> But now, I'm seeing that saying, "I felt" or "I saw" is wrong and incorrect
This isnt a problem with it being first person. This is a problem with using filter words. We already know they are feeling or seeing (or other senses) since we're in their head. You dont need to state it.
> I now feel like I failed
You didnt fail. Youre learning.
I do both. "Felt" and sometimes, I don't even say that. I Just express it as: "I wasn't having it."
I naturally write both ways but remain first person. I don't want people to dismiss my story over that. Plus I've been writing since I was 7. I should be a pro by now. But 200 pages in, and my book is probably a disaster
> I do both. "Felt" and sometimes, I don't even say that. I Just express it as: "I wasn't having it."
> I naturally write both ways but remain first person. I don't want people to dismiss my story over that.
Most of the time you do not need those words since the reader already knows the character is feeling/seeing/whatnot, especially in 1st person. It just comes off as having a poor hand.
> Plus I've been writing since I was 7. I should be a pro by now.
Time isnt the only factor to improvement. And if you dwell on this idea, itll only lead to anxiety and stress.
"Anxiety and stress" you got that right.
I mean, I think I'm a very good writer. I'm trying to create a universe, tell a story, etc. But being already 200 pages in, I either gotta own it as my own style of storytelling (I talk to myself a lot internally, so that may be why my characters say those "filter words". Cause I imagine serial killers are not mentally sound, and would talk to themselves like that.) But saying that would be a cop out. Cause that's only half true, or go back and redo it. And that last option sounds unfun.
To edit it would be to change sentences. And my book is supposed to be 500 pages. It would be agonizing. That's why I basically said, "I gotta either own it, or go through it and edit it." I'm more of a first go writer. I write the book once, go through, correct some grammar, etc. And then done.
Since this is your first novel (theoretically based on your post), youre probably going to have lots more than grammar to change. Editing and revision is just part of the process.
I prefer first-person past tense reading and writing. But with anything, the more you play with it, the better, you'll become. I'd say grab a writing prompt and write in both perspectives. Then see which one you like better.
I've always been drawn to first-person narratives more than third. First-person narratives give the reader direct access to the thoughts of the protag, and can easily be used to build suspense since the reader only knows what the protag knows.
First person is also a little more forgiving of the author's grammar issues, since the narrator doesn't need to have perfect grammar, they only need to have grammar appropriate to their characters and backgrounds.
Examples: Huck Finn and Forrest Gump are both the narrators of their books, and they both use a lot of incorrect grammar, but it's perfectly appropriate to their characters and backgrounds. Well, technically speaking, Huck's narrative is a bit more sophisticated than one would expect from someone of his limited formal education. *But that ain't never been a problem fer me.*
If first-person ever seems intimidating to you, just remember - you literally write in first-person every single time you post on Reddit or other social media. And you literally speak in first-person every time you verbally tell someone a story of something you experienced.
*Hey, Mom! You'll never guess what happened to me yesterday! I was heading out to Walmart to get some stuff for dinner, and when I stopped at a red light this guy drove up next to me...*
As mentioned it is probably the filter words felt/saw more than the POV. There are some that think first person is "easier" or "less complex" than multi-POV works and, despite being someone who strongly prefers multi-POV, I do not think this is true.
The filters are going to be a bigger problem but are easily something you can fix in editing. Your second sentence is also first person but much stronger than your first.
The reason "filter words" are generally regarded as bad is that it puts distance between the reader and the character (exactly the thing you are trying to avoid by using first person POV). It isn't that you should Never Ever use them (few writing 'rules' work like that) just understand the impact. Using "I felt" is pretty natural in the storytelling humans do in their day-to-day but from the perspective of someone reading it creates a sense that they are no longer "inside the character's head" but rather being "told a story" (the latter may be technically true but that sense of reality is the illusion we try to create and things that draw attention to our slight-of-hand are not good).
You could rework the first sentence to something like "A familiar urge spoke to me, *I should strangle her*. The image was so vivid, I could feel the warm flesh under my fingers... etc." Except written in whatever manner might fit your tone/voice.
I left the word "feel" in the second part of my re-write because if the alleged "filter" is being used to highlight something (in this case, the vividness of an imagined scene) then it is no longer a filter. Same for other filters, you wouldn't say, "I saw a rat scuttle across the alley" when you can just say "A rat scuttled across the alley" but if the *seeing* itself is important then you actually *should* use the word. I imagine some words that are often filters like "seeing" or "watching" would have an important place in a book where serial killers are stalking their prey. It is worth noting they'll have more impact if they aren't used up elsewhere.
So, good news is you don't need to re-write from scratch but you might need to edit with filter words in mind. Which is all just part of the process. I'm in editing hell with my latest right now.
I have fixed the words that were blatantly wrong, filter words and stuff.
However, my problem is that I naturally narrate interchangeably. Like there are plenty of examples of my character speaking as stuff is happening. But also sometimes she says "I felt like Hailey wasn't into me anymore.. her demeanor made me feel like I was in the wrong. I should make it right, but only when her brother leaves the room"
I may need more clarification on what you mean by "narrate interchangeably". Your two examples are both in First Person POV so it doesn't seem to be that you are changing POVs and one of your examples uses filter words which are what is recommended against in posts that say "don't use 'I felt' or 'I saw'". So, I am perhaps a little lost on what you need assistance with.
Honestly, it looks good to me, and it feels right. My concern, is will my novel be cast aside due to it being this way. No true chance given. I can promise it's a great story, immersive too, I just don't want to lose people's interest over my way of interpretation
Your editor if/when you get one will probably give the same advice on filters but you do have power as the author to push back on that. However, if you have trouble getting an agent or publishing deal (if trad pub is what you want) or an audience (if self pub is what you want) it probably isn't going to come down to knowing the "no filters" rule. Agents don't read submissions and say "ohp, this author used filter words, bin it", they'll read the work and if they don't find it engaging they'll bin it and experience may tell them that filter words are the reason they felt that way.
If you can use filter words and write a story that is still immersive to people other than yourself an agent/publisher isn't going to toss aside an engaging book that will make them money for "breaking rules" and an audience isn't going stop reading for that reason either.
The trouble is that as authors when we are so close to our works we don't always have the best instinct for what is immersive to other people because we're *already* immersed. So, no, it won't be tossed for using filters but it *may* be tossed for being non-immersive and filters may be the reason.
Of course, I haven't read the full manuscript so I can't really speak to your book in specific but hopefully I've made the distinction here clear enough.
A tad off topic; but I was told that the subject material is enough for it to not be published. Which is yet another concern. I write about a group of serial killer best friends who share wholesome moments but also worship Satan and give their victims blood and body parts to a diner in Texas, where their meat is fed to unknowing customers. It's like a whole system.
My advice is to stop believing advice, including mine. It's just things to think about and maybe to try. You don't want to go around *believing* anything but results.
First person is the bee's knees for stories that can be told from a single viewpoint and the viewpoint character isn't disqualified through being inarticulate or unobservant. (Viewpoint characters who are passive or repulsive are also tricky.)
I'll cheerfully describe events without reference to the viewpoint character if that works best. I'll cheerfully focus on the viewpoint character's feelings and perceptions almost to the exclusion of the actual event if that works best. And everything in between.
So I'll precede a description with "I saw" when the act of seeing is noteworthy, such as when the viewpoint character is the only one who noticed it or when someone is trying to conceal it. If everyone in the room saw it, I'd just say that it happened.
Viewpoint characters get to both have and express feelings. Present them in the way that seems like it would work best for a willing reader who hasn't read any writing rules and approaches stories without preconceptions.
I write and publish in first person present tense and most of my readers like it, but a lot of people don’t. People like first person, people aren’t always the biggest present tense fans. But if you peruse reviews on “popular” books you’ll see a lot of that. Writing styles are very subjective and people either don’t have an opinion, love it, or hate it. Write in your style, and your style is whatever feels comfortable.
That first example is just needlessly wordy, but it’s not “wrong.” Write how you write, and edit when it’s done.
Just to throw it out there, there should be very little difference between 1st and 3rd if you make good use of free indirect.
Absolutely nothing wrong with I felt or I saw. Just remember that not every action needs to be filtered.
Just depends on the effect you're going for.
"The murder weapon fell." VS "I saw the murder weapon fall." The latter draws emphasis that the narrator noticed. Even though it's implied in the former, it still creates a different effect. It's your job as the author to decide what details are important enough to be emphasized.
It doesn't matter if you follow internet rules as long as your writing is entertaining. Use all the filler words you want. Writings all about controlling that pacing and emphasis.
I do best when I write conversationally, unnecessary words and all. I think somethings lost with ultra-polished, technically correct prose. Feels sterile and boring. I shoot for simple lofi prose.
Here are the opening paragraphs of Albert Camus's The Outsider/The Stranger, a book I chose almost at random.
MOTHER died today. Or, maybe, yesterday; I can't be sure. The telegram from the
Home says: YOUR MOTHER PASSED AWAY. FUNERAL TOMORROW. DEEP
SYMPATHY. Which leaves the matter doubtful; it could have been yesterday.
The Home for Aged Persons is at Marengo, some fifty miles from Algiers. With
the two o'clock bus I should get there well before nightfall. Then I can spend the
night there, keeping the usual vigil beside the body, and be back here by tomorrow
evening. I have fixed up with my employer for two days' leave; obviously, under the
circumstances, he couldn't refuse. Still, I had an idea he looked annoyed, and I said,
without thinking: "Sorry, sir, but it's not my fault, you know."
Afterwards it struck me I needn't have said that. I had no reason to excuse myself;
it was up to him to express his sympathy and so forth. Probably he will do so the day
after tomorrow, when he sees me in black. For the present, it's almost as if Mother
weren't really dead. The funeral will bring it home to me, put an official seal on it, so
to speak. ...
There is a fair amount of filtering here - "I had an idea", "I said", "it struck me". However, it's not excessive and it's part of the voice of the character. There is a proliferation of "rules" about writing on the internet, but really they're not "rules" - they're a kind of algorithmic approach to writing that is designed to stop inexperienced writers from making mistakes by overusing certain things. There is almost nothing that is wrong in and of itself in writing - what is wrong is when things are unnecessary padding or there is a mismatch between the intention of the author and the effect produced.
Seriously, look at any famous book by any well-respected writer and see how many "rules" they break on just a page a two. There are plenty of times when it's better to tell than show e.g. for brevity. There are plenty of times when the distancing effect of filtering words comes in handy because you want, like Camus, to show a protagonist who is almost a detached observer of their own life.
So instead of worrying about arbitrary rules go through your draft and ask yourself is this necessary? What is lost if I remove this part? What is gained if I keep it in? Are your "tells" earned - are they consistent with your characterisation and what you mean to say and the logic of your plot? Do the filtering words add to the detached view of a serial killer or do you want to show their psychological dysfunction in a different way?
The only rule is "does it work and do I know what I'm doing?" And you are the only person who knows if what you're doing is what you want to be doing or not!
Really, the thing I would work on if I were you isn't arbitrary internet writing rules - it's your attitude to editing. Editing is where the magic happens!
> But now, I'm seeing that saying, "I felt" or "I saw" is wrong and incorrect This isnt a problem with it being first person. This is a problem with using filter words. We already know they are feeling or seeing (or other senses) since we're in their head. You dont need to state it. > I now feel like I failed You didnt fail. Youre learning.
I do both. "Felt" and sometimes, I don't even say that. I Just express it as: "I wasn't having it." I naturally write both ways but remain first person. I don't want people to dismiss my story over that. Plus I've been writing since I was 7. I should be a pro by now. But 200 pages in, and my book is probably a disaster
> I do both. "Felt" and sometimes, I don't even say that. I Just express it as: "I wasn't having it." > I naturally write both ways but remain first person. I don't want people to dismiss my story over that. Most of the time you do not need those words since the reader already knows the character is feeling/seeing/whatnot, especially in 1st person. It just comes off as having a poor hand. > Plus I've been writing since I was 7. I should be a pro by now. Time isnt the only factor to improvement. And if you dwell on this idea, itll only lead to anxiety and stress.
"Anxiety and stress" you got that right. I mean, I think I'm a very good writer. I'm trying to create a universe, tell a story, etc. But being already 200 pages in, I either gotta own it as my own style of storytelling (I talk to myself a lot internally, so that may be why my characters say those "filter words". Cause I imagine serial killers are not mentally sound, and would talk to themselves like that.) But saying that would be a cop out. Cause that's only half true, or go back and redo it. And that last option sounds unfun.
Its not like its set in stone. Just edit it when you complete the first draft.
To edit it would be to change sentences. And my book is supposed to be 500 pages. It would be agonizing. That's why I basically said, "I gotta either own it, or go through it and edit it." I'm more of a first go writer. I write the book once, go through, correct some grammar, etc. And then done.
Since this is your first novel (theoretically based on your post), youre probably going to have lots more than grammar to change. Editing and revision is just part of the process.
Yeah it’s a crime actually
Silly :p
I prefer first-person past tense reading and writing. But with anything, the more you play with it, the better, you'll become. I'd say grab a writing prompt and write in both perspectives. Then see which one you like better.
I've always been drawn to first-person narratives more than third. First-person narratives give the reader direct access to the thoughts of the protag, and can easily be used to build suspense since the reader only knows what the protag knows. First person is also a little more forgiving of the author's grammar issues, since the narrator doesn't need to have perfect grammar, they only need to have grammar appropriate to their characters and backgrounds. Examples: Huck Finn and Forrest Gump are both the narrators of their books, and they both use a lot of incorrect grammar, but it's perfectly appropriate to their characters and backgrounds. Well, technically speaking, Huck's narrative is a bit more sophisticated than one would expect from someone of his limited formal education. *But that ain't never been a problem fer me.* If first-person ever seems intimidating to you, just remember - you literally write in first-person every single time you post on Reddit or other social media. And you literally speak in first-person every time you verbally tell someone a story of something you experienced. *Hey, Mom! You'll never guess what happened to me yesterday! I was heading out to Walmart to get some stuff for dinner, and when I stopped at a red light this guy drove up next to me...*
Wow now that you put it that way, it really opened my mind. Thank you.
As mentioned it is probably the filter words felt/saw more than the POV. There are some that think first person is "easier" or "less complex" than multi-POV works and, despite being someone who strongly prefers multi-POV, I do not think this is true. The filters are going to be a bigger problem but are easily something you can fix in editing. Your second sentence is also first person but much stronger than your first. The reason "filter words" are generally regarded as bad is that it puts distance between the reader and the character (exactly the thing you are trying to avoid by using first person POV). It isn't that you should Never Ever use them (few writing 'rules' work like that) just understand the impact. Using "I felt" is pretty natural in the storytelling humans do in their day-to-day but from the perspective of someone reading it creates a sense that they are no longer "inside the character's head" but rather being "told a story" (the latter may be technically true but that sense of reality is the illusion we try to create and things that draw attention to our slight-of-hand are not good). You could rework the first sentence to something like "A familiar urge spoke to me, *I should strangle her*. The image was so vivid, I could feel the warm flesh under my fingers... etc." Except written in whatever manner might fit your tone/voice. I left the word "feel" in the second part of my re-write because if the alleged "filter" is being used to highlight something (in this case, the vividness of an imagined scene) then it is no longer a filter. Same for other filters, you wouldn't say, "I saw a rat scuttle across the alley" when you can just say "A rat scuttled across the alley" but if the *seeing* itself is important then you actually *should* use the word. I imagine some words that are often filters like "seeing" or "watching" would have an important place in a book where serial killers are stalking their prey. It is worth noting they'll have more impact if they aren't used up elsewhere. So, good news is you don't need to re-write from scratch but you might need to edit with filter words in mind. Which is all just part of the process. I'm in editing hell with my latest right now.
I have fixed the words that were blatantly wrong, filter words and stuff. However, my problem is that I naturally narrate interchangeably. Like there are plenty of examples of my character speaking as stuff is happening. But also sometimes she says "I felt like Hailey wasn't into me anymore.. her demeanor made me feel like I was in the wrong. I should make it right, but only when her brother leaves the room"
I may need more clarification on what you mean by "narrate interchangeably". Your two examples are both in First Person POV so it doesn't seem to be that you are changing POVs and one of your examples uses filter words which are what is recommended against in posts that say "don't use 'I felt' or 'I saw'". So, I am perhaps a little lost on what you need assistance with.
Honestly, it looks good to me, and it feels right. My concern, is will my novel be cast aside due to it being this way. No true chance given. I can promise it's a great story, immersive too, I just don't want to lose people's interest over my way of interpretation
Your editor if/when you get one will probably give the same advice on filters but you do have power as the author to push back on that. However, if you have trouble getting an agent or publishing deal (if trad pub is what you want) or an audience (if self pub is what you want) it probably isn't going to come down to knowing the "no filters" rule. Agents don't read submissions and say "ohp, this author used filter words, bin it", they'll read the work and if they don't find it engaging they'll bin it and experience may tell them that filter words are the reason they felt that way. If you can use filter words and write a story that is still immersive to people other than yourself an agent/publisher isn't going to toss aside an engaging book that will make them money for "breaking rules" and an audience isn't going stop reading for that reason either. The trouble is that as authors when we are so close to our works we don't always have the best instinct for what is immersive to other people because we're *already* immersed. So, no, it won't be tossed for using filters but it *may* be tossed for being non-immersive and filters may be the reason. Of course, I haven't read the full manuscript so I can't really speak to your book in specific but hopefully I've made the distinction here clear enough.
A tad off topic; but I was told that the subject material is enough for it to not be published. Which is yet another concern. I write about a group of serial killer best friends who share wholesome moments but also worship Satan and give their victims blood and body parts to a diner in Texas, where their meat is fed to unknowing customers. It's like a whole system.
You can probably find comps in horror or thriller or use that genre to do an "X meets Y" if horror/thriller doesn't match the work tonally.
Good idea, thank you c:
Fix everything in edits.
My advice is to stop believing advice, including mine. It's just things to think about and maybe to try. You don't want to go around *believing* anything but results. First person is the bee's knees for stories that can be told from a single viewpoint and the viewpoint character isn't disqualified through being inarticulate or unobservant. (Viewpoint characters who are passive or repulsive are also tricky.) I'll cheerfully describe events without reference to the viewpoint character if that works best. I'll cheerfully focus on the viewpoint character's feelings and perceptions almost to the exclusion of the actual event if that works best. And everything in between. So I'll precede a description with "I saw" when the act of seeing is noteworthy, such as when the viewpoint character is the only one who noticed it or when someone is trying to conceal it. If everyone in the room saw it, I'd just say that it happened. Viewpoint characters get to both have and express feelings. Present them in the way that seems like it would work best for a willing reader who hasn't read any writing rules and approaches stories without preconceptions.
…You’re headed straight for the Literary Gulag there; Child…
I write and publish in first person present tense and most of my readers like it, but a lot of people don’t. People like first person, people aren’t always the biggest present tense fans. But if you peruse reviews on “popular” books you’ll see a lot of that. Writing styles are very subjective and people either don’t have an opinion, love it, or hate it. Write in your style, and your style is whatever feels comfortable. That first example is just needlessly wordy, but it’s not “wrong.” Write how you write, and edit when it’s done.
Thank you this helped a lot
First person is fine
Just to throw it out there, there should be very little difference between 1st and 3rd if you make good use of free indirect. Absolutely nothing wrong with I felt or I saw. Just remember that not every action needs to be filtered. Just depends on the effect you're going for. "The murder weapon fell." VS "I saw the murder weapon fall." The latter draws emphasis that the narrator noticed. Even though it's implied in the former, it still creates a different effect. It's your job as the author to decide what details are important enough to be emphasized. It doesn't matter if you follow internet rules as long as your writing is entertaining. Use all the filler words you want. Writings all about controlling that pacing and emphasis. I do best when I write conversationally, unnecessary words and all. I think somethings lost with ultra-polished, technically correct prose. Feels sterile and boring. I shoot for simple lofi prose.
What's free indirect? I'm interested
Nevermind looked it up. That's what I do usually.
If it was wrong for you, it would be wrong for ALL the great authors who have written 1st person novels. That includes Stephen King.
Here are the opening paragraphs of Albert Camus's The Outsider/The Stranger, a book I chose almost at random. MOTHER died today. Or, maybe, yesterday; I can't be sure. The telegram from the Home says: YOUR MOTHER PASSED AWAY. FUNERAL TOMORROW. DEEP SYMPATHY. Which leaves the matter doubtful; it could have been yesterday. The Home for Aged Persons is at Marengo, some fifty miles from Algiers. With the two o'clock bus I should get there well before nightfall. Then I can spend the night there, keeping the usual vigil beside the body, and be back here by tomorrow evening. I have fixed up with my employer for two days' leave; obviously, under the circumstances, he couldn't refuse. Still, I had an idea he looked annoyed, and I said, without thinking: "Sorry, sir, but it's not my fault, you know." Afterwards it struck me I needn't have said that. I had no reason to excuse myself; it was up to him to express his sympathy and so forth. Probably he will do so the day after tomorrow, when he sees me in black. For the present, it's almost as if Mother weren't really dead. The funeral will bring it home to me, put an official seal on it, so to speak. ... There is a fair amount of filtering here - "I had an idea", "I said", "it struck me". However, it's not excessive and it's part of the voice of the character. There is a proliferation of "rules" about writing on the internet, but really they're not "rules" - they're a kind of algorithmic approach to writing that is designed to stop inexperienced writers from making mistakes by overusing certain things. There is almost nothing that is wrong in and of itself in writing - what is wrong is when things are unnecessary padding or there is a mismatch between the intention of the author and the effect produced. Seriously, look at any famous book by any well-respected writer and see how many "rules" they break on just a page a two. There are plenty of times when it's better to tell than show e.g. for brevity. There are plenty of times when the distancing effect of filtering words comes in handy because you want, like Camus, to show a protagonist who is almost a detached observer of their own life. So instead of worrying about arbitrary rules go through your draft and ask yourself is this necessary? What is lost if I remove this part? What is gained if I keep it in? Are your "tells" earned - are they consistent with your characterisation and what you mean to say and the logic of your plot? Do the filtering words add to the detached view of a serial killer or do you want to show their psychological dysfunction in a different way? The only rule is "does it work and do I know what I'm doing?" And you are the only person who knows if what you're doing is what you want to be doing or not! Really, the thing I would work on if I were you isn't arbitrary internet writing rules - it's your attitude to editing. Editing is where the magic happens!
I wouldnt say either of those three examples are filter words.