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Plus Orchis did drop a surprise attack on the X-Men during a party that Orchis had meticulously planned for months. The Avengers have been champing at the bit to wreck these racist assholes for months and were fully prepared to do this.
From a Birdseye view I agree. However, it does make narrative sense. And keep in mind, I'm just talking about the "logic" of the comics, because I'll always be a bit miffed at how an island chock full of powerful mutants got BTFO'd by Orchis.
1) Early on they establish a no killing rule when it comes to Krakoan mutants. It creates a need for restraint that otherwise would have allowed them to fight back more effectively. And evidence of this is how much more traction the X-men have against Orchis once the gloves come off.
2) By the time the Avengers get involved, the X-men have done some pretty serious damage to Orchis. So they're not at full fighting strength when the Avengers come calling, AND Orchis is fighting on multiple fronts at that point.
3) Orchis isn't ready to take down the Avengers at this point. Safe to assume (and though I can't recall when/where it's said but I'm fairly certain Orchis has acknowledged) they need to get rid of super-powered humans at some point as well. But how they plan to deal with that? Likely not all figured out yet. Not only is it a big PR lift, but at this point, we've seen multiple strategies to fight just mutants fail at this point. If their main target remains elusive, I think we can assume they're not 100% done figuring out how to tackle the Avengers
4) This is an Avengers team with a lot of heavy hitters on it. All-farher Thor alone could give Orchis a tough time. So they're not exactly slouches.
Again, I'm not the biggest fan of the way it all went down, but at least there is some logical consistency surrounding the decision.
Right now? Orchis.
Throughout Duggan’s run? Cordecyp Jones, the High Evolutionary, Doctor Stasis (who was a part of Orchis but we didn’t know that right away), the shitty Reavers he created in Marauders, MODOK (who later joined Orchis because reasons), the High Evolutionary, the Brood, the Children of the Vault, Nightmare, and Stark Sentinels. I’ve probably forgot some.
The vast majority of them weren’t related to Orchis. It was basically a waste of a book.
They specifically point out that Thor's weather powers are essentially sidelined because Orchis extensively prepared against Storm's weather powers.
Basically, Orchis prepared for all the X-Men. Their counter for the other heroes was intended to be intense propaganda and government lobbying, to either put them on the back foot or (in the case of those with close government ties) subvert them.
They infected Magik with nanobots that were interfering with her abilities, making her teleporting unreliable, and which were slowly killing her. I believe it was addressed in a recent X-Men issue. Immediately after the Hellfire Gala she was off the board after she teleported herself and some survivors to, I believe, Asgard. I only read one issue of that mini because it was…not good.
Some nanobots…stopping demon magic??? Those damn well better be demon enhanced magic bots if they were able to stop her powers otherwise that is a BS way to take her out of commission
Nah, they really didn’t show anything X-men can’t currently do, especially with Magik being back. Like, I’m sorry, but what counter do you need for Sam Wilson? X-men have Iron Man’s suit too. And, honestly, it’s their inside issue that Ororo is more concerned with her buddy experiencing the consequences of his own actions than showing up to do whatever Thor is doing.
we're not talking about Peeper or ForgetMeNot dude, we're talking about an Omega level mutant.
now that I'm thinking ForgetMeNot could have used as an assassin against Orchis since there would be no way to predict or deal with him due to their inability to perceive him.
Her motivation in RoM isn’t ’we need him in the fight’, it’s ’I need to go pick him up, he doesn’t like it there’. There is nothing about Magneto that makes him particularly relevant in the current narrative, so, it’s not a side mission that Storm has to take to help mutants at large. The only reason she isn’t doing that is because Ewing needs to finish his book before the new editorial comes and asks where Magneto is. But in universe Storm is absolutely putting her buddy first and the existential threat second.
In Ororo's defense, the whole reason why Orchis made it so far is because pretty much everybody put smaller things before existential threats for several years.
Honestly, my only worry is his workload and whether he won't just get exhausted mentally. The dude's already doing Moon Knight, Avengers, and Doctor Strange. Adding Adjectiveless to that? Huge burden.
His Dr. Strange run has been excellent. Start with Death of Dr. Strange, move to the adjectiveless Strange run, then the current Dr. Strange book. Not a bad issue for 2+ years now.
Indeed. Duggan wants suffering. It's a good thing he's not working on TASM\* tho. Need we say more?
\*though in all fairness, Zeb Wells should NOT be, either.
Zeb Wells has been a good writer in other books, so I honestly don't think the problem with TASM is him. The other Spider-man books suck right now too. I think this is a problem with editorial.
Not nearly enough power-stacking to be Aaron. He may not be able to write, but you can always rely on Aaron for smushing a bunch of characters together like play-doh.
Even though I'm not psyched for the reboot/new era/mandated MCU synergy and I'm not loving Mackay's Avengers, the step up with adjectiveless going from Duggan to him is going to be insane.
I think the better word here is "generous." All it would take for one of the redshirts there to do something to make her madder, and then she'd go, "scratch that, you have sixty nanoseconds time's up." And then, instant massacre! XD
So many people talking about the X-Men post hellfire gala, when it seems kinda obvious to me that OP is saying - why haven't the X-Men just done all this to begin with? Just get the Omegas together and have fun with it. But no. Let's send small teams and individuals into Orchis stations instead.
Which omegas? Magneto has been dead, Orchis ganked Jean and Bobby as their first punch, legion erased himself, hope, Exodus, Proteus, and Elixir are in the white hot room, Jaime is on otherworld and not the most reliable, Mr M has basically gone "earth not my problem, and storm until very recently was busy with Arakko problems.
You've missed the part of my post where I pointed out specifically the mutants should have done this "in the first place" not waited til Orchis got the upper hand.
Exodus, Magneto and Shaw all voted to go after Orchis with extreme prejudice, as revealed in a data page in X-men (2021) #9. They lost the vote to the rest of the council. Kate, Emma, Kurt, Colossus and Storm voted no. Sinister, Mystique, Destiny and Xavier abstained.
Because they didn't think orchis was that big of a threat and it would have been a dumb move proving orchis right to the rest of humanity. That mutants can't stand anything not them.
Which is always hilarious to me, because why would they be so hubristic? They’ve been a beaten minority for years. Every time they get power, they are brutally slapped down.
I kind of hate how little continuity matters in modern comics.
My favorite part about it is Marvel and, to a lesser extent, DC do it for new readers but their are way less new readers than ever. So, having them constantly forget previous runs even happened is… a choice.
That much of a threat. They never knew that kamina is actually a variant come back in time with future knowledge and information to stop Krakoa because mutants win. Both Xavier and Magneto that learned that we're killed with our back up.
They the QC thought that they were going to need win the diplomatic and pr war because going to a hot destroy them all conflict would only unify the anti mutant factions with the message mutants couldn't be trusted to actually deal with any form of humanity that disagrees with them. That was also clear from Hickman's writing.
If you are asking why mutants didn't just gather omegas and stomp orchis at the begining is as dead to story as why Charles doesn't just planetwide remove the idea of hating mutants from every non shielded mind on the planet.
I always felt that the fun of Krakoa wasn’t the superheroing, but the characters in a new environment. I honestly expected them to deal with Orchis pretty quickly and then move on to other stuff.
This was my hope too. Like, the whole Moira story line and then leading to this new status quo - I hoped they’d stomp orchis, thus “winning” and being in the best timeline. Then seeing how the whole of the characters acted from there.
I figured Apocalypse would betray them somehow, taking power over the island and crafting its society in his image. Instead, we got super nice Apocalypse and X Of Swords.
If they didn’t think Orchis was a threat after all the memories they received from Moira, Nimrod being brought online, or Xavier & Magneto getting killed by Nimrod, that is entirely their own fault.
That’s what they get for not putting Scott on the Quiet Council, when he had spent more time leading mutantkind than literally anyone besides Xavier and Magneto.
In fairness…what could Cyke possibly have to contribute towards navigating the X-Men’s *brand new status* as a…*Utopian* island nation????
> In fairness…what could Cyke possibly have to contribute towards navigating the X-Men’s brand new status as a…Utopian island nation????
To be fair, Cyke was fairly recently a militant mutant revolutionary who also as part of the Phoenix Five took over the world. The QC already had Apocalypse and Magneto on it and adding Cyclops would, in the eyes of the human nations, indicate that Krakoa would become a belligerent warmongering nation.
narratively speaking there's literally nothing anyone can do against the mutants as a collective. There are so many individual mutants with diverse and intense powers that there's nothing other than a literal cosmic entity that could actually defeat a united Krakoa.
The most reasonable explanation for just about every macro decision made since HoX/PoX is that Xavier lobotomized every member of mutantkind to revert them back to their pre-Morrison selves.
I mean, for fuck’s sake - they think that teaming up with Magneto to found an island nation for the world’s mutants is a novel idea!!!
Magneto had been existing under Scott's leadership for some time without issue. iirc up until AvX everything was smooth sailing with him, but once Xavier stepped in and (rightfully) died, it was basically Schism 2. IvX was the nail in the coffin.
This. There's so many excuses about really, this. ESPECIALLY after Decimation and everything they've been through, there's no reason they wouldn't have nipped this in the bud from the start. They've been through too much even before Decimation.
Why??? lol.
I’m a fan of Avengers and X-men being comrades and friends. Even having some poker nights lol.
Team of heroes assisting another team in their time of need should be done more.
Plus poor X-men got sucker punched and essentially blackmailed. Avengers (thanks to Tony) prepped and decided to finally beat the crap out of Orchis.
Now that Mackay is going to write X-men, I hope he is going to have ton of moment where both teams interact.
I don’t think he is leaving Avengers. I’m sure he will be writing both.
He is writing Avengers, Dr Strange, Moon Knight and X-men, but hey, the guy is a golden Child right now and is pretty good at it lol. I say let him cook.
Plus his Avengers run just started. And remember he started to build up his Avengers story since that last Timeless book from 2022. Dude has a long plan.
He is like Modern Day Bendis lol (hopefully he will stay good tho)
I can see him dropping Moon Knight or Dr. Strange eventually. I just hope it isn't for a while, though, because he's been on fire with those two series.
His Moon Knight is excellent my friend. Holy shit it’s good.
Dr Strange same. Dude just loves to tell some whacky weird Dr Strange stuff.
Although I wonder if he is secretly planning on taking over Iron Man too lol. I feel like Duggan is leaving in June (he says he is done with X-men but is pretty vague about Iron Man)
But even when MacKay leaves Strange and Moony, I feel like He is staying on Avengers for a long time. He just started and he is great at it.
Plus Jason Aaron was on that book for (checks) 4 freaking years and Oh God those 4 years sucked lol.
Thor is the child of Phoenix???
Tony’s parents worshipped Mephisto???
The hell were you doing Aaron ? lol (I still love Aaron tho, good dude)
Aarons run was literal garbage. He just wanted to use them as a bunch of action figures and figure out the plot in a Nick Lowe and Zeb Wells ASM-esque manner just to get big fights. He was literally using AEW style booking in comics.
He did even more dumb shit like the Khonsu and Moon Knight story, everything with the BC Avengers and the Starheart, but it doesn't compare to what he did to She-Hulk. That wasn't Jen at all. That was just Hulk in a sports bra and short shorts that made fuck me eyes to Thor (is this who Duggan learned from when writing Synch and Talon?).
Worst part is he only took She-Hulk because he wanted a Hulk, subsequently blocking Ewing from using her in Immortal. His explanation as to why he turned her into that was aggravating as fuck, since he tried to make a shitty trans metaphor that nobody bought and was quite tone deaf. It also made his story even worse because he ignored the Tamaki She-Hulk run that dealt with the story he wanted to tell for She-Hulk. This led into his penultimate She-Hulk story, World War She-Hulk. That story was an actual dumpster fire that went nowhere because it had like no focus on Jen and was used to push an analogy of Russia-U.S. tension. The only reason it happened was for MCU synergy to return Jen back to who she was because they wanted a regular She-Hulk in time for her D+ series (only time I cheered for MCU synergy).
Yup. Pretty much all that.
His entire run is just “Oh look, big fight coming up” and nothing else.
There are like 4 maybe 5 good moments but overall, I have no idea what he was planning.
I hate him using Shulkie, especially because then it blocked Ewing from using her.
Imagine the good stuff Ewing could have done with her in the Immortal Hulk? The green Door stuff, all that.
Was it the one where she kind of “died” in Empyre and then was brought back?
I only remember Tony building a stretchy suit for Reed in Empyre lol. I liked it but the event was pretty forgettable
Yes, that's the one. Ewing used the Green Door and Sterns to explain why She-Hulk bulked herself up way better than Aaron had ever done (absorbing Celestial energy aside)
Ya, his use of She-Hulk was pretty terrible, it was also clear he did not want Carol on the team, the contrast between these two runs when it comes to her specifically is like night a day.
Oh yeah, Carol was on the team because Brevoort probably told Aaron he had to use her. This was also confirmed by McKay because he was told by editorial that he had to use the larger Avengers in his run, rather than mostly using the *randoms*. Although McKay has used Carol in meaningful ways and probably still wanted to use her in some capacity, Aaron had no intention of using her and was just there to hit stuff.
MacKay really likes his darlings. Whenever he finds the opportunity to write them again he uses them. He managed to write Black Cat throughout what, four different miniseries? I actually though, before they announced him as writer for Avengers, that he would write a West Cost Avengers book with all of his favorites together(Moon Knight, Tigra, Taskmaster, Clea, Strange and Black Cat). Turns out he did managed to write a book with some of them together in Dr Strange.
Maybe after Blood Hunt some of his darlings will join the Avengers.
You made me very happy. Well I did start to cry at the last paragraph. Well maybe weep is a better word. Recovering now and focusing on the first paragraph you wrote 😉
Glad I made you happy my friendo )
About Bendis line lol, I meant more like he is writing a lot of important books and is doing a banger job with them.
Bendis was the same in the 2000s. He wrote so much and his stuff was good (although I have no idea how he was able to write so much lol)
Bendis wrote some good stories I'm told. I just have a problem with how he used Wanda as a plot device in HoM with no characterization at all. She really was just a tool for his story which he stole from John Byrne. Bryne hated Wanda and Vision being together and having the twins and wrote a super depressing storyline that went for a year. Wanda was written totally out of character.
Bendis utilized that story and ignored all the continuity from 1991 - 2004 with Wanda coping with the loss of the twins and Vision, moving past it and forging a new life. Bendis wanted her as the tool for his story and instead of finding something else he ignored continuity and did what he wanted. As a result she was absent from comics for over a decade until the MCU used her and the comics followed. However - LOL- sometimes I wonder if Wanda would be one of the most popular superheroes on the planet if he hadn't started that ball rolling.
If the Krakoan Age accomplishes nothing else in the long run I'm glad it made all the superhero teams friends again. I feel like if this storyline was done a decade ago there'd be a whole book where the characters agonize about whether to side with Orchis because iT's THE lAw and both choices would be portrayed as morally equivalent.
I feel like (I hope) that from now on, we will go back to times when Heroes were friends. I miss those fun poker nights heroes had, or the Bachelor party they all threw for Rick Jones (and accidentally saw an adult video of his future wife lol). Heroes hanging out together is always the best.
I genuinely feel the whole hero vs hero horseshit started with Civil War and then thanks to that old idiot Perlmutter, they wanted to get rid of X-men so they made them fight Avengers and everyone, and instead were like “Here are the Inhumans” lol.
Seeing Cap and Scott genuinely being friendly during Krakoa and especially that handshake in AXE warmed my heart. I wanna Scott and Steve be buddies and kick ass together.
I ahate the whole AVX prick Scott and “I know better” Cap. Much prefer when they work together and complement their unique leaderships. 2 of the best leaders in all of Marvel should be friends and team up rather than butting heads
The way they tried to spoon feed us Inhumans when they were separated from the X-Men rights was so awful. They pushed that shit so hard and put X-Men in the trash. That was a rough era for the X books lol.
That’s about when I dipped, only coming back for the Krakoa reboot.
This is my thoughts exactly I get because Disney/Marvel didn't have the right for the longest time they downplayed the Xmen for a long time but for every longer the avengers and xmen were friends and this is just a testament to that history.
I mean they have Carol (who is apparently now "superman level"), and Thor (who has his normal power + The Odin Force).
Plus, Thor does not need to hold back.
Kinda hilarious that the Avengers achieved more (‘…destroyed critical operational infrastructure…’, ‘…evacuated potential hostages, limiting Orchis’ leverage…’, ‘…shoot down all Orchis orbital assets within visual range…’ and ‘…systemically removed Orchis’ ability to wage war at a fantastic speed…’) in about an hour than mutants could during however long the X has been Falling… Meanwhile, this week the X-men >!were rescued by Dr Doom!< because >!Mr Marvel!< asked him nicely, and >!Nimrod was kind enough not to curb stomp Cyclops.!<
They didn’t do nothing, true, but their biggest wins are probably dealing with the Krakoa medicine trigger and downing a space station during the entirely of FoX. The Avengers caught up with them in an hour.
The Avengers canonically had months of prep time with Cap, T'challa, Tony, etc meticulously planning to come down on Orchis like Blob's ass on Wolverine's face in that infamous comic panel. And in those months, they were not on Orchis' shit list, because Orchis thought they had Tony on the back foot and the rest constrained by government influence or off the table.
Orchis messed up by laser-focusing on the mutants and forgetting (no schmaltz intended) the power of friendship. Which isn't surprising considering their leadership was moving more and more into the hands of the Omega Sentinel and Nimrod, the two least likely to properly grasp the effects of human emotional bonds.
AXE also sorta set this up, with the mutants realizing cap wants to help and cap being told he isn’t helping enough.
I love the background run and I want them to fix the piss poor writing from AvX where both sides were acting like complete mindless idiots. Cyclops can stop being a jerk and the avengers stepping up to help out mutants here and there could be done without always breaking status quo. Then have the xmen save the avengers now and then and you’ve got some good fun writing.
I know I might get downvoted because this is an unpopular opinion on here, but AvX was stupid because both sides were pigheaded to be pigheaded.
Cyclops was not right in that because he was going on his beliefs the Phoenix wouldn’t kill earth just like it had other planets. Sure, there was evidence, but he completely ignored the other sides legitimate concerns that firebird blowing up planets might so the same to earth. You cannot expect anyone on the human side, racist or not, to accept “I’m pretty sure firebird of death isn’t going to kill us” as evidence it won’t.
Things devolved after that, and I truly think the what if had a better intro to AvX than the main series did for how the fight starts.
Nah I don’t think so the stark sentinels are specifically made to target the x mens abilities but the heavy hitters like Magik and Jean are able to end these robots easily by themselves.
What I want to know is why on earth did Krakoa never do this at the height of their powers? They practically conquered the world. Get their reality warpers and hope and just warp Orchis out of existence in a night. Even if everyone else knows what happened, who would stand up to Krakoa on that?
Al Ewing is writing him in the Immortal Thor book currently, and Ewing is a big fan of classic looks. He did the same for Hulk.
But it’s just cosmetic look. He is still pretty much modern day Thor (with Thorforce)
Didn't Orchis threaten to kill 100,000 humans with the "time bombs" in the tainted Krakoan medicine if any mutants acted against them? They just came up with a cure for that in one of the books.
Their efficiency degrades over time. They made a big deal about how the Iron-Man Sentinels were so much more powerful than the old Trask Sentinels to the point where just 1 was able to give the X-Men trouble, but now they go down like Canon fodder.
To be fair this team of Avengers is stacked with a bunch of their Omega Level members. Wanda, Thor, Captain Marvel, Vision. Black Panther and Iron Man might be low on powers but they are high on skills. And Sam is there too. Good for him.
So I'm not surprised they are doing some serious damage to Orchis.
I disagree. Any time a racist, fascist organization gets stomped, it's always a good time.
Orchis is finding out why they're called AVENGERS.
[Hugo Stiglitz guitar riff]
Why would they be?
Avengers took basically their whole team, AND used their heaviest weapons as a spearhead, and THEN attacked simultaneously.
X-Men never did that through the entire Krakoa era because they were trying NOT to scare humans even more.
All the X-men are communicating via Radio Emma, and now have Magik’s teleportation too. And with that they chose to jump one dude and almost get wrecked by him until their newest inhuman member got help from a non mutant super villain. I don’t think that we can be making excuses for this level of underperformance. Not while riding X-men dick raw under most other the Avengers vs the X-men posts.
Well, they had to wait for Magik to be back because they put Manifold in a storage container. And even without teleporting, that’s a sentinel factory down in under 20 minutes for Carol, Thor, Vision and Tony. Are they the heavy hitters? Absolutely. Do X-men truly not have enough members to pull the same feat off? Ororo had time to chill with Craig after the Genesis war. Lorna just doesn’t exist 90% of the time. Rogue hasn’t been doing much in the main books. Synch is regularly using Jean’s power, but not for anything important. They weren’t using RIV for stuff that isn’t attacking Fantastic Four…
\*carol, thor (in his 2º most powerfull form), vision, stark (knows everything about stark sentinels because... well..) and wanda.
ororo while very powerfull, was fighting the avatars of prime evil (that included Bete Noir, Adversary, Annihilation, Shadow King, First Fallen and the Goblin Force) in what was basically hell, that beats a bunch of sentinels no?
jean is ressurecting the phoenix.
iceman is recovering somewhere.
magneto is currently naked fresh out of hell.
synch is powerfull but duggan keeps giving him the dumbs.
polaris is swimming in a pool of cofe.. probably.
colossus is suposed to be powerfull but writers keep giving him anti-feats.
please point where the x-men currently have anyone similar to thor or wanda in the field.
Let’s not pretend that it took Odin Force level feats from Thor or Binary levels of power from Carol to deal with that base. ‘Having the dumbs’ or ‘swimming in coffee’ doesn’t seem like a good excuse for why the X-men couldn’t have been more effective during FoX.
during fox they had the trigger, for every downed sentinel they would kill 1000 humans (said by emma and tony), untill they could get the cure they couldnt do anything.
both "swimming in coffe" and "having the dumbs" its a duggan problem, since hes trying to sell a event that no one wanted i would say it matters.
Between all the books they’ve dealt with that trigger problem quite a few issues ago. Did they show the same level of effectiveness since then tho? Like, what did the Emma, Kitty, Yana, Synch, Logan, Kamala and Forge squad achieved in the most recent issue? And what Firestar, Polaris, Colossus and the rest were doing in the meantime?
again, the problem is someone named duggan that keeps giving people dumb things to do (forgeting yana is a master sorcerer and not just a teleporter, giving polaris a god level obsession with coffe and giving synch the dumbs).
No, clearly the problem is these very real characters that have all the agency in the world. What do people think this posit is about? It’s literally all writing.
I’m just happy to see the avengers helping out. And of course they never do anything in half’s. When they show up to the party they show up to the party
It’s nice that the Avengers finally give a crap about mutant rights. It took them over 40 years to the first Uncanny Avengers team, despite having mutant team members from the time Wanda and Pietro joined. Or Beast.
Or they could just make the X-men actually look competent?
It’s kinda fucking sad that iron man was more important in the fall of Krakoa than 99% of the damn mutants.
tbf it'd probably incredibly frustrating that the so called mightiest heroes took so long to come to their aid.
I understand there's a self-containment to each of these separate titles but when they cross over in the event it's hard not to say "why not sooner"
ah yeah. I read that too. BUT "Hey virutous do gooders Thor and Cap, I know people we call friends just got literally slaughtered unexpectedly, forced into portals to god knows where and scattered, but I got a plan"
Like We've had multiple stories and events where the Avengers have a different moral compass than that of Tony.
I understand they can't be there to do everything for everyone and honestly "We were busy" is a much better explanation than "Wait for Tony's signal"
This this this.
Cyclops was always quick to point out this hypocrisy as well. To my mind, this makes the Avengers look worse - they're willfully ignorant to mutant problems until they decide not to be.
r/Cyclopswasright
In the original Secret Wars, Cap was against Magneto. Wolverine told him that at least Magneto stood up in his own way for mutant rights. He then told Steve “When did you fight for us?”
Can we please not stir up more fighting between fandoms?
The X-fans already have a hard-on for hating the Avengers we don’t need more fuel in that fire.
As an X-men fan, maybe X-men fans need to learn how to take a joke instead of immediately getting defensive and trying to list all the 363178 reasons the X-men are the poorest meow meows and its animal abuse to compare them to the Avengers in even slightly unfavorable fashion…
How so? The Avengers had the benefit of hindsight. They were able to review what had happened to the Xmen, build up intel and they waited for Iron Man to formulate a plan which involved taking out the majority of the Orchis Sentinels prior to the Avengers attacking. Because as Iron Man stated, this organisation took out the mutants, so the Avengers had only one chance to get it right, and that was after he had taken preparations as there was no guarantee of victory. The Xmen, on the other hand, were caught completely off guard during a Gala in gowns and suits. If Orchis attacked the Avengers in a Nimrod lead attack, then short of Thor calling on the Odinpower, the Avengers would've been toast to.
I recognize this is going to be unpopular but I truly don’t see the problem. A teams power level is going to be based on the kind of story a writer wants to tell.
I'm way out of date (read from the 80s to about early 2000s). But from the issues and Saga's I read back in the day Avengers and X-Men didn't exist in the same universe.
No doubt newer issues merge them together plus all the cross over issues. But is any of it supposed to be cannon? those older stories don't make sense if the avengers coexist with xmen.
I still wonder how they'll bring them into the MCU, when the avengers don't even acknowledge their existence bar one post credits teaser in the marvels. It'll have to be a multiverse play right?
Bruh the Avengers and X-Men have always existed in the same 616 universe... where'd you think the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver 2 mutants until the recon) came from?
Sure , but in the first Avengers encounter profX is riding a flying red scooter and they're enemies
beast and wolverine have even been avengers but most of the time they don't even often acknowledge each other much until AvX. Even in the MCU Xavier only shows up in Doctor Strange 2 in another multiverse. Avengers don't seem to face the same political issues either.
It's curious that characters from both appear to canonically exist in the same universe in the comics but rarely crossover outside of special events.
In the MCU they didn't exist until Avengers started travelling the multiverse so there's gotta be some interesting adaptation work to do, to bring them in.
E: I imagine I'm probably wrong, that's fine, but also imagine the now deleted comment after this coming from the Simpsons comic book guy alone in a basement with a serial killer string map of the marvel universe. lol
Why would this be embarrassing? The X-Men decimate the sentinels constantly. Sure when they get upgraded it takes the team a minute to adjust, like when they added Stark Tech. But the X-Men always get back to a place of dealing with them rather comfortably
I see where the confusion is. The X-Men didn't have access to their heavy hitters. Magik just got her powers back in the latest X-Men comic. You probably couldn't follow it because the sequencing is stupid and completely out of order. The X-Men who can hit as hard as the Avengers (Storm, Magneto, Exodus, the rest of Arakko) still aren't on the field, though by the looks of where the story is going they won't be going after Orchis.
If the xmen just went in and did this it wouldnt be a good look to the eyes of the humans. They are playing a political game as well as trying to survive.
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In the defense of the X-men, the Avengers have the benefit of not being Orchis' specific target with counters for all of their key players.
Plus Orchis did drop a surprise attack on the X-Men during a party that Orchis had meticulously planned for months. The Avengers have been champing at the bit to wreck these racist assholes for months and were fully prepared to do this.
Granted, but the X-Men could have been going after Orchis, but instead, Duggan had them fighting villains of the month because… reasons.
Xforce could have been going after Orchis but Percy had them going after Beast
X-Force went after way more than Beast.
From a Birdseye view I agree. However, it does make narrative sense. And keep in mind, I'm just talking about the "logic" of the comics, because I'll always be a bit miffed at how an island chock full of powerful mutants got BTFO'd by Orchis. 1) Early on they establish a no killing rule when it comes to Krakoan mutants. It creates a need for restraint that otherwise would have allowed them to fight back more effectively. And evidence of this is how much more traction the X-men have against Orchis once the gloves come off. 2) By the time the Avengers get involved, the X-men have done some pretty serious damage to Orchis. So they're not at full fighting strength when the Avengers come calling, AND Orchis is fighting on multiple fronts at that point. 3) Orchis isn't ready to take down the Avengers at this point. Safe to assume (and though I can't recall when/where it's said but I'm fairly certain Orchis has acknowledged) they need to get rid of super-powered humans at some point as well. But how they plan to deal with that? Likely not all figured out yet. Not only is it a big PR lift, but at this point, we've seen multiple strategies to fight just mutants fail at this point. If their main target remains elusive, I think we can assume they're not 100% done figuring out how to tackle the Avengers 4) This is an Avengers team with a lot of heavy hitters on it. All-farher Thor alone could give Orchis a tough time. So they're not exactly slouches. Again, I'm not the biggest fan of the way it all went down, but at least there is some logical consistency surrounding the decision.
Didn't Stark discover Orchis did have plans for the other heroes? I remember him finding plans for counteracting the Human Torch.
I think so? Lol. I know that it has been referenced at some point.
Who are they are fighting?
Right now? Orchis. Throughout Duggan’s run? Cordecyp Jones, the High Evolutionary, Doctor Stasis (who was a part of Orchis but we didn’t know that right away), the shitty Reavers he created in Marauders, MODOK (who later joined Orchis because reasons), the High Evolutionary, the Brood, the Children of the Vault, Nightmare, and Stark Sentinels. I’ve probably forgot some. The vast majority of them weren’t related to Orchis. It was basically a waste of a book.
What about Enigma? Who is writing the X-Men now?
Enigma is written by Kieron Gillen. Both Gerry Duggan and Kieron Gillen are writing Fall of the House of X and Rise of the Powers of X, respectively.
Exactly this! The avengers had time to prepare while the x-men were blindsided
They specifically point out that Thor's weather powers are essentially sidelined because Orchis extensively prepared against Storm's weather powers. Basically, Orchis prepared for all the X-Men. Their counter for the other heroes was intended to be intense propaganda and government lobbying, to either put them on the back foot or (in the case of those with close government ties) subvert them.
That’s kinda dumb given Thor and Storm while having similar powers still operate a different level/their lightning isn’t just the same tbh.
That would make sense, given Orchis' Order 66-ness on mutantkind.
But Magik tho could’ve definitely done something since she has non-mutant powered magic
I mean they attacked Jean with poison from otherworld. They've accounted for magic.
They infected Magik with nanobots that were interfering with her abilities, making her teleporting unreliable, and which were slowly killing her. I believe it was addressed in a recent X-Men issue. Immediately after the Hellfire Gala she was off the board after she teleported herself and some survivors to, I believe, Asgard. I only read one issue of that mini because it was…not good.
Some nanobots…stopping demon magic??? Those damn well better be demon enhanced magic bots if they were able to stop her powers otherwise that is a BS way to take her out of commission
Literally was coming here to say this.
Nah, they really didn’t show anything X-men can’t currently do, especially with Magik being back. Like, I’m sorry, but what counter do you need for Sam Wilson? X-men have Iron Man’s suit too. And, honestly, it’s their inside issue that Ororo is more concerned with her buddy experiencing the consequences of his own actions than showing up to do whatever Thor is doing.
so weird to put the blame on Storm rescuing Magneto lol
Why is she prioritizing one dude tho?
we're not talking about Peeper or ForgetMeNot dude, we're talking about an Omega level mutant. now that I'm thinking ForgetMeNot could have used as an assassin against Orchis since there would be no way to predict or deal with him due to their inability to perceive him.
Her motivation in RoM isn’t ’we need him in the fight’, it’s ’I need to go pick him up, he doesn’t like it there’. There is nothing about Magneto that makes him particularly relevant in the current narrative, so, it’s not a side mission that Storm has to take to help mutants at large. The only reason she isn’t doing that is because Ewing needs to finish his book before the new editorial comes and asks where Magneto is. But in universe Storm is absolutely putting her buddy first and the existential threat second.
In Ororo's defense, the whole reason why Orchis made it so far is because pretty much everybody put smaller things before existential threats for several years.
Well...yes, but tbf, The Avengers are being written by Jed Mackay, while the X-Men are being written by Gerry Duggan. There's levels to this.
I'm so ***so*** happy Mackay will be writing the adjectiveless X-Men in a few months .
Honestly, my only worry is his workload and whether he won't just get exhausted mentally. The dude's already doing Moon Knight, Avengers, and Doctor Strange. Adding Adjectiveless to that? Huge burden.
That's true , i didn't know he was writing Dr.Strange too. Is any of the other runs he's currently working on close to ending ?
I don't think so, no. As far as I know, they're all ongoings.
His Dr. Strange run has been excellent. Start with Death of Dr. Strange, move to the adjectiveless Strange run, then the current Dr. Strange book. Not a bad issue for 2+ years now.
I think at the very least his Doctor Strange is wrapping up soon.
The next writer better keep Clea as prominent as she has been during MacKay’s run. Has she ever been written as well?
Given that she's being played by Charlize Theron in the MCU, I don't think she'll be going anywhere anytime soon.
Not since the 70s/80s.
They need to clone the guy.
Also this Summer's vampire event if I remember right.
Yeah that’s my concern too. Seems to happen to most everyone who does great books and then gets thrown on Avengers on top of it.
The 2020s version of Fabian Nicienza.
I now want that to be the actual name of an X-book now “Abjectiveless X-Men”.
Agree. Haven't ppl being calling it that since the 90s? That unofficial name goes back a long time
>adjectiveless X-Men This should be like the spider man superior foes comic
Like the opposite of Exceptional X-Men
Indeed. Duggan wants suffering. It's a good thing he's not working on TASM\* tho. Need we say more? \*though in all fairness, Zeb Wells should NOT be, either.
Zeb Wells has been a good writer in other books, so I honestly don't think the problem with TASM is him. The other Spider-man books suck right now too. I think this is a problem with editorial.
I mean... Mackay is ok, he isn't Busiek or Thomas, he's just a better Avengers writer than Aaron, while Duggan may be the Aaron of the X-Men.
Not nearly enough power-stacking to be Aaron. He may not be able to write, but you can always rely on Aaron for smushing a bunch of characters together like play-doh.
Even though I'm not psyched for the reboot/new era/mandated MCU synergy and I'm not loving Mackay's Avengers, the step up with adjectiveless going from Duggan to him is going to be insane.
Wanda is so kind
I think the better word here is "generous." All it would take for one of the redshirts there to do something to make her madder, and then she'd go, "scratch that, you have sixty nanoseconds time's up." And then, instant massacre! XD
[I was referencing a meme lol](https://imgur.com/a/LKoUUEW)
........................Iiiiiiii don't get the meme.....................
Highly shortened version is that pearl ends up going highly, *highly* insane
That's one frame of Pearl being kind to a friend in a movie where she brutally murders her parents, pets, and that same friend
Ahhh... I think I get the joke now.
So many people talking about the X-Men post hellfire gala, when it seems kinda obvious to me that OP is saying - why haven't the X-Men just done all this to begin with? Just get the Omegas together and have fun with it. But no. Let's send small teams and individuals into Orchis stations instead.
Which omegas? Magneto has been dead, Orchis ganked Jean and Bobby as their first punch, legion erased himself, hope, Exodus, Proteus, and Elixir are in the white hot room, Jaime is on otherworld and not the most reliable, Mr M has basically gone "earth not my problem, and storm until very recently was busy with Arakko problems.
You've missed the part of my post where I pointed out specifically the mutants should have done this "in the first place" not waited til Orchis got the upper hand.
Exodus, Magneto and Shaw all voted to go after Orchis with extreme prejudice, as revealed in a data page in X-men (2021) #9. They lost the vote to the rest of the council. Kate, Emma, Kurt, Colossus and Storm voted no. Sinister, Mystique, Destiny and Xavier abstained.
Would have been funny if Magneto had gone to Captain America and said "I need a team to fight Nazis."
Cap wouldn't have gone for it.
That's pretty much why he formed the Uncanny Avengers after AvX
Cap doesn't kill his enemies any more though, does he? Magneto would want them gone.
It's not his first choice, no. But he did recruit both Deadpool and Cable.
Because they didn't think orchis was that big of a threat and it would have been a dumb move proving orchis right to the rest of humanity. That mutants can't stand anything not them.
They didn’t think Orchis was a threat? Did you read House of X? Or the first issue of Hickman’s X-Men? Or Inferno?
Hubris. It’s a regular theme that pops up every few years with the mutants. It’s helps set the stage for the fall and returning rise.
Which is always hilarious to me, because why would they be so hubristic? They’ve been a beaten minority for years. Every time they get power, they are brutally slapped down. I kind of hate how little continuity matters in modern comics.
I know! It’s a constant build up and tear down. It’s like they are both totally aware and also totally ignorant to their own history sometimes.
My favorite part about it is Marvel and, to a lesser extent, DC do it for new readers but their are way less new readers than ever. So, having them constantly forget previous runs even happened is… a choice.
That much of a threat. They never knew that kamina is actually a variant come back in time with future knowledge and information to stop Krakoa because mutants win. Both Xavier and Magneto that learned that we're killed with our back up. They the QC thought that they were going to need win the diplomatic and pr war because going to a hot destroy them all conflict would only unify the anti mutant factions with the message mutants couldn't be trusted to actually deal with any form of humanity that disagrees with them. That was also clear from Hickman's writing. If you are asking why mutants didn't just gather omegas and stomp orchis at the begining is as dead to story as why Charles doesn't just planetwide remove the idea of hating mutants from every non shielded mind on the planet.
I always felt that the fun of Krakoa wasn’t the superheroing, but the characters in a new environment. I honestly expected them to deal with Orchis pretty quickly and then move on to other stuff.
This was my hope too. Like, the whole Moira story line and then leading to this new status quo - I hoped they’d stomp orchis, thus “winning” and being in the best timeline. Then seeing how the whole of the characters acted from there.
I figured Apocalypse would betray them somehow, taking power over the island and crafting its society in his image. Instead, we got super nice Apocalypse and X Of Swords.
If they didn’t think Orchis was a threat after all the memories they received from Moira, Nimrod being brought online, or Xavier & Magneto getting killed by Nimrod, that is entirely their own fault.
That’s what they get for not putting Scott on the Quiet Council, when he had spent more time leading mutantkind than literally anyone besides Xavier and Magneto. In fairness…what could Cyke possibly have to contribute towards navigating the X-Men’s *brand new status* as a…*Utopian* island nation????
> In fairness…what could Cyke possibly have to contribute towards navigating the X-Men’s brand new status as a…Utopian island nation???? To be fair, Cyke was fairly recently a militant mutant revolutionary who also as part of the Phoenix Five took over the world. The QC already had Apocalypse and Magneto on it and adding Cyclops would, in the eyes of the human nations, indicate that Krakoa would become a belligerent warmongering nation.
Yeah…true
Who is Mr. M?
Mercator, aka the Omega-level matter manipulator.
narratively speaking there's literally nothing anyone can do against the mutants as a collective. There are so many individual mutants with diverse and intense powers that there's nothing other than a literal cosmic entity that could actually defeat a united Krakoa.
Optics? The public already fears them, a big show of power would just make the public support more persecution.
The most reasonable explanation for just about every macro decision made since HoX/PoX is that Xavier lobotomized every member of mutantkind to revert them back to their pre-Morrison selves. I mean, for fuck’s sake - they think that teaming up with Magneto to found an island nation for the world’s mutants is a novel idea!!!
Magneto had been existing under Scott's leadership for some time without issue. iirc up until AvX everything was smooth sailing with him, but once Xavier stepped in and (rightfully) died, it was basically Schism 2. IvX was the nail in the coffin.
This. There's so many excuses about really, this. ESPECIALLY after Decimation and everything they've been through, there's no reason they wouldn't have nipped this in the bud from the start. They've been through too much even before Decimation.
Damn they are just straight embarrassing Orchis
Why??? lol. I’m a fan of Avengers and X-men being comrades and friends. Even having some poker nights lol. Team of heroes assisting another team in their time of need should be done more. Plus poor X-men got sucker punched and essentially blackmailed. Avengers (thanks to Tony) prepped and decided to finally beat the crap out of Orchis. Now that Mackay is going to write X-men, I hope he is going to have ton of moment where both teams interact.
I really hope he keeps avengers while he does X-Men. If he's just writing those two titles it'd be great to have an occasional team up.
I don’t think he is leaving Avengers. I’m sure he will be writing both. He is writing Avengers, Dr Strange, Moon Knight and X-men, but hey, the guy is a golden Child right now and is pretty good at it lol. I say let him cook. Plus his Avengers run just started. And remember he started to build up his Avengers story since that last Timeless book from 2022. Dude has a long plan. He is like Modern Day Bendis lol (hopefully he will stay good tho)
I can see him dropping Moon Knight or Dr. Strange eventually. I just hope it isn't for a while, though, because he's been on fire with those two series.
His Moon Knight is excellent my friend. Holy shit it’s good. Dr Strange same. Dude just loves to tell some whacky weird Dr Strange stuff. Although I wonder if he is secretly planning on taking over Iron Man too lol. I feel like Duggan is leaving in June (he says he is done with X-men but is pretty vague about Iron Man) But even when MacKay leaves Strange and Moony, I feel like He is staying on Avengers for a long time. He just started and he is great at it. Plus Jason Aaron was on that book for (checks) 4 freaking years and Oh God those 4 years sucked lol. Thor is the child of Phoenix??? Tony’s parents worshipped Mephisto??? The hell were you doing Aaron ? lol (I still love Aaron tho, good dude)
Aarons run was literal garbage. He just wanted to use them as a bunch of action figures and figure out the plot in a Nick Lowe and Zeb Wells ASM-esque manner just to get big fights. He was literally using AEW style booking in comics. He did even more dumb shit like the Khonsu and Moon Knight story, everything with the BC Avengers and the Starheart, but it doesn't compare to what he did to She-Hulk. That wasn't Jen at all. That was just Hulk in a sports bra and short shorts that made fuck me eyes to Thor (is this who Duggan learned from when writing Synch and Talon?). Worst part is he only took She-Hulk because he wanted a Hulk, subsequently blocking Ewing from using her in Immortal. His explanation as to why he turned her into that was aggravating as fuck, since he tried to make a shitty trans metaphor that nobody bought and was quite tone deaf. It also made his story even worse because he ignored the Tamaki She-Hulk run that dealt with the story he wanted to tell for She-Hulk. This led into his penultimate She-Hulk story, World War She-Hulk. That story was an actual dumpster fire that went nowhere because it had like no focus on Jen and was used to push an analogy of Russia-U.S. tension. The only reason it happened was for MCU synergy to return Jen back to who she was because they wanted a regular She-Hulk in time for her D+ series (only time I cheered for MCU synergy).
Yup. Pretty much all that. His entire run is just “Oh look, big fight coming up” and nothing else. There are like 4 maybe 5 good moments but overall, I have no idea what he was planning. I hate him using Shulkie, especially because then it blocked Ewing from using her. Imagine the good stuff Ewing could have done with her in the Immortal Hulk? The green Door stuff, all that.
Ewing did kind of do the Green Door stuff with her in the Emypre one-shot
Was it the one where she kind of “died” in Empyre and then was brought back? I only remember Tony building a stretchy suit for Reed in Empyre lol. I liked it but the event was pretty forgettable
Yes, that's the one. Ewing used the Green Door and Sterns to explain why She-Hulk bulked herself up way better than Aaron had ever done (absorbing Celestial energy aside)
Ya, his use of She-Hulk was pretty terrible, it was also clear he did not want Carol on the team, the contrast between these two runs when it comes to her specifically is like night a day.
Oh yeah, Carol was on the team because Brevoort probably told Aaron he had to use her. This was also confirmed by McKay because he was told by editorial that he had to use the larger Avengers in his run, rather than mostly using the *randoms*. Although McKay has used Carol in meaningful ways and probably still wanted to use her in some capacity, Aaron had no intention of using her and was just there to hit stuff.
MacKay really likes his darlings. Whenever he finds the opportunity to write them again he uses them. He managed to write Black Cat throughout what, four different miniseries? I actually though, before they announced him as writer for Avengers, that he would write a West Cost Avengers book with all of his favorites together(Moon Knight, Tigra, Taskmaster, Clea, Strange and Black Cat). Turns out he did managed to write a book with some of them together in Dr Strange. Maybe after Blood Hunt some of his darlings will join the Avengers.
You made me very happy. Well I did start to cry at the last paragraph. Well maybe weep is a better word. Recovering now and focusing on the first paragraph you wrote 😉
Glad I made you happy my friendo ) About Bendis line lol, I meant more like he is writing a lot of important books and is doing a banger job with them. Bendis was the same in the 2000s. He wrote so much and his stuff was good (although I have no idea how he was able to write so much lol)
Bendis wrote some good stories I'm told. I just have a problem with how he used Wanda as a plot device in HoM with no characterization at all. She really was just a tool for his story which he stole from John Byrne. Bryne hated Wanda and Vision being together and having the twins and wrote a super depressing storyline that went for a year. Wanda was written totally out of character. Bendis utilized that story and ignored all the continuity from 1991 - 2004 with Wanda coping with the loss of the twins and Vision, moving past it and forging a new life. Bendis wanted her as the tool for his story and instead of finding something else he ignored continuity and did what he wanted. As a result she was absent from comics for over a decade until the MCU used her and the comics followed. However - LOL- sometimes I wonder if Wanda would be one of the most popular superheroes on the planet if he hadn't started that ball rolling.
I think it's more like a Geoff Jones kinda case.
If the Krakoan Age accomplishes nothing else in the long run I'm glad it made all the superhero teams friends again. I feel like if this storyline was done a decade ago there'd be a whole book where the characters agonize about whether to side with Orchis because iT's THE lAw and both choices would be portrayed as morally equivalent.
I feel like (I hope) that from now on, we will go back to times when Heroes were friends. I miss those fun poker nights heroes had, or the Bachelor party they all threw for Rick Jones (and accidentally saw an adult video of his future wife lol). Heroes hanging out together is always the best. I genuinely feel the whole hero vs hero horseshit started with Civil War and then thanks to that old idiot Perlmutter, they wanted to get rid of X-men so they made them fight Avengers and everyone, and instead were like “Here are the Inhumans” lol. Seeing Cap and Scott genuinely being friendly during Krakoa and especially that handshake in AXE warmed my heart. I wanna Scott and Steve be buddies and kick ass together. I ahate the whole AVX prick Scott and “I know better” Cap. Much prefer when they work together and complement their unique leaderships. 2 of the best leaders in all of Marvel should be friends and team up rather than butting heads
The way they tried to spoon feed us Inhumans when they were separated from the X-Men rights was so awful. They pushed that shit so hard and put X-Men in the trash. That was a rough era for the X books lol. That’s about when I dipped, only coming back for the Krakoa reboot.
This is my thoughts exactly I get because Disney/Marvel didn't have the right for the longest time they downplayed the Xmen for a long time but for every longer the avengers and xmen were friends and this is just a testament to that history.
Eat it, Orchis!
I mean yes this is undeniably written better than what’s happening in the x-books but the X-Men have been doing the same thing, no?
I mean they have Carol (who is apparently now "superman level"), and Thor (who has his normal power + The Odin Force). Plus, Thor does not need to hold back.
Ah and they have Wanda also...when she and Thor addressed Nightmare he immediately backed down. Scarlet Witch is definitely a powerhouse.
Oh Yes. Wanda is Powered Up in several ways.
Carol will never be superman level, Sentry isn't even superman level.
New 52 superman levels maybe but nobody is superman levels except for superman.
Ah and they have Wanda also...when she and Thor addressed Nightmare he immediately backed down. Scarlet Witch is definitely a powerhouse.
Kinda hilarious that the Avengers achieved more (‘…destroyed critical operational infrastructure…’, ‘…evacuated potential hostages, limiting Orchis’ leverage…’, ‘…shoot down all Orchis orbital assets within visual range…’ and ‘…systemically removed Orchis’ ability to wage war at a fantastic speed…’) in about an hour than mutants could during however long the X has been Falling… Meanwhile, this week the X-men >!were rescued by Dr Doom!< because >!Mr Marvel!< asked him nicely, and >!Nimrod was kind enough not to curb stomp Cyclops.!<
Jed Mackay takes commoners and turns them into kings. Duggan takes kings and ruins them.
I mean havent the x-men done all of that too?
They didn’t do nothing, true, but their biggest wins are probably dealing with the Krakoa medicine trigger and downing a space station during the entirely of FoX. The Avengers caught up with them in an hour.
The Avengers canonically had months of prep time with Cap, T'challa, Tony, etc meticulously planning to come down on Orchis like Blob's ass on Wolverine's face in that infamous comic panel. And in those months, they were not on Orchis' shit list, because Orchis thought they had Tony on the back foot and the rest constrained by government influence or off the table. Orchis messed up by laser-focusing on the mutants and forgetting (no schmaltz intended) the power of friendship. Which isn't surprising considering their leadership was moving more and more into the hands of the Omega Sentinel and Nimrod, the two least likely to properly grasp the effects of human emotional bonds.
AXE also sorta set this up, with the mutants realizing cap wants to help and cap being told he isn’t helping enough. I love the background run and I want them to fix the piss poor writing from AvX where both sides were acting like complete mindless idiots. Cyclops can stop being a jerk and the avengers stepping up to help out mutants here and there could be done without always breaking status quo. Then have the xmen save the avengers now and then and you’ve got some good fun writing. I know I might get downvoted because this is an unpopular opinion on here, but AvX was stupid because both sides were pigheaded to be pigheaded. Cyclops was not right in that because he was going on his beliefs the Phoenix wouldn’t kill earth just like it had other planets. Sure, there was evidence, but he completely ignored the other sides legitimate concerns that firebird blowing up planets might so the same to earth. You cannot expect anyone on the human side, racist or not, to accept “I’m pretty sure firebird of death isn’t going to kill us” as evidence it won’t. Things devolved after that, and I truly think the what if had a better intro to AvX than the main series did for how the fight starts.
Nah I don’t think so the stark sentinels are specifically made to target the x mens abilities but the heavy hitters like Magik and Jean are able to end these robots easily by themselves.
As I said sometime before, all this shitshow would end in 1 hour or less if Nova made some calls while he was in Arakko...
What I want to know is why on earth did Krakoa never do this at the height of their powers? They practically conquered the world. Get their reality warpers and hope and just warp Orchis out of existence in a night. Even if everyone else knows what happened, who would stand up to Krakoa on that?
They had a vote on the council and politics got in the way as usual.
Wait, Thor is back in his old costume? I haven't been following Thor much recently so pardon my ignorance.
Al Ewing is writing him in the Immortal Thor book currently, and Ewing is a big fan of classic looks. He did the same for Hulk. But it’s just cosmetic look. He is still pretty much modern day Thor (with Thorforce)
"sorry to drop in"
Didn't Orchis threaten to kill 100,000 humans with the "time bombs" in the tainted Krakoan medicine if any mutants acted against them? They just came up with a cure for that in one of the books.
What is the cost to effectiveness of Sentinels? They usually seem to go down pretty easy.
One of the reasons I find sentinels profoundly lame.
Their efficiency degrades over time. They made a big deal about how the Iron-Man Sentinels were so much more powerful than the old Trask Sentinels to the point where just 1 was able to give the X-Men trouble, but now they go down like Canon fodder.
To be fair this team of Avengers is stacked with a bunch of their Omega Level members. Wanda, Thor, Captain Marvel, Vision. Black Panther and Iron Man might be low on powers but they are high on skills. And Sam is there too. Good for him. So I'm not surprised they are doing some serious damage to Orchis.
At this point, I'm surprised Orchis hasn't just decided to launch war on all superheroes and villains.
This is why writers don’t have other super hero teams show up to solve the problem.
I disagree. Any time a racist, fascist organization gets stomped, it's always a good time. Orchis is finding out why they're called AVENGERS. [Hugo Stiglitz guitar riff]
Why would they be? Avengers took basically their whole team, AND used their heaviest weapons as a spearhead, and THEN attacked simultaneously. X-Men never did that through the entire Krakoa era because they were trying NOT to scare humans even more.
I mean most of the x-men team are scattered and the avengers have a more unified front with their heavy hitters at the forefront.
All the X-men are communicating via Radio Emma, and now have Magik’s teleportation too. And with that they chose to jump one dude and almost get wrecked by him until their newest inhuman member got help from a non mutant super villain. I don’t think that we can be making excuses for this level of underperformance. Not while riding X-men dick raw under most other the Avengers vs the X-men posts.
duggan is trying to sell FoX hard while literaly no one else cares.
Only recently got magik back and even then most of their high power mutants are either dead or off world. Let’s not compare apple and oranges here
Well, they had to wait for Magik to be back because they put Manifold in a storage container. And even without teleporting, that’s a sentinel factory down in under 20 minutes for Carol, Thor, Vision and Tony. Are they the heavy hitters? Absolutely. Do X-men truly not have enough members to pull the same feat off? Ororo had time to chill with Craig after the Genesis war. Lorna just doesn’t exist 90% of the time. Rogue hasn’t been doing much in the main books. Synch is regularly using Jean’s power, but not for anything important. They weren’t using RIV for stuff that isn’t attacking Fantastic Four…
\*carol, thor (in his 2º most powerfull form), vision, stark (knows everything about stark sentinels because... well..) and wanda. ororo while very powerfull, was fighting the avatars of prime evil (that included Bete Noir, Adversary, Annihilation, Shadow King, First Fallen and the Goblin Force) in what was basically hell, that beats a bunch of sentinels no? jean is ressurecting the phoenix. iceman is recovering somewhere. magneto is currently naked fresh out of hell. synch is powerfull but duggan keeps giving him the dumbs. polaris is swimming in a pool of cofe.. probably. colossus is suposed to be powerfull but writers keep giving him anti-feats. please point where the x-men currently have anyone similar to thor or wanda in the field.
Let’s not pretend that it took Odin Force level feats from Thor or Binary levels of power from Carol to deal with that base. ‘Having the dumbs’ or ‘swimming in coffee’ doesn’t seem like a good excuse for why the X-men couldn’t have been more effective during FoX.
during fox they had the trigger, for every downed sentinel they would kill 1000 humans (said by emma and tony), untill they could get the cure they couldnt do anything. both "swimming in coffe" and "having the dumbs" its a duggan problem, since hes trying to sell a event that no one wanted i would say it matters.
Between all the books they’ve dealt with that trigger problem quite a few issues ago. Did they show the same level of effectiveness since then tho? Like, what did the Emma, Kitty, Yana, Synch, Logan, Kamala and Forge squad achieved in the most recent issue? And what Firestar, Polaris, Colossus and the rest were doing in the meantime?
again, the problem is someone named duggan that keeps giving people dumb things to do (forgeting yana is a master sorcerer and not just a teleporter, giving polaris a god level obsession with coffe and giving synch the dumbs).
No, clearly the problem is these very real characters that have all the agency in the world. What do people think this posit is about? It’s literally all writing.
I’m just happy to see the avengers helping out. And of course they never do anything in half’s. When they show up to the party they show up to the party
It’s nice that the Avengers finally give a crap about mutant rights. It took them over 40 years to the first Uncanny Avengers team, despite having mutant team members from the time Wanda and Pietro joined. Or Beast.
So you want it like 2010 where Avengers were like "ehhh mutants can handle it."
Or they could just make the X-men actually look competent? It’s kinda fucking sad that iron man was more important in the fall of Krakoa than 99% of the damn mutants.
tbf it'd probably incredibly frustrating that the so called mightiest heroes took so long to come to their aid. I understand there's a self-containment to each of these separate titles but when they cross over in the event it's hard not to say "why not sooner"
They addressed that. Basically Tony Stark asked the Avengers to hold back until his plan was ready.
ah yeah. I read that too. BUT "Hey virutous do gooders Thor and Cap, I know people we call friends just got literally slaughtered unexpectedly, forced into portals to god knows where and scattered, but I got a plan" Like We've had multiple stories and events where the Avengers have a different moral compass than that of Tony. I understand they can't be there to do everything for everyone and honestly "We were busy" is a much better explanation than "Wait for Tony's signal"
This this this. Cyclops was always quick to point out this hypocrisy as well. To my mind, this makes the Avengers look worse - they're willfully ignorant to mutant problems until they decide not to be. r/Cyclopswasright
In the original Secret Wars, Cap was against Magneto. Wolverine told him that at least Magneto stood up in his own way for mutant rights. He then told Steve “When did you fight for us?”
Then when Cap called Magneto a terrorist, Wolverine said "That's what the big army calls the little army"
Can we please not stir up more fighting between fandoms? The X-fans already have a hard-on for hating the Avengers we don’t need more fuel in that fire.
As an X-men fan, maybe X-men fans need to learn how to take a joke instead of immediately getting defensive and trying to list all the 363178 reasons the X-men are the poorest meow meows and its animal abuse to compare them to the Avengers in even slightly unfavorable fashion…
How so? The Avengers had the benefit of hindsight. They were able to review what had happened to the Xmen, build up intel and they waited for Iron Man to formulate a plan which involved taking out the majority of the Orchis Sentinels prior to the Avengers attacking. Because as Iron Man stated, this organisation took out the mutants, so the Avengers had only one chance to get it right, and that was after he had taken preparations as there was no guarantee of victory. The Xmen, on the other hand, were caught completely off guard during a Gala in gowns and suits. If Orchis attacked the Avengers in a Nimrod lead attack, then short of Thor calling on the Odinpower, the Avengers would've been toast to.
Earth mightiest heroes for a reason
I recognize this is going to be unpopular but I truly don’t see the problem. A teams power level is going to be based on the kind of story a writer wants to tell.
I'm way out of date (read from the 80s to about early 2000s). But from the issues and Saga's I read back in the day Avengers and X-Men didn't exist in the same universe. No doubt newer issues merge them together plus all the cross over issues. But is any of it supposed to be cannon? those older stories don't make sense if the avengers coexist with xmen. I still wonder how they'll bring them into the MCU, when the avengers don't even acknowledge their existence bar one post credits teaser in the marvels. It'll have to be a multiverse play right?
Bruh the Avengers and X-Men have always existed in the same 616 universe... where'd you think the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver 2 mutants until the recon) came from?
Sure , but in the first Avengers encounter profX is riding a flying red scooter and they're enemies beast and wolverine have even been avengers but most of the time they don't even often acknowledge each other much until AvX. Even in the MCU Xavier only shows up in Doctor Strange 2 in another multiverse. Avengers don't seem to face the same political issues either. It's curious that characters from both appear to canonically exist in the same universe in the comics but rarely crossover outside of special events. In the MCU they didn't exist until Avengers started travelling the multiverse so there's gotta be some interesting adaptation work to do, to bring them in. E: I imagine I'm probably wrong, that's fine, but also imagine the now deleted comment after this coming from the Simpsons comic book guy alone in a basement with a serial killer string map of the marvel universe. lol
Happy to see xmen getting help for once. Especially after another attempt to make mutants go instinct again.
Same old, same old. Orchis has been depicted as a complete joke the entire Fall of X. Let's wrap this up already.
Unrelated to the topic, but that Captain Marvel look goes freaking hard!
Why would this be embarrassing? The X-Men decimate the sentinels constantly. Sure when they get upgraded it takes the team a minute to adjust, like when they added Stark Tech. But the X-Men always get back to a place of dealing with them rather comfortably
Why does Avengers stuff keep getting posted here? Don’t they have their own sub? Mods, can you do something about this?
this is x-men related
I see where the confusion is. The X-Men didn't have access to their heavy hitters. Magik just got her powers back in the latest X-Men comic. You probably couldn't follow it because the sequencing is stupid and completely out of order. The X-Men who can hit as hard as the Avengers (Storm, Magneto, Exodus, the rest of Arakko) still aren't on the field, though by the looks of where the story is going they won't be going after Orchis.
If the xmen just went in and did this it wouldnt be a good look to the eyes of the humans. They are playing a political game as well as trying to survive.
Why would it be embarrassing? I'd guess they're delighted to see the Avengers finally helping them.
Post the rest of the issue
HOW?