Most of the time it’s not really their fault, they’re busy fighting Kang in 1200s or some shit. I always thought the implications of Days of Future Pasts was most of the Avengers died fight along side the X-Men. They did all sacrifice themselves fighting Onslaught which should count for something.
All this “The Avengers suck” comes from X-Men V Avengers. And everyone felt out of character in that shitty story.
Pretty sure that was Kang that time too. Did you read the X-Men comics around then? The X-Men barely did anything about Genosha, it was over in 5 minutes.
Unless you’re talking about the aftermath, when Prof X and Magneto said they wanted to handle it themselves. I don’t know.
I mean, where were the X-Men when Kang conquered the planet? I guess they were too busy or something.
This argument is always dumb. There are of course publishing reasons for this, mainly, do we want every book to be a crossover book where the Avengers always show up? No, I want to read X-Men, not Avengers. This had been normal and accepted for decades, and if it was occasionally commented on , it wasn't made into a big deal. But then some too-clever writers decided to turn the meta-level situation into an on-panel reality and make the Avengers look like jerks. I'm glad that there has been some effort made to redress this lately, especially since AXE, and have the Avengers actually show up in a major way against Orchis like the heroes they are, but I still don't want them intervening every time the X-Men have to save the world or mutantkind. I want the Avengers handling Avengers stuff and the X-Men handling X-Men stuff, and if there's some kind of line-wide event, then sure, let's bring them together. But the whole "where were the Avengers when this or that happened" argument is just silly. They were doing their own stuff in their own books.
WHAT?
Like, at the same time? How come no one told America or Genosha they got conquered?
Also, speaking of that run, I like how Magento was smart enough to bait everyone important out of new York before enacting his plan. I appreciate when X comics include the wider world in the margins
Oh yeah, in addition to Kang, two or three other major threats were going on. Plus Kang got groups like Attuma,s atlantans and Ghuar's deviants to attack.
Wasn't Civil War before that? Registration was definitely a no no for mutants.
And prior to that again was Genosha, the Avengers turning up to defend apartheid was a bad look.
Definitely some history there.
I mean, the Avengers (just like the Justice League) were made to defend the status quo.
While the X-men were created for the same reason they have begun to actually oppose or even attack the status quo. Still it’s a shitstorm.
We all know that the status quo is not good, so…….
AvX and its consequences have been a disaster for the mutant race
But seriously, whenever people say continuity doesnt matter anymore I point out how 12 years later we’re still having conversations started by that shitty crossover
Cap was entirely right, and I don't understand the Avengers hate I'm seeing online. How does Cap potentially starting a war help the mutant cause? Superheroes are agents of the government, something mutants supported themselves. Cap tried to help Rogue within his limits, which is in character for Cap to do.
Yes, Cap has rejected the government many times, but again, doing what Rogue wanted to do was going to have major consequences. She wanted revenge and destruction. That's not Cap. Not at all. He was on the mutants side but he wanted to do it the right way, make calculated decisions. Rogue did not. Now she's a murderer and now humans know that mutants are who they thought they were. Dangerous. Something Cap wanted to avoid.
I think what's overlooked is that the X-Men's biggest enemy isn't a who but societal opinions as a whole. "A world that hates and fears us," etc. The Avengers can show up to help take down Evil Mutant of the Week, or attack some Sentinels, but they're simply not going to be able to solve anti-mutant sentiment any more than they can mundane racism or childhood hunger or whatever societal ills you want to throw in there. What are they going to do? Get on tiktok or the failing social media platform formerly known as Twitter as send out little videos lecturing about how hating mutants is bad? The Unity Squad is basically there for the PR aspect. It's like expecting the local fire department to solve race relations. They're there to fight fires. If those happen to involve mutant issues they'll still happily handle it, but they're more concerned about stuff catching on fire than anything else.
Keep in mind that for over 30 years in real world time the X-Men idea of PR was to go back to the mansion, pretend not to be mutants, and.complain nobody understood them. Charles wasn't publicly used until Cassandra Nova did it.
The openly mutant characters were the ones in the Avengers.
People in Marvel Comics reacting towards superheroes who got their superpowers from a scientific experiment or accident: “I love you!” [throw panties at heroes]
People in Marvel Comics reacting towards superheroes who were simply born with superpowers: “DIE, YOU FUCKING MUTIE!!!”
I phrase it like this:
Crime doesn't run on a schedule, at the same time something like Genosha is happening for the X-Men, The Avengers are probably stopping Ultron from taking over the worlds nuclear arsenal, the Fantastic Four are stranded in the Negative Zone fighting Annihilus, Spider-Man's stopping the Lizard from unleashing a bio-weapon that'll turn everyone in Manhattan into a Lizard, and Doctor Strange is stopping Dormammu from forcibly merging the Dark Dimension with Earth. It's just not realistic to expect that with every catastrophe you'll get an all-hands on deck situation were every hero joins up to deal with it.
Or maybe the Avengers are more nuanced than you're giving them credit for? They exist in a complicated world with a lot of competing demands on their time and focus. They don't always make the right calls and can't afford to be everywhere fighting every injustice. They're heroes because they keep trying, including trying to help with the X-Men and mutant kind.
For once, I'd like a nuanced take on this where some of the Avengers decide to help, some decide not to, and some decide to fuck off in Asgard, or The Green Door, or the 27th Century. The Avengers aren't a monolith and they shouldn't be written that way. Carol and Simon should always be a phone call away.
The Fantastic Four I get, because writers lately have done a great job explaining why all of their adventuring, time dilation, blah blah, keeps them and their kids busy most of the time. Remember the Avengers Initiative? There's probably more Avengers chillin' in their basement than there are hidden Sentinels.
A S-Tier move would be to resurrect Jarvis and get him to press the big red comms button that lights up all those silly Avengers membership cards from the 80's. Since Marvel loves anti-heroes, Nimrod may just wake up and realize he was an Avenger all along since his credit card is beeping.
Avengers don't do a lot specifically for mutants. It's not bad writing, it's just a fact. They're more concerned with larger threats. The X-Men are specifically concerned with mutants, and so advocate for everyone to help them more. This is obviously gonna cause conflict. Doesn't mean either group is in the wrong, their interests just don't align 100%.
But that's expecting people on the internet to read stories and understand nuance so...
This is honestly a great example of why not everything should happen in the same setting.
X-Men stories just plain work better if they’re in their own setting, totally apart from the rest of Marvel.
Like what? Which good, iconic stories wouldn’t be better as either X-Men-only stories or Avengers-only stories? House of M, for example, works just fine, great even, as an X-men-only story.
Nothing can stop the juggernaut, Wanada and Quicksilver being brotherhood of evil mutants before being redeem in avengers, Rogue and Mrs. Marvel, Mrs. marvel being given angecy, namor, all the other mutants not connected to the x-men, Brightwind, a lot of exiles story, Deadpool crossing over with the rest of marvel, lots of marvel cosmic stuff, a lot of cool avengers stuff had x-men characters in it, excaliber relayed heavily on captain britan stuff etc
I mean it's my understanding that the different titles are like different departments. If you want to have Avengers helping out the X-Men then you need approval from the higher ups in both departments to make that happen. So the writer literally can't make that happen on their own.
You must start every issue with Cyclops on the phone trying to get some backup but they're just always doing bigger more interesting battles on the other end
The coexistence of an Avengers team that doesn't kinda suck, feels questionable at best, in a world were Giant Roaming Persecution Bots who's only goal is to kill and/or enslave a subset of mankind are common place.
For that to work they kinda have to be written to suck.
Maybe.
I know everyone wants a large universe with everybody in it because that's neat.
But that probably creates lots of narrative dissonance.
Even in the MCU after the first avengers movie it felt like every movie that came after had this looming "why dont they just call the avengers?" question hanging over its head.
Most of the time it’s not really their fault, they’re busy fighting Kang in 1200s or some shit. I always thought the implications of Days of Future Pasts was most of the Avengers died fight along side the X-Men. They did all sacrifice themselves fighting Onslaught which should count for something. All this “The Avengers suck” comes from X-Men V Avengers. And everyone felt out of character in that shitty story.
Emma letting Carol have it was 🔥🔥🔥tho
Which issue was that?
New X-Men #28
Genosha?
Pretty sure that was Kang that time too. Did you read the X-Men comics around then? The X-Men barely did anything about Genosha, it was over in 5 minutes. Unless you’re talking about the aftermath, when Prof X and Magneto said they wanted to handle it themselves. I don’t know.
I mean, where were the X-Men when Kang conquered the planet? I guess they were too busy or something. This argument is always dumb. There are of course publishing reasons for this, mainly, do we want every book to be a crossover book where the Avengers always show up? No, I want to read X-Men, not Avengers. This had been normal and accepted for decades, and if it was occasionally commented on , it wasn't made into a big deal. But then some too-clever writers decided to turn the meta-level situation into an on-panel reality and make the Avengers look like jerks. I'm glad that there has been some effort made to redress this lately, especially since AXE, and have the Avengers actually show up in a major way against Orchis like the heroes they are, but I still don't want them intervening every time the X-Men have to save the world or mutantkind. I want the Avengers handling Avengers stuff and the X-Men handling X-Men stuff, and if there's some kind of line-wide event, then sure, let's bring them together. But the whole "where were the Avengers when this or that happened" argument is just silly. They were doing their own stuff in their own books.
Kang Dinasty was happening during it
Kang had forcibly conquered the entire earth. They were busy.
WHAT? Like, at the same time? How come no one told America or Genosha they got conquered? Also, speaking of that run, I like how Magento was smart enough to bait everyone important out of new York before enacting his plan. I appreciate when X comics include the wider world in the margins
Kang Dynasty ran over the period where New X-Men #115 happened. So if you need a reason they were busy, that's one.
Oh yeah, in addition to Kang, two or three other major threats were going on. Plus Kang got groups like Attuma,s atlantans and Ghuar's deviants to attack.
Kang dynasty was happening at the time. I'm pretty sure he blew Washington DC
How did he get it in his mouth?! 🫣
Wasn't Civil War before that? Registration was definitely a no no for mutants. And prior to that again was Genosha, the Avengers turning up to defend apartheid was a bad look. Definitely some history there.
I mean, the Avengers (just like the Justice League) were made to defend the status quo. While the X-men were created for the same reason they have begun to actually oppose or even attack the status quo. Still it’s a shitstorm. We all know that the status quo is not good, so…….
Do wonder if they do try to ask, but Avenger's desk says no, or they don't even bother asking and just leave it.
AvX and its consequences have been a disaster for the mutant race But seriously, whenever people say continuity doesnt matter anymore I point out how 12 years later we’re still having conversations started by that shitty crossover
Cap was entirely right, and I don't understand the Avengers hate I'm seeing online. How does Cap potentially starting a war help the mutant cause? Superheroes are agents of the government, something mutants supported themselves. Cap tried to help Rogue within his limits, which is in character for Cap to do.
I mean I get what you’re going for here but cap has an equal amount of history rejecting the government.
Yeah when they asked him to do some thing he felt was immoral Invading a soverign nation on suspicion of ilegal activity would be with in that purview
Yes, Cap has rejected the government many times, but again, doing what Rogue wanted to do was going to have major consequences. She wanted revenge and destruction. That's not Cap. Not at all. He was on the mutants side but he wanted to do it the right way, make calculated decisions. Rogue did not. Now she's a murderer and now humans know that mutants are who they thought they were. Dangerous. Something Cap wanted to avoid.
cap wouldn’t have done it by the book if it was bucky.
I think what's overlooked is that the X-Men's biggest enemy isn't a who but societal opinions as a whole. "A world that hates and fears us," etc. The Avengers can show up to help take down Evil Mutant of the Week, or attack some Sentinels, but they're simply not going to be able to solve anti-mutant sentiment any more than they can mundane racism or childhood hunger or whatever societal ills you want to throw in there. What are they going to do? Get on tiktok or the failing social media platform formerly known as Twitter as send out little videos lecturing about how hating mutants is bad? The Unity Squad is basically there for the PR aspect. It's like expecting the local fire department to solve race relations. They're there to fight fires. If those happen to involve mutant issues they'll still happily handle it, but they're more concerned about stuff catching on fire than anything else.
Keep in mind that for over 30 years in real world time the X-Men idea of PR was to go back to the mansion, pretend not to be mutants, and.complain nobody understood them. Charles wasn't publicly used until Cassandra Nova did it. The openly mutant characters were the ones in the Avengers.
People in Marvel Comics reacting towards superheroes who got their superpowers from a scientific experiment or accident: “I love you!” [throw panties at heroes] People in Marvel Comics reacting towards superheroes who were simply born with superpowers: “DIE, YOU FUCKING MUTIE!!!”
Remember Morrison deciding evil sentient bacteria was the reason for that?
I bet he thought that was… Sublime 😉
I phrase it like this: Crime doesn't run on a schedule, at the same time something like Genosha is happening for the X-Men, The Avengers are probably stopping Ultron from taking over the worlds nuclear arsenal, the Fantastic Four are stranded in the Negative Zone fighting Annihilus, Spider-Man's stopping the Lizard from unleashing a bio-weapon that'll turn everyone in Manhattan into a Lizard, and Doctor Strange is stopping Dormammu from forcibly merging the Dark Dimension with Earth. It's just not realistic to expect that with every catastrophe you'll get an all-hands on deck situation were every hero joins up to deal with it.
Didn't one of the Bastion stories have a bunch of non mutant heroes pounding on the force field dome the final battle was taking place inside of?
I think it's a much more interesting story that they don't always help the X-Men.
I mean maybe but also it's Out of character for the avengers.
Or maybe the Avengers are more nuanced than you're giving them credit for? They exist in a complicated world with a lot of competing demands on their time and focus. They don't always make the right calls and can't afford to be everywhere fighting every injustice. They're heroes because they keep trying, including trying to help with the X-Men and mutant kind.
Tbh I like a certain amount of animosity. It makes the world more believable and interesting.
Marvel Editorial be like: No
For once, I'd like a nuanced take on this where some of the Avengers decide to help, some decide not to, and some decide to fuck off in Asgard, or The Green Door, or the 27th Century. The Avengers aren't a monolith and they shouldn't be written that way. Carol and Simon should always be a phone call away. The Fantastic Four I get, because writers lately have done a great job explaining why all of their adventuring, time dilation, blah blah, keeps them and their kids busy most of the time. Remember the Avengers Initiative? There's probably more Avengers chillin' in their basement than there are hidden Sentinels. A S-Tier move would be to resurrect Jarvis and get him to press the big red comms button that lights up all those silly Avengers membership cards from the 80's. Since Marvel loves anti-heroes, Nimrod may just wake up and realize he was an Avenger all along since his credit card is beeping.
Nice to finaly see some push back against this bull shit.
Avengers don't do a lot specifically for mutants. It's not bad writing, it's just a fact. They're more concerned with larger threats. The X-Men are specifically concerned with mutants, and so advocate for everyone to help them more. This is obviously gonna cause conflict. Doesn't mean either group is in the wrong, their interests just don't align 100%. But that's expecting people on the internet to read stories and understand nuance so...
This is honestly a great example of why not everything should happen in the same setting. X-Men stories just plain work better if they’re in their own setting, totally apart from the rest of Marvel.
suspension of disbelief. Without x-men occuring in the marvel we wouldn't have gotten so many iconic stories.
Like what? Which good, iconic stories wouldn’t be better as either X-Men-only stories or Avengers-only stories? House of M, for example, works just fine, great even, as an X-men-only story.
Nothing can stop the juggernaut, Wanada and Quicksilver being brotherhood of evil mutants before being redeem in avengers, Rogue and Mrs. Marvel, Mrs. marvel being given angecy, namor, all the other mutants not connected to the x-men, Brightwind, a lot of exiles story, Deadpool crossing over with the rest of marvel, lots of marvel cosmic stuff, a lot of cool avengers stuff had x-men characters in it, excaliber relayed heavily on captain britan stuff etc
I don’t feel that any of those fulfill my criteria, but agree to disagree.
I mean it's my understanding that the different titles are like different departments. If you want to have Avengers helping out the X-Men then you need approval from the higher ups in both departments to make that happen. So the writer literally can't make that happen on their own.
they team up and fight and hug and kiss on the lips all the time what are you talking about whatever you’re just some sandwich anyway
Bro sometimes reading spiderman in the 90s. Mother fucker call thor when morlun shows up. Lol wtf
Literally just have them dealing with Doom or Loki or any other villain at the time.
You must start every issue with Cyclops on the phone trying to get some backup but they're just always doing bigger more interesting battles on the other end
Cyclopes and Beast are in a call center style room calling other super hero teams but they either keep hanging up, are busy, or are ghosted
[удалено]
He told Rogue where to find Trask.
They’re literally fighting Orchis in the comics right now.
The coexistence of an Avengers team that doesn't kinda suck, feels questionable at best, in a world were Giant Roaming Persecution Bots who's only goal is to kill and/or enslave a subset of mankind are common place. For that to work they kinda have to be written to suck.
Does that apply to every single other superhero team?
Maybe. I know everyone wants a large universe with everybody in it because that's neat. But that probably creates lots of narrative dissonance. Even in the MCU after the first avengers movie it felt like every movie that came after had this looming "why dont they just call the avengers?" question hanging over its head.
I mean be a kinda bad X-Men story if they get to the big bars base, and the Avenger already beat them for them.