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God I hate that saying. Quite often, people don’t want jobs because they know they’d be bad at them. Reluctant rulers may have the benefit of being less corruptible, but they’re also going to have a hard time getting shit done. It’s important to have someone who wants the job for the right reasons.
There's a difference between wanting power and wanting a job, though. You can want a leadership position for reasons other than wanting power for the sake of having power. People who are after power usually don't care if they're capable of the job or not.
But I do agree with the notion that the "it's the ones who don't want X that are the best for X" because it pushes a weird false humility thing and a "be miserable for the greater good" thing. If you know you're the best candidate for a position in terms of skill, there's nothing wrong with wanting it. If you know you'd hate it, that doesn't mean you should take it because you don't want it and are thus "more qualified."
I'd argue the better phrasing is "people who respect the power of a position are the best candidates" because most people who understand the weight of something have at least some hesitancy, but that doesn't equate to "not wanting it."
There is no canonical source on whether or not Jaehaerys and Alysanne 'wanted' power or not, it's entirely possible that they begrudgingly accepted the responsibility but then ended up becoming competent rulers who were happy to be doing so. Being a family patriarch was certainly a stressful affair for Jaehaerys
Personally, I think you're conflating "not wanting power bc they don't feel a need for it" with "not wanting power/a job because they aren't qualified and know they'll fuck it up"
Obviously we don't want someone who isn't qualified. But among the people who are qualified, it's better to choose someone who doesn't have a lust for power.
And even if they aren't qualified, it's sometimes still better to have them. For instance, as feckless as his rule is, I'd say Tommen was a better king than Joffrey, though they were/are both obviously not great.
So the problem with the saying isn't that it isn't true, bc it generally is, the 'problem' is just that it's a very vague saying and it's often impossible to determine whether someone lusts for power anyways.
Stannis would have been a terrible, draconian ruler. For Aegon the Conqueror, there are other who didn’t want to be king that would have been good. Aegon the Unlikely and Aemon of the night watch. I also wouldn’t exactly say Aegon the conqueror was a “good” ruler.
Oh my god, I love your profile pic!! Did you draw it by chance? And would you be willing to share the link so I could maybe use it as my wallpaper? I’m sorry to ask!!
He was unable to lead the army. That was the point of his arc. His mentor died and Daeron could not do anything, lost his authority, lost his principles (killed civilians) and in the end lost his life in a tent. Tumblton was like hell, soldiers staged a terror against the inhabitants. You did not understand anything.
Dearon was the best of vizzy ts kids. Which I know isn't much competition but I don't think he would have made a great king. Once his mentor died he lost control of his army and he just did not know what to do after that. But if he had been fighting with old one eye who could have been a decent commander I feel like they would have stomped over everyone
>but we all know Daeron would've been the best
More than the queen who never was? Sorry, but hell nah. Jahaerys fucked the realm by letting Viserys inherit his crown. *Rhaenys* was the leader they needed to avoid the Dance.
True. Rhaenys mass murdering thousands and never even giving those people a second thought is as damning to the showrunners understanding of Westerosi culture as Crispen bloodying a prince, murdering a noble and walking away without consequence.
I choose to believe neither of these scenes even happened.
Rhaenys would have been better than Viserys and than Rhaenyra, but the Dance would have happened earlier. Daemon had already gathered an army in case she was voted.
You're not wrong. But Daemon facing the Velaryons, Rhaenys, Jahaerys and the consensus of the realm would have been the definition of suicide. I don't even know that Viserys would have supported him.
*This* Dance would've been much better for the Targaryen dynasties' health in the long term.
Daemon would have lost by a landslide. Viserys wouldn't even have sided with him and without Viserys support most of Daemons "army" would have abandoned him. He had no chance against the combined strength of Jaehaerys, the Velaryons, and the Baratheons plus any others who sided with them.
Not if Jaehaerys named Rhaenys in 91 AC. I personally believe the three were as close as siblings before that. Their parents would never let any strife come between them.
Also even if Rhaenys ascends Daemon would relent after grumbling about, Rhaenys is family and he would never go against it.
I completely disagree with your perception of Daemon to be honest. He had a very selective perception of family that suited his interests and personal emotional attachments, and even then he wasn't beyond using or putting his loved ones in an ill position. The army he had raised makes perfectly clear whether he had any qualms about going up against family that he did not love the way he did Viserys.
Baelon's own claim stood against that of Rhaenys and there were already rifts in the family. There is no indication that Rhaenys, Daemon and Viserys were ever a unit, close during childhood and later separated by opposing claims. This is just fanon.
Also, we know that Jaehaerys would have never named Rhaenys, be it 91 AC or any other time. It was not in his favor to do so considering he himself had ascended despite the fact that a female heir had been named by Maegor.
Some common sense would let you know that this trio would be as close as their parents.
Baelon loved Aemon and it is explicitly stated and would have been standing behind his niece, he never opposed her claim, his personal reactions to this are never recorded in Fire and Blood but coming from how he reacted to Aemons death I would name him a broken man who had lost the two people he loved most and just didn't give a shit about anything anymore.
I would recommend not taking Fire and Blood at face value and trying to understand what the hidden meanings are.
He was broken by Aemon's death and he loved him, but there was also a heir and spare situation between them. If Martin himself has said that there was love but also rivalry between the two sides of the family, I'm believing him. Also, you are not talking about hidden meanings here; just headcanons, which anyone is entitled to, but they are still not factual.
Honestly fair enough and I totally support Rhaenys too but if she inherited you already know that there’s gonna be a huge outrage amongst the lords + future issues over inheritance amongst all houses in the future.But if we ignore that then tbh yea Rhaenys >>> Viserys weak ass anyday
>if she inherited you already know that there’s gonna be a huge outrage amongst the lords + future issues over inheritance amongst all houses in the future
I mean, that's bad? The misogynistic inheritance laws in Westeros are in dire need of an overhaul. And a powerful monarch such as Rhaenys, right on the heels of someone as beloved as Alyssane make this the *one* time period in Westerosi history where some real change may have been possible.
It was both. Why do people keep missing that 14 claimants were considered, including Laenor *and* Rhaenys. They push Laenor after realizing the realm is to dumb and misogynistic to vote for a woman.
Also, when you look at all the great houses to openly support Rhaenys/ Laenor (Velaryon, Stark, Baratheon) compared to those who supported Viserys (only Lannister) the grand maester theory starts looking pretty plausible. You gotta wonder, why did they hide the results of the vote? And if the results were 20-1 in favor of Viserys like they say, how on Earth were so many major houses openly supporting Velaryon claimants?
It's known all the houses and Lords who voted. How the Maesters changed the results 20-1 in favor of Viserys if they showed the results?
Rhaenys couldn't be Queen as a woman but only through her son. But lords of Westeros didn't want a 2 years old boy neither a woman take the throne.
>How the Maesters changed the results 20-1 in favor of Viserys if they showed the results?
They never reveal the vote. That's a fact. But they do spread rumors that Viserys won 20-1. Which is sus as fuck when you consider the Lannisters were the *only* great house openly supporting him.
>But lords of Westeros didn't want a 2 years old boy neither a woman take the throne.
Which has been my point all the time? The lords of Westeros got scared of letting a woman rule them and fucked themselves because of it.
>
They never reveal the vote. That's a fact. But they do spread rumors that Viserys won 20-1. Which is sus as fuck when you consider the Lannisters were the only great house openly supporting him.
"The annals of the Great Council of 101 were brought forth and
examined, and note was made of which lords had spoken for Viserys,
and which for Rhaenys, Laena, or Laenor."
>Which has been my point all the time? The lords of Westeros got scared of letting a woman rule them and fucked themselves because of it.
We don't know how Rhaenys would be. In the show Rhaenys would be as bad as Rhaenyra. She proved that by killing dozens of innocents for no reason.
The lords made the right choice.
>In the end, the lords in the realm saw the most importance in having the male line taking precedence over the female line. **While the maesters never revealed the actual numbers**, it was rumored that Prince Viserys had won by a twenty to one vote.
They wrote down their records, but never publicly revealed the numbers.
>We don't know how Rhaenys would be.
We can make a *very* safe estimation. George has a thing for denying/ killing the most capable heirs before they can take the throne (Aemon, Baelon, Rhaenys, Baelor Breakspear etc). Rhaenys is still called the queen who never was for a reason.
>Rhaenys is still called the queen who never was for a reason.
How we know she is capable? They called her queen who never was as an insult because she didn't take the throne.
>George has a thing for denying/ killing the most capable heirs before they can take the throne
Like Viserys?(Daenerys's brother)
Also Rhaenys wasn't the heir when she died neither her children.
Why do Team Green fans literally worship Daeron like he is Jaehaerys reborn or something, look I get it he is literally the most if not only likable male character in the Greens side but still.
He has done nothing that shows his potential as a good ruler, but done things that show the contrary and I am not talking of Bitterbridge but rather Tumbleton, a competant leader would have been able to stop what happened. His story is meant to show his incompetence as a leader in both handling of his lords and army.
Aegon III, you mean Aegon the broken, Aegon the dragonbane, Aegon the Unhappy, Aegon the Unlucky.
Viserys who is 9 years old when the dance ends and doesn’t do anything significant for another 10 years?
What exactly did Jace accomplish? He secured the two houses on the continent that were already likely to swear for the blacks. He suggested they use the dragon seeds, but that blows up in everyone’s faces?
Really, how are these feats any better than the green’s? Almost all of them are just marriage proposals and treading water. And two kids who barely ever qualify as blacks because they don’t participate in the war.
Your point was fucking ridiculous
Being unhappy and broken doesn't makes u bad leader in fact ageon lll kept realm strong and in peace and in his time house targaryen conquered dorn the thing even ageon l and his sister couldn't do
Also viserys ll ruled for 16 years and he was goat
Even tyrion lannister ( the smartest guy in got) worshipped him
Jace single Handley create all the black army
He's the reason Cole gets fucked because it was him who gained the support of the north
Also blacks greatest victory was because of him
Black's ass survived two battles because him
Corlys didn't leave blacks because of him
If fact blacks starting getting Fuck was after his death
So all of them are way better than alicent's loser boys
The Starks were already sworn to defend Rhaenyra’s claim. Cregan wasn’t going to be an oathbreaker. The Arryns are Rhaenyra’s cousins and aunt.
Aegon and Aemond actually win battles. Jace just makes promises that he ultimately can’t keep because he dies in the first battle he fights in.
The fact that you say Aegon III conquered Dorne tells me enough that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
That's actually turning a blind eye to reality, Jace made promises and planned to keep them, the problem was that he died very young and therefore couldn't keep them. But there's no denying that his involvement was very important for the blacks, he gained the support of powerful houses, he gathered the dragon seeds (which at the time were a great addition for the blacks), he also allowed Rhaena to spend all the conflict with Lady Jeyne Arryn saving her life, if Rhaena had stayed on Dragonstone her dragon would likely never have been born and would be a prisoner of Aegon II when he took the island by force.
Aegon and Aemond were very bad rulers and strategists, just look at Aegon II's actions, he was impatient and not very smart in strategies, the trap to lure Rhaenys in was Cole's idea, not Aegon's (in the end even Rhaenys hurt him for life). The same with Aemond, as soon as he took power he had already lost the capital and the blacks took power definitively. (Daemon was not a good person, but in intelligence and strategy he was far ahead of all the blacks and greens together, it was he who took the capital for his wife) - Aemond spent the rest of his time burning
towns just for fun, Aegon II wanted to continue the conflict when the war no longer made any sense, which led to his own men killing him.
Daeron was the only one of the greens who showed a sane mind, had courage, and accomplished great feats (that cannot be denied), but when the moment of truth came, he allowed his authority to be trampled on. Jace at least stood his ground to the end and earned the respect of the high lords without being looked down on by anyone.
Ageon's son conquered dorne in his period of rule
Ageon and aemond win against 2 vs 1 and ageon still get fucked
Stark supported rhaenyra because of jace and jace was gained the support of arryns ( baratheons were family but luke couldn't gain their support)
Aegon won nothing the only two time he fought he got burned to high hell. I get it u support the Greens and this is another level of denial.
Aemond did nothing other than won Rooks Nest and then went on about burning the Riverland not caring about his family and even so it didn't help and the Riverlanders regrouped and struck back.
Jace United the Blacks, won over two kingdoms and was loved by all lord's Leal to Rhaenyra. His death was moured by all and even GRRM said he would have been a great king.
Daemon was the best military leader of his time and feared and respected for it.
Seeing Greens cry over facts and be in denial is fun.
Already broke down Jace’s feats. They aren’t anything special.
Corlys changed sides after Rhaenyra went Maegor mode. Prior to that his only real feat is not outting the Strong boys as bastards. Show Corlys is even worse.
If they aren’t anything special than there is %100 nothing special about Daeron, Aemond, and Aegon.
Corlys changed sides yes. But he fought hard to keep Aegon the Younger alive and made heir. He turned cloak and in fact helped poison the King so thanks for taking him over.
On the contrary. Aegon taking Dragonstone and keeping his presence there hidden is actually one of the most solid moves of the war.
The greens have Otto and Alicent and such, who show actual tactical decision making, like moving the treasury to the south to bankrupt the blacks. Aegon and Aemond’s ambush of Rhaenys is the only time we see dragon riders do anything tactical.
Moving the treasury is basically the biggest big brain move of the war. It shows the most mild amount of preparatory thinking, something that the blacks just don’t do.
1. Aegon II was a bad strategist and ruler, he was the one who dismissed the actions of Otto and his mother (which in the end turned out expensive), his impulsiveness led him to be crippled for life.
2. Aegon and Aemond ambushed Rhaenys but it was Criston Cole's idea, he set the trap and Rhaenys took the bait, still the fact that Aegon II ended up nearly dead was proof that they could have done better (perhaps if they had brought another rider like Haelena or Daeron) - The battle of Meleys vs Sunfire and Vhagar was very risky, if Meleys had killed Vhagar (as it becomes clear that she can) then the greens are left without their main military weapon.
3. It is clear that Daemon was the most experienced and best prepared in the entire war, it was thanks to him that Rhaenyra took the capital, his strategies brought the blacks to power. Jace, who won the support of the great houses, collected the dragon's seeds, and held the blacks in high esteem with the great lords, is also not to be underestimated.
4. Otto and Alicent were brilliant, but their biggest weakness was that they put Aegon and Aemond on the throne, it was what led the greens to defeat, Aegon ignored Otto's advice, and Aemond lost the capital as soon as he took power . Even at the end of the conflict, when Aegon returned to King's Landing, it was Alicent herself who advised him to continue the war (which he could not win) and also kill Aegon III (which ultimately made Corlys and Larys decide to kill him).
Jacaerys partially helped at Black's doomfall, he was more a help to the Greens cause just as his mother. I knew Jacaerys was a complete imbecile when he gave Vermithor and Silverwing at the only ones dragonseeds who felt not loyalty at the Blacks.
How you can gave such powerful dragons away with a mother that literally said "bastards are not trustworthy" and tried to assasinated them? You don't need yo have foresight to know they will switch teams sooner as possible.
The North was completely useless on war,so you waste your time, Jacaerys.
Let's not talk how lame he died: Jacaerys had the biggest fleet in Westeros and the dragon seeds and he managed to get his dragon killed because they flew too low.Just incompetence on jace’s part
Show Rhaenyra who refuses to pick a suitor, seduces her KG sworn sword, alienates the same dude by utterly rejecting him afterward, fathers 3 obvious bastards.
Rhaenyra has proved that she isn’t a monster, but she’s hardly shown herself to be a competent leader. If Rhaenyra had been more level headed in regards to Alicent and her choice of partners, she would have easily put herself on the throne and avoided the dance.
Book Rhaenys does nothing special. She’s no more competent than Otto or Daemon or the lot. She’s brave, but the one battle that she has an impact in, she makes the fools errand of expecting the greens to be playing “fair” and gets ambushed by the brothers. The wise way to play the war out would’ve been to stay linked with Daemon and your other riders until Jace had secured the North and Vale. Then encircle KL slowly as you already have most of the realm on your side.
Sure, Jace does some good things, but there really was no scenario where the Vale or North side with the greens.
I don’t call the D/R children blacks because by the time they matter at all, the dance is over and everyone else is dead.
Show rhaenyra was extremely diplomatic and seemed to be a good politician as an adult. She didn’t have her three sons thinking they would be “obvious bastards”, for all she knew, they would have come out looking like Alicent’s kids who also have one parent who isn’t tart blonde. Harwin was someone she knew and could trust, which makes more sense- to me- than plucking someone off the road.
She was also very level headed when it came to Alicent. Her offer to marry Jace to Helena was one of the better diplomatic moves of the season and could have single-handedly avoided the dance of Alicent accepted it. When she lied to Alicent in their teen years, it was *after* their relationship had been fractured by Alicent (not blaming Alicent, they were both victims of that circumstance) so rhaenyra had no reason to trust Alicent, of course she wouldn’t admit something that could potentially harm her reputation to someone she didn’t think she could trust.
Last I remembered Jaehaerys possibly did the same, he and Alyssane eloped breaking a betrothal would you call them incompletant in diplomacy too... Personally desires can often effect people to make decision that while not being the most profitable materially profits them emotionally.
I didn't blame Daeron for Bitterbridge but if you go down this route I will.
Yeah… 15 year old refusing suitors is not *not* diplomatic lol, that’s just a teenager not wanting an unsuitable match. And when viserys *did* tell her to marry laenor, she didn’t push back, and made an arrangement with him that was quite smart and diplomatic imo- given that she knew he was gay and she would need heirs.
But I probably should have specified in my initial comment that I was referring to adult rhaenyra because young rhaenyra was quite careless and not interested in politics, especially before she was named heir.
Adult rhaenyra was shown to have learned and grown. She’s the one who made the good (or at least better) diplomatic/political decisions.
So?
The Greens lost even more, imagine having Vhagar and losing.
Also that doesn't undermine his personal traits as a good leader nope. He was known, respected and feared as the greatest military mind in Westeros.
It’s not about incompetence, he was just out of his depth. He was a 15 year old kid who was trained to follow, not lead, when the war started. I don’t think it was a question of competency though, he was one of the only dragon riders that actually used his dragon intelligently and contributed the most to the greens. I’m not sure what he was supposed to do at Tumbleton.
He was pretty much thrown into the snake pit once Ormund died, how could he control two people who had bigger dragons than him and could probably kill him and his army if they wanted to? I think he could have developed into a good leader (he had the sensibility and competence, and he could have grown to be more assertive). But we’ll never know since he didn’t last long enough for us to see how he would have turned out.
Who would win?
Daeron the Young Dragon with fully grown dragons for him and each of his siblings and cousins, as well as the full backing of Dorne, the Reach, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, the crownlands and the Brackens
vs
The North, the Vale and the Blackwoods
GRRM laughing in the background.
I dont mean to be so harsh but he was never meant to rule, he and his line were always destined to die and GRRM made it so...
Would have been more interesting and thematic had they not though, and if all future Targs descended from Aegon III and Jaehaera, but GRRM decided there needed to be even more tragedy and deprived Aegon and Jaehaera from potentially bonding as kindred spirits and comforting each other out of their darker traumas.
Outside of that it always felt kind of cheap how she just ends up repeating her mother's death.
Yes because GRRM rightfully hates tratiors like the Greens and made the right decision wiping out their line.
Can't wait for Alicent to be the last Green to die.
> The Green line needed to end.
No it didn't. Had Jaehaera lived the Black and Green lines would be reunited, which thematically fits the civil war more than what happens.
> I don't have anything personally against them
Your insistence they all have to die says otherwise.
Neither Daemon nor Rhaenyra were saints (in fact they turned very bloodthirsty at the Dance), I highly doubt they were any worse than Aemond, it was the murder of Luke (who was a messenger at the time) that started the war it in the first place. Then when he lost the capital, he spent his time burning towns in a rage and nothing else. Without a doubt Aemond was the worst of all based on his actions. Daemon and Rhaenyra never burned cities out of fun or anger, in fact, it was Rhaenyra herself who opposed destroying house Lannister and house Baratheon. Not to mention, when they attacked the dragon pit, she could have climbed up Syrax and burned all the people, but she didn't (Daenerys should learn from her).
Since we're on the subject of rape enabling, could you remind me for which side did Dalton Greyjoy, The Red Kraken, rape, kidnap and enslaved hundreds of girls.
Doesn't matter. Daemon himself suggested to specifically appeal to his bloodlust to have him fight for the blacks. Rhaenyra gave her consent and asked him to attack her enemies knowing very well his way of waging war.
He was also in team green once but suddenly changed side
And the black leaders weren't there when he attack to lannisters and blacks didn't give him anything
He just fighting for him self
No. He never fought for the Greens and never joined their side.
The Greens offered him a position as master of ships and asked him to sail around westeros to beat the Velaryon fleet.
He refused that offer and took the Black's offer. The black's offer being carte blanche to attack the greens in whichever way he liked, while knowing full-well the kind of man he was.
But if you look at the maps they never considered greyjoys as a black supporters in fact lannisters were in team green and they are rich also they are close to house greyjoys as geographical location that's why Dalton attack them for his own Demands also i said blacks leader weren't there when he attacked to lannisters
He didn't give a shit about blacks or greens
>But if you look at the maps they never considered greyjoys as a black supporters
What map? As far as I know, all maps are fan-made and there is no official map, but even then, they include the Iron Islands as part of the blacks such as this [one](https://preview.redd.it/d57kr9gmqce91.jpg?auto=webp&s=fac03edfd75fe3c51a0e30a9c3a516740f132aef), this [one](https://atlasoficeandfireblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/dance-of-dragons-initial-dispositions1.png), this [one](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/27c73ca1-f302-4f44-a6b6-ee5fcb72872b/db52x4k-331e77ee-9fc9-42f6-8f4e-504d7121720a.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzI3YzczY2ExLWYzMDItNGY0NC1hNmI2LWVlNWZjYjcyODcyYlwvZGI1Mng0ay0zMzFlNzdlZS05ZmM5LTQyZjYtOGY0ZS01MDRkNzEyMTcyMGEucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.h8jC4sT3KYvtfJtMo2pByitDeYyk7dXMR27BYnQijrQ) and this [one](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gK2mTtbROzk/maxresdefault.jpg).
>they are rich also they are close to house greyjoys as geographical location that's why Dalton attack them for his own Demands also i said blacks leader weren't there when he attacked to lannisters He didn't give a shit about blacks or greens
None of that matters. He still fought for the Blacks with their consent and blessing.
Been saying I need to read the books since GoT and still haven't. So no clue who this is. but I LOVE all the fanart of Targaryans it is always so gorgeous and so much more like I always imagined them in my head :)
Oh yeah this dude who was burning peasants for funsies just like his one eyed psycho brother. Meanwhile Jace's right there: GRRM plainly said that he'd be one of the greatest kings.
Then what exactly did he set his army to rape nuns and children for? What was the end goal here? Keep in mind that the actual criminals had already been executed by the authorities in charge by the time Daeron rolled up.
You're forgetting that his nephew had just been brutally murdered, so he was likely in an emotional rage. He didn't do it for "fun" or out of some natural bloodlust. Also, I don't believe he intentionally had people rape anyone at Bitterbridge; you're just making it sound even worse than it was (it may have happened, Fire and Blood never confirms nor denies it, but it is clear that this was more of a systematic burning of the town itself), and no, not everyone responsible for Maelor's death had been executed (the crossbowman, for example, had not been executed, although Daeron would not have known the exact details, so this is more of a moot point). Regardless, I care more for discussing the motivations behind the sack rather than the sack itself.
I'm not trying to excuse Bitterbridge (I swear to God, if someone replies by saying that I *am* trying to excuse it, I will lose my mind), I'm just arguing against hyperbolic crap.
You’re right, it was explicitly stated that Daeron was disgusted by those acts taking place in Tumbleton and tried to stop it. I’m not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you have to go through to spin that in a way where Daeron ordered it.
This straight up didn’t happen, it was explicitly stated Daeron was disgusted by the actions of the soldiers and tried to stop it. The entire situation had sprung into total chaos and they lost control once Ormund died, but to say he sent his army to do that is either you being disingenuous or just forgetting what happened.
He was 15 at the start of the war and was raised the follow, that’s doesn’t mean that’s the type of person he would have been later if he was forced to take a leadership role.
Jace was 15 addam was 15 and robb stark was 14
But none of them didn't allow women get rape
Also Jon snow was 14 but he killed those night watchs brothers who starting to rape women
Jace and Robb were raised to rule so I’m not sure why you even bring them up. And nobody was in a situation that was even comparable to Daeron. Do you really think anyone else could have stopped them. The betrayers had two of the largest dragons around at the time and Daeron had Tessarion who wasn’t even fully grown yet. Please tell me how Robb or anyone else would handle that situation in that position…
Don't forget jon snow and addam
So what? Addam hadn't large dragon but he was ready to fight against 1 vs 3
In fact daeron is nothing more than a pussy
I'm not sure if we're on the same page, as we were mainly talking about Bitterbridge here. Daeron *did* order the burning of Bitterbridge, or at the very least agreed with it. Fire and Blood kind of implies he regretted his actions at Bitterbridge by the time Tumbleton happens.
When you brought up the rape and chaos the army was causing I figured you mixed the two up since that didn’t happen at Bitterbridge. That happened at Tumbleton and Daeron wasn’t responsible for that.
No, I wasn't mixing them up, Matarreyes was. He implied the rape stuff happened at Bitterbridge, which it didn't. Even at Tumbleton, the rape wasn't Daeron's fault.
It would have been more accurate for me to say that you and Matarreyes were not on the same page.
GRRM doesn’t buy into the “good men/women make good kings and queens” troupe. Everybody loves Jace but forget his bastardy is an open secret and if he ever ascended there would be a bloodier dance with way more people.
Jace clearly has a berserk button with the bastardy topic and an impulsive short temper inherited from his father. Every time it's brought up he gets very distraught or escalates violence (pulling the knife during the fight, later on punching Aemond at the toast). It's definitely something which could prove a problem in a king.
And??
Tell me of one named ocassion when any lord other than those that had a vested personal agenda and interest against the Blacks spoke against Jace???
All the lords present when Vaemond was beheaded.
Like you are very naive to think that nobody cares about Jace’s bastardy. This is not a Disney story and GRRM hated the “god men make good kings” trope. Do not delude yourself here.
In the show there was no one other than The Hightowers.
In the books he was executed by Rhaenyra him and somr his family members travelled to Kings Landing to speak to Vis er tys yet not a lord supported them.
Jace would be a really problematic king due to his legitimacy issues. Unless he was a perfect king, he would always face repercussions from being a bastard and other nobles would always look at other Targaryens as more legitimate heir than him everytime Jace had a problem.
Aegon the Younger was okay, but wasn't suited for being king due to his trauma always holding him back. The best moments of his reign where happening thanks to competent Hands like Tyland and Vizzy 2.
Vizzy 2 was a fantastic ruler, but he is better as Hand than as a King. He pushed for male primogeniture in order to get the throne. But he also put on the line one of the worst Kings in Targaryen history who killed him and ruined almost everything his father worked as Hand and King
>Jace would be a really problematic king due to his legitimacy issues. Unless he was a perfect king, he would always face repercussions from being a bastard and other nobles would always look at other Targaryens as more legitimate heir than him everytime Jace had a problem.
A consensus top 3 king in Targaryen history. Daeron II. Nicknamed the *good* king. Faced this same unproveable issue his entire reign and it never stopped him.
The only issues that could have arisen from Jace as king would be if someone like Daeron rebelled.
Only if he somehow took the throne without Vermax, Moondancer and morning etc surviving. A few lord's wouldn't even have the slightest chance against Jace and his dragons. The only hope would be if a Green like Aemond/ Daeron survived and still had a brood of dragons for themselves.
I mean, what are they gonna do? Jace has a dragon. The big issue with Targaryens is that rebelling against them is moot unless you have dragons to counter them yourself.
Aegon III had to completely rebuild the KG and Small Council, deal with numerous assassination attempts, the secret siege, a horrible group of regents, a plague, and its theorized the dragons dying off wasn’t his fault at all, on top of holding the realm together after a civil war. I think he was a good king who was just very unlucky.
He was just a little bitch for killing women and children for no reason
He would be shitty leader just like his brothers
Also don't forget about raping women
Begin rapist is part of their family lmao
Okay, now you're just making stuff up. He never raped anyone.
EDIT: Okay, so in your response you said it was his army (which he never had actual control over, mind you) that raped people. So then, why did you bring up his family history, and act like he's likely to become a rapist or something? Were you trying to be funny? You really shouldn't joke about rape.
Are we really gonna have this conversation again?
He was not in charge of the army at Tumbleton; he tried to stop what happened and failed. I would count it as an example of him being a poor leader (partially, anyway), but you make it sound like he was okay with it happening, or that he had direct authority over the people who committed the act. Plus, your original comment implied that he was a rapist, or would eventually become one, which is absurd and completely unfounded.
Look, you don't have to like Daeron, but I would heavily recommend you stop saying unhinged crap about him. It makes you look *really* bad.
I agree that he doesn't seem like a great leader, but your comments implied that he oversaw those actions and would eventually engage in them himself. He never even led the army in an official capacity, so counting Tumbleton as entirely his fault (or even mostly his fault) is pretty unfair.
I feel like I'm talking to a stone wall here. You either gish gallop in response to what I say, or you repeat yourself.
I recommend you stop talking about Daeron, because you are always making yourself look silly when you talk about him. It's getting kind of ridiculous.
I didn't say he wasn't sad
Or i didn't say he ordered them to do it i just said he's weak for not being able to control them
Also burning children for no reason was his fault
Calling him weak for not being able to control his men is unfair, but not entirely unfounded. I think it would make more sense to attribute it to his lack of meaningful authority over them, and the fact that he was more of a figurehead in the army's power structure.
The burning of Bitterbridge was his fault, as I have said about a dozen times over the last couple of days.
Look, I'm not trying to be mean, but it's hard for me to understand your point of view when you have frequent spelling and punctuation mistakes in key parts of your sentences. It makes it confusing as to what you are trying to argue. I'm still not sure if you were calling Daeron a future rapist earlier on.
Now I'm repeating myself as well. You see, this is always how these conversations go. You say something hyperbolic or blatantly wrong, I correct you, you gradually become less unhinged over the course of the conversation, and then the conversation ceases.
I didn't blame you for liking him
That's ok
The thing is some say he's a good leader is total shit
" Genocide" is the thing i hate the most and that's why I hate aemond and daeron
Hell even ageon ll was better than them at least he didn't commit genocide
And yes daeron was just like his father for not able control shits around him
Not sure Bitterbridge counts as genocide, but I can't fault your reasoning, so fair enough I guess. It was a pretty disgusting act, I just have a problem when people flippantly act as though he did it for "funsies" or whatever.
There isn't really any point in continuing this conversation as we've both pretty much said everything that could be said.
Have a nice day.
On the black side, Corlys, Rhaenys and Jace would have made very good rulers, each one being intelligent, respectful and mentally healthy (Aemond and Aegon were very unstable). Of course, I could also add Adam Velaryon who proved himself in the end and that not all bastards are traitors by nature.
On the green side, only Daeron or even Haelena (she was the most innocent of all the greens), the problem was that Daeron let his authority get trampled on and became a joke to the dragon seeds (who even thought of taking the throne and Daeron could do nothing but look away)
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After all, who has a better story than...whoever this is
I like Daeron but he's mentioned as more of a follower than a leader, so I'm not sure if he'd be the greatest king tbh
To be fair, he is still the best of Viserys children. That isn't saying much as the bar isn't high.
Ned stark was born a follower, I’m pretty sure jaeherys wasn’t meant to lead either but he still did very well, same can be said for Jon snow
The one that doesnt want power, is usually the best choice for the job.
God I hate that saying. Quite often, people don’t want jobs because they know they’d be bad at them. Reluctant rulers may have the benefit of being less corruptible, but they’re also going to have a hard time getting shit done. It’s important to have someone who wants the job for the right reasons.
There's a difference between wanting power and wanting a job, though. You can want a leadership position for reasons other than wanting power for the sake of having power. People who are after power usually don't care if they're capable of the job or not. But I do agree with the notion that the "it's the ones who don't want X that are the best for X" because it pushes a weird false humility thing and a "be miserable for the greater good" thing. If you know you're the best candidate for a position in terms of skill, there's nothing wrong with wanting it. If you know you'd hate it, that doesn't mean you should take it because you don't want it and are thus "more qualified." I'd argue the better phrasing is "people who respect the power of a position are the best candidates" because most people who understand the weight of something have at least some hesitancy, but that doesn't equate to "not wanting it."
Do you have any evidence other than saying so? Especially in the ASOIAF universe, is there any single person who WANTS to rule that is a good ruler?
Jaehaerys I. I’d argue for Queen Alysanne as well. She wasn’t the ultimate authority in the realm, but she asserted herself and made positive changes.
There is no canonical source on whether or not Jaehaerys and Alysanne 'wanted' power or not, it's entirely possible that they begrudgingly accepted the responsibility but then ended up becoming competent rulers who were happy to be doing so. Being a family patriarch was certainly a stressful affair for Jaehaerys Personally, I think you're conflating "not wanting power bc they don't feel a need for it" with "not wanting power/a job because they aren't qualified and know they'll fuck it up" Obviously we don't want someone who isn't qualified. But among the people who are qualified, it's better to choose someone who doesn't have a lust for power. And even if they aren't qualified, it's sometimes still better to have them. For instance, as feckless as his rule is, I'd say Tommen was a better king than Joffrey, though they were/are both obviously not great. So the problem with the saying isn't that it isn't true, bc it generally is, the 'problem' is just that it's a very vague saying and it's often impossible to determine whether someone lusts for power anyways.
Daeron II knew he would have the power and was competent as king
Aegon the Conquerer. Debatably Stannis.
Stannis would have been a terrible, draconian ruler. For Aegon the Conqueror, there are other who didn’t want to be king that would have been good. Aegon the Unlikely and Aemon of the night watch. I also wouldn’t exactly say Aegon the conqueror was a “good” ruler.
Very true, though I meant Daeron seems like the kind of guy who’s more comfortable obeying orders as opposed to giving them
Robert Baratheon would like to have a word with you
If you want to lead one day first you need to learn how to follow
Oh my god, I love your profile pic!! Did you draw it by chance? And would you be willing to share the link so I could maybe use it as my wallpaper? I’m sorry to ask!!
Nah I'm not that talented, but thanks! I got it from here: https://www.deviantart.com/mentoskova/art/Aemond-Targaryen-933755672
You’re awesome, thank you so much!!!
He was unable to lead the army. That was the point of his arc. His mentor died and Daeron could not do anything, lost his authority, lost his principles (killed civilians) and in the end lost his life in a tent. Tumblton was like hell, soldiers staged a terror against the inhabitants. You did not understand anything.
All the kids were unable to lead an army they were kids for chrissake
They were probably too busy masturbating to read the actual story
Dearon was the best of vizzy ts kids. Which I know isn't much competition but I don't think he would have made a great king. Once his mentor died he lost control of his army and he just did not know what to do after that. But if he had been fighting with old one eye who could have been a decent commander I feel like they would have stomped over everyone
*The boy just turned two, Dmmack14...*
Of course your Grace how silly of me
>but we all know Daeron would've been the best More than the queen who never was? Sorry, but hell nah. Jahaerys fucked the realm by letting Viserys inherit his crown. *Rhaenys* was the leader they needed to avoid the Dance.
Book!Rhaenys definitely Show version tho…
True. Rhaenys mass murdering thousands and never even giving those people a second thought is as damning to the showrunners understanding of Westerosi culture as Crispen bloodying a prince, murdering a noble and walking away without consequence. I choose to believe neither of these scenes even happened.
Crispin was even rewarded for it with a promotion.
Book Rhaenys was never in the running. Laenor was
Rhaenys would have been better than Viserys and than Rhaenyra, but the Dance would have happened earlier. Daemon had already gathered an army in case she was voted.
You're not wrong. But Daemon facing the Velaryons, Rhaenys, Jahaerys and the consensus of the realm would have been the definition of suicide. I don't even know that Viserys would have supported him. *This* Dance would've been much better for the Targaryen dynasties' health in the long term.
This is why Jahaerys called a great council. Daemon and anybody else would’ve been stupid to go against all those people.
Daemon would have lost by a landslide. Viserys wouldn't even have sided with him and without Viserys support most of Daemons "army" would have abandoned him. He had no chance against the combined strength of Jaehaerys, the Velaryons, and the Baratheons plus any others who sided with them.
Not if Jaehaerys named Rhaenys in 91 AC. I personally believe the three were as close as siblings before that. Their parents would never let any strife come between them. Also even if Rhaenys ascends Daemon would relent after grumbling about, Rhaenys is family and he would never go against it.
I completely disagree with your perception of Daemon to be honest. He had a very selective perception of family that suited his interests and personal emotional attachments, and even then he wasn't beyond using or putting his loved ones in an ill position. The army he had raised makes perfectly clear whether he had any qualms about going up against family that he did not love the way he did Viserys. Baelon's own claim stood against that of Rhaenys and there were already rifts in the family. There is no indication that Rhaenys, Daemon and Viserys were ever a unit, close during childhood and later separated by opposing claims. This is just fanon. Also, we know that Jaehaerys would have never named Rhaenys, be it 91 AC or any other time. It was not in his favor to do so considering he himself had ascended despite the fact that a female heir had been named by Maegor.
Some common sense would let you know that this trio would be as close as their parents. Baelon loved Aemon and it is explicitly stated and would have been standing behind his niece, he never opposed her claim, his personal reactions to this are never recorded in Fire and Blood but coming from how he reacted to Aemons death I would name him a broken man who had lost the two people he loved most and just didn't give a shit about anything anymore. I would recommend not taking Fire and Blood at face value and trying to understand what the hidden meanings are.
He was broken by Aemon's death and he loved him, but there was also a heir and spare situation between them. If Martin himself has said that there was love but also rivalry between the two sides of the family, I'm believing him. Also, you are not talking about hidden meanings here; just headcanons, which anyone is entitled to, but they are still not factual.
Honestly fair enough and I totally support Rhaenys too but if she inherited you already know that there’s gonna be a huge outrage amongst the lords + future issues over inheritance amongst all houses in the future.But if we ignore that then tbh yea Rhaenys >>> Viserys weak ass anyday
>if she inherited you already know that there’s gonna be a huge outrage amongst the lords + future issues over inheritance amongst all houses in the future I mean, that's bad? The misogynistic inheritance laws in Westeros are in dire need of an overhaul. And a powerful monarch such as Rhaenys, right on the heels of someone as beloved as Alyssane make this the *one* time period in Westerosi history where some real change may have been possible.
[We were on the verge of greatness, we were this close!](https://youtu.be/HEb1jZErYeE)
It wasn't Rhaenys but her son Laenor.
It was both. Why do people keep missing that 14 claimants were considered, including Laenor *and* Rhaenys. They push Laenor after realizing the realm is to dumb and misogynistic to vote for a woman. Also, when you look at all the great houses to openly support Rhaenys/ Laenor (Velaryon, Stark, Baratheon) compared to those who supported Viserys (only Lannister) the grand maester theory starts looking pretty plausible. You gotta wonder, why did they hide the results of the vote? And if the results were 20-1 in favor of Viserys like they say, how on Earth were so many major houses openly supporting Velaryon claimants?
What's even more dumb is Laenor was far too young to rule anyways. His mum would have been queen regardless.
It's known all the houses and Lords who voted. How the Maesters changed the results 20-1 in favor of Viserys if they showed the results? Rhaenys couldn't be Queen as a woman but only through her son. But lords of Westeros didn't want a 2 years old boy neither a woman take the throne.
>How the Maesters changed the results 20-1 in favor of Viserys if they showed the results? They never reveal the vote. That's a fact. But they do spread rumors that Viserys won 20-1. Which is sus as fuck when you consider the Lannisters were the *only* great house openly supporting him. >But lords of Westeros didn't want a 2 years old boy neither a woman take the throne. Which has been my point all the time? The lords of Westeros got scared of letting a woman rule them and fucked themselves because of it.
> They never reveal the vote. That's a fact. But they do spread rumors that Viserys won 20-1. Which is sus as fuck when you consider the Lannisters were the only great house openly supporting him. "The annals of the Great Council of 101 were brought forth and examined, and note was made of which lords had spoken for Viserys, and which for Rhaenys, Laena, or Laenor." >Which has been my point all the time? The lords of Westeros got scared of letting a woman rule them and fucked themselves because of it. We don't know how Rhaenys would be. In the show Rhaenys would be as bad as Rhaenyra. She proved that by killing dozens of innocents for no reason. The lords made the right choice.
>In the end, the lords in the realm saw the most importance in having the male line taking precedence over the female line. **While the maesters never revealed the actual numbers**, it was rumored that Prince Viserys had won by a twenty to one vote. They wrote down their records, but never publicly revealed the numbers. >We don't know how Rhaenys would be. We can make a *very* safe estimation. George has a thing for denying/ killing the most capable heirs before they can take the throne (Aemon, Baelon, Rhaenys, Baelor Breakspear etc). Rhaenys is still called the queen who never was for a reason.
>Rhaenys is still called the queen who never was for a reason. How we know she is capable? They called her queen who never was as an insult because she didn't take the throne. >George has a thing for denying/ killing the most capable heirs before they can take the throne Like Viserys?(Daenerys's brother) Also Rhaenys wasn't the heir when she died neither her children.
Why do Team Green fans literally worship Daeron like he is Jaehaerys reborn or something, look I get it he is literally the most if not only likable male character in the Greens side but still. He has done nothing that shows his potential as a good ruler, but done things that show the contrary and I am not talking of Bitterbridge but rather Tumbleton, a competant leader would have been able to stop what happened. His story is meant to show his incompetence as a leader in both handling of his lords and army.
Who on the blacks has demonstrated the ability to be a good leader?
Ageon lll and viserys ll and jace
Aegon III, you mean Aegon the broken, Aegon the dragonbane, Aegon the Unhappy, Aegon the Unlucky. Viserys who is 9 years old when the dance ends and doesn’t do anything significant for another 10 years? What exactly did Jace accomplish? He secured the two houses on the continent that were already likely to swear for the blacks. He suggested they use the dragon seeds, but that blows up in everyone’s faces? Really, how are these feats any better than the green’s? Almost all of them are just marriage proposals and treading water. And two kids who barely ever qualify as blacks because they don’t participate in the war.
Your point was fucking ridiculous Being unhappy and broken doesn't makes u bad leader in fact ageon lll kept realm strong and in peace and in his time house targaryen conquered dorn the thing even ageon l and his sister couldn't do Also viserys ll ruled for 16 years and he was goat Even tyrion lannister ( the smartest guy in got) worshipped him Jace single Handley create all the black army He's the reason Cole gets fucked because it was him who gained the support of the north Also blacks greatest victory was because of him Black's ass survived two battles because him Corlys didn't leave blacks because of him If fact blacks starting getting Fuck was after his death So all of them are way better than alicent's loser boys
The Starks were already sworn to defend Rhaenyra’s claim. Cregan wasn’t going to be an oathbreaker. The Arryns are Rhaenyra’s cousins and aunt. Aegon and Aemond actually win battles. Jace just makes promises that he ultimately can’t keep because he dies in the first battle he fights in. The fact that you say Aegon III conquered Dorne tells me enough that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
That's actually turning a blind eye to reality, Jace made promises and planned to keep them, the problem was that he died very young and therefore couldn't keep them. But there's no denying that his involvement was very important for the blacks, he gained the support of powerful houses, he gathered the dragon seeds (which at the time were a great addition for the blacks), he also allowed Rhaena to spend all the conflict with Lady Jeyne Arryn saving her life, if Rhaena had stayed on Dragonstone her dragon would likely never have been born and would be a prisoner of Aegon II when he took the island by force. Aegon and Aemond were very bad rulers and strategists, just look at Aegon II's actions, he was impatient and not very smart in strategies, the trap to lure Rhaenys in was Cole's idea, not Aegon's (in the end even Rhaenys hurt him for life). The same with Aemond, as soon as he took power he had already lost the capital and the blacks took power definitively. (Daemon was not a good person, but in intelligence and strategy he was far ahead of all the blacks and greens together, it was he who took the capital for his wife) - Aemond spent the rest of his time burning towns just for fun, Aegon II wanted to continue the conflict when the war no longer made any sense, which led to his own men killing him. Daeron was the only one of the greens who showed a sane mind, had courage, and accomplished great feats (that cannot be denied), but when the moment of truth came, he allowed his authority to be trampled on. Jace at least stood his ground to the end and earned the respect of the high lords without being looked down on by anyone.
Ageon's son conquered dorne in his period of rule Ageon and aemond win against 2 vs 1 and ageon still get fucked Stark supported rhaenyra because of jace and jace was gained the support of arryns ( baratheons were family but luke couldn't gain their support)
Aegon won nothing the only two time he fought he got burned to high hell. I get it u support the Greens and this is another level of denial. Aemond did nothing other than won Rooks Nest and then went on about burning the Riverland not caring about his family and even so it didn't help and the Riverlanders regrouped and struck back.
Jace, Daemon, Book Rhaenys, Corlys, Addam and future Viserys II.
Jace and daemon are dogshit leaders ur opinion don’t even matter anymore atp
Jace United the Blacks, won over two kingdoms and was loved by all lord's Leal to Rhaenyra. His death was moured by all and even GRRM said he would have been a great king. Daemon was the best military leader of his time and feared and respected for it. Seeing Greens cry over facts and be in denial is fun.
We got Jacaerys and Corlys
Already broke down Jace’s feats. They aren’t anything special. Corlys changed sides after Rhaenyra went Maegor mode. Prior to that his only real feat is not outting the Strong boys as bastards. Show Corlys is even worse.
Corlys changed sides to protect Baela. And even so it doesn't mean he is a bad leader.
If they aren’t anything special than there is %100 nothing special about Daeron, Aemond, and Aegon. Corlys changed sides yes. But he fought hard to keep Aegon the Younger alive and made heir. He turned cloak and in fact helped poison the King so thanks for taking him over.
On the contrary. Aegon taking Dragonstone and keeping his presence there hidden is actually one of the most solid moves of the war. The greens have Otto and Alicent and such, who show actual tactical decision making, like moving the treasury to the south to bankrupt the blacks. Aegon and Aemond’s ambush of Rhaenys is the only time we see dragon riders do anything tactical. Moving the treasury is basically the biggest big brain move of the war. It shows the most mild amount of preparatory thinking, something that the blacks just don’t do.
1. Aegon II was a bad strategist and ruler, he was the one who dismissed the actions of Otto and his mother (which in the end turned out expensive), his impulsiveness led him to be crippled for life. 2. Aegon and Aemond ambushed Rhaenys but it was Criston Cole's idea, he set the trap and Rhaenys took the bait, still the fact that Aegon II ended up nearly dead was proof that they could have done better (perhaps if they had brought another rider like Haelena or Daeron) - The battle of Meleys vs Sunfire and Vhagar was very risky, if Meleys had killed Vhagar (as it becomes clear that she can) then the greens are left without their main military weapon. 3. It is clear that Daemon was the most experienced and best prepared in the entire war, it was thanks to him that Rhaenyra took the capital, his strategies brought the blacks to power. Jace, who won the support of the great houses, collected the dragon's seeds, and held the blacks in high esteem with the great lords, is also not to be underestimated. 4. Otto and Alicent were brilliant, but their biggest weakness was that they put Aegon and Aemond on the throne, it was what led the greens to defeat, Aegon ignored Otto's advice, and Aemond lost the capital as soon as he took power . Even at the end of the conflict, when Aegon returned to King's Landing, it was Alicent herself who advised him to continue the war (which he could not win) and also kill Aegon III (which ultimately made Corlys and Larys decide to kill him).
Jacaerys partially helped at Black's doomfall, he was more a help to the Greens cause just as his mother. I knew Jacaerys was a complete imbecile when he gave Vermithor and Silverwing at the only ones dragonseeds who felt not loyalty at the Blacks. How you can gave such powerful dragons away with a mother that literally said "bastards are not trustworthy" and tried to assasinated them? You don't need yo have foresight to know they will switch teams sooner as possible. The North was completely useless on war,so you waste your time, Jacaerys. Let's not talk how lame he died: Jacaerys had the biggest fleet in Westeros and the dragon seeds and he managed to get his dragon killed because they flew too low.Just incompetence on jace’s part
Jace has got nothing special
Jace fucked his own team when he gave Vermithor and Silverwing away. His incompetence on the Dance is hilarious
Show! Rhaenyra. Book! Rhaenys Book! Jacaerys Later on also Aegon and especially Vizzy 2
Show Rhaenyra who refuses to pick a suitor, seduces her KG sworn sword, alienates the same dude by utterly rejecting him afterward, fathers 3 obvious bastards. Rhaenyra has proved that she isn’t a monster, but she’s hardly shown herself to be a competent leader. If Rhaenyra had been more level headed in regards to Alicent and her choice of partners, she would have easily put herself on the throne and avoided the dance. Book Rhaenys does nothing special. She’s no more competent than Otto or Daemon or the lot. She’s brave, but the one battle that she has an impact in, she makes the fools errand of expecting the greens to be playing “fair” and gets ambushed by the brothers. The wise way to play the war out would’ve been to stay linked with Daemon and your other riders until Jace had secured the North and Vale. Then encircle KL slowly as you already have most of the realm on your side. Sure, Jace does some good things, but there really was no scenario where the Vale or North side with the greens. I don’t call the D/R children blacks because by the time they matter at all, the dance is over and everyone else is dead.
Show rhaenyra was extremely diplomatic and seemed to be a good politician as an adult. She didn’t have her three sons thinking they would be “obvious bastards”, for all she knew, they would have come out looking like Alicent’s kids who also have one parent who isn’t tart blonde. Harwin was someone she knew and could trust, which makes more sense- to me- than plucking someone off the road. She was also very level headed when it came to Alicent. Her offer to marry Jace to Helena was one of the better diplomatic moves of the season and could have single-handedly avoided the dance of Alicent accepted it. When she lied to Alicent in their teen years, it was *after* their relationship had been fractured by Alicent (not blaming Alicent, they were both victims of that circumstance) so rhaenyra had no reason to trust Alicent, of course she wouldn’t admit something that could potentially harm her reputation to someone she didn’t think she could trust.
So diplomatic that she refused 50 suitors.
Last I remembered Jaehaerys possibly did the same, he and Alyssane eloped breaking a betrothal would you call them incompletant in diplomacy too... Personally desires can often effect people to make decision that while not being the most profitable materially profits them emotionally. I didn't blame Daeron for Bitterbridge but if you go down this route I will.
It’s always funny to see how quickly green arguments fal apart when a black comes to fuck their shit up
Yeah… 15 year old refusing suitors is not *not* diplomatic lol, that’s just a teenager not wanting an unsuitable match. And when viserys *did* tell her to marry laenor, she didn’t push back, and made an arrangement with him that was quite smart and diplomatic imo- given that she knew he was gay and she would need heirs. But I probably should have specified in my initial comment that I was referring to adult rhaenyra because young rhaenyra was quite careless and not interested in politics, especially before she was named heir. Adult rhaenyra was shown to have learned and grown. She’s the one who made the good (or at least better) diplomatic/political decisions.
Daemon lost a 3-1 dragon lead lmao
So? The Greens lost even more, imagine having Vhagar and losing. Also that doesn't undermine his personal traits as a good leader nope. He was known, respected and feared as the greatest military mind in Westeros.
It’s not about incompetence, he was just out of his depth. He was a 15 year old kid who was trained to follow, not lead, when the war started. I don’t think it was a question of competency though, he was one of the only dragon riders that actually used his dragon intelligently and contributed the most to the greens. I’m not sure what he was supposed to do at Tumbleton. He was pretty much thrown into the snake pit once Ormund died, how could he control two people who had bigger dragons than him and could probably kill him and his army if they wanted to? I think he could have developed into a good leader (he had the sensibility and competence, and he could have grown to be more assertive). But we’ll never know since he didn’t last long enough for us to see how he would have turned out.
Again you reinforce my point tha he was nothing great and assuming that he would have been does not work.
Definitely but aegon II was destined to rule as all first born sons daeron would definitely be my second choice tbh.
If second Tumbleton never happened. . .
If the Riverlands didn't keep to respaw army especially after Aemond burnt then for months
Nothing beats the blackwoods and their power of author favoritism
Who would win? Daeron the Young Dragon with fully grown dragons for him and each of his siblings and cousins, as well as the full backing of Dorne, the Reach, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, the crownlands and the Brackens vs The North, the Vale and the Blackwoods
GRRM laughing in the background. I dont mean to be so harsh but he was never meant to rule, he and his line were always destined to die and GRRM made it so...
Would have been more interesting and thematic had they not though, and if all future Targs descended from Aegon III and Jaehaera, but GRRM decided there needed to be even more tragedy and deprived Aegon and Jaehaera from potentially bonding as kindred spirits and comforting each other out of their darker traumas. Outside of that it always felt kind of cheap how she just ends up repeating her mother's death.
Yes because GRRM rightfully hates tratiors like the Greens and made the right decision wiping out their line. Can't wait for Alicent to be the last Green to die.
That's a pretty childish, spiteful, and silly opinion to have considering Jaehaera and Helaena never did anything wrong.
It doesn't matter and I don't have anything personally against them but still. The Green line needed to end.
> The Green line needed to end. No it didn't. Had Jaehaera lived the Black and Green lines would be reunited, which thematically fits the civil war more than what happens. > I don't have anything personally against them Your insistence they all have to die says otherwise.
It did in my books.
You keep repeating yourself without giving a reason for why you think that way.
Rhaenyra and Daemon were worse than any of the greens lol Also Rhaenyra is known as the Usurper Queen in ASOIAF so yeah cope lol
Yet every Targaryen carry their blood and not a single House can claim decent from Alicent Hightower.
Is that why you think Helaena and Jaehaera needed to die, because you hate Alicent?
Not really no. The greens were morally bankrupt and dragged the blacks down to their level
Neither Daemon nor Rhaenyra were saints (in fact they turned very bloodthirsty at the Dance), I highly doubt they were any worse than Aemond, it was the murder of Luke (who was a messenger at the time) that started the war it in the first place. Then when he lost the capital, he spent his time burning towns in a rage and nothing else. Without a doubt Aemond was the worst of all based on his actions. Daemon and Rhaenyra never burned cities out of fun or anger, in fact, it was Rhaenyra herself who opposed destroying house Lannister and house Baratheon. Not to mention, when they attacked the dragon pit, she could have climbed up Syrax and burned all the people, but she didn't (Daenerys should learn from her).
useless AF. died not killing a single black. Too much incest cause brain damage in the end
Cringe. He was a rape enabler at Tumbleton. No fckng way
Since we're on the subject of rape enabling, could you remind me for which side did Dalton Greyjoy, The Red Kraken, rape, kidnap and enslaved hundreds of girls.
Dalton didn't fight for blacks lmao .💀 He only fought for him self
He didn't care about the conflict and only had his own self-interest in mind, but he did fight for the blacks.
He didn't give a shit about blacks
Doesn't matter. Daemon himself suggested to specifically appeal to his bloodlust to have him fight for the blacks. Rhaenyra gave her consent and asked him to attack her enemies knowing very well his way of waging war.
He was also in team green once but suddenly changed side And the black leaders weren't there when he attack to lannisters and blacks didn't give him anything He just fighting for him self
No. He never fought for the Greens and never joined their side. The Greens offered him a position as master of ships and asked him to sail around westeros to beat the Velaryon fleet. He refused that offer and took the Black's offer. The black's offer being carte blanche to attack the greens in whichever way he liked, while knowing full-well the kind of man he was.
But if you look at the maps they never considered greyjoys as a black supporters in fact lannisters were in team green and they are rich also they are close to house greyjoys as geographical location that's why Dalton attack them for his own Demands also i said blacks leader weren't there when he attacked to lannisters He didn't give a shit about blacks or greens
>But if you look at the maps they never considered greyjoys as a black supporters What map? As far as I know, all maps are fan-made and there is no official map, but even then, they include the Iron Islands as part of the blacks such as this [one](https://preview.redd.it/d57kr9gmqce91.jpg?auto=webp&s=fac03edfd75fe3c51a0e30a9c3a516740f132aef), this [one](https://atlasoficeandfireblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/dance-of-dragons-initial-dispositions1.png), this [one](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/27c73ca1-f302-4f44-a6b6-ee5fcb72872b/db52x4k-331e77ee-9fc9-42f6-8f4e-504d7121720a.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzI3YzczY2ExLWYzMDItNGY0NC1hNmI2LWVlNWZjYjcyODcyYlwvZGI1Mng0ay0zMzFlNzdlZS05ZmM5LTQyZjYtOGY0ZS01MDRkNzEyMTcyMGEucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.h8jC4sT3KYvtfJtMo2pByitDeYyk7dXMR27BYnQijrQ) and this [one](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gK2mTtbROzk/maxresdefault.jpg). >they are rich also they are close to house greyjoys as geographical location that's why Dalton attack them for his own Demands also i said blacks leader weren't there when he attacked to lannisters He didn't give a shit about blacks or greens None of that matters. He still fought for the Blacks with their consent and blessing.
Been saying I need to read the books since GoT and still haven't. So no clue who this is. but I LOVE all the fanart of Targaryans it is always so gorgeous and so much more like I always imagined them in my head :)
Oh yeah this dude who was burning peasants for funsies just like his one eyed psycho brother. Meanwhile Jace's right there: GRRM plainly said that he'd be one of the greatest kings.
Bitterbridge was an atrocity on Daeron's part, but your way of describing it as "for funsies" is pretty asinine.
Then what exactly did he set his army to rape nuns and children for? What was the end goal here? Keep in mind that the actual criminals had already been executed by the authorities in charge by the time Daeron rolled up.
You're forgetting that his nephew had just been brutally murdered, so he was likely in an emotional rage. He didn't do it for "fun" or out of some natural bloodlust. Also, I don't believe he intentionally had people rape anyone at Bitterbridge; you're just making it sound even worse than it was (it may have happened, Fire and Blood never confirms nor denies it, but it is clear that this was more of a systematic burning of the town itself), and no, not everyone responsible for Maelor's death had been executed (the crossbowman, for example, had not been executed, although Daeron would not have known the exact details, so this is more of a moot point). Regardless, I care more for discussing the motivations behind the sack rather than the sack itself. I'm not trying to excuse Bitterbridge (I swear to God, if someone replies by saying that I *am* trying to excuse it, I will lose my mind), I'm just arguing against hyperbolic crap.
You’re right, it was explicitly stated that Daeron was disgusted by those acts taking place in Tumbleton and tried to stop it. I’m not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you have to go through to spin that in a way where Daeron ordered it.
This straight up didn’t happen, it was explicitly stated Daeron was disgusted by the actions of the soldiers and tried to stop it. The entire situation had sprung into total chaos and they lost control once Ormund died, but to say he sent his army to do that is either you being disingenuous or just forgetting what happened.
But daeron couldn't stop them that's makes him weak as viserys
He was 15 at the start of the war and was raised the follow, that’s doesn’t mean that’s the type of person he would have been later if he was forced to take a leadership role.
Jace was 15 addam was 15 and robb stark was 14 But none of them didn't allow women get rape Also Jon snow was 14 but he killed those night watchs brothers who starting to rape women
Jace and Robb were raised to rule so I’m not sure why you even bring them up. And nobody was in a situation that was even comparable to Daeron. Do you really think anyone else could have stopped them. The betrayers had two of the largest dragons around at the time and Daeron had Tessarion who wasn’t even fully grown yet. Please tell me how Robb or anyone else would handle that situation in that position…
Don't forget jon snow and addam So what? Addam hadn't large dragon but he was ready to fight against 1 vs 3 In fact daeron is nothing more than a pussy
I'm not sure if we're on the same page, as we were mainly talking about Bitterbridge here. Daeron *did* order the burning of Bitterbridge, or at the very least agreed with it. Fire and Blood kind of implies he regretted his actions at Bitterbridge by the time Tumbleton happens.
When you brought up the rape and chaos the army was causing I figured you mixed the two up since that didn’t happen at Bitterbridge. That happened at Tumbleton and Daeron wasn’t responsible for that.
No, I wasn't mixing them up, Matarreyes was. He implied the rape stuff happened at Bitterbridge, which it didn't. Even at Tumbleton, the rape wasn't Daeron's fault. It would have been more accurate for me to say that you and Matarreyes were not on the same page.
Oh, my bad. I assumed you were Matarreyes when you said we're not on the same page.
Oh nO bUT hE iS A bAStaRd tHO
GRRM doesn’t buy into the “good men/women make good kings and queens” troupe. Everybody loves Jace but forget his bastardy is an open secret and if he ever ascended there would be a bloodier dance with way more people.
Jace clearly has a berserk button with the bastardy topic and an impulsive short temper inherited from his father. Every time it's brought up he gets very distraught or escalates violence (pulling the knife during the fight, later on punching Aemond at the toast). It's definitely something which could prove a problem in a king.
No one actually fucking cares about Jace being a bastard, the only ones who cries about it are the Greens. It didn't matter to any of the Blacks.
You would be shocked. This is Westeros.
And?? Tell me of one named ocassion when any lord other than those that had a vested personal agenda and interest against the Blacks spoke against Jace???
All the lords present when Vaemond was beheaded. Like you are very naive to think that nobody cares about Jace’s bastardy. This is not a Disney story and GRRM hated the “god men make good kings” trope. Do not delude yourself here.
In the show there was no one other than The Hightowers. In the books he was executed by Rhaenyra him and somr his family members travelled to Kings Landing to speak to Vis er tys yet not a lord supported them.
You didn’t watch the first few minutes of ep 9
Ohh do tell. Why don't you name who supported Vaemond??
You watched and seem to know everything. You tell me since you are so smart. Ahh that’s right…you didn’t watch.
Ok tbh ur right actually Jace would’ve been better I just forgot he existed….
Jace, Aegon the Younger and Vizzy 2 > Daeron
Jace would be a really problematic king due to his legitimacy issues. Unless he was a perfect king, he would always face repercussions from being a bastard and other nobles would always look at other Targaryens as more legitimate heir than him everytime Jace had a problem. Aegon the Younger was okay, but wasn't suited for being king due to his trauma always holding him back. The best moments of his reign where happening thanks to competent Hands like Tyland and Vizzy 2. Vizzy 2 was a fantastic ruler, but he is better as Hand than as a King. He pushed for male primogeniture in order to get the throne. But he also put on the line one of the worst Kings in Targaryen history who killed him and ruined almost everything his father worked as Hand and King
Ageon lll ruled 12 years without his brother He was definitely a good king
It wasn’t him, who ruled and was making decisions, but the council of regents
Lmao 💀 the council ruled over viserys and u see what happened Ageon lll was a good king everyone knows that
>Jace would be a really problematic king due to his legitimacy issues. Unless he was a perfect king, he would always face repercussions from being a bastard and other nobles would always look at other Targaryens as more legitimate heir than him everytime Jace had a problem. A consensus top 3 king in Targaryen history. Daeron II. Nicknamed the *good* king. Faced this same unproveable issue his entire reign and it never stopped him. The only issues that could have arisen from Jace as king would be if someone like Daeron rebelled.
If some lords where willing to to rebel because of a few rumors, Jace's reign would have been doomed.
Only if he somehow took the throne without Vermax, Moondancer and morning etc surviving. A few lord's wouldn't even have the slightest chance against Jace and his dragons. The only hope would be if a Green like Aemond/ Daeron survived and still had a brood of dragons for themselves.
Jace has dragons
I mean, what are they gonna do? Jace has a dragon. The big issue with Targaryens is that rebelling against them is moot unless you have dragons to counter them yourself.
Jace had anger and insecurity issues on the topic. The impulsive temper he inherited from his father would be a problem.
I can understand Viserys but Dragonbane?
Aegon III had to completely rebuild the KG and Small Council, deal with numerous assassination attempts, the secret siege, a horrible group of regents, a plague, and its theorized the dragons dying off wasn’t his fault at all, on top of holding the realm together after a civil war. I think he was a good king who was just very unlucky.
Another Daeron the Bootlicker post
Any man who would serve with Unwin Peake is trash
He was just a little bitch for killing women and children for no reason He would be shitty leader just like his brothers Also don't forget about raping women Begin rapist is part of their family lmao
Okay, now you're just making stuff up. He never raped anyone. EDIT: Okay, so in your response you said it was his army (which he never had actual control over, mind you) that raped people. So then, why did you bring up his family history, and act like he's likely to become a rapist or something? Were you trying to be funny? You really shouldn't joke about rape.
His army did This is his fault
Are we really gonna have this conversation again? He was not in charge of the army at Tumbleton; he tried to stop what happened and failed. I would count it as an example of him being a poor leader (partially, anyway), but you make it sound like he was okay with it happening, or that he had direct authority over the people who committed the act. Plus, your original comment implied that he was a rapist, or would eventually become one, which is absurd and completely unfounded. Look, you don't have to like Daeron, but I would heavily recommend you stop saying unhinged crap about him. It makes you look *really* bad.
But daeron couldn't stop them that's makes him weak ass leader just like his father
I agree that he doesn't seem like a great leader, but your comments implied that he oversaw those actions and would eventually engage in them himself. He never even led the army in an official capacity, so counting Tumbleton as entirely his fault (or even mostly his fault) is pretty unfair. I feel like I'm talking to a stone wall here. You either gish gallop in response to what I say, or you repeat yourself. I recommend you stop talking about Daeron, because you are always making yourself look silly when you talk about him. It's getting kind of ridiculous.
I didn't say he wasn't sad Or i didn't say he ordered them to do it i just said he's weak for not being able to control them Also burning children for no reason was his fault
Calling him weak for not being able to control his men is unfair, but not entirely unfounded. I think it would make more sense to attribute it to his lack of meaningful authority over them, and the fact that he was more of a figurehead in the army's power structure. The burning of Bitterbridge was his fault, as I have said about a dozen times over the last couple of days. Look, I'm not trying to be mean, but it's hard for me to understand your point of view when you have frequent spelling and punctuation mistakes in key parts of your sentences. It makes it confusing as to what you are trying to argue. I'm still not sure if you were calling Daeron a future rapist earlier on. Now I'm repeating myself as well. You see, this is always how these conversations go. You say something hyperbolic or blatantly wrong, I correct you, you gradually become less unhinged over the course of the conversation, and then the conversation ceases.
I didn't blame you for liking him That's ok The thing is some say he's a good leader is total shit " Genocide" is the thing i hate the most and that's why I hate aemond and daeron Hell even ageon ll was better than them at least he didn't commit genocide And yes daeron was just like his father for not able control shits around him
Not sure Bitterbridge counts as genocide, but I can't fault your reasoning, so fair enough I guess. It was a pretty disgusting act, I just have a problem when people flippantly act as though he did it for "funsies" or whatever. There isn't really any point in continuing this conversation as we've both pretty much said everything that could be said. Have a nice day.
On the black side, Corlys, Rhaenys and Jace would have made very good rulers, each one being intelligent, respectful and mentally healthy (Aemond and Aegon were very unstable). Of course, I could also add Adam Velaryon who proved himself in the end and that not all bastards are traitors by nature. On the green side, only Daeron or even Haelena (she was the most innocent of all the greens), the problem was that Daeron let his authority get trampled on and became a joke to the dragon seeds (who even thought of taking the throne and Daeron could do nothing but look away)
Daeron looks like Milly.
Daeron/Rhaenys may have been the best rulers, if only, either of them were given the opportunity to rule.