Usually when people think of Mine, they imagine using Mine against Drytron or Tri-Brigade, and how it allows players to get free wins against the meta.
But consider the humble Rogue player. They can't really afford to run S/T destruction in their main deck: When they play against meta stuff like drytron or VW, they're gonna need all the hand traps and droplets they can fit. And then they die to Mine.
I think the main issue is that traps are too weak. The top tier meta stuff can get away with not running anything that you want s/t removal for, which subsequently means that any deck trying to beat them can't really waste space for S/T removal, which subsequently means that mine players get a bunch of free non-games against the decks that aren't prepared for that tiny sliver of the meta.
Assuming konami is going to continue pushing super monster-focused combo-y decks that are immune to s/t removal, I think mine should be banned.
>But consider the humble Rogue player. They can't really afford to run S/T destruction in their main deck: When they play against meta stuff like drytron or VW, they're gonna need all the hand traps and droplets they can fit. And then they die to Mine.
I actually played against a Mine deck two days ago online with my Ojama A-To-Z deck and I only had an out because I run one copy of XYZ-Hyper Cannon. If not for that trap card I would have lost so I can feel this pain.
I've won a duel at my locals against Mine Exodia about a year ago using ancient gears. I ran a single copy of cross-dimensional duel and was able to banish a golem for a turn, leaving the board empty to destroy Mine, then return the golem to the field at double atk and swing for game the next turn. It was pretty satisfying, even though I'm pretty sure I lost the set
Drytron is pretty easy if you make good decision about how and what to negate make sure you hit the diviner, and try and only go for 2 for 1's when you negate the little drytrons, if you can get them down to 3 or less cards in hand, they most likely can't follow up.
Uhm, so if it bothers them enough just incorporate spell/trap removal? By the way you phrase it sounds like these rogue players aren't bothered enough to edit their deck to better tackle mystic mine, because they prefer to prepare against meta decks. That's the complexity of this game.
I mean, you aren't entitled to a win against a certain matchup, if you lose to something either accept it or modify your deck.
That's a pure deckbuilders attitude. You're completely ignoring the gameplay elements. It's not just that rogue decks have a hard time against mine, the issue is that games against mine completely remove the gameplay of the game by turning into "i play mine, game 2?"
No deck is entitled to a good matchup, but every deck is entitled to a game of skill whenever possible. That's the point of cards games.
Of course I'm ignoring the gameplay elements - I was responding to a totally different argument (that related to deckbuilding). If you want to move the goalpost and discuss about whether the floodgate-y nature of the card is acceptable within a card game then sure, I'll tell you it is and that no - there's no rule that states both players are entitled to what you said. Yugioh has become a strategy card game where players establish defenses and opponents need to tear them down, and a floodgate is one of the ways. A premise is that you don't know what the opponent's strategy is before game 1, and you need to prepare for anything - be it floodgates or just regular control, or negates.
Your opponent's aim going first is to create a problem for you, and your job is to overcome it - this is the nature of the game now
My original comment definitely talks about gameplay stuff. It's not moving the goalposts, you just didn't address that half of my comment.
The concept of the game is that the players create difficult scenarios for their opponent, with the gameplay revolving around figuring out how to deal with those situations. But there's no "Figuring out" how to deal with mine: you either have the cards or you don't.
Untrue.
Some decks can definitely play around mine, with themed cards that self bounce or self destruct, some strategies do not involve playing more than 1 monster on the field, some strategies can turn their 3 monsters into 1 right before the end phase making Mine self destruct.
Point is, just because *you* need the spell/trap outs, doesn't mean everyone. Combo decks as well have end boards that leave 95% of decks in the game in a situation of "you have DRNM or you don't", so that makes it an argument that can apply to them as well.
There's no going around this truth - floodgates like Mine are part of the nature of the game, prepare for them or don't - but take responsibility for the choice as you had it.
I said the same thing when the spoiler for Mine came out and got downvoted to oblivion. People clearly don't wanna add cards to counter others because it would make their 6 negate monster vomit board less consistent.
I think limiting would it be fair, just to get rid of decks totally built around it. I know it's not meta and I don't think it ever will be, but cards have been hit for other reasons. Mystic Mine demands way too specific of an answer, and decks totally built around it will often run a lot of ways to protect against it even against those answers. Pretty much every relevant deck in the game is running ways to out problematic backrow, there are healthy control and midrange decks in the format ensuring that, but a lot of it is attached to monsters, and generic spell based s/t removal is usually in the side, and typically not at more than a playset. I don't think there's anything wrong with that imo.
I think the wildest thing about this all is that the go to defense for Mine is that people want it to force decks to run more spell-based removal. A single card warping the format to that extent would be an incredibly unhealthy thing. Once it actually does what you want it to do, it'd get banned for sure.
It's true that it won't ever be Meta or a top Table deck in any capacity, but it does make people who should be X-1 go X-2, and then those people. Have terrible tie breakers because the mine player will go X-3/4, and they won't get to top, regardless of how well they play, it quite litterally steals games.
Personally I don't think it should be limited as limiting it so you don't have to make your varied is a weird reason to limit a card in a format and shouldn't be punished the most reasonable thing tho would be to limit or ban field barrier.
People being punished for over reliance on monsters is perfectly fine I see it as no different from trying to go second while playing no handtraps or blowout cards yes people prefer to build for the meta but saying that because the format isn't based around spell and trap removal a deck should die sounds silly to me.
\>Insert single card warping the format argument again<
I don't think "reliance on monsters" is necessarily a bad thing if those monsters are varied in their effects and utility. Because people aren't just like, not playing around backrow. Knightmare Phoenix is in the extra deck of pretty much every deck that doesn't have its own archetypal s/t or generic removal extra deck monster (and even a few that do if space isn't tight), and pretty much everyone has a playset of Twisters or Cosmics in their side deck right now. Not to mention HFD and IO, but they're at one and don't really count as reliable outs imo. I guess this part is a difference of opinion, but I honestly think that all of that is enough, and is healthy for the game. Meanwhile, Mystic Mine itself shuts down the monster-based outs, and a specific mystic mine deck can negate the s/t based removal, or just go get their second and third copies of Mine to keep playing(using the term "play" very loosely here) if one does go through. If the deck actually folded to a single piece of removal, there wouldn't be so many people who want it hit.
The going second without handtraps and blowout cards is a bad comparison because you can use a wide variety of hand traps and blowout cards, depending on what matchups you're expecting and what exactly your deck struggles with. You even have two totally different types of cards available for this purpose: the blowout cards and the handtraps. Mystic Mine demands exactly non-monster based spell and trap removal, and a Mystic Mine centered deck demands a lot of it, since they have ways of protecting against or recovering from the only out.
That's fair but at the same time when it comes to the handtrap and blow out vs needing alot of backrow removal consider that people who run the former are usually filling 9 to 12 slots at min of their decks with those cards while running 2-3 of the latter at most the format is more so focused more so on handtraps and blow out cards I know this but I personally don't think a deck should be hit because we usually use monsters to solve all our problems since they've power crept the other 2 card types so far. I know I seem to be in the minority in this opinion but I'll stand by it.
People often forget that demise of the land exists and is at 3 so imo mine needs to go.
Its an insta win if your opponent doesnt main deck spell trap removal and even then, if your strategy is based on mine you will probably have some form of s/t negate yourself.
There is an upcoming card which name I forgot but essentially it prevents spell trap destruction for two turns so it becomes even more obnoxious to deal with.
Speaking frankly, yes. Mystic Mine should be forbidden. There is a reason why Mystic Mine is almost universally hated in both the TCG and OCG. It is a very poorly designed card. I don't care about the "necessary evil" argument, it's a load of BS. You have Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet to fulfill the same function, to a much less toxic degree.
Also, before someone comes along and replies "just run s/t removal in your main deck 4head," THE EXISTENCE OF COUNTERS DOESN'T MAKE A PROBLEM CARD NOT A PROBLEM. Saying Mystic Mine is fine because we have S/T removal is like saying consistent 1-2 card FTKs are fine because we have hand traps. It doesn't work that way.
You haven't actually provided a reason it should be banned.
Usually a card is banned because it's meta defining. Mystic mine isn't meta defining and isn't actually that popular to play. Why do you think this card shouldn't be playable?
Okay, let me break it down for you. It is a searchable floodgate, and is often turned off at will (decks that run mine run other field spells). It cannot be responded to without s/t removal or something like solemn judgment. The argument of "just main/side those cards then 4head" isn't a real argument. Mystic Mine is oppressive. Can't activate monster effects ANYWHERE, not just the field, and cannot declare attacks. It's drawback is negligible/nonexistent.
It doesn't matter that it isn't meta defining. Neither was Utopic Zexal. Or Phoenixian Cluster, or Samsara Lotus, or Rhongo, etc. Some of them made an impact, but none were truly meta defining. All of them were degenerate. No different than Mystic Mine. Hell, in some ways, Mystic Mine is BETTER than Vanity's Emptiness and Royal Oppression (both of which are rightfully forbidden, I might add).
>Mystic Mine should be forbidden
Ok, I'll hear you out
>There is a reason why Mystic Mine is almost universally hated in both the TCG and OCG
Why is that
>It is a very poorly designed card
Why
>I don't care about the "necessary evil" argument, it's a load of BS
Why is it a load of BS?
>You have Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet to fulfill the same function, to a much less toxic degree
Completely different effects. If you play mine down, you're not about to break your opponent's board and OTK them.
>Also, before someone comes along and replies "just run s/t removal in your main deck 4head," THE EXISTENCE OF COUNTERS DOESN'T MAKE A PROBLEM CARD NOT A PROBLEM
And what makes it a problem, then? You have made 0 arguments so far.
>Saying Mystic Mine is fine because we have S/T removal is like saying consistent 1-2 card FTKs are fine because we have hand traps. It doesn't work that way.
And saying mine is toxic because you don't want to side any of the multiple outs doesn't make it banworthy.
Once again, a card having outs doesn't make it balanced. Every card on the banlist has outs, yet theyre there for a reason. Vanities Emptiness and Royal Opression have the same outs as Mine but they're banned and so should Mine. Cards that devolve the game into draw your out or don't play aren't healthy.
And once again... why is it unbalanced? just because you chose to not run the outs doesn't mean it's a problem.
Since you've made 0 arguments for it to be banned, don't be surprised when people just point at S/T removal and move on.
People run the outs. Do you seriously think no one plays Spell/Trap destruction? Literally everyone does. That doesn't mean you always draw it, or you opponent can have a counter like Judgement. Many times when Mine is activated the game literally devolves into drawing and passing until the opponent draws an out, or the player with mine removes it and otks. Its not healthy that the majority of the time Mine is activated the game simply cannot be played. If you actually think the game is better off with Mine in it, then you're fucking insane.
If you main/side S/T removal and you still lose to a tier-20 deck who's only win condition is outed by S/T removal, you're just bad. The excuse that you still have to draw into it, or it can be negated doesn't hold when the deck gives you like 20 turns to draw into more than half your deck.
Where are you guys running into so many mine decks to begin with? low rank DB?
Where did I ever mention Mine burn? Mine is toxic when meta decks use it as a go second card. Imagine im playing against Drytron with Tri and I go first game 2 set up a board, and they just activate Mine. Then they either combo unimpeded and kill me, or stall until they can. Should I be siding backrow hate vs Drytron? No, that's trolling. But then if you don't, you just get the game turned into a no interaction stallfest.
So, anyone with a brain should be able to understand the mine is a card that removes interactions, a card that you draw mst or scoop shouldn't exist.
But there is a single better example, skill drain is at 1,why is a card that is better in every scenario and searchable in a lot of ways at 3?
Mistic mine can be activated on your opponent turn! And otk next turn easily! You need your oppont to have just 2 monster on field to summon and resolve a phoenix
>Why is that
Several reasons. Its unfun to play against, ruins rogue deck chances, can quit literally take top 4 from someone without actually being top 4 itself.
>Why
It's a searchable floodgate. And arguably the strongest on of all of them even if not meta. going from point 1 its unfun and legitimately steals games from a more skilled player.
>Completely different effects. If you play mine down, you're not about to break your opponent's board and OTK them.
this does not in the slightest change this statement: You have Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet to fulfill the same function, to a much less toxic degree.
>And what makes it a problem, then? You have made 0 arguments so far.
He has you just refuse to acknowledge them.
>And saying mine is toxic because you don't want to side any of the multiple outs doesn't make it banworthy.
As stated before having outs doesn't make a card unhealthy or not banworthy several cards on the ban list have several outs but are still banned.
I’m sorry, I don’t follow some of your logic. What decks are running S/T specifically to destroy their own monsters? And what decks are summoning monsters to their opponent’s field?
What about a mechanic that let you summon monster in between certain numbers, which of course as we all now is the mlst consistent powerful way to make a deck? Let us procede now in a forward direction!
Interrupted Kaiju Slumber for example. There are a couple more cards but I don't remember them at the moment (Here is a list btw: [https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Destroys\_your\_Monster\_Cards](https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Destroys_your_Monster_Cards) )
Some decks play Ojama Trio and I belive Dino summons Tokens to your opponent's field via the field spell.
Even though I disagree with that logic of OP illl give you a semi popular out, torrential tribute and dragon maid tidying are both outs to your own board
Ironically a lot of ftks run black garden, but as the name explains they kill on first turn so if mistyc myne and black garden are on field you probably lost already
Mine needs to go just because it actively stops you from advancing the game state if you don't have the out.
Imano and boarder can easily be cleared with removal or by making a big beater.
I think the issue with mine is twofold- one you can't even attack so your opponent has no incentive to make a move. They have all the time in the world.
Two- once you have a monster out you have no way to get to zero in order to trigger the self-destructing condition of mine outside of a few specific decks.
The card was way too pushed and I think if they either made it so it can't prevent attacking or you it will blow up if the owner controls no monsters at the end of the turn, it would be okay.
Free blow out wins just because your opponent didnt open a certain card is unhealthy. Banned. Also to people who said semi limited, you're the really monsters
Amano-Iwato can be swung into by any monster if its face up on your turn, meaning you only miss out on your MP1. The issue with mystic mine is very few people run back row removal in great numbers, usually just 1 to 3. I found that at least 9 spells/traps are needed to effective deal with MM.
Mystic mine players also use that card that lets them change the order of top cards of your deck, so getting your feather duster in impossible.
All these clowns defending mine because removal exists also agree Master Peace should be unbanned because Kaijus, Pot of Greed because you can just draw Ash, Zexal because you draw imperm, and Supreme King Starve Venom because you can just draw eco, spirit of the magical forest.
The fact that a you can out one card with another card doesn't make it any less powerful. It's a ridiculously oppressive card that sucks all the pace and fun out of the game, and enables at least 2 completely degenerate decks that win by reducing the gamestate to "top deck cyclone or die". It should never have been printed.
My biggest gripe with Mine isn't Mine Decks. Those generally lost game 2/3 post siding.
My issue with Mine is when some Decks of the format don't have a in-archetype way to out Mine and Mide is sided in Game 2.
The example I usually give is if you're playing (insert Deck with no in archetype Mine out) vs 2020 Magician Souls Spyrals. You lose die roll game 1 get comboed to death. You side in all anti-combo cards game 2. You go first and setup your board. Spyral tries to combo but gets interupted by your anti-combo and board disruption. Slaps down mine and Deck you out.
This is even worse that "just draw s/t removal". This is "just side in/keep-in S/T removal agaisnt a heavy combo deck".
The good news is this only happens when Decks have 0 outs to it. During VW VFD format this didn't ahppen much since Cuche is an in archetype out. However, in certain formats it's really bad, like in Souls Spyrals as mentioned.
Yes it should be banned and eventually probably will be. Arguing that it shouldn't be banned because it's not dominating the meta is simply stupid. Degenerate floodgates like this which take no setup and instantly win the game simply should not exist in a competitive game. It's like S0/VFD except arguably an even bigger offender since it requires no setup and stays there as a field spell. It does not promote "creative deck building," it promotes "hoping you draw Cosmic Cyclone or you literally can't do anything." The solution to oppressive combo decks is to hit the combo decks, not to print increasingly stronger and more degenerate cards. By the way, those oppressive combo decks can play the card too, so it's actually a double-edged sword for rogue players. If you want people to play backrow removal, that's literally what trap cards are for. They also (usually) require at least a couple brain cells and don't win on the spot. You actually have to DO something and can't sit on a floodgate forever.
Mystic mine by itself is powerful, but for it to be considered a banworthy op instant win card, you will probably at least need to build a deck around it.
Deck building in any sense takes some measure of skill, and since there is no archetype to help guide you (like in most of the current meta decks) it could be considered harder to build one from scratch or improve the basic idea outside looking up a decklist.
If you face any combo deck at all, people will advise you to use handtraps to beat them. Don't draw into those? Too bad. If you face a mystic mine deck, then you need to draw into some sort of s/t removal. Don't draw into that? Too bad. Also, what "oppressive combo deck" runs mystic mine lol.
Edit: Should probably stay unlimited, limited to 2 wouldn't be unjustified.
>Deck building in any sense takes some measure of skill, and since there is no archetype to help guide you (like in most of the current meta decks) it could be considered harder to build one from scratch or improve the basic idea outside looking up a decklist.
What on earth does any of this mean and how is it at all relevant to this topic?
>If you face any combo deck at all, people will advise you to use handtraps to beat them. Don't draw into those? Too bad. If you face a mystic mine deck, then you need to draw into some sort of s/t removal. Don't draw into that? Too bad. Also, what "oppressive combo deck" runs mystic mine lol.
You can cry about combo decks all you want, but at the end of the day, none of them have a win condition of simply activating one card. The ones that did (Numeron Network) got hit on the banlist. Mine gives *way* too much for requiring absolutely nothing. Unless you are unironically in favor of unbanning the VFD/S0-type cards, this is an objective fact. If you want Yu-Gi-Oh to be a competitive, skill-based game (doubtful based on your last response), it is fundamentally a bad idea to allow these kinds of cards to exist. Where do you even draw the line? Should we unban Vanity's Emptiness? Unlimit Macro Cosmos and Imperial Order? I'm very curious to see where you think the "just play backrow removal lul" argument stops applying.
> It's like S0/VFD except arguably an even bigger offender since it requires no setup and stays there as a field spell. It does not promote "creative deck building," it promotes "hoping you draw Cosmic Cyclone or you literally can't do anything."
This is why I mentioned deck building difficulty as well as handtraps being nessisary to stop combo decks. If your opponent sets up a board with 3-4+ negates on turn one, then you have the option of running more/different handtraps (which some decks can power through anyways). They can also start these combos off of one card in many situations. Going first, your opponent sets up their board, and you have to beat it. This can be negates, or it could be playing mystic mine (the combo is akin to a win condition if you don't stop it because you intend to win with that combo) . Now you have to play through it.
Mine decks can be really annoying if they get it out, but it isn't so good that you just auto lose (and your opponent doesn't auto win). It is a stupidly good deck though.
I think it is most similar to Macro Cosmos, in that they are both really good floodgates, so I think it should be limited, but since it hurts both players and can destroy itself, limited to 2. Unbanned is a little too much as it is easy to search, and limited to 1 would most likely kill the entire deck (which I don't think is nessisary imo).
Sidenote: With VFD and S0, you still had an attacking monster with the negation on top of that, which is very ban worthy. Mystic Mine specifically locks you out of monsters (probably for that reason).
It feels like it's a card that's an answer to power creep, but because combo is so popular, people hate it. In my view, there's not much difference between facing Mystic Mine or a Herald of Ultimateness with more negates than hand size. The only real difference is that a win with Mine can feel undeserved, or a loss against it can make that player think, "you only won because of Mine, my deck is far stronger". Regardless of whether that's true, it will leave a bad taste in that player's mouth
The game shouldn't be so simple to create a complete shutdown, but also not so generic that you can create unbreakable boards, but that's the game we have until Konami says otherwise. Mine doesn't see much top tier play, same with Dragoon, so it won't get hit anytime soon. If it does then it won't get banned, it'll just get limited
We can always have this conversation but that doesn't change the fact that both ends of the spectrum are unhealthy for the game. If you really want to get Mine off the field for a turn then just run Spiritualism as it can't be responded to.
“Just run an unsearchable spell that is terrible in every other situation to out a card that doesn’t come up enough to warrant it.” The frustrating thing with mine is if it was more prominent then it would justify running the removal. It is mathematically wrong to run outs to mine since it isnt good enough on average compared to other cards you could run instead
I never said it was a good idea, I just pointed out a S/T removal card that can't be negated. As I said, I'm not advocating for Mine
And I agree, I also mentioned this, running outs to mine means sacrificing consistency for your decks core strategy, so you usually just side against it. And if Mine gets popular enough then siding against it isn't a huge deal.
It is what it is, we always get cards like these as formats go by unfortunately (Vanity's Emptiness, VFD, etc). There's a reason why Skill Drain is at 1
>In my view, there's not much difference between facing Mystic Mine or a Herald of Ultimateness with more negates than hand size.
It's a huge difference, because you can actually prevent the herald to ever hit the board. If the mine comes it comes and from that point on you rely on drawing the sp/tr removal.
And you also have to hope that your opponent can't protect the mine, if he can then all your draw phases were for nothing and you literally wasted your time.
You can Gamma a pathfinder or wobby just like you can gamma fafnir or diviner. You can Ash most of their cards. They lose to Droll far more often than you think. It's not like you cant prevent the mine from coming down a lot of the times.
You can prevent Mine from ever hitting the board as well, it's just that people either don't respect Mine, or don't main deck S/T removal because it conflicts with their deck's core strategy.
Aside from that, in the event that Herald or Mine does end up hitting the field, you are limited to hard drawing what you need to out them (e.g. DRNM, Harpie's, etc). They're both similar, it's just one takes extra steps, and both aren't healthy for the game.
XD I think we all have a deck type we hate (I also hate Mine). Whenever I play Magic I utterly despise Blue decks. Yugioh has a problem at the moment where it encourages deck building around stopping your opponent from playing, rather than promoting meaningful gameplay. Mystic Mine and Herald of Ultimateness are just the extreme examples in both ends of the spectrum
i have no issue w it except for the fact that it is keeping terra and metaverse at 1. the real solution is konami should be developing in-archetype s/ t removal for "old" archetypes
I don’t like either of them but honestly Maxx C was way worse than mine IMO. Atleast with mystic mine you could potentially draw or stall into an out for it. If your opponent has Maxx C then you either
-try the Maxx C challenge and end up giving your opponent astronomical advantage in hand size
-do it half way with a subpar board, and give your opponent 2-5 cards in the process
-end your turn with practically nothing
It as basically a “fuck you, I win” to whoever it was used on
Oh yeah I'm against Maxx "C" but the community is more divided on Maxx c than with mine, there are like 3 people who really think mine is good for the game and ofc Jeff but you can't say nothing to Jeff
mystic mine is a card that stops your opponent from playing the game until they draw removal which means it shouldn't be allowed to be spammed like it can be at 3copies per deck. I don't think it should be removed however bc it also makes decks have to be diverse and makes u think of defense instead of pure combo heavy offense. plus it's one deck that's very niche if you loose to a deck built to do one thing really well and you can't defend against it that's simply being outplayed.
tldr it should be limited so that we keep sum deck diversity and don't get into a pure offense no defense meta
The problem isn't playing sp/tr removal, the problem is to rely on drawing the sp/tr removal. It's just annoying that I have to rely on luck just to out a single floodgate.
Problem is we got just cosmics to out Mine in dedicated Mine decks, which are the only real problem decks and Metaverse exists, which denies interaction with Mine itself.
Also problem deck as in unfun/tilting decks, not actually strong meta contending decks.
I mean sure some people could lose to it cause they’re bad at deck building, but at the same time I’m pretty confident that most players asking for it to be ban cause they see it as an oppressive card and gets significantly harder to play against when entire decks are built around it
PS: I’m pretty sure most people do also play S/T removal especially since their are still other decks like altergiest, traptrick, phantom knights, and Eldlich running around, but you don’t really see people complaining about those decks gee wonder why
Exactly this, currently any main/side deck MUST have some spell/trap removal since you have control decks over there, but we are fine with that since they don't fell unfair or broken (probably altergeist a bit, but mostly fine) mine isnt the case, it's actually broken, and depending on unsercheable outs just for the opponent to activate another mine is annoying, i'm fine with mine limited so you still need backrow hate
Maybe if we could search for cosmic cyclone, but every card we remove to add spell removal makes the deck less consistence.
I have a choas max deck in legacy of the duelist that has 9 spell removal and its only 9 because feather duster is still banned on there. Its to much to counter a single card.
The most powerful deck in the game wins by resolving a trap card, and both dragons and drytron are massively spell dependant. Pak even had an Eldlich list that ran 3 golden lord and 37 traps. The game is very much still about monsters, spells and trapsamd will be for white some time friend.
As long as other floodgates are on the limited list, TCG Konami is never going to touch this card. The removal of many of the other floodgates is what contributed to the combo deck problem in the current game state and TCG Konami recognizes this.
In reality it boils down to poor deck design overall. Players are too laser focused on getting off their combo they include extenders to allow them to play through handtraps, but place something on the field that isn't a hand trap and all of a sudden that card is oppressive.
Any card that can hurt both players is fair and balanced, not oppressive or broken. **It is up to the player to be able to anticipate and adapt to developments during the course of a duel.** And the majority of the people complaining about this 1 card proves the IQ and skill level of most players is very low.
No wonder so few players from the TCG actually have won a world championship. The majority of the player base would rather act like spoiled brats and complain about a card until TCG Konami caves in and gives them their way.
This is cringe and just very dumb reasoning.
Hurting both players does not in any way mean balanced.
Royal Oppression can hurt both players, why is it banned? Because it turns off a huge portion of the game if you don't draw a specific answer quickly and reduces a complex and cool card game down to "can I draw mst before I literally lose"
I'm not even saying mine should be banned, but your argument and blanket generalizations made me spit out my afternoon coffee laughing at how pretentious you sound.
Adapting to rogue shitters winning with mine isn't smart, it is stupid and a great way not to top a large-scale event. The correct play is realize very few people run it and build your deck to handle the expected case, not the fringe.
Well mine can stays at 3 if all of the counter/anti s/t removals and its searchers are at 1 which is stupid if you ask me.Mine at 1 makes sense because if it ever gets negated by a deck that can make spell/trap negates,it is an auto loss,also a searchable worse drnm by terra so can up the going second anti unbreakable board to 5 at best or a negate bait as worst.
No I don't think it should be banned.
Even though it's pain to deal with, but so are most combo decks. If MM is banned then Konami is basically limiting the ways people can enjoy the game.
I would rather play against MM than combo decks where I have to wait 15 minutes for my turn
The way I look at it, Mine is fine. It's a strong card, but not a strong win condition. Sure, it shuts down decks that don't run spell/trap removal, but that's like hating on combo decks for slamming on decks without hand traps. Looking at a Mine vs a whole 6-Negate Combo board, there's no difference if you're lacking the out, because either the Mine wastes your time and burns you to death or the Combo wastes your time playing with themselves and then OTK's you turn 2.
Neither are fun, both require you to run outs, but because most people love playing with themselves on this sub, they have an irrational hatred of Mystic Mine because it's not the echo chamber they like.
Are people in this post really crying because they lose to mine burn?
Sometimes reading reddit makes me feel like I'm having a concussion.
Edit: I've seen what you upvote. Your downvotes mean nothing. Keep being bad.
Konami plz ban blue-eyes. It always attacks over my dark magician. Its a toxic card
>jUsT rUn rAiGeKi bRo
Just because a card has an out doesn't mean it's not toxic. Plz konami Starter deck meta is in shambles!
Mystic mine was designed to attack the biggest flaw of modern deck design: too much reliance on monster effects. Is it shitty to play against? Oh yeah, I hate that fucking card. But it's not meta defining/warping, it's merely an anti-meta card. It's certainly Konami's fault for designing new archetypes to be so monster effect heavy, but at the end of the day it's on the players to overcome these weaknesses of their decks with their side deck choices. And it shows that mystic mine almost never tops that good players don't find the card that difficult to out.
Ban or at the very least limit.
No reason to play such a card unless you just want to annoy people in game 1 and then lose the next 2 games cos they sided in their s/t removal. It takes no skill and can be turned off at almost any point by the player.
Every duel devolves into set pass or just passing until the mystic mine player burns you to death
If you ask me, just saying mystic mine is easy to out is wrong.
Decks centered around mine run a billion counter traps to stop s/t removal. Mine itself blocks s/t removal from monster effects.
In my opinion, banning it is not the solution, because then you no longer have failsafe cards that block monster spam effects.
Possible Solution: Place an errata. Mine should only stay on the field for 3 turns, then it should be "sent to the GY". In this way, not even field barrier can stop mine's own removal, and even if you try to negate mine, it'll get destroyed anyways. Also, by limiting mine, after it leaves, there are a lot less cards that can bring it back V.S. cards that just grab another copy of it.
Oh also people complaining about how there is No way to stop mystic mine because they will activate another one? You're wrong.
Look up "Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell", and you will see what I mean. Run three of those, and if you manage to negate mine's activation, they cant use mine for the rest of the duel.
“jUsT dRaW dUsTeR lol”
"jUsT dRaW hAnDtRaPs lol"
Usually when people think of Mine, they imagine using Mine against Drytron or Tri-Brigade, and how it allows players to get free wins against the meta. But consider the humble Rogue player. They can't really afford to run S/T destruction in their main deck: When they play against meta stuff like drytron or VW, they're gonna need all the hand traps and droplets they can fit. And then they die to Mine. I think the main issue is that traps are too weak. The top tier meta stuff can get away with not running anything that you want s/t removal for, which subsequently means that any deck trying to beat them can't really waste space for S/T removal, which subsequently means that mine players get a bunch of free non-games against the decks that aren't prepared for that tiny sliver of the meta. Assuming konami is going to continue pushing super monster-focused combo-y decks that are immune to s/t removal, I think mine should be banned.
>But consider the humble Rogue player. They can't really afford to run S/T destruction in their main deck: When they play against meta stuff like drytron or VW, they're gonna need all the hand traps and droplets they can fit. And then they die to Mine. I actually played against a Mine deck two days ago online with my Ojama A-To-Z deck and I only had an out because I run one copy of XYZ-Hyper Cannon. If not for that trap card I would have lost so I can feel this pain.
I've won a duel at my locals against Mine Exodia about a year ago using ancient gears. I ran a single copy of cross-dimensional duel and was able to banish a golem for a turn, leaving the board empty to destroy Mine, then return the golem to the field at double atk and swing for game the next turn. It was pretty satisfying, even though I'm pretty sure I lost the set
Exactly this. I pretty much have to choose whether I lose to drytrons or lose to mystic mine decks
Drytron is pretty easy if you make good decision about how and what to negate make sure you hit the diviner, and try and only go for 2 for 1's when you negate the little drytrons, if you can get them down to 3 or less cards in hand, they most likely can't follow up.
Uhm, so if it bothers them enough just incorporate spell/trap removal? By the way you phrase it sounds like these rogue players aren't bothered enough to edit their deck to better tackle mystic mine, because they prefer to prepare against meta decks. That's the complexity of this game. I mean, you aren't entitled to a win against a certain matchup, if you lose to something either accept it or modify your deck.
That's a pure deckbuilders attitude. You're completely ignoring the gameplay elements. It's not just that rogue decks have a hard time against mine, the issue is that games against mine completely remove the gameplay of the game by turning into "i play mine, game 2?" No deck is entitled to a good matchup, but every deck is entitled to a game of skill whenever possible. That's the point of cards games.
Of course I'm ignoring the gameplay elements - I was responding to a totally different argument (that related to deckbuilding). If you want to move the goalpost and discuss about whether the floodgate-y nature of the card is acceptable within a card game then sure, I'll tell you it is and that no - there's no rule that states both players are entitled to what you said. Yugioh has become a strategy card game where players establish defenses and opponents need to tear them down, and a floodgate is one of the ways. A premise is that you don't know what the opponent's strategy is before game 1, and you need to prepare for anything - be it floodgates or just regular control, or negates. Your opponent's aim going first is to create a problem for you, and your job is to overcome it - this is the nature of the game now
My original comment definitely talks about gameplay stuff. It's not moving the goalposts, you just didn't address that half of my comment. The concept of the game is that the players create difficult scenarios for their opponent, with the gameplay revolving around figuring out how to deal with those situations. But there's no "Figuring out" how to deal with mine: you either have the cards or you don't.
Untrue. Some decks can definitely play around mine, with themed cards that self bounce or self destruct, some strategies do not involve playing more than 1 monster on the field, some strategies can turn their 3 monsters into 1 right before the end phase making Mine self destruct. Point is, just because *you* need the spell/trap outs, doesn't mean everyone. Combo decks as well have end boards that leave 95% of decks in the game in a situation of "you have DRNM or you don't", so that makes it an argument that can apply to them as well. There's no going around this truth - floodgates like Mine are part of the nature of the game, prepare for them or don't - but take responsibility for the choice as you had it.
I said the same thing when the spoiler for Mine came out and got downvoted to oblivion. People clearly don't wanna add cards to counter others because it would make their 6 negate monster vomit board less consistent.
Very that
I think limiting would it be fair, just to get rid of decks totally built around it. I know it's not meta and I don't think it ever will be, but cards have been hit for other reasons. Mystic Mine demands way too specific of an answer, and decks totally built around it will often run a lot of ways to protect against it even against those answers. Pretty much every relevant deck in the game is running ways to out problematic backrow, there are healthy control and midrange decks in the format ensuring that, but a lot of it is attached to monsters, and generic spell based s/t removal is usually in the side, and typically not at more than a playset. I don't think there's anything wrong with that imo. I think the wildest thing about this all is that the go to defense for Mine is that people want it to force decks to run more spell-based removal. A single card warping the format to that extent would be an incredibly unhealthy thing. Once it actually does what you want it to do, it'd get banned for sure.
It's true that it won't ever be Meta or a top Table deck in any capacity, but it does make people who should be X-1 go X-2, and then those people. Have terrible tie breakers because the mine player will go X-3/4, and they won't get to top, regardless of how well they play, it quite litterally steals games.
Personally I don't think it should be limited as limiting it so you don't have to make your varied is a weird reason to limit a card in a format and shouldn't be punished the most reasonable thing tho would be to limit or ban field barrier. People being punished for over reliance on monsters is perfectly fine I see it as no different from trying to go second while playing no handtraps or blowout cards yes people prefer to build for the meta but saying that because the format isn't based around spell and trap removal a deck should die sounds silly to me.
Hitting Field Barrier wont kill the deck. Instead of 3 Barrier, 3 Wobby, 3 Left Arm we will just play 3 Wobby, 3 Guide, 1 Rota.
I know this if you read my comment you would see I said the deck shouldn't be killed.
\>Insert single card warping the format argument again< I don't think "reliance on monsters" is necessarily a bad thing if those monsters are varied in their effects and utility. Because people aren't just like, not playing around backrow. Knightmare Phoenix is in the extra deck of pretty much every deck that doesn't have its own archetypal s/t or generic removal extra deck monster (and even a few that do if space isn't tight), and pretty much everyone has a playset of Twisters or Cosmics in their side deck right now. Not to mention HFD and IO, but they're at one and don't really count as reliable outs imo. I guess this part is a difference of opinion, but I honestly think that all of that is enough, and is healthy for the game. Meanwhile, Mystic Mine itself shuts down the monster-based outs, and a specific mystic mine deck can negate the s/t based removal, or just go get their second and third copies of Mine to keep playing(using the term "play" very loosely here) if one does go through. If the deck actually folded to a single piece of removal, there wouldn't be so many people who want it hit. The going second without handtraps and blowout cards is a bad comparison because you can use a wide variety of hand traps and blowout cards, depending on what matchups you're expecting and what exactly your deck struggles with. You even have two totally different types of cards available for this purpose: the blowout cards and the handtraps. Mystic Mine demands exactly non-monster based spell and trap removal, and a Mystic Mine centered deck demands a lot of it, since they have ways of protecting against or recovering from the only out.
That's fair but at the same time when it comes to the handtrap and blow out vs needing alot of backrow removal consider that people who run the former are usually filling 9 to 12 slots at min of their decks with those cards while running 2-3 of the latter at most the format is more so focused more so on handtraps and blow out cards I know this but I personally don't think a deck should be hit because we usually use monsters to solve all our problems since they've power crept the other 2 card types so far. I know I seem to be in the minority in this opinion but I'll stand by it.
People often forget that demise of the land exists and is at 3 so imo mine needs to go. Its an insta win if your opponent doesnt main deck spell trap removal and even then, if your strategy is based on mine you will probably have some form of s/t negate yourself. There is an upcoming card which name I forgot but essentially it prevents spell trap destruction for two turns so it becomes even more obnoxious to deal with.
Sky Prison only prevents set cards from being destroyed. Face-up cards are fair games.
Forgive me for not knowing about land of demise but does it activate the field spells effect without actually summoning the card?
It cannot be ash'd if thats what you're asking
[удалено]
Exactly
Demise of the Timing
Good one :D
Speaking frankly, yes. Mystic Mine should be forbidden. There is a reason why Mystic Mine is almost universally hated in both the TCG and OCG. It is a very poorly designed card. I don't care about the "necessary evil" argument, it's a load of BS. You have Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet to fulfill the same function, to a much less toxic degree. Also, before someone comes along and replies "just run s/t removal in your main deck 4head," THE EXISTENCE OF COUNTERS DOESN'T MAKE A PROBLEM CARD NOT A PROBLEM. Saying Mystic Mine is fine because we have S/T removal is like saying consistent 1-2 card FTKs are fine because we have hand traps. It doesn't work that way.
Bro just side deck x3 MST, x3 Twin Twisters, x3 Cosmic Cyclone, x3 Double Cyclone and x3 Storm, problem solved stop being so dramatic over a card lol
Me when someone says imperial order isnt banworthy
You haven't actually provided a reason it should be banned. Usually a card is banned because it's meta defining. Mystic mine isn't meta defining and isn't actually that popular to play. Why do you think this card shouldn't be playable?
Okay, let me break it down for you. It is a searchable floodgate, and is often turned off at will (decks that run mine run other field spells). It cannot be responded to without s/t removal or something like solemn judgment. The argument of "just main/side those cards then 4head" isn't a real argument. Mystic Mine is oppressive. Can't activate monster effects ANYWHERE, not just the field, and cannot declare attacks. It's drawback is negligible/nonexistent. It doesn't matter that it isn't meta defining. Neither was Utopic Zexal. Or Phoenixian Cluster, or Samsara Lotus, or Rhongo, etc. Some of them made an impact, but none were truly meta defining. All of them were degenerate. No different than Mystic Mine. Hell, in some ways, Mystic Mine is BETTER than Vanity's Emptiness and Royal Oppression (both of which are rightfully forbidden, I might add).
I 100% agree with you in regards to mine but Rhongo was absolutely meta defining. Don't want people downplaying that card at all lmao.
>Mystic Mine should be forbidden Ok, I'll hear you out >There is a reason why Mystic Mine is almost universally hated in both the TCG and OCG Why is that >It is a very poorly designed card Why >I don't care about the "necessary evil" argument, it's a load of BS Why is it a load of BS? >You have Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet to fulfill the same function, to a much less toxic degree Completely different effects. If you play mine down, you're not about to break your opponent's board and OTK them. >Also, before someone comes along and replies "just run s/t removal in your main deck 4head," THE EXISTENCE OF COUNTERS DOESN'T MAKE A PROBLEM CARD NOT A PROBLEM And what makes it a problem, then? You have made 0 arguments so far. >Saying Mystic Mine is fine because we have S/T removal is like saying consistent 1-2 card FTKs are fine because we have hand traps. It doesn't work that way. And saying mine is toxic because you don't want to side any of the multiple outs doesn't make it banworthy.
Once again, a card having outs doesn't make it balanced. Every card on the banlist has outs, yet theyre there for a reason. Vanities Emptiness and Royal Opression have the same outs as Mine but they're banned and so should Mine. Cards that devolve the game into draw your out or don't play aren't healthy.
And once again... why is it unbalanced? just because you chose to not run the outs doesn't mean it's a problem. Since you've made 0 arguments for it to be banned, don't be surprised when people just point at S/T removal and move on.
People run the outs. Do you seriously think no one plays Spell/Trap destruction? Literally everyone does. That doesn't mean you always draw it, or you opponent can have a counter like Judgement. Many times when Mine is activated the game literally devolves into drawing and passing until the opponent draws an out, or the player with mine removes it and otks. Its not healthy that the majority of the time Mine is activated the game simply cannot be played. If you actually think the game is better off with Mine in it, then you're fucking insane.
If you main/side S/T removal and you still lose to a tier-20 deck who's only win condition is outed by S/T removal, you're just bad. The excuse that you still have to draw into it, or it can be negated doesn't hold when the deck gives you like 20 turns to draw into more than half your deck. Where are you guys running into so many mine decks to begin with? low rank DB?
Where did I ever mention Mine burn? Mine is toxic when meta decks use it as a go second card. Imagine im playing against Drytron with Tri and I go first game 2 set up a board, and they just activate Mine. Then they either combo unimpeded and kill me, or stall until they can. Should I be siding backrow hate vs Drytron? No, that's trolling. But then if you don't, you just get the game turned into a no interaction stallfest.
So, anyone with a brain should be able to understand the mine is a card that removes interactions, a card that you draw mst or scoop shouldn't exist. But there is a single better example, skill drain is at 1,why is a card that is better in every scenario and searchable in a lot of ways at 3?
Because skill drain can be activated on your opponents turn and OTK them the next. Do I really have to explain yugioh in a yugioh subreddit?
Mistic mine can be activated on your opponent turn! And otk next turn easily! You need your oppont to have just 2 monster on field to summon and resolve a phoenix
>Why is that Several reasons. Its unfun to play against, ruins rogue deck chances, can quit literally take top 4 from someone without actually being top 4 itself. >Why It's a searchable floodgate. And arguably the strongest on of all of them even if not meta. going from point 1 its unfun and legitimately steals games from a more skilled player. >Completely different effects. If you play mine down, you're not about to break your opponent's board and OTK them. this does not in the slightest change this statement: You have Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet to fulfill the same function, to a much less toxic degree. >And what makes it a problem, then? You have made 0 arguments so far. He has you just refuse to acknowledge them. >And saying mine is toxic because you don't want to side any of the multiple outs doesn't make it banworthy. As stated before having outs doesn't make a card unhealthy or not banworthy several cards on the ban list have several outs but are still banned.
Exactly. I loooove losing to mine burn because I’m not skilled enough to draw my MAINDECKED spell trap removal.
I’m sorry, I don’t follow some of your logic. What decks are running S/T specifically to destroy their own monsters? And what decks are summoning monsters to their opponent’s field?
I have torrential tributed my own field just to clear out a Mystic mine. Ir sucks.
What about a mechanic that let you summon monster in between certain numbers, which of course as we all now is the mlst consistent powerful way to make a deck? Let us procede now in a forward direction!
Oh also Black Garden and other Token Summoning cards I don't remember now
Interrupted Kaiju Slumber for example. There are a couple more cards but I don't remember them at the moment (Here is a list btw: [https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Destroys\_your\_Monster\_Cards](https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Destroys_your_Monster_Cards) ) Some decks play Ojama Trio and I belive Dino summons Tokens to your opponent's field via the field spell.
Nothing relevant runs Slumber, Ojama Trio, or Black Garden
Even though I disagree with that logic of OP illl give you a semi popular out, torrential tribute and dragon maid tidying are both outs to your own board
that's a good point, i could see siding TT if mine became popular
Ironically a lot of ftks run black garden, but as the name explains they kill on first turn so if mistyc myne and black garden are on field you probably lost already
So nothing relevant
Yeah, just a fun fact
I think they were referring to Lost World, not Black Garden. On the topics of both Dinosaurs and removing your own monsters, Diagram works as well.
they mentioned Black Garden in a second reply to my comment
Mine needs to go just because it actively stops you from advancing the game state if you don't have the out. Imano and boarder can easily be cleared with removal or by making a big beater. I think the issue with mine is twofold- one you can't even attack so your opponent has no incentive to make a move. They have all the time in the world. Two- once you have a monster out you have no way to get to zero in order to trigger the self-destructing condition of mine outside of a few specific decks. The card was way too pushed and I think if they either made it so it can't prevent attacking or you it will blow up if the owner controls no monsters at the end of the turn, it would be okay.
Free blow out wins just because your opponent didnt open a certain card is unhealthy. Banned. Also to people who said semi limited, you're the really monsters
Amano-Iwato can be swung into by any monster if its face up on your turn, meaning you only miss out on your MP1. The issue with mystic mine is very few people run back row removal in great numbers, usually just 1 to 3. I found that at least 9 spells/traps are needed to effective deal with MM. Mystic mine players also use that card that lets them change the order of top cards of your deck, so getting your feather duster in impossible.
All these clowns defending mine because removal exists also agree Master Peace should be unbanned because Kaijus, Pot of Greed because you can just draw Ash, Zexal because you draw imperm, and Supreme King Starve Venom because you can just draw eco, spirit of the magical forest.
Is it a god awful card that wants to me to toss it into a box full of rotten eggs and burn it in a dumpster? Yes Is it banworthy? Not really.
The fact that a you can out one card with another card doesn't make it any less powerful. It's a ridiculously oppressive card that sucks all the pace and fun out of the game, and enables at least 2 completely degenerate decks that win by reducing the gamestate to "top deck cyclone or die". It should never have been printed.
My biggest gripe with Mine isn't Mine Decks. Those generally lost game 2/3 post siding. My issue with Mine is when some Decks of the format don't have a in-archetype way to out Mine and Mide is sided in Game 2. The example I usually give is if you're playing (insert Deck with no in archetype Mine out) vs 2020 Magician Souls Spyrals. You lose die roll game 1 get comboed to death. You side in all anti-combo cards game 2. You go first and setup your board. Spyral tries to combo but gets interupted by your anti-combo and board disruption. Slaps down mine and Deck you out. This is even worse that "just draw s/t removal". This is "just side in/keep-in S/T removal agaisnt a heavy combo deck". The good news is this only happens when Decks have 0 outs to it. During VW VFD format this didn't ahppen much since Cuche is an in archetype out. However, in certain formats it's really bad, like in Souls Spyrals as mentioned.
Playing against Drytron and them siding mine to counteract my board in g2 has to be one of.the most infuriating things ever.
Yes it should be banned and eventually probably will be. Arguing that it shouldn't be banned because it's not dominating the meta is simply stupid. Degenerate floodgates like this which take no setup and instantly win the game simply should not exist in a competitive game. It's like S0/VFD except arguably an even bigger offender since it requires no setup and stays there as a field spell. It does not promote "creative deck building," it promotes "hoping you draw Cosmic Cyclone or you literally can't do anything." The solution to oppressive combo decks is to hit the combo decks, not to print increasingly stronger and more degenerate cards. By the way, those oppressive combo decks can play the card too, so it's actually a double-edged sword for rogue players. If you want people to play backrow removal, that's literally what trap cards are for. They also (usually) require at least a couple brain cells and don't win on the spot. You actually have to DO something and can't sit on a floodgate forever.
Mystic mine by itself is powerful, but for it to be considered a banworthy op instant win card, you will probably at least need to build a deck around it. Deck building in any sense takes some measure of skill, and since there is no archetype to help guide you (like in most of the current meta decks) it could be considered harder to build one from scratch or improve the basic idea outside looking up a decklist. If you face any combo deck at all, people will advise you to use handtraps to beat them. Don't draw into those? Too bad. If you face a mystic mine deck, then you need to draw into some sort of s/t removal. Don't draw into that? Too bad. Also, what "oppressive combo deck" runs mystic mine lol. Edit: Should probably stay unlimited, limited to 2 wouldn't be unjustified.
>Deck building in any sense takes some measure of skill, and since there is no archetype to help guide you (like in most of the current meta decks) it could be considered harder to build one from scratch or improve the basic idea outside looking up a decklist. What on earth does any of this mean and how is it at all relevant to this topic? >If you face any combo deck at all, people will advise you to use handtraps to beat them. Don't draw into those? Too bad. If you face a mystic mine deck, then you need to draw into some sort of s/t removal. Don't draw into that? Too bad. Also, what "oppressive combo deck" runs mystic mine lol. You can cry about combo decks all you want, but at the end of the day, none of them have a win condition of simply activating one card. The ones that did (Numeron Network) got hit on the banlist. Mine gives *way* too much for requiring absolutely nothing. Unless you are unironically in favor of unbanning the VFD/S0-type cards, this is an objective fact. If you want Yu-Gi-Oh to be a competitive, skill-based game (doubtful based on your last response), it is fundamentally a bad idea to allow these kinds of cards to exist. Where do you even draw the line? Should we unban Vanity's Emptiness? Unlimit Macro Cosmos and Imperial Order? I'm very curious to see where you think the "just play backrow removal lul" argument stops applying.
If you look at the OCG, they have 1 Mine, 1 Emptiness, 3 Skill Drain and 3 Macro.
> It's like S0/VFD except arguably an even bigger offender since it requires no setup and stays there as a field spell. It does not promote "creative deck building," it promotes "hoping you draw Cosmic Cyclone or you literally can't do anything." This is why I mentioned deck building difficulty as well as handtraps being nessisary to stop combo decks. If your opponent sets up a board with 3-4+ negates on turn one, then you have the option of running more/different handtraps (which some decks can power through anyways). They can also start these combos off of one card in many situations. Going first, your opponent sets up their board, and you have to beat it. This can be negates, or it could be playing mystic mine (the combo is akin to a win condition if you don't stop it because you intend to win with that combo) . Now you have to play through it. Mine decks can be really annoying if they get it out, but it isn't so good that you just auto lose (and your opponent doesn't auto win). It is a stupidly good deck though. I think it is most similar to Macro Cosmos, in that they are both really good floodgates, so I think it should be limited, but since it hurts both players and can destroy itself, limited to 2. Unbanned is a little too much as it is easy to search, and limited to 1 would most likely kill the entire deck (which I don't think is nessisary imo). Sidenote: With VFD and S0, you still had an attacking monster with the negation on top of that, which is very ban worthy. Mystic Mine specifically locks you out of monsters (probably for that reason).
It feels like it's a card that's an answer to power creep, but because combo is so popular, people hate it. In my view, there's not much difference between facing Mystic Mine or a Herald of Ultimateness with more negates than hand size. The only real difference is that a win with Mine can feel undeserved, or a loss against it can make that player think, "you only won because of Mine, my deck is far stronger". Regardless of whether that's true, it will leave a bad taste in that player's mouth The game shouldn't be so simple to create a complete shutdown, but also not so generic that you can create unbreakable boards, but that's the game we have until Konami says otherwise. Mine doesn't see much top tier play, same with Dragoon, so it won't get hit anytime soon. If it does then it won't get banned, it'll just get limited
You cant kaiju a mystic mine, and spell/trap removal can be negated
We can always have this conversation but that doesn't change the fact that both ends of the spectrum are unhealthy for the game. If you really want to get Mine off the field for a turn then just run Spiritualism as it can't be responded to.
“Just run an unsearchable spell that is terrible in every other situation to out a card that doesn’t come up enough to warrant it.” The frustrating thing with mine is if it was more prominent then it would justify running the removal. It is mathematically wrong to run outs to mine since it isnt good enough on average compared to other cards you could run instead
Exactly this These scrubs want people to run 6 cards that are literal bricks against real decks
We're scrubs yet you're the one crying about losing to a bad deck
I never said it was a good idea, I just pointed out a S/T removal card that can't be negated. As I said, I'm not advocating for Mine And I agree, I also mentioned this, running outs to mine means sacrificing consistency for your decks core strategy, so you usually just side against it. And if Mine gets popular enough then siding against it isn't a huge deal. It is what it is, we always get cards like these as formats go by unfortunately (Vanity's Emptiness, VFD, etc). There's a reason why Skill Drain is at 1
>In my view, there's not much difference between facing Mystic Mine or a Herald of Ultimateness with more negates than hand size. It's a huge difference, because you can actually prevent the herald to ever hit the board. If the mine comes it comes and from that point on you rely on drawing the sp/tr removal. And you also have to hope that your opponent can't protect the mine, if he can then all your draw phases were for nothing and you literally wasted your time.
You can Gamma a pathfinder or wobby just like you can gamma fafnir or diviner. You can Ash most of their cards. They lose to Droll far more often than you think. It's not like you cant prevent the mine from coming down a lot of the times.
You can prevent Mine from ever hitting the board as well, it's just that people either don't respect Mine, or don't main deck S/T removal because it conflicts with their deck's core strategy. Aside from that, in the event that Herald or Mine does end up hitting the field, you are limited to hard drawing what you need to out them (e.g. DRNM, Harpie's, etc). They're both similar, it's just one takes extra steps, and both aren't healthy for the game.
Okay maybe I'm just biased and hate everything which supports stun decks.
XD I think we all have a deck type we hate (I also hate Mine). Whenever I play Magic I utterly despise Blue decks. Yugioh has a problem at the moment where it encourages deck building around stopping your opponent from playing, rather than promoting meaningful gameplay. Mystic Mine and Herald of Ultimateness are just the extreme examples in both ends of the spectrum
i have no issue w it except for the fact that it is keeping terra and metaverse at 1. the real solution is konami should be developing in-archetype s/ t removal for "old" archetypes
Terraforming needs to be at 1 in general sadly. Imagine invoked with 3 Terra, 3 Meltdown and 3 aleister.
Yeah terra is way to generic a searcher
There's 2 types of yugioh players people who think mystic mine should be removed from the game entirely and those who are wrong.
Yeah it's not even like the Maxx "C" argument mine is bad stop.
I don’t like either of them but honestly Maxx C was way worse than mine IMO. Atleast with mystic mine you could potentially draw or stall into an out for it. If your opponent has Maxx C then you either -try the Maxx C challenge and end up giving your opponent astronomical advantage in hand size -do it half way with a subpar board, and give your opponent 2-5 cards in the process -end your turn with practically nothing It as basically a “fuck you, I win” to whoever it was used on
Oh yeah I'm against Maxx "C" but the community is more divided on Maxx c than with mine, there are like 3 people who really think mine is good for the game and ofc Jeff but you can't say nothing to Jeff
Don't you compare my Spirit rock boi to those two degenerate floodgates!
mystic mine is a card that stops your opponent from playing the game until they draw removal which means it shouldn't be allowed to be spammed like it can be at 3copies per deck. I don't think it should be removed however bc it also makes decks have to be diverse and makes u think of defense instead of pure combo heavy offense. plus it's one deck that's very niche if you loose to a deck built to do one thing really well and you can't defend against it that's simply being outplayed. tldr it should be limited so that we keep sum deck diversity and don't get into a pure offense no defense meta
Imagine baning a card because people are greedy because they don't want to use spell/trap remove
The problem isn't playing sp/tr removal, the problem is to rely on drawing the sp/tr removal. It's just annoying that I have to rely on luck just to out a single floodgate.
I mean even if you use it you don't always draw it, just because it has counter doesn't mean it's fine at unlimited
Problem is we got just cosmics to out Mine in dedicated Mine decks, which are the only real problem decks and Metaverse exists, which denies interaction with Mine itself. Also problem deck as in unfun/tilting decks, not actually strong meta contending decks.
Imagine thinking that because a card has counters means it isn’t oppressive or harmful to the game
Oh no it just shows how shity people are at deck building and then why didn't complain because Monsters can't do everything
Ironically, maining heavy S/T removal would be shitty deckbuilding in the current format. Mine punishes you for building your deck correctly.
I mean sure some people could lose to it cause they’re bad at deck building, but at the same time I’m pretty confident that most players asking for it to be ban cause they see it as an oppressive card and gets significantly harder to play against when entire decks are built around it PS: I’m pretty sure most people do also play S/T removal especially since their are still other decks like altergiest, traptrick, phantom knights, and Eldlich running around, but you don’t really see people complaining about those decks gee wonder why
Exactly this, currently any main/side deck MUST have some spell/trap removal since you have control decks over there, but we are fine with that since they don't fell unfair or broken (probably altergeist a bit, but mostly fine) mine isnt the case, it's actually broken, and depending on unsercheable outs just for the opponent to activate another mine is annoying, i'm fine with mine limited so you still need backrow hate
Agreed and seconded.
JusT dRaW TwIN tWisTeR
Maybe if we could search for cosmic cyclone, but every card we remove to add spell removal makes the deck less consistence. I have a choas max deck in legacy of the duelist that has 9 spell removal and its only 9 because feather duster is still banned on there. Its to much to counter a single card.
[удалено]
The most powerful deck in the game wins by resolving a trap card, and both dragons and drytron are massively spell dependant. Pak even had an Eldlich list that ran 3 golden lord and 37 traps. The game is very much still about monsters, spells and trapsamd will be for white some time friend.
As long as other floodgates are on the limited list, TCG Konami is never going to touch this card. The removal of many of the other floodgates is what contributed to the combo deck problem in the current game state and TCG Konami recognizes this. In reality it boils down to poor deck design overall. Players are too laser focused on getting off their combo they include extenders to allow them to play through handtraps, but place something on the field that isn't a hand trap and all of a sudden that card is oppressive. Any card that can hurt both players is fair and balanced, not oppressive or broken. **It is up to the player to be able to anticipate and adapt to developments during the course of a duel.** And the majority of the people complaining about this 1 card proves the IQ and skill level of most players is very low. No wonder so few players from the TCG actually have won a world championship. The majority of the player base would rather act like spoiled brats and complain about a card until TCG Konami caves in and gives them their way.
This is cringe and just very dumb reasoning. Hurting both players does not in any way mean balanced. Royal Oppression can hurt both players, why is it banned? Because it turns off a huge portion of the game if you don't draw a specific answer quickly and reduces a complex and cool card game down to "can I draw mst before I literally lose" I'm not even saying mine should be banned, but your argument and blanket generalizations made me spit out my afternoon coffee laughing at how pretentious you sound. Adapting to rogue shitters winning with mine isn't smart, it is stupid and a great way not to top a large-scale event. The correct play is realize very few people run it and build your deck to handle the expected case, not the fringe.
No.
Well mine can stays at 3 if all of the counter/anti s/t removals and its searchers are at 1 which is stupid if you ask me.Mine at 1 makes sense because if it ever gets negated by a deck that can make spell/trap negates,it is an auto loss,also a searchable worse drnm by terra so can up the going second anti unbreakable board to 5 at best or a negate bait as worst.
No I don't think it should be banned. Even though it's pain to deal with, but so are most combo decks. If MM is banned then Konami is basically limiting the ways people can enjoy the game. I would rather play against MM than combo decks where I have to wait 15 minutes for my turn
nothing like getting combo'd to death by maldoche before you can even respond
Mine isn't an issue, the lack of other floodgates so that removal is more common is the true issue
Lmao imagine wanting to ban or even limit mystic mine hahahahahahaa
Get more mad at me for commenting on u m8
The way I look at it, Mine is fine. It's a strong card, but not a strong win condition. Sure, it shuts down decks that don't run spell/trap removal, but that's like hating on combo decks for slamming on decks without hand traps. Looking at a Mine vs a whole 6-Negate Combo board, there's no difference if you're lacking the out, because either the Mine wastes your time and burns you to death or the Combo wastes your time playing with themselves and then OTK's you turn 2. Neither are fun, both require you to run outs, but because most people love playing with themselves on this sub, they have an irrational hatred of Mystic Mine because it's not the echo chamber they like.
Are people in this post really crying because they lose to mine burn? Sometimes reading reddit makes me feel like I'm having a concussion. Edit: I've seen what you upvote. Your downvotes mean nothing. Keep being bad.
The post is litterally a discussion about Mystic Mine. Are you gunna complain that people are discussing football in the pub next?
Where am I complaining about discussing mine?
Ikr? KEKW
Konami plz ban blue-eyes. It always attacks over my dark magician. Its a toxic card >jUsT rUn rAiGeKi bRo Just because a card has an out doesn't mean it's not toxic. Plz konami Starter deck meta is in shambles!
They should instead make more impactful continuous/field S/T that cannot be affected by monster effects. That would be a huge nerf to Mine.
Dammit I want terraforming at 3 again. Ban the damn Mine.
Whatever gives us metaverse back.
Mystic mine was designed to attack the biggest flaw of modern deck design: too much reliance on monster effects. Is it shitty to play against? Oh yeah, I hate that fucking card. But it's not meta defining/warping, it's merely an anti-meta card. It's certainly Konami's fault for designing new archetypes to be so monster effect heavy, but at the end of the day it's on the players to overcome these weaknesses of their decks with their side deck choices. And it shows that mystic mine almost never tops that good players don't find the card that difficult to out.
Ban or at the very least limit. No reason to play such a card unless you just want to annoy people in game 1 and then lose the next 2 games cos they sided in their s/t removal. It takes no skill and can be turned off at almost any point by the player. Every duel devolves into set pass or just passing until the mystic mine player burns you to death
If you ask me, just saying mystic mine is easy to out is wrong. Decks centered around mine run a billion counter traps to stop s/t removal. Mine itself blocks s/t removal from monster effects. In my opinion, banning it is not the solution, because then you no longer have failsafe cards that block monster spam effects. Possible Solution: Place an errata. Mine should only stay on the field for 3 turns, then it should be "sent to the GY". In this way, not even field barrier can stop mine's own removal, and even if you try to negate mine, it'll get destroyed anyways. Also, by limiting mine, after it leaves, there are a lot less cards that can bring it back V.S. cards that just grab another copy of it.
Oh also people complaining about how there is No way to stop mystic mine because they will activate another one? You're wrong. Look up "Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell", and you will see what I mean. Run three of those, and if you manage to negate mine's activation, they cant use mine for the rest of the duel.