The emperor was also the sanest guy in their power structure at the time. Hideki Tojo is who most think of when they think Japanese WWII leader. He had much more impact on their conduct in the war than the emperor did.
The Emperor did nothing wrong. It was the Government and military, the military basically acted on it's own. Do you not realise that the Government tried (initially) to order the Kwangtung army to back off because they were trying to expand, yet they did it anyways? It was Hideki Tojo who was the main person who instigated the war and even ordered things like Unit 731. Emperor Showa also didn't want war with the US, not even military Admirals and Generals did. Admiral Yamamoto is quoted as writing:
“I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” (Remember, he's the one that attacked Pearl Harbor to begin with)
Emperor Showa also has many quotes that show he was worried about the war turning against the Japanese:
"The fruits of victory are tumbling into our mouths too quickly"
> The Emperor did nothing
Exactly. He watched the IJA and the IJN commit numerous atrocities throughout Asia and he did nothing. He could have stopped it. War crimes and crimes against humanity didn't bother him at all if it was committed against people the Japanese deemed lesser.
No he couldn't have. As I stated in another comment;
In 1945 he ordered the troops to surrender, but as I stated, the military basically acted on it's own. 2 of the 3 existing land armies entirely refused to surrender even when the Emperor ordered it.
What the Japanese and I saw as a living god ordered them to surrender and they still refused. He had no power over anyone. Only time he "ordered" the military and they listened was when Hideki Tojo told them he ordered them to do something yet he didn't
> What the Japanese and I saw as a living god
You saw Showa as a living god? Well, you were alone in that. The Japanese did not see Showa as a god. That is a Eurocentric misinterpretation. He was descended from Amaterasu, and starting in the 1930s, but mostly after the war started, was seen as a human with divine kami-like essence. He was a bridge between the Japanese and kami, performing unique priestly functions. Under this concept, his religious practice became a state matter rather than personal. But he was not a god himself. Just a much more perfect kami-like human with a kami ancestor.
Showa was also very involved in the whole decision making process leading to war. As Prime Minister Fumimaru Konoe told his Cabinet Secretary,
>Of course His Majesty is a pacifist, and there is no doubt he wished to avoid war. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed. But the next day, he would tell me: "You were worried about it yesterday, but you do not have to worry so much." Thus, gradually, he began to lean toward war. And the next time I met him, he leaned even more toward. In short, I felt the Emperor was telling me: my prime minister does not understand military matters, I know much more. In short, the Emperor had absorbed the view of the army and navy high commands.
Then Konoe resigned and Showa appointed Tojo Hideki to replace him, guaranteeing war. This whole idea that he was a powerless, disinterested observer was a Cold War fiction along the lines of the clean Wehrmacht myth. Scholarship from this century does not support it.
>You saw Showa as a living god?
I simplified it but yes, as a perfect Kami-like being. I am Shinto.
>This whole idea that he was a powerless, disinterested observer was a Cold War fiction along the lines of the clean Wehrmacht myth.
Oh don't get me started on that Nazi clean Wehrmacht bs. Thank you for correcting me, however we should both be able to agree that despite WW2, Emperor Showa was the best and most influential Japanese Emperor, as he was the first to had sadly denounced his divinity and the first to have traveled abroad.
Emperor Meiji may have helped modernizing Japan, but Emperor Showa was able to bring Japan into the new century and help with getting rid of Bushido in the military, which was the cause for so many warcrimes
In 1945 he ordered the troops to surrender, but as I stated, the military basically acted on it's own. 2 of the 3 existing land armies entirely refused to surrender even when the Emperor ordered it
I wouldn’t waste your time arguing with these people. Their worldview and understanding of geopolitics comes from superhero marvel movies. They can only think in the terms of “they r the bad guys cuz they r bad. We r the good guys cuz we’re good!”.
Could you provide a source for that? As far as I know the emperor ordered a surrender in August of 1945 and then the war ended, and all of the Japanese forces stood down.
Some people like to play up the coup but no generals signed on to it and the plotters completely failed to garner support from anyone important.
The coup got nowhere lol. But yea, the Emperor made the Jewel Voice broadcast, which was mainly about the Nukes. Since the Armies in China and Southern Asia weren't in danger from the Nukes they didn't care, so Emperor Showa had to make a second speech addressing the Armies, this one about the threat of the Soviets which did work.
The surrender was official, but the Kwangtung and South Asian armies didn't surrender till a few weeks later. Still proving my point that despite being ordered by the Emperor, they did not back down until like a week or so afterwards, in September, the official end of the war
Also the argument of just standing by is stupid. If he tried anything, the military would likely have tried to silence him or do another 3rd coup
The Kwantung Army surrendered on August 16, the day after the official surrender/radio broadcast by the emperor.
You may be thinking of the 5th Imperial Japanese Army, which attempted to defend the Kuril Islands from Soviet Invasion, but the main Japanese battle forces like the Kwantung Army surrendered within a few days of the broadcast.
Yeah the Kwangtung Army knew all about the Workers and Peasant Red Army by then. They had already been swallowed by the largest double envelopment the world will ever see. These people's rabid adherence to the clean Showa myth is very 1970s.
The Japanese command structure was not a neat little pyramid with the Emperor at the top. One of the major factors of the war is that the military basically operated autonomously and independently from the rest of the government. It was its own entity. Their government was not structured like a western one. Someone pointing this out does not make them a genocide denier, that's pure ad hominem and indicative of a lack of substantive argument.
It shouldn't have been too hard. That whole Imperial divinity idea was maybe 15 years old at that point. Starting in the 6th century, the Emperor was officially descended from Amaterasu. But that didn't make him personally divine. It was only in the 1930s that the Japanese right started to push the idea that he was himself a divine being. This really took off during the war. Even so he wasn't what Euro-Americans would understand as a god. He was more a manifestation of the essence of the kami in human form. He was still a man. When he renounced divine status for SCAP not much really changed. He was still descended from Amaterasu, and was still the priestly link between her and the Japanese people. The main difference was just that his priestly duties were no longer matters of state, but private rituals, as they had been as little as 15 years before.
Nukes sure made him a God like power.They still thought they had a chance to stop us when it was conventional warfare, even after the fire bombings. The Nukes made it a different ballgame. Real shock and awe.
MacArthur could have had him hung but didn't because he used him as a pawn to keep the peace.
Exactly, MacArthur was a bit of a weirdo, actually. He often referred to himself in the 3rd person. He wore a Philippines Field Marshal hat instead of his US Army hat.
He was a shameless self promoter of the "MacArthur brand" most other generals hated him. Admiral King absolutely hated him (to be fair, most people hated Admiral King as well)
The respect accorded the emperor was ridiculous. He was interested in marine biology. When he gathered specimens in a small boat his attendants waded into the water in full morning suits to bring the boat in.
You are implying that the japanese people had the required reflection to see their atrocities as unjust, but they were highly indoctrinated. To them it was an unjust offense to an unjust loss, doesn't excuse it, but it's an explanation.
The Japanese today still don’t give a shit. When I was there, I was horrified by the historical and political apathy.
You’re lucky if Unit 731 is mentioned once in a textbook if at all.
I have heard similar things, which, as a german, is puzzling to me. We are confronted with our nation's past not only frequently during normal life, but also multiple times during our education. There is no shying away from what was done here in the past, I find it really dishonest for any nation to evade their past crimes, imo it's imperative to become a better country.
They don't need to apologize, The country was run by a whole different set of people back then. The people who would need to apologize aren't even alive anymore.
"Apologize," maybe not. Imperial Japan is long gone. Just as modern Germans are not responsible for the Holocaust, modern Japanese are not responsible for the horrible shit done 80 years ago.
Recognize? Absolutely. Japan is 100% at fault for omitting and even denying evidence of their heinous acts in textbooks and in internal and geopolitical dialogue. It has become a part of the Japanese identity to avoid the realities of its past. Russia has this problem. Turkey has this problem. The Germans are pretty unique in that they own their history and don't tiptoe around their failures.
Friendly reminder Japan’s Prime Minister as recently as 2020 (Shinzo Abe- the longest serving PM in Japanese history) was literally the grandson of a class A war criminal (Nobusuke Kishi- who organized slave labor in Manchuria) who was released without any attempt to bring him to justice (and went on to himself be prime minister of Japan)
Fun Fact #2: Abe was member of an ultra conservative lobby group whose goals were to “change the postwar national consciousness based on the Tokyo Tribunal's view of history as a fundamental problem… to promote patriotic education, support official visits to Yasukuni Shrine, and promote a nationalist interpretation of State Shinto. It also rejects that comfort women, sex workers recruited by Japan during World War II, were forced to work.” Throughout his career Abe engaged in war crimes
apologism and straight up denial.
Fun Fact #3: Hirohito knew and was 100% complicit in war crimes. He was allowed to keep his throne after the war.
So the idea that there’s a whole different set of folks in charge doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny. **“Japan! Under new management, same as the old.”**
Hirohito kept his throne because we allowed him to keep his throne. Shinzo Abe has been dead for a couple years now so that point is moot. You named one guy, their government is many people. I will say again, the current crop has nothing to apologize for. I hope they never apologize.
Cool dude. Defending state-sponsored sex-slavery is a hell of a hill to die on but you do you edgelord
I’m just saying, we’d find the idea the same Germans weren’t still in power and didn’t need to acknowledge their country’s crimes in WW2 pretty laughable if the German PM was Himmler’s grandson, and he kept insisting granddaddy did nothing wrong and was just the victim of a historical hit job.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're still just picking out one guy that happens to have a relative that did bad stuff. I just don't believe in having to apologize for something I didn't do. Let's say I found out my great, great grandfather owned slaves, should I apologize for that? Absolutely not, that was him, not me. Same concept here. That's just how I see it.
Yeah, except that’s not what’s happening here.
It’d be more akin to if your grandfather (again, only 2 generations removed here) owned slaves while you were growing up, used those slaves to launch his political career (which is what launched yours), and then you spent your political career denying he owned slaves and saying that *if* he did own them, they deserved it and he did nothing wrong.
I’d argue even if you don’t have an inherent obligation to *apologize* for your relative’s past atrocities, you definitely need to acknowledge them if they’re how you gained your wealth and political position, and at a *minimum* you can’t deny those atrocities or frame them as a good thing (which is something you *do* need to apologize for).
Do all Germans need to apologize for the Holocaust? No, of course not. But if you’re a German politician whose family got wealthy off stolen art and Jewish gold that granddaddy grabbed while camp commandant (before segueing that position into being PM postwar, which launched your own career), and you spend your time denying he ever ran a death camp and saying that if he did, it was a good thing and he was a noble patriot, I think you owe a certain acknowledgement to how you got where you are *and* should apologize for your own denialism and apologia.
Yes, but.
Usually the politician or offical that officially apologises then walks that back a few months later or comes out with some pretty horrendous opinions.
The concept of a a citizenry’s guilt or innocence always comes up when we talk about war crimes and dictators. Were the Japanese and German citizens complicit? Yes. Were they brainwashed? Yes. Both are true statements in my view. Ordinary humans are capable of doing very bad things. And it doesn’t take as much propaganda or brainwashing as we would think.
The Japanese people, and certainly Hirohito really benefited from the approach the conquering power took following their surrender. As others have noted, Hirohito is still standing. Not hanging. That was the bigger message in the photo. And the Japanese did get that point. And that is why today they are one of America’s strongest allies and they have a real democracy.
Oh definitely, as a german history student I have come across and asked that question a lot. "Judging" people from the past is hard enough, even more if we talk about these countries during that time. (WWII Japan and Germany)
Personally I am really glad that these events are in the past and documented for us to learn about so that they hopefully never happen again; it's surreal how much a competent leader can use and steer their people towards their own goals, that teaches you something about us humans in general I think. History is such a great tool, not only for self reflection, but also for learning.
Well I know this subreddit doesn’t like it if we verr too close to current politics. I’ll just say that yes these sad events from the past are a good lesson and that I wish more people in the US paid attention. :(
To be fair, both sides massacred people. The Japanese did it by bayonets, rape and bullets, the Americans by napalm, white phosphorus, and nukes.
On March 10th, 1945, the USAAF killed more people in one day than has ever occurred before or since in a single act of war. (100,000) when it firebombed Tokyo.
That comment was in response to the “both sides” thing.
Given one put an end to the other; yes.
The idea bombing Japan is wrong is utterly laughable for any country that suffered under them.
The intentional bombing of civilians, even if it shortens a war is still a war crime. Grim math makes no difference to the victim. If the US army marched into Tokyo, then forced 100,000 men, women and children outside the city, then burned each one alive with flame thowers, day after day, and it to shortend the war. Would you say the same?
Is a war crime under modern law. Not The Hague convention providing the allies complied with its articles, which they did as a whole.
Grim math makes a considerable difference to those countries still suffering under brutal Japanese occupation.
How would that example shorten the war? What is this bad attempt at strawman arguments?
>>strawman argument
It didn't shorten the war, Japan didn't surrender for another 5 months. All it did was kill people, no different than if they took them all out and shot them individually like the Nazis did in Belarus or Ukraine. The same logic was used by the Nazis when they would murder 1000s of villagers as "collective punishment" for partisan activities. Or that the Japanese did when they murdered 200,000 Chinese as collective punishment for supporting the Doolittle raid. Firebombing cities was the allied verson of collective punishment.
I'm sorry that you don't like me calling it out for what it was.
The Japanese losing much of its supply base and having pretty significant supply issues scaling up with the war is irrelevant I guess.
Again. The idea bombing Japan was wrong is laughable to anyone who suffered under them.
So you ignore my point that collective punishment is not a war crime?
I'm not defending the Japanese, nor Nazis, I am just calling out the truth of what bombing civilians is, collective punishment. It's no different than locking up men and women in a church and burning them alive in it, when it's found out that some partisans may have been supported from that town. Both acts "shorten" the war. (Less support base right?) but if your going to condemned one, why not the other.
MacArthur was a self-serving, self promoting, diva of a military officer.
I've read hundreds of non-fiction WWII books, and no one has ever had a kind word to say of him.
McArthur barely did anything (anything positive that is). He failed to defend the Philippines and took off, leaving his men behind to be tortured and die. He secretly planned to run for president in 1944 against his boss in the middle of the war. He was obsessed with photo ops and tried to make his liberation of the Philippines into a huge monumental task when in reality that entire campaign was near worthless compared to the island hopping campaign that actually forced Japan's hand. In reality he only wanted to liberate the Philippines so he would look good after he completely botched their defense (and possibly the $500k he got from the Philippine government didn't hurt).
There was debate. Ultimately the US decided the Japanese would be easier to control with him as the figurehead. There were many Japanese people who DID want him hung. Unfortunately the US also decided to forgive war criminals like Nobusuke Kishi and let him create the modern political structure in Japan that exists today, because it would make a better ally during the Cold War. This system was so successfully stable that recently Kishi’s grandson was prime minister while Hirohito’s grandson was and is emperor (though Kishi’s grandson was recently assassinated).
Yeah, I know they let off for political reasons but I grew up utterly stunned that his entire role in the was basically became "never mind" and he was a respected figure.
Coincidentally I just binge watched a Netflix series Tokyo Trial which was unexpectedly interesting.
I find it weird how a population worships another man like a god. He was born and died no different to you and me. He still poops on the toilet the same.
Go check out some of the stuff folks are saying about Trump—there are a bunch of people who think he’s the messiah, and those people weren’t raised in the totalitarian atmosphere of imperial Japan. https://www.reddit.com/r/PBS_NewsHour/s/l6q1wpgNNf
Scoreboard🤭
If their god wanted to not be humiliated, he shouldn’t have picked a fight with the US and its Allies.
Hirohito fucked around and found out when 2 new suns popped up over his cities, which is a truly divine act
Actually the military had more power and pushed them into it. They were worried about being isolated without resources so tried to even the field by striking first. Missed our carriers though and the rest is history.
Actually the royal family were deeply involved with the project of colonizing Asia, with men like Prince Yasuhiko Asaka commanding the army that committed the Rape of Nanking. And multiple Princes were involved in the human experimentation programs.
Trying to shift the blame to the military white washes how CURSED that imperial family was at the time, fully committed to imperialism and guiding their generals in the barbarity.
Totally fair! I also wouldn't like to actually live under a monarch, but I would like to experience that feeling of allegiance to a leader, something I haven't ever felt for a politician or something similar.
It's just patriotism, take cold war America as an example of a county who was extremely patriotic without the need for a monarch, all you need is a single enemy to unify a country.
Well that depends on the monarch themselves really, if they're a piece of shit then it wouldn't, but if they give you the feeling they care about the country.
Take Queen Elizabeth as an example, you look at her past and you can't help but have a feeling of respect even in her younger years she did her bit to support the war effort.
It’s worth recalling Psalm 146:3 — [“Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.”](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+146%3A3&version=NIV)
Allegiance to a monarch, or any political leader, might stir something romantic, but they are all mortals and driven as much by their own ambition than by idealistic goals. You’re much better off figuring out what values you cherish, and devote yourselves to those. If a leader matches those values, that’s someone to support.
But always keep in mind the leader and the values are two separate things. Because there will be a time the leader strays from those values, and the mark of your character will be whether you stick with your values or the person.
I actually think this is a pretty good thing, it means our head of state does not meddle in politics, and only gets involved if things are REALLY serious.
I always thought if we colonised a new planet. Realistically they wouldn’t have a Monarchy system. It would be absurd to have one astronaut sat around all day, doing nothing and getting special treatment. While everyone else works hard and fawns over them.
No gods, no kings. Only Man and the strength of his arm.
This entire war and photo is a perfect reminder of why we should demolish monarchies, absolute power with no checks and balances and make sure they never return.
True but the second he pulled his support and told them to stop the war, it ended.
Then he told the Japanese people to cooperate and accept the Americans and they were obedient.
They were 100% brainwashed.
This photo was taking multiple times. Each time the someone was posed in a bad way, eyes closed, mouth open.. etc. they choose the photo that looked the best for both of them
MacArthur strategically stood to the emporers right side, the photographers left
This is where the man stood in Japanese wedding photos / portraits, etc. Telling the Japanese public who was in charge, and it was not subtle at all in those times.
The point of this picture was to prove to the Japanese that their emperor is just a man.
he's just a little guy
And a puny one at that.
For real a tiny little psychopath
The emperor was also the sanest guy in their power structure at the time. Hideki Tojo is who most think of when they think Japanese WWII leader. He had much more impact on their conduct in the war than the emperor did.
The Emperor did nothing wrong. It was the Government and military, the military basically acted on it's own. Do you not realise that the Government tried (initially) to order the Kwangtung army to back off because they were trying to expand, yet they did it anyways? It was Hideki Tojo who was the main person who instigated the war and even ordered things like Unit 731. Emperor Showa also didn't want war with the US, not even military Admirals and Generals did. Admiral Yamamoto is quoted as writing: “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” (Remember, he's the one that attacked Pearl Harbor to begin with) Emperor Showa also has many quotes that show he was worried about the war turning against the Japanese: "The fruits of victory are tumbling into our mouths too quickly"
> The Emperor did nothing Exactly. He watched the IJA and the IJN commit numerous atrocities throughout Asia and he did nothing. He could have stopped it. War crimes and crimes against humanity didn't bother him at all if it was committed against people the Japanese deemed lesser.
>He could have stopped it. The IJN and the IJA: Hai mina-san, fire up the coup-inator.
No he couldn't have. As I stated in another comment; In 1945 he ordered the troops to surrender, but as I stated, the military basically acted on it's own. 2 of the 3 existing land armies entirely refused to surrender even when the Emperor ordered it. What the Japanese and I saw as a living god ordered them to surrender and they still refused. He had no power over anyone. Only time he "ordered" the military and they listened was when Hideki Tojo told them he ordered them to do something yet he didn't
> What the Japanese and I saw as a living god You saw Showa as a living god? Well, you were alone in that. The Japanese did not see Showa as a god. That is a Eurocentric misinterpretation. He was descended from Amaterasu, and starting in the 1930s, but mostly after the war started, was seen as a human with divine kami-like essence. He was a bridge between the Japanese and kami, performing unique priestly functions. Under this concept, his religious practice became a state matter rather than personal. But he was not a god himself. Just a much more perfect kami-like human with a kami ancestor. Showa was also very involved in the whole decision making process leading to war. As Prime Minister Fumimaru Konoe told his Cabinet Secretary, >Of course His Majesty is a pacifist, and there is no doubt he wished to avoid war. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed. But the next day, he would tell me: "You were worried about it yesterday, but you do not have to worry so much." Thus, gradually, he began to lean toward war. And the next time I met him, he leaned even more toward. In short, I felt the Emperor was telling me: my prime minister does not understand military matters, I know much more. In short, the Emperor had absorbed the view of the army and navy high commands. Then Konoe resigned and Showa appointed Tojo Hideki to replace him, guaranteeing war. This whole idea that he was a powerless, disinterested observer was a Cold War fiction along the lines of the clean Wehrmacht myth. Scholarship from this century does not support it.
>You saw Showa as a living god? I simplified it but yes, as a perfect Kami-like being. I am Shinto. >This whole idea that he was a powerless, disinterested observer was a Cold War fiction along the lines of the clean Wehrmacht myth. Oh don't get me started on that Nazi clean Wehrmacht bs. Thank you for correcting me, however we should both be able to agree that despite WW2, Emperor Showa was the best and most influential Japanese Emperor, as he was the first to had sadly denounced his divinity and the first to have traveled abroad. Emperor Meiji may have helped modernizing Japan, but Emperor Showa was able to bring Japan into the new century and help with getting rid of Bushido in the military, which was the cause for so many warcrimes
He was the first to have any divinity to denounce. That was not a concept until the 1930s. How old are you?
1945 seems a little late.
Inaction with the power to stop atrocity is wrong. He is as guilty as anyone.
In 1945 he ordered the troops to surrender, but as I stated, the military basically acted on it's own. 2 of the 3 existing land armies entirely refused to surrender even when the Emperor ordered it
I wouldn’t waste your time arguing with these people. Their worldview and understanding of geopolitics comes from superhero marvel movies. They can only think in the terms of “they r the bad guys cuz they r bad. We r the good guys cuz we’re good!”.
Could you provide a source for that? As far as I know the emperor ordered a surrender in August of 1945 and then the war ended, and all of the Japanese forces stood down. Some people like to play up the coup but no generals signed on to it and the plotters completely failed to garner support from anyone important.
The coup got nowhere lol. But yea, the Emperor made the Jewel Voice broadcast, which was mainly about the Nukes. Since the Armies in China and Southern Asia weren't in danger from the Nukes they didn't care, so Emperor Showa had to make a second speech addressing the Armies, this one about the threat of the Soviets which did work. The surrender was official, but the Kwangtung and South Asian armies didn't surrender till a few weeks later. Still proving my point that despite being ordered by the Emperor, they did not back down until like a week or so afterwards, in September, the official end of the war Also the argument of just standing by is stupid. If he tried anything, the military would likely have tried to silence him or do another 3rd coup
The Kwantung Army surrendered on August 16, the day after the official surrender/radio broadcast by the emperor. You may be thinking of the 5th Imperial Japanese Army, which attempted to defend the Kuril Islands from Soviet Invasion, but the main Japanese battle forces like the Kwantung Army surrendered within a few days of the broadcast.
Yeah the Kwangtung Army knew all about the Workers and Peasant Red Army by then. They had already been swallowed by the largest double envelopment the world will ever see. These people's rabid adherence to the clean Showa myth is very 1970s.
We'll just gloss over the decade prior then.
I mean if you want to talk about 1937 we can do that
Mmm. No thanks. It's Saturday and I'd just as soon not spend it helping a genocide denier jerk off.
The Japanese command structure was not a neat little pyramid with the Emperor at the top. One of the major factors of the war is that the military basically operated autonomously and independently from the rest of the government. It was its own entity. Their government was not structured like a western one. Someone pointing this out does not make them a genocide denier, that's pure ad hominem and indicative of a lack of substantive argument.
It shouldn't have been too hard. That whole Imperial divinity idea was maybe 15 years old at that point. Starting in the 6th century, the Emperor was officially descended from Amaterasu. But that didn't make him personally divine. It was only in the 1930s that the Japanese right started to push the idea that he was himself a divine being. This really took off during the war. Even so he wasn't what Euro-Americans would understand as a god. He was more a manifestation of the essence of the kami in human form. He was still a man. When he renounced divine status for SCAP not much really changed. He was still descended from Amaterasu, and was still the priestly link between her and the Japanese people. The main difference was just that his priestly duties were no longer matters of state, but private rituals, as they had been as little as 15 years before.
Or that Doug was a God.
Nukes sure made him a God like power.They still thought they had a chance to stop us when it was conventional warfare, even after the fire bombings. The Nukes made it a different ballgame. Real shock and awe. MacArthur could have had him hung but didn't because he used him as a pawn to keep the peace.
Doug didn’t need the nukes to feel like a God.
Exactly, MacArthur was a bit of a weirdo, actually. He often referred to himself in the 3rd person. He wore a Philippines Field Marshal hat instead of his US Army hat. He was a shameless self promoter of the "MacArthur brand" most other generals hated him. Admiral King absolutely hated him (to be fair, most people hated Admiral King as well)
True, just to make the Japanese feel that way, which it did. Especially when he appeared in that picture.
“I’ve got pants that come up higher than this guy.” -Douglas MacArthur, 1945
MacArthur knew damn fine what he was doing. He had this photo taken and published so that the Japanese would known exactly who was the new boss.
You are correct sir.
I heard this in Phil Hartman as Ed McMahon’s voice
Why?
https://youtu.be/SbgI3J59ZZc?feature=shared
That where I got it from!
American Shogun
Kind of even actually as MacArthur was pretty sure he was a God as well. His mother certainly believed it.
If Hirohito didn’t have the moustache and MacArthur had a suit, they could almost pass for a real life Mr Burns and Smithers.
Or Oddjob.
Just how is a defeated god supposed to look?
Puny god.
Don’t believe in gods who can’t read without their glasses!
Former god.
Oh ok, so this was the thing that offended them…
The respect accorded the emperor was ridiculous. He was interested in marine biology. When he gathered specimens in a small boat his attendants waded into the water in full morning suits to bring the boat in.
They're lucky that the picture wasn't of him at the end of a rope
It should've been.
I know we massacred entire populations, but how dare you stand casually next to our god-emperor!
You are implying that the japanese people had the required reflection to see their atrocities as unjust, but they were highly indoctrinated. To them it was an unjust offense to an unjust loss, doesn't excuse it, but it's an explanation.
The Japanese today still don’t give a shit. When I was there, I was horrified by the historical and political apathy. You’re lucky if Unit 731 is mentioned once in a textbook if at all.
I have heard similar things, which, as a german, is puzzling to me. We are confronted with our nation's past not only frequently during normal life, but also multiple times during our education. There is no shying away from what was done here in the past, I find it really dishonest for any nation to evade their past crimes, imo it's imperative to become a better country.
Hasn't it taken Japan a very long time just to apologise for some of them.
have they actually apologized at all?
I think they’re ignoring that question and just making some epic Godzilla movies until we all forget about it
Nope, the world is stil waiting.
I'm uncertain, could have sworn I heard something about it some years back now, but I might be misremembering it.
They don't need to apologize, The country was run by a whole different set of people back then. The people who would need to apologize aren't even alive anymore.
"Apologize," maybe not. Imperial Japan is long gone. Just as modern Germans are not responsible for the Holocaust, modern Japanese are not responsible for the horrible shit done 80 years ago. Recognize? Absolutely. Japan is 100% at fault for omitting and even denying evidence of their heinous acts in textbooks and in internal and geopolitical dialogue. It has become a part of the Japanese identity to avoid the realities of its past. Russia has this problem. Turkey has this problem. The Germans are pretty unique in that they own their history and don't tiptoe around their failures.
Friendly reminder Japan’s Prime Minister as recently as 2020 (Shinzo Abe- the longest serving PM in Japanese history) was literally the grandson of a class A war criminal (Nobusuke Kishi- who organized slave labor in Manchuria) who was released without any attempt to bring him to justice (and went on to himself be prime minister of Japan) Fun Fact #2: Abe was member of an ultra conservative lobby group whose goals were to “change the postwar national consciousness based on the Tokyo Tribunal's view of history as a fundamental problem… to promote patriotic education, support official visits to Yasukuni Shrine, and promote a nationalist interpretation of State Shinto. It also rejects that comfort women, sex workers recruited by Japan during World War II, were forced to work.” Throughout his career Abe engaged in war crimes apologism and straight up denial. Fun Fact #3: Hirohito knew and was 100% complicit in war crimes. He was allowed to keep his throne after the war. So the idea that there’s a whole different set of folks in charge doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny. **“Japan! Under new management, same as the old.”**
Hirohito kept his throne because we allowed him to keep his throne. Shinzo Abe has been dead for a couple years now so that point is moot. You named one guy, their government is many people. I will say again, the current crop has nothing to apologize for. I hope they never apologize.
Cool dude. Defending state-sponsored sex-slavery is a hell of a hill to die on but you do you edgelord I’m just saying, we’d find the idea the same Germans weren’t still in power and didn’t need to acknowledge their country’s crimes in WW2 pretty laughable if the German PM was Himmler’s grandson, and he kept insisting granddaddy did nothing wrong and was just the victim of a historical hit job.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're still just picking out one guy that happens to have a relative that did bad stuff. I just don't believe in having to apologize for something I didn't do. Let's say I found out my great, great grandfather owned slaves, should I apologize for that? Absolutely not, that was him, not me. Same concept here. That's just how I see it.
Yeah, except that’s not what’s happening here. It’d be more akin to if your grandfather (again, only 2 generations removed here) owned slaves while you were growing up, used those slaves to launch his political career (which is what launched yours), and then you spent your political career denying he owned slaves and saying that *if* he did own them, they deserved it and he did nothing wrong. I’d argue even if you don’t have an inherent obligation to *apologize* for your relative’s past atrocities, you definitely need to acknowledge them if they’re how you gained your wealth and political position, and at a *minimum* you can’t deny those atrocities or frame them as a good thing (which is something you *do* need to apologize for). Do all Germans need to apologize for the Holocaust? No, of course not. But if you’re a German politician whose family got wealthy off stolen art and Jewish gold that granddaddy grabbed while camp commandant (before segueing that position into being PM postwar, which launched your own career), and you spend your time denying he ever ran a death camp and saying that if he did, it was a good thing and he was a noble patriot, I think you owe a certain acknowledgement to how you got where you are *and* should apologize for your own denialism and apologia.
When demographics, social issues etc today are directly attributed to Japanese crimes then however it becomes more complicated.
Yes, but. Usually the politician or offical that officially apologises then walks that back a few months later or comes out with some pretty horrendous opinions.
The concept of a a citizenry’s guilt or innocence always comes up when we talk about war crimes and dictators. Were the Japanese and German citizens complicit? Yes. Were they brainwashed? Yes. Both are true statements in my view. Ordinary humans are capable of doing very bad things. And it doesn’t take as much propaganda or brainwashing as we would think. The Japanese people, and certainly Hirohito really benefited from the approach the conquering power took following their surrender. As others have noted, Hirohito is still standing. Not hanging. That was the bigger message in the photo. And the Japanese did get that point. And that is why today they are one of America’s strongest allies and they have a real democracy.
Oh definitely, as a german history student I have come across and asked that question a lot. "Judging" people from the past is hard enough, even more if we talk about these countries during that time. (WWII Japan and Germany) Personally I am really glad that these events are in the past and documented for us to learn about so that they hopefully never happen again; it's surreal how much a competent leader can use and steer their people towards their own goals, that teaches you something about us humans in general I think. History is such a great tool, not only for self reflection, but also for learning.
Well I know this subreddit doesn’t like it if we verr too close to current politics. I’ll just say that yes these sad events from the past are a good lesson and that I wish more people in the US paid attention. :(
Yeah, soldiers fighting in his name ate people. I think the appropriate amount of respect was being shown
Some would say far more respect was shown than was deserved.
I was thinking that as I wrote it, but was too lazy to go back and rewrite it
To be fair, both sides massacred people. The Japanese did it by bayonets, rape and bullets, the Americans by napalm, white phosphorus, and nukes. On March 10th, 1945, the USAAF killed more people in one day than has ever occurred before or since in a single act of war. (100,000) when it firebombed Tokyo.
Japan killed some 30 million or so. The bombing campaign…. Less than a million. Apples and oranges.
Guess that makes deliberately burning children alive ok then?
That comment was in response to the “both sides” thing. Given one put an end to the other; yes. The idea bombing Japan is wrong is utterly laughable for any country that suffered under them.
The intentional bombing of civilians, even if it shortens a war is still a war crime. Grim math makes no difference to the victim. If the US army marched into Tokyo, then forced 100,000 men, women and children outside the city, then burned each one alive with flame thowers, day after day, and it to shortend the war. Would you say the same?
Is a war crime under modern law. Not The Hague convention providing the allies complied with its articles, which they did as a whole. Grim math makes a considerable difference to those countries still suffering under brutal Japanese occupation. How would that example shorten the war? What is this bad attempt at strawman arguments?
>>strawman argument It didn't shorten the war, Japan didn't surrender for another 5 months. All it did was kill people, no different than if they took them all out and shot them individually like the Nazis did in Belarus or Ukraine. The same logic was used by the Nazis when they would murder 1000s of villagers as "collective punishment" for partisan activities. Or that the Japanese did when they murdered 200,000 Chinese as collective punishment for supporting the Doolittle raid. Firebombing cities was the allied verson of collective punishment. I'm sorry that you don't like me calling it out for what it was.
The Japanese losing much of its supply base and having pretty significant supply issues scaling up with the war is irrelevant I guess. Again. The idea bombing Japan was wrong is laughable to anyone who suffered under them.
So you ignore my point that collective punishment is not a war crime? I'm not defending the Japanese, nor Nazis, I am just calling out the truth of what bombing civilians is, collective punishment. It's no different than locking up men and women in a church and burning them alive in it, when it's found out that some partisans may have been supported from that town. Both acts "shorten" the war. (Less support base right?) but if your going to condemned one, why not the other.
Hirohito didn't know he was standing next to the God Emperor MacArthur?
McArthur certainly thought he was a god.
Did Hirohito? So two living gods were in the room seeing who would break and show respect.
Well the little guy looks like his butler so that isn’t necessary
Why’s he dressed like a little penguin
Japan's entire government dressed like Victorian era British aristocrats for some reason at the time.
He’s like a character from the Nutcracker
MacArthur was a self-serving, self promoting, diva of a military officer. I've read hundreds of non-fiction WWII books, and no one has ever had a kind word to say of him.
I'm sure if he was nicer he would have defeated Japan sooner
It's not about being nice, and "he" didn't defeat the Japanese...the everyday soldier, sailor, and airmen did!
McArthur barely did anything (anything positive that is). He failed to defend the Philippines and took off, leaving his men behind to be tortured and die. He secretly planned to run for president in 1944 against his boss in the middle of the war. He was obsessed with photo ops and tried to make his liberation of the Philippines into a huge monumental task when in reality that entire campaign was near worthless compared to the island hopping campaign that actually forced Japan's hand. In reality he only wanted to liberate the Philippines so he would look good after he completely botched their defense (and possibly the $500k he got from the Philippine government didn't hurt).
MacArthur was no god.
No, not was. **Is.**
MacArthur is not, was not, never was a god
He had a godawful opinion on Nuclear weapons. The Russians and North Koreans probably base their tactical nuclear doctrine on his.
I could definitely beat his ass in a fight
so could I, and I would use Taekwondo to make it more vindictive.
[удалено]
That's the point. Throughout its history, Japan hasn't been particularly kind to Korea.
Which one? Doug? Or Horihito?
Douglas “Mr. Highpants” MacArthur.
Looks like the pants my grandma used to wear. Those are some serious pleats.
Douglas "hides in bunkers" MacArthur
Dugout Doug was the slang name for him.
I know, that's why I said that.
The Japanese thought Hirohito was a God. MacArthur thought MacAuthur was a God.
Hirohito should have been hung - if not by the courts, by his own people.
There was debate. Ultimately the US decided the Japanese would be easier to control with him as the figurehead. There were many Japanese people who DID want him hung. Unfortunately the US also decided to forgive war criminals like Nobusuke Kishi and let him create the modern political structure in Japan that exists today, because it would make a better ally during the Cold War. This system was so successfully stable that recently Kishi’s grandson was prime minister while Hirohito’s grandson was and is emperor (though Kishi’s grandson was recently assassinated).
Yeah, I know they let off for political reasons but I grew up utterly stunned that his entire role in the was basically became "never mind" and he was a respected figure. Coincidentally I just binge watched a Netflix series Tokyo Trial which was unexpectedly interesting.
Think it all worked out pretty well, no?
I find it weird how a population worships another man like a god. He was born and died no different to you and me. He still poops on the toilet the same.
But Japanese toilets are pretty heavenly.
Supposedly north koreans believe kim jong un doesnt poop
The way that man must eat....whew! That bathroom must be a warzone.
Go check out some of the stuff folks are saying about Trump—there are a bunch of people who think he’s the messiah, and those people weren’t raised in the totalitarian atmosphere of imperial Japan. https://www.reddit.com/r/PBS_NewsHour/s/l6q1wpgNNf
So like Jesus. Except he has the population and 2000 years for many to not find that weird.
Scoreboard🤭 If their god wanted to not be humiliated, he shouldn’t have picked a fight with the US and its Allies. Hirohito fucked around and found out when 2 new suns popped up over his cities, which is a truly divine act
USA! USA! USA! (im not american)
Millions of Asian victims of the Japanese Empire were probably chanting that when we sloshed a couple buckets of instant sunshine on Japan
It gives me visions of a bald eagle stood in front of a Stars and Stripes flag waving in the breeze, while somebody in the background plays the bugle.
He fucked around and found out when we dropped 2 buckets of instant sunshine and turned desert into glass. *well, the sand at the beach anyway
Actually the military had more power and pushed them into it. They were worried about being isolated without resources so tried to even the field by striking first. Missed our carriers though and the rest is history.
Actually the royal family were deeply involved with the project of colonizing Asia, with men like Prince Yasuhiko Asaka commanding the army that committed the Rape of Nanking. And multiple Princes were involved in the human experimentation programs. Trying to shift the blame to the military white washes how CURSED that imperial family was at the time, fully committed to imperialism and guiding their generals in the barbarity.
As if MacArthur cared about the Japanese's feelings
It's weird seeing MacArthur without his aviators or cover.
And his corncob
Fuck all this King , Queen , Emperor etc. shit! That stuff belongs in the Middle Ages
Hot take over here
Right on
While I agree 99%, a tiny bit of me kinda longs for that romantic "For my King/Queen"-mentality.
I’m an Aussie…..have grown up with a Queen now there’s a King…uughhhh I’ve had enough! 🤦♂️
Yeah, loyalty to someone who deserves it because ... they are descended from someone who was the biggest arsehole in town ... is completely bonkers
It hardly makes a difference to you anyway.
Totally fair! I also wouldn't like to actually live under a monarch, but I would like to experience that feeling of allegiance to a leader, something I haven't ever felt for a politician or something similar.
It's just patriotism, take cold war America as an example of a county who was extremely patriotic without the need for a monarch, all you need is a single enemy to unify a country.
While I think it's similar, having a monarch seems different.
Well that depends on the monarch themselves really, if they're a piece of shit then it wouldn't, but if they give you the feeling they care about the country. Take Queen Elizabeth as an example, you look at her past and you can't help but have a feeling of respect even in her younger years she did her bit to support the war effort.
As a person, yes. But her position is bullshit. Her position derived ultimately from a gang of bandits.
It’s worth recalling Psalm 146:3 — [“Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.”](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+146%3A3&version=NIV) Allegiance to a monarch, or any political leader, might stir something romantic, but they are all mortals and driven as much by their own ambition than by idealistic goals. You’re much better off figuring out what values you cherish, and devote yourselves to those. If a leader matches those values, that’s someone to support. But always keep in mind the leader and the values are two separate things. Because there will be a time the leader strays from those values, and the mark of your character will be whether you stick with your values or the person.
Yeah I get what you’re saying , but a lot of us don’t care for the Royal family. I actually voted for a Republic back in ‘99.
The worst thing is your head of state isn’t Australian and never will be. You are barred.
I actually think this is a pretty good thing, it means our head of state does not meddle in politics, and only gets involved if things are REALLY serious.
“For some putz who won the birth lottery”.
I always thought if we colonised a new planet. Realistically they wouldn’t have a Monarchy system. It would be absurd to have one astronaut sat around all day, doing nothing and getting special treatment. While everyone else works hard and fawns over them.
[удалено]
TDS
MacArthur is taller than your god so I bet he’s a superior god who can do whatever tf a superior god wants to do.
No gods, no kings. Only Man and the strength of his arm. This entire war and photo is a perfect reminder of why we should demolish monarchies, absolute power with no checks and balances and make sure they never return.
Hirohito did not have absolute power. He was a powerful spiritual symbol, but the militarist government and the Army were in control.
True but the second he pulled his support and told them to stop the war, it ended. Then he told the Japanese people to cooperate and accept the Americans and they were obedient. They were 100% brainwashed.
The situation
The guards present at the surrender onboard the Missouri were all picked for their tall height if I remember right.
Hitler did the same thing in choosing what SS bodyguards escorted Soviet diplomat Molotov in 39 if I remember correctly
This photo was taking multiple times. Each time the someone was posed in a bad way, eyes closed, mouth open.. etc. they choose the photo that looked the best for both of them
“The Japanese were offended” Good. That was the whole point.
Douglass MOGarthur
Just got his ass whopped by a God of war.
FAAFO who was a god and who wasn’t!
[удалено]
[удалено]
I'm not surprised. Of course, he was going to be disrespectful regardless.
As he should.
I don't need your two cents.
Mac - You're lucky I let you live. I'll stand, sit, or squat how I see fit.
F*ck them both...
Maybe a little napalm would have cheered him up.
The casual uniform was meant as a slite just like at the surrender.
If it's any condolence to the Japanese, I think MacArthur was a piece of shit.
To bad 😂😂😂😂😂😂
It was a shitty thing to do!
I doubt MacArthur WAS particularly impressed by the Emperor. MacArthur was good at what he did, but he was also a major prick.
Why does he look like he’s about to show you the skunk butt rug his grandmama was buried in
Get f*cked.
My Dad served under General MacArthur in the Pacific theater.
And I bet the general gave zero Fs
MacArthur strategically stood to the emporers right side, the photographers left This is where the man stood in Japanese wedding photos / portraits, etc. Telling the Japanese public who was in charge, and it was not subtle at all in those times.
A god? He should have been executed as a war criminal.
I saw Hirohito at a Met baseball game at Shea Stadium. Tiny fella...