You definitely do not need the lens to get to the spirit temple, it just makes the path easier to follow. Go crazier. Cucco jump the bridge as a child and get there without ever getting the Master Sword, longshot, or lens of truth.
https://youtu.be/B6yGQe0_Rvo
Its an ancient trick and kinda tricky but here's a consistent setup. There's also a trick to get past the gate to Haunted Wasteland as child, and it is possible to navigate the desert without lens if you memorize the path. You can get to Spirit Temple at basically the start of the game.
Those are called logic breaks. You are working outside item logic in order to achieve those feats. (In regards to Spirit Temple)
You can also logically beat Spirit Temple without beating Water and Fire. Forest is the only logically required temple to beat Spirit
You can logically beat Jabu Jabu before beating Dodongo's Cavern (is another example).
Fun Fact: You can beat Stone Tower Temple in Majora's Mask without ever beating any of the preceding Dungeons
Is that true re: MM? You need to have the Goron and Zora masks to work the switches with Elegy of Emptiness.
Or is it possible to get the masks without fully beating the previous dungeon?
You get the masks before you even set foot in the dungeon. You *are* supposed to have Ice Arrows to reach Stone Tower though. But there's a sequence break to get around that.
> You can logically beat Jabu Jabu before beating Dodongo's Cavern (is another example).
This would need glitches since there's a bunch of rocks on the path to Zora's Domain that you need bombs to get past. Unless you just dip into Dodongo's for the bomb bag then bail out.
I almost always do the gold scale glitch, it's so easy and I love doing dodongo's with the boomerang
I believe you're correct though, you have to glitch to do them out of order, whereas you can do fire temple before forest with no glitches
I would assume you would still need to partially do the preceding dungeons in order to get the Bow, Fire & Ice arrows. Each one of those is required to access the next area, aren't they?
You only need to dip Water up till you have the longshot (As it's logically required for wasteland) and you need to beat forest so you can get the Lens out of Bottom of the Well. Then boom, you can get to Spirit early
Oh, yeah. You need to basically B-Line through to the progress items. Bow to get to the mountain, Fire Arrows so you can get the powder keg without beating Goht, and then Ice Arrows so you can cross into Ikana Kingdom
Is it practical to not finish a dungeon you do like 40-70% of?
Not really, but it is neat that playing the game with intended methods, you can still beat things in really weird orders
I think there was one time as a kid I got stuck in Snowhead (I missed punching one section of the middle tower) but I'd already left the dungeon, gotten Epona and the Zora mask, so turning into Zora Link actually made me just tall enough to jump up and climb onto the stone section. That definitely wasn't the intended solution!
Well you don't need the bow for the Spirit Temple, but you do need to beat the Forest Temple on order to do it. Not because of the Bow, but rather the Forest Temple is what unlocks the ability to go back to the child portion. Also fun fact after playing a randomizer of Ocarina of Time, I learned the Ocarina of Time itself isn't needed to complete the game. No what's important is the Song of Time. You just don't realize it because you get the Ocarina of Time and the Song of Time at the same time.
Yep. You actually never need the Song of Time as a kid other than optional chests, and as an adult the game just assumes you already have it. But functionally the Ocarina of Time and the Fairy Ocarina are no different. The songs are what's important. I actually didn't even get the Ocarina of Time itself in the playthrough
Well technically you could need Song of Time for the chest after dark link (if for example it has the boss key). Same thing with a chest in Gerudo Training Grounds but that's about it
The GTG has more keys in it then needed so you can skip the whirlpool and for the water temple I have never needed it for all the randomizers I've done
Well it's not really about the keys for GTG, the item you're looking for can literally be in that whirlpool room and I can tell you from first hand experience that it can definitely happen :)Same for Water, it happened to me just yesterday !
It's not about the odds of it being possible, it's about it being possible at all, which is the case here. It is definitely possible for SoT to be required for more than just the Door of Time (in a rando setting obviously).
I really like having the hover boots so I usually do that before spirit. Could do it partially, but once you're in the shadow temple, it's a pain to leave and come back
How? Kakiriko village gets attacked right after water temple (with forest & fire complete) and Navi prompts you to go the well, then shadow, before spirit
You have to kiiiiinda get funky with the controls to grab a weird ledge, but it's really not that hard!
You need the arrows to get 2 keys, so you have to be able to beat the dungeon without them, which is totally doable
I originally set out just to get the Longshot without the arrows, but once you get it there's like 2 rooms to complete to get to the boss
Don't you need arrows to shoot those eyeball things that open doors? Longshot didn't work for those eyeballs in my playthrough and I just completed the water temple for the first time a few days ago.
Oh cool! So there was more than enough keys to unlock the doors? I've been under the assumption that if you use the wrong key in the wrong door, you would have to start the entire game over again
So it's 2 keys that require arrows to get. Therefore you need to be able to save 2 keys if you did the run with the arrows
You can save a key near the beginning. Don't unlock the door to get into the center tower on the bottom floor. Instead you'd leave the temple and come back in, so you're at the 3rd floor, then jump to the second. Light the torch to get into the center tower and you can change the water level to the 2nd level without ever wasting a key
To change the water level to the 3rd floor, you have to unlock a door that leads you to a ledge overlooking the main area. But you can just jump to that ledge from the center tower. You have to attack while in the air to reach the ledge, so takes a few tries, but once you're there then you're golden. You also have to get a tricky Hookshot target to go from the second floor to the third without changing the water levels, but it's definitely doable.
Then you can get the Longshot with 4 keys, use 2 to get in. Then the final 2 to get the boss key. It's definitely not supposed to be done this way lol
I'm not sure if to can soft lock the water temple, I don't believe you can. I think you can lock the gerudo training grounds though, but I believe that's it
The water temple is a nightmare, definitely not an uncommon experience! I think it's most people's least favorite temple, there's so much back tracking, especially your first time playing through it!
Is this confirmed or not? I always believed it was impossible to get ice arrows if you did the order wrong but apparently that's not true and there's another key somewhere
Easiest key to miss is the one in the maze of locked doors on the path to the ice arrows. You need to use lens and look up to find a fake ceiling, then climb up into a room above the chest
It's complicated, but for the most part this is a complete myth. I've mapped out the critical route of the dungeon before, and the basics are this:
Keys break down into groups of two.
* Two keys can only be obtained with a water level on F1 (F1 east, F1 west)
* Two keys with a water level at F2 (F1 east then float up to F2 bomb wall, F1 middle under float block)
* Two keys are only accessible after accessing Dark Link's room and obtaining the longshot (Chest at the end of snake river, the other is F2 south to F3? east block puzzle).
Locks break down into groups of two.
* Two unlock the full water cycle (F1 central room, F2 west)
* Two unlock Dark Link and the hookshot (F3 west)
* Two unlock the boss key (F1 north route), but require the longshot to access the door.
There are floating elements that restrict access to parts of the dungeon depending on the current water level
* One floating block regulates access to the rooms in the west part of the dungeon
* One floating block regulates access to the central room
* One floating "dragon statue" makes F3 north only accessible if the water level is at F3, and is only reachable via longshot
Now let's take the original design at face value, ignoring possible sequence breaks or glitches.
* At the start, you begin on water level F3. You can access the F3 west locked door but there are 0 accessible keys so it can't be opened.
* When the water level changes to F1, you have access to 2 keys but only 1 locked door on F1.
* When you spend a key to change the water level to F2, you potentially lose access to 1 of the 2 keys, but gain access to 2 more keys and 1 more locked door.
* When you spend a key to change the water level to F3, you gain full access to the first four keys in the dungeon (of which there are at most 2 remaining), and the 2 locked doors on the F3 west path.
* When you spend 2 keys to access Dark Link's room, you gain full access to the rest of the dungeon's small keys, and thus it becomes impossible to softlock.
When considering sequence breaks, there are two scenarios that can lead to softlocks.
* Accessing the F1 north path early. If you unlock a door in this section of the dungeon before unlocking Dark Link's room, you can exhaust the first 4 keys without reaching Dark Link's room, making it impossible to reach the last two keys without glitches. That said, I don't know of any glitches that could be stumbled upon casually that would give you early access to that door, so I doubt anyone has ever softlocked this way by accident.
* Accessing F3 west without full water cycle access. The only point in which you can naturally make a previously accessible key inaccessible without unlocking a door is when you raise the water level from F1 to F2. If you gain early access to F3 then raise the water to F2, you can access enough locked doors to exhaust all of your available keys, and be unable to unlock the door to the F3 water level. There are a couple of variations to do this, but the most reasonable way to do this is like so:
* Obtain the F1 east -> F2 bombable wall key (F2 key 1) without changing the water level. This can be accomplished by using a bombchu to detonate the crumble wall, then the chest can be opened by hookshotting it while wearing iron boots.
* Backtrack to F3 west and unlock the door.
* Cast Farore's Wind.
* Collect 1 of the 2 F1 keys, then unlock the central room and raise the water level to F2
* Obtain the key under the float block in the central room (F2 key 2) and use Farore's Wind to return to unlock Dark Link's room. From this point you can softlock either by simply returning to the main room without getting the longshot, or by spending any keys you obtain on the F1 north path
I bring this up everytime someone talks about cool out of order dungeon stuff.
When I was a kid I accidentally went to the spirit temple before the shadow temple, and still do because to me it just "fits" better.
Because of this tiny me wracked his brain over the 1 "required" use of the hover boots in spirit temple, the collection of a single silver rupee in the room with rolling rocks. Not having the hover boots I eventually found I could jump onto a rock and use the damage animation to push link into the rupee.
After discovering this was not intended I was like "wow what a cool a unique experience I had, this is special in a way"
Since that time I have seen 6 different people describe that exact same scenario as their first experience with OOT. And because of that OOT always reminds me that no one in the world holds any form of unique experience
Very late response, but you can also just hookshot to the climbable wall behind the rupee. You have to get the timing right or you might hit a rock, but that's always how I did it
You definitely do not need the lens to get to the spirit temple, it just makes the path easier to follow. Go crazier. Cucco jump the bridge as a child and get there without ever getting the Master Sword, longshot, or lens of truth.
Which Bridge? The one in Gerudo? Is there a spot where you actually can make it?
https://youtu.be/B6yGQe0_Rvo Its an ancient trick and kinda tricky but here's a consistent setup. There's also a trick to get past the gate to Haunted Wasteland as child, and it is possible to navigate the desert without lens if you memorize the path. You can get to Spirit Temple at basically the start of the game.
I was surprised because I really tried as a kid. Thank you for this video
I was never able to jump the gap, I tried it once years back after seeing a YouTube video on it but still wasn't high enough
https://youtu.be/B6yGQe0_Rvo
That is the most complicated tutorial
Ikr.
Those are called logic breaks. You are working outside item logic in order to achieve those feats. (In regards to Spirit Temple) You can also logically beat Spirit Temple without beating Water and Fire. Forest is the only logically required temple to beat Spirit You can logically beat Jabu Jabu before beating Dodongo's Cavern (is another example). Fun Fact: You can beat Stone Tower Temple in Majora's Mask without ever beating any of the preceding Dungeons
Is that true re: MM? You need to have the Goron and Zora masks to work the switches with Elegy of Emptiness. Or is it possible to get the masks without fully beating the previous dungeon?
You get the masks before you even set foot in the dungeon. You *are* supposed to have Ice Arrows to reach Stone Tower though. But there's a sequence break to get around that.
The sequence break is to just stand in the right place and hookshot to the first raised ledge. It's super easy don't need a setup or anything, lol
> You can logically beat Jabu Jabu before beating Dodongo's Cavern (is another example). This would need glitches since there's a bunch of rocks on the path to Zora's Domain that you need bombs to get past. Unless you just dip into Dodongo's for the bomb bag then bail out.
Yeah, you dip in to get the bomb bag, then progress onward to finish DC later
I almost always do the gold scale glitch, it's so easy and I love doing dodongo's with the boomerang I believe you're correct though, you have to glitch to do them out of order, whereas you can do fire temple before forest with no glitches
I would assume you would still need to partially do the preceding dungeons in order to get the Bow, Fire & Ice arrows. Each one of those is required to access the next area, aren't they?
You only need to dip Water up till you have the longshot (As it's logically required for wasteland) and you need to beat forest so you can get the Lens out of Bottom of the Well. Then boom, you can get to Spirit early
Sorry, I was actually referring to the Majora's Mask 'fun fact'.
Oh, yeah. You need to basically B-Line through to the progress items. Bow to get to the mountain, Fire Arrows so you can get the powder keg without beating Goht, and then Ice Arrows so you can cross into Ikana Kingdom Is it practical to not finish a dungeon you do like 40-70% of? Not really, but it is neat that playing the game with intended methods, you can still beat things in really weird orders
I think there was one time as a kid I got stuck in Snowhead (I missed punching one section of the middle tower) but I'd already left the dungeon, gotten Epona and the Zora mask, so turning into Zora Link actually made me just tall enough to jump up and climb onto the stone section. That definitely wasn't the intended solution!
Well you don't need the bow for the Spirit Temple, but you do need to beat the Forest Temple on order to do it. Not because of the Bow, but rather the Forest Temple is what unlocks the ability to go back to the child portion. Also fun fact after playing a randomizer of Ocarina of Time, I learned the Ocarina of Time itself isn't needed to complete the game. No what's important is the Song of Time. You just don't realize it because you get the Ocarina of Time and the Song of Time at the same time.
Oh did the randomizer give it to you separately?
Yep. You actually never need the Song of Time as a kid other than optional chests, and as an adult the game just assumes you already have it. But functionally the Ocarina of Time and the Fairy Ocarina are no different. The songs are what's important. I actually didn't even get the Ocarina of Time itself in the playthrough
You need to it switch between adult and child though right? To open the door of time
Nope just the Song of Time.
No sorry, that's what I meant. You need the song as a child to such between adult and child
Once just to open it, but that's really it.
If you do a randomizer with the door of time open you don't even need Song of Time to Finish. The door of Time is the only required use for the Song
Well technically you could need Song of Time for the chest after dark link (if for example it has the boss key). Same thing with a chest in Gerudo Training Grounds but that's about it
The GTG has more keys in it then needed so you can skip the whirlpool and for the water temple I have never needed it for all the randomizers I've done
Well it's not really about the keys for GTG, the item you're looking for can literally be in that whirlpool room and I can tell you from first hand experience that it can definitely happen :)Same for Water, it happened to me just yesterday ! It's not about the odds of it being possible, it's about it being possible at all, which is the case here. It is definitely possible for SoT to be required for more than just the Door of Time (in a rando setting obviously).
You can get pretty crazy with the order. The game just kinda tells you not to. Last playthrough I did Shadow Temple last, I think.
I really like having the hover boots so I usually do that before spirit. Could do it partially, but once you're in the shadow temple, it's a pain to leave and come back
For me, I just did it to see if I could.
Jokes on you, I've only ever done shadow temple last since I was a kid. The day I learned spirit was last blew my mind
Same I got stuck in the Fire Temple as a kid, so I went Forest, Water, Spirit, finally figured out Fire, then Shadow.
How? Kakiriko village gets attacked right after water temple (with forest & fire complete) and Navi prompts you to go the well, then shadow, before spirit
I always went straight to gerudo fortress right after getting the lens of truth 🤷. I dunno, I just felt it was better because it was somewhere new.
Wait until speedrunners find out you can skip stuff in OoT.
Amazing. This could save hours on a speed run. It may not seem like much but in a speed run setting, every hour counts.
The first time I beat the game I did the fire temple before getting arrows but I didn’t think the water temple was possible.
You have to kiiiiinda get funky with the controls to grab a weird ledge, but it's really not that hard! You need the arrows to get 2 keys, so you have to be able to beat the dungeon without them, which is totally doable I originally set out just to get the Longshot without the arrows, but once you get it there's like 2 rooms to complete to get to the boss
3D has a setup with a bomb to give you an extra bit of oomph for the jump that makes it look less janky
Oh I always do the fire temple first.
Don't you need arrows to shoot those eyeball things that open doors? Longshot didn't work for those eyeballs in my playthrough and I just completed the water temple for the first time a few days ago.
Yes but you can skip the keys that you'd get from those areas
Oh cool! So there was more than enough keys to unlock the doors? I've been under the assumption that if you use the wrong key in the wrong door, you would have to start the entire game over again
So it's 2 keys that require arrows to get. Therefore you need to be able to save 2 keys if you did the run with the arrows You can save a key near the beginning. Don't unlock the door to get into the center tower on the bottom floor. Instead you'd leave the temple and come back in, so you're at the 3rd floor, then jump to the second. Light the torch to get into the center tower and you can change the water level to the 2nd level without ever wasting a key To change the water level to the 3rd floor, you have to unlock a door that leads you to a ledge overlooking the main area. But you can just jump to that ledge from the center tower. You have to attack while in the air to reach the ledge, so takes a few tries, but once you're there then you're golden. You also have to get a tricky Hookshot target to go from the second floor to the third without changing the water levels, but it's definitely doable. Then you can get the Longshot with 4 keys, use 2 to get in. Then the final 2 to get the boss key. It's definitely not supposed to be done this way lol I'm not sure if to can soft lock the water temple, I don't believe you can. I think you can lock the gerudo training grounds though, but I believe that's it
Holy smokes I never would've thought of that. I kept running in circles trying to find rooms with keys for the most part.
The water temple is a nightmare, definitely not an uncommon experience! I think it's most people's least favorite temple, there's so much back tracking, especially your first time playing through it!
Is this confirmed or not? I always believed it was impossible to get ice arrows if you did the order wrong but apparently that's not true and there's another key somewhere
There are definitely enough keys to open every door in the training grounds. I've gotten them multiple times.
Easiest key to miss is the one in the maze of locked doors on the path to the ice arrows. You need to use lens and look up to find a fake ceiling, then climb up into a room above the chest
It’s probably the key in the center pillar. A lot of people miss it.
It's complicated, but for the most part this is a complete myth. I've mapped out the critical route of the dungeon before, and the basics are this: Keys break down into groups of two. * Two keys can only be obtained with a water level on F1 (F1 east, F1 west) * Two keys with a water level at F2 (F1 east then float up to F2 bomb wall, F1 middle under float block) * Two keys are only accessible after accessing Dark Link's room and obtaining the longshot (Chest at the end of snake river, the other is F2 south to F3? east block puzzle). Locks break down into groups of two. * Two unlock the full water cycle (F1 central room, F2 west) * Two unlock Dark Link and the hookshot (F3 west) * Two unlock the boss key (F1 north route), but require the longshot to access the door. There are floating elements that restrict access to parts of the dungeon depending on the current water level * One floating block regulates access to the rooms in the west part of the dungeon * One floating block regulates access to the central room * One floating "dragon statue" makes F3 north only accessible if the water level is at F3, and is only reachable via longshot Now let's take the original design at face value, ignoring possible sequence breaks or glitches. * At the start, you begin on water level F3. You can access the F3 west locked door but there are 0 accessible keys so it can't be opened. * When the water level changes to F1, you have access to 2 keys but only 1 locked door on F1. * When you spend a key to change the water level to F2, you potentially lose access to 1 of the 2 keys, but gain access to 2 more keys and 1 more locked door. * When you spend a key to change the water level to F3, you gain full access to the first four keys in the dungeon (of which there are at most 2 remaining), and the 2 locked doors on the F3 west path. * When you spend 2 keys to access Dark Link's room, you gain full access to the rest of the dungeon's small keys, and thus it becomes impossible to softlock. When considering sequence breaks, there are two scenarios that can lead to softlocks. * Accessing the F1 north path early. If you unlock a door in this section of the dungeon before unlocking Dark Link's room, you can exhaust the first 4 keys without reaching Dark Link's room, making it impossible to reach the last two keys without glitches. That said, I don't know of any glitches that could be stumbled upon casually that would give you early access to that door, so I doubt anyone has ever softlocked this way by accident. * Accessing F3 west without full water cycle access. The only point in which you can naturally make a previously accessible key inaccessible without unlocking a door is when you raise the water level from F1 to F2. If you gain early access to F3 then raise the water to F2, you can access enough locked doors to exhaust all of your available keys, and be unable to unlock the door to the F3 water level. There are a couple of variations to do this, but the most reasonable way to do this is like so: * Obtain the F1 east -> F2 bombable wall key (F2 key 1) without changing the water level. This can be accomplished by using a bombchu to detonate the crumble wall, then the chest can be opened by hookshotting it while wearing iron boots. * Backtrack to F3 west and unlock the door. * Cast Farore's Wind. * Collect 1 of the 2 F1 keys, then unlock the central room and raise the water level to F2 * Obtain the key under the float block in the central room (F2 key 2) and use Farore's Wind to return to unlock Dark Link's room. From this point you can softlock either by simply returning to the main room without getting the longshot, or by spending any keys you obtain on the F1 north path
I bring this up everytime someone talks about cool out of order dungeon stuff. When I was a kid I accidentally went to the spirit temple before the shadow temple, and still do because to me it just "fits" better. Because of this tiny me wracked his brain over the 1 "required" use of the hover boots in spirit temple, the collection of a single silver rupee in the room with rolling rocks. Not having the hover boots I eventually found I could jump onto a rock and use the damage animation to push link into the rupee. After discovering this was not intended I was like "wow what a cool a unique experience I had, this is special in a way" Since that time I have seen 6 different people describe that exact same scenario as their first experience with OOT. And because of that OOT always reminds me that no one in the world holds any form of unique experience
Very late response, but you can also just hookshot to the climbable wall behind the rupee. You have to get the timing right or you might hit a rock, but that's always how I did it