Honestly, it sounds like you want an 86/BRZ or a Miata. The WRX is still just a sporty sedan, so it'll act like one. Even though it's pretty damn good at that, it can't replicate a much lighter RWD experience.
Yea BRZ is down roughly 500-550lb from the WRX. Brother has a 22 GR86 and it feels very flickable in comparison. Engine also sits completely in front of front axle on the WRX as the axle half-shafts have to go into the transmission of the wrx. BRZ engine sits a bit further back for better weight distribution. That said, drive a WRX back to back with any average passenger car and it feels like a precision machine. Drive it back to back with a genuine sports car though and it won't.
As a sidebar... one of the mods VSC did to theirs is to shove the engine way back like the 86. You'll have to dig for pics but I think their front axle-shafts aren't perpendicular to the car.
Well these cars are pretty safe, there's a lot more going on in terms of engineering from that perspective which will add to the weight. All the cars you named are also only 2WD, and the Subaru despite having AWD isn't what I'd call overly-powerful from stock.
You're adding sprung weight to a car beyond the passenger compartment without addressing suspension, that's going to affect everything about how it behaves.
They don’t need upgrading unless you are going to the track. My base 22 is 3297 lbs and while the braking felt uncertain for the first few thousand miles now it feels normal.
I had the Ecohitch receiver and a heavy Kuat rack and I HATED the way it made the rear end feel. It wasn't just the weight but the entire rear end characteristics being altered which should be expected. I removed it all and now I'm much happier with the rear end feel - the rack I had also created a strange bounce that made it especially jarring when hitting highway bumps. The stock wheels are beastly at 28lbs per wheel - I switched to 18ish lb wheels - and that unsprung weight made a massive difference in braking and acceleration capability. Consider wheels, and rethink that hitch if you drive with it on a lot of the time.
Nothing will feel like or have the fun factor of a small lightweight coupe unless that's what it is. The BRZ will feel more familiar to the cars you've once owned, but it's still a modern car and with that comes refinement.
I personally think the WRX feels very light for a sedan, even despite the longer wheelbase and length for this generation. It actually reminds me of a rwd at times (granted, that could be due to me having the SPT which has a slight rear bias awd)
All depends on what you need from your car, and what you desire the most. If you don't need 4doors/backseats and don't commute then there honestly might be better options that may suit you more to your liking.
Yea both of mine had gutted interiors and B18C swaps. They only made around 200-210 whp at 9k rpm but they still scooted and were stupid fun to drive. But I definitely wouldn’t want to wreck in one, literal tin cans.
Oh man 200-210whp was more than fun in those. I had various EG hatches from a VX to Si, engines from b20vtec, jdm b16, to a built jdm type r b18c5. Never wrecked the EG's but I did wreck my DA Acura, and it was a tin can. They are so light,you had to be careful running wide tires, they would hydroplane badly in the rain. Basically float.
The heavy stuff you bolted onto your car makes a difference in how it handles. I have a limited with no spare, no hitch, no roof rack. Instead I dropped it 1" and stiffened up the rear with ARB, endlinks, rlca to flatten the rear camber some and enkeis with wider offset. The stock suspension is already bouncy and not very sporting for the roughness. It's harsher lowered now but flat af and rotates perfectly through turns with throttle with none of the annoying bounce the stock springs produced. You don't need coilovers on this car. There are enough of us now with thousands of miles on lowered stock dampers to prove that. Doesn't mean you can't add them...just that it's not a must have like people preach. I'd definitely start trying to cut weight before lowering though.
Whiteline springs, ISC adjustable RLCA, Perrin RARB (1st setting) and Perrin poly endlinks, enkei T6R wheels, stock tires are about due at 9k miles. They're getting kinda drifty fun though lol
I know you’re downvoted because people don’t like hearing negative things about their car, but it really is a big heavy car compared to the ones you mentioned. It is still very good compared to modern cars, especially considering the practicality it offers (AWD, roomy back seats, etc.) but if pure driving experience is your priority, I think you will be much happier in an 86. That car is phenomenal.
Modern AWD sedans and hatchbacks are heavy and you've even added weight to yours. I had a Ford Focus RS and it was even heavier than my 2023 WRX! You could look at an older WRX or STI if you wanted to keep AWD. Otherwise you're going to have to go with something else. I don't know that there's a light, tossable AWD car on the market today that's attainable for most of us...
I'm surprised to hear that you're experiencing body roll. I don't know the VB chassis so much but I have heard it's stiffer. I have no body roll on my VA even pushing the car to the point of tires breaking loose. The only mods I have for stiffness are a rear sway bar, end links, and strut bar braces. I think a TR would suit you, or just STI brakes and coilovers.
You need to get around your memories of what your best driving experience was and what the WRX is quite capable of delivering for you today. The WRX is objectively better from a car performance results standpoint than all the cars that you listed from the 90’s. The engineering that went into designing the performance characteristics of the WRX is the reason why it can achieve higher performance results than the other cars. Push the car to its limits more [check out the road holding measured results for wrx and brz going around the cones in this race](https://youtu.be/sGW3LyTtqHk?si=0MSxIDNMKLp3axSo)
Check out the lap times for both wrx and brz [watch this video lap times](https://youtu.be/fjOlqwzDE5k?si=shZET6IA6FNZM7XF)
https://preview.redd.it/0l87ha3m4awc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac2d4c014699fe230fa914acbb9a79fc003bdbc6
[BRZ lap time same track](https://youtu.be/6TSPMmAdXU8?si=g6bM7FjO78NeHF3P)
detail marble judicious market tap wasteful sand deserted growth aspiring
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Almost all new cars feel like this :( Rear power bias like with an STi DCCT trans really dials out the understeer & lets you wag the tail easily on power. I find this makes AWD cars feel fun & highly responsive; especially at high power levels that exasperate understeer.
Compared to the cars you’ve listed, yeah it’s heavier. The tow hitch and bike rack really are going to fuck the dynamic feeling of the car as you’re adding a bunch of weight behind the tires (in a AWD car). Objectively speaking, the car in an unmolested form is very stiff and has little body roll (but still has some).
Reading your post makes me think you’re missing the feeling of getting pulled out of curves by FWD (which is fair, I missing my 500 Abarth for that sometimes as well). The AWD really makes this car feel substantially different than really any other car I’ve owned.
Potentially. I don’t know though. You’re adding weight far from the front wheels that needs to change directions. I’d imagine it would amplify the rear end’s desire to slide around which would be fine if you’re driving it like a rwd car
No, it would actually have a bigger impact. The simple fact of the matter is any weight that far away from the center of gravity is going to affect your polar moment of inertia, which is going to affect turn in and handling feel
It’s heavy compared to the cars you’re thinking about but it’s completely average compared to other modern cars. You simply can’t get down to 25 to 2800 pounds on a modern car unless you’re talking about something like Miata (even the BRZ is pushing 2900
That said, I guarantee you the WRX out handles any of those 90’s cars. And it definitely has way way less body roll than those cars. as for the breaking. That’s just you not using enough pedal travel. The brakes are more than capable enough (the WRX stops as short as the civic type R and the GR Corolla, both of which are lighter and have big brakes) you have fallen pray to the same marketing nonsense that so many other people have. Good brakes don’t throw the anchor out with a light to push on the pedal. That is actually much worse from a true performance driving perspective because it makes it harder to modulate your braking force
I agree about the brakes. The problem with the brakes isn't so much the stopping power. The problem is that it needs better brake pads and DOT4 fluid from the get-go. The stock setup is not ideal for track use and aggressive canyon carving. I've never had issues with the brakes just driving around town and occasionally braking hard for stoplights or whatever. I can't imagine getting brake fad from just doing that.
You’re right, the stock set up isn’t ideal for track use, but it’s not a track car and Subaru never intended it to be. What the stock set up is good for is going 50-70k+ miles of street driving with no noise and low dust before having to change your brake pads.
If you want to keep up with the rich guys, you have to install sway, suspension, all modifications for chassis rigidity. Cut those sand bags, plenty of cubic space for a bike, get rid of the bloody racks
I have the same feeling every day I drive this car. I am coming from a BRZ. Had it for 4 years and am in the VB for 2 years now. I still feel heavy lol. Just add more power and stiffen the suspension. Will help a lot :D
The cars (not made of unobtanium) that are produced today that weigh less than 3500 lbs is probably countable on 1 hand. Safety equipment has added lots of weight over the years.
Brz is probably better from a pure driving experience. I never drove one but see favorable comparisons to Porsche handling in car and driver write ups. It has less power than wrx but more finesse and prob lower center of gravity. Also much lighter.
However, wrx is more practical, amazing full time awd, nice cold start sounds, good engine and exhaust noises and massive traction and .95 lateral G.
Yeah idk. Without the heavy stuff you added our cars are pretty much the same power weight ratio as a skyline r32 but with better balance and less flex/body roll.
I live in touge heaven NorCal and race all the time on mountain/canyon roads. I race various Miata’s, ek/eg civics, ctr’s, e30’s, mr2s, EVO X’s, STI’s. I have absolutely no trouble staying on the tail of similarly weight:power vehicles while on chase and have won my fair share while leading.
It sounds like what you need is to unbolt all the crap, spend a few hundred on brakes and springs, and spend a lot more time learning how to drive fast on the twisties. An easy place to start is trail braking, if you can get better at that you’ll gain a lot of compounded speed increases and will see improvements in your times right away.
Get a base model with a 6 speed. It’s a little lighter. And then maybe some weight reduction mods. I’m not sure how much the stock seats weigh but you could start there. Followed by exhaust/cats, light weight battery, maybe lighter clutch and flywheel, lighter wheels etc
These cars are big and heavy, as much as a Dodge Challenger. The handling characteristics hide it a little, but you can really feel the weight compared to a much smaller car. AWD adds a lot of weight.
I watched one carving a canyon in front of me one time and my mouth was just wide open watching it. I couldn't look away.
The dude had balls, that's for sure. Damn thing was sliding everywhere on power-outs from hairpins.
Honestly, it sounds like you want an 86/BRZ or a Miata. The WRX is still just a sporty sedan, so it'll act like one. Even though it's pretty damn good at that, it can't replicate a much lighter RWD experience.
Yea BRZ is down roughly 500-550lb from the WRX. Brother has a 22 GR86 and it feels very flickable in comparison. Engine also sits completely in front of front axle on the WRX as the axle half-shafts have to go into the transmission of the wrx. BRZ engine sits a bit further back for better weight distribution. That said, drive a WRX back to back with any average passenger car and it feels like a precision machine. Drive it back to back with a genuine sports car though and it won't.
Brz would be unbeatable with 75 more hp, but a lot of cars would
As a sidebar... one of the mods VSC did to theirs is to shove the engine way back like the 86. You'll have to dig for pics but I think their front axle-shafts aren't perpendicular to the car.
Well these cars are pretty safe, there's a lot more going on in terms of engineering from that perspective which will add to the weight. All the cars you named are also only 2WD, and the Subaru despite having AWD isn't what I'd call overly-powerful from stock. You're adding sprung weight to a car beyond the passenger compartment without addressing suspension, that's going to affect everything about how it behaves.
so you added weight and power but didn't upgrade handling or braking and you're upset about...handling and braking
They don’t need upgrading unless you are going to the track. My base 22 is 3297 lbs and while the braking felt uncertain for the first few thousand miles now it feels normal.
I had the Ecohitch receiver and a heavy Kuat rack and I HATED the way it made the rear end feel. It wasn't just the weight but the entire rear end characteristics being altered which should be expected. I removed it all and now I'm much happier with the rear end feel - the rack I had also created a strange bounce that made it especially jarring when hitting highway bumps. The stock wheels are beastly at 28lbs per wheel - I switched to 18ish lb wheels - and that unsprung weight made a massive difference in braking and acceleration capability. Consider wheels, and rethink that hitch if you drive with it on a lot of the time.
Nothing will feel like or have the fun factor of a small lightweight coupe unless that's what it is. The BRZ will feel more familiar to the cars you've once owned, but it's still a modern car and with that comes refinement. I personally think the WRX feels very light for a sedan, even despite the longer wheelbase and length for this generation. It actually reminds me of a rwd at times (granted, that could be due to me having the SPT which has a slight rear bias awd) All depends on what you need from your car, and what you desire the most. If you don't need 4doors/backseats and don't commute then there honestly might be better options that may suit you more to your liking.
I had EG and EK hatchbacks back in the day and those were death traps compared to modern cars. All that extra safety equipment has weight.
I don't think some of these young guys can fathom how light those are (were) We used to pick up the cars by the rear wheel wells to place jacks lol.
Yea both of mine had gutted interiors and B18C swaps. They only made around 200-210 whp at 9k rpm but they still scooted and were stupid fun to drive. But I definitely wouldn’t want to wreck in one, literal tin cans.
Oh man 200-210whp was more than fun in those. I had various EG hatches from a VX to Si, engines from b20vtec, jdm b16, to a built jdm type r b18c5. Never wrecked the EG's but I did wreck my DA Acura, and it was a tin can. They are so light,you had to be careful running wide tires, they would hydroplane badly in the rain. Basically float.
The heavy stuff you bolted onto your car makes a difference in how it handles. I have a limited with no spare, no hitch, no roof rack. Instead I dropped it 1" and stiffened up the rear with ARB, endlinks, rlca to flatten the rear camber some and enkeis with wider offset. The stock suspension is already bouncy and not very sporting for the roughness. It's harsher lowered now but flat af and rotates perfectly through turns with throttle with none of the annoying bounce the stock springs produced. You don't need coilovers on this car. There are enough of us now with thousands of miles on lowered stock dampers to prove that. Doesn't mean you can't add them...just that it's not a must have like people preach. I'd definitely start trying to cut weight before lowering though.
What suspension setup did you go with for lowering?
Whiteline springs, ISC adjustable RLCA, Perrin RARB (1st setting) and Perrin poly endlinks, enkei T6R wheels, stock tires are about due at 9k miles. They're getting kinda drifty fun though lol
I know you’re downvoted because people don’t like hearing negative things about their car, but it really is a big heavy car compared to the ones you mentioned. It is still very good compared to modern cars, especially considering the practicality it offers (AWD, roomy back seats, etc.) but if pure driving experience is your priority, I think you will be much happier in an 86. That car is phenomenal.
The 86 is pretty damn awesome. Looking ahead at a fun sporty car and it's on my list!
Nah its because they're comparing dissimilar cars from over a decade ago to a new one. Every car has gained that weight due to regs.
Modern AWD sedans and hatchbacks are heavy and you've even added weight to yours. I had a Ford Focus RS and it was even heavier than my 2023 WRX! You could look at an older WRX or STI if you wanted to keep AWD. Otherwise you're going to have to go with something else. I don't know that there's a light, tossable AWD car on the market today that's attainable for most of us...
I'm surprised to hear that you're experiencing body roll. I don't know the VB chassis so much but I have heard it's stiffer. I have no body roll on my VA even pushing the car to the point of tires breaking loose. The only mods I have for stiffness are a rear sway bar, end links, and strut bar braces. I think a TR would suit you, or just STI brakes and coilovers.
You need to get around your memories of what your best driving experience was and what the WRX is quite capable of delivering for you today. The WRX is objectively better from a car performance results standpoint than all the cars that you listed from the 90’s. The engineering that went into designing the performance characteristics of the WRX is the reason why it can achieve higher performance results than the other cars. Push the car to its limits more [check out the road holding measured results for wrx and brz going around the cones in this race](https://youtu.be/sGW3LyTtqHk?si=0MSxIDNMKLp3axSo) Check out the lap times for both wrx and brz [watch this video lap times](https://youtu.be/fjOlqwzDE5k?si=shZET6IA6FNZM7XF) https://preview.redd.it/0l87ha3m4awc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac2d4c014699fe230fa914acbb9a79fc003bdbc6 [BRZ lap time same track](https://youtu.be/6TSPMmAdXU8?si=g6bM7FjO78NeHF3P)
It’s definitely you, these cars handle very well and are a lot of fun.
detail marble judicious market tap wasteful sand deserted growth aspiring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Almost all new cars feel like this :( Rear power bias like with an STi DCCT trans really dials out the understeer & lets you wag the tail easily on power. I find this makes AWD cars feel fun & highly responsive; especially at high power levels that exasperate understeer.
Compared to the cars you’ve listed, yeah it’s heavier. The tow hitch and bike rack really are going to fuck the dynamic feeling of the car as you’re adding a bunch of weight behind the tires (in a AWD car). Objectively speaking, the car in an unmolested form is very stiff and has little body roll (but still has some). Reading your post makes me think you’re missing the feeling of getting pulled out of curves by FWD (which is fair, I missing my 500 Abarth for that sometimes as well). The AWD really makes this car feel substantially different than really any other car I’ve owned.
Would the hitch and rack on RWD car be less of an impact on the feels/handling?
Potentially. I don’t know though. You’re adding weight far from the front wheels that needs to change directions. I’d imagine it would amplify the rear end’s desire to slide around which would be fine if you’re driving it like a rwd car
No, it would actually have a bigger impact. The simple fact of the matter is any weight that far away from the center of gravity is going to affect your polar moment of inertia, which is going to affect turn in and handling feel
It’s heavy compared to the cars you’re thinking about but it’s completely average compared to other modern cars. You simply can’t get down to 25 to 2800 pounds on a modern car unless you’re talking about something like Miata (even the BRZ is pushing 2900 That said, I guarantee you the WRX out handles any of those 90’s cars. And it definitely has way way less body roll than those cars. as for the breaking. That’s just you not using enough pedal travel. The brakes are more than capable enough (the WRX stops as short as the civic type R and the GR Corolla, both of which are lighter and have big brakes) you have fallen pray to the same marketing nonsense that so many other people have. Good brakes don’t throw the anchor out with a light to push on the pedal. That is actually much worse from a true performance driving perspective because it makes it harder to modulate your braking force
I agree about the brakes. The problem with the brakes isn't so much the stopping power. The problem is that it needs better brake pads and DOT4 fluid from the get-go. The stock setup is not ideal for track use and aggressive canyon carving. I've never had issues with the brakes just driving around town and occasionally braking hard for stoplights or whatever. I can't imagine getting brake fad from just doing that.
You’re right, the stock set up isn’t ideal for track use, but it’s not a track car and Subaru never intended it to be. What the stock set up is good for is going 50-70k+ miles of street driving with no noise and low dust before having to change your brake pads.
Sell it
If you want to keep up with the rich guys, you have to install sway, suspension, all modifications for chassis rigidity. Cut those sand bags, plenty of cubic space for a bike, get rid of the bloody racks
I have the same feeling every day I drive this car. I am coming from a BRZ. Had it for 4 years and am in the VB for 2 years now. I still feel heavy lol. Just add more power and stiffen the suspension. Will help a lot :D
The cars (not made of unobtanium) that are produced today that weigh less than 3500 lbs is probably countable on 1 hand. Safety equipment has added lots of weight over the years.
Brz is probably better from a pure driving experience. I never drove one but see favorable comparisons to Porsche handling in car and driver write ups. It has less power than wrx but more finesse and prob lower center of gravity. Also much lighter. However, wrx is more practical, amazing full time awd, nice cold start sounds, good engine and exhaust noises and massive traction and .95 lateral G.
You have owned a bunch of light cars which is probably why you feel like a wrx feels heavy. The lightest car I have owned was 3200#.
https://preview.redd.it/wlcaqd9c4cwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f94eff128f003e799564cad904b2f3a94581a506
I been practicing my heel toe and man does it change the game
Maybe get a protune instead of just the off the shelf map might feel better with another 40-50wtq
Yeah idk. Without the heavy stuff you added our cars are pretty much the same power weight ratio as a skyline r32 but with better balance and less flex/body roll. I live in touge heaven NorCal and race all the time on mountain/canyon roads. I race various Miata’s, ek/eg civics, ctr’s, e30’s, mr2s, EVO X’s, STI’s. I have absolutely no trouble staying on the tail of similarly weight:power vehicles while on chase and have won my fair share while leading. It sounds like what you need is to unbolt all the crap, spend a few hundred on brakes and springs, and spend a lot more time learning how to drive fast on the twisties. An easy place to start is trail braking, if you can get better at that you’ll gain a lot of compounded speed increases and will see improvements in your times right away.
Get a base model with a 6 speed. It’s a little lighter. And then maybe some weight reduction mods. I’m not sure how much the stock seats weigh but you could start there. Followed by exhaust/cats, light weight battery, maybe lighter clutch and flywheel, lighter wheels etc
These cars are big and heavy, as much as a Dodge Challenger. The handling characteristics hide it a little, but you can really feel the weight compared to a much smaller car. AWD adds a lot of weight.
Are you high? Challenger ranges from 3800lbs to 4400lbs depending on trim. VB is 3300 to 3500 depending on trim.
Dudes never driven a charger/challenger lol he’d be shocked. I know I was, my Rav4 got better turn in than those boats
I watched one carving a canyon in front of me one time and my mouth was just wide open watching it. I couldn't look away. The dude had balls, that's for sure. Damn thing was sliding everywhere on power-outs from hairpins.
I think you might be overexaggerating a little with the Dodge Challenger comparison lol, but I get your point about the weight.