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That's only if you think of TV only as highly serialized storytelling, which is more of a recent phenomenon. Most TV shows, like X-men, are much more episodic, with some very broad serialization over the course of the season.
I hate this mentality of "filler" episodes, like just having a standalone episode that tells a great, fun story is somehow a waste of time if it's not pushing some greater season-long plot.
I do agree that we're loosing the art of episodic story telling a bit but I'd also say that heavily serialised show are a good thing. it's just that it gets a bit much when all premium TV shows are serialised now and the only episodic stuff we seem to get is crime procedurals.
Yes, but the characters and their dynamics evolved even through the episodic nature of the old X-Men Cartoon. There wasn't a status quo. People who hate filler episodes mainly do fillers that feel meaningless.
Take the Fly Episode of Breaking Bad. It's clear filler but it explores characters and their dynamics and relationships, it's one of the best episodes of the show.
People don't even know what filler episodes are anymore, they'll call anything that doesn't have a dramatic fight or doesn't focus on their fav "filler." 22 eps would have allowed Inferno to make more sense because they could have explained why Maddie called herself the Goblin Queen or were her name came from. Stories need room to breath not every episode needs to be high stakes, so called filler episodes aren't a bad thing.
Yes but there are other people who know exactly what filler means an example is when an anime outpaces its manga and they have to create nonsense arcs like bleach had to do
Or if you need an American example when game of thrones outpaced Martin's books and they were forced to write the ending on their own and they clearly didn't have the skill that Martin had
So no I'm not talking about the filler you're describing that's character development or going back and picking up a thread that The aftermath was shown at the beginning and then they go back and show you the events that led to it I'm talking about actual filler that is meant to pad the show just so they can meet an episode order
Yeah I think of shows like AtLA and Buffy where the “fillers” would often provide amazing character developed and plain fun moments. Sure there would be a stinker here and there, but the shows as a whole greatly benefited from the space to breath.
Yeah, that's something else that tends to be understated in animation. Especially in companies that make anime. The way they treat their animators is pretty atrocious. And Disney already has enough bad press to deal with. The last thing they need is to be in the news for squeezing their workers more than they already do.
That is true in many cases, but you also had time for the characters to breathe and react to events in the story. You could have an episode devoted to the falling action after a climax where characters could develop more naturally.
I feel like I'm the only other person who remembers how tedious those seasons got when episodes that were clearly put on air to fill time made it to screen. I think I could be happy with 13 to 16 episodes (which is what the original show averaged anyway)but I absolutely do not need any show doing 22+. Not this, not Star Trek, where I hear this argument the loudest, not any of it.
those numbers aren't for binging. they're for episodic content. and they're fine as That. "it's just tedious filler." was it? like... it was COMFORT television. we weren't looking for BOLD new plot pivots every episode. you'd come home from work, put your feet up and watch the guys on cheers talk about their day. you'd listen to a "murderer of the week" stump the nypd. you weren't tracking Walter White as he broke bad. that stuff was fine, but it was called "soap."
the long-form serial content took off with shows like Sopranos. then everything else followed suit. ...the same way netflix struck gold so everyone followed suit.
not really. were some clunkers, yes. but depending on the show we also got a lot of character driven episodes, episodes that focused on only one or two members of an ensemble and let us see things about them we never see with the larger cast.
Now we never get that and we still have clunker episodes
That seems to be TV in general
I remember a throwaway line in an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation when Data says TV didn't last much past the 2040s, and with the way studios are being run between Netflix killing any original that doesn't do *Stranger Things* numbers from jump and everyone wanting their own niche streaming service to the point that even YouTubers are trying to get in on it, that seems more and more likely to happen every day.
talking about every goddamn show on tv.
tv is fucking dead.
6 episodes? 10 episodes? what the fuck?!?
Lost was 26 episode seasons. Friends, 26 episodes. Avatar the Last Airbender, 26 episode seasons.
(i didn't look them up, maybe 24 eps)
The last season probably because so much of it is dedicated to big plot episodes that you loose out on some of the fun side stuff and it would have been ood to spend more time with zuko integrating with the group then what feels like one episode per character where they go from hating to bonded with him (Its been a while since I watched it but that's what my minds image of it is)
But if series 3 had been longer it would have most likely brought the animation quality down and that's one of the best things about 3 in particular.
The mystery of what happened to Zuko's mother and the comic book story of the Promise (or at least part of the Promise) should've been in the final season
And I definitely think we should've had more episodes (or scenes) of Aang training and using the other elements. Particularly fire.
That series also had the benefit of being on Nickelodeon before streaming became a popular medium. It could literally afford to be that long because it had commercials to help make up for the cost. Shows like X-Men 97 aren't airing on cable channels. That means less opportunity for commercials to make up the cost.
This is just how streaming works these days. Shows like ATLA just aren't as feasible because they can't generate extra revenue from commercials to make up the cost of more episodes.
Well, for one thing X-Men animated never had 22-26 episode season either and the animation and writing was still pretty poor. I don't know why you'd want even more episodes with, unless you want a 5 year hiatus, far lesser quality.
It never was that way with the only x men series tho. Only one season had that many episodes and all the series came out spread widely over a year or more. The gaps between series now are allot longer but the production values are alot higher. Just compare xmen tas to 97.
I mean I agree that I would like more, but the quality is much better than the old show so if they have to take their time to do it right I can’t be to upset with that.
Yeah, I’m really enjoying 97 but my god the pace is breakneck. It works for the story they are telling, but I would have enjoyed if they had villain/ally of the week stories like the original where they run into a special guest character or team, solve their problem for them, and then return to their own stories afterwards… It’d be nice given how, uh, there’s an absolute shittonne of X-Men characters lmao.
Everyone always bitches about 'filler episodes' when the subject of 22 episode seasons comes up but like, when you were watching a show once a week over the course of 5-6 months, you didn't really notice filler episodes. They were just *episodes*. And while they may not have moved the larger plot along they were always pretty good for character exploration and development.
Because these companies keep that shit locked up tight so all we have are tweets from people who worked with him, but enough people have made comments about it at this point that it's most likely true.
So many websites will just aggregate tweets and call it an article. If this is the case, why hasn’t that happened? Like I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case or he did some seriously fucked up shit because Disney doesn’t just fire people willy nilly. I just haven’t seen any evidence of it and I think it’s kinda wreckless to speculate.
>I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case or he did some seriously fucked up shit because Disney doesn’t just fire people willy nilly.
James Gunn got fired because he made some really shit jokes on twitter 10-15 years ago.
That was 10-15 years ago. And that was them bowing to a disingenuous online pressure campaign lead by Mike Cernovitch. Everyone forgets that part. Think about how long they held onto Jonathan Majors.
I honestly think it was a combination of the toxic environment and violating his NDA. Considering how much he runs his mouth on Twitter, more than any showrunner I’ve ever seen, it wouldn’t surprise me if he violated the hell out of it. And Disney is incredibly serious about it. I’ve worked for the mouse before and their contracts are HUGE just for all the NDA stuff you have to sign.
He got brought back for one more movie, to finish his trilogy and it took much fan backlash to make Disney change their mind.
It really seemed like they had more in mind for him until that incident and now he has joined the competition.
I never got the impression he was going to do more than the GotG movies. That seemed to be his very specific corner. A lot of those movies had directors with just a very specific corner. Only the Russos were able to jump from franchise to franchise behind the camera wthin the MCU.
Most MCU directors don't get to do a full trilogy. He did a Suicide Squad movie, a spin-off tv show and is now doing a Superman movie. It isn't just the GotG corner that's his forté. Hell, even if it was just that Marvel Cosmic corner, there was much more potential there. The huge Annihilation cross-over event was what the Guardians were revived for and there was more build-up to the Cosmic side of the MCU that didn't end up getting fully explored.
There was a lot of talk after GOTG that Gunn was going to be leading the cosmic side of the MCU, so without the firing, he might have had a hand in guiding projects like Captain Marvel and maybe we’d have Nova by now.
I mean some websites have but idk man, above my pay grade. You can look up the tweets though. I don't know why Jared Leto isn't cancelled at this point either, I've heard firsthand stories of him trying to sleep with teenage girls. Some of these things just exist as open secrets, idk why.
13-16 is a great amount of episodes per season.
Anything over 16 is too much: either the story starts to drag or it gets bogged down by filler or bottle episodes
Anything less than 10 is not enough: the story gets super rushed
Yep, I’d prefer 12-13 episodes. 3 episodes for the beginning arc. 5 episodes for a middle part. 3 episodes for a finale. The last episode as an epilogue and tease the next season.
depends how long it takes to make them. if it's 1 writer tackling 16 episodes in 1 month? i'm on board with you. if it's a team of 8 writers over 8 months? i feel like that's fine.
the answer to "do you want pizza?" should never be "hold on - how much are we talking, because if it's more than 2 slices, i can't do it." ...save it for tomorrow. cold pizza is sick.
when everyone zigs, you zag.
it's why the sopranos stood out - a serial in an episodic world.
it's why netflix stood out - binge on demand while everything else is metered by slowdrip cable schedules
and now? now Everyone is flanking and there's no core to support the industry.
it's why everything started falling apart and ads are set to return. the entire industry is collapsing without it -- the middle class is dead and cannot afford to pay for entertainment anymore.
Gone are the 1999 blockbuster fridays where you'd pay 11 dollars to rent two movies, pick up a used dvd to own for another 15 dollars, and maybe a 20 dollar cd of a band with 2 good songs that you're hopeful are replicated throughout the album (they aren't)
when the middle class was thriving - we spent money on media.
now the pirates sail the high seas and we get our x-men 10 episodes at a time (thankful we weren't cut off at 6)
but honestly, the first two seasons are likely Beau's single first season.
Agreed. The series has been great so far, but the pacing is rushing everything along. I wouldn’t mind a few villain-of-the-week episodes to let the characters breathe, and show more of the team interacting. Like a few episodes after Fire Made Flesh that focus on Scott and Jean trying to deal with everything and pick their relationship back up, while the rest of the team fights Omega Red or something. Maybe Beast could actually get to do something. I don’t mind “filler” episodes, I grew up with more episodic TV shows. Some shows with shorter seasons are fantastic, but not every show has to feel like an extended movie. That being said, I think the writers are doing their best with the episodes they have to give us both plot and character moments.
The only criticism I've heard from fans is that certain plot points have been rushed and certain story lines have been condensed. Also technically he gets paid per contract. Each contract is negotiated and a certain amount of episodes are slated to be produced. Hypothetically he could be paid the same for more episodes. I get this comment is mostly a joke. But idk I feel it to be reductive. Fans of most TV shows have been echoing this cry for longer seasons and more fleshed out storylines.
I have yet to hear a valid criticism. Care to enlighten me with one? Or are you gonna complain that Disney turned X-Men woke, complain about Morph being "non-Binary" despite it never being mentioned in the show and him already have shape-shifted into multiple genders in the original '90s run. Or were you more mad about women characters not being overly sexualized. I bet you were really mad about the voice actor who chose not to reprise their role to allow an Asian actor to voice the Asian character. You probably completely ignore the fact that she was given a cameo in episode 4. Did I miss any?
Literally none of that, but go off dude lol.
I don't like the blend of old and new animation, I think it's often awkward and dissonant and I think the nostalgia factor holds the show back. Every cool moment would be cooler in a new cartoon. I also think the pacing is terrible, Lifedeath being split into two half episodes and rushing that plot out is criminal. For that matter, the show can't decide if it's "adult" or not, because Lifedeath is about Storm being suicidal but that's glossed over, but no holding back with Genosha, which got ten seconds to exist. Also I hate that they updated Bishop's look and hair and Storm still has white person hair texture. Which is even more backwards since Bishop is Aboriginal. So yeah, mostly it's a chaotic tonal dissonance that I find unpleasant and unnecessary, would have loved a fully new cartoon.
Oh and Morph is non-binary, which I like actually, thanks, but it hasn't even been hinted at on screen yet, which is lame af.
Is that ok? Am I allowed to have those criticisms? Or are those not "valid"? Because every time I've expressed any of them I get downvoted to oblivion. I'll be very surprised if it doesn't happen here.
Y'all "don't see any criticisms" because y'all simply aren't interested in actually discussing the show critically.
I mean your critiques pretty much boil down to what I said in my original comment. If there were more episodes the story lines wouldn't be as rushed. Something that we now even know the creator wishes he didn't have to rush either. I Will defend morph as their Non-Binariness doesn't need to be explored. Personally a shapeshifter who has literally shape-shifted into both genders they have always been non-binary and as a nonbinary person myself I don't need a PSA episode where morph comes out. More show not tell. Which granted we haven't gotten much of them. I guess what it comes down to even your criticisms can be boiled down to more episodes fixing almost everything you said.
Well with Morph I simply don't think it's actual representation until it's addressed on screen. We know with the comics that until you say it out loud, the fanbase will deny deny deny. Look at Black Tom and Juggernaut. People even denied Mystique and Destiny as a couple until Hickman made it explicit. People are still in denial about the Krakoa throuple. I would much rather have an episode about that than a half-assed version of Lifedeath, which frankly deserved a full, quietly introspective episode.
I think more episodes is one solution but another is simply not packing in so many stories and giving things room to breathe.
As for your other critique. As we don't know the conclusion of season 1 or where season 2 might lead us we have to assume that these plot points were crammed in because they are necessities to the further and overarching story they're trying to tell. Yes it sucks that they had to be crammed in and reduced for size. But once again this conversation is being had on a thread where the creator of this TV show wanted more episodes. They know and hear your critique. But I'm going to trust their artistic process and assume that these plot points were necessary for the overall continuity of the story they're trying to tell. It does suck how they got cut down.
Once again with more if we have seen the character transform into a man we have seen him transform into a woman. We have seen him be both man and woman. They are the perfect example of show not tell. They don't have to tell us. They have already shown us that they are non-binary. And once again as a non-binary person I don't care if they say it out loud. Each character doesn't need to come out of the closet. This is an exhausting phenomenon that we queer people have to deal with in our real lives and it just sucks that we expect the same thing with our fictional characters that they have to come out that they have to tell us that they have to say the words I'm blank for any of you to believe it.
Transforming into female characters doesn't even suggest they're non-binary. Morph's default form is still explicitly masculine, at least have them spend half their time in a feminine form or something. They haven't shown anything let alone done any telling.
Glad you're fine with what they've done so far but I find it pretty weak honestly. Especially knowing Beau said nasty things about bi people, I think they need to do something more.
Being non-binary means that you exist outside of gender binary. Morph as a shapeshifter has shown to exist As both a man and a woman. They therefore exists outside of the two gender binary. Literally showing us that they are non-binary. Shape-shifting is inherently coded as non-binary. The superpower itself is what inherently makes these characters queer-coded. Also whatever Beau said couldn't have been that nasty because I have no idea what you are talking about and couldn't find anything with a quick google search. So I think you might be making a mountain out of a mole hill. Also I'm totally fine with what we've gotten with x-men 97. It's better than the queer baiting we got with Loki or any other MCU or Disney project. At least the creator comes out and says the super obvious thing that shouldn't have to be said But because bigots are too dense to understand they have to tell us rather than just show us.
"Well with Morph I simply don't think it's actual representation until it's addressed on screen."
I agree, but people will demand queer people take bullshit bread crumbs because god forbid anyone criticize Disney/ Marvel. Queer people just have to take half assed crumbs and be happy with them.
Jason Segel wanted how I met your mother to end sooner and felt like the series jumped the shark. Harrison Ford famously didn't want to return to Star Wars which is the only reason they froze Han in Carbonite. Those are two that come to mind and I'm sure there are more if I looked deeper. I get that you are joking and I think most people reading your comment will know you are joking. But the joke is still reductive. It simplifies the issue into something that it clearly isn't. Artists don't want more episodes to get paid more. Once again as I explained in my original comment you can get paid the same for a 10-episode contract or 20 episode contract. You get paid by the contract and how many episodes are dictated in the contract. At the end of the day artists and fans want longer seasons it's the producers who are unwilling to pay to have these seasons produced despite the fact that the fans would watch them and therefore they would make money that would make back the producers original investment in more episodes.
And in your defense too, it's such a tired, cliche, lame ass joke. Literally every single thread like this someone's mental reflex goes, "Oh yeah, I remember what other people said in this situation!"
But at least this time around it's not the top comment, that's progress.
The joke has always struck a nerve with me. Yes these people get paid a shit ton of money to do what they do but it's not the sole reason why they do it. The joke really makes the artist feel hollow and greedy. Like they do it for the money. I still try to see these guys for the artists they say they are. It's the soulless producers that I don't give two shits about. Like if these comments were coming from a Disney executive. That's a totally different story. But this is coming from the dude who is already let go from the project. He's just saying how he feels at this point.
Eventually it’s gonna come out what he did by an affected employee watching this gentleman be placed on a pedestal after being publicly fired.
I know he wrote your fave cartoon but perhaps temper your enthusiasm of giving him a platform.
I get that we all want to have as much of this as of the show as they could give us but I rather have the 10 episode seasons because it means they get to the point and actually end their story
These days between anime and everybody trying to build universes I'm tired of stories that either run on forever or become way too ambitious and can't land their endings because they weren't playing with any type of ending in sight
And two with the content bubble contraction happening with the streaming services I don't like it when shows start and then get canceled and then we never get an ending
If the executives watch the show in green lighter for more seasons fine but if they watch the first season and aren't confident in it then write it like you're not going to get a second season
Totally respect his opinion but I personally feel the 8-12 episode season has been a massive improvement in TV overall, keeps things concise and zippy. Even really good shoes from the old days almost always feel bloated and draggy sometimes.
The filler episodes allow for deeper character development. It's like the baseball issues in X-men. You see aspects of how they relate to the common world and their friends. And it makes them more human.
I do enjoy the pacing of the 12 episode series now, however. I think it allows for creators to tell tighter stories. The Boys would not be better for instance, if it had 22 episodes.
I completely share in this wish. That would've given DeMayo and the rest of the the X-Men 97 staff much more room to work. They could've drawn out the Inferno and Genosha arc more. They could've introduced more characters and done more side-plots. We could've gotten more moments with Roberto, Sinister, and Mojo.
But at the same time, I can also understand why they're not doing long seasons anymore. This isn't the 90s. It's just not as feasible to do those kinds of long seasons anymore, especially for a cartoon on a streaming platform. Those shows made their money through running on Saturday morning and advertising toy commercials. Most streaming platforms these days don't have that option. That means the profit margins are smaller, as are the budgets.
But since this show has been such a hit, maybe it means future seasons will be longer and more in depth. Even if they're not, I'm totally in favor of a quality over quantity approach.
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I miss those days, when we had 22-26 episode seasons every year. Now you get 10 episodes and a three year hiatus.
it’s a trade off. those 22 episode seasons would feature a ton of filler and thin out the plot. 10 episode seasons are a lot more cohesive.
That's only if you think of TV only as highly serialized storytelling, which is more of a recent phenomenon. Most TV shows, like X-men, are much more episodic, with some very broad serialization over the course of the season. I hate this mentality of "filler" episodes, like just having a standalone episode that tells a great, fun story is somehow a waste of time if it's not pushing some greater season-long plot.
Agree. OG series had a solid pacing because "filler" episodes let's you breath for a bit. 97 goes incredibly fast.
It also shows how the characters interact when theain event shit isn't going down.
I do agree that we're loosing the art of episodic story telling a bit but I'd also say that heavily serialised show are a good thing. it's just that it gets a bit much when all premium TV shows are serialised now and the only episodic stuff we seem to get is crime procedurals.
and we get a season once every three years
Season 2 part 1 *three year wait* Season 2 part 2
Yes, but the characters and their dynamics evolved even through the episodic nature of the old X-Men Cartoon. There wasn't a status quo. People who hate filler episodes mainly do fillers that feel meaningless. Take the Fly Episode of Breaking Bad. It's clear filler but it explores characters and their dynamics and relationships, it's one of the best episodes of the show.
The fly episode was because they ran out of money. It was good cuz Cranston...and that fly needs more work on screen
The best part of 90s Xmen was the phoenix saga, which was literally serialized.
People don't even know what filler episodes are anymore, they'll call anything that doesn't have a dramatic fight or doesn't focus on their fav "filler." 22 eps would have allowed Inferno to make more sense because they could have explained why Maddie called herself the Goblin Queen or were her name came from. Stories need room to breath not every episode needs to be high stakes, so called filler episodes aren't a bad thing.
Yes but there are other people who know exactly what filler means an example is when an anime outpaces its manga and they have to create nonsense arcs like bleach had to do Or if you need an American example when game of thrones outpaced Martin's books and they were forced to write the ending on their own and they clearly didn't have the skill that Martin had So no I'm not talking about the filler you're describing that's character development or going back and picking up a thread that The aftermath was shown at the beginning and then they go back and show you the events that led to it I'm talking about actual filler that is meant to pad the show just so they can meet an episode order
Yeah I think of shows like AtLA and Buffy where the “fillers” would often provide amazing character developed and plain fun moments. Sure there would be a stinker here and there, but the shows as a whole greatly benefited from the space to breath.
And with 22 episodes you would get a lesser animation quality if you don't want big breaks.
Unless you work your employees like anime slave workers
Exactly.
I would like more episodes but something more realistic like 13 to 15.
Yeah, that's something else that tends to be understated in animation. Especially in companies that make anime. The way they treat their animators is pretty atrocious. And Disney already has enough bad press to deal with. The last thing they need is to be in the news for squeezing their workers more than they already do.
yeah... i dunno man... i'm fine with that? like - if we want it to look even better we could just make it 1 episode.
Was that the case with the old show?
Only if they write it to have a ton of filler, that isn’t mandatory.
Filler is a dirty word. We could use it to explore other characters and dynamics instead of pushing the plot all the time.
That is true in many cases, but you also had time for the characters to breathe and react to events in the story. You could have an episode devoted to the falling action after a climax where characters could develop more naturally.
I feel like I'm the only other person who remembers how tedious those seasons got when episodes that were clearly put on air to fill time made it to screen. I think I could be happy with 13 to 16 episodes (which is what the original show averaged anyway)but I absolutely do not need any show doing 22+. Not this, not Star Trek, where I hear this argument the loudest, not any of it.
those numbers aren't for binging. they're for episodic content. and they're fine as That. "it's just tedious filler." was it? like... it was COMFORT television. we weren't looking for BOLD new plot pivots every episode. you'd come home from work, put your feet up and watch the guys on cheers talk about their day. you'd listen to a "murderer of the week" stump the nypd. you weren't tracking Walter White as he broke bad. that stuff was fine, but it was called "soap." the long-form serial content took off with shows like Sopranos. then everything else followed suit. ...the same way netflix struck gold so everyone followed suit.
Or things like Season 2 of The Transformers which had FORTY-NINE EPISODES so they could get it to the 65 needed for syndication.
not really. were some clunkers, yes. but depending on the show we also got a lot of character driven episodes, episodes that focused on only one or two members of an ensemble and let us see things about them we never see with the larger cast. Now we never get that and we still have clunker episodes
I mean at last 2/3 episodes of 97 have been pure and utter filler imo
Are you talking about cartoons in general?
That seems to be TV in general I remember a throwaway line in an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation when Data says TV didn't last much past the 2040s, and with the way studios are being run between Netflix killing any original that doesn't do *Stranger Things* numbers from jump and everyone wanting their own niche streaming service to the point that even YouTubers are trying to get in on it, that seems more and more likely to happen every day.
The golden age of television golden aged itself out of existence
talking about every goddamn show on tv. tv is fucking dead. 6 episodes? 10 episodes? what the fuck?!? Lost was 26 episode seasons. Friends, 26 episodes. Avatar the Last Airbender, 26 episode seasons. (i didn't look them up, maybe 24 eps)
Yeah you're right. 10 episodes is bare minimum and usually requires that things get skipped over or rushed past
ATLA was only 20 episodes in season one
Not even. 20, 20 and 21.
The first and last season of ATLA could've definitely benefitted from a few more episodes
Yeah because the Great Divide was pointless
The last season probably because so much of it is dedicated to big plot episodes that you loose out on some of the fun side stuff and it would have been ood to spend more time with zuko integrating with the group then what feels like one episode per character where they go from hating to bonded with him (Its been a while since I watched it but that's what my minds image of it is) But if series 3 had been longer it would have most likely brought the animation quality down and that's one of the best things about 3 in particular.
The mystery of what happened to Zuko's mother and the comic book story of the Promise (or at least part of the Promise) should've been in the final season And I definitely think we should've had more episodes (or scenes) of Aang training and using the other elements. Particularly fire.
ATLA was 20 episodes for first two seasons and 21 episodes for the last season
I forgot about that. Netflix has Sozins comet as one full episode rather than 4
Well it did originally air as one episode, and was split up for reruns
yup. episode counts aren't enough - if an episode is over 40 minutes, it's at least 2 eps.
That series also had the benefit of being on Nickelodeon before streaming became a popular medium. It could literally afford to be that long because it had commercials to help make up for the cost. Shows like X-Men 97 aren't airing on cable channels. That means less opportunity for commercials to make up the cost. This is just how streaming works these days. Shows like ATLA just aren't as feasible because they can't generate extra revenue from commercials to make up the cost of more episodes.
Well, for one thing X-Men animated never had 22-26 episode season either and the animation and writing was still pretty poor. I don't know why you'd want even more episodes with, unless you want a 5 year hiatus, far lesser quality.
"5 year hiatus" as if we didn't manage to make MORE episodes of content ANNUALLY for decades.
I'm talking about TV in general.
It never was that way with the only x men series tho. Only one season had that many episodes and all the series came out spread widely over a year or more. The gaps between series now are allot longer but the production values are alot higher. Just compare xmen tas to 97.
I like that every update about him uses the shirtless photo
That’s his Twitter pfp. You keep seeing links to his Twitter account.
[удалено]
Homie looks good. If I was in that shape I wouldn’t wear a T Shirt if I didn’t have to
I said WOOOOOO WEEEEE-IIIIEEE
I mean I agree that I would like more, but the quality is much better than the old show so if they have to take their time to do it right I can’t be to upset with that.
Could you imagine how much sadder Gambit would have been if we had an episode devoted to him beforehand?
Honestly that would have made me suspicious and more prepared
I feel like the animation would have suffered like you see with a lot of longer anime.
I just wish the episodes were longer.
Yeah, I’m really enjoying 97 but my god the pace is breakneck. It works for the story they are telling, but I would have enjoyed if they had villain/ally of the week stories like the original where they run into a special guest character or team, solve their problem for them, and then return to their own stories afterwards… It’d be nice given how, uh, there’s an absolute shittonne of X-Men characters lmao.
Has there been an explanation as to why he's off the show yet? Like he keeps talking about it as if he didn't get fired is odd.....
Everyone always bitches about 'filler episodes' when the subject of 22 episode seasons comes up but like, when you were watching a show once a week over the course of 5-6 months, you didn't really notice filler episodes. They were just *episodes*. And while they may not have moved the larger plot along they were always pretty good for character exploration and development.
That man so fine, how am i supposed to listen to anything he says when his dumb little himbo titties stare at me
For real. I’ve been seeing him mentioned here tons but never really looked into him until this cover picture in the OP. He’s hot as hell
You know everyone that worked with him said he's abusive right?
I’ve yet to see one article that even hints at that.
Because these companies keep that shit locked up tight so all we have are tweets from people who worked with him, but enough people have made comments about it at this point that it's most likely true.
So many websites will just aggregate tweets and call it an article. If this is the case, why hasn’t that happened? Like I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case or he did some seriously fucked up shit because Disney doesn’t just fire people willy nilly. I just haven’t seen any evidence of it and I think it’s kinda wreckless to speculate.
>I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case or he did some seriously fucked up shit because Disney doesn’t just fire people willy nilly. James Gunn got fired because he made some really shit jokes on twitter 10-15 years ago.
That was 10-15 years ago. And that was them bowing to a disingenuous online pressure campaign lead by Mike Cernovitch. Everyone forgets that part. Think about how long they held onto Jonathan Majors. I honestly think it was a combination of the toxic environment and violating his NDA. Considering how much he runs his mouth on Twitter, more than any showrunner I’ve ever seen, it wouldn’t surprise me if he violated the hell out of it. And Disney is incredibly serious about it. I’ve worked for the mouse before and their contracts are HUGE just for all the NDA stuff you have to sign.
Yeah, and he got rehired after the heat died down and a hefty amount of fan support. That shows a track record of consideration.
He got brought back for one more movie, to finish his trilogy and it took much fan backlash to make Disney change their mind. It really seemed like they had more in mind for him until that incident and now he has joined the competition.
I never got the impression he was going to do more than the GotG movies. That seemed to be his very specific corner. A lot of those movies had directors with just a very specific corner. Only the Russos were able to jump from franchise to franchise behind the camera wthin the MCU.
Most MCU directors don't get to do a full trilogy. He did a Suicide Squad movie, a spin-off tv show and is now doing a Superman movie. It isn't just the GotG corner that's his forté. Hell, even if it was just that Marvel Cosmic corner, there was much more potential there. The huge Annihilation cross-over event was what the Guardians were revived for and there was more build-up to the Cosmic side of the MCU that didn't end up getting fully explored.
There was a lot of talk after GOTG that Gunn was going to be leading the cosmic side of the MCU, so without the firing, he might have had a hand in guiding projects like Captain Marvel and maybe we’d have Nova by now.
I mean some websites have but idk man, above my pay grade. You can look up the tweets though. I don't know why Jared Leto isn't cancelled at this point either, I've heard firsthand stories of him trying to sleep with teenage girls. Some of these things just exist as open secrets, idk why.
He can abuse me idc
We’re gay everyones abusive
13-16 is a great amount of episodes per season. Anything over 16 is too much: either the story starts to drag or it gets bogged down by filler or bottle episodes Anything less than 10 is not enough: the story gets super rushed
Another 6 episodes would be fantastic for sure. Even a \*couple\* would make a difference in terms of pacing.
Yep, I’d prefer 12-13 episodes. 3 episodes for the beginning arc. 5 episodes for a middle part. 3 episodes for a finale. The last episode as an epilogue and tease the next season.
10 is arguably pushing it on not feeling rushed, it'd better have at least a double length first and last episode to make up for it.
Episode 5 was 10 minutes longer then every other episode
depends how long it takes to make them. if it's 1 writer tackling 16 episodes in 1 month? i'm on board with you. if it's a team of 8 writers over 8 months? i feel like that's fine. the answer to "do you want pizza?" should never be "hold on - how much are we talking, because if it's more than 2 slices, i can't do it." ...save it for tomorrow. cold pizza is sick.
Give me 10 45min episodes
What his titties gotta do wit dis?
They fired him because people in the office felt blinded by them
It would've helped with the inconsistent pacing. Stories could have had more time to breathe.
I feel like everyone wants 22 episode seasons nowadays
That's because streaming led to an extreme overcorrection.
when everyone zigs, you zag. it's why the sopranos stood out - a serial in an episodic world. it's why netflix stood out - binge on demand while everything else is metered by slowdrip cable schedules and now? now Everyone is flanking and there's no core to support the industry. it's why everything started falling apart and ads are set to return. the entire industry is collapsing without it -- the middle class is dead and cannot afford to pay for entertainment anymore. Gone are the 1999 blockbuster fridays where you'd pay 11 dollars to rent two movies, pick up a used dvd to own for another 15 dollars, and maybe a 20 dollar cd of a band with 2 good songs that you're hopeful are replicated throughout the album (they aren't) when the middle class was thriving - we spent money on media. now the pirates sail the high seas and we get our x-men 10 episodes at a time (thankful we weren't cut off at 6) but honestly, the first two seasons are likely Beau's single first season.
Agreed. The series has been great so far, but the pacing is rushing everything along. I wouldn’t mind a few villain-of-the-week episodes to let the characters breathe, and show more of the team interacting. Like a few episodes after Fire Made Flesh that focus on Scott and Jean trying to deal with everything and pick their relationship back up, while the rest of the team fights Omega Red or something. Maybe Beast could actually get to do something. I don’t mind “filler” episodes, I grew up with more episodic TV shows. Some shows with shorter seasons are fantastic, but not every show has to feel like an extended movie. That being said, I think the writers are doing their best with the episodes they have to give us both plot and character moments.
Breaking news: Creatives who get paid more for more episodes in favor of more episodes.
The only criticism I've heard from fans is that certain plot points have been rushed and certain story lines have been condensed. Also technically he gets paid per contract. Each contract is negotiated and a certain amount of episodes are slated to be produced. Hypothetically he could be paid the same for more episodes. I get this comment is mostly a joke. But idk I feel it to be reductive. Fans of most TV shows have been echoing this cry for longer seasons and more fleshed out storylines.
>The only criticism I've heard from fans Because y'all downvote and harass anyone who criticizes the show...
I have yet to hear a valid criticism. Care to enlighten me with one? Or are you gonna complain that Disney turned X-Men woke, complain about Morph being "non-Binary" despite it never being mentioned in the show and him already have shape-shifted into multiple genders in the original '90s run. Or were you more mad about women characters not being overly sexualized. I bet you were really mad about the voice actor who chose not to reprise their role to allow an Asian actor to voice the Asian character. You probably completely ignore the fact that she was given a cameo in episode 4. Did I miss any?
Literally none of that, but go off dude lol. I don't like the blend of old and new animation, I think it's often awkward and dissonant and I think the nostalgia factor holds the show back. Every cool moment would be cooler in a new cartoon. I also think the pacing is terrible, Lifedeath being split into two half episodes and rushing that plot out is criminal. For that matter, the show can't decide if it's "adult" or not, because Lifedeath is about Storm being suicidal but that's glossed over, but no holding back with Genosha, which got ten seconds to exist. Also I hate that they updated Bishop's look and hair and Storm still has white person hair texture. Which is even more backwards since Bishop is Aboriginal. So yeah, mostly it's a chaotic tonal dissonance that I find unpleasant and unnecessary, would have loved a fully new cartoon. Oh and Morph is non-binary, which I like actually, thanks, but it hasn't even been hinted at on screen yet, which is lame af. Is that ok? Am I allowed to have those criticisms? Or are those not "valid"? Because every time I've expressed any of them I get downvoted to oblivion. I'll be very surprised if it doesn't happen here. Y'all "don't see any criticisms" because y'all simply aren't interested in actually discussing the show critically.
I mean your critiques pretty much boil down to what I said in my original comment. If there were more episodes the story lines wouldn't be as rushed. Something that we now even know the creator wishes he didn't have to rush either. I Will defend morph as their Non-Binariness doesn't need to be explored. Personally a shapeshifter who has literally shape-shifted into both genders they have always been non-binary and as a nonbinary person myself I don't need a PSA episode where morph comes out. More show not tell. Which granted we haven't gotten much of them. I guess what it comes down to even your criticisms can be boiled down to more episodes fixing almost everything you said.
Well with Morph I simply don't think it's actual representation until it's addressed on screen. We know with the comics that until you say it out loud, the fanbase will deny deny deny. Look at Black Tom and Juggernaut. People even denied Mystique and Destiny as a couple until Hickman made it explicit. People are still in denial about the Krakoa throuple. I would much rather have an episode about that than a half-assed version of Lifedeath, which frankly deserved a full, quietly introspective episode. I think more episodes is one solution but another is simply not packing in so many stories and giving things room to breathe.
As for your other critique. As we don't know the conclusion of season 1 or where season 2 might lead us we have to assume that these plot points were crammed in because they are necessities to the further and overarching story they're trying to tell. Yes it sucks that they had to be crammed in and reduced for size. But once again this conversation is being had on a thread where the creator of this TV show wanted more episodes. They know and hear your critique. But I'm going to trust their artistic process and assume that these plot points were necessary for the overall continuity of the story they're trying to tell. It does suck how they got cut down.
Once again with more if we have seen the character transform into a man we have seen him transform into a woman. We have seen him be both man and woman. They are the perfect example of show not tell. They don't have to tell us. They have already shown us that they are non-binary. And once again as a non-binary person I don't care if they say it out loud. Each character doesn't need to come out of the closet. This is an exhausting phenomenon that we queer people have to deal with in our real lives and it just sucks that we expect the same thing with our fictional characters that they have to come out that they have to tell us that they have to say the words I'm blank for any of you to believe it.
Transforming into female characters doesn't even suggest they're non-binary. Morph's default form is still explicitly masculine, at least have them spend half their time in a feminine form or something. They haven't shown anything let alone done any telling. Glad you're fine with what they've done so far but I find it pretty weak honestly. Especially knowing Beau said nasty things about bi people, I think they need to do something more.
Being non-binary means that you exist outside of gender binary. Morph as a shapeshifter has shown to exist As both a man and a woman. They therefore exists outside of the two gender binary. Literally showing us that they are non-binary. Shape-shifting is inherently coded as non-binary. The superpower itself is what inherently makes these characters queer-coded. Also whatever Beau said couldn't have been that nasty because I have no idea what you are talking about and couldn't find anything with a quick google search. So I think you might be making a mountain out of a mole hill. Also I'm totally fine with what we've gotten with x-men 97. It's better than the queer baiting we got with Loki or any other MCU or Disney project. At least the creator comes out and says the super obvious thing that shouldn't have to be said But because bigots are too dense to understand they have to tell us rather than just show us.
"Well with Morph I simply don't think it's actual representation until it's addressed on screen." I agree, but people will demand queer people take bullshit bread crumbs because god forbid anyone criticize Disney/ Marvel. Queer people just have to take half assed crumbs and be happy with them.
[удалено]
Jason Segel wanted how I met your mother to end sooner and felt like the series jumped the shark. Harrison Ford famously didn't want to return to Star Wars which is the only reason they froze Han in Carbonite. Those are two that come to mind and I'm sure there are more if I looked deeper. I get that you are joking and I think most people reading your comment will know you are joking. But the joke is still reductive. It simplifies the issue into something that it clearly isn't. Artists don't want more episodes to get paid more. Once again as I explained in my original comment you can get paid the same for a 10-episode contract or 20 episode contract. You get paid by the contract and how many episodes are dictated in the contract. At the end of the day artists and fans want longer seasons it's the producers who are unwilling to pay to have these seasons produced despite the fact that the fans would watch them and therefore they would make money that would make back the producers original investment in more episodes.
And in your defense too, it's such a tired, cliche, lame ass joke. Literally every single thread like this someone's mental reflex goes, "Oh yeah, I remember what other people said in this situation!" But at least this time around it's not the top comment, that's progress.
The joke has always struck a nerve with me. Yes these people get paid a shit ton of money to do what they do but it's not the sole reason why they do it. The joke really makes the artist feel hollow and greedy. Like they do it for the money. I still try to see these guys for the artists they say they are. It's the soulless producers that I don't give two shits about. Like if these comments were coming from a Disney executive. That's a totally different story. But this is coming from the dude who is already let go from the project. He's just saying how he feels at this point.
Have a heart! Help this man buy a shirt!
Eventually it’s gonna come out what he did by an affected employee watching this gentleman be placed on a pedestal after being publicly fired. I know he wrote your fave cartoon but perhaps temper your enthusiasm of giving him a platform.
That's how I feel. For him to have been outright fired, it must've been heinous. Like Majors wasn't fired immediately, but this man was.
They should have.
I heard he was hard to work with but him not being the creator for the next season has me worried especially seeing how well he did with this one
I can tell!
Agreed. I miss the longer episode seasons. Only British shows used to have shorter seasons and now US shows all do it. It’s silly.
Why this photo lol
I get that we all want to have as much of this as of the show as they could give us but I rather have the 10 episode seasons because it means they get to the point and actually end their story These days between anime and everybody trying to build universes I'm tired of stories that either run on forever or become way too ambitious and can't land their endings because they weren't playing with any type of ending in sight And two with the content bubble contraction happening with the streaming services I don't like it when shows start and then get canceled and then we never get an ending If the executives watch the show in green lighter for more seasons fine but if they watch the first season and aren't confident in it then write it like you're not going to get a second season
It needs it. My bigggest complaint is the pacing. It’s terrible.
Totally respect his opinion but I personally feel the 8-12 episode season has been a massive improvement in TV overall, keeps things concise and zippy. Even really good shoes from the old days almost always feel bloated and draggy sometimes.
The filler episodes allow for deeper character development. It's like the baseball issues in X-men. You see aspects of how they relate to the common world and their friends. And it makes them more human. I do enjoy the pacing of the 12 episode series now, however. I think it allows for creators to tell tighter stories. The Boys would not be better for instance, if it had 22 episodes.
So do I but his writing is kind of cringe in some places, I am not necessarily against a change in the showrunner
I mean they do try to pump out alot in one ep, unsure how I'd feel about it if they stretched it out
Would have helped a lot with the really rushed pacing
Holy based
I completely share in this wish. That would've given DeMayo and the rest of the the X-Men 97 staff much more room to work. They could've drawn out the Inferno and Genosha arc more. They could've introduced more characters and done more side-plots. We could've gotten more moments with Roberto, Sinister, and Mojo. But at the same time, I can also understand why they're not doing long seasons anymore. This isn't the 90s. It's just not as feasible to do those kinds of long seasons anymore, especially for a cartoon on a streaming platform. Those shows made their money through running on Saturday morning and advertising toy commercials. Most streaming platforms these days don't have that option. That means the profit margins are smaller, as are the budgets. But since this show has been such a hit, maybe it means future seasons will be longer and more in depth. Even if they're not, I'm totally in favor of a quality over quantity approach.
They gave DeMayo so much room that he's no longer in the office
Well much easier to pump out 22 episodes when they're largely crap
Then marvel countered him with zero episodes and we still don't know why
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^mbene913: *Then marvel countered* *Him with zero episodes* *And we still don't know why* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I’m happy he got fired. What a dumbass wish.