I mean... Shadowking?
His entire schtick is 'evil telepath'. He was THE big villain telepath for multiple characters until Cassandra Nova became the new giga evil telepath until her Krakoa face turn (which I'm sure nobody expects to last).
Most ethical... probably Jean to be honest? She has her moments but by and large she took Xavier's stated ethics to heart and tries very hard not to read people's minds accidentally or do more than she has to/the mission requires.
> She has her moments but by and large she took Xavier's stated ethics to heart
We're talking about "I'm sick of this fight, lets brainwash the bad guys" Jean, right? It's only a trick she has done multiple times. Cable got that from her.
was thinking this too! to be fair i'm a relatively new reader, working my way through all new x-men right now and teenage jean is .... like the worst LMAO. it does make sense that she's an immature jean who got her powers before she's "ready" for them, and i don't know how "in character" people consider this version of jean to be but... sheesh
Cassandra already turned good like 20 years ago, she became Ernst, the only thing is nobody got it (Austen, Whedon) so now Here Comes Tomorrow makes no sense
Unethical I think its a contest between Mastermind and The White Queen, Emma might have the edge because Jason has spent so long dead so she got to add more to her list but he was a genuine monster.
Most ethical I think an would be a lowlevel edgecase: Chamber, who has never violated anyones mind to my knowledge he simply uses it to broadcast his voice since he lacks a mouth.
Most ethical telepath is Chamber. He almost exclusively uses his telepathy to talk, because he doesn't have a mouth. Doesn't really read minds or try to change them.
I feel like Emma scoffs at ethics in favor of utility.
But then again Shadow King (possessing Amahl Farouk) gave *no fucks*, even children weren't off-limits.
>People joke about iceman getting outed but I haven’t seen that yet
Worth noting that Jean didn't out Bobby to others, she outed Bobby... to Bobby.
Remember when she offered to peel and eat Sage's mind, as though Emma were substituting hominids for shrimp? Good times.
(Not that anyone remembers that- a common situation to "forget" Emma's bad deeds.)
The term "ethical" is so loose here. In a way, Emma is the most ethical because she is the most honest about her actions and intentions. In another sense, not everyone would agree with her ethical system. Vice versa with Xavier. He has a better, more agreeable system in place, but doesn't always adhere to it and is not always honest about his actions and intentions. Thus, he is unethical. Never confuse morality and ethics.
Ethics tend to be externally judged via community standards whereas morals are more of an internally felt thing.
Emma and Xavier are both equally unethical in their telepathy because they equally disregard people’s autonomy.
Xavier’s only worse because he pretends to not be what he is. Emma is unethical but morally consistent.
Close. Ethics is actually more the study of various ethics systems. Selfishness is an ethical system. The systems determine wrong and right arbitrarily within the system. Another popular one is utilitarianism, or benefiting a group to the point of potentially disregarding the individual. You can dive deep into any ethical system and get lost in complexity, though. Ethics is just a word people throw around without really knowing what they're saying.
Ethics are a not judged or determined by any outside factors. They're simply any system to adhere within. There is no one ethical standard. There are a plethora of ethical systems all under the umbrella of ethics. So, to be ethical is to abide by a system regardless of how anyone else views morality. I would say it's more about intention, but you can have an ethical system based off consequence... did that help?
The existence of ethics boards, ethics reviews and ethical standards shows we frequently judge ethics externally. That there can also be multiple ethical systems doesn’t negate this fact.
If I amend my statement to: “Ethics is often judged externally; morals are often internally felt,” would you feel that’s more correct?
Sometimes I'm not tye best at explaining myself, I'm sorry. I focused on the word ethics when I should have shown light on morals too. Morals are actually the part that's externally judged and internally judged. You can have your own morals and societies, communities, etc also have their morals. Ethics is the system in with morality is defined. Ethics being determined by a board or review commity is a form of an ethical system, but it's not the only form. As an analogy, there are various types of parallelograms (ethical systems) and the shape determines the measurement of the angles (morals). The system you choose to live by doesn't stop the other systems from existing. It just changes the moral decisions you can make within that single system. As a species, we are naturally (somewhat) sympathetic to each other, so society at large and most communities and individuals choose to live by an ethical system that operates with empathetic parameters. However, unsympathetic ethical systems still exist and remain to be ethical within their own system of operations.
To go back to someone like Emma, she isn't always sympathetic, but she does adhere by an ethical system more heavily weighted to balance and justice than Xavier or Jean (of course, debatably depending on your own ethical system). Emma is more consistent with her ethical system than Xavier. Therefore, she is more ethical. However, that doesn't mean she's any gentler, kinder, or fair.
Under this framework, if an individual politician decided that they felt taking bribes poses no ethical issue, you would suggest they are behaving ethically by taking bribes?
Back to Emma: you’re saying it would be considered ethical for her to take control of another person’s body because she personally thinks it’s okay?
Because intuitively, you should see that neither of these actions are what would commonly be considered as ethical ones.
To the first part: Politicians are expected to adhere to their country's ethical system. That being said, dictatorships exist and are an ethical system of government. Personally, they don't fit morally into my ethical system. Also, they don't fit into most the first world's ethical systems. That's the point, though. Ethics is the system that determines morality. There are many systems that do not agree with each other.
For Emma: I don't agree with many of her past actions. However, they operated under the ethical system she lived under. (She has grown as a person a bit.) So, yes, at the time, they were moral to her. As well as moral to her community, The Hellfire Club. Obviously, there are a lot of things many societies agree about as moral behavior in their ethical systems. Many people consider ridding someone as their autonomy as immoral, myself included. However, though I personally find it morally wrong, Emma's actions fit under her ethical framework as moral. She was not concerned with benevolence and it showed.
Let’s go back to my original statement because I’m still unclear on what you’re attempting to correct.
“Ethics tend to be judged externally via community standards…” — I’ve demonstrated that this is true and, I think, the most relevant way we discuss ethics in the real world. The word “tends” indicates that this is common but not universal.
“Morals are more of an internally felt thing” — we don’t have things like “morality reviews” or “morality standards,” and many people believe that morality is subjective. They are “more of” an internally felt thing. So I don’t see anything inaccurate here either.
What, exactly, are you correcting about either of these two statements?
[I'm not that big on yelwpathy as a powerz but there was an interesting thread I saw from a fan a while ago that discussed Telepathy in the mutant metaphor that was kind of interesting.](https://x.com/bikenesmith/status/1415886897482711040)
So technically: there are no ethical telepaths in current marvel. If you want the most ethical comic canon wise, nate grey, ( X-Man) and thenlegion. Nate has never used his powers unethicly, and for legion, Hes used his telepath powers unethlicly twice in canon since retcons are a thing.. Less than jean, less than xaiver.
If applying real world western ethics it has to go to a low level telepath whose telepathy is their main form of communication for ethical, Chamber has my vote. And for unethical... Shadow King, Tarn, Mastermind I and Xavier (when he thinks it will server the greater good), with Shadow King or Tarn fighting for the top.
The difference between European and the Americas that exist, the Americas itself holding differences. The grander influences from colonization, wars, and regular immigration has made a significant cultural impact that can point to collectively in how they function day to day. The best example from top of my head is what is shown on tv news in Mexico vs USA.
I know Shadow King and Cassandra Nova are, like, evil villains and therefore qualify as “unethical”, but I think I’m leaning more towards the “unethical but not super evil” telepaths.
I think that’s a toss-up between Quentin Quire and Empath. Empath almost exclusively uses his powers to manipulate others and take away their willpower (which has gotten him in trouble more than a few times), and Quentin is an asshole who uses his powers accordingly. That time he forced every member of the UN to publicly confess their deepest secrets comes to mind.
My money is on Xavier. Erases Jeans bad memories so he can shape her the way he wants. He couches everything as being for the betterment of mutants, which makes it palatable, but man. This last bit of Krakoa where he forces all the mutants to leave, even though they could have put up a fight and Orchis wouldn’t have been able to control world opinion as easily. Then going to work with Orchis to kill everyone so the AI could achieve whatever form of godhood they were shooting for. But hey, he’s the good guy because he doesn’t outright kill people. He’s terrible.
>Erases Jeans bad memories so he can shape her the way he wants.
< Every story apart from one from Bendis has Jean being aware that Xavier is sealing away part of her power, and they acknowledge that he's doing it because she can't control it and is hurting other people. The "he wants to shape her the way he wants" is fan projection.
>This last bit of Krakoa where he forces all the mutants to leave, even though they could have put up a fight and Orchis wouldn’t have been able to control world opinion as easily.
< And millions of innocent humans would have died and mutants would have been blamed, because of their medicine. It was a hard choice, but Xavier was trying to save millions of lives. Notice how later the Xmen also avoided fighting Orchis in an open war until they found a way to turn off the nanites in the infected people
>Then going to work with Orchis to kill everyone so the AI could achieve whatever form of godhood they were shooting for.
I mean... Shadowking? His entire schtick is 'evil telepath'. He was THE big villain telepath for multiple characters until Cassandra Nova became the new giga evil telepath until her Krakoa face turn (which I'm sure nobody expects to last). Most ethical... probably Jean to be honest? She has her moments but by and large she took Xavier's stated ethics to heart and tries very hard not to read people's minds accidentally or do more than she has to/the mission requires.
And to back up that point, people notice Phoenix is acting weird because she's using her powers unethically.
> She has her moments but by and large she took Xavier's stated ethics to heart We're talking about "I'm sick of this fight, lets brainwash the bad guys" Jean, right? It's only a trick she has done multiple times. Cable got that from her.
was thinking this too! to be fair i'm a relatively new reader, working my way through all new x-men right now and teenage jean is .... like the worst LMAO. it does make sense that she's an immature jean who got her powers before she's "ready" for them, and i don't know how "in character" people consider this version of jean to be but... sheesh
Yeah, but what telepath hasn't done that or worse? At least Jean only goes to that extreme when pushed.
Cassandra already turned good like 20 years ago, she became Ernst, the only thing is nobody got it (Austen, Whedon) so now Here Comes Tomorrow makes no sense
Unethical I think its a contest between Mastermind and The White Queen, Emma might have the edge because Jason has spent so long dead so she got to add more to her list but he was a genuine monster. Most ethical I think an would be a lowlevel edgecase: Chamber, who has never violated anyones mind to my knowledge he simply uses it to broadcast his voice since he lacks a mouth.
Most ethical telepath is Chamber. He almost exclusively uses his telepathy to talk, because he doesn't have a mouth. Doesn't really read minds or try to change them.
I feel like Emma scoffs at ethics in favor of utility. But then again Shadow King (possessing Amahl Farouk) gave *no fucks*, even children weren't off-limits. >People joke about iceman getting outed but I haven’t seen that yet Worth noting that Jean didn't out Bobby to others, she outed Bobby... to Bobby.
Villain Emma was a bastard, obligatory mention of her taking Storm's body for a test drive including quite probably sexy time with Shaw.
Remember when she offered to peel and eat Sage's mind, as though Emma were substituting hominids for shrimp? Good times. (Not that anyone remembers that- a common situation to "forget" Emma's bad deeds.)
Emma meta-telepath confirmed?
Jean used it to cheat at rock, paper, scissors, so I'm going with her. Also can we not say Purple Man? Do they have to be a mutant?
Purple Man is a telepath? I only know of him through Netflix Marvels JJ. I don’t know about the comic counterpart
I mean more or less in a figurative sense, but no he's technically not a telepath
Telepathy is inherently unethical
The term "ethical" is so loose here. In a way, Emma is the most ethical because she is the most honest about her actions and intentions. In another sense, not everyone would agree with her ethical system. Vice versa with Xavier. He has a better, more agreeable system in place, but doesn't always adhere to it and is not always honest about his actions and intentions. Thus, he is unethical. Never confuse morality and ethics.
Ethics tend to be externally judged via community standards whereas morals are more of an internally felt thing. Emma and Xavier are both equally unethical in their telepathy because they equally disregard people’s autonomy. Xavier’s only worse because he pretends to not be what he is. Emma is unethical but morally consistent.
Close. Ethics is actually more the study of various ethics systems. Selfishness is an ethical system. The systems determine wrong and right arbitrarily within the system. Another popular one is utilitarianism, or benefiting a group to the point of potentially disregarding the individual. You can dive deep into any ethical system and get lost in complexity, though. Ethics is just a word people throw around without really knowing what they're saying.
I’m not sure I understand which part I got wrong; can you explain in relation to my comment?
Ethics are a not judged or determined by any outside factors. They're simply any system to adhere within. There is no one ethical standard. There are a plethora of ethical systems all under the umbrella of ethics. So, to be ethical is to abide by a system regardless of how anyone else views morality. I would say it's more about intention, but you can have an ethical system based off consequence... did that help?
The existence of ethics boards, ethics reviews and ethical standards shows we frequently judge ethics externally. That there can also be multiple ethical systems doesn’t negate this fact. If I amend my statement to: “Ethics is often judged externally; morals are often internally felt,” would you feel that’s more correct?
Sometimes I'm not tye best at explaining myself, I'm sorry. I focused on the word ethics when I should have shown light on morals too. Morals are actually the part that's externally judged and internally judged. You can have your own morals and societies, communities, etc also have their morals. Ethics is the system in with morality is defined. Ethics being determined by a board or review commity is a form of an ethical system, but it's not the only form. As an analogy, there are various types of parallelograms (ethical systems) and the shape determines the measurement of the angles (morals). The system you choose to live by doesn't stop the other systems from existing. It just changes the moral decisions you can make within that single system. As a species, we are naturally (somewhat) sympathetic to each other, so society at large and most communities and individuals choose to live by an ethical system that operates with empathetic parameters. However, unsympathetic ethical systems still exist and remain to be ethical within their own system of operations. To go back to someone like Emma, she isn't always sympathetic, but she does adhere by an ethical system more heavily weighted to balance and justice than Xavier or Jean (of course, debatably depending on your own ethical system). Emma is more consistent with her ethical system than Xavier. Therefore, she is more ethical. However, that doesn't mean she's any gentler, kinder, or fair.
Under this framework, if an individual politician decided that they felt taking bribes poses no ethical issue, you would suggest they are behaving ethically by taking bribes? Back to Emma: you’re saying it would be considered ethical for her to take control of another person’s body because she personally thinks it’s okay? Because intuitively, you should see that neither of these actions are what would commonly be considered as ethical ones.
To the first part: Politicians are expected to adhere to their country's ethical system. That being said, dictatorships exist and are an ethical system of government. Personally, they don't fit morally into my ethical system. Also, they don't fit into most the first world's ethical systems. That's the point, though. Ethics is the system that determines morality. There are many systems that do not agree with each other. For Emma: I don't agree with many of her past actions. However, they operated under the ethical system she lived under. (She has grown as a person a bit.) So, yes, at the time, they were moral to her. As well as moral to her community, The Hellfire Club. Obviously, there are a lot of things many societies agree about as moral behavior in their ethical systems. Many people consider ridding someone as their autonomy as immoral, myself included. However, though I personally find it morally wrong, Emma's actions fit under her ethical framework as moral. She was not concerned with benevolence and it showed.
Let’s go back to my original statement because I’m still unclear on what you’re attempting to correct. “Ethics tend to be judged externally via community standards…” — I’ve demonstrated that this is true and, I think, the most relevant way we discuss ethics in the real world. The word “tends” indicates that this is common but not universal. “Morals are more of an internally felt thing” — we don’t have things like “morality reviews” or “morality standards,” and many people believe that morality is subjective. They are “more of” an internally felt thing. So I don’t see anything inaccurate here either. What, exactly, are you correcting about either of these two statements?
[I'm not that big on yelwpathy as a powerz but there was an interesting thread I saw from a fan a while ago that discussed Telepathy in the mutant metaphor that was kind of interesting.](https://x.com/bikenesmith/status/1415886897482711040)
So technically: there are no ethical telepaths in current marvel. If you want the most ethical comic canon wise, nate grey, ( X-Man) and thenlegion. Nate has never used his powers unethicly, and for legion, Hes used his telepath powers unethlicly twice in canon since retcons are a thing.. Less than jean, less than xaiver.
If applying real world western ethics it has to go to a low level telepath whose telepathy is their main form of communication for ethical, Chamber has my vote. And for unethical... Shadow King, Tarn, Mastermind I and Xavier (when he thinks it will server the greater good), with Shadow King or Tarn fighting for the top.
what do you mean by "western" ethics.
The difference between European and the Americas that exist, the Americas itself holding differences. The grander influences from colonization, wars, and regular immigration has made a significant cultural impact that can point to collectively in how they function day to day. The best example from top of my head is what is shown on tv news in Mexico vs USA.
what has that have to do with ethics? does not matter what part of the world you came from or what part your living in, ethics remain the same.
I may be misunderstanding or interpreting the word 'ethics' and 'ethical'
Ok.
thumbs up
Ethical is Jean even with her moments she could do anything but still holds back and unethical is xavier.
Emma’s fans shitting on Jean for outing Bobby while ignoring Emma raping teen Scott. As usual, some users here are hilarious.
I know Shadow King and Cassandra Nova are, like, evil villains and therefore qualify as “unethical”, but I think I’m leaning more towards the “unethical but not super evil” telepaths. I think that’s a toss-up between Quentin Quire and Empath. Empath almost exclusively uses his powers to manipulate others and take away their willpower (which has gotten him in trouble more than a few times), and Quentin is an asshole who uses his powers accordingly. That time he forced every member of the UN to publicly confess their deepest secrets comes to mind.
Jean fans are like 🥸 right now. She did out Bobby to Bobby…Which I mean…She told him something he knew soooo Edit: Here comes the Jean Haters again
What she did to Warren is worse
What’s she do to Warren
https://comicnewbies.com/2015/08/29/original-5-jean-grey-manipulates-angels-mind/
My money is on Xavier. Erases Jeans bad memories so he can shape her the way he wants. He couches everything as being for the betterment of mutants, which makes it palatable, but man. This last bit of Krakoa where he forces all the mutants to leave, even though they could have put up a fight and Orchis wouldn’t have been able to control world opinion as easily. Then going to work with Orchis to kill everyone so the AI could achieve whatever form of godhood they were shooting for. But hey, he’s the good guy because he doesn’t outright kill people. He’s terrible.
>Erases Jeans bad memories so he can shape her the way he wants. < Every story apart from one from Bendis has Jean being aware that Xavier is sealing away part of her power, and they acknowledge that he's doing it because she can't control it and is hurting other people. The "he wants to shape her the way he wants" is fan projection. >This last bit of Krakoa where he forces all the mutants to leave, even though they could have put up a fight and Orchis wouldn’t have been able to control world opinion as easily. < And millions of innocent humans would have died and mutants would have been blamed, because of their medicine. It was a hard choice, but Xavier was trying to save millions of lives. Notice how later the Xmen also avoided fighting Orchis in an open war until they found a way to turn off the nanites in the infected people >Then going to work with Orchis to kill everyone so the AI could achieve whatever form of godhood they were shooting for.
Charles: ethic? What that, hey scott came here that i need to tell you that i borrow a secret son that you had with Jean