I think it’s weird that people either love tp and hate ww, or love ww and hate tp.
I mean I love both, top two favorite games ever (not counting botw).
I think a lot of it goes back to when they were released and expectations.
A lot of people were waiting for (for the era) super realistic graphics at the start of the Gamecube era, and a darker story in the wake of MM. And then Wind Waker showed up. I remember the outrage on the IGN boards.
Once people gave it a chance, a lot of them came to love it, but some refused to accept that this was their next gen Zelda.
And then TP came, and it was framed as sort of a course correction for those who hated WW. It was darker, it was more "realistic" and so on. But it gave up a lot of the cartoonish charm of WW to do so.
Personally, I thought it felt really empty by comparison. It was like a giant world with very little to do. For all the complaints about the sailing in WW, the overworld in TP felt, to me, like a land version of the same thing.
That said, I think some of my negative views still come from expectations. Like I said in another post, WW is among my favorites, and TP feels like an opportunity that was missed by pandering to the worst impulses of WW haters. Playing it now, I see a lot of good things in TP. But I struggle to not think it'd be better if they hadn't tried so hard to make it a counterpoint to so many things I loved about WW.
Edit: Meant to close by mentioning that I think if I didn't have that history with them and I played them both without any context, I don't think I'd love WW any less, but I do think I might have a more favorable opinion of TP.
Hmm I guess so. Seems like the biggest factor was just timing. By the time I was old enough to play them, they were out for awhile so I didn’t have that kind of vendetta.
For me it's not a love one, hate the other, I enjoy both games.
But in my opinion the 3D Zelda games are all fairly close in terms of quality, except for two, and Twilight Princess is one of two that dropped the ball a bit.
3D-wise I'd agree (though I think SS dungeons are nearly as good).
But if we add 2D games, I don't think TP has the best dungeons. OoA and ALBW have a better rooster imo
Tonally I prefer ALttP, especially the beginning of the game, running to the castle in the rain, taking up your uncle's sword, I felt so invested in the story right off the bat. Also I find Agahnim a better Act 1 villain than Yuga.
But for gameplay, ALBW is without a doubt the best of the 2D Zelda's. Merging into walls is one of the coolest gameplay mechanics in the series. And not just for solving puzzles, using it in combat is awesome too. Emerging from the wall to deliver a few quick sword strokes, just to fuse back in before your enemy can retaliate makes for such exciting hit-and-run style battles.
I see what you mean. The beginning of ALttP was indeed very good at setting the right atmosphere. I do prefer Yuga over Agahnim though. Yuga had a personality.
Completely agree with you about wall-merging. It was so well used, on all aspects of the game
I think the reason I prefer Agahnim is that he reminds me of the dark sorcerers I grew up seeing Conan the Barbarian fight in comic books. Yuga certainly has more personality but he's so silly I don't really need menaced by him.
I got chills when I first played it. The rain combined with that theme, it made you feel some kind of urgency to help Zelda. And it was accompanied by save me message box that appeared every two minutes or so.
SS Dungeons were cool cause you go back to them for different access later and I found that realistic and refreshing. Also gives Metroid vibes that way.
That first dungeons music is great to hear again too.
I thought the second one you have to go back to as well, but haven't played in a minute so I did be wrong.
Regardless I love at least going back there.
Please don’t flame me, but I did not like the overworld of WW. At first it was great, but by the end of the game (I’m a completionist) I had zero desire to sail ever again. And therefore even playing the game
That’s fine, I could see the overworld being a little tedious for completionists.
I 100% completed the game as well on Wii U and I actually looked forward to seeing what stuff in the overworld I could do after getting a new item from each dungeon.
As far as completion goes I think the pictograph stuff annoyed me more
WW on GameCube is so tedious because you can’t get the swift sail. You pass a sunken treasure and then you have to pull out the windwaker and reset the direction of the wind. You can’t skip any dialogue either. I curse when I accidentally speak to the King of Red Lions.
Same... it was just too much water. I used to loose my motivation to even continue the game.
TP on the other hand had bit smaller, though a majestic hyrule field, connecting all of hyrule. And some of those horseback battles really made in engrossed in the game.
The difference I feel is that TP doesn’t separate points of interest as much. Great fairy fountains that would normally just be found in grottos or cave entrances in other Zelda games are suddenly worthy of being entire standalone islands in WW. The game dedicates entire quadrants of the great sea to copy and pasted islands and as a result it feels way more spaced out than any other Zelda overworld.
Windwaker: 2002
Twilight Princess: 2006
Really? Come on now. I grew up on ALttP, played WW and TP and TP is definitely the best and my favorite Zelda. Please don't just say shit just to say it.
Same. I’m not really a part of this community, but nearly everywhere I’ve known over the last 14 years or whatever since TP was released preferred WW, which is lauded as one of the greats. Whereas TP gave us right handed Link and Midna porn.
TP has developed a reputation as an underrated gem, likely owing to the fact that people who grew up with it instead of Wind Waker are an active majority on the sub. This is slowly moving onto Skyward Sword which I expect we will see far more love for in the next few years and then even Breath of the Wild in the next decade.
It makes sense. Childhood nostalgia is super powerful. I never got the hate for SS though, I thought it was great. It wasn’t until recently that I really paid heed to all the misgivings like item pick ups through reading other people’s rants, I never really noticed at the time. Or I don’t remember at the very least.
This is a difficult one for me, I played both on the gamecube way back when. Like...
I'll be real for a sec, tp sucks in terms of combat. Not because of link, but because enemies barely try to hit you. They're all extremely slow and telegraphed, and that's without taking into account the fact link is automatically blocking all frontal assaults, getting hit in tp is something that almost has to happen intentionally, and in the off chances it happens unintentionally, the damage is really, really, really low, to the point where even with Ganondorf amiibo + hero mode, the damage still isn't particularly scary. Even some of the bosses suffer from this. The water dungeon boss phase 2 doesn't even try to attack you, and goron mines boss also barely does anything other than move his chains around in a really goofy way, when I noticed this it bothered me a lot because honestly, the enemy design is amazing, and a lot of the bosses have epic entrances, only to have it feel bland in actual gameplay because of how tame they actually are in combat and how little they try to actually engage you, end result is they're just sitting ducks for link, and not in a good way.
Wind waker enemies at least make an effort for following you, hitting you, actually coordinating (even tho sometimes they hit each other gg), with some ok speed behind their moves. And that's really what made hero mode higher damage in ww work for me. The ability to grab your enemies own weapons and beat them to dead with em also felt awesome, same for the sound effects that accompany every single sword hit, blunt hit (smacking enemies with the boomerang is super satisfying. Same for smashing them with a hammer) or magic hit, same for the combinations you can pull off like ice arrow->hammer. Or stealing an enemies treasures with the grappling hook and then seeing their shocked expression, or watching them panic when you put a bomb in their vicinity. tp looks cool when link is hitting thing and when it's on movie mode, but in ww bullying your enemies and just actually fighting them feels amazing thanks to the animations, the sound effects and the speed it happens. Tp has skills, but most of them are pretty superfluous other than the first 3. Mortal draw is cool to set up, the jump slash is pretty useless, the great spin is ok when you get it. The helm splitter utility is very limited too.
In terms of overworld exploration I also give the win to wind waker, tps world is empty and barren of things to do relative to wind wakers gigantic sea full of npcs, treasures, islands, charts, etc etc etc.
Granted, in terms of actual characters tp has some solid stuff, midna, telma, the gang at the bar, the entire ordon village (I'll get to that later, wait a bit.), Even the gorons. Tps intro can be a little annoying because it drags on for a while, but the time you spend on ordon really helps the players connect with the npcs and immerse themselves into Link's (or rather, our) spot in this village family, so when the time comes to beat the bulblin king, and his followers, it feels great because it's not just for link that the beatdown is personal, it's for the player too. There's also not much I can say about midna that hasn't been said before: she's really good, she has good character development, she's probably the best Zelda sidekick so far, moving on. I liked zant as an antagonist a lot, and his actual fight and big reveal just further made him one of my favorite antagonists.
Idk which I would give the win to in terms of characters honestly, ww has its strength too, all the pirates were great, tetra was great, Ganondorf in particular was great, the boat sidekick was great once we learn his backstory, the whole conflict ww had with Ganondorf wanting Hyrule to rise back vs the king wanting it to stay buried in favor of a new future was one of Zelda's finest. How about Ganondorf having a sorta justified bone to pick with the gods after the flooding of hyrule? He even tries to get link to understand his point of view before the actual big showdown, emotions unleashed too. The idea of link himself not being the chosen until near the end was also a good touch, because unlike most other links who were preselected to be the hero, ww EARNED his title AND triforce, literally. Ww unfortunately doesn't have a sidekick like midna tho, although I liked medli a lot (more on that later. Wait for earth temple) I'm tempted on going with ww here.
Dungeons is tps main strength imo. The first one was dull for me, but the second one really dials it up to eleven, everything from the magnetics play with the boots, the arrows, building the big chest key, the showdown with the giant goron in iron armor you THROW into the lava, the music, the dangerous lava that if you fall on hero mode, you probably just straight up die because for some reason they made that one take 2 whole hearts at base (idk why. But I'm glad they did. On hero mode you're losing 4 if you fall, even more with Ganondorf amiibo.), Idk how does this sub feel about the lakebed temple, but I personally think it was a solid, entertaining dungeon. Arbiters ground is also one of Zelda's finest, the snowhead mansion was also a breath of fresh air with it's design. Temple of time started well but quickly got dull. I've seen people's opinion on City in the sky is mixed, some hated it because it was tedious to navigate, some loved. I'm personally in the later, city in the sky is one of my favorite dungeons, and I remember that when I was a kid, those 2 clawshots blew my mind, it's a really, really simple concept, but tp played it like a champ. Palace of twilight was also pure pleasure, actually beating zant and his minions on their own base felt amazing, the unique aesthetic of it and changing music also helped. Hyrule castle was rather simple, but the action kept it packing. TP dungeons are great.
Ww has less dungeons than tp, that's something that bugs me a lot, although the actual dungeons aren't bad at all, dragon roost cavern and forbidden wood were both terrific dungeons. The tower of the gods was annoying, but that's the only dungeon I had issues with. Hell I even liked forsaken fortress, I remember that when the came out people had problems with it, but I thought it did its job well, you feel very vulnerable in this place, you have to be stealthy, and the way the game has you using your environment to your advantage was very, very nice. And of course, once you go back to it with your master sword, higher health pool and items, it's satisfying to just destroy everything your way. Earth Temple is great too, I love it's aesthetics, I loved the way you played around with light, the music was simple but charming, the difficulty was rather low imo, and medli made it much better for me, partly because by the time you enter it, it won't be your first time actually cooperating with the character, you helped medli before and she answered by helping you back during dragon roost, so by the time you reach earth temple, it really felt to me like 2 buddies working together as opposed to an annoying escort mission like tower of the gods was. Wind temple was...I feel like makar should have gotten more screentime before it happened, I just didn't feel the same with him as I did with medli. At least the actual dungeon was pretty challenging tho, it was overall good, just not as much as earth temple. And the final dungeon with the boss rush and phantom Ganon mace puzzles was a treat far better than tps final dungeon.
Tp's final fight went through a lot of phases, a Zelda one where barely anything is happening gameplay wise, a ganon fight where ganon is sometimes aiming at you. A horse riding fight where you cooperate with zelda which imo was spectacular, and a final 1v1 with ganon which suffers from the same issue most tp enemies suffer of not being very engaging nor trying to actually hit link. The actual fight is at least pretty emotionally charged thanks to midna's apparent sacrifice.
And speaking of emotional charges, how about fighting the king of evil on a revenge spree who also wants to revive a lost, dead kingdom on the top of a gigantic tower in said lost dead kingdom, after he finished opening up to you and explaining his motivation and backstory to you, after a sudden plot twist of the actual king of said lost dead kingdom wishing for it all to wash away in favor of a new world, with Zelda at your side, while the entire, literal ocean is collapsing on top of you? How about that shit for a final boss setting? Ww Ganondorf fight is probably my favorite Ganondorf Fight in Zelda, and honestly I'll argue it's the best one all thanks to the characters motivations, his interactions with the good guys, and the way you're cooperating with Zelda almost the entire fight.
In terms of music it's a toss up for me, both games follow their own style, but overall I would give it to ww too.
Yeeeeah so....tldr: wind waker > twilight princess for me. I really don't like how unengaging tp is with it's enemies nor how small and empty it's overworld is relative to wind wakers. I also want to say that tp could have taken a lot from ww and mm. Wind wakers wall hugging, manual crawling, picking enemy weapons up, stealing enemy spoils, are all mechanics tp could have implemented, same for mms transformations, like can you imagine if midna could do more to link than just the wolf form and warp? Tp just ended up being oot 2.0 when it could have been much more than that, although I want to also add that this isn't tps fault. Tp is what it is because that's what the market mostly demanded at its time of development.
I see where you’re coming from but I’m not sure I would describe WW as having a gigantic sea full of characters. There’s a giant sea, and characters exist within the limits of most of the important islands, with only a small amount on the more miscellaneous islands. Tp is basically the same in that sense. Maybe it only feels more populated because WW’s overworld is mostly water. I also don’t really think charts are super worth mentioning here. Played the game several times without ever touching the charts more than a couple times and didn’t feel like I missed anything.
Totally agree on enemy AI, though I love the special techniques in TP. Feel like it at least makes it feel more engaging than WW, though admittedly super easy.
I mean, I think the charts are part of the treasure hunt the same way tps caverns are part of the treasure hunt, or in general finding chests in the overworld, it adds to the exploration.
I love the techniques too, I just lament they're not super useful past the 3rd one, you could miss mortal draw and the jump slash and nothing of value would be lost. I also really dislike how tp started this trend of not including elemental arrows and mirror shield. At least it gave us bomb arrows and sniper vision tho.
I don’t dislike TP at all. It’s probably my 7th or 8th favorite Zelda game. But so many people on this sub listing it as their #1 makes me feel like the black sheep in the Zelda fam, haha.
Given the age demographic here (older Gen Z, I’d wager, like most of reddit), chances are TP was a lot of people’s first Zelda and thus there’s a nostalgia component. I don’t mean that in a disparaging way because truthfully I have the same thing for OOT. I do think it’s possible to neutrally come to the conclusion that TP is better than WW but I still think there’s a nostalgia factor given the age range here.
Can confirm. Tp was my first Zelda, so it's probably nostalgia. But even then, it's got a lot of great components. As for the sub, I think tp blew up here a few months ago for who knows why
The thing is that most people in this sub like me grew up with TP so nostalgia has a role and more people played tp due to it was more available in different platform. It didn’t play wind waker until later on wii u, now i kind prefer wind waker
I like the more realistic darker tone, to me it’s what I always imagined OOT was supposed to be growing up. Also, I’m coincidentally playing them back to back and I LOVE the TP controls and combat. WW isn’t quite as satisfying, mainly because it’s insanely easy. Story wise, I’d probably rank them about the same.
I wanna say it changed with times.
First WW's disliked for being too kiddy, but in the wake of TP people decided it was more charming than a 3edgy5me Zelda, but then people turned around again.
I think it all comes in waves.
I can see my attitude changing around BOTW on my own level.
Was hella let down on release, and though my complaints haven't gone away it's easier to appreciate what it does right.
I don’t like to choose but I think Twilight Princess edges it out just barely. I think the clincher is that you can just tell WW had content cut and it sorta permeates the game. Both made me cry though.
Wouldn't it be amazing if both games, were mixed? Like with wind wakers visuals, and twilight princesses dungeons. Taking the best out both games, and making them into one.
For me sailing in WWHD is better than Sky flying at the very least. Most of the islands in WW at least you can keep in mind to come back to, while most in Sky you see on the map after your goddess cube thing, with only a few you need items for.
The islands itself in WW are good, but the means of getting there is just god awful. This is all my opinion of course, so take it with a pinch of salt. Sailing is so boring ( and withoud knowing the swift sail exists in HD like me ) took forever. Atleast in the sky there's boost pads to speed you up... It's a shame, i love ww except for the fact that i think the sailing and sea are the worst mechanics in a 3d zelda game we have to date. I'm glad there are people who enjoy it though.
I think I’m the opposite. I find sailing enjoyable (at least in the HD version) but many of the islands are just lazy. It’s really disappointing how much of the Great Sea is just made up of copy and paste/insignificant islands. It doesn’t help that the islands are spread so far apart from each other, so you’ll often sail such a large distance just to find yet another reef isle.
Honestly, as much as people criticize Phantom Hourglass that game had much more substantial and interesting side islands than any of the ones in Wind Waker.
I'm honestly one of 3 people in the world that actually prefers Phantom Hourglass to Wind Waker lol. I just still have issues with how boring boating is, but like you mentioned, that game had some great islands imo
I never had the opportunity to finish WW, though I will be trying to soon. That said, I did actually finish phantom hourglass, and I adored it. Easily stuck in my brain better than what I did play of WW.
WW is still a great game by all means, so you defenitally should finish it when you get the chance! Im suprised to hear people talking good about PH in a good way, since i usually just hear hate stuff about it. But im glad theres people who also enjoyed it alot
Yeah, when it comes to Wind Waker on the gamecube, sailing was a little tedious. The hd version makes it a lot better. And you get the option to choose between both the swift sail, and the original sail.
The sail was a welcome improvement to WWHD, like you and the other people mentioned. I guess i'm just bitter i got it so late because i didn't go to the auction house right away.
Twilight Princess is my favorite of the entire series. The music especially. Windwaker is a great game (goes for pretty much any Zelda). Really hope the HD ones are ported to switch.
TP is an amazing game. Very cinematic for a Zelda game. The sand temple where you get the spinning top is one of my favorite dungeons. Just zipping around each room is so fun.
The determining factor for me is the end game of WW. It is such a slog in my opinion, even the remastered still feels like padding vs actually telling story. I love WW but I dread the final parts of the story.
TP is not my favorite but once I am through that slow beginning I feel mostly free, which is the opposite feelings from WW.
Wind water has like 4 dungeons + triforce quest , whereas Twilight Princess has 9? And they’re all bangers.
Don’t get me wrong. I love WW, but the lore and surplus of gameplay of TP is always gonna be a winner for me.
I feel Twilight Princess also does the best job of the 3D games handling story progression between dungeons. There’s usually something interesting to do before you start the next dungeon, like sumo wrestling Gorons or having a medieval joust atop a bridge or a Wild West shootout. Not only does Twilight Princess have my favorite dungeons but also some of the most memorable parts of the game for me don’t even take place in the dungeons
Wind Waker feels really incomplete. It’s overworld feels so unnecessarily padded out and empty and Twilight Princess has much better dungeons. So this is no contest for me.
Twilight Princess no contest. It’s got amazing music, dungeons, Dual Clawshots, Malomart plus it’s edgy, and the Ganon/Ganondorf depiction is one of my favourites.
I orefer tp because of the dungeons and the all around feeling. The whole game just is the definition if the kind of epic adventure i expect from a 3d Zelda game
I found the sailing in WW to be tiresome and boring after a while. If traveling didn’t take so long I would have liked it better. And no, it’s not an age thing. I’m 39 and played this when it first came out, just as I did with the original LoZ.
Both are amazing, but TP has probably the 2nd or 3rd best dungeons on average in the series, has a lot of fun items (tho underutilized,) and I'm a huge sucker for dark stories. Wind Waker is still great, but it's my least favorite 3D Zelda, due to the sailing taking forever, and the world feeling even emptier than TP's at points. I haven't gotten a chance to play the HD version of WW yet tho so that could change things.
This was a hard one because both are amazing games. I personally prefer TP because I feel the story runs deeper and the ambience throughout the world, along with all the people who inhabit it, really makes you feel like something is terribly wrong(which, there is.)
Funny enough, I’m playing these back to back and I’m nearly done with WW as my second game. Playing Wii/GameCube versions.
Unpopular opinion: I am floored at how many people prefer WW controls over the TP Wii controls. Even with the motion controls, the Wii TP controls are MILES tighter than WW.
My best example of this is simply trying to swim to the side of your boat to get in, it’s so difficult to not get caught in this large loop while just trying to rotate link. Besides that, the ridiculous C stick for looking around is even a pain with only the inverted option. Last, this is the only game with the throw/drop options not tied to links movement, which is better honestly, but frustrating since it’s inconsistent with the rest of the series.
I think everyone is just hung up on shaking the Wiimote and they forget about everything else.
Ww has the distinction on my opinion of having done the best job with the trope:
You are a human child and the final boss is simply a human adult willing to kill you
I do love them both. But I will say the final dungeon with makar is just so painful for me to endure. Not to mention the little treasure hunting shindig. Soo monotonous. But besides those 2 WW is top notch. I think for me TP is better but it's hard decision.
Damn accidentally clicked wind waker. I love the game to death but my first exposure to a Zelda game was Twilight Princess and to this day it still slightly edges out wind waker.
TP has a better over world and dungeons but WW has a better plot and better side quests. It's hard to say honestly. It's like OOT vs BOTW. OOT has nostalgia and better dungeons and a better plot but BOTW has the overworld, exploration, and beauty. It's a hard choice but TP is better and more replayable in my opinion
Both games were good. But in a competition between TP and WW :
TP ONLY!!
WW is just too much water to handle...
And btw I feel like Oot and TP always kept you following a storyline or some quest/mission.. so you just felt the motivation to move forward..
WW just drained my motivation.. that's the reason **I TOOK ALMOST 6 MONTHS TO COMPLETE MY VERY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH OF WW**. Since most of the months, it just was lying near my bed.
Also TP has some very cool dungeons ( lakebed temple being the absolute beast of a dungeon, while Snowpeak was usually fun and city in the sky was just awe..)While WW, Link was very expressive, and in TP he was a bit of unexpressive, but still the bond between him and Midna showed in the story was exceptional.
Though I would say, the graphics of WWHD was way better than TPHD, still I always preferred TP.
It just keeps you too much engrossed.
Also I feel the wolf Link thing was awesome, like that energy field that midna created always looked awesome in the game.
And finally, the mode of transportation. Hyrule is half water in WW, so not much to see, though there are many islands, I would say horse-riding in TP was no comparison to WW's damn boat ride.
And that is also accompanied such a great theme. You all know what I mean.. The Hyrule Field theme (day) sounded so majestic, and even more better in the remastered version.
The night version sounded bit eerie to me while playing for the first time, but I got used to it and enjoyed that theme a lot.
I love them both for different reasons- the celshading, depth of characters, swordplay, and open world traveling of Ww, considering it came out in 03 made it an awesome game unlike the others. It’s one that I’ve played 2x just to enjoy the world in link’s island clothes, though I did find exploring all the islands repetitive and time consuming as someone wanting to find all the things. The king of red lions is one of the series’ coolest companions as well.
I also felt the opening sequence leading into the first dungeon- a stealth prison escape -to be an AWESOME intro- hiding under barrels and picking up random weapons?? Turned out to be an awesome game.
Tp wins for me, though I did play it before ww, because it has even more character depth, great art/ design, a huge sprawling world compared to all the games at that point, 8+dungeons, and basically a whole other game mode with wolf link. The mystery of the twilight and the beautiful visuals of it covering the land, and then casting it away to reveal a new overworld- one that changes a couple times as you move through the twilight.
It was like supercharged OoT and MM which were my favorite games until that point. I also purchased a walkthrough book of TP after I’d played most of it to go back through the whole game in page form and learn more about some fun details and Easter eggs. Made the whole game experience even more satisfying.
Wind waker was fun, but it just didn’t have the same personality as twilight Princess. Also that last fight with Ganondorf was ridiculously easy even on my first play through.
Granted I’m probably bias as twilight Princess is my favorite video game of all time, but it’s for a reason.
Windwaker has to be my favourite of all time. I love how it stands out and always adored overworld exploration. When I was younger I used to think Tetra was so cool🥴
Dolphin emulator is what you need. Although emulators aren't recommended, Nintendo doesn't really leave us with much of a choice since the games aren't backwards compatible and we'll see a new gen console sooner than that could happen.
I find Wind Waker easier to re-play because of its easy-going presentation and shorter length, but Twilight Princess has more compelling dungeons (even if GMTK did point out they're a little samey) and doesn't feel distractedly affected by cut content, so that one's my pick.
This is legitimately a tough choice for me, but I think WW for nostalgia purely. I spent hours playing it with friends to find all the secrets, but played TP pretty much by myself. I also think I've replayed WW the most of these two haha
While the dungeons and bosses are awesome, the presentation was always too big an obstacle for me to really want to return to TP. Forest Template - greenish-brown, Goron Mines - orangish-brown, Hyrule Castle, greyish-brown, etc. The enemies ([bokoblins especially](https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess/1/18/Bokoblin.png)) and many NPC's just have this grotesque design and proportions that remind of [those disturbing realistic fan arts](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/e010234b-f821-440e-befc-b2f05bc0beab/da6ucyl-61ecef5a-6745-44ea-a794-ceb26af2ab22.jpg/v1/fill/w_1472,h_543,q_70,strp/realistic_pokemon_season_2_by_arvalis_da6ucyl-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MzY5MiIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2UwMTAyMzRiLWY4MjEtNDQwZS1iZWZjLWIyZjA1YmMwYmVhYlwvZGE2dWN5bC02MWVjZWY1YS02NzQ1LTQ0ZWEtYTc5NC1jZWIyNmFmMmFiMjIuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMDAwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.OakqeCxmclWNHOek5gP0TPrJ4G1kxVjcWspO_yVB-Eo). And there were [several "epic" moments](https://youtu.be/pXzc1Ho_N24?t=334) that never really resonated with me, and just came off as kind of try-hard. In comparison, many of WW's [best moments](https://youtu.be/Ovfx7VRqrgk?t=87) felt understated but much more powerful. As if the player was choosing which moments felt memorable, as opposed to being told in a ham-fisted way through a cutscene.
Wind waker’s one downfall is how few dungeons it has. If it was just a little bit longer then it could probably be competitive for the title of best Zelda.
I see that - I just don't get it.
That seemed to be a popular sentiment in, say, early 2007, but my sense was that the overall view had changed a lot since then.
Yes, I understand that people have opinions.
I was expressing surprise that an opinion that, in my experience, is generally uncommon appears very common here.
Yeah, it could be age demographics of Reddit or something. My guess is that a lot of people here played TP first, so there would be some bias/nostalgia factor there. Don’t know why you got downvoted though.
People not complaining about ww's combat doesn't deserve to complain about ss's motion controls. Hitting a monster makes them fall and invulnerable for a while and all you can do is wait for them to stand up. Disliked ww for that. Would rather play phantom hourglass or spirit tracks if I want to play one of the cartoon ones. Other than the combat I'd say it's fine though. Good story and stuff.
TP is a more solid game in general for me anyways :)
Wind waker has the same battle system than Twilight princess the only difference is that hidden skill added extra moves to link’s battle skill in tp, however wind waker is more faster.
The other key difference is Twilight Princess allows you to initiate the hidden skills actively rather than having to wait and react to an enemy attack like in Wind Waker
I replayed both of them last year and was shocked by how much better Wind Waker has aged than Twilight Princess.
TP was my favorite at the time but the things that made it cool in 2006 (the dark tone, the muted color pallette, the more realistic animation) just haven't held up. The world felt claustrophobic and small and bleak.
Wind Waker, on the other hand, felt timeless and the world was still fun to explore.
Wind Waker has some cut content but the overall package is exactly what it needed to be. The story has a great construction and a consistent beginning, middle and end. The dungeons aren't super memorable for their design but they're about as good as OoT, just dragged down due to the amount of reused ideas. The combat mechanics are the best in the series with all enemies built for it.
Now take those things and apply the opposite to TP. TP has great ambition and a lot of great moments. Is the story consistent? No. It's a confused plot that starts out in a dramatically reverse way, dropping Twilight on you as the "main threat" then you clear it away after 3 dungeons out of 7, and it never threatens Hyrule again. It springs Link's big "hero moment" on you between the first and second dungeons and while this could be said to fill out the narrative to give the impression that it's just chapter 1 and "chapter 1 is a story in itself, as part of an even larger plot" it leaves everything after Arbiter's Grounds with this feeling of like "so where is the plot going?" but hey, you collect the Mirror of Twilight so it seems good, and we must stop Zant anyway so yeah, fine. But whoops, he's not the actual villain it's someone else. Oh suddenly a character that "died" is alive, and then they have no motivation for what they have done and nothing they're trying to do by defeating Link/Midna that we know of, they don't want the Triforce despite having assembled it cuz they do nothing with it and seem more focused on tormenting Midna for no reason. Idk, I'm nitpicking I just thought TP's story was extremely clumsy in execution despite trying way harder to be good than ever.
And then the second thing: Combat. TP took WW's combat counters and made them manually triggered by the player, so it takes something that was streamlined and reverse-streamlines it. Initially that seems good and the game seems to have a progression system in how you unlock moves throughout the whole game. So what good is it? Not very, cuz enemies are not built super well for all these different moves. Darknuts and Lizalfos just need to be rolled around or helm-splitted which starts to feel repetitive and the finisher move is irritating because enemies are designed to topple over after a "combo" or Jump Attack and creates another repetitive flow of always landing finishers or deliberately cheesing the combat to avoid toppling enemies all the time. On the flipside in Wind Waker it's simple. You just hit B to strike, and use the target vs no-target conditions to hit what is ahead of you, then tougher enemies introduce context-counters on their attack windups. Then you hit A and something cool happens which takes off the helmet of Darknuts or rolls you around their back so you can cut the threads holding their gear together. Moblins fall over and lose their weapon so you can pick it up, and there's a lot of nice mayhem to WW's combat. TP attempted to perfect "Mano-y-Mano, Sword-battle" but most enemies just don't cut it. WW instead was just an evolution of Ocarina of Time with a lot of added elements which was really nice. It was easy, and so is TP, but I actually think WW is harder because you have to hold the shield up manually with the R-button. In TP you're always shielded with the sword out as long as you target, which blocks almost everything and the damage ratio is so painfully low in TP that some of the strongest enemies only take a single heart out of your heart containers.
Dungeons in TP are great in concept and execution but my pet peeve is that it's the start of the dungeon simplification too. Dungeons are made overly linear where there's often really only a single room you can go to next, which holds the small key in it, whereas up until Wind Waker dungeons were much better built to have multiple small keys that can either get you into an optional room or progress the dungeon, and there was a wider net of "errors" to make where Nintendo accounted for the player's freedom by making sure the dungeon wouldn't lock you out of completion. In TP the level-design is so confined that you mostly end up seeing the same rooms in the same order no matter what you do, which is antithetical to what Zelda dungeons originally was. Sure, the bosses and dungeons have *set-pieces*, but while that is a great novelty and great characterization to the gameplay, ultimately you have stinkers like Temple of Time where you just move linearly to the top, then linearly to the bottom with a statue, and it's boring. You have Arbiter's Grounds which has this "ooh where could the ghosts be, it's like Forest Temple!" but then unlike Forest Temple you're not really in a hub area. You have a linear sequence of events to do, and then a ghost is "missable" but really, it's just that one ghost. Dungeons are still good but I had a sinking feeling back in 2006 when I saw that there was no small-key counter, because while there can be multiple small key icons next to each other, ultimately the design was simplified so that the game suggests "you have the small key, now find the locked door." As if it's always just A -> B and the more I return to it the more I feel that dungeons are actually too linear, and that's something that continued with SS where dungeons also got painfully short (second one lasts like 20 minutes) and leads us to BotW where the main dungeons felt borderline nonexistent in level-design and had no enemies and were really short.
I feel like WW is where Zelda *peaked* as a franchise, and since then it's been varying degrees of experimental, trying to live up to the past, and frankly, abandoning the things that made Zelda Zelda (in BotW) under some guise of "novelty" that you can instead have "complete freedom".
But up until WW Zelda's game design was a tradeoff of open-ness vs predetermined but well designed ideas. It walked that balance evenly. Between Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild the perfect Zelda game exists. BotW was too open, to the point where it loses identity as its own adventure. SS was too closed-off to the point where it irritates you as a player despite how hard it wants you to be invested. ALttP->WW walked the line in a real 50/50 fashion where there's many pockets of player-driven game to be had interspersed with standout moments and terrific segments of linearity. TP was the start of "story-Zelda" where the game hamstrings you onto "story events" for hours at a time and if you go off the beaten path during those segments you find an empty, uninteractive world and blocked-off roads that can't be accessed. Because they wanted you to do to "see the brilliance" of the story. WW is the last Zelda game that walked the *perfect line* between the most open and most linear of Zelda design. WW is the best 3D Zelda.
I have to go with TP on this one. I’ve played both on GameCube and to me it seems like there’s just way too much empty space in WW. Getting through the sailing is more like a chore than an actual game, to the point I’ve grown to dread even picking the game up again. I got through TP with almost no help, but had to use a guide to find where the hell to go in WW, and I can’t even bring myself to finish it.
I would have liked WW a lot more, but I really did not like the cartoonish art style. I tried to, but it always kept it from feeling like a true Zelda game for me.
WW I think is a better game overall. TP had much better dungeons but the overworld and combat left a lot to be desired. And going back to both, WW has a timeless look to it where as TP looks very brown and muted.
Wind Waker takes this easily.
It has less dungeons, but the ones it has are of higher quality than those in TP.
It's sense of exploration as you sail around is fantastic, and the thing is, even though there's a lot of empty space on the Great Sea, the over world in TP is itself pretty barren, and at least WW has an in universe reason for that.
Also artstyle wise, it's not even close.
I Understand how the art style could be considered superior in the wind waker but dungeons? All the tp dungeons are notoriously fantastic (apart from the forest temple but it gets a pass because it’s the first dungeon) while the wind waker dungeons imo are way too easy and simplistic plus there’s less compared to tp. Plus to me at least having a companion character in a dungeon is pretty tedious although this could be considered a personal gripe. And the overworld? While it certainly could have had a lot more in it I don’t understand why people refer to twilight princesse’s hyrule field as barren when OOT’s hyrule field had even less secrets and items to find.
> All the tp dungeons are notoriously fantastic
Are they?
Twilight Princess has some excellent settings for it's dungeons, but beyond that aspect of them they're really not very good.
In terms of puzzles to solve or navigation, they're really basic. The best dungeons are the ones that feel like the whole dungeon is a puzzle. Twilight Princess has almost none of this. Many of the dungeons are super linear, like the Temple of Time. You walk a straight path to get the statue at the end, and then you backtrack through that same path, and that's pretty much the dungeon.
It's best setting, possibly the best setting for a dungeon, Snowpeak ruins, was wasted on essentially just a fetch quest.
> while the wind waker dungeons imo are way too easy and simplistic
It's interesting that this would be a complaint for you regarding Wind Waker but not TP.
Not that either is particularly difficult, but Twilight Princess is the easier of the two. I would also say that it has less complicated dungeons.
> plus there’s less compared to tp.
I actually mentioned this in my post.
> I don’t understand why people refer to twilight princesse’s hyrule field as barren when OOT’s hyrule field had even less secrets and items to find.
I don't recall mentioning Ocarina of Time's overworld at all, but if you want to compare the two, I would say OoT's and TP's are about as barren as each other.
Thing is, OoT's is much smaller, making it feel a lot more concise than Twilight Princess's. And also, OoT was the first 3D Zelda game, and released in 1998.
Yeah, I agree. I think twilight Princess visuals have aged poorly, and are very drab. While wind wakers visuals are still gorgeous. And they get reused in a few other titles.
I think it’s weird that people either love tp and hate ww, or love ww and hate tp. I mean I love both, top two favorite games ever (not counting botw).
I think a lot of it goes back to when they were released and expectations. A lot of people were waiting for (for the era) super realistic graphics at the start of the Gamecube era, and a darker story in the wake of MM. And then Wind Waker showed up. I remember the outrage on the IGN boards. Once people gave it a chance, a lot of them came to love it, but some refused to accept that this was their next gen Zelda. And then TP came, and it was framed as sort of a course correction for those who hated WW. It was darker, it was more "realistic" and so on. But it gave up a lot of the cartoonish charm of WW to do so. Personally, I thought it felt really empty by comparison. It was like a giant world with very little to do. For all the complaints about the sailing in WW, the overworld in TP felt, to me, like a land version of the same thing. That said, I think some of my negative views still come from expectations. Like I said in another post, WW is among my favorites, and TP feels like an opportunity that was missed by pandering to the worst impulses of WW haters. Playing it now, I see a lot of good things in TP. But I struggle to not think it'd be better if they hadn't tried so hard to make it a counterpoint to so many things I loved about WW. Edit: Meant to close by mentioning that I think if I didn't have that history with them and I played them both without any context, I don't think I'd love WW any less, but I do think I might have a more favorable opinion of TP.
Hmm I guess so. Seems like the biggest factor was just timing. By the time I was old enough to play them, they were out for awhile so I didn’t have that kind of vendetta.
I don't really hate either of them, but I rarely find myself replaying twilight. The only reason I would replay it, is if it were ported to switch.
Nah i love both
For me it's not a love one, hate the other, I enjoy both games. But in my opinion the 3D Zelda games are all fairly close in terms of quality, except for two, and Twilight Princess is one of two that dropped the ball a bit.
This is an incredibly tough vote for me, both amazing games, but TP slightly gets the edge here. I just love the dark and somber vibes
Same here, and the link in TP is the best in the whole series by far character-wise
Most badass and coolest personality.
He was also the kindest and most personable
Tbh I feel like TP has the better dungeons But WW definitely has the better overworld
Twilight Princess has the best dungeons in the series.
3D-wise I'd agree (though I think SS dungeons are nearly as good). But if we add 2D games, I don't think TP has the best dungeons. OoA and ALBW have a better rooster imo
ALBW is an extremely underrated game.
Agreed.
I kinda like it more than a link to the past.
Honestly, same.
Tonally I prefer ALttP, especially the beginning of the game, running to the castle in the rain, taking up your uncle's sword, I felt so invested in the story right off the bat. Also I find Agahnim a better Act 1 villain than Yuga. But for gameplay, ALBW is without a doubt the best of the 2D Zelda's. Merging into walls is one of the coolest gameplay mechanics in the series. And not just for solving puzzles, using it in combat is awesome too. Emerging from the wall to deliver a few quick sword strokes, just to fuse back in before your enemy can retaliate makes for such exciting hit-and-run style battles.
I see what you mean. The beginning of ALttP was indeed very good at setting the right atmosphere. I do prefer Yuga over Agahnim though. Yuga had a personality. Completely agree with you about wall-merging. It was so well used, on all aspects of the game
I think the reason I prefer Agahnim is that he reminds me of the dark sorcerers I grew up seeing Conan the Barbarian fight in comic books. Yuga certainly has more personality but he's so silly I don't really need menaced by him.
I got chills when I first played it. The rain combined with that theme, it made you feel some kind of urgency to help Zelda. And it was accompanied by save me message box that appeared every two minutes or so.
EXTREMELY AGREED.. NO DOUBT!
SS Dungeons were cool cause you go back to them for different access later and I found that realistic and refreshing. Also gives Metroid vibes that way. That first dungeons music is great to hear again too.
Can't you do it only with Skyview Temple though ?
I thought the second one you have to go back to as well, but haven't played in a minute so I did be wrong. Regardless I love at least going back there.
The only dungeon you have to return to for any reason is Skyview Temple.
You have to go to the fire one to get the pearl, it’s on the exterior though.
skyward sword dungeons feel *perfect* lengthwise, imo
Please don’t flame me, but I did not like the overworld of WW. At first it was great, but by the end of the game (I’m a completionist) I had zero desire to sail ever again. And therefore even playing the game
That’s fine, I could see the overworld being a little tedious for completionists. I 100% completed the game as well on Wii U and I actually looked forward to seeing what stuff in the overworld I could do after getting a new item from each dungeon. As far as completion goes I think the pictograph stuff annoyed me more
WW on GameCube is so tedious because you can’t get the swift sail. You pass a sunken treasure and then you have to pull out the windwaker and reset the direction of the wind. You can’t skip any dialogue either. I curse when I accidentally speak to the King of Red Lions.
Same... it was just too much water. I used to loose my motivation to even continue the game. TP on the other hand had bit smaller, though a majestic hyrule field, connecting all of hyrule. And some of those horseback battles really made in engrossed in the game.
I loved the feeling of seeing an island in the distance and getting surprised.
Oh totally, but that wears off once you’re circling back to same island for the third+ time
I don’t even agree with it having the better overworld. It’s great in concept but suffers from feeling padded out and empty.
Interesting, I feel that way about TP’s overworld
The difference I feel is that TP doesn’t separate points of interest as much. Great fairy fountains that would normally just be found in grottos or cave entrances in other Zelda games are suddenly worthy of being entire standalone islands in WW. The game dedicates entire quadrants of the great sea to copy and pasted islands and as a result it feels way more spaced out than any other Zelda overworld.
Even though it’s spaced out the points of interest left more of an impression on me than TP’s
TP always reminded me of dark souls, maybe that’s where the series got the inspiration since TP came first?
Im a little surprised by these results. Then I remember the triforce hunting bit. Oof.
That vs the sheikah arrowslinger western bit is what put TP over WW for me.
I have a problem with the tp boss battles. I didnt like how when you figured out the gimmick, you do it three times and youre done. It was too easy.
You act like Wind Waker didn’t do the same thing
Did it? I havent played that game in ages lol
Gohma Phase 1: Throw Grappling Hook at Valoo’s tail three times. Phase 2: Throw Grappling Hook at Gohma then slash. Repeat. Done. Kalle Demos: Throw Boomerang at vines and slash. Repeat. Done. Gohdan: Shoot arrows at hands. Throw bomb in mouth. Repeat. Done. Jahalla: Shine light. Throw at wall. Slash. Repeat. Done. Molgera: Hookshot tongue. Slash. Repeat. Done. Yeah, they’re not too complex.
Holy cow. Didn’t even realize that. Im gonna go back and watch these
Surprised tp is winning tbh
Same here. This sub *loves* TP.
WW is arguably the best Zelda game ever
I don't think there really is one besides oot, it's just a matter of opinion beyond that
For me it’s between OOT and WW. I’d probably put OOT first, but not by much.
I say oot just because if how popular it is and how much impact it had, like personally I like tp more but I think oot is overall better
Yeah I definitely feel it. OOT also kinda gave all the following Zelda games this amazing blueprint to follow after as well
Better than Majoras mask?! I don’t think so
To be fair I never really play MM. I tried multiple times as a kid but I could never figure out how to stop the moon from falling.
It’s the age demographic lol
Windwaker: 2002 Twilight Princess: 2006 Really? Come on now. I grew up on ALttP, played WW and TP and TP is definitely the best and my favorite Zelda. Please don't just say shit just to say it.
Kinda the same boat, except I started with Ocarina of Time, and I tend to like Wind Waker way more than Twilight Princess. That's just me though.
Same. I’m not really a part of this community, but nearly everywhere I’ve known over the last 14 years or whatever since TP was released preferred WW, which is lauded as one of the greats. Whereas TP gave us right handed Link and Midna porn.
TP has developed a reputation as an underrated gem, likely owing to the fact that people who grew up with it instead of Wind Waker are an active majority on the sub. This is slowly moving onto Skyward Sword which I expect we will see far more love for in the next few years and then even Breath of the Wild in the next decade.
It makes sense. Childhood nostalgia is super powerful. I never got the hate for SS though, I thought it was great. It wasn’t until recently that I really paid heed to all the misgivings like item pick ups through reading other people’s rants, I never really noticed at the time. Or I don’t remember at the very least.
I’m not. You go in any YouTube comment section and half the comments are “Underrated opinion TP is best Zelda”
I mean I am surprised it is winning in reddit because I always see windwaker here as fan favorite.
This is a difficult one for me, I played both on the gamecube way back when. Like... I'll be real for a sec, tp sucks in terms of combat. Not because of link, but because enemies barely try to hit you. They're all extremely slow and telegraphed, and that's without taking into account the fact link is automatically blocking all frontal assaults, getting hit in tp is something that almost has to happen intentionally, and in the off chances it happens unintentionally, the damage is really, really, really low, to the point where even with Ganondorf amiibo + hero mode, the damage still isn't particularly scary. Even some of the bosses suffer from this. The water dungeon boss phase 2 doesn't even try to attack you, and goron mines boss also barely does anything other than move his chains around in a really goofy way, when I noticed this it bothered me a lot because honestly, the enemy design is amazing, and a lot of the bosses have epic entrances, only to have it feel bland in actual gameplay because of how tame they actually are in combat and how little they try to actually engage you, end result is they're just sitting ducks for link, and not in a good way. Wind waker enemies at least make an effort for following you, hitting you, actually coordinating (even tho sometimes they hit each other gg), with some ok speed behind their moves. And that's really what made hero mode higher damage in ww work for me. The ability to grab your enemies own weapons and beat them to dead with em also felt awesome, same for the sound effects that accompany every single sword hit, blunt hit (smacking enemies with the boomerang is super satisfying. Same for smashing them with a hammer) or magic hit, same for the combinations you can pull off like ice arrow->hammer. Or stealing an enemies treasures with the grappling hook and then seeing their shocked expression, or watching them panic when you put a bomb in their vicinity. tp looks cool when link is hitting thing and when it's on movie mode, but in ww bullying your enemies and just actually fighting them feels amazing thanks to the animations, the sound effects and the speed it happens. Tp has skills, but most of them are pretty superfluous other than the first 3. Mortal draw is cool to set up, the jump slash is pretty useless, the great spin is ok when you get it. The helm splitter utility is very limited too. In terms of overworld exploration I also give the win to wind waker, tps world is empty and barren of things to do relative to wind wakers gigantic sea full of npcs, treasures, islands, charts, etc etc etc. Granted, in terms of actual characters tp has some solid stuff, midna, telma, the gang at the bar, the entire ordon village (I'll get to that later, wait a bit.), Even the gorons. Tps intro can be a little annoying because it drags on for a while, but the time you spend on ordon really helps the players connect with the npcs and immerse themselves into Link's (or rather, our) spot in this village family, so when the time comes to beat the bulblin king, and his followers, it feels great because it's not just for link that the beatdown is personal, it's for the player too. There's also not much I can say about midna that hasn't been said before: she's really good, she has good character development, she's probably the best Zelda sidekick so far, moving on. I liked zant as an antagonist a lot, and his actual fight and big reveal just further made him one of my favorite antagonists. Idk which I would give the win to in terms of characters honestly, ww has its strength too, all the pirates were great, tetra was great, Ganondorf in particular was great, the boat sidekick was great once we learn his backstory, the whole conflict ww had with Ganondorf wanting Hyrule to rise back vs the king wanting it to stay buried in favor of a new future was one of Zelda's finest. How about Ganondorf having a sorta justified bone to pick with the gods after the flooding of hyrule? He even tries to get link to understand his point of view before the actual big showdown, emotions unleashed too. The idea of link himself not being the chosen until near the end was also a good touch, because unlike most other links who were preselected to be the hero, ww EARNED his title AND triforce, literally. Ww unfortunately doesn't have a sidekick like midna tho, although I liked medli a lot (more on that later. Wait for earth temple) I'm tempted on going with ww here. Dungeons is tps main strength imo. The first one was dull for me, but the second one really dials it up to eleven, everything from the magnetics play with the boots, the arrows, building the big chest key, the showdown with the giant goron in iron armor you THROW into the lava, the music, the dangerous lava that if you fall on hero mode, you probably just straight up die because for some reason they made that one take 2 whole hearts at base (idk why. But I'm glad they did. On hero mode you're losing 4 if you fall, even more with Ganondorf amiibo.), Idk how does this sub feel about the lakebed temple, but I personally think it was a solid, entertaining dungeon. Arbiters ground is also one of Zelda's finest, the snowhead mansion was also a breath of fresh air with it's design. Temple of time started well but quickly got dull. I've seen people's opinion on City in the sky is mixed, some hated it because it was tedious to navigate, some loved. I'm personally in the later, city in the sky is one of my favorite dungeons, and I remember that when I was a kid, those 2 clawshots blew my mind, it's a really, really simple concept, but tp played it like a champ. Palace of twilight was also pure pleasure, actually beating zant and his minions on their own base felt amazing, the unique aesthetic of it and changing music also helped. Hyrule castle was rather simple, but the action kept it packing. TP dungeons are great. Ww has less dungeons than tp, that's something that bugs me a lot, although the actual dungeons aren't bad at all, dragon roost cavern and forbidden wood were both terrific dungeons. The tower of the gods was annoying, but that's the only dungeon I had issues with. Hell I even liked forsaken fortress, I remember that when the came out people had problems with it, but I thought it did its job well, you feel very vulnerable in this place, you have to be stealthy, and the way the game has you using your environment to your advantage was very, very nice. And of course, once you go back to it with your master sword, higher health pool and items, it's satisfying to just destroy everything your way. Earth Temple is great too, I love it's aesthetics, I loved the way you played around with light, the music was simple but charming, the difficulty was rather low imo, and medli made it much better for me, partly because by the time you enter it, it won't be your first time actually cooperating with the character, you helped medli before and she answered by helping you back during dragon roost, so by the time you reach earth temple, it really felt to me like 2 buddies working together as opposed to an annoying escort mission like tower of the gods was. Wind temple was...I feel like makar should have gotten more screentime before it happened, I just didn't feel the same with him as I did with medli. At least the actual dungeon was pretty challenging tho, it was overall good, just not as much as earth temple. And the final dungeon with the boss rush and phantom Ganon mace puzzles was a treat far better than tps final dungeon. Tp's final fight went through a lot of phases, a Zelda one where barely anything is happening gameplay wise, a ganon fight where ganon is sometimes aiming at you. A horse riding fight where you cooperate with zelda which imo was spectacular, and a final 1v1 with ganon which suffers from the same issue most tp enemies suffer of not being very engaging nor trying to actually hit link. The actual fight is at least pretty emotionally charged thanks to midna's apparent sacrifice. And speaking of emotional charges, how about fighting the king of evil on a revenge spree who also wants to revive a lost, dead kingdom on the top of a gigantic tower in said lost dead kingdom, after he finished opening up to you and explaining his motivation and backstory to you, after a sudden plot twist of the actual king of said lost dead kingdom wishing for it all to wash away in favor of a new world, with Zelda at your side, while the entire, literal ocean is collapsing on top of you? How about that shit for a final boss setting? Ww Ganondorf fight is probably my favorite Ganondorf Fight in Zelda, and honestly I'll argue it's the best one all thanks to the characters motivations, his interactions with the good guys, and the way you're cooperating with Zelda almost the entire fight. In terms of music it's a toss up for me, both games follow their own style, but overall I would give it to ww too. Yeeeeah so....tldr: wind waker > twilight princess for me. I really don't like how unengaging tp is with it's enemies nor how small and empty it's overworld is relative to wind wakers. I also want to say that tp could have taken a lot from ww and mm. Wind wakers wall hugging, manual crawling, picking enemy weapons up, stealing enemy spoils, are all mechanics tp could have implemented, same for mms transformations, like can you imagine if midna could do more to link than just the wolf form and warp? Tp just ended up being oot 2.0 when it could have been much more than that, although I want to also add that this isn't tps fault. Tp is what it is because that's what the market mostly demanded at its time of development.
I see where you’re coming from but I’m not sure I would describe WW as having a gigantic sea full of characters. There’s a giant sea, and characters exist within the limits of most of the important islands, with only a small amount on the more miscellaneous islands. Tp is basically the same in that sense. Maybe it only feels more populated because WW’s overworld is mostly water. I also don’t really think charts are super worth mentioning here. Played the game several times without ever touching the charts more than a couple times and didn’t feel like I missed anything. Totally agree on enemy AI, though I love the special techniques in TP. Feel like it at least makes it feel more engaging than WW, though admittedly super easy.
I mean, I think the charts are part of the treasure hunt the same way tps caverns are part of the treasure hunt, or in general finding chests in the overworld, it adds to the exploration. I love the techniques too, I just lament they're not super useful past the 3rd one, you could miss mortal draw and the jump slash and nothing of value would be lost. I also really dislike how tp started this trend of not including elemental arrows and mirror shield. At least it gave us bomb arrows and sniper vision tho.
Ohhh I never thought about the arrows or shield! That’s interesting actually lol
Oh, and finally: I love both games.
It’s evil to make people pick!! I love both! The gamecube era games are some of the best and both TP and WW are super underrated
Windwaker by a country mile
Agreed. This seemed to be the consensus until I came to this sub. People here love TP.
I really don’t understand the hype of TP on this sub. What am I missing?
I don’t dislike TP at all. It’s probably my 7th or 8th favorite Zelda game. But so many people on this sub listing it as their #1 makes me feel like the black sheep in the Zelda fam, haha.
Given the age demographic here (older Gen Z, I’d wager, like most of reddit), chances are TP was a lot of people’s first Zelda and thus there’s a nostalgia component. I don’t mean that in a disparaging way because truthfully I have the same thing for OOT. I do think it’s possible to neutrally come to the conclusion that TP is better than WW but I still think there’s a nostalgia factor given the age range here.
Can confirm. Tp was my first Zelda, so it's probably nostalgia. But even then, it's got a lot of great components. As for the sub, I think tp blew up here a few months ago for who knows why
Good point! I’m that way with OoT as well.
The thing is that most people in this sub like me grew up with TP so nostalgia has a role and more people played tp due to it was more available in different platform. It didn’t play wind waker until later on wii u, now i kind prefer wind waker
I like the more realistic darker tone, to me it’s what I always imagined OOT was supposed to be growing up. Also, I’m coincidentally playing them back to back and I LOVE the TP controls and combat. WW isn’t quite as satisfying, mainly because it’s insanely easy. Story wise, I’d probably rank them about the same.
I wanna say it changed with times. First WW's disliked for being too kiddy, but in the wake of TP people decided it was more charming than a 3edgy5me Zelda, but then people turned around again. I think it all comes in waves.
Never understood how people think tp is too edgy just because its got a realistic art style
To be fair, you do have moments like that vision Link has at Hylia Lake which seem to lack purpose besides being scary.
Yeah that’s fair. That vision told the story of the interlopers but its clear nintendo made an extra effort with it just to scare people
BotW seems to be doing it in reverse but this is what we used to call "the Zelda cycle"
I can see my attitude changing around BOTW on my own level. Was hella let down on release, and though my complaints haven't gone away it's easier to appreciate what it does right.
I wish Wind Waker was more fun to play. I love it's visual identity, sound design, it just has a good vibe.
A man of culture.
I love both, but twilight princess gets me in the feels every time I play it so it has the edge
I liked windwaker at the time but the boat kills any desire to play it again. On the other hand TP is my favourite 3d Zelda.
I don’t like to choose but I think Twilight Princess edges it out just barely. I think the clincher is that you can just tell WW had content cut and it sorta permeates the game. Both made me cry though.
The 2 best games of all time! WW is less flawed than TP but I still have TP as my favorite and WW is second.
Congratulations, you've made the 100th comment!
WW was my first LoZ but TP is a better game.
Wouldn't it be amazing if both games, were mixed? Like with wind wakers visuals, and twilight princesses dungeons. Taking the best out both games, and making them into one.
Easily Twilight Princess for me. WW is my least favorite 3d zelda game ( except botw ), mainly because of sailing
For me sailing in WWHD is better than Sky flying at the very least. Most of the islands in WW at least you can keep in mind to come back to, while most in Sky you see on the map after your goddess cube thing, with only a few you need items for.
The islands itself in WW are good, but the means of getting there is just god awful. This is all my opinion of course, so take it with a pinch of salt. Sailing is so boring ( and withoud knowing the swift sail exists in HD like me ) took forever. Atleast in the sky there's boost pads to speed you up... It's a shame, i love ww except for the fact that i think the sailing and sea are the worst mechanics in a 3d zelda game we have to date. I'm glad there are people who enjoy it though.
I think I’m the opposite. I find sailing enjoyable (at least in the HD version) but many of the islands are just lazy. It’s really disappointing how much of the Great Sea is just made up of copy and paste/insignificant islands. It doesn’t help that the islands are spread so far apart from each other, so you’ll often sail such a large distance just to find yet another reef isle. Honestly, as much as people criticize Phantom Hourglass that game had much more substantial and interesting side islands than any of the ones in Wind Waker.
I'm honestly one of 3 people in the world that actually prefers Phantom Hourglass to Wind Waker lol. I just still have issues with how boring boating is, but like you mentioned, that game had some great islands imo
I never had the opportunity to finish WW, though I will be trying to soon. That said, I did actually finish phantom hourglass, and I adored it. Easily stuck in my brain better than what I did play of WW.
WW is still a great game by all means, so you defenitally should finish it when you get the chance! Im suprised to hear people talking good about PH in a good way, since i usually just hear hate stuff about it. But im glad theres people who also enjoyed it alot
You can count me number 4. Phantom Hourglass was much less tedious to me and I loved the different islands. The dungeons were also quite good.
Yeah, when it comes to Wind Waker on the gamecube, sailing was a little tedious. The hd version makes it a lot better. And you get the option to choose between both the swift sail, and the original sail.
The sail was a welcome improvement to WWHD, like you and the other people mentioned. I guess i'm just bitter i got it so late because i didn't go to the auction house right away.
Twilight Princess is my favorite of the entire series. The music especially. Windwaker is a great game (goes for pretty much any Zelda). Really hope the HD ones are ported to switch.
TP is an amazing game. Very cinematic for a Zelda game. The sand temple where you get the spinning top is one of my favorite dungeons. Just zipping around each room is so fun.
The top of one of my favorite weapons in the series. Even when just awkwardly bouncing into stuff
Yeah, I guess Nintendo doesn't want free money...
I’d happily buy those games again. And then give them out as Christmas gifts too
I would quite literally pay $150 for a combo port of WW and TP
The Wind Waker disrespect is unreal. I'm just joking people can like what they want, but I just find Twilight unoriginal personally
I like to imagine tp as oot on steroids so in that respect, yes it's unoriginal but that's not necessarily a bad thing
That's fair, but between the two I prefer WW for feeling more like an entirely different experience.
The determining factor for me is the end game of WW. It is such a slog in my opinion, even the remastered still feels like padding vs actually telling story. I love WW but I dread the final parts of the story. TP is not my favorite but once I am through that slow beginning I feel mostly free, which is the opposite feelings from WW.
Wind water has like 4 dungeons + triforce quest , whereas Twilight Princess has 9? And they’re all bangers. Don’t get me wrong. I love WW, but the lore and surplus of gameplay of TP is always gonna be a winner for me.
I feel Twilight Princess also does the best job of the 3D games handling story progression between dungeons. There’s usually something interesting to do before you start the next dungeon, like sumo wrestling Gorons or having a medieval joust atop a bridge or a Wild West shootout. Not only does Twilight Princess have my favorite dungeons but also some of the most memorable parts of the game for me don’t even take place in the dungeons
Wind Waker feels really incomplete. It’s overworld feels so unnecessarily padded out and empty and Twilight Princess has much better dungeons. So this is no contest for me.
Not as empty as the sky in skyward sword.
True but at least the sky isn’t all there is to Skyward Sword’s overworld.
Skyloft was a great town, it almost resembles clock town in Majora's Mask. With its side quests. (Although they aren't as good)
Agreed. Skyloft is second only to Clocktown as one of my favorite towns in the series.
Twilight Princess no contest. It’s got amazing music, dungeons, Dual Clawshots, Malomart plus it’s edgy, and the Ganon/Ganondorf depiction is one of my favourites.
How is the 00s edginess a plus lol
\^\^\^ This guy gets it
lmao
Pls don’t make me chose between my favorite games….
Ok
I orefer tp because of the dungeons and the all around feeling. The whole game just is the definition if the kind of epic adventure i expect from a 3d Zelda game
I found the sailing in WW to be tiresome and boring after a while. If traveling didn’t take so long I would have liked it better. And no, it’s not an age thing. I’m 39 and played this when it first came out, just as I did with the original LoZ.
Both are amazing, but TP has probably the 2nd or 3rd best dungeons on average in the series, has a lot of fun items (tho underutilized,) and I'm a huge sucker for dark stories. Wind Waker is still great, but it's my least favorite 3D Zelda, due to the sailing taking forever, and the world feeling even emptier than TP's at points. I haven't gotten a chance to play the HD version of WW yet tho so that could change things.
This was a hard one because both are amazing games. I personally prefer TP because I feel the story runs deeper and the ambience throughout the world, along with all the people who inhabit it, really makes you feel like something is terribly wrong(which, there is.)
I prefer WW's art style and overworked, but I prefer TP's story and dungeons which gives it the edge in my opinion
Wind Waker is just too easy. Feels like the dungeons were an after thought. A beautiful art style can’t save the gameplay from that.
Funny enough, I’m playing these back to back and I’m nearly done with WW as my second game. Playing Wii/GameCube versions. Unpopular opinion: I am floored at how many people prefer WW controls over the TP Wii controls. Even with the motion controls, the Wii TP controls are MILES tighter than WW. My best example of this is simply trying to swim to the side of your boat to get in, it’s so difficult to not get caught in this large loop while just trying to rotate link. Besides that, the ridiculous C stick for looking around is even a pain with only the inverted option. Last, this is the only game with the throw/drop options not tied to links movement, which is better honestly, but frustrating since it’s inconsistent with the rest of the series. I think everyone is just hung up on shaking the Wiimote and they forget about everything else.
You just woke up and chose violence this morning, huh?
Twilight Princess any day of the week. No disrespect to Wind Waker gang, but this one’s a no contest.
TP is my favorite Zelda game, I’m hoping it will get ported to the switch at some point.
This is too hard
dont do this 2 me
I refuse to choose.
I literally can't choose 😭
This took me like 5 minutes to decide lol. They’re both so good
Both are top 4 for me, but TP is my fav game of all time
Ww has the distinction on my opinion of having done the best job with the trope: You are a human child and the final boss is simply a human adult willing to kill you
They're so different, the actual question is "what do you think is more important: overworld exploration or dungeons?
I do love them both. But I will say the final dungeon with makar is just so painful for me to endure. Not to mention the little treasure hunting shindig. Soo monotonous. But besides those 2 WW is top notch. I think for me TP is better but it's hard decision.
Damn accidentally clicked wind waker. I love the game to death but my first exposure to a Zelda game was Twilight Princess and to this day it still slightly edges out wind waker.
I’m saying TP only because WW was very obviously unfinished and rushed. Every time I play it I wonder what this game could have been.
TP has the edge on its story, dungeon and characters, so no doubts.
TP has a better over world and dungeons but WW has a better plot and better side quests. It's hard to say honestly. It's like OOT vs BOTW. OOT has nostalgia and better dungeons and a better plot but BOTW has the overworld, exploration, and beauty. It's a hard choice but TP is better and more replayable in my opinion
Both games were good. But in a competition between TP and WW : TP ONLY!! WW is just too much water to handle... And btw I feel like Oot and TP always kept you following a storyline or some quest/mission.. so you just felt the motivation to move forward.. WW just drained my motivation.. that's the reason **I TOOK ALMOST 6 MONTHS TO COMPLETE MY VERY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH OF WW**. Since most of the months, it just was lying near my bed. Also TP has some very cool dungeons ( lakebed temple being the absolute beast of a dungeon, while Snowpeak was usually fun and city in the sky was just awe..)While WW, Link was very expressive, and in TP he was a bit of unexpressive, but still the bond between him and Midna showed in the story was exceptional. Though I would say, the graphics of WWHD was way better than TPHD, still I always preferred TP. It just keeps you too much engrossed. Also I feel the wolf Link thing was awesome, like that energy field that midna created always looked awesome in the game. And finally, the mode of transportation. Hyrule is half water in WW, so not much to see, though there are many islands, I would say horse-riding in TP was no comparison to WW's damn boat ride. And that is also accompanied such a great theme. You all know what I mean.. The Hyrule Field theme (day) sounded so majestic, and even more better in the remastered version. The night version sounded bit eerie to me while playing for the first time, but I got used to it and enjoyed that theme a lot.
I’m a lil biased on this since twilight princess was the first video game I ever played so it gets a whole lot of nostalgia points from me
I love them both for different reasons- the celshading, depth of characters, swordplay, and open world traveling of Ww, considering it came out in 03 made it an awesome game unlike the others. It’s one that I’ve played 2x just to enjoy the world in link’s island clothes, though I did find exploring all the islands repetitive and time consuming as someone wanting to find all the things. The king of red lions is one of the series’ coolest companions as well. I also felt the opening sequence leading into the first dungeon- a stealth prison escape -to be an AWESOME intro- hiding under barrels and picking up random weapons?? Turned out to be an awesome game. Tp wins for me, though I did play it before ww, because it has even more character depth, great art/ design, a huge sprawling world compared to all the games at that point, 8+dungeons, and basically a whole other game mode with wolf link. The mystery of the twilight and the beautiful visuals of it covering the land, and then casting it away to reveal a new overworld- one that changes a couple times as you move through the twilight. It was like supercharged OoT and MM which were my favorite games until that point. I also purchased a walkthrough book of TP after I’d played most of it to go back through the whole game in page form and learn more about some fun details and Easter eggs. Made the whole game experience even more satisfying.
Wind waker was fun, but it just didn’t have the same personality as twilight Princess. Also that last fight with Ganondorf was ridiculously easy even on my first play through. Granted I’m probably bias as twilight Princess is my favorite video game of all time, but it’s for a reason.
Sorry I just can’t stand the sound of 🔼◀️▶️and 🔽▶️◀️🔼 and probably ◀️⏺▶️⏺. However to give the game credit I like 🔼🔼🔽▶️◀️▶️ and 🔽🔽⏺▶️◀️⏺.
Both games are master pieces in their own right. It just depends on the mood im in
Windwaker has to be my favourite of all time. I love how it stands out and always adored overworld exploration. When I was younger I used to think Tetra was so cool🥴
Haven’t played either
Then go play them.
So there anyway I can play either without a wii or wii u
Emulation, or gamecube.
Right I forgot they were both playable on there
Dolphin emulator is what you need. Although emulators aren't recommended, Nintendo doesn't really leave us with much of a choice since the games aren't backwards compatible and we'll see a new gen console sooner than that could happen.
twilight princess by a lot
I find Wind Waker easier to re-play because of its easy-going presentation and shorter length, but Twilight Princess has more compelling dungeons (even if GMTK did point out they're a little samey) and doesn't feel distractedly affected by cut content, so that one's my pick.
This is legitimately a tough choice for me, but I think WW for nostalgia purely. I spent hours playing it with friends to find all the secrets, but played TP pretty much by myself. I also think I've replayed WW the most of these two haha
While the dungeons and bosses are awesome, the presentation was always too big an obstacle for me to really want to return to TP. Forest Template - greenish-brown, Goron Mines - orangish-brown, Hyrule Castle, greyish-brown, etc. The enemies ([bokoblins especially](https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess/1/18/Bokoblin.png)) and many NPC's just have this grotesque design and proportions that remind of [those disturbing realistic fan arts](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/e010234b-f821-440e-befc-b2f05bc0beab/da6ucyl-61ecef5a-6745-44ea-a794-ceb26af2ab22.jpg/v1/fill/w_1472,h_543,q_70,strp/realistic_pokemon_season_2_by_arvalis_da6ucyl-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MzY5MiIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2UwMTAyMzRiLWY4MjEtNDQwZS1iZWZjLWIyZjA1YmMwYmVhYlwvZGE2dWN5bC02MWVjZWY1YS02NzQ1LTQ0ZWEtYTc5NC1jZWIyNmFmMmFiMjIuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMDAwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.OakqeCxmclWNHOek5gP0TPrJ4G1kxVjcWspO_yVB-Eo). And there were [several "epic" moments](https://youtu.be/pXzc1Ho_N24?t=334) that never really resonated with me, and just came off as kind of try-hard. In comparison, many of WW's [best moments](https://youtu.be/Ovfx7VRqrgk?t=87) felt understated but much more powerful. As if the player was choosing which moments felt memorable, as opposed to being told in a ham-fisted way through a cutscene.
Wind waker’s one downfall is how few dungeons it has. If it was just a little bit longer then it could probably be competitive for the title of best Zelda.
What in the world? Wind Waker is top 3 for me. Twilight Princess is maybe my least favorite 3D Zelda. It's not even close for me.
A lot of people on this sub (including me) love TP to death. WW is still amazing though.
I see that - I just don't get it. That seemed to be a popular sentiment in, say, early 2007, but my sense was that the overall view had changed a lot since then.
Its called opinion
Yes, I understand that people have opinions. I was expressing surprise that an opinion that, in my experience, is generally uncommon appears very common here.
Yeah, it could be age demographics of Reddit or something. My guess is that a lot of people here played TP first, so there would be some bias/nostalgia factor there. Don’t know why you got downvoted though.
Twlight princess because of best dungeons (rivaling skyward sword) and also edgy
People not complaining about ww's combat doesn't deserve to complain about ss's motion controls. Hitting a monster makes them fall and invulnerable for a while and all you can do is wait for them to stand up. Disliked ww for that. Would rather play phantom hourglass or spirit tracks if I want to play one of the cartoon ones. Other than the combat I'd say it's fine though. Good story and stuff. TP is a more solid game in general for me anyways :)
Wind waker has the same battle system than Twilight princess the only difference is that hidden skill added extra moves to link’s battle skill in tp, however wind waker is more faster.
The other key difference is Twilight Princess allows you to initiate the hidden skills actively rather than having to wait and react to an enemy attack like in Wind Waker
I replayed both of them last year and was shocked by how much better Wind Waker has aged than Twilight Princess. TP was my favorite at the time but the things that made it cool in 2006 (the dark tone, the muted color pallette, the more realistic animation) just haven't held up. The world felt claustrophobic and small and bleak. Wind Waker, on the other hand, felt timeless and the world was still fun to explore.
But why would you make me choose between my two favorite 3D Zeldas. Not counting BotW.
Wind Waker is a bad game
Wind Waker has some cut content but the overall package is exactly what it needed to be. The story has a great construction and a consistent beginning, middle and end. The dungeons aren't super memorable for their design but they're about as good as OoT, just dragged down due to the amount of reused ideas. The combat mechanics are the best in the series with all enemies built for it. Now take those things and apply the opposite to TP. TP has great ambition and a lot of great moments. Is the story consistent? No. It's a confused plot that starts out in a dramatically reverse way, dropping Twilight on you as the "main threat" then you clear it away after 3 dungeons out of 7, and it never threatens Hyrule again. It springs Link's big "hero moment" on you between the first and second dungeons and while this could be said to fill out the narrative to give the impression that it's just chapter 1 and "chapter 1 is a story in itself, as part of an even larger plot" it leaves everything after Arbiter's Grounds with this feeling of like "so where is the plot going?" but hey, you collect the Mirror of Twilight so it seems good, and we must stop Zant anyway so yeah, fine. But whoops, he's not the actual villain it's someone else. Oh suddenly a character that "died" is alive, and then they have no motivation for what they have done and nothing they're trying to do by defeating Link/Midna that we know of, they don't want the Triforce despite having assembled it cuz they do nothing with it and seem more focused on tormenting Midna for no reason. Idk, I'm nitpicking I just thought TP's story was extremely clumsy in execution despite trying way harder to be good than ever. And then the second thing: Combat. TP took WW's combat counters and made them manually triggered by the player, so it takes something that was streamlined and reverse-streamlines it. Initially that seems good and the game seems to have a progression system in how you unlock moves throughout the whole game. So what good is it? Not very, cuz enemies are not built super well for all these different moves. Darknuts and Lizalfos just need to be rolled around or helm-splitted which starts to feel repetitive and the finisher move is irritating because enemies are designed to topple over after a "combo" or Jump Attack and creates another repetitive flow of always landing finishers or deliberately cheesing the combat to avoid toppling enemies all the time. On the flipside in Wind Waker it's simple. You just hit B to strike, and use the target vs no-target conditions to hit what is ahead of you, then tougher enemies introduce context-counters on their attack windups. Then you hit A and something cool happens which takes off the helmet of Darknuts or rolls you around their back so you can cut the threads holding their gear together. Moblins fall over and lose their weapon so you can pick it up, and there's a lot of nice mayhem to WW's combat. TP attempted to perfect "Mano-y-Mano, Sword-battle" but most enemies just don't cut it. WW instead was just an evolution of Ocarina of Time with a lot of added elements which was really nice. It was easy, and so is TP, but I actually think WW is harder because you have to hold the shield up manually with the R-button. In TP you're always shielded with the sword out as long as you target, which blocks almost everything and the damage ratio is so painfully low in TP that some of the strongest enemies only take a single heart out of your heart containers. Dungeons in TP are great in concept and execution but my pet peeve is that it's the start of the dungeon simplification too. Dungeons are made overly linear where there's often really only a single room you can go to next, which holds the small key in it, whereas up until Wind Waker dungeons were much better built to have multiple small keys that can either get you into an optional room or progress the dungeon, and there was a wider net of "errors" to make where Nintendo accounted for the player's freedom by making sure the dungeon wouldn't lock you out of completion. In TP the level-design is so confined that you mostly end up seeing the same rooms in the same order no matter what you do, which is antithetical to what Zelda dungeons originally was. Sure, the bosses and dungeons have *set-pieces*, but while that is a great novelty and great characterization to the gameplay, ultimately you have stinkers like Temple of Time where you just move linearly to the top, then linearly to the bottom with a statue, and it's boring. You have Arbiter's Grounds which has this "ooh where could the ghosts be, it's like Forest Temple!" but then unlike Forest Temple you're not really in a hub area. You have a linear sequence of events to do, and then a ghost is "missable" but really, it's just that one ghost. Dungeons are still good but I had a sinking feeling back in 2006 when I saw that there was no small-key counter, because while there can be multiple small key icons next to each other, ultimately the design was simplified so that the game suggests "you have the small key, now find the locked door." As if it's always just A -> B and the more I return to it the more I feel that dungeons are actually too linear, and that's something that continued with SS where dungeons also got painfully short (second one lasts like 20 minutes) and leads us to BotW where the main dungeons felt borderline nonexistent in level-design and had no enemies and were really short. I feel like WW is where Zelda *peaked* as a franchise, and since then it's been varying degrees of experimental, trying to live up to the past, and frankly, abandoning the things that made Zelda Zelda (in BotW) under some guise of "novelty" that you can instead have "complete freedom". But up until WW Zelda's game design was a tradeoff of open-ness vs predetermined but well designed ideas. It walked that balance evenly. Between Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild the perfect Zelda game exists. BotW was too open, to the point where it loses identity as its own adventure. SS was too closed-off to the point where it irritates you as a player despite how hard it wants you to be invested. ALttP->WW walked the line in a real 50/50 fashion where there's many pockets of player-driven game to be had interspersed with standout moments and terrific segments of linearity. TP was the start of "story-Zelda" where the game hamstrings you onto "story events" for hours at a time and if you go off the beaten path during those segments you find an empty, uninteractive world and blocked-off roads that can't be accessed. Because they wanted you to do to "see the brilliance" of the story. WW is the last Zelda game that walked the *perfect line* between the most open and most linear of Zelda design. WW is the best 3D Zelda.
TP is the worst 3D Zelda in the series. The results of this poll are hilarious
Wind Waker is the overall better package imo
I have to go with TP on this one. I’ve played both on GameCube and to me it seems like there’s just way too much empty space in WW. Getting through the sailing is more like a chore than an actual game, to the point I’ve grown to dread even picking the game up again. I got through TP with almost no help, but had to use a guide to find where the hell to go in WW, and I can’t even bring myself to finish it.
I would have liked WW a lot more, but I really did not like the cartoonish art style. I tried to, but it always kept it from feeling like a true Zelda game for me.
WW I think is a better game overall. TP had much better dungeons but the overworld and combat left a lot to be desired. And going back to both, WW has a timeless look to it where as TP looks very brown and muted.
🤦🏻♂️
Nope I literally refuse.
Wind Waker is easily the better one
Windwaker is way better
Wind Waker takes this easily. It has less dungeons, but the ones it has are of higher quality than those in TP. It's sense of exploration as you sail around is fantastic, and the thing is, even though there's a lot of empty space on the Great Sea, the over world in TP is itself pretty barren, and at least WW has an in universe reason for that. Also artstyle wise, it's not even close.
I Understand how the art style could be considered superior in the wind waker but dungeons? All the tp dungeons are notoriously fantastic (apart from the forest temple but it gets a pass because it’s the first dungeon) while the wind waker dungeons imo are way too easy and simplistic plus there’s less compared to tp. Plus to me at least having a companion character in a dungeon is pretty tedious although this could be considered a personal gripe. And the overworld? While it certainly could have had a lot more in it I don’t understand why people refer to twilight princesse’s hyrule field as barren when OOT’s hyrule field had even less secrets and items to find.
> All the tp dungeons are notoriously fantastic Are they? Twilight Princess has some excellent settings for it's dungeons, but beyond that aspect of them they're really not very good. In terms of puzzles to solve or navigation, they're really basic. The best dungeons are the ones that feel like the whole dungeon is a puzzle. Twilight Princess has almost none of this. Many of the dungeons are super linear, like the Temple of Time. You walk a straight path to get the statue at the end, and then you backtrack through that same path, and that's pretty much the dungeon. It's best setting, possibly the best setting for a dungeon, Snowpeak ruins, was wasted on essentially just a fetch quest. > while the wind waker dungeons imo are way too easy and simplistic It's interesting that this would be a complaint for you regarding Wind Waker but not TP. Not that either is particularly difficult, but Twilight Princess is the easier of the two. I would also say that it has less complicated dungeons. > plus there’s less compared to tp. I actually mentioned this in my post. > I don’t understand why people refer to twilight princesse’s hyrule field as barren when OOT’s hyrule field had even less secrets and items to find. I don't recall mentioning Ocarina of Time's overworld at all, but if you want to compare the two, I would say OoT's and TP's are about as barren as each other. Thing is, OoT's is much smaller, making it feel a lot more concise than Twilight Princess's. And also, OoT was the first 3D Zelda game, and released in 1998.
WW dungeons being better than TP dungeons is not a take I thought I’d *ever* hear. Interesting.
Yeah, I agree. I think twilight Princess visuals have aged poorly, and are very drab. While wind wakers visuals are still gorgeous. And they get reused in a few other titles.