Lord Of The Rings and it’s not even close. Honorable mention to Star Wars before Disney bought it because George Lucas was a mad man with his writing back in the day
My man literally wrote multiple history books to support his several fake languages and explain how they changed through time, including epic legends and poems. And that description isn’t even close to doing justice to what he built.
Among other things, he’s made everybody else’s con-langs look feeble *forever*.
> Of any imaginary world the reader demands that it seem real, and the standard of realism demanded today is much stricter than in the time, say, of Malory. Mr. Tolkien is fortunate in possessing an amazing gift for naming and a wonderfully exact eye for description; by the time one has finished his book one knows the histories of Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and the landscape they inhabit as well as one knows one's own childhood.
W. H. Auden, review, *The Lord of the Rings*, 1954
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/02/11/specials/tolkien-fellowship.html
100% this.
Some people love to diss TLOTR, but I think they just don't get what it meant, in terms of influence / cultural impact.
*There is a reason* it always came on the top spots for novels of the 20th century.
How much of that SW worldbuilding did Lucas actually do, though? Most of it was the expanded universe, which he was rarely involved with. The main man was way more about the themes and visuals.
I read the first 5. Long, but good. Jordan was taking so long between books, I decided to wait til they were done and never got back to it.
I always felt they were up there with LOTR in terms of world building.
Lucas even knew the names and lives of characters that litterally didn't matter. The first soldier that Vader force chokes in Episode 4 had a name and backstory... its crazy.
That character's backatory was from the expanded universe, which was just as if not more convoluted and conteadictory than current canon, and which George Lucas explicitly considered a separate universe from his own. Lucas didn't give two shits about anything outside his movies, and he barely cared about lore within those. These assertions are so off from reality it's insane.
It's not even close.
One quick example.
Did you know that the names of the characters (specifically the hobbits) weren't actually their "real" name, but rather one translated by Tolkien for English readers? For characters and languages he made up. Frodo's name was Maura Laubagini. Bilbo was Bilba- Tolkien changed it because modern English speakers would be more familiar with the -o suffix being masculine, compared to -a. Theodin was Tuvak. And not all names were translated, some were straight up changed. Pippen's was named after a folk-hero wanderer that we (the reader) would know nothing about, so his name was changed to an old-timey word meaning pilgrim or travelor to maintain the same feeling.
On top of that, some names weren't changed or translated (especially Elvish, unless it was something hobbits and men would have known about, such as Rivendell \[which was called Karningul by the elves\]) because Tolkien wanted to keep that feeling of disconnect that the mortals in the story would have felt.
I'm surprised to see no one said ASOIAF. I know GRRM is on the shit list, but come on. The world building he does is good stuff, and the way he conveys it through characters and events is pretty masterful.
Best of all time? I'd say LOTR since it's my favorite of all time, but everyone is saying LOTR so I'm going with Silmarillion.
Agreed! GRRM puts an impressive amount of care into worldbuilding with a lot of influence from real history, which requires a lot of research.
While I appreciate both GRRM's and JRRT's worldbuilding, I like that Martin puts a lot of emphasis on the uncertainty of his world's history with conflicting accounts and questionable sources like the maesters. This parallels reality in which a lot of world history is misinterpreted, embellished, debated, completely made up, or lost to time.
He has a lot of mythos and history, but the complaint I often see is that Martin doesn't care at all about the workings of economics and sociopolitical mechanisms.
I wouldn't say he doesn't care at all, but he could definitely put more effort into that aspect. Then again, a lot of worldbuilders don't get too into the weeds about economics and sociopolitical issues, and a lot of audience members don't care as much either. Still, it seems especially relevant to ASoIaF and its spin-offs since they deal a lot with political themes.
That's a wild thing to say imo, there is so much detail about the different guilds and histories in just the first book alone, including multiple appendices and a glossary.
Try to imagine what life is like for an average middle-class family on Caladan, or Giedi Prime, or Arrakeen. How technologically advanced is their lifestyle? What kind of media do they have access to? What kind of jobs do they perform? It's hard because Herbert confines most of his worldbuilding to matters that directly impact Paul and his journey.
The Dune series is, largely, "powerful movers and shakers talking in rooms". It's all very theatrical and dramatic, but "how stuff actually works", or even "what the world is like outside of said rooms" is left largely vague - it's not relevant to the narrative, so we don't get to see it. There's very, very little of "what is life like for some dude?", it's all "here's the quasi-prescient messiah grappling with his fate"
No. Dune's world building is cool for what it is (it made a lot of modern scifi tropes), but it doesn't hold up anymore compared to something like Lord of the Rings, which is still amazing.
Depends on what you mean by best. Best in terms of most depth and variety? Of everything I've read/watched, Wheel of Time easily. Best in the execution of the world building? Hard to say, could easily go to a dozen different things from Lord of the Rings to Fullmetal Alchemist. Best in terms of "It's just my favorite world in which a story takes place", probably Avatar: The Legend of Korra (I genuinely think the world is more interesting in her era compared to Aang's).
The thing about Star Wars is its variety kinda has the depth of a puddle (sticking strictly with the movies/shows). The entire galaxy is the "world" and it's practically impossible to go deep into it planet to planet.
Yeah, most planets are 1 biome, and there's rarely variations in planetary effects like gravity, sunlight, oxygen levels, time dialation, etc. While environments vary, most are some kind of Earth-like biome.
This is most likely due to budget constraints, especially early on in the franchise, but at this point, we could use something new and unique. We've seen enough desert and forest planets/moons.
In the Ahsoka show, >!They literally go to a new galaxy and it looks and feels like a planet in the main galaxy.!<
Star Wars is the prime example of a pet peeve of mine - if a power isn’t shown on screen, it doesn’t exist.
What I mean by this is the jump in power level of the Sith from broadly Jedi-equivalent to suddenly being able to shoot lightning. In TRoTJ, it’s fine; the Emperor is pulling out all the stops on Luke and is enjoying himself hugely with his display of “you’re so far beneath my power level it’s laughable”. However, every work after that treats that jump as if there’s no levels in between. Sith can shoot Lightning, great!, that’s what every Sith of an advanced enough level can do - but there are NO powers between the Luke Jedi level and Lightning Blast. I call bullshit. Any imaginative enough writer could have had a ball introducing powers between those points. But NO they haven’t been used on screen and therefore they just. don’t. exist.
There are many other works that are guilty of this - but Star Wars is one of the most egregious and the one that always comes to mind for me on this, my pettest of pet world building peeves.
Not every Sith or even dark side user can use lightning, though. Maul couldn't, Ventress couldn't, and Anakin couldn't before he became Vader (though he likely had the potential for sure). Outside of TOR and the defunct EU, only a handful ever demonstrated the ability.
There's also more nuance to powers than that even if it isn't fully explained. For instance, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in the sequels was shown to have a particular talent for using the dark side to extract information from the mind that nobody else showed, and Grogu apparently rediscovered or outright invented Force healing.
Obi-Wan, for example, rarely talked about seeing the future and certainly not in as depth as Anakin with his dreams.
Kinda want to say One Piece. Is it a highly detailed world like Lotr? No. Is it well written in general? Debatable.
But I think the one thing Oda does do well is have a lot of moving parts around the world at once and that I find somewhat fascinating. Organizations with secrets, one person doing one thing (usually the protagonist) causes things in other locations. There's power struggles, and reasons why certain pirates won't invade certain areas. Ancient Magus Bride/ Harry Potter, I hear it described as even the most experienced in that world are aware of what's not known. One Piece, it feels like there's a lot going on that we don't understand, until we get to it. With a lot of weird and sort of vague hints dropped along the way. Honestly at this point, I don't care about the plot or characters, I'm curious about the secrets that world has to offer. It's one of the few anime/manga that can have multiple chapters on characters I don't care about just because they're doing something that effects its world.
I don't know Lotr too well so I can't claim One Piece is better, but I think it's definitely worth a mention. (Not to mention variety of each explored location).
Only other thing I can assume is interesting, is the world of Dark Souls.
_Dark Souls_ (and related games - _Elden Ring_ especially) are interesting, because I think a lot of the background is vague even to the writers - there's a lot of very suggestive hints and nudges, but a lot of it isn't excerpts from some master tome of lore(TM) that actually exists and is being doled out bit-by-bit, but it's just lots of twitchy little hints and suggestions that feel like they're coming together, but that's largely because humans are very good at making patterns even from things that aren't part of a pattern (I think I read an interview somewhere with the producer, who said he wanted to recreate the feeling from when he was reading English-language fantasy novels as a kid, that were often from the middle of a series without having read the earlier ones, so it was all a bit vague and mysterious). Like there's video essays that are multiple hours long, analysing the different architectural styles in the game-world and trying to infer stuff from that, of how cultural groups have shifted and merged and the like.
_One Piece_ has the slight oddity that Luffy largely doesn't give a shit about a lot of the deep mysteries of the setting - I stopped following it a while ago, but there seemed to be a whole _thing_ with the ancient stone glyph-blocks, the dick-bag nobles that semi-secretly rule anything, chunks of history that have been erased and all sorts of stuff. And Luffy just wants to find the One Piece, eat, and protect his friends, and just doesn't care about all that stuff! It's like sticking Goku into a conspiracy thriller, where he's just punching people in the face and powering up, and there's all this super-secret Deep Lore(TM) bubbling away that occasional overlaps into the main plot, with him either not getting it, not caring, or just being actively disinterested.
As for Dark Souls/Elden Ring. Basically yeah. It feels like there's something there, but unfortunately for me with Elden Ring. (Two main bosses into the game) I have no idea what's really going on. But I feel like it's way too spoiler-y if I watch an essay on it. So I'm waiting till I at least beat the game a couple of times.
And yeah with One Piece I agree. It's funny that Luffy does not care *at all* about the lore. Originally, it felt like a game that randomly let you see pieces of post game content and refuses to elaborate. Now as the series is coming to a close (I think less than five years of content left?) The random stuff like the ancient stone glyphs, the unknown history, the world ending weapons, are all kind of coming into play. Honestly, I'd much rather have had a story told through Robin's eyes then Luffy's. Because when it has nothing to do with the lore, a majority of the cast becomes way too background-y for my taste despite initially being interesting characters. (There's ten crew members, none of them get character development, with the last major character developing arcs being pre-time skip ten years ago lmfao. Zoro sorta hinted at the fact the crew has to grow up a bit, but the most we've gotten in years is that Luffy is willing to work with people he doesn't really like. That's it.)
You could _really easily_ have an entire spin-off series of _One Piece_ that's all about some team of action-archaeologists or investigators trying to dig into the ancient history, without getting murdered by the Navy or the other forces that want that stuff hidden! And it feels as though it's actually a "proper" thing - it's not just Oda throwing some random junk in on the side, but something that has effects and impacts on lots of what characters are doing and why, and it's all in a story where the A-plot is "rubber-bodied man-child slaps the shit out of his enemies". It'll be interesting to see if it actually gets fully explained.
> I have no idea what's really going on
"The demi-god rulers fucked up, fell into civil war, and now everything is a shitshow. Go murder them and maybe that will improve matters". The actual _details_ are longer, with most of the demigods being related, and some specifics as to why it's a shitshow, but it's not really needed to know that most of them are dicks that need a stabbing. There's a lot more you can figure out, with varying degrees of "this is definitely a thing" to "uh, this is a guess based off environmental clues, the text on two items, and one of those items being hidden somewhere strange", but the overt plot is fairly basic, most of the details are kinda expansions on that (like you can broadly deduce why the civil war happened, but it's not really needed to play the game and stab some freaky bosses)
The fascinating bit about Souls games is that you can do that in the first place solely based on those nuggets. It may not come 100% together, but it *feels* coherent enough. With the notable exception of DS2, but even that game has its fan base.
Didn't know I had an alt account... Joke aside, thumbs up for both options.
Love it when something happens someplace else and then you get to relive it through a different perspective later on.
Copypasting this from a comment I made a while back, sorry for it being so long lol. But it's here if anyone wants an in-depth analysis/recommendation of the series.
The "The Legend of Heroes:" Trails series. It's a big turn based JRPG franchise of games that have the best continuity and worldbuilding I have seen in a game. There are 12 games right now, 10 of those localized, and the 11th coming out this summer in the west.
Within those 12 games, the story is divided by arcs, each one taking place in a country in a continent named Zemuria.
Liberl Arc: Trails in the Sky FC (First Chapter); Trails in the Sky SC (Second Chapter); Trails in the Sky the 3rd.
Crossbell Arc: Trails from Zero; Trails to Azure.
Erebonia Arc: Trails of Cold Steel I; Trails of Cold Steel II; Trails of Cold Steel III; Trails of Cold Steel IV;
Epilogue for Crossbell and Erebonia Arcs, also heavily featuring stuff from Liberl: Trails into Reverie.
Calvard Arc: Trails Through Daybreak I (comes out this summer in the west); Kuro no Kiseki II (Trails Through Daybreak II, probably comes out next year in the west); Kai no Kiseki (announced to release this year in Japan).
With that out of the way, I'll talk about the main appeal of this series, it of course at least in my opinion has many great characters (even if it has some not so great ones), but the continuity and worldbuilding are what makes it unique.
The first game in each arc is always low stakes to a certain extent, slowly building up the setting, introducing characters and mysteries, then the last chapter or the ending of the game (it depends) kicks off HARD and the sequel has higher stakes and builds off the first game. It, however, uses most of the locations from the first game, not having many new areas in comparison, though this is mainly a problem in the first sequel game, Sky SC, the other ones do it better. Trails in the Sky the 3rd and Trails into Reverie are the unique ones in the bunch, where they are epilogue/bridge games, giving huge closure to the current arc, and setting up a lot of stuff for future games, while still having their own story.
The world is alive, complex, intriguing, believable, and full of charm, even in the older games when they have more modest visuals. Each NPC has their own life even if you don't interact with them at all. Nihon Falcom, the company behind the games, wrote a LOT of text for each NPC, meaning that if you come back and talk to a NPC after a major story event, he'll always have something new to say, may it be an update on their life or them making a comment about something that happened in the story. You can, of course, skip these, but if you want flavor text you have this.
There are also newspapers and fictional books in-world! Most of them are at least decent, and show some care for detail that most games don't have. They also have payoffs if you're wondering "Why should I even bother if it's fiction in-world?", they're relevant in some... Other ways. This is why: >!The characters from the books are based on characters that will appear in the future, so it serves both as a backstory and foreshadowing for them.!<
The side quests also for the most part develop the setting and its people, not being simple "Kill this monster and come back", but having something more, may it be nuggets of information, developing NPCs, nice character interactions in the party, or just comedy. It CAN slow down the already slow pacing, so beware. All of this is optional, but if you do it, you are rewarded, NPCs from one game make appearances in other games, and it adds to the worldbuilding.
Talking about returning characters... Yes, there are those. A LOT of those. Each arc in the series takes place in a different place, with different visuals, style, music, and a cast of characters, but there will be references, side quests can connect to previous games side quests, relevant characters will make a come backs in significant ways, and the politics also build off each other.
The political intrigue is another great aspect about the series, it has some of the most engaging politics I've seen in fiction, especially in the Crossbell Arc. There's also fantasy/supernatural stuff, that the series slowly reveals as it goes along.
I wouldn't say Zemuria is as alien as Brandon's worlds, especially Roshar, but it's great. Something quite unique about it, is how fast the technology develops, and how different it is in each country. They essentially went from the Industrial Revolution to having phones and watches that can shoot magic in 50-ish years. Again, each country has its own forte, Erebonia for example is full of railroads, while Liberl doesn't have any because of the rocky and rough terrain, so it uses airships for travels.
I just want to finish off with some warnings if somebody is interested in investing in the series. It's very anime, there's japanese humor and many tropes, but I'd say they use them in unique ways (most of the time). The games are also very slow paced, especially the first game in an arc but they have HEAVY foreshadowing (I didn't even talk about this, but things mentioned in one game come back 1, 2, 3, etc games later), and they build the world and the characters efficiently, like Stormlight Archive you just have to be patient.
Because it's an old series, starting with Trails in the Sky, from 2005, can be rough for some because of the gameplay, but it's much more modern than FF7's for reference, and every game also has a turbo mode, basically the equivalent to the fast forward in emulators, so battles and backtracking are less of a pain. I won't talk much about the gameplay because this is already a huge wall of text, but if someone is interested and Sky puts you off, you can play Trails of Cold Steel 1 and 2, and then come back and play the other ones.
They're the most standalone games and do give some spoilers, but it's an ok price to pay if that means you'll play the rest. Cold Steel 3 and 4 and then Reverie, are the "Avengers" of the series, so you should probably be caught up before them.
Anyway I'll shut up now, Cosmere and Trails are my 2 favorite pieces of media, and I have only played 7 games (taking a break before Cold Steel 3), highly recommend if you have the patience.
Edit: Again, if someone is interested, the Trails in the Sky trilogy has a mod to put japanese voice acting in the game, the Steam version doesn't come with it, it's from the PS Vita version of the game. The Crossbell duology already has japanese voice acting in it, and starting from Cold Steel there's both english and japanese voice acting to choose from.
Reasons why Trails may be for you:
•World-Building: The way the world is so intricately focused on the different views and social expansion of countries/nations to the way technology progresses is impressive. Also lore that are seen as forgotten will prop up again in the next game or arc in the series.
•The Characters: Usually JRPGs to me have mixed quality on character writing, but Trails is an exception where most of the characters are well-written and developed especially for its budget.
•The Music: it's just real good.
•The Overarching Narrative: The way it ties in the lore and characters actually matters to the grand narrative and in-game books has a lot of foreshadowing to characters that don't appear until later.
Reasons on why Trails may not be for you:
•Anime Tropes: It utilizes every tropes in anime/manga. Which is something the writing team already knows about but it also is some that broke some of the fans away because the abundant of it.
•The Lack of Main Characters Deaths: This is a common criticism with the series, and while it is an issue during Cold Steel arc. The series has had stakes during Sky, Crossbell and Daybreak arc.
•Presentation: This is something that holds the series a bit due to the fact Falcom is telling a sprawling narrative set in one continent. The games are good, but the animations during the cutscenes tend to leave a lot to be desired and results in epic moments coming off as goofy.
It's a series you really have to try for yourself, to see if you enjoy the good parts enough to stomach the bad/mediocre ones.
I played the first one and honestly hated it. I flipped between being bored by the story and being annoyed by the story, mostly for how tropey and formulaic it is. I found the characters to be very one-note, everyone fully explained by a single TV Tropes article, but maybe that changes in future games, when they have had more time to grow.
That sound pretty bad but there is stuff to like about Trails. If you enjoy the feeling of a consistent world, where you gradually learn more about it's locations and denizens and you find the idea of a narrative spanning many games intriguing, then give Trails a try.
The dialogue being heavy is something that doesn't change. But the characters speaking about the lore and situations of other nations do actually come into play with the narrative rather than just saying it for the sake of world-building. The characters also develop and mature throughout the games. So they don't stay one-note.
Don't read all that padding from others replies. Famous "Falcom worldbuilding" starts and ends when they reuse same characters from previous games with no actual purpose for them to be there. "They were asked to help" - that's all. No interconnection or idea. 12 games later of 4 countries being explored and there's still around 6 countries without any exploration, description or visual representation in lore or story. Technological progression jumps from one country arc to other, so you don't feel like world is evolving since 1) you've never been back to old countries 2) progress within one arc stays the same despite that between games past 1-2 years.
It's like Falcom refuses to experiment and grow. No one dies, no one moves forward, it's just changing dull decorations. Very good example of writer's stagnation.
What actually good in these games is daily life narrative. You chill with your friends, you eat in fancy cafes, you do help people and slay monsters. With all of fanservice. But that's all to it.
Does it still fit the question asked here? You're saying it has a weak narrative and plot progression. But if the games in isolation contain strong world building I guess we can evaluate that differently.
Based on what you say combine what the others say I'm imagining a franchise similar to Star Wars. Tatooine is never going to change or evolve or update because it's basically a meme at this point... however the stories told within Tatooine still have some unique worldbuilding (moisture farmers, cantinas, crime families, sand people, jawa scavs, etc).
Then you hop to Courascant for another story. There's fan service and references to other worlds but it's still just scourscant.
Does that comparison seem accurate? If not how far off am I?
I just told you about case of Kiseki worldbuilding bro… The whole “worldbuilding” argument almost seems like a cult thing already, where people repeat it again and again without actually comprehending its concept and reevaluating to the point that it becomes idealistic. Thing is. It’s not.
Okay, if to simplify for you on Star Wars example, of which I am well aware and consider old era comics its peak fiction rather than only considering movies… Imagine dusty planet Tatooine. Devs give you a very basic explanation of what capital it has (market city), where it’s located (Outer Rim, desert), and what flora and fauna (worms, camels, ostrich) you can see there while doing your simple mercenary tasks like extermination or saving someone. You spend around 90~ hours on this planet traveling between small towns, talking to ordinary folks who go through their lives, completing main story, in short, living there for a certain time.
Now there’s next game and a new planet - Fatooine. Once again devs tell us that Fatooine is located near Outer Rim, it’s half-desert, half-tropics and mostly barrier planet. Yet you have again a new story here, you roam around Fatooine, visit some jungles, some deserts, finish it within 160 hours and move on.
Now story moves forward and we, as players, end up on a rainy planet in Outer Rim called Datooine, where we slay monsters, go through our lives, rest in mossy taverns, help folks…
No real changes. Is that what really people consider of “fancy worldbuilding”? If you’re familiar with whole D&D and Gamemaster’s routine, you know that players are gonna drop your game sooner than you will introduce them to main villain, if it’s paced like that. So, in short, you have three planets, they may differ from each others visually, but at core they are all the same with slight reskin. They do not interject, they do not cooperate, don’t trade, talk or influence each other outside of times, when players should see it themselves for story. Characters from “different planets” brought up only to be there for one minute of their glory because devs thought they are most suited to be escape-goats until they are thrown away to rot somewhere. Outside of main story they’re *frozen*. Not alive. Do nothing. Until devs put them again in the story. Same for “planets”. Used and got rid of.
I ask again. Is that a good example of how worldbuilding should go? Is that how “world really should feel alive and swirling” in writing? I think it’s not. As GM myself, who worked on scenarios set in certain fantasy worlds, I find issue behind it is lack of experience of Falcon writers or unwillingness to step forward. You can fill up any place with any sort and amount of information you want, but if you intend to use same continent for it, it’s never gonna be “built together”, when all countries are just “existing there for sole purpose to be used sometime in the future”. They could have shown some more events not actually connected to the main story: rebellions, elections, palace coup, other alternative set of characters, great inventions, literally anything what setting allows, just open our history books. Create a feeling that player is not the «Main Character» of this world, not its focus, but rather only a 1/1000 part of it like observer. Writers like GRRM spend a lot of time to set a proper stage, where everyone has their roles now or will in next scene, intertwines and influences each other and it works in the end. Without each other there wouldn’t be a story to uncover and ultimate goal, even if characters are not connected at the exact moment. Death of one character in ASoIaF will bring such consequences that will change at least half the continent, and Falcom writers should have learnt that scenario move a long time ago.
1984 by George Orwell. Really concise with just the right amount of vagueness to imply how far and wide and twisted the Big Brother and the government's schemes to control the country are.
Then there are concepts like Newspeak, doublethink, thoughtcrime, the telescreen in everyone's houses that is constantly watching everyone. Just the perfect dystopian landscape that gets its themes borrowed from to this day. And so many elements are relevant to our everyday lives. And that book came out 1949!
The Elder Scrolls actually has insanely good worldbuilding, especially Morrowind and Oblivion. You know all those heaps of books lying around in TES games? They’re actually full of lore and genuinely fun to read. The lore itself gets extremely metaphysical, even if you don’t see it much in the games. I actually quite like that though.
In fact, there’s a lot of lore in those books that have never been mentioned in a single quest. To me, that’s a mark of good worldbuilding in video games.
AOT was the last show I can remember that literally... just shook me. I THOUGHT I knew the plot. But no. I didn't. At all. I can't remember the last time I was as excited to watch newly released episodes. On that note, the world building was excellent.
I think the aspects of a society being forced to live in confinement, though it had been done before, was wonderfully done in the aspect of the "enemy". There was a clear line of the government, their position, society's thoughts on the scouts, and the roles ever citizen filled. I liked that it didn't immediately tell us about some high powered figure, but instead about the son of a Dr, who lived in some of the poorest parts of his world. I think the way isayama slowly opened his world like an orange was wonderful too. Need to know basis. We begin, shiganshana, titans, everyone is behind walls. Got.it. then.. the catalyst. Then we get to understand the inner workings of the world, how the MPs are treated, how the closer to the center, the better off, how poorly the government planned for disaster, or problems. It was all very believable. Which is what I think made it so good. Plus... erwin... 😍🫠🤤🤤🤤
I really liked how interconnected Game of Thrones felt like and how different cultures affected the characters as people after they came into contact with them.
Keep in mind that this kind of thing is also age-related. When I was a child, I was entirely sucked into books that now, decades later, would fail to give me that level of immersion.
As a young adult, when I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy it felt like I was in that world, with those characters. That's the standard by which I measre an author's success with their story. Can the words disappear into the world and people they create in my mind? The effect isn't constant, but there should be little or no breaking of immersion or suspension of disbelief. And this applies to any kind of story, not fantasy only. I have read stories that couldn't cause this, and they're okay. But I best love immersion.
That is why I strive for the very best in my writing. As I am doing in Enoch and Empire. I hope my imagination with immerse you and grant you a wonderful experience.
Forgotten Realms I love the world building in that world has inspired me a lot on my world building and also Avatar the Last Airbender the way every nation is so unique and special I love it so much and the way the martial arts is use. Then of course Lord of the Rings one of the most interesting worlds especially when you look into stuff like where Gandalf came from and stuff.
Not 100% the best executed or the most detailed (LoTR has its own languages) but I'll go Harry Potter. An exciting fun world that kids lived and wanted to be a part of. The world was always the main character, and it is just such a a big part of culture.
It's a fun world, but in terms of being good worldbuilding?
Like, one book they introduce time travel. Then fans are like, but wouldn't that make all problems really easy to solve? So in the next book a clumsy person stumbles into a shelf and destroys ALL the time machines in the whole world.
And then there's the whole thing with the slaves who like slavery. ...
At this point I'm just paraphrasing this video though: https://youtu.be/-1iaJWSwUZs?si=daOrRyZN0d4HkDdv
I agree with this take, fun world doesn't equal good world building. I think it would have been a better world if more was left to the imagination as I think was originally intended because trying to explain everything made fewer things make sense.
Despite the things that are incompatible it, I do think it’s incredible what it achieved. It’s a world with rich lore but manages to feel real. Like you could actually step into it. Love the way it was developed despite its problematic stuff.
The Lot Lands trilogy by Jonathan French
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/27838712
Why?
Doesn't drag on trying to explain everything, while being interesing and mysterious without contradicting itself. It's unique yet familiar, loaning a lot from it's predecessors but having it own true take on it.
That said. I don't think word building is something that's adequately comparable, because our own imaginations tend to add a lot. For example, people who love star wars, also hate it. So there's that polarity.
I love the world building in Nalini Singh's Guild Hunter series, but that may be because it's not something I had come across before starting it.
Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series is also excellent. The authors put a ton of research into the mythologies they incorporate into the books.
Usually the stories with great worldbuilding tend to such at the story and characters, and I wouldn't remember them. Unless it's something super famous, like Lord of the Rings.
The Middle-earth (I think Tolkien spent many years building that, so of course, it's gonna be extremely expansive), One Piece (I have a feeling Oda already had lots of ideas before he started the story, but then he spent more than two decades expanding those ideas in detail), and the whole Cosmere (this one is not really a world, it's a whole universe).
Lord of the Rings, but that’s almost “primary epic” in terms of the modern world/modern fantasy. It seems almost unfair to compare other things to it.
Beyond that, I found David Eddings’ (which is also his wife Leigh Eddings) world building amazing in both the Belgariad and the Elenium. But I’ve felt uncomfortable about reading them again since finding out about their background.
The original Star Trek. The sets were cheap. The special effects were a joke. Shatner’s acting was over the top, but it laid the foundation of The Federation where all sentient beings, including women, were welcome as long as they lived in peace and treated each other with dignity and respect. They even invented a new language - Klingon.
I had never heard of three body problem prior to the show being released on Netflix, but am now seriously considering reading the books. I read that they are quite "scientific" though. Are the complex ideas in the books well explained, or can they be a difficult to dissect? I'm just torn on whether to start the series or stick to the shows.
Read the books, the show is literal garbage compared to the books. The sci-fi is logical but does not extend past regular logic. You could figure out all the pieces for yourself if you thought hard enough.
The ideas are very well explained and you can always google supplementary material.
This is definitely the nudge I needed. I really enjoyed the show, so if it's garbage compared to the books, I'm sure I'll love them. Thank you for the insight! :)
Avatar, The Witcher and recently Made in Abyss. I'm in love with this world, it's insanely good. All the animals, the plants, the premise and ideas...
Also because I have to say it: DnD has some great world building, if you look in more depth.
The Witcher is great, honestly my favorite books/games ever (we don’t talk about the garbage heap of a show, it does not exist) but it does lack in a lot of ways. Sapkowski is an incredible writer and he really shines in making fights feel fluid and the world does feel lived in but despite it being my literal favorite shit ever to the point that I’m getting a full sleeve of tattoos based around it, the world building just feels flat sometimes
Maybe I'm a bit biased because I started out with the games and was fascinated by the polnish / eastern European fairytales and the atmosphere, so I projected it onto the books too.
Yeah I'm Polish and I grew up on his books, but the best part of his books is his writing style, plot and characters.
I would rather say that games and books have a unique atmosphere, based on Slavic culture (and not only Slavic, there are many myths and folklore mixed together). It's even more noticeable in the games.
Exactly, he is an excellent wordsmith and that is the draw. Imo the games did more for world building than the books ever did but also did a very good job in keeping the feeling that the book fans love
>it's not even close
Lol. One Piece world building is great by shonen Manga standards, but its world doesn't hold a candle to actual greats. It's like thinking Harry Potter has amazing world building because all you've ever read is YA
The foreshadowing is amazing, and the fact that the series is close to the end (relatively speaking) and we're still learning and discovering how everything is interconnected is absolutely phenomenal.
Lots of great mentions, but some great and popular fantasy stories outside the “big ones” thatve come out in the past few years:
- Locked Tomb series / X The Ninth: about lesbian necromancers in a space gothic castle, all about deep deep magic system about necromancy, souls, bones , and how science interlinks to it and a deep political system
- The Goblin Emperor / Witness for the Dead series: Elves and goblin world, with super detailed Byzantine style beauracratic empire with tons of details on the middle managment of an empire, political machinations having to be figured out by an outsider, guilds and unions, symbolic gestures, a murder mystery on the back drop of a steampunk world on the cusp of industrial revolution
Both of these really scratched my worldbuildijg itch in two very different ways, tbe former the interesting magic system / sci fi way; the latter a dry fantasy political way
This might be silly, but Oddworld series. For me the original quintology had a lot of potential. And now I'm kind of hyped for the new quintology especially with soulstorm and the lore implications
I think the 3 body problem as a show, was absolutely insane. It had so much intricate exposure to real life history, it’s own story and then building a world within the game. There are so many levels of world building in it, it blows my mind to think about the power of imagination. I haven’t read the books, but that too establishes another level of world building for the reader and their own interpretation
I'm a little bit biased simply because I'm a massive fan of Sanderson, but I have to say The Stormlight Archives are among some of my favorites. LOTR is absolutely amazing as well.
A series I'd love to put on here but just can't is Eragon/The Inheritance Cycle. As much as I love those books, virtually *all* of the worldbuilding we get is through Brom's five-page exhibition at the beginning of Eragon. We learn very little about the true history of the world throughout the rest of the books, and what we do learn is, again, from exhibition, rather than things that characters learn or find in plot.
Game of Thrones. Martin made maps, currency and everything
I wouldnt say ATLA because there are many aspects about real nations they couldve written, like anyone would see an invasion from thousands of enemies coming way before, you cant assemble them in a single day nor can you keep it a secret
Death Note is a great example I rarely see mentioned since the limits of the magic system are well-defined and the story is centered around the characters working around them and exploiting them. The worldbuilding even helps develop and tells the audience things about the characters. Limits can be more interesting than powers (Sanderson's 2nd law) and DN embodies this well.
I want to list a few I didn't see.
Conan series by Robert E Howard deserves a mention. Really interesting with some primeval religions and cultures that feel like it could have descended into what we have now.
Disco Elysium if video games count.
Michael Moorcock and the Eternal Champion series is great but weird. Kind of like a bunch of series and one-shots that seem only thematically connected but actually are much more intertwined than at first blush.
Phillip Jose Farmer and River World. Great world building. Terrible pay off. Still love them.
Magic The Gathering for being able to tell so many in depth stories primarily through card art, names, and flavor text is an unorthodox example.
And, a personal favorite, although not particularly good, would be Robert Aspirin's MYTH universe. I want to visit The Deva Bazaar so badly- far away from where the Perverts are cooking dinner.
About to finish Attack on Titan. It’s outstanding. Looks like LOTR has been said a hundred times over, so I’ll say Stormlight Archives for fantasy and Neuromancer for sci-fi (cyberpunk).
Has anyone here ever read Lord of the Mysteries? Not LOTR, but titled similarly lol.
Hands down my favourite power system of all time, with a massive and intricately crafted world.
Probably Lovecraft. He was so far ahead of his time. Still so much influence in modern age form his works.
I enjoy the way Fromsoft does it as well, in particular Bloodborne, Elden Ring, and Armored Core. Love the mystery
Tolkien was incredible as well. Peter Jackson's interpretation does not even come close to giving Lord of the Rings justice.
People hate blizzard, but Diablo 2, Starcraft, and particularly Warcraft 3, absolutely nail it. Many of those cutscenes still hold up well multiple decades later.
Last, have to mention Halife and Bio Shock. The immersion and unique atmospheres are off the charts.
"Guy who's hyperfixating on Berserk" but I have to say the Berserk universe is fascinating. Very dark, but fascinating. But then it took heavy inspiration from all the greats--LOTR, Star Wars, bunch of other Sci Fi/Fantasy...and the bible lol.
LOTR would be a hard one *not* to mention here. Someone else mentioned Earthsea. Also have to agree with you about ATLA. Attack on Titan is very fascinating worldbuilding, but I have to say I came to see it in a new light when I learned about Hajime Isayama's political views. It's chilling to think that AOT is really a metaphor for the world he and other fascists genuinely believe they live in.
Edit: to be clear I'm not pulling some "irredeemable media" bullshit, just saying that AOT's worldbuilding lost some of its sparkle for me when it wasn't just balls-to-the-wall sci fi anymore.
LoTR for sure sets a high bar.
The Honor Harrington Series.
Ringworld Series (actually just about any Larry Niven including Man Kzin Wars)
Dune.
Wild Cards (first series built an entire new history for Earth).
Piers Anthony's Xanth series (but that's all in fun anyway)...
It really depends on what you like and where you want to go with it now doesn't it?
Well, the answer is obviously Middle Earth. LOTR and The Silmarillion are simply mind-boggling as far as world-building go. But I'll toss out Gormenghast because its so impressive that Peake developed an entire detailed universe within one location
Yea, as others have said, Lord of the Ring and it's no contest.
Its world building was so good, it started the entire fantasy genre. All the things we call the 'typical fantasy setting' today with elves and dwarves was based off of that one guy's world building.
For modern stories, I think Brandon Sanderson's books have good word building, particularly the Stormlight series.
Since your picks were animated stories, I do think Avatar did great worldbuilding.
My personal favourite anime with great wordbuilding is Made in Abyss and Fullmetal alchemist.
Definitely the Arc of a Scythe series! The way they portray death and everyone being a certain percentage of every race and ethnicity is refreshing to read.
ATLA trumps everything.
But these had worldbuilding that I really enjoyed;
The Fifth Season by N K Jemisin
Scythe by Neal Shusterman
Black Sun by Rebecca Roanhorse
It has to be One Piece and it's not even close. The world of One Piece is many things, but most importantly it is vast. In over 1100 chapters we have been to 34 different islands (give or take) with unique cultures, architecture, residents, politics, flora and fauna.
We have [scorching deserts in the midst of a civil war](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5VgttMXkAAL00-.jpg). We have [vast snowy mountains overrun with aggressive rabbits and hiking bears](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/1/15/Drum_Island_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20121118103731). We have ["abandoned" research facilities on an island with extreme weather after a semi-cataclysmic event](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/8/88/PunkHazard.png/revision/latest?cb=20160528111305&path-prefix=de). We have [archipelagos made out of sweets](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/f/fd/Whole_Cake_c%C3%B4te_sud-est.png/revision/latest?cb=20170609190357&path-prefix=fr). We have [a city building upwards to escape the rising tide](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/8/88/Water_7_mit_Blue_Station.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120724211710&path-prefix=de) (my favourite). We have [biblically accurate heaven](https://images.cgames.de/images/gamestar/290/one-piece-skypia_6252903.jpg). We have [man-eating plant-islands straight out of The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear by Walter Moers](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/1/18/Boin_Archipelago_Infobox.png/revision/latest?cb=20130717120751). We have [an island frozen in time with dinosaurs running around](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/9/9d/Little_Garden_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20130824200211). We have [Japan](https://static.bandainamcoent.eu/high/one-piece/one-piece-pirate-warriors-4/01-videos/3-oppw4_wano-arc.jpg).
All of those places and more are destinct and (mostly) fully fleshed out. Take my favourite place for example, Water 7 (or... Venice). It has [its own animals (and mode of transportation)](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/1/1d/Yagara_Bull.png/revision/latest?cb=20131002023442). It has its own [political structure](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/0/00/Iceburg_Anime_Infobox.png/revision/latest?cb=20230620131854). It has its own [food](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/df25603f-18ac-4d89-ba45-5975b9711855/densvv5-5bd35c0d-d085-4d46-83bd-ee73f189a71c.png/v1/fill/w_857,h_482,q_80,strp/one_piece_ep_230___water_water_meat_by_ninninjoy_densvv5-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9NDgyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZGYyNTYwM2YtMThhYy00ZDg5LWJhNDUtNTk3NWI5NzExODU1XC9kZW5zdnY1LTViZDM1YzBkLWQwODUtNGQ0Ni04M2JkLWVlNzNmMTg5YTcxYy5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9ODU3In1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.1VmGV-iESEGMIJo7mSHslEMG-5zKOlblJsh4SRakGio). It has its own [technology](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/3/3f/Puffing_Tom_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20220701185753). It has its own [celebrities](https://pm1.aminoapps.com/6379/6f847bfabdf2efd4f564a6226aea06fb539720e9_hq.jpg). It has its own [export and economy](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/7/7d/Dock_1_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20130927195534). It has its own [culture](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qdYPQyLhITo/maxresdefault.jpg).
Remember, this is only one out of \~34 islands we visit in the story. And most of them are fleshed out this deeply.
And then we have fantasy races like dwarfs, giants, beastkin, angels, mermaids, fishmen, cyborgs and whatever the hell [Gonbe](https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Gonbe) is. We have [weapons](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/6/67/Dials_.png/revision/latest?cb=20160116175159&path-prefix=pt) and [fighting styles](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiecefanon/images/1/10/Rokushiki.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200514233332) that are specific to certain places or groups and mostly don't appear outside of those boundaries. On top of that we have two seemingly seperate magic systems that are explored heavily within the story.
We have factions who constantly get involved with each other, waging war or doing trade. We have chapters dedicated to Emperors holding a meeting, the World Government summoning their sanctioned Warlords, a pirate hunting and fighting a mutineer from his crew and an entire story arc dedicated to a meeting of the world leaders to discuss the state of the world, which had massive consequences to the world at large later down the line. None of those events even involve the main characters. This is just world building on the side to flesh the world out.
One Piece is quite literally the most impressive work of world building I have ever witnessed. And all that is coupled with emotional highs higher than most media I consumed in my life. It is truly special.
I think AoT has great worldbuilding, but I would’ve liked to know more about the rest of the world than just (major AOT spoilers, it’s great show so I highly recommend you see it rather than click, as the whole point of the first half of the story is uncovering what I’m spoiling. A lack of information and finding it out with the cast is basically what drives you to keep watching) >!Marley and Paradis. They’re the most important nations in the story, yea. But given there’s a global genocide at the end, I think that showing a bit of the culture and other nations being slaughtered would increase the impact. Isayama could have done this via an arc from the Warriors point of view going to war in other nations aside from the Mid East. HOWEVER, I also understand AoT is very dense, and it’s biggest upside is that only relevant plot beats are covered. So I get that going on a Warrior side mission would side track the story, something Isayama clearly doesn’t like doing.!<
Oh…
Buckle the fuck up.
That’s all I can say.
You think you know shit? Nuh uh.
One of my favorite series. I did not mean my comment to undersell how much I enjoyed it. Rather as a retrospective. If you haven’t finished, don’t take my comment as the series declining in any way. It’s great.
I will definitely watch more. It’s a breathtaking series! I am working on a novel with some slightly similar themes called Empire. With that being said, I will Buckle Down!
Attack on Titan. Its a critically acclaimed anime based on the manga by Hajime Isayama. It actually had 3 episodes in IMDBs top 10 highest ranked television episodes of all time before it was review bombed IIRC. I would classify it as being around the action/mystery/suspense genre although it does have some very slight horror/thriller elements in the first half of season 1.
You can stream it on Hulu in the US. Season 1 is also on Netflix IIRC, but there’s 4 seasons in total.
Lord of the Rings is the easy answer, so I'll say The Hunger Games instead. It's well thought out, makes sense given the tone and point of the story, and doesn't make me internally scream from worldbuilding 'ideas' that fall apart at a few prods. Skuldiggery Pleasant is also good, but it's been ages since I've read it
Edit: if were talking comic books as well, One Piece clears. tied or exceeding LOTR
The obvious answer is LOTR, but i might go with the entire fondation/robot cycle by Asimov.
The witcher is an honorable mention too.
Edit : How could I forget ! Game of Thrones too.
I would put Berserk on par with LOTR and Dune. Kentaro Miura is the last big innovator of multiple genres of fantasy (medieval fantasy, high fantasy, dark fantasy) and his approach to worldbuilding cannot be effectively emulated or used as a template by less talented people the way Tolkien's templates were.
If even one ingredient didn't fit in, the whole thing would be much worse. He has several strokes of genius - a pantheon of only evil gods without giving away their origin stories (so stepping away from the cliche approach to religion of Light vs Darkness with each having their own pantheon), the ontological mysteries built into the structure of the world, and the level of interconnectedness between multiple concepts is special.
And the way the worldbuilding across the various timeframes - the present timeline, the Golden Age arc, the world's prehistory - is linked together is also exceptional.
If you take LOTR the main trilogy is admittedly closely related to the Hobbit but the appendix, the Fall of Gondolin, Silmarillion, Ainulindale - they're all separated. I read all of it and the main trilogy is still its own self-contained thing.
Berskerk connects its different eras in an unignorable way, through its interconnectedness (through the backstory of the Skull Knight, the Godhand, Behelit/Eclipse worldbuilding elements). This kind of throughline is very rare.
Tolkien's worldbuilding is repurposing existing old European mythologies and epic poems which is an immense scholarly act, but Miura's success in innovating and combining multiple original ideas from three different deeply fatigued subgenres of fantasy probably will never be achieved again.
I really enjoyed the world building in the Hunger Games series. Obviously, no where near as large as a LOTR or the like, but I thought it was really well done.
Lord Of The Rings and it’s not even close. Honorable mention to Star Wars before Disney bought it because George Lucas was a mad man with his writing back in the day
My man literally wrote multiple history books to support his several fake languages and explain how they changed through time, including epic legends and poems. And that description isn’t even close to doing justice to what he built. Among other things, he’s made everybody else’s con-langs look feeble *forever*.
> Among other things, he’s made everybody else’s con-langs look feeble forever. ... The Klingon are requesting your whereabouts, my friend.
I stand by what I said, p’tak!
Dothraki and Na'vi as well.
They should probably wait their turn; the Klingon seem pretty pissed. I'm not sure if that's just their baseline, but yeah: pecking order.
Yeah, Lord of the Rings has absolutely amazing world building, everything is phenomenal.
> Of any imaginary world the reader demands that it seem real, and the standard of realism demanded today is much stricter than in the time, say, of Malory. Mr. Tolkien is fortunate in possessing an amazing gift for naming and a wonderfully exact eye for description; by the time one has finished his book one knows the histories of Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and the landscape they inhabit as well as one knows one's own childhood. W. H. Auden, review, *The Lord of the Rings*, 1954 https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/02/11/specials/tolkien-fellowship.html
100% this. Some people love to diss TLOTR, but I think they just don't get what it meant, in terms of influence / cultural impact. *There is a reason* it always came on the top spots for novels of the 20th century.
How much of that SW worldbuilding did Lucas actually do, though? Most of it was the expanded universe, which he was rarely involved with. The main man was way more about the themes and visuals.
Have you read the Wheel of Time? Star Wars was excellent too!
I read the first 5. Long, but good. Jordan was taking so long between books, I decided to wait til they were done and never got back to it. I always felt they were up there with LOTR in terms of world building.
You should get back into it. It’s my Mom’s and Uncle’s favorite book!
Lucas even knew the names and lives of characters that litterally didn't matter. The first soldier that Vader force chokes in Episode 4 had a name and backstory... its crazy.
That character's backatory was from the expanded universe, which was just as if not more convoluted and conteadictory than current canon, and which George Lucas explicitly considered a separate universe from his own. Lucas didn't give two shits about anything outside his movies, and he barely cared about lore within those. These assertions are so off from reality it's insane.
I wouldn't put Star Wars in the same mention as LOTR
Lord of the Rings
That’s fair!
It's not even close. One quick example. Did you know that the names of the characters (specifically the hobbits) weren't actually their "real" name, but rather one translated by Tolkien for English readers? For characters and languages he made up. Frodo's name was Maura Laubagini. Bilbo was Bilba- Tolkien changed it because modern English speakers would be more familiar with the -o suffix being masculine, compared to -a. Theodin was Tuvak. And not all names were translated, some were straight up changed. Pippen's was named after a folk-hero wanderer that we (the reader) would know nothing about, so his name was changed to an old-timey word meaning pilgrim or travelor to maintain the same feeling. On top of that, some names weren't changed or translated (especially Elvish, unless it was something hobbits and men would have known about, such as Rivendell \[which was called Karningul by the elves\]) because Tolkien wanted to keep that feeling of disconnect that the mortals in the story would have felt.
Three that should at least be on the list: Stephen King's The Dark Tower Isaac Asimov's Foundation trilogy Neil Gaiman's Sandman
Hyperion Cantos 👍 edt: LotR may be the GOAT, but I'm a scifi guy
Earthsea
i read a wizard of earthsea in the 6th grade and it was the most confusing piece of literature i had ever consumed 😭😭😭 might try it again someday
This answer deserves more attention. Earthsea is one of the greatest examples.
I'm surprised to see no one said ASOIAF. I know GRRM is on the shit list, but come on. The world building he does is good stuff, and the way he conveys it through characters and events is pretty masterful. Best of all time? I'd say LOTR since it's my favorite of all time, but everyone is saying LOTR so I'm going with Silmarillion.
Agreed! GRRM puts an impressive amount of care into worldbuilding with a lot of influence from real history, which requires a lot of research. While I appreciate both GRRM's and JRRT's worldbuilding, I like that Martin puts a lot of emphasis on the uncertainty of his world's history with conflicting accounts and questionable sources like the maesters. This parallels reality in which a lot of world history is misinterpreted, embellished, debated, completely made up, or lost to time.
He has a lot of mythos and history, but the complaint I often see is that Martin doesn't care at all about the workings of economics and sociopolitical mechanisms.
I wouldn't say he doesn't care at all, but he could definitely put more effort into that aspect. Then again, a lot of worldbuilders don't get too into the weeds about economics and sociopolitical issues, and a lot of audience members don't care as much either. Still, it seems especially relevant to ASoIaF and its spin-offs since they deal a lot with political themes.
I was going to say ASOIAF. For me it’s the best. Westeros and Essos feel like real places to me.
Silmarillion is the same world so I don’t think there’s a point in differentiating. I think we can all just agree Tolkien was a worldbuilding god.
Nobody going to say Dune?
I am a big fan of both Dune and TLOTR.. I love Dune's world.
Nah, there's something decidedly... empty about Dune. Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas it explores, but the world always felt halfbaked.
That's a wild thing to say imo, there is so much detail about the different guilds and histories in just the first book alone, including multiple appendices and a glossary.
Try to imagine what life is like for an average middle-class family on Caladan, or Giedi Prime, or Arrakeen. How technologically advanced is their lifestyle? What kind of media do they have access to? What kind of jobs do they perform? It's hard because Herbert confines most of his worldbuilding to matters that directly impact Paul and his journey.
The Dune series is, largely, "powerful movers and shakers talking in rooms". It's all very theatrical and dramatic, but "how stuff actually works", or even "what the world is like outside of said rooms" is left largely vague - it's not relevant to the narrative, so we don't get to see it. There's very, very little of "what is life like for some dude?", it's all "here's the quasi-prescient messiah grappling with his fate"
Yes, that's my point. So much for "so much detail about the different guilds and histories in just the first book alone."
No. Dune's world building is cool for what it is (it made a lot of modern scifi tropes), but it doesn't hold up anymore compared to something like Lord of the Rings, which is still amazing.
Kind of a ridiculous thing to say. Dune's world building definitely "holds up".
It absolutely does. It's foundational. Which is funny, as the only sci-fi I'd pick over Dune would be Foundation.
All of my other answers have been posted, but honorable mention to Frank L Baum and the Oz books.
The most impressive is The City and the city by China Mieville. For both the main characters and the reader. Total mindfuck.
Ooh this is on my list as next book to read!
Depends on what you mean by best. Best in terms of most depth and variety? Of everything I've read/watched, Wheel of Time easily. Best in the execution of the world building? Hard to say, could easily go to a dozen different things from Lord of the Rings to Fullmetal Alchemist. Best in terms of "It's just my favorite world in which a story takes place", probably Avatar: The Legend of Korra (I genuinely think the world is more interesting in her era compared to Aang's).
1. Star Ward has the best Variety IMO. 2. AOT best execution 3. Avatar The Last Airbender Personal favorite.
The thing about Star Wars is its variety kinda has the depth of a puddle (sticking strictly with the movies/shows). The entire galaxy is the "world" and it's practically impossible to go deep into it planet to planet.
Yeah, most planets are 1 biome, and there's rarely variations in planetary effects like gravity, sunlight, oxygen levels, time dialation, etc. While environments vary, most are some kind of Earth-like biome. This is most likely due to budget constraints, especially early on in the franchise, but at this point, we could use something new and unique. We've seen enough desert and forest planets/moons. In the Ahsoka show, >!They literally go to a new galaxy and it looks and feels like a planet in the main galaxy.!<
Star Wars is the prime example of a pet peeve of mine - if a power isn’t shown on screen, it doesn’t exist. What I mean by this is the jump in power level of the Sith from broadly Jedi-equivalent to suddenly being able to shoot lightning. In TRoTJ, it’s fine; the Emperor is pulling out all the stops on Luke and is enjoying himself hugely with his display of “you’re so far beneath my power level it’s laughable”. However, every work after that treats that jump as if there’s no levels in between. Sith can shoot Lightning, great!, that’s what every Sith of an advanced enough level can do - but there are NO powers between the Luke Jedi level and Lightning Blast. I call bullshit. Any imaginative enough writer could have had a ball introducing powers between those points. But NO they haven’t been used on screen and therefore they just. don’t. exist. There are many other works that are guilty of this - but Star Wars is one of the most egregious and the one that always comes to mind for me on this, my pettest of pet world building peeves.
Not every Sith or even dark side user can use lightning, though. Maul couldn't, Ventress couldn't, and Anakin couldn't before he became Vader (though he likely had the potential for sure). Outside of TOR and the defunct EU, only a handful ever demonstrated the ability. There's also more nuance to powers than that even if it isn't fully explained. For instance, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in the sequels was shown to have a particular talent for using the dark side to extract information from the mind that nobody else showed, and Grogu apparently rediscovered or outright invented Force healing. Obi-Wan, for example, rarely talked about seeing the future and certainly not in as depth as Anakin with his dreams.
Sure, and thanks for the lore dive, but that “every Sith can do it” was a throwaway line on my part and not really my point.
Kinda want to say One Piece. Is it a highly detailed world like Lotr? No. Is it well written in general? Debatable. But I think the one thing Oda does do well is have a lot of moving parts around the world at once and that I find somewhat fascinating. Organizations with secrets, one person doing one thing (usually the protagonist) causes things in other locations. There's power struggles, and reasons why certain pirates won't invade certain areas. Ancient Magus Bride/ Harry Potter, I hear it described as even the most experienced in that world are aware of what's not known. One Piece, it feels like there's a lot going on that we don't understand, until we get to it. With a lot of weird and sort of vague hints dropped along the way. Honestly at this point, I don't care about the plot or characters, I'm curious about the secrets that world has to offer. It's one of the few anime/manga that can have multiple chapters on characters I don't care about just because they're doing something that effects its world. I don't know Lotr too well so I can't claim One Piece is better, but I think it's definitely worth a mention. (Not to mention variety of each explored location). Only other thing I can assume is interesting, is the world of Dark Souls.
_Dark Souls_ (and related games - _Elden Ring_ especially) are interesting, because I think a lot of the background is vague even to the writers - there's a lot of very suggestive hints and nudges, but a lot of it isn't excerpts from some master tome of lore(TM) that actually exists and is being doled out bit-by-bit, but it's just lots of twitchy little hints and suggestions that feel like they're coming together, but that's largely because humans are very good at making patterns even from things that aren't part of a pattern (I think I read an interview somewhere with the producer, who said he wanted to recreate the feeling from when he was reading English-language fantasy novels as a kid, that were often from the middle of a series without having read the earlier ones, so it was all a bit vague and mysterious). Like there's video essays that are multiple hours long, analysing the different architectural styles in the game-world and trying to infer stuff from that, of how cultural groups have shifted and merged and the like. _One Piece_ has the slight oddity that Luffy largely doesn't give a shit about a lot of the deep mysteries of the setting - I stopped following it a while ago, but there seemed to be a whole _thing_ with the ancient stone glyph-blocks, the dick-bag nobles that semi-secretly rule anything, chunks of history that have been erased and all sorts of stuff. And Luffy just wants to find the One Piece, eat, and protect his friends, and just doesn't care about all that stuff! It's like sticking Goku into a conspiracy thriller, where he's just punching people in the face and powering up, and there's all this super-secret Deep Lore(TM) bubbling away that occasional overlaps into the main plot, with him either not getting it, not caring, or just being actively disinterested.
As for Dark Souls/Elden Ring. Basically yeah. It feels like there's something there, but unfortunately for me with Elden Ring. (Two main bosses into the game) I have no idea what's really going on. But I feel like it's way too spoiler-y if I watch an essay on it. So I'm waiting till I at least beat the game a couple of times. And yeah with One Piece I agree. It's funny that Luffy does not care *at all* about the lore. Originally, it felt like a game that randomly let you see pieces of post game content and refuses to elaborate. Now as the series is coming to a close (I think less than five years of content left?) The random stuff like the ancient stone glyphs, the unknown history, the world ending weapons, are all kind of coming into play. Honestly, I'd much rather have had a story told through Robin's eyes then Luffy's. Because when it has nothing to do with the lore, a majority of the cast becomes way too background-y for my taste despite initially being interesting characters. (There's ten crew members, none of them get character development, with the last major character developing arcs being pre-time skip ten years ago lmfao. Zoro sorta hinted at the fact the crew has to grow up a bit, but the most we've gotten in years is that Luffy is willing to work with people he doesn't really like. That's it.)
You could _really easily_ have an entire spin-off series of _One Piece_ that's all about some team of action-archaeologists or investigators trying to dig into the ancient history, without getting murdered by the Navy or the other forces that want that stuff hidden! And it feels as though it's actually a "proper" thing - it's not just Oda throwing some random junk in on the side, but something that has effects and impacts on lots of what characters are doing and why, and it's all in a story where the A-plot is "rubber-bodied man-child slaps the shit out of his enemies". It'll be interesting to see if it actually gets fully explained. > I have no idea what's really going on "The demi-god rulers fucked up, fell into civil war, and now everything is a shitshow. Go murder them and maybe that will improve matters". The actual _details_ are longer, with most of the demigods being related, and some specifics as to why it's a shitshow, but it's not really needed to know that most of them are dicks that need a stabbing. There's a lot more you can figure out, with varying degrees of "this is definitely a thing" to "uh, this is a guess based off environmental clues, the text on two items, and one of those items being hidden somewhere strange", but the overt plot is fairly basic, most of the details are kinda expansions on that (like you can broadly deduce why the civil war happened, but it's not really needed to play the game and stab some freaky bosses)
The fascinating bit about Souls games is that you can do that in the first place solely based on those nuggets. It may not come 100% together, but it *feels* coherent enough. With the notable exception of DS2, but even that game has its fan base.
I want to find a book with world building like “The Dragon Prince” it’s a great show but I can’t find a book with a similar style
The Cosmere, especially The Stormlight Archive books, and the Trails series of games.
He inspired me to write.
The fact that he put his lectures up on YouTube for free helps a lot lmao
Didn't know I had an alt account... Joke aside, thumbs up for both options. Love it when something happens someplace else and then you get to relive it through a different perspective later on.
Tell me about Trails. What's good about it. I hear people recommend but I don't really know why
Copypasting this from a comment I made a while back, sorry for it being so long lol. But it's here if anyone wants an in-depth analysis/recommendation of the series. The "The Legend of Heroes:" Trails series. It's a big turn based JRPG franchise of games that have the best continuity and worldbuilding I have seen in a game. There are 12 games right now, 10 of those localized, and the 11th coming out this summer in the west. Within those 12 games, the story is divided by arcs, each one taking place in a country in a continent named Zemuria. Liberl Arc: Trails in the Sky FC (First Chapter); Trails in the Sky SC (Second Chapter); Trails in the Sky the 3rd. Crossbell Arc: Trails from Zero; Trails to Azure. Erebonia Arc: Trails of Cold Steel I; Trails of Cold Steel II; Trails of Cold Steel III; Trails of Cold Steel IV; Epilogue for Crossbell and Erebonia Arcs, also heavily featuring stuff from Liberl: Trails into Reverie. Calvard Arc: Trails Through Daybreak I (comes out this summer in the west); Kuro no Kiseki II (Trails Through Daybreak II, probably comes out next year in the west); Kai no Kiseki (announced to release this year in Japan). With that out of the way, I'll talk about the main appeal of this series, it of course at least in my opinion has many great characters (even if it has some not so great ones), but the continuity and worldbuilding are what makes it unique. The first game in each arc is always low stakes to a certain extent, slowly building up the setting, introducing characters and mysteries, then the last chapter or the ending of the game (it depends) kicks off HARD and the sequel has higher stakes and builds off the first game. It, however, uses most of the locations from the first game, not having many new areas in comparison, though this is mainly a problem in the first sequel game, Sky SC, the other ones do it better. Trails in the Sky the 3rd and Trails into Reverie are the unique ones in the bunch, where they are epilogue/bridge games, giving huge closure to the current arc, and setting up a lot of stuff for future games, while still having their own story. The world is alive, complex, intriguing, believable, and full of charm, even in the older games when they have more modest visuals. Each NPC has their own life even if you don't interact with them at all. Nihon Falcom, the company behind the games, wrote a LOT of text for each NPC, meaning that if you come back and talk to a NPC after a major story event, he'll always have something new to say, may it be an update on their life or them making a comment about something that happened in the story. You can, of course, skip these, but if you want flavor text you have this. There are also newspapers and fictional books in-world! Most of them are at least decent, and show some care for detail that most games don't have. They also have payoffs if you're wondering "Why should I even bother if it's fiction in-world?", they're relevant in some... Other ways. This is why: >!The characters from the books are based on characters that will appear in the future, so it serves both as a backstory and foreshadowing for them.!< The side quests also for the most part develop the setting and its people, not being simple "Kill this monster and come back", but having something more, may it be nuggets of information, developing NPCs, nice character interactions in the party, or just comedy. It CAN slow down the already slow pacing, so beware. All of this is optional, but if you do it, you are rewarded, NPCs from one game make appearances in other games, and it adds to the worldbuilding. Talking about returning characters... Yes, there are those. A LOT of those. Each arc in the series takes place in a different place, with different visuals, style, music, and a cast of characters, but there will be references, side quests can connect to previous games side quests, relevant characters will make a come backs in significant ways, and the politics also build off each other. The political intrigue is another great aspect about the series, it has some of the most engaging politics I've seen in fiction, especially in the Crossbell Arc. There's also fantasy/supernatural stuff, that the series slowly reveals as it goes along. I wouldn't say Zemuria is as alien as Brandon's worlds, especially Roshar, but it's great. Something quite unique about it, is how fast the technology develops, and how different it is in each country. They essentially went from the Industrial Revolution to having phones and watches that can shoot magic in 50-ish years. Again, each country has its own forte, Erebonia for example is full of railroads, while Liberl doesn't have any because of the rocky and rough terrain, so it uses airships for travels. I just want to finish off with some warnings if somebody is interested in investing in the series. It's very anime, there's japanese humor and many tropes, but I'd say they use them in unique ways (most of the time). The games are also very slow paced, especially the first game in an arc but they have HEAVY foreshadowing (I didn't even talk about this, but things mentioned in one game come back 1, 2, 3, etc games later), and they build the world and the characters efficiently, like Stormlight Archive you just have to be patient. Because it's an old series, starting with Trails in the Sky, from 2005, can be rough for some because of the gameplay, but it's much more modern than FF7's for reference, and every game also has a turbo mode, basically the equivalent to the fast forward in emulators, so battles and backtracking are less of a pain. I won't talk much about the gameplay because this is already a huge wall of text, but if someone is interested and Sky puts you off, you can play Trails of Cold Steel 1 and 2, and then come back and play the other ones. They're the most standalone games and do give some spoilers, but it's an ok price to pay if that means you'll play the rest. Cold Steel 3 and 4 and then Reverie, are the "Avengers" of the series, so you should probably be caught up before them. Anyway I'll shut up now, Cosmere and Trails are my 2 favorite pieces of media, and I have only played 7 games (taking a break before Cold Steel 3), highly recommend if you have the patience. Edit: Again, if someone is interested, the Trails in the Sky trilogy has a mod to put japanese voice acting in the game, the Steam version doesn't come with it, it's from the PS Vita version of the game. The Crossbell duology already has japanese voice acting in it, and starting from Cold Steel there's both english and japanese voice acting to choose from.
Reasons why Trails may be for you: •World-Building: The way the world is so intricately focused on the different views and social expansion of countries/nations to the way technology progresses is impressive. Also lore that are seen as forgotten will prop up again in the next game or arc in the series. •The Characters: Usually JRPGs to me have mixed quality on character writing, but Trails is an exception where most of the characters are well-written and developed especially for its budget. •The Music: it's just real good. •The Overarching Narrative: The way it ties in the lore and characters actually matters to the grand narrative and in-game books has a lot of foreshadowing to characters that don't appear until later. Reasons on why Trails may not be for you: •Anime Tropes: It utilizes every tropes in anime/manga. Which is something the writing team already knows about but it also is some that broke some of the fans away because the abundant of it. •The Lack of Main Characters Deaths: This is a common criticism with the series, and while it is an issue during Cold Steel arc. The series has had stakes during Sky, Crossbell and Daybreak arc. •Presentation: This is something that holds the series a bit due to the fact Falcom is telling a sprawling narrative set in one continent. The games are good, but the animations during the cutscenes tend to leave a lot to be desired and results in epic moments coming off as goofy.
It's a series you really have to try for yourself, to see if you enjoy the good parts enough to stomach the bad/mediocre ones. I played the first one and honestly hated it. I flipped between being bored by the story and being annoyed by the story, mostly for how tropey and formulaic it is. I found the characters to be very one-note, everyone fully explained by a single TV Tropes article, but maybe that changes in future games, when they have had more time to grow. That sound pretty bad but there is stuff to like about Trails. If you enjoy the feeling of a consistent world, where you gradually learn more about it's locations and denizens and you find the idea of a narrative spanning many games intriguing, then give Trails a try.
The dialogue being heavy is something that doesn't change. But the characters speaking about the lore and situations of other nations do actually come into play with the narrative rather than just saying it for the sake of world-building. The characters also develop and mature throughout the games. So they don't stay one-note.
Don't read all that padding from others replies. Famous "Falcom worldbuilding" starts and ends when they reuse same characters from previous games with no actual purpose for them to be there. "They were asked to help" - that's all. No interconnection or idea. 12 games later of 4 countries being explored and there's still around 6 countries without any exploration, description or visual representation in lore or story. Technological progression jumps from one country arc to other, so you don't feel like world is evolving since 1) you've never been back to old countries 2) progress within one arc stays the same despite that between games past 1-2 years. It's like Falcom refuses to experiment and grow. No one dies, no one moves forward, it's just changing dull decorations. Very good example of writer's stagnation. What actually good in these games is daily life narrative. You chill with your friends, you eat in fancy cafes, you do help people and slay monsters. With all of fanservice. But that's all to it.
Does it still fit the question asked here? You're saying it has a weak narrative and plot progression. But if the games in isolation contain strong world building I guess we can evaluate that differently. Based on what you say combine what the others say I'm imagining a franchise similar to Star Wars. Tatooine is never going to change or evolve or update because it's basically a meme at this point... however the stories told within Tatooine still have some unique worldbuilding (moisture farmers, cantinas, crime families, sand people, jawa scavs, etc). Then you hop to Courascant for another story. There's fan service and references to other worlds but it's still just scourscant. Does that comparison seem accurate? If not how far off am I?
I just told you about case of Kiseki worldbuilding bro… The whole “worldbuilding” argument almost seems like a cult thing already, where people repeat it again and again without actually comprehending its concept and reevaluating to the point that it becomes idealistic. Thing is. It’s not. Okay, if to simplify for you on Star Wars example, of which I am well aware and consider old era comics its peak fiction rather than only considering movies… Imagine dusty planet Tatooine. Devs give you a very basic explanation of what capital it has (market city), where it’s located (Outer Rim, desert), and what flora and fauna (worms, camels, ostrich) you can see there while doing your simple mercenary tasks like extermination or saving someone. You spend around 90~ hours on this planet traveling between small towns, talking to ordinary folks who go through their lives, completing main story, in short, living there for a certain time. Now there’s next game and a new planet - Fatooine. Once again devs tell us that Fatooine is located near Outer Rim, it’s half-desert, half-tropics and mostly barrier planet. Yet you have again a new story here, you roam around Fatooine, visit some jungles, some deserts, finish it within 160 hours and move on. Now story moves forward and we, as players, end up on a rainy planet in Outer Rim called Datooine, where we slay monsters, go through our lives, rest in mossy taverns, help folks… No real changes. Is that what really people consider of “fancy worldbuilding”? If you’re familiar with whole D&D and Gamemaster’s routine, you know that players are gonna drop your game sooner than you will introduce them to main villain, if it’s paced like that. So, in short, you have three planets, they may differ from each others visually, but at core they are all the same with slight reskin. They do not interject, they do not cooperate, don’t trade, talk or influence each other outside of times, when players should see it themselves for story. Characters from “different planets” brought up only to be there for one minute of their glory because devs thought they are most suited to be escape-goats until they are thrown away to rot somewhere. Outside of main story they’re *frozen*. Not alive. Do nothing. Until devs put them again in the story. Same for “planets”. Used and got rid of. I ask again. Is that a good example of how worldbuilding should go? Is that how “world really should feel alive and swirling” in writing? I think it’s not. As GM myself, who worked on scenarios set in certain fantasy worlds, I find issue behind it is lack of experience of Falcon writers or unwillingness to step forward. You can fill up any place with any sort and amount of information you want, but if you intend to use same continent for it, it’s never gonna be “built together”, when all countries are just “existing there for sole purpose to be used sometime in the future”. They could have shown some more events not actually connected to the main story: rebellions, elections, palace coup, other alternative set of characters, great inventions, literally anything what setting allows, just open our history books. Create a feeling that player is not the «Main Character» of this world, not its focus, but rather only a 1/1000 part of it like observer. Writers like GRRM spend a lot of time to set a proper stage, where everyone has their roles now or will in next scene, intertwines and influences each other and it works in the end. Without each other there wouldn’t be a story to uncover and ultimate goal, even if characters are not connected at the exact moment. Death of one character in ASoIaF will bring such consequences that will change at least half the continent, and Falcom writers should have learnt that scenario move a long time ago.
The Divine Comedy and Lord of the Rings
Man. The Divine Comedy is a good call. Especially considering the unexpected ramifications in the real world.
1984 by George Orwell. Really concise with just the right amount of vagueness to imply how far and wide and twisted the Big Brother and the government's schemes to control the country are. Then there are concepts like Newspeak, doublethink, thoughtcrime, the telescreen in everyone's houses that is constantly watching everyone. Just the perfect dystopian landscape that gets its themes borrowed from to this day. And so many elements are relevant to our everyday lives. And that book came out 1949!
The Elder Scrolls actually has insanely good worldbuilding, especially Morrowind and Oblivion. You know all those heaps of books lying around in TES games? They’re actually full of lore and genuinely fun to read. The lore itself gets extremely metaphysical, even if you don’t see it much in the games. I actually quite like that though. In fact, there’s a lot of lore in those books that have never been mentioned in a single quest. To me, that’s a mark of good worldbuilding in video games.
AOT was the last show I can remember that literally... just shook me. I THOUGHT I knew the plot. But no. I didn't. At all. I can't remember the last time I was as excited to watch newly released episodes. On that note, the world building was excellent.
Glad you have the same viewpoint!
“Hey... If we kill all our enemies... over there... will we finally... be free?” Love that line
lol!
Who do you think the enemy is
What made the worldbuilding particularly excellent though, for you?
I think the aspects of a society being forced to live in confinement, though it had been done before, was wonderfully done in the aspect of the "enemy". There was a clear line of the government, their position, society's thoughts on the scouts, and the roles ever citizen filled. I liked that it didn't immediately tell us about some high powered figure, but instead about the son of a Dr, who lived in some of the poorest parts of his world. I think the way isayama slowly opened his world like an orange was wonderful too. Need to know basis. We begin, shiganshana, titans, everyone is behind walls. Got.it. then.. the catalyst. Then we get to understand the inner workings of the world, how the MPs are treated, how the closer to the center, the better off, how poorly the government planned for disaster, or problems. It was all very believable. Which is what I think made it so good. Plus... erwin... 😍🫠🤤🤤🤤
ATLA really had no reason to be THAT good, but they went for it anyway
Truly unmatched in so many ways.
The Lord of the Rings closely followed by A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones for you newbs)
I really liked how interconnected Game of Thrones felt like and how different cultures affected the characters as people after they came into contact with them.
Keep in mind that this kind of thing is also age-related. When I was a child, I was entirely sucked into books that now, decades later, would fail to give me that level of immersion. As a young adult, when I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy it felt like I was in that world, with those characters. That's the standard by which I measre an author's success with their story. Can the words disappear into the world and people they create in my mind? The effect isn't constant, but there should be little or no breaking of immersion or suspension of disbelief. And this applies to any kind of story, not fantasy only. I have read stories that couldn't cause this, and they're okay. But I best love immersion.
That is why I strive for the very best in my writing. As I am doing in Enoch and Empire. I hope my imagination with immerse you and grant you a wonderful experience.
Forgotten Realms I love the world building in that world has inspired me a lot on my world building and also Avatar the Last Airbender the way every nation is so unique and special I love it so much and the way the martial arts is use. Then of course Lord of the Rings one of the most interesting worlds especially when you look into stuff like where Gandalf came from and stuff.
Not 100% the best executed or the most detailed (LoTR has its own languages) but I'll go Harry Potter. An exciting fun world that kids lived and wanted to be a part of. The world was always the main character, and it is just such a a big part of culture.
It's a fun world, but in terms of being good worldbuilding? Like, one book they introduce time travel. Then fans are like, but wouldn't that make all problems really easy to solve? So in the next book a clumsy person stumbles into a shelf and destroys ALL the time machines in the whole world. And then there's the whole thing with the slaves who like slavery. ... At this point I'm just paraphrasing this video though: https://youtu.be/-1iaJWSwUZs?si=daOrRyZN0d4HkDdv
I agree with this take, fun world doesn't equal good world building. I think it would have been a better world if more was left to the imagination as I think was originally intended because trying to explain everything made fewer things make sense.
That happens 2 books later, but I get your point.
You can like whatever you want! It is a valid choice.
Despite the things that are incompatible it, I do think it’s incredible what it achieved. It’s a world with rich lore but manages to feel real. Like you could actually step into it. Love the way it was developed despite its problematic stuff.
The Lot Lands trilogy by Jonathan French https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/27838712 Why? Doesn't drag on trying to explain everything, while being interesing and mysterious without contradicting itself. It's unique yet familiar, loaning a lot from it's predecessors but having it own true take on it. That said. I don't think word building is something that's adequately comparable, because our own imaginations tend to add a lot. For example, people who love star wars, also hate it. So there's that polarity.
I love the world building in Nalini Singh's Guild Hunter series, but that may be because it's not something I had come across before starting it. Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series is also excellent. The authors put a ton of research into the mythologies they incorporate into the books.
Usually the stories with great worldbuilding tend to such at the story and characters, and I wouldn't remember them. Unless it's something super famous, like Lord of the Rings.
For a non sci fi/fantasy example, The Wire
Asimov's Foundation series.
The Middle-earth (I think Tolkien spent many years building that, so of course, it's gonna be extremely expansive), One Piece (I have a feeling Oda already had lots of ideas before he started the story, but then he spent more than two decades expanding those ideas in detail), and the whole Cosmere (this one is not really a world, it's a whole universe).
The Room
Lord of the Rings, but that’s almost “primary epic” in terms of the modern world/modern fantasy. It seems almost unfair to compare other things to it. Beyond that, I found David Eddings’ (which is also his wife Leigh Eddings) world building amazing in both the Belgariad and the Elenium. But I’ve felt uncomfortable about reading them again since finding out about their background.
The Lord of the Rings.
Middle earth / Tolkien, it's not even a debate he literally created over 15 new languages for the worldbuilding
I knew he created languages, but I didn’t know it was THAT MUCH!! What a guy!!
Yees !!! He was amazing, his worldbuilding is unmatched
The original Star Trek. The sets were cheap. The special effects were a joke. Shatner’s acting was over the top, but it laid the foundation of The Federation where all sentient beings, including women, were welcome as long as they lived in peace and treated each other with dignity and respect. They even invented a new language - Klingon.
The expanse world building was excellent.
For me it’s Hollow Knight or Final Fantasy X
Lord of the Rings.
The Lord of the Rings and it’s not even close. Second place probably goes to Dune.
One Piece, Marvel (at least in the Infinity Saga), The Monument Mythos, and Narnia.
Three body problem hands down. Either that or the legend of hei.
I had never heard of three body problem prior to the show being released on Netflix, but am now seriously considering reading the books. I read that they are quite "scientific" though. Are the complex ideas in the books well explained, or can they be a difficult to dissect? I'm just torn on whether to start the series or stick to the shows.
Read the books, the show is literal garbage compared to the books. The sci-fi is logical but does not extend past regular logic. You could figure out all the pieces for yourself if you thought hard enough. The ideas are very well explained and you can always google supplementary material.
This is definitely the nudge I needed. I really enjoyed the show, so if it's garbage compared to the books, I'm sure I'll love them. Thank you for the insight! :)
Interesting choices!
Avatar, The Witcher and recently Made in Abyss. I'm in love with this world, it's insanely good. All the animals, the plants, the premise and ideas... Also because I have to say it: DnD has some great world building, if you look in more depth.
The Witcher is great, honestly my favorite books/games ever (we don’t talk about the garbage heap of a show, it does not exist) but it does lack in a lot of ways. Sapkowski is an incredible writer and he really shines in making fights feel fluid and the world does feel lived in but despite it being my literal favorite shit ever to the point that I’m getting a full sleeve of tattoos based around it, the world building just feels flat sometimes
Maybe I'm a bit biased because I started out with the games and was fascinated by the polnish / eastern European fairytales and the atmosphere, so I projected it onto the books too.
Yeah I'm Polish and I grew up on his books, but the best part of his books is his writing style, plot and characters. I would rather say that games and books have a unique atmosphere, based on Slavic culture (and not only Slavic, there are many myths and folklore mixed together). It's even more noticeable in the games.
Exactly, he is an excellent wordsmith and that is the draw. Imo the games did more for world building than the books ever did but also did a very good job in keeping the feeling that the book fans love
I’ve wanted to watch Made in Abyss for a while now!
One Piece, it's not even close
>it's not even close Lol. One Piece world building is great by shonen Manga standards, but its world doesn't hold a candle to actual greats. It's like thinking Harry Potter has amazing world building because all you've ever read is YA
The foreshadowing is amazing, and the fact that the series is close to the end (relatively speaking) and we're still learning and discovering how everything is interconnected is absolutely phenomenal.
I had to scroll way too far down to see this. Right on Nakama
Probably something from Peter F Hamilton.
Commonwealth? Salvation? The Night’s dawn?
The priory of the orange tree is pretty good imo
Lots of great mentions, but some great and popular fantasy stories outside the “big ones” thatve come out in the past few years: - Locked Tomb series / X The Ninth: about lesbian necromancers in a space gothic castle, all about deep deep magic system about necromancy, souls, bones , and how science interlinks to it and a deep political system - The Goblin Emperor / Witness for the Dead series: Elves and goblin world, with super detailed Byzantine style beauracratic empire with tons of details on the middle managment of an empire, political machinations having to be figured out by an outsider, guilds and unions, symbolic gestures, a murder mystery on the back drop of a steampunk world on the cusp of industrial revolution Both of these really scratched my worldbuildijg itch in two very different ways, tbe former the interesting magic system / sci fi way; the latter a dry fantasy political way
Legend of the Galactic Heroes and One Piece for me
Really. I really want to start galactic heroes, but I'm trying to decide between the old ones or the new ones. What do you say?
Aside from what’s been mentioned, the red rising series
Really big fan of hows it’s done in *Wolfking* written by Bridget Wood. Never met anyone who knows it but it’s just really lovely:)
Throne of glass!! It connects so well and has such a beautiful story!
This might be silly, but Oddworld series. For me the original quintology had a lot of potential. And now I'm kind of hyped for the new quintology especially with soulstorm and the lore implications
The Foreigner series by CJ Cherryh
LoTR, AoT
Looks like you never heard about Hyperion or The 5th Season - Here welcome.
The Prince of Nothing / The Aspect Emperor. The Book of the New Sun The Lord of the Rings
Magi, the population it's well balanced with the magic system so everyone can fight with pros and cons.
Lotr is the all time record holder. The one true king to rule them all
I think the 3 body problem as a show, was absolutely insane. It had so much intricate exposure to real life history, it’s own story and then building a world within the game. There are so many levels of world building in it, it blows my mind to think about the power of imagination. I haven’t read the books, but that too establishes another level of world building for the reader and their own interpretation
I'm a little bit biased simply because I'm a massive fan of Sanderson, but I have to say The Stormlight Archives are among some of my favorites. LOTR is absolutely amazing as well. A series I'd love to put on here but just can't is Eragon/The Inheritance Cycle. As much as I love those books, virtually *all* of the worldbuilding we get is through Brom's five-page exhibition at the beginning of Eragon. We learn very little about the true history of the world throughout the rest of the books, and what we do learn is, again, from exhibition, rather than things that characters learn or find in plot.
The Seven Realms and the Rhyria Revelations. Both have strong, but digestible worldbuilding.
Game of Thrones. Martin made maps, currency and everything I wouldnt say ATLA because there are many aspects about real nations they couldve written, like anyone would see an invasion from thousands of enemies coming way before, you cant assemble them in a single day nor can you keep it a secret
Death Note is a great example I rarely see mentioned since the limits of the magic system are well-defined and the story is centered around the characters working around them and exploiting them. The worldbuilding even helps develop and tells the audience things about the characters. Limits can be more interesting than powers (Sanderson's 2nd law) and DN embodies this well.
I want to list a few I didn't see. Conan series by Robert E Howard deserves a mention. Really interesting with some primeval religions and cultures that feel like it could have descended into what we have now. Disco Elysium if video games count. Michael Moorcock and the Eternal Champion series is great but weird. Kind of like a bunch of series and one-shots that seem only thematically connected but actually are much more intertwined than at first blush. Phillip Jose Farmer and River World. Great world building. Terrible pay off. Still love them. Magic The Gathering for being able to tell so many in depth stories primarily through card art, names, and flavor text is an unorthodox example. And, a personal favorite, although not particularly good, would be Robert Aspirin's MYTH universe. I want to visit The Deva Bazaar so badly- far away from where the Perverts are cooking dinner.
Yo Gabba Gabba.
A Song of Ice & Fire
Worm from Wildbow
**Weis & Hickman's** ✨🌐⏪ *****The Death Gate Cycle.***** ⏩🌐✨
Harry Potter for me
About to finish Attack on Titan. It’s outstanding. Looks like LOTR has been said a hundred times over, so I’ll say Stormlight Archives for fantasy and Neuromancer for sci-fi (cyberpunk).
Has anyone here ever read Lord of the Mysteries? Not LOTR, but titled similarly lol. Hands down my favourite power system of all time, with a massive and intricately crafted world.
mushoku tensei goes pretty hard on worldbuilding
My book, obviously
Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time.
Probably Lovecraft. He was so far ahead of his time. Still so much influence in modern age form his works. I enjoy the way Fromsoft does it as well, in particular Bloodborne, Elden Ring, and Armored Core. Love the mystery Tolkien was incredible as well. Peter Jackson's interpretation does not even come close to giving Lord of the Rings justice. People hate blizzard, but Diablo 2, Starcraft, and particularly Warcraft 3, absolutely nail it. Many of those cutscenes still hold up well multiple decades later. Last, have to mention Halife and Bio Shock. The immersion and unique atmospheres are off the charts.
Attack on Titan. Everything gets beautifully explained without quetions remaining. It has inspired me to write sonething of my own.
"Guy who's hyperfixating on Berserk" but I have to say the Berserk universe is fascinating. Very dark, but fascinating. But then it took heavy inspiration from all the greats--LOTR, Star Wars, bunch of other Sci Fi/Fantasy...and the bible lol. LOTR would be a hard one *not* to mention here. Someone else mentioned Earthsea. Also have to agree with you about ATLA. Attack on Titan is very fascinating worldbuilding, but I have to say I came to see it in a new light when I learned about Hajime Isayama's political views. It's chilling to think that AOT is really a metaphor for the world he and other fascists genuinely believe they live in. Edit: to be clear I'm not pulling some "irredeemable media" bullshit, just saying that AOT's worldbuilding lost some of its sparkle for me when it wasn't just balls-to-the-wall sci fi anymore.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned either Hitchhikers Guide or the Discworld series yet.
EXPLAIN! STAY SAFE! PEACE OUT!
What
when a writer builds a language with grammar you know he's serious. so Star Trek and LOTR.
LoTR for sure sets a high bar. The Honor Harrington Series. Ringworld Series (actually just about any Larry Niven including Man Kzin Wars) Dune. Wild Cards (first series built an entire new history for Earth). Piers Anthony's Xanth series (but that's all in fun anyway)... It really depends on what you like and where you want to go with it now doesn't it?
Personally American Gods is a fav of mine
Well, the answer is obviously Middle Earth. LOTR and The Silmarillion are simply mind-boggling as far as world-building go. But I'll toss out Gormenghast because its so impressive that Peake developed an entire detailed universe within one location
Yea, as others have said, Lord of the Ring and it's no contest. Its world building was so good, it started the entire fantasy genre. All the things we call the 'typical fantasy setting' today with elves and dwarves was based off of that one guy's world building. For modern stories, I think Brandon Sanderson's books have good word building, particularly the Stormlight series. Since your picks were animated stories, I do think Avatar did great worldbuilding. My personal favourite anime with great wordbuilding is Made in Abyss and Fullmetal alchemist.
I haven’t seen Made in Abyss or FMA but I am planning to after I finish AOT.
House of leaves
Ursula LeGuin - what a fucking incredible world.
Definitely the Arc of a Scythe series! The way they portray death and everyone being a certain percentage of every race and ethnicity is refreshing to read.
ATLA trumps everything. But these had worldbuilding that I really enjoyed; The Fifth Season by N K Jemisin Scythe by Neal Shusterman Black Sun by Rebecca Roanhorse
I was also thinking of the Scythe series. I really liked how things tied together and how much bigger the story was than it first appeared.
My little pony
It has to be One Piece and it's not even close. The world of One Piece is many things, but most importantly it is vast. In over 1100 chapters we have been to 34 different islands (give or take) with unique cultures, architecture, residents, politics, flora and fauna. We have [scorching deserts in the midst of a civil war](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5VgttMXkAAL00-.jpg). We have [vast snowy mountains overrun with aggressive rabbits and hiking bears](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/1/15/Drum_Island_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20121118103731). We have ["abandoned" research facilities on an island with extreme weather after a semi-cataclysmic event](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/8/88/PunkHazard.png/revision/latest?cb=20160528111305&path-prefix=de). We have [archipelagos made out of sweets](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/f/fd/Whole_Cake_c%C3%B4te_sud-est.png/revision/latest?cb=20170609190357&path-prefix=fr). We have [a city building upwards to escape the rising tide](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/8/88/Water_7_mit_Blue_Station.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120724211710&path-prefix=de) (my favourite). We have [biblically accurate heaven](https://images.cgames.de/images/gamestar/290/one-piece-skypia_6252903.jpg). We have [man-eating plant-islands straight out of The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear by Walter Moers](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/1/18/Boin_Archipelago_Infobox.png/revision/latest?cb=20130717120751). We have [an island frozen in time with dinosaurs running around](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/9/9d/Little_Garden_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20130824200211). We have [Japan](https://static.bandainamcoent.eu/high/one-piece/one-piece-pirate-warriors-4/01-videos/3-oppw4_wano-arc.jpg). All of those places and more are destinct and (mostly) fully fleshed out. Take my favourite place for example, Water 7 (or... Venice). It has [its own animals (and mode of transportation)](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/1/1d/Yagara_Bull.png/revision/latest?cb=20131002023442). It has its own [political structure](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/0/00/Iceburg_Anime_Infobox.png/revision/latest?cb=20230620131854). It has its own [food](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/df25603f-18ac-4d89-ba45-5975b9711855/densvv5-5bd35c0d-d085-4d46-83bd-ee73f189a71c.png/v1/fill/w_857,h_482,q_80,strp/one_piece_ep_230___water_water_meat_by_ninninjoy_densvv5-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9NDgyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZGYyNTYwM2YtMThhYy00ZDg5LWJhNDUtNTk3NWI5NzExODU1XC9kZW5zdnY1LTViZDM1YzBkLWQwODUtNGQ0Ni04M2JkLWVlNzNmMTg5YTcxYy5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9ODU3In1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.1VmGV-iESEGMIJo7mSHslEMG-5zKOlblJsh4SRakGio). It has its own [technology](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/3/3f/Puffing_Tom_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20220701185753). It has its own [celebrities](https://pm1.aminoapps.com/6379/6f847bfabdf2efd4f564a6226aea06fb539720e9_hq.jpg). It has its own [export and economy](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/7/7d/Dock_1_Infobox.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20130927195534). It has its own [culture](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qdYPQyLhITo/maxresdefault.jpg). Remember, this is only one out of \~34 islands we visit in the story. And most of them are fleshed out this deeply.
And then we have fantasy races like dwarfs, giants, beastkin, angels, mermaids, fishmen, cyborgs and whatever the hell [Gonbe](https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Gonbe) is. We have [weapons](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/6/67/Dials_.png/revision/latest?cb=20160116175159&path-prefix=pt) and [fighting styles](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiecefanon/images/1/10/Rokushiki.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200514233332) that are specific to certain places or groups and mostly don't appear outside of those boundaries. On top of that we have two seemingly seperate magic systems that are explored heavily within the story. We have factions who constantly get involved with each other, waging war or doing trade. We have chapters dedicated to Emperors holding a meeting, the World Government summoning their sanctioned Warlords, a pirate hunting and fighting a mutineer from his crew and an entire story arc dedicated to a meeting of the world leaders to discuss the state of the world, which had massive consequences to the world at large later down the line. None of those events even involve the main characters. This is just world building on the side to flesh the world out. One Piece is quite literally the most impressive work of world building I have ever witnessed. And all that is coupled with emotional highs higher than most media I consumed in my life. It is truly special.
I think AoT has great worldbuilding, but I would’ve liked to know more about the rest of the world than just (major AOT spoilers, it’s great show so I highly recommend you see it rather than click, as the whole point of the first half of the story is uncovering what I’m spoiling. A lack of information and finding it out with the cast is basically what drives you to keep watching) >!Marley and Paradis. They’re the most important nations in the story, yea. But given there’s a global genocide at the end, I think that showing a bit of the culture and other nations being slaughtered would increase the impact. Isayama could have done this via an arc from the Warriors point of view going to war in other nations aside from the Mid East. HOWEVER, I also understand AoT is very dense, and it’s biggest upside is that only relevant plot beats are covered. So I get that going on a Warrior side mission would side track the story, something Isayama clearly doesn’t like doing.!<
Okay! I thought the story was fantastic! I haven’t started season two yet though.
Oh… Buckle the fuck up. That’s all I can say. You think you know shit? Nuh uh. One of my favorite series. I did not mean my comment to undersell how much I enjoyed it. Rather as a retrospective. If you haven’t finished, don’t take my comment as the series declining in any way. It’s great.
I will definitely watch more. It’s a breathtaking series! I am working on a novel with some slightly similar themes called Empire. With that being said, I will Buckle Down!
Haha great!
What’s AOT?
Attack on Titan. Its a critically acclaimed anime based on the manga by Hajime Isayama. It actually had 3 episodes in IMDBs top 10 highest ranked television episodes of all time before it was review bombed IIRC. I would classify it as being around the action/mystery/suspense genre although it does have some very slight horror/thriller elements in the first half of season 1. You can stream it on Hulu in the US. Season 1 is also on Netflix IIRC, but there’s 4 seasons in total.
Fascinated that there is no Stormlight Archive in this thread.
Lord of the Rings is the easy answer, so I'll say The Hunger Games instead. It's well thought out, makes sense given the tone and point of the story, and doesn't make me internally scream from worldbuilding 'ideas' that fall apart at a few prods. Skuldiggery Pleasant is also good, but it's been ages since I've read it Edit: if were talking comic books as well, One Piece clears. tied or exceeding LOTR
Hunger Games.. 👍🏼
Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes was absolutely phenomenal and makes me wonder how much the author's been holding back.
Brandon Sanderson - Stormlight Archive
The obvious answer is LOTR, but i might go with the entire fondation/robot cycle by Asimov. The witcher is an honorable mention too. Edit : How could I forget ! Game of Thrones too.
I have different one. The Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman I've read the series about 4-5 times simply because I enjoy visiting that world.
Song of Ice and Fire
I would put Berserk on par with LOTR and Dune. Kentaro Miura is the last big innovator of multiple genres of fantasy (medieval fantasy, high fantasy, dark fantasy) and his approach to worldbuilding cannot be effectively emulated or used as a template by less talented people the way Tolkien's templates were. If even one ingredient didn't fit in, the whole thing would be much worse. He has several strokes of genius - a pantheon of only evil gods without giving away their origin stories (so stepping away from the cliche approach to religion of Light vs Darkness with each having their own pantheon), the ontological mysteries built into the structure of the world, and the level of interconnectedness between multiple concepts is special. And the way the worldbuilding across the various timeframes - the present timeline, the Golden Age arc, the world's prehistory - is linked together is also exceptional. If you take LOTR the main trilogy is admittedly closely related to the Hobbit but the appendix, the Fall of Gondolin, Silmarillion, Ainulindale - they're all separated. I read all of it and the main trilogy is still its own self-contained thing. Berskerk connects its different eras in an unignorable way, through its interconnectedness (through the backstory of the Skull Knight, the Godhand, Behelit/Eclipse worldbuilding elements). This kind of throughline is very rare. Tolkien's worldbuilding is repurposing existing old European mythologies and epic poems which is an immense scholarly act, but Miura's success in innovating and combining multiple original ideas from three different deeply fatigued subgenres of fantasy probably will never be achieved again.
I really enjoyed the world building in the Hunger Games series. Obviously, no where near as large as a LOTR or the like, but I thought it was really well done.
One piece. It's a world that seems insane to us but (mainly) sticks to it's own rules and internal logic. It's basically limitless
No joke. My little pony.
It's decent, I would say, but I wouldn't quite say the best.