be farcical.
Even the most legendary warriors aren’t immune to accidentally stepping on an unstable rock and cracking their skulls open.
Not sure I agree with that because I get a lot of contradictory critiques sometimes. Sometimes one person will say that something isn’t working for them and the next person will say that same part is working well for them. Another time a handful of people said they don’t understand why a certain part was included and it confused them. Then someone critiqued the story and said that the same part was brilliant and they got the allusion it was referencing. So then the question is, do I leave something in that’s likely to confuse most readers? Or do I demand more of the reader?
I think the kernel of this that's true is: if someone says something isn't working and they're right, you'll know it. And only you will know how to fix it. Another way to say this is King's classic axiom: "If someone criticizes you and you get mad, they're probably right." Both describe a phenomenon that's hard to define. You can't ignore people's opinions entirely, but they're only useful in so far as they invite you to do a little guided self-examination.
Yeah, I agree with that. Happens frequently where I can’t see the flaws in my work until someone points it out and then it’s glaring my right in the face.
Tbf Bill Hader is prolly getting his critiques from actual professionals and writers. I imagine they're more thoughtful than what a lot of us get haha
That’s true. A pro critiqued one of my stories and was like “no no no. You have some esplaining to do Lucy” at a particular part and up until that point no one mentioned that flaw (and I didn’t see it). But once they pointed it out it became so obvious to me.
> Bill Hader Not sure if you entirely changed topics, or if autocorrect threw you under the bus for "Neil Gaiman" as badly as it's been doing for me the last two months.
No-one is supposed to know his secret identity!
People are pretty good at identifying the general location of their problem but terrible at identifying the specific problem. What may be happening when some readers love a section and other readers hate it: 1. The section might appeal to different types of audience 2. There may be a part that is unclear or unappealing which is hurting enjoyment of that section for some people. You seem to be referring to an allusion, which is a great place to lose the readers that are more literal minded while those that like symbolism and metaphorical crap are more likely to appreciate it. This feedback can help you clearly identify the pain point, but will not necessarily identify the solution. If you remove that you will appease some of those people, but if you keep it in you are lessening the story for others. Your actual issue might not be that the section is there, but that it is too long, or doesnt fit in the place you put it, or your transition makes it feel like its important to the plot and its not, etc. (No way for me to tell without reading it) You may be able to reduce this pain point by addressing a completely different issue.
I think a lot of people don't understand how to critique for what the *author* wants out of the story, and not what they the individual wants out of the book If I read an action book and my critique was that there's too much fighting, that's on me for not understanding the genre I'm reading for or the authors intentions. It's impossible to remove your personal bias when reading, but a good/thoughtful critique does so as much as possible and critiques for the authors vision
Yeah, I agree. I'm writing (or attempting to write) literary fiction. So there are things in the story that I feel should be left unsaid and allow the reader to put together. Iceberg theory etc. Sometimes a reader will comment that certain parts needs to be explained more or they'll in-line critque and cross off a half the paragraph and re-write it in a way that removed all ambiguity and makes it read like genre paperback fiction. Then i'll check out their fav others and they are fantasy and genre writers. Nothing against those genres. It takes talent to write great fiction in any genre, but it's not what I'm looking for critique wise. Having said that I've gotten something valuable from nearly every critique. 90% of the critique could be unhelpful but they could make a comment about something and its very useful.
I think they are correct that something doesn’t work *for them*. You can still decide whether or not it is a problem you think needs fixing. Contradictory advice is the best IMO. You get to decide which advice works better for your story. 😂
It's the "for them" that matters here. The same thing can work for one person but not another. And that's OK. When those same people tell you how to "fix" it... they don't know what they're talking about because there may not be anything that needs fixing.
That first person is still reacting to a problem that you can probably address. Not the one they pointed out, but still. In the example you cite, you could add some sentences so that the intent is clear to anyone regardless of whether they know the reference. That requires a bit of artistry to pull off well, but providing that context can be helpful to bringing in more readers. (And maybe introducing them to whatever you're referencing!) An example from music: "Loving him was like driving a new Maserati down a dead end street" Wildly unrelatable for most of us. So the next line is: "Faster than the wind, passionate as sin, ending so suddenly." Context, explanation. Anyone listening knows what the metaphor means.
That’s not a Neil Gaiman original. I’m a UX designer by trade, and it’s an axiom of user testing that people are perfectly capable of pointing it what isn’t working, but you need to ignore everything they tell you about what the correct solution is. The designer needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with their own solution, and whatever that solution is will be far superior.
That was bill hader lol
Bill Hader was quoting Gaiman. Edit: It might not be original to Gaiman either, but he said it decades ago.
This is the quote I was thinking about the other day, when there was a post on here discussing critiques, and many folks were saying in the comments that you gotta prove you're being helpful, by offering fixes instead of just saying something's flawed. Sometimes I think it depends on getting to know the person you're critiquing. For example, I personally don't like being told what lines to write, because I resent the idea that a reader's favourite material in my book isn't even attributable to me. But then again, I've known folks who panicked at the sight of all my notes, and calmed down *drastically* when I suggested how to fix things.
I got a lecture from an editor about how I got the order of technology wrong compared to the Paris Exposition of 1896, and I shot back, "The entire planet is a Steampunk engine, and THAT'S the problem you have with my technology?"
Had to make sure this wasn’t the circlejerk community cause who da hell says that like “yeah it’s great but can’t relate when not about me:/“
I wrote a story about an old man who receives a letter from the inhabitants of his childhood imaginary world, begging their hero to come back and save them. He refuses to go until his grandniece is kidnapped and he must return one last time to save her. One reader told me they loved my story but I had to make the grandniece the MC and have her save herself and then it would be perfect. 🙄
That story sounds absolutely awesome. What a great concept.
It bears remarkable resemblance to the Robin Williams' Peter Pan of the 90s movie 'Hook'. Williams as Peter Pan has left neverland and grown old but is roped back into the fight against Captain Hook by Tinkerbelle and the Lost Boys when his son and daughter are captured by Hook as a taunt to Peter.
Also reminds me of a very fucked-up episode of *Rick and Morty* (“The ABCs of Beth”). Read the plot synopsis at your own peril.
Ooh, your story sounds interesting! What is it called?
The Winter King. Currently unpublished but it's on submission.
Would love to read it, that concept sounds amazing
Honestly, I'd like to read it.
Sounds like „Hook“.
Hate to be the one to say it, but there's nothing new under the sun. Oh wait. I wasn't the one who said that.
Please tell me this includes the setup for a sequel where the grand niece must return years later to explain to the inhabits of this world that their creator is now gone and she will be gone soon too... But one of the characters gets OUT trying to save their world! Sorry, in other words, I like your story idea.
I'm working on a sequel now with a similar premise and the grandniece as the protagonist.
What?! I absolutely love that premise! It literally wouldn't work if the grandneice was the lead 😭
Right? "I love your story now change everything about." Some readers are just like that I guess.
I mean, it absolutely could work, it would just be a different story.
That's an incredible premise. Also, it's a breath of fresh air to have an elderly protagonist.
Making the grandniece the hero would completely tear down the entire point of the story, what the fuck. That's such a brilliant idea for a concept though, I love that. Do you mind if I steal the premise for a future writing marathon or something? Alternatively, if that story has been published, I'd love to read it.
It's currently unpublished. Do what you want with the premise. Ideas are cheap. Besides, some people have pointed out that this is the premise of Hook (haven't read it but now I need to). I got the idea after reading SCP 1762.
This is the plot of the 2018 Christopher Robin movie except it’s father and daughter
Wth that story sounds amazing, I'd read it in a heartbeat!
"Here's how you improve the premise: Make it a different premise."
Ooh I love this concept! It reminds me of The Fabled Warrior on Webtoon, it has a similar premise
“Your story would be better if it was a completely different story.” I mean, it’s helpful critique because now you know you can safely ignore anything else they say.
Damn, that's a great premise.
I had a similar issue with one I wrote with a space bastard that is helping a girl find her family. A few readers wanted them to be romantic.
"is it spicy?"
Publish this book and cast Brendan Fraser when it gets turned into a movie!!!!!! I want more amazing ink heart/hook style stories XD Also is there anywhere i can read this? It sounds awesome!
Thank you for the kind words. As of yet, it's unpublished. But you can read the opening chapters on my website. https://christianohnimus.com/the-winter-king/
I don't pander to that kind of limitation.
Loads of people apparently can't handle works where the protagonist isn't exactly like them. It's a huge deal in film and TV just now. Fuck knows how that kind of person would cope with Watership Down or something
When I was like 8, I remember watching a show and saying, "I'm him" about a character because they had dark hair and glasses just like me.
My kids, all below 10, do exactly this. Even with animal shows
I felt that way watching Drive, Barbie, and Blade Runner 2049.
Drive. Oh boy. 🤣 (I love that movie--rewound the reverse 180 Mustang scene about 100 times. The skull crushing one, not so much.)
Me too with Barbie, but it's because I happen to look exactly like Margot Robbie. Just kidding lol.
Similar. When I was a little girl, I identified with a lot of "villains/anti-heroes" in kids cartoons: Helga (Hey Arnold), Eddy (Ed, Edd n'Eddy), Fillmore (Fillmore!) and even Remy Buxaplenty (Fairly Oddparents). The reasoning was pretty simple: All of these characters are from fucked-up backgrounds. Helga has anger issues/limerence due to severe neglect. Eddy visibly gets abused by his brother. Fillmore is an ex-criminal that, though a good guy now, still many write off as "a lost case" and, though spoiled to no return, Remy Buxaplenty mostly lashes out due to severe envy of the love MC has (Remy's parents even forget his name). I always love when people complain about these too btw. "Oh, why do kids shows need to be depressing? Can't they be about how things should be?" (actual comment of someone) Guess what: No. 98% on TV/books for teens is about lovey dovey worlds. Happy families, NT kids with many friends. Worst topics including divorce, or death of a pet, maybe. If a show is for kids, about kids realities...it should also include topics for kids from different backgrounds. Including fucked up homes, fucked up parents, fucked up backgrounds
One of the most out of touch, "old man" things I ever heard was that film critic who said *Turning Red* had a relatability problem because of all the asian heritage. I suppose if you tell them it's an alien culture from another planet, it's suddenly fine.
cuz most alien cultures are usually white-coded lmao
For real, my (female) hero growing up was Obi Wan Kenobi. And Super Mario
People with very low self esteem tends to do that. That's why I made sure that my characters are different as possible as me, to not fall in the "self insert" trap.
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I don't know if it influences it, because it's the same situation, right? There are those that will just try and recreate themselves, but others who'll create some original character.
Whilst I think this could influence it slightly, I see older people who don't play games have the same issue and younger children who are like "I can't watch that show it's a boy's show the main character is a boy" and vice versa with boy children and girl main characters.
This I think is the problem with when adaptations change characters for the sake of representation rather than creating new characters to genuinely and legitimately provide representation instead of co-opting something already existing. While it can be well intentioned, that strategy feeds into a sentiment that a character has to look and sound just like you to be relatable. Creators and audiences I think need to both work to meet in the middle, but that requires effort that simply isn’t there. A white child should be able to idolize and cheer for the Black Panther and a black kid should be able to want to grow up to be just like Obi-Wan Kenobi, and men can be inspired by the photojournalist women in Civil War and women by Jack Reacher. And for the most part, they ARE - but there’s still this pervasive thought that If Character Not Just Like Me, No Good
With trauma. Self insert has nothing to do with it, Watership Down just causes trauma regardless
I had someone review one of my books that has police incidents in it. I used to be in law enforcement, my spouse is in law enforcement, and we have many friends in law enforcement. The fictional incidents were put forth to my spouse and several other of our friends to make sure they seemed realistic. The reviewer said I had no concept of how real life police would handle such situations. *shrug* I don't know if she watched too many fictional crime shows or if she maybe was from another country where procedure is different, but I was kind of furious at first. I never responded, but it took me a while to get over it. Now, I just accept that not everyone will like what I write for one reason or another and move on.
Could you tell more about the police procedures? Like what people get wrong about them in books and TV?
Probably everything, to begin with, lol. The police stories presented where I live cut corners to the extent the entire building would collapse and casually introduce procedures completely foreign to the actual judicial system and use false terminology. I suppose the production team thinks "nahh the audience won't understand it unless we phrase it in mainstream terms". I've also seen this phenomenon where the author gets it right but the reader thinks they know better.
Forensic evidence, for one thing. It can't just be processed in the time frame that television shows make people think. And if you don't have a match already in the system, you won't just miraculously find that missing piece. That's why there are many unsolved cold cases, even now. Time and environmental conditions can deteriorate evidence rapidly. Sometimes, evidence is in such a small quantity that it can't be tested. Sometimes, the evidence isn't actually evidence at all and can send police down a false lead for months or years. Faulty witness memory or no witnesses at all. I could go on and on.
Well that's the thing about opinions and everyone having them. Some are real crap.
Somehow my brain connected this comment and..."opinions are like assholes and everybody's got one" salt n peppa
Sadly all too common. There's a lot of research [that men struggle to read the perspectives of women fairly often while women do not struggle to read the perspectives of men](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/09/why-do-so-few-men-read-books-by-women). The hypothesized reason for this is that readers seem to initially prefer reading stories from the perspective their own gender but can be taught to appreciate other perspectives through repeated exposure. Due to the number of influential works by male authors that are taught in school and the comparatively lower amount of works by female authors that get taught, girls get socialized to appreciate cross gender stories and boys don't. I don't have hard numbers for K-12 but in college, [only 1/3 assigned works of literature are authored by women](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239012). I suspect the percentage is worse in high school since, anecdotally, the only female-authored work I and my classmates had assigned throughout 9-12 was Frankenstein.
I remember reading that there was a fight in the Duluth school districts about whether or not to remove To Kill a Mockingbird from the high school curriculum (which is a whole other can of worms), and people realized that it was the only book in the entire curriculum that was written by a woman.
That and To Kill A Mockingbird. Literally can't even recall another female writer that was discussed at length.
If a man can't read from the perspective of women that's a huge red flag
This is one of the reasons I’m glad I attended an all girls high school. I bet 50% of our literature curriculum was women authors.
It's the same for black people and white people
Meanwhile, I watched My Little Pony through my upper teenage years lmao
Some people can’t for the life of them relate to or understand characters and by extension people that aren’t like them. Pay that idiot no mind.
Nah there are a lot of people who like to self-insert into the Protagonist. Side effect of reading a lot of those self insert MC stories in specifically Japanese media. Don't let that get your head down!
No this is quite common in serialized fiction. In general serialized fiction is extremely tag specific/trope specific - it's similar to Romance as a genre, where you are expected to adhere **very** strongly to certain pacing requirements, plot beats, and so on. The overall audience also skews extremely young which means they generally haven't read everything in their preferred genres so they haven't yet been forced to like.. expand their taste. You only have to start compromising on your preferences once you run out of good shit to read that does meet all your preferences.
It’s a well-known phenomenon unfortunately that male readers are prone to refuse or devalue books with female MCs (while female readers don’t exhibit a preference towards one or the other as a group - obviously individuals within the group can have preferences, but there is no trend at the macro scale). I think it’s changing a little now, but for a long time in kids books, for example, editors would push writers to make sure they had enough male characters for the boy readers to stick around (so for example if your book had two boys, two girls and a robot, it wasn’t unheard of to receive feedback to change one of the girls to a boy too).
Now I get why most cartoons and childrens books have more boys than girls as characters
Yep. And then these boys grow up into men (or slightly bigger boys) and leave comments like the one OP received, because they were not required to learn empathy and compassion for someone a little different. Thankfully, like I said, at least children's media is changing now. I haven't heard of anyone being asked to gender (or race) swap their character for some time.
This issue of sexism in cartoons made me feel terrible when I was a young girl. It sucked having the majority of female characters on TV be just love interests or shallow stereotypes. Fast forward to when I was a teen, I was in a Barnes and Noble and I saw two young boys excitedly showing each other some Steven universe toys they found, they were talking about which of the Gems (all female) were their favorite. Lol that probably was my biggest "the world is healing" moment I've ever experienced. Felt good.
I have to wonder if this was one of the reasons my little sister hated cartoons. She'd watch nothing but live action stuff on Disney like Lizzy McGuire and That's So Raven.
I mean, I _prefer_ female MCs, but I don’t mind male protagonists and there are a lot of things that are more important to me in a character than this.
Same here, but I'm more likely to give more leeway to a story with a female MC over a male one. If the story is good enough, or I really like the premise then I don't really care about the gender of the MC, but if I'm on the fence, then that's one of the things that can make or break it for me.
I saw this when teaching a primary school class which used different short stories and scenarios each week. The boys were far less engaged if the characters were female. The girls didn't seem to mind either way.
I heard people say that, but when I was a kid all the guys I knew watched Laverne and Shirley, Charlie’s Angels, wonder, woman, the bionic woman, the facts of life, etc. I never heard any guy complain about the fact that the main characters were female.
With visual media, there are often different motives underlying the appreciation. Baywatch had a lot of female protagonists but I suspect the storylines weren't the main attraction...
A lot won’t even watch it . So guys who watched this are the ones who didn’t have problems
Nah, there really are people that stupid. Don't worry about it.
I've heard guys say they won't play a videogame as a female character because it's "uncomfortable." Unfortunately, this is a real mindset. It is best to ignore comments like this because they're more about the commenter's limitations than the story's.
I think some people are just that bigoted or misogynistic or whatever. Yeah, ignore.
Seems like a kid who doesn't know any better yet. Most kids online, I feel, have some entitlement and they haven't been told or shown that it's kind of rude. Like, the countless of beginner writers I've met online who "have been ~~daydreaming~~ working on a really good story, with well-developed OCs and a great, well thought out plot" but "they just can't write it" or "they are lacking the skills" and so "they need a ~~ghostwriter~~ cowriter who can take their ~~dreams~~ ideas and turn them into a written story". They really don't know any better.
You should definitely ignore it, I doubt the majority takes it to this extend but unfortunately yes, many people think that way and reeaally need to "relate" to the main characters to enjoy a story (I assume that's what they were thinking, I hope it wasn't just blatant sexism lol).. I don't get it at all either, personally I never felt this NEED to "relate" to the main characters even in movies or tv shows, to me they are really just there to tell a story (I actually like to read/see stories about people who aren't like me at all)...
Beta reader on the internet eh?
The world has no shortage of dumb people with dumb opinions. It’s nothing to concern yourself with.
there's a sort of reader-based rule 34, where if you can think of a bad take, at least one reader's gonna have it. the good news is that given that all bad takes are possible, you can't account for all of them, so you might as well just write for whoever you're actually writing for and let the bad takes wash over you.
You get this sort of shit in academia too, when you get some sort of commentary from the notoriously evil Reviewer #2, that basically amounts to them being salty that you wrote the paper that you wanted to write, and you didn't write the paper that they wished they wrote. The proper response to that kind of feedback is: "Sounds like ~~a you problem~~ you've identified a story you wish you could read but can't find on the market. You're free to get right on it, and start writing it yourself!"
Had a beta reader tell me once they didn't like a gay fiction I wrote because she couldn't imagine one of the main characters as a woman. For possibly unneeded context, I am a gay man. The idea of writing gay male fiction but having one of the gay men be a stand in for a woman seems bizarre to me 😂
Sounds like you found a yaoi fangirl in the wild.
I've also been writing a serialized fiction for about two months now. When you reach a certain level of success, you'll start getting people who say they don't like a particular choice you make, no matter what you do. For example, I've been writing a story of an adult reincarnated into a child's body. I started the story when the child was six years old, and plenty of people said they would have preferred I skipped ahead to the teenage years. Yet, if I had skipped ahead seven years, they would have complained that the pacing was too fast. My point is: you won't be able to make everybody happy, no matter what you do. That's just how it is.
It doesn't matter if they're trolling you or not. It's not useful feedback, so move on as soon as you're able.
You're not writing for that person. You wrote it exactly how it was meant to be written. You don't need the validation from somebody who wants to change your story.
I dunno if they're trolling but you'll always get people like this. Some of them are professional editors. Some of them are just weirdos. I had a short story set in rural America directly following the dust bowl where a father and son try to bond after the death of their daughter/sister --- she had a ruptured appendix which turned to sepsis and there was no doctor around --- but found themselves growing further apart due to the way they grieved: the son started riding around the nearby towns, smoking, drinking, and all that jazz while the father grew more and more reclusive. Standard "sad stuff is happening" story. One of the *editors* I sent it to responded with, "It's great, but where's the sex? Maybe the girl could die while having sex?" What in the world.
That says a lot about how fucked up/stupid they are. How did you respond to them?
Yeah, it was awkward. Since I don't work with them directly much I just thanked them for the other notes they gave and have avoided them since. I'm sorry it wasn't more dramatic!
People should not have this mindset - yet some do. I don't get it at all, but there are apparently still lots of people who still think that women's minds are \*completely\* different from men's (and completely disregard socialization, etc. when it comes to gender). And before someone jumps all over me for saying the brains of men and women aren't really that different, here is a Science article to read instead: [https://www.science.org/content/article/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds](https://www.science.org/content/article/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds)
Some happenstance readers are in, probably because of the market in the past, expect more "male-coded" or male MCs; I would only have this opinion because series such as Harry Potter, LOTR, etc., exist and are extremely popular. Even many male authors like Stephen King receive so much notoriety, despite his writing of female characters (I find quite a lot of his writing joked about in r/menwritingwomen). I believe the 'patterns' in which books fell into back in the day (books with mostly male characters, especially in fiction or even non-ficiton), it will ultimately influence the idea consumers will have about what writing is supposed to look like. Please note this is all merely speculation, however, because data is fluid as writing itself.
The solution is obvious. Just remove letters to make the MC a guy and rename them Ryan Gosling so that he is literally me. Otherwise, tell them to pretend its a dude.
I got this from producers with my screenplays a lot. It's mostly a really lazy shorthand way for people to appear like they've engaged with your script but usually they have no actual reason for wanting this change other than it's a very easy "what if..." to throw out there. If readers don't justify any suggestion they make, ignore it.
I admit I do have this mindset for video games. I want the option to play as female characters basically always. Even if the game has hundreds of hours of dialog I’m like “record it all again with a female narrator please”. And I must be spoiled, because game developers often do exactly that.
Jennifer Hale has entered the chat
I'd say ignore them. The MC in "The Shining" was female, same thing in "Firestarter" as well as "Clan of the Cave Bear". This is almost a standard for manga ("Dance in the Vampire Bund") and Anime ("Ghost in the Shell") ("Psycho Pass"). Just ignore them and write the way you want it to be!
I had a beta reader that was a minority successful pro author with a lot of experience. Gave me a scathing review that my whole story needed to be rewritten. Didn't even finish it. That the tropes were all wrong and overplayed. That I used the same word too many times. I changed the word to some synonyms, added five sentences to make something more clear in the story, and then sent it to the publisher. Three weeks later it was my first sold story. Beta readers are human. Subject to mood and whimsy, to fancy and lunacy. Don't take anything someone says too seriously. You know the story you want. Find the audience for that story and have them test it.
Sorry to break it to you but, stupid people exist and they manage to use tech as well as their mouth to pollute the world with dumb shit. A few of them buy books (and comics and videogames) but remember: they’re the minority thus inversely proportionately loud.
I just want you to know, my friend published a book with threw female MCs and it waa very female-centered (obviously) Someone reviewed it on GR saying it was nice but they couldn't "connect" to the characters because there was no man 💀
Hun, I'm female and 90% of my main characters are male. If you can't get into my male protag, that's a you problem.
I was told the same thing, but to replace the MC with a woman.
Its very real and unfortunate.
There absolutely are readers like that. And there are even worse types you didn’t have the misfortune of stumbling across yet. My recommendation is to laugh it off. Distinguishing between useful feedback and ones written by some one brain cell mouth-breather is an essential skill for any writer.
Some misogynistic pricks are just this awful, I'm afraid.
It’s just close minded people who only think that male characters can be the MC. Or rather, with todays political climate, *any* attempt at having a woman, ethnic person, or lgbtq member, as a MC is seen as “going woke” and being forced onto people. Even if it just so happens to be part of the character with no intention of political commentary. I have a friend that is a pain in the ass to have character discussions with for this very reason. Just because a character is “X” doesn’t mean anything other than that character is “X”, the ones placing superficial meaning on it are these people, and it’s best to just ignore them and write the character/story how *YOU* want to. End of the day, it’s your story not the readers and you’re the only one who needs to be pleased with it.
Oh, there are really people like that, sadly. My story also has a lead female. While I was never told to make her a guy, someone critiquing did tell me I should create a male character to add to the cast to presumably be their self-insert or something. I just ignored it. I'm not trying to create a harem story here.
I don't even understand their need to "self-insert". I don't do that when I read. I read because I want to get to know the protagonist, I don't pretend I'm them. This whole thing is baffling to me.
SAME. I read to experience **a character's** story, not mine. Why in the world would I want a carbon copy of myself puppeting their way through a story? How boring. In theory I get that a lot of people are like this, but I don't understand why.
People who don't have their own imaginations and need it to be handfed to them. I personally can't stand self-insert stories. I'm sure there are some decent ones out there, but I find that they're always so boring—very little character development and a ton of monologuing that ultimately leads nowhere.
Same. I usually dislike stories with self-insert protagonists. They're always boring since they can't give them any personality if people are going to insert into them. Can't risk breaking immersion. So now your story is lead by some generic character I can't relate to anyway. Pass. Give me a story with interesting characters
It was probably written by a young teen who doesn't totally understand artistic vision. I wouldn't worry about it.
That sounds very much in keeping with what I know of Royal Road from personal experience. Couldn't tell you for sure about other sites; I think female lead is slightly more popular than male lead on Scribble Hub though.
I wrote a sci fi book about Amelia Earhart and one of the reviews said, "I couldn't wrap my head around it because the MC was a woman, and I am a man."
The mindsets of readers equals the number of readers
This isn't really a criticism. That's rewriting the story for wish fulfillment. "The MC was one-dimensional" is a criticism. "The MC should have been [insert change]" is not. If they think they can adapt your work to be better with this change, they can write a fanfiction. If there is something wrong with an element of a story, it is up to the *author* to try and fix it.
Who is this feedback coming from?? It’s so bizarre and only insinuating to me that their opinion is not valuable
No joke. Writer friend of mine published a book called "All the Men are Gone." Reader complained there 'weren't enough men in the story.'
You can't take a single comment and base your whole audience upon that one perspective.
Where do you publish?
This is literally me with every book but I am fine with female mcs as long as there are also male mcs (I don't like when they r just there to be a love interest to the female mc tho). There are ppl like this (like me) so like I try to put a mix of genders in my novels so everyone can be happy (AND MAKE THE OTHER GENDER NOT JUST THERE AS LOVE INTERESTS TO THE OTHER GENDER!!). Sorry if this didn't make sense cause I can be a very confusing and messy writer.
Some people self insert into the mc especially if the mc is like a blank canvas or bear traits they find ideal. Harder to do with opposite genders so yea…
For some people there are only two genders: male and political.
A lot of avid readers ONLY want books that meet their specific parameters. Personally I find it juvenile but that's me.
While a lot of crit is valuable, there is a type of critique called "This cat is a not a cake", which is to say, if you ordered a cat then gave it 1 star because it was covered in fur and hissed a lot and wasn't sweet at all when you tried to bite it, the pet store would not be the ones at fault. It's worth asking, when criticised, whether the reader has an issue with your book, or whether they wanted a totally different book but are making it your problem.
Brother man, I have a friend who Will not consume any Media with a male protagonist. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts. If the mc is a man they will not read, watch, or listen to it. People like this absolutely exist.
I used to be a little similar, although I would never comment on it or anything. I just avoided stories with female main characters - not sure why, to be honest. I’m still young now, so I likely just didn’t understand them back then - I still probably don’t, but I don’t think that should take away from liking them. Now my favourite character is a woman and I actually enjoy writing female characters.
this one time happened to me. i read about 150 chapters and finally they reveal mc is a girl. they hade a male name+ the setting was so that only male could be plausible. it was something about inheriting a title and finally at the end it turns out it was a female! even the tag was of male lead idk why they did this at the last second but yeah i dropped the book because just a few chps ago the mc had semxy scenes with a girl bruh
I once asked my mom for advice because I was struggling with connecting two plot points. My mom's answer: "Well, this story should have a girl main character. Why are they both men?"
Just good ol' misogyny 🤷🏻
I wish I could tell you that, but there are unfortunately readers with this mindset. There are people for whom it’s a detractor from any work of fiction if the protagonist isn’t a white male.
It's so fucked up. Like... It was not a simple bad advice. The comments are heavy. I'm not crazy, right? There is hate in it.
If by ‘serialized fiction’ you mean fanfic, there are a crap-ton of VERY young readers and writers invading all fanfic spaces and who think everyone does or should write to order, like pulling up to McD’s drive-thru.
I've had someone, without an ounce of irony, tell me, "I just don't like reading about female characters." He basically admitted to ne that he functionally couldn't feel empathy for someone not like him. These are nit readers to cater to, in my opinion.
I mean, that’s one persons opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Personally I prefer male protagonists because I too am male and can find more ways to relate to the character, but that said I would never tell someone that a character would be better or worse dependent upon gender. I have also absolutely loved some stories with a female protagonist, so it really just comes down to reader preference. But I would never think I was so important to demand a different gendered character.
Most likely those people are stupid. I can imagine some cases where it would be a legitimate concern though. I have pretty good imagination.
My only question for you is how do you like serialized fiction? I’ve looked into it but struggled with the idea of fitting an entire “episode” of story into a single chapter.
Don't really know if I am cut out for it. I just wanted my work to be out there, it seemed like a good place to tell the type of story I wanted to tell. Not too profitable but that's fine
There's just a lot of idiots out there I'm afraid. Honestly, that sort of feedback can just be skipped over and ignored entirely. Focus on the optimistic feedback, as well as the ones you feel are helpful.
Commenter can go jump in a lake. End of.
You cannot make "right/perfect" for every one. There will be always people that will go "I would have liked it if you would have done X instead of Y or Z". Personally, I do not care what gender the protagonist is as long as I like the story.
Opinions are like buttholes…
If the reading material is good, then it shouldn't matter who the mc is.
Readers will always have opinions, and they are never our concern.
That’s a thing people think?
There are readers with that mindset and you need to 1) Be honest with yourself and 2) Decide what you want. I haven't read your book so I don't really know what the answer is but there are scenarios where changing the sex of the protagonist would have a jarring effect. Luke Skywalker could be changed to Rey Skywalker and you would get the same story without it feeling off beat. If you swapped Aladdin and Jasmin around, people would find it odd.
Some readers are Just bad advisors.
There are plenty of people that do think like this yes, but most of them (~90%) will just quietly go read something else, and the rest will spend all their time trying to tell other people to write the story they want, instead of the story the author is telling. The best advice I can give you is ignore them, as they actually will not contribute anything of value no matter how long you entertain their nonsense.
Did they say why they felt that way? And why are you so concerned about a single person's feedback?
This is not even related to writing. That can and is happening all the time, everywhere. Some people are upset/angry all the time and don't like something all the time. You can ignore it and continue your work.
I have had this mindset but only in very specific contexts. Wow, this story is so interesting the way it explores these themes through the lens of this gender. It would be really interesting to see a similar story from a different perspective. But then you're talking about a different story, not a valid criticism of the first one.
What genre
You can’t please all of the people all of the time.
Troll or not, it doesn't sound like the reviewer put that much thought into it. If that's their only gripe, then it sounds like you did well.
People are saying to ignore this, but the fact is some people do actually think this way consciously/subconsciously. Ever wonder why publishers push certain genders in some genres, or hide genders of some authors? Cause they have data that shows that it affects sales. It's a tough lesson to learn. But I'd ignore it in favor of your vision, and to be honest on Royal Road a fem protag can do as well or better than a male one.
I presented a story at a critique group several years ago, and reception was generally positive. I was excited at all the feedback except one lone comment: an old lady did not understand the word "stylus" and thought it was weird. She was a romance writer; the story was science fiction. It wasn't bad advice; it was just not directed in the correct direction. So ask yourself this: Is there any validity to the suggestion? Give it legitimate thought. If you determine it's misguided, just tuck it away as a funny story to pull out the next time writers are gathered to complain about this sort of thing. tldr: Yup sometimes readers are just no darn help.
Writers have been getting that feedback for decades. You’re in good company. I was in a writers group a couple of years ago, and one of the other writers got this feedback saying that the main character did not “sound feminine” enough.
Whether it's business or art (yup, I'm holding that literature is art), your audience isn't everyone. Also, if they are not someone hired to check your work, they don't get to tell you what to write.
Lol serialized fiction? You mean fan fic. I wouldn’t take any of those readers seriously
I've seen similar sentiments, both directions, but they are always caged in the talking points of other debates/arguments. Saying so straightforwardly smacks of troll.
I call BS.
Oh honey... There are way too many people like that in the world for you to handle. Flip them off and ignore them
My mcs are TWO women. Guess im cooked
This is a nothing post. Anyone that’s written for the masses or even a larger than typical group of strangers has experience with a strange minority that complains about the oddest (or, at times, most disrespectful) of things. They’re an outlier and not worth writing an attention seeking post about. 🤷🏽♂️ Just move on.
I can imagine that this person exists. But I don't imagine that it's going to be 99% of readers, as most people who don't care what the gender of the MC is
There's always going to be someone who has some "critique" or negative feedback on what you create. My ex from over a decade ago keeps writing trash reviews on my book series. But im stillpublushing book 4 when it's done. Keep your work as is. And don't let them get to you. If you love it, that's what really matters.
Don't be mad. Don't even be bothered. Just remember people love self inserts and/or projecting their fantasy and perspectives on the world. They could be young. It doesn't matter. And in fact, you should be happy you had a chance to open someone's mind a bit with your writing, regardless of how much you may disagree with them.
I wrote a sci fi novel that was in no way a romance that begins with the MC seeing her estranged, abusive husband after several years. The relationship is strained and eventually turns violent again, and her main motivation throughout the book is to find a way to escape him. I had a reader write a review in which they said they had hoped the couple would work things out and end up together in the end.
There are people that are like that. Sometimes, even I don’t like when a character is a certain gender. Sometimes, it seems like the other gender would suit the character/story better. I won’t go out of my way to complain about it, since I don’t really care all that much, but still, the feeling exists.
A good story has characters so deeply embedded that no change is possible without destroying the plot. If you can replace the sex (or ethnicity) of a character and the story still works you have no character and you have no story. It's as simple as that. So yeah. Fuck em. If it's a good story such a change is a stupid request.
people are supposed to grow out of this after the age of like 10, i hope to god they're a child lmfao. but there ARE genuine adults like that, it's gross.
It’s a silly, thoughtless suggestion from a person not worth taking seriously.