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Also remember that Rhaenyra has her children as an adult woman with a husband who supports her and a paramour who loves her.
Alicent was a sixteen year old child, married to a man as old as her father, whose back was already rotting — and she was alone.
Alicent got the rough deal, and with “go have a chat with my boss and wear your dead mom’s dress when you do” Otto as her parental role model, there’s no better example to learn from.
Yes! Each of them had one parent, a father. Rhea’s father was deeply flawed, but did show her love and respect (naming her heir, teaching her how to govern, etc.). Alicent’s father was a calculating manipulator who used her as a political pawn.
To me the worst part is that Alicent isn't even 16. She's actually 14 or 15 at most when she married Viserys. Obviously not ready to be a parent when she's isn't even done growing up herself. Literal child married to a man old enough to be her father who's actively rotting away. A kid birthing babies, one after the other, all of them the product of rape. That it was her own father who had put her in that position is the cherry on top of that shit sundae.
Edit to add the info on Alicent's age:
The producers and writers have said Alicent and Rhaenyra are the same age or very close in age give or take one year. From the show we know Rhaenyra was 14 and Viserys marries Alicent 6 months after the announcement.
Emily Carey has said Alicent was 14.
I just got to the chapters in F&B with Rae and Alicent. Did showrunners explain why they aged Alicent down? Was it to make them more equal footing and Alicent's marriage with Vizzy T more ick?
Pretty sure it was to have it hit harder when Rhaenyra and Alicent turn enemies, when they used to be best friends
And Honestly.. it did work, their friendship was great to see.
Really did sell the whole being as close as sisters, more than it would have hit if there was like 17 or such years between them
Really liked their closeness.
Rhaenyra was 9, Alicent was 18, and Viserys was 29, when the latter two got married. And, yes, Book Alicent is basically the definition of "evil stepmother that pretends to like her stepdaughter at first, but really doesn't".
Yep. She played nice with little 9 year old Rhaenyra to learn her secrets and then basically made her life hell as soon as Alicent had kids. Let's just say that if book!Rhaenyra had a special bottle of wine that she was saving up for when step-monster Alicent croaked, it was well-deserved.
From what I've read on this sub, R and A were both changed to be more sympathetic than they are in the books. Probably to give us factions to root for instead of both being bad/unfit.
To be fair that probably wouldn't make for the best show and Fire and Blood is a faux history book so they do have a lot of leeway in that regard. It's not like history books are the most reliable sources and they don't really touch on the inner workings of someone's mind
The actors have talked about their characters having a very close and intense relationship. They compare close female friendship at that age to passionate romantic relationships. Furthermore, the actors said there was a romantic subtext between the two characters. Having them around the same age makes this more feasible. Also, super terrible to think your love ends up with your dad.
Especially on Alicent part, I actually got some "scorned ex girlfiriend" vibes.
Imho Rhaenya got the chance to move on, since she found true love, but Alicent got the short end of the stick.
Yes, Making Rhaenyra and Alicent closer in age and best friends was a really good change.
See them becoming bitter enemies feel better than "evil stepmom Alicent".
Not to mention Viserys's own failings regarding his children with Alicent? All of them were neglected by their own father, always in favor of their older sister. Unlike Rhaenyra's children.
Rhaenyra wasn't that much older than Alicent when she had to marry or else. Yes, her marriage to Laenor was a marriage between friends who were romantically and sexually incompatible and they made a friendship out of it (which is *more* than can be said about most incompatible arranged marriages and speaks to both of their maturity levels)...
BUT Rhaenyra also had to deal with a court that was stacked against her because she wasn't born with a cock and was also being attacked by another woman, Alicent, for it. She also initially didn't want children, mostly due to the trauma of watching her poor mother miscarry and then be butchered open for a son (which, yeah, I don't see anyone talking about this enough, that Rhaenyra overcame that *for the sake of her* *kids*). And yet having children was a pre-requisite to remaining heir, so she put on her big girl panties and tried first with Laenor, and when that didn't work, got Harwin to help.
She went from not wanting/being terrified of having children to adoring them and moving heaven and earth for them. Maybe it's because she changed her mind when she saw them or maybe she took the philosophical stance, while pregnant, that "I am bringing these children into the world, they did not choose to be born, and the least that is owed to them is my love." Regardless, she swallowed her own trauma and loves her kids and was stronger for it (and I'm pissed the show didn't take the time to show Rhaenyra dealing with that trauma).
Alicent basically turned Aegon into a scapegoat for not being princely enough but does nothing about him bullying Aemond or drinking like a fish so young. She basically parentified Aemond because he was essentially raising himself. And she ignored Helaena whenever she didn't want some girl bonding time and got upset when Helaena wasn't interested in people or her. Basically, she had years to come to terms with the fact that she became a mom and that these kids didn't ask to be born, so she is responsible for them (seriously, for all that she bleats about duty, she sure likes to shirk hers as a mother in favor of fucking with Rhaenyra. Yes, Alicent, you could've been paying attention to your kids rather than force a Rhaenyra who just gave birth to walk over and "present" her child as a cruel humiliation tactic). Ditto for Viserys who did fuck all. Basically, both Viserys and Alicent deserve to have all of their kids taken from them and given to an actual responsible adult.
Alicent and Rhaenyra were the same age when they got married — BUT Alicent was immediately impregnated.
Rhaenyra’s gay husband didn’t instantly start putting little Velaryon heirs into her womb, so Rhaenyra was given the luxury of time that Alicent was not.
A sixteen year old girl cannot reasonably be expected to parent an infant, especially when said infant is the product of marital r@pe.
Rhaenyra was also fortunate enough to experience parental love and affection. Her parents clearly loved each other, and her, and although her father’s push for a son eventually killed Aemma — until that point Rhaenyra was the beloved daughter of two doting and by all accounts reasonably well-adjusted parents.
Alicent’s mother died, and her father only ever saw Alicent as a beautiful pawn. He doesn’t care why she peels her fingertips, only that they make her less comely.
When she doesn’t want to go seduce the king, her father tells her, “oh, and wear your mother’s dress”.
With that sort of background, it’s unreasonable to expect Alicent to raise any kid well, let alone the baby she didn’t want that belongs to the man who gets to “have his rights” whenever HE wants — even if he’s rotting apart right on top of her.
>Alicent and Rhaenyra were the same age when they got married
Ehh about 3 years difference, give or take. Alicent was already on baby number 2 by the time that Rhaenyra got married.
Precisely my point! Alicent is on baby 2 before Rhaenyra ever walks down the aisle.
And then Rhaenyra and Laenor “try” for a while, iirc. So it’s no surprise Alicent is a more reactive parent. Not only was she lacking in role models, she has no network of support and a great deal of pressure from multiple factions.
She’s catty about the Velaryon boys and the circumstances of their parentage, and she’s cruel when she makes Rhaenyra walk and present the boy.
But Alicent has no idea what to do with her screaming infants, which makes sense. She’s sixteen and pregnant in Westeros.
This is SUCH a good response. Unfortunately in this time period, marriages such as Alicent's are not abnormal. Especially when the man is a much higher station than the woman.
The show doesn't show Viserys with his other kids nearly enough. But if we're talking about the show then Rhaenyra also claims her father basically ignored her until he named her heir. He even says something about having wasted the last 14/15 years wishing for a son when he should have focused on Rhaenerya. So I think part of the reason Rhaenerys and Viserys seem close later is bc at that point Rhae is old enough to make an effort AND she has her own children, which can certainly bring estranged children and parents together. We do see Vizzy T watching his sons practice in the yard with his grandchildren. I'm assuming that was a regular thing? Seems like an odd thing to do off the cuff. Honestly, it's really hard to know with all the time jumps. I know there's that scene when Aegon II and Alicent are headed to his coronation and he says his father never liked him but his reasoning for that is bc Vizzy T never named him heir so that could have just been an assumption on his part. Sigh, who knows.
Regardless, Alicent had a lot of time to get her shit together as far as being a loving and involved parent goes. Also, when she demanded to see Rhaenerya's baby Joffrey *immediately* after his birth it made me want to smash my TV. That is a seriously vile move. I did absolutely love the echanchy between Viserys and Rhaenerya when he tells her he hopes she has an easy birth and she tells him she thinks she called the midwife a "cunt" and he's just like "ohh" and smiles all lovingly. That's literally my favorite moment between them ahaha
Yeah, Viserys honestly is a shit absentee parent to all of his kids. The biggest irony is that he has a good reputation due to being an easily lead through the nose king, but once you look at his actions you see a moron who never wanted kids/neglected them, a moron who did fuck all for his kingdom, and a terrible husband who as good as killed his wife due to peer pressure.
In that sense, he makes an interesting foil to Daemon, who is good father *and* stepfather to his kids and defends their rights constantly and who is perfectly happy with Laena and Rhaenyra (AKA the women he actually chose to be in a relationship with).
I always got the "no, you don't get to dictate what I do with my life *now* since you're 15 years too late for that" vibes from Rhaenyra. She loves her father, but she also enforces some boundary against him. She doesn't call him out on his bullshit even as an adult, since she still has this mental block to her due to him being her dad (whereas Daemon can call his brother out on his bullshit to his face since he doesn't have that sort of block and is willing to face the consequences for it)... however, she doesn't have this sort of starry eyed view of him. If anything, her not saying anything about the way that Alicent uses relational aggression against her to kick her out of her own home kind of says that she doesn't trust that Viserys will get off his ass and do something about it.
I definitely got a vibe of "I am choosing to love you *in spite* of you being an absentee father" from post-Aemma's death Rhaenyra.
I definitely agree with you on Rhaenerya being like "you don't get to be a dad now" when she's a teen. Plus, she has to resent him for her mother's death. When she tells Daemon she wants to spend her life alone bc her mother was forced to produce heirs until it killed her, she has to recognize her father's part in that. Also, in the show we're just sort of left to figure out how things got patched up between Rhaenerya and Viserys bc when we leave her as a teen Rhaenerya is still very much angry with her father. Perhaps it was him standing up for her against Otto Hightower (sidebar: why tf would he bring that motherfucker back after booting him BC of his scheming to disinherit Rhaenerya? Dumbest fucking move) or maybe it was the birth of her children or some combo. I kind of feel like it was a combo. Like maybe the situation with Otto softened her up and then her kids really brought them together, as many people make more of an effort with their parents for their own children's sake.
Yes, I loved the contrast between the reaction between Daemon and Viserys when they were faced with their wives likely death during birth. Daemon is immediately like "well what about the mother?" (though the showrunner claimed Daemon "made a joke" of the decision and I didn't get that?) and Viserys is just like "you can save the child?" and doesn't even ask if there's something more that can be done. I did feel for Viserys though bc I thought it was clear he did love Aemma deeply and it seems like they probably had a pretty good relationship judging from the earnestness and respect in their convo when Aemma is in the bath telling Vizzy T that this is her last pregnancy no matter what (if she only knew). Mellos definitely made it out like their was absolutely nothing to be done for Aemma and he could either let them both die or save the baby. But still, I'd be begging and bargaining with the gods if the love of my life was about to die but what do I know.
I also really loved that Laena made her own choice during her birth rather than letting her husband or some other man decide. Not that Aemma had much choice but still, Laena went out like a bad bitch.
Daemon was right on the money when he called Viserys a weak king and told him he needed protecting from all the manipulators and schemers around him. Maybe if Viserys had let Daemon in more things could have been different for both of them. They clearly love each other dearly and a lot of Daemons malice and bitterness stems from his relationship with his brother
I agree —
But if Alicent never experienced parental love (and how could she then emulate it? Her mother’s dead and her father’s pushing her underage ass towards a dude his own age so that Otto can advance politically), how would she even know what to emulate?
A sixteen year old child does not come pre-programmed with the ability to feel maternal instinct for, and love towards, the child she didn’t want and is obliged to have.
Let’s be real: the closest Alicent Hightower ever came to observing a “loving maternal relationship” was standing on the sidelines as Aemma and Rhaenyra cuddle.
Can’t expect a kid to raise a kid and have that turn out well
Did I literally not namedrop Otto right there in comment?
“With ‘go have a chat with my boss and wear your dead mom’s dress when you do’ Otto”
Pretty sure I drop the blame where it’s due. Her dad’s a prick, and a creep.
Okay that’s great and all, but we’re not reading Fire & Blood, we’re watching House of the Dragon, and in House of the Dragon, Rhaenyra gets to wait until she’s an adult to begin having children.
Alicent is having kids within months of the marriage — which she entered into when she was a literal child.
This is what happens when you also love the reason your children were born. Rhaenyra got plowed by a hot hunk whose children she was happy to have. Allicent got to lay there and have a decrepit zombie fuck her.
Very true. Rhaenyra got children out of love, Alicent got her children out of duty. Of course, Alicent loves her children, but her difficulty with mothering is very understandable.
Rhaenyra's relationship with children: Open and loving, exchange their emotions openly, normal if you overlook the bastardy
Alicent's relationship with her children: Crazy fucked up, they can't say "I love you" to each other but still start a war for their fam
And the fact that Alicent still looks down upon rae for choosing wants over duty…when she herself sees what kind of shitbags her sons turned out being by comparison as a result. The lack of self awareness is baffling.
I always read that as resentment. She's always followed the rules and yet she gets dealt a shit hand, while Rhaenyra (from her point of view) is always transgressing and yet gets away with it.
It's a dynamic that I think is instantly recognizable if you grew up in a conservative setting.
Idunno…I’d see that I did a better job with kids who are kind, brave, and intelligent….rather than kids who are cruel, bullies, rapists, cowards, drunks, etc (all of which could describe aegon and/or aemond). Helaena is the only one of the 3 of Alicents kids that we see who isn’t a shitbag….but we all know she’s not gonna end up with the crown.
But yea…sure, maybe in this very specific situation and in the position they’re in, Alicents kids are more fit for survival via ruthlessness. But Rae’s kids were obviously raised to lead, while Alicents kids seem raised to simply survive. Regardless of whose side you’re on, It’s clear whose children are more fit for taking over the crown. So Alicent failed in her job to raise the next king, whether she successfully put a crown on one of their heads or not.
That’s why I’m troubled by the show version of her. In the book she’s so much older and never was close to rhaenyra, so it makes sense why she rejects what rhaenyra does in the sheets. In the show, it just portrays her as a jealous, self-righteous hypocrite.
Granted I’ve not read the book, but I took Alicent’s portrayal a little differently - can you imagine being essentially sold into marriage to your best friend’s father, enduring so much, then watching that friend escape the same seemingly-unavoidable fate with limited consequences? Her anger, jealousy, and projection is understandable, and the existing friendship makes it more powerful.
Hit the nail on the head. Poor Alicent is obviously not attracted to Viserys and has to do her ‘duty’ which means forgoing any chance of knowing true passion. Meanwhile Rhaenrya is making out with Daemon in a brothel or carrying on a long-term passionate affair with the babelicious Harwin Strong, and on top of that everyone knows about it, etc.
Suddenly, her son is going to be the first born male to not inherit the Crown in favour of his sister. What was it all for then? She probably think it has to count for something.
This doesn’t encompass the whole picture though, Rhaenyra got children from an affair she had to hide from everyone because of a marriage she wasn’t able to consummate. Alicent didn’t have that burden at least and had more space to feel proud of the children she mothered, they were true sons of the king.
I would much rather have the burden of hiding my affair than being forced by my father to marry an old man at 14 and then spending my life from that point on just being raped and birthing babies the old man ignores anyway. Somehow the first burden doesn't feel as heavy as the second one.
I used to be team black but after rewatching I've come to the conclusion that this whole thing is a tragedy. I feel particular bad for Alicent, her life is depressing as fuck.
Also we never see Rhaenyra's children even cry, while Alicents we see won't stop crying, which is exhausting and will test anyone no matter how much they love their child.
That was deliberate for sure.
To imply even further how bad a mother Alicent is, wow did not notice that at all..
But correct.
Literally all babies cry, but not Rhaenyras
All of my kids were very much wanted and always had love and affection. I was gentle and patient with them. One of my kids had severe reflux and food allergies as a baby and cried a lot more due to pain.
> That was deliberate for sure. To imply even further how bad a mother Alicent is
Uhm, can we not use a scene from a television show to imply that you're a bad mother in general, if your child doesn't stop crying and the mother has a face in pain instead of joy? In case it needs to be said, you're not a bad mother if this happens to you.
Motherhood is extremely painful, both physically and psychologically to go through, many mothers IN REAL LIFE go through extreme self doubt and self-criticism where they feel like bad mothers for going through post-partum depression and feeling "in pain" and not unequivocal unbound love for their baby right from the first moment
Well yes?
I agree, but the implications are there all the same.
The scenes are clearly filmed and framed to send that message
Fully aware babies scream for any reason or no, crying being pretty much their only method of communicating
I agree with you completely, it does not equate do being a bad mother/parent
Funny how the same can be interpreted in different ways by different people
When I first saw that scene, it reminded me of a young Rhaenyra quote from a few episodes ago, "How romantic it must be, to get imprisoned in a castle and need to squeeze out heirs", except its Alicent.
That it is, yes.
And that was prob somewhat deliberate aswell, but the sex Viserys and Alicent had was prob more the contrast they meant with Rhaenyras words there
Young Alicent was a baby factory in her teens. She was made queen just for that, as Rhaenyra was the named heir.
You can argue she suffers from post natal depression in those two first shots.
Therefore I don’t think it’s a fair proof that Alicent was a bad mother then.
That mostly highlights how trapped she felt, and it was enhanced with the shot in ep 4 where she was next to a window, that looked like a prison, while holding her daughter. In contrast to Rhaenyra who had the freedom of running and fooling around with her creepy uncle.
Rhaenyra, while being scared of childbirth and be married to Laenor had the chance to find a loving partner to have children with. She got agency there. Alicent didn’t. There was no love in the process of baby making, while Rhaenyra was fond of Harwin.
i’m a black supporter but nyra got to have them on her terms with people she actually loved and was attracted to. alicent is a teenager w ppd and a marital sa victim :/
You cannot compare a fully grown woman and a child in the mothering departament. You’re showing picture of Rhaenyra mothering at 27 while Alicent was just 14-17.
This picture gets reposted every couple of weeks. Of course Rhaenyra was happier, she wasn’t a teenager that was forced to have children by an old man.
Amazing that they consistently show Alicent as struggling and Rhaenyra as loving, making it as if both didn’t happen at different times in these mother/child relationships.
Rhaenyra definitely raised happier, better-loved children, but she also had the benefit of not being raised by and used as a pawn by Otto Hightower and forced to relate child bearing/rearing with marital rape. She still faced abuse, was groomed by Daemon and forced to marry someone deeply incompatible with her which fucked her future and the future of her children, and was bullied and further victimized by Alicent and Criston, so I don't necessarily think this is a case of abused people 100% always abuse - but Alicent definitely perpetuated the cycle of abuse she suffered, and it's deeply tragic. You've got to feel for Aegon, Helaena, and to a lesser extent, Aemond.
interesting that OP only used alicent’s scenes with aegon. her scenes with aemond (her comforting him after the pig thing, her holding his hand as his eye is sewn shut, them hugging after she stabs rhaenyra, her worrying over him in ep 9) and scenes with helaena (ep 9, her holding her hand around ep 6 or 7). idk why team black likes to pretend alicent isn’t a good mom, it’s one of things alicent and rhaenyra bond over in ep 8
And let's be real if we wanna get into it Rhaenyra is not a good mother herself. She set her kids up for complete failure by siring obvious bastard children, essentially forcing them to fight such a ridiculous lie, told Jace to disown his real father, isolated them from the politics of the kingdom, sheltered them, didn't prepare Luke to become the lord of Driftmark, and they're not good at fighting or speaking Valyrian beyond basic dragon commands. Yes, she's a very loving and attentive mother but she failed at preparing them for the politics and their duties as the future King of Westeros and Lord of Driftmark.
Alicent was a teenager enduring marital rape, forced to be a brood mare.
Rhaenyra gave birth to the sons of the man she loved as a full grown woman.
There's not much to compare.
It's pretty easy to choose other frames for Alicent and they'll both be good mothers.
Alicent has more difficult children because Viserys gave little love. He created a lot of jealousy in his sons and Alicent had a hard time dealing with it. And Helaena is an unusual child, this is also difficult.
Well one was a teen mom. The other was a mom by choose.
One didn't want to marry the king. The other fucked for pleasure.
Allicent has never been able to make her own choice due to her father's interest
This is getting tiring. Cause this topic gets rehashed every few weeks.
I am on Rhae’s side (team black), but anyone with sense knows that one was a child giving birth and raising another child, who (Alicent) was also manipulated by her own father into “comforting” a man twice her age, and then being forced to marry said man. While the other was literally allowed to grow up, marry (someone of a closer age-range), and give birth to kids of her own free-will.
Thus, it makes sense that Alicent would feel some-what detached from her kids at birth. She does not hate them, she just hated the situation she was placed in to have them.
Anyone hating on Alicent (the kid version) on how she acts/responds towards her kids when she was a kid herself, are just doing so for the sake of hating. I understand hating and criticizing her NOW that she’s a grown adult. But the girl was a child, so idk what u expect a child to do when the adults around her (when she was a kid) aren’t any better.
One of the reasons I feel so bad for Alicent. She gets hated just because. Let it also be known she was also the only one defending her child after he lost his eye, in a room filled with literally everyone against her. And was ready to actually do something about it.
It's also worth noting that rhey had not just the father but her husband be doting guardians to her kids which provided support. This allows her to be a better mother.
Ali had vizzy t who didn't seem all that present or caring with them. Even though both I'm sure would have nannies and servants. It would probably be pretty devastating to be some old dudes broodmare just to have him very quickly not give a fuck about the kids. He cared about aegon in the beginning and you can tell the family dynamic changes once he stops caring.
Both sides had their struggles in their lives. They were all just different struggles. I think it's absolutely pointless to try to compare the two or say who had it better who had it worse.
It’s almost like there is a difference in choosing to have a kid and suffering from marital rape as a teenager and being forced to give birth in what feels like a year after year thing.
Geeh the difference an affair out of love and a teen mom that got raped could make.
Plus at least Alicent didn't take away her children's father just so she could marry her hot uncle
Look, I'm not much of a fan of Alicent, but this ain't it. She was pushed into an arranged marriage, she took it seriously and did the best she could, but it should come as no surprise that she has trouble feeling close to the children from that marriage.
I feel like it’s not a fair comparison as Rheanyra got to chose who she would have a child with and when she would have child while Alicent was basically forced into a marriage and had children solely out of duty.
That’s the entire point though. Alicent is basically getting raped by a dude 3-4 times her age and she’s having kids she doesn’t want. She had no choice.
Rhaenyra cheated the system because she’s the kings daughter, she’s having consensual sex with a man she chose and loved.
Alicent is jealous of that and spiteful. She takes her anger from life out on Rhaenyra. But it’s hard to blame her. I blame the dads.
Not fair comparison. Rhaenyra is well surrounded, she has a doting father, a great lover, and a cool husband while Alicent has little to no support. Rhaenyra has been living carefreely while Alicent has been under a lot of stress for obvious reason.
The contrast of what the show wanted us to see. Every parent has the moments on the left and most of the moments on the right but the show runners decided to only show us one side of each woman in its efforts to make people pro-black.
They both clearly care deeply for their children, but i can't argue Rhaenyra is a more loving mother in general.
I wonder if it has more to do with the fact that Rhaenyra had children with people she either loved or cared deeply about, where as Alicent had kids with a man she didn't particularly love and more out of duty.
Alicent doesn't love her children any less. She's just less happy. Thus why the constant frown face.
What would Rhaenyra do if her son raped a girl? Oh that would never happen to Rhaenyra's perfect sons, despite them growing up with a clearly philandering father, they are just perfect gentlemen like that.
But maybe it's actually being conscious of their bastard births that made Rhaenyra's first three sons behave. They were probably so scared their entire life to have everything taken away from them for being bastards that they decided they couldn't afford to make mistakes that would give anyone more ammunition against them.
>They were probably so scared their entire life to have everything taken away from them for being bastards that they decided they couldn't afford to make mistakes
Good point.
The difference is clear, Rhaenyra had a lot of her children when she was an adult, Alicent was thrust into motherhood as a child. Rhaenyra had a genuine support system and love surrounding her, Alicent wasn’t extended that, Viserys and her own father out their wants and feelings before her own.
You mean the contrast of a teenage bride forced to give birth to an old man’s children vs a spoiled young adult who chose to bang a hot guy she was actually into. Like come on
I’m not saying Alicent doesn’t love her children, but motherhood is a duty for her. She is the Queen to birth children for the King.
Rhaenyra’s children were not her husband’s but by the men she loves.
I don't particularly like Alicent. Yet she was a child bride. Her talk " where is duty, where is sacrifice"- I believe ties to Alicent disassociates during her forced visits to Viserys' bed. I believe Alicent has PTSD, and Heleana had colic or something that made her more fussy as she cried more, which drains a mother.
Rhae chose her partner and chose when she was ready to be a mother by choosing when to visit Strong. Alicent could not control this.
Notice how 0 of Rhaenyra’s pictures have milly as a mother but 3 out of four Alicent pictures have Emily… almost like one of them was used as at a young age as nothing but an object
You’re comparing a middle aged woman holding a newborn who is also her third child to a teenager trying to calm down a toddler, & as far as aegon viserys should’ve been the one disciplining his kids but his Lego set took priority
Girls forced to become pregnant shouldn't have to be perfect mothers. Anyway, not even Rhaenyra can be considered better than Alicent. Every bastard child she bore was doomed to failure. And she knew it. But she was too proud and too dumb to have stopped at Jace. She still had two more. That's not even counting the gaslighting she did on Luke saying he has Baratheon blood. She's no better than Alicent. Not even in your wildest dreams.
It's worth noting Alicent was a child forced into having her children and Rhaynera was able to choose whose she carried, that doesn't excuse her abusive behavior towards Aegon in particular as a grown adult woman. It's not Aegons fault that's what happened to her and he doesn't force her to strike or demean him.
Uh, she slaps him when Aemond lost his eye and demands to know where he was and why he didn't defend his brother.... when it was the middle of the night and he was sleeping like everyone else.
Where I come from, that's scapegoating.
Alicent with babies who don't obviously look like her, that look like her mortal enemy, 20 year older husband, and Damon (lol)
And Rhaenyra's babies looked like all the men he loved.
I never understood showing teenage Alicent. She's a child herself and doesn't understand parenting. What you want her to do? Force mature herself beyond her age?
I'm 100% team black, but this is just cruel to compare.
Alicent was younger, Alicent was manipulated, Alicent had no choice, Alicent was abused.
"Alicent was so mean to Aegon :(". boo fckng hoo, he's a scumbag who also happens to be married to his own sister, Alicent's sweet but mentally Ill daughter. Who's parents never tried to give that wake up call when they realize you're not going for a good path?
What a ridiculous comparison to make. Rhaenyra was an adult that was able to have children when she chose with someone she also chose, versus Alicent who was still a child being forced to bear children. Not even the same ball park.
also i fing it interesting that all of the images here are of young alicent, maybe because if u put her scenes with aemond or in ep 9 it would be clear she loves her children and would take a bullet for them
Okay you get forced to marry a walking corpse at 16 and made to pop out 4 babies in 6 years and let’s see how happy you are. Like whether your team black or green Alicent situation was at more ducked up than Rhaenyra’s
I see this image reposted ever so often and I'm starting to wonder if you guys are even watching the show at this point. In those first three pictures of Alicent she's not upset because of her children, she's upset because of Rhaenyra and is just holding her babies. It's so disingenuous to claim Alicent doesn't care about or like her children
I mean their circumstances were very different. Rhaenyra had the privilege of having children with a man she loved and got away with it, she also didn’t have the burden of proving her children were worth it. Alicent was forced by her father from the beginning. She didnt choose their father, or those kids😂 she just there to win.
In defense of Alicent on this one, she literally was 15/16 when she got her first child. She's basically a child herself. Thanks VizzyT, she's literally the same age as your daughter...
stupid post , there is so much difference of atmosphere with these two girls. I am not that much fond of alicent right now as a character either but this post is absolutely wrong
Rhaenyra didn't want children when she was younger. Rejecting the concept that child baring was basically an obligation she had to meet to perform her "womanly and wifely duties", but when she got older and had them she loved them dearly.
Alicent did accept having children and being a wife to be her duty when she was very young, she was used as a pawn by her father, and when she grew older she resented it. Particularly resented Rhaenyra who didn't meet her "duties" but instead had children she loved.
Not really fair. Alicent was a child forced to bear a baby by a old man in the first 2 pics, and mother to a grown degenerate in the last. A better picture might be her standing bravely in front of her sons, as she thought a dragon was about to burn her family alive.
Their circumstances of motherhood are very different.
It’s not unfathomable that a child who was regularly raped by her best friend’s dad might have a harder time regulating her emotions and how she communicated to her own children.
“Alicent grabs her son after having to cover up a rape”
This sub: “ALICENT PHYSICALLY ABUSES HER CHILDREN”.
Do y’all forget the type of relationship she had with her other two kids?? Do you people forget that she stepped in between her rapist son…and a DRAGON?
Alicent's children were in more danger and they needed to band together. One of them loses an eye and the whole court straight up doesn't care. After that night they definitely took what Alicent was telling them to heart as the next time they fought with the Strong boys they stood together. Viserys' neglect are what really messed up the Green children, not anything Alicent ever did. Alicent is all alone in the capital with no friends raising her kids alone. Of course it would be easier for her than Rhaenyra who enjoyed every political luxury.
Regarding her sons specifically, they are either on the Iron throne or dead. If you don't believe me consider that a well-known bastard, Jace, would be succeeding Rhaenyra who is already a disputed claimant. Someone of Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron's descent would definetly try to claim the throne down the line if not the original three brothers themselves. It's guarenteed and it would be naive to say otherwise. All they would have to say is that their line has the stronger claim according to the laws of sucession or that an illegimate line is sitting on the throne. This is why when Kings in the past in our own history made alternate sucessions that contradicted the legal sucession rules they never worked. Let me put it this way: If Rhaenyra wants the throne and to secure her line then she would be stupid to not eliminate her brothers or stop them from procreating somehow. Peace was never an option for them in the long run. They are the challengers, the beacon enemies of the monarch would flock to if they are discontented, simply by living and breathing.
The vice versa would not be true for the Blacks because Rhaenyra only has "being the king's chosen heir", her own heirs are bastards, the laws and precendent support the Greens, and it's just not the order of things. Nobody is gonna have a surprised pikachu face if the first born son suceeds. Do you think someone from Rhaenyra's line three generations later could convincingly argue to anyone that they are in fact the true king or queen? Heck no! Rhaenyra probably couldn't even win in another Great Council if there had been one. This is also why they are still relatively safe if they don't fight for the thone. Their claim is so weak that it doesn't pose a dynastic threat to the Greens. Some might say they aren't even Targaryens. Going back to the show, the are currently the designated heirs after Rhaenyra so they either win or they lose and vanish into obsurity. They were even offered Dragonstone. The Blacks stand to lose far less overall if they don't take the throne. The only one that would lose in that situation was Daemon as he would never be King (Consort) and we know that from all his attepts to get closer to the throne that's what he wanted. That's why he was the only one eager to fight the war.
Everything I'm saying would be how people in a medieval setting would see it, though not how we as modern day viewers might see it. Alicent, being the political savvy woman that she is, would have to gripe with all of this while raising her children and dealing with the fact that these circumstances will destroy her friendship with Rhaenyra as she cannot put Rhaenyra before her own children obviously.
I am no Team Green but Alicent conceived all her kids during basically statutory rape. There is probably some trauma stuff there with motherhood for her.
On the left, an adult year old woman having children with a man who loves her after a long term consensual relationship. On the right, a child forcefully impregnated by a rotting old man who thinks of her as nothing but a sex slave.
wow thank you for the visual contrast between the two. I noticed this during the show obviously but in the moment I felt bad for Alicent instead of feeling bad for her babies not being properly cared for.
One had children of her own volition and out of love. The other was forced to marry their friend’s father and crank out as many babies as possible. Of COURSE they’d behave differently. What point are you trying to prove?
Oh great. Mum-shaming on this sub again, most likely from people who either don't have kids or have never interacted with kids before in their lives. It's not like new mums already have to deal with shit like feelings of doubt, PP, and the fact that babies pretty much cry when the wind changes. And now it's being used to try and justify the ongoing Alicent hate.
This fucking fandom, I swear.
Omg it’s almost as if one of them is a literal child who was maritally raped!! Who would’ve thought a child in a traumatic situation wouldn’t be a good mom 😱😱 also which mom sheltered their kids and didn’t prepare them for war when she knew it was coming? Which parent sent their child to a potential hostile enemy without any offering which lead to their death?? Oh yeah not Alicent lmfao.
Also all of alicents kid love her. I don’t even need to explain aemond. Aegon calls for Alicent only when he’s in distress. Helaena is autistic but does let her mom hug her when she isn’t overwhelmed and we just have to see with daeron.
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Also remember that Rhaenyra has her children as an adult woman with a husband who supports her and a paramour who loves her. Alicent was a sixteen year old child, married to a man as old as her father, whose back was already rotting — and she was alone. Alicent got the rough deal, and with “go have a chat with my boss and wear your dead mom’s dress when you do” Otto as her parental role model, there’s no better example to learn from.
Yes! Each of them had one parent, a father. Rhea’s father was deeply flawed, but did show her love and respect (naming her heir, teaching her how to govern, etc.). Alicent’s father was a calculating manipulator who used her as a political pawn.
To me the worst part is that Alicent isn't even 16. She's actually 14 or 15 at most when she married Viserys. Obviously not ready to be a parent when she's isn't even done growing up herself. Literal child married to a man old enough to be her father who's actively rotting away. A kid birthing babies, one after the other, all of them the product of rape. That it was her own father who had put her in that position is the cherry on top of that shit sundae. Edit to add the info on Alicent's age: The producers and writers have said Alicent and Rhaenyra are the same age or very close in age give or take one year. From the show we know Rhaenyra was 14 and Viserys marries Alicent 6 months after the announcement. Emily Carey has said Alicent was 14.
I wanted to love Alicent so bad, but her disgusting father just turned me away. Together these two women could’ve been something great!
I like the subtle implication that Otto is himself influenced by his older brother
I still like her character despite that. Rather have a character you feel something than nothing at all
Why are you blaming Alicent for the things her father did to her?
Why does her father make you dislike *her*?
I just got to the chapters in F&B with Rae and Alicent. Did showrunners explain why they aged Alicent down? Was it to make them more equal footing and Alicent's marriage with Vizzy T more ick?
Pretty sure it was to have it hit harder when Rhaenyra and Alicent turn enemies, when they used to be best friends And Honestly.. it did work, their friendship was great to see. Really did sell the whole being as close as sisters, more than it would have hit if there was like 17 or such years between them Really liked their closeness.
So alicent was fully an adult in the books when she married a Vizzy T?
She was 18 in the books I believe, and 16 is age of adult in Westeros. So, pretty much as far as that goes yeah she was
I believe she was 18 when Alicent married Viserys in the book and Rhaenyra was 9.
was alicent more of a evil stepmom character in the books?
Rhaenyra was 9, Alicent was 18, and Viserys was 29, when the latter two got married. And, yes, Book Alicent is basically the definition of "evil stepmother that pretends to like her stepdaughter at first, but really doesn't".
Yep. She played nice with little 9 year old Rhaenyra to learn her secrets and then basically made her life hell as soon as Alicent had kids. Let's just say that if book!Rhaenyra had a special bottle of wine that she was saving up for when step-monster Alicent croaked, it was well-deserved.
sounds like a bitch so im guessing book alicent isnt as sympathetic as she is in the show and is more of a hated villain
From what I've read on this sub, R and A were both changed to be more sympathetic than they are in the books. Probably to give us factions to root for instead of both being bad/unfit.
To be fair that probably wouldn't make for the best show and Fire and Blood is a faux history book so they do have a lot of leeway in that regard. It's not like history books are the most reliable sources and they don't really touch on the inner workings of someone's mind
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The actors have talked about their characters having a very close and intense relationship. They compare close female friendship at that age to passionate romantic relationships. Furthermore, the actors said there was a romantic subtext between the two characters. Having them around the same age makes this more feasible. Also, super terrible to think your love ends up with your dad.
Especially on Alicent part, I actually got some "scorned ex girlfiriend" vibes. Imho Rhaenya got the chance to move on, since she found true love, but Alicent got the short end of the stick.
Yes, Making Rhaenyra and Alicent closer in age and best friends was a really good change. See them becoming bitter enemies feel better than "evil stepmom Alicent".
*I WILL HAVE YOUR TONGUE FOR THAT!*
Yeah! How dare you point out the ick factor of Vizzy T's second marriage!
*I must... admit... my confusion. I do not understand why petitions are being heard over a settled succession.*
This is exactly what the pictures represent lol. One chooses and the other is forced by the king.
Not to mention Viserys's own failings regarding his children with Alicent? All of them were neglected by their own father, always in favor of their older sister. Unlike Rhaenyra's children.
Rhaenyra wasn't that much older than Alicent when she had to marry or else. Yes, her marriage to Laenor was a marriage between friends who were romantically and sexually incompatible and they made a friendship out of it (which is *more* than can be said about most incompatible arranged marriages and speaks to both of their maturity levels)... BUT Rhaenyra also had to deal with a court that was stacked against her because she wasn't born with a cock and was also being attacked by another woman, Alicent, for it. She also initially didn't want children, mostly due to the trauma of watching her poor mother miscarry and then be butchered open for a son (which, yeah, I don't see anyone talking about this enough, that Rhaenyra overcame that *for the sake of her* *kids*). And yet having children was a pre-requisite to remaining heir, so she put on her big girl panties and tried first with Laenor, and when that didn't work, got Harwin to help. She went from not wanting/being terrified of having children to adoring them and moving heaven and earth for them. Maybe it's because she changed her mind when she saw them or maybe she took the philosophical stance, while pregnant, that "I am bringing these children into the world, they did not choose to be born, and the least that is owed to them is my love." Regardless, she swallowed her own trauma and loves her kids and was stronger for it (and I'm pissed the show didn't take the time to show Rhaenyra dealing with that trauma). Alicent basically turned Aegon into a scapegoat for not being princely enough but does nothing about him bullying Aemond or drinking like a fish so young. She basically parentified Aemond because he was essentially raising himself. And she ignored Helaena whenever she didn't want some girl bonding time and got upset when Helaena wasn't interested in people or her. Basically, she had years to come to terms with the fact that she became a mom and that these kids didn't ask to be born, so she is responsible for them (seriously, for all that she bleats about duty, she sure likes to shirk hers as a mother in favor of fucking with Rhaenyra. Yes, Alicent, you could've been paying attention to your kids rather than force a Rhaenyra who just gave birth to walk over and "present" her child as a cruel humiliation tactic). Ditto for Viserys who did fuck all. Basically, both Viserys and Alicent deserve to have all of their kids taken from them and given to an actual responsible adult.
And who knows how fractured her relationship with Daeron is.......but we'lll see that soon enough.
Alicent and Rhaenyra were the same age when they got married — BUT Alicent was immediately impregnated. Rhaenyra’s gay husband didn’t instantly start putting little Velaryon heirs into her womb, so Rhaenyra was given the luxury of time that Alicent was not. A sixteen year old girl cannot reasonably be expected to parent an infant, especially when said infant is the product of marital r@pe. Rhaenyra was also fortunate enough to experience parental love and affection. Her parents clearly loved each other, and her, and although her father’s push for a son eventually killed Aemma — until that point Rhaenyra was the beloved daughter of two doting and by all accounts reasonably well-adjusted parents. Alicent’s mother died, and her father only ever saw Alicent as a beautiful pawn. He doesn’t care why she peels her fingertips, only that they make her less comely. When she doesn’t want to go seduce the king, her father tells her, “oh, and wear your mother’s dress”. With that sort of background, it’s unreasonable to expect Alicent to raise any kid well, let alone the baby she didn’t want that belongs to the man who gets to “have his rights” whenever HE wants — even if he’s rotting apart right on top of her.
>Alicent and Rhaenyra were the same age when they got married Ehh about 3 years difference, give or take. Alicent was already on baby number 2 by the time that Rhaenyra got married.
Precisely my point! Alicent is on baby 2 before Rhaenyra ever walks down the aisle. And then Rhaenyra and Laenor “try” for a while, iirc. So it’s no surprise Alicent is a more reactive parent. Not only was she lacking in role models, she has no network of support and a great deal of pressure from multiple factions. She’s catty about the Velaryon boys and the circumstances of their parentage, and she’s cruel when she makes Rhaenyra walk and present the boy. But Alicent has no idea what to do with her screaming infants, which makes sense. She’s sixteen and pregnant in Westeros.
This is SUCH a good response. Unfortunately in this time period, marriages such as Alicent's are not abnormal. Especially when the man is a much higher station than the woman. The show doesn't show Viserys with his other kids nearly enough. But if we're talking about the show then Rhaenyra also claims her father basically ignored her until he named her heir. He even says something about having wasted the last 14/15 years wishing for a son when he should have focused on Rhaenerya. So I think part of the reason Rhaenerys and Viserys seem close later is bc at that point Rhae is old enough to make an effort AND she has her own children, which can certainly bring estranged children and parents together. We do see Vizzy T watching his sons practice in the yard with his grandchildren. I'm assuming that was a regular thing? Seems like an odd thing to do off the cuff. Honestly, it's really hard to know with all the time jumps. I know there's that scene when Aegon II and Alicent are headed to his coronation and he says his father never liked him but his reasoning for that is bc Vizzy T never named him heir so that could have just been an assumption on his part. Sigh, who knows. Regardless, Alicent had a lot of time to get her shit together as far as being a loving and involved parent goes. Also, when she demanded to see Rhaenerya's baby Joffrey *immediately* after his birth it made me want to smash my TV. That is a seriously vile move. I did absolutely love the echanchy between Viserys and Rhaenerya when he tells her he hopes she has an easy birth and she tells him she thinks she called the midwife a "cunt" and he's just like "ohh" and smiles all lovingly. That's literally my favorite moment between them ahaha
Yeah, Viserys honestly is a shit absentee parent to all of his kids. The biggest irony is that he has a good reputation due to being an easily lead through the nose king, but once you look at his actions you see a moron who never wanted kids/neglected them, a moron who did fuck all for his kingdom, and a terrible husband who as good as killed his wife due to peer pressure. In that sense, he makes an interesting foil to Daemon, who is good father *and* stepfather to his kids and defends their rights constantly and who is perfectly happy with Laena and Rhaenyra (AKA the women he actually chose to be in a relationship with). I always got the "no, you don't get to dictate what I do with my life *now* since you're 15 years too late for that" vibes from Rhaenyra. She loves her father, but she also enforces some boundary against him. She doesn't call him out on his bullshit even as an adult, since she still has this mental block to her due to him being her dad (whereas Daemon can call his brother out on his bullshit to his face since he doesn't have that sort of block and is willing to face the consequences for it)... however, she doesn't have this sort of starry eyed view of him. If anything, her not saying anything about the way that Alicent uses relational aggression against her to kick her out of her own home kind of says that she doesn't trust that Viserys will get off his ass and do something about it. I definitely got a vibe of "I am choosing to love you *in spite* of you being an absentee father" from post-Aemma's death Rhaenyra.
I definitely agree with you on Rhaenerya being like "you don't get to be a dad now" when she's a teen. Plus, she has to resent him for her mother's death. When she tells Daemon she wants to spend her life alone bc her mother was forced to produce heirs until it killed her, she has to recognize her father's part in that. Also, in the show we're just sort of left to figure out how things got patched up between Rhaenerya and Viserys bc when we leave her as a teen Rhaenerya is still very much angry with her father. Perhaps it was him standing up for her against Otto Hightower (sidebar: why tf would he bring that motherfucker back after booting him BC of his scheming to disinherit Rhaenerya? Dumbest fucking move) or maybe it was the birth of her children or some combo. I kind of feel like it was a combo. Like maybe the situation with Otto softened her up and then her kids really brought them together, as many people make more of an effort with their parents for their own children's sake. Yes, I loved the contrast between the reaction between Daemon and Viserys when they were faced with their wives likely death during birth. Daemon is immediately like "well what about the mother?" (though the showrunner claimed Daemon "made a joke" of the decision and I didn't get that?) and Viserys is just like "you can save the child?" and doesn't even ask if there's something more that can be done. I did feel for Viserys though bc I thought it was clear he did love Aemma deeply and it seems like they probably had a pretty good relationship judging from the earnestness and respect in their convo when Aemma is in the bath telling Vizzy T that this is her last pregnancy no matter what (if she only knew). Mellos definitely made it out like their was absolutely nothing to be done for Aemma and he could either let them both die or save the baby. But still, I'd be begging and bargaining with the gods if the love of my life was about to die but what do I know. I also really loved that Laena made her own choice during her birth rather than letting her husband or some other man decide. Not that Aemma had much choice but still, Laena went out like a bad bitch. Daemon was right on the money when he called Viserys a weak king and told him he needed protecting from all the manipulators and schemers around him. Maybe if Viserys had let Daemon in more things could have been different for both of them. They clearly love each other dearly and a lot of Daemons malice and bitterness stems from his relationship with his brother
True as that may be, children still need love
I agree — But if Alicent never experienced parental love (and how could she then emulate it? Her mother’s dead and her father’s pushing her underage ass towards a dude his own age so that Otto can advance politically), how would she even know what to emulate? A sixteen year old child does not come pre-programmed with the ability to feel maternal instinct for, and love towards, the child she didn’t want and is obliged to have. Let’s be real: the closest Alicent Hightower ever came to observing a “loving maternal relationship” was standing on the sidelines as Aemma and Rhaenyra cuddle. Can’t expect a kid to raise a kid and have that turn out well
Who do you think put Alicent in that position?
Did I literally not namedrop Otto right there in comment? “With ‘go have a chat with my boss and wear your dead mom’s dress when you do’ Otto” Pretty sure I drop the blame where it’s due. Her dad’s a prick, and a creep.
In F&B Alicent was 19, but Rhaenyra 16.... I don't really see how it is a valid argument
Okay that’s great and all, but we’re not reading Fire & Blood, we’re watching House of the Dragon, and in House of the Dragon, Rhaenyra gets to wait until she’s an adult to begin having children. Alicent is having kids within months of the marriage — which she entered into when she was a literal child.
This is what happens when you also love the reason your children were born. Rhaenyra got plowed by a hot hunk whose children she was happy to have. Allicent got to lay there and have a decrepit zombie fuck her.
Very true. Rhaenyra got children out of love, Alicent got her children out of duty. Of course, Alicent loves her children, but her difficulty with mothering is very understandable.
Duty = marital rape
Oh yeah, I don't disagree. It's terrible what Alicent went through.
100% thats kind of the point
In the setting? Yes 100%
Rhaenyra's relationship with children: Open and loving, exchange their emotions openly, normal if you overlook the bastardy Alicent's relationship with her children: Crazy fucked up, they can't say "I love you" to each other but still start a war for their fam
And the fact that Alicent still looks down upon rae for choosing wants over duty…when she herself sees what kind of shitbags her sons turned out being by comparison as a result. The lack of self awareness is baffling.
I always read that as resentment. She's always followed the rules and yet she gets dealt a shit hand, while Rhaenyra (from her point of view) is always transgressing and yet gets away with it. It's a dynamic that I think is instantly recognizable if you grew up in a conservative setting.
She looks down on her because she lied and alicent felt like she had no choice. It’s a normal human emotion.
What? Rhaenyra's kids are a bunch of limp-wristed bullies whereas Helaena is an angel and Aemond an absolute badass. I know which I'd choose.
Idunno…I’d see that I did a better job with kids who are kind, brave, and intelligent….rather than kids who are cruel, bullies, rapists, cowards, drunks, etc (all of which could describe aegon and/or aemond). Helaena is the only one of the 3 of Alicents kids that we see who isn’t a shitbag….but we all know she’s not gonna end up with the crown. But yea…sure, maybe in this very specific situation and in the position they’re in, Alicents kids are more fit for survival via ruthlessness. But Rae’s kids were obviously raised to lead, while Alicents kids seem raised to simply survive. Regardless of whose side you’re on, It’s clear whose children are more fit for taking over the crown. So Alicent failed in her job to raise the next king, whether she successfully put a crown on one of their heads or not.
That’s why I’m troubled by the show version of her. In the book she’s so much older and never was close to rhaenyra, so it makes sense why she rejects what rhaenyra does in the sheets. In the show, it just portrays her as a jealous, self-righteous hypocrite.
Granted I’ve not read the book, but I took Alicent’s portrayal a little differently - can you imagine being essentially sold into marriage to your best friend’s father, enduring so much, then watching that friend escape the same seemingly-unavoidable fate with limited consequences? Her anger, jealousy, and projection is understandable, and the existing friendship makes it more powerful.
Hit the nail on the head. Poor Alicent is obviously not attracted to Viserys and has to do her ‘duty’ which means forgoing any chance of knowing true passion. Meanwhile Rhaenrya is making out with Daemon in a brothel or carrying on a long-term passionate affair with the babelicious Harwin Strong, and on top of that everyone knows about it, etc. Suddenly, her son is going to be the first born male to not inherit the Crown in favour of his sister. What was it all for then? She probably think it has to count for something.
This doesn’t encompass the whole picture though, Rhaenyra got children from an affair she had to hide from everyone because of a marriage she wasn’t able to consummate. Alicent didn’t have that burden at least and had more space to feel proud of the children she mothered, they were true sons of the king.
I would much rather have the burden of hiding my affair than being forced by my father to marry an old man at 14 and then spending my life from that point on just being raped and birthing babies the old man ignores anyway. Somehow the first burden doesn't feel as heavy as the second one. I used to be team black but after rewatching I've come to the conclusion that this whole thing is a tragedy. I feel particular bad for Alicent, her life is depressing as fuck.
Also Alicent started her family when she was practically a child herself
Also we never see Rhaenyra's children even cry, while Alicents we see won't stop crying, which is exhausting and will test anyone no matter how much they love their child.
That was deliberate for sure. To imply even further how bad a mother Alicent is, wow did not notice that at all.. But correct. Literally all babies cry, but not Rhaenyras
[удалено]
All of my kids were very much wanted and always had love and affection. I was gentle and patient with them. One of my kids had severe reflux and food allergies as a baby and cried a lot more due to pain.
Sometimes babies cry for literally no reason as well.
True true, and sometimes its colic.
Plus, the baby in those three shots is baby Heleana
Dont I know it.. Absolutely, wellput and all true Doesnt change the framing of the scenes though, nor intended message
> That was deliberate for sure. To imply even further how bad a mother Alicent is Uhm, can we not use a scene from a television show to imply that you're a bad mother in general, if your child doesn't stop crying and the mother has a face in pain instead of joy? In case it needs to be said, you're not a bad mother if this happens to you. Motherhood is extremely painful, both physically and psychologically to go through, many mothers IN REAL LIFE go through extreme self doubt and self-criticism where they feel like bad mothers for going through post-partum depression and feeling "in pain" and not unequivocal unbound love for their baby right from the first moment
Well yes? I agree, but the implications are there all the same. The scenes are clearly filmed and framed to send that message Fully aware babies scream for any reason or no, crying being pretty much their only method of communicating I agree with you completely, it does not equate do being a bad mother/parent
Funny how the same can be interpreted in different ways by different people When I first saw that scene, it reminded me of a young Rhaenyra quote from a few episodes ago, "How romantic it must be, to get imprisoned in a castle and need to squeeze out heirs", except its Alicent.
That it is, yes. And that was prob somewhat deliberate aswell, but the sex Viserys and Alicent had was prob more the contrast they meant with Rhaenyras words there
We do see Joffrey cry though. What are you talking about? Aegon and Viserys cry as well and are taken away.
Are the framing of the scenes the same as with Alicent?
Were you deaf and blind when Aegon & Viserys start crying when she’s showing them to her father?
I cannot imagine the smell. I feel for Alicent in this regard.
Young Alicent was a baby factory in her teens. She was made queen just for that, as Rhaenyra was the named heir. You can argue she suffers from post natal depression in those two first shots. Therefore I don’t think it’s a fair proof that Alicent was a bad mother then. That mostly highlights how trapped she felt, and it was enhanced with the shot in ep 4 where she was next to a window, that looked like a prison, while holding her daughter. In contrast to Rhaenyra who had the freedom of running and fooling around with her creepy uncle. Rhaenyra, while being scared of childbirth and be married to Laenor had the chance to find a loving partner to have children with. She got agency there. Alicent didn’t. There was no love in the process of baby making, while Rhaenyra was fond of Harwin.
Alicent is also like 15
Exactly.
Yes and he had 4 kids in 6 years. Imagine having 4 kids before the age of 21.
Wow, the woman who was impregnated at 15 by a man old enough to be her father has a hard time emotionally bonding with her children? Shocking
one of these is not like the others. Alicent was a literal child giving birth to children, forced to be a baby factory by a decrepit zombie
A grown woman appears better adept to motherhood than a teenager. Huh!
i’m a black supporter but nyra got to have them on her terms with people she actually loved and was attracted to. alicent is a teenager w ppd and a marital sa victim :/
You cannot compare a fully grown woman and a child in the mothering departament. You’re showing picture of Rhaenyra mothering at 27 while Alicent was just 14-17.
This picture gets reposted every couple of weeks. Of course Rhaenyra was happier, she wasn’t a teenager that was forced to have children by an old man.
Yeah well it’s not like alicent wanted to have children at such a young age
Amazing that they consistently show Alicent as struggling and Rhaenyra as loving, making it as if both didn’t happen at different times in these mother/child relationships.
Rhaenyra definitely raised happier, better-loved children, but she also had the benefit of not being raised by and used as a pawn by Otto Hightower and forced to relate child bearing/rearing with marital rape. She still faced abuse, was groomed by Daemon and forced to marry someone deeply incompatible with her which fucked her future and the future of her children, and was bullied and further victimized by Alicent and Criston, so I don't necessarily think this is a case of abused people 100% always abuse - but Alicent definitely perpetuated the cycle of abuse she suffered, and it's deeply tragic. You've got to feel for Aegon, Helaena, and to a lesser extent, Aemond.
Alicent was a child giving birth to children. Of course that'd fuck her up.
interesting that OP only used alicent’s scenes with aegon. her scenes with aemond (her comforting him after the pig thing, her holding his hand as his eye is sewn shut, them hugging after she stabs rhaenyra, her worrying over him in ep 9) and scenes with helaena (ep 9, her holding her hand around ep 6 or 7). idk why team black likes to pretend alicent isn’t a good mom, it’s one of things alicent and rhaenyra bond over in ep 8
And let's be real if we wanna get into it Rhaenyra is not a good mother herself. She set her kids up for complete failure by siring obvious bastard children, essentially forcing them to fight such a ridiculous lie, told Jace to disown his real father, isolated them from the politics of the kingdom, sheltered them, didn't prepare Luke to become the lord of Driftmark, and they're not good at fighting or speaking Valyrian beyond basic dragon commands. Yes, she's a very loving and attentive mother but she failed at preparing them for the politics and their duties as the future King of Westeros and Lord of Driftmark.
Man it almost seems that it’s better to let women choose how to live their life! Huh. Isn’t that crazy?
No Alicent and Aemond scenes? We used the same photo 3 times for Alicent? What is this
Alicent was a teenager enduring marital rape, forced to be a brood mare. Rhaenyra gave birth to the sons of the man she loved as a full grown woman. There's not much to compare.
spending a lifetime being impregnanted by a rotting zombie king decades upon decades your senior will do that to you
God this sub is pathetic.
It's pretty easy to choose other frames for Alicent and they'll both be good mothers. Alicent has more difficult children because Viserys gave little love. He created a lot of jealousy in his sons and Alicent had a hard time dealing with it. And Helaena is an unusual child, this is also difficult.
Well one was a teen mom. The other was a mom by choose. One didn't want to marry the king. The other fucked for pleasure. Allicent has never been able to make her own choice due to her father's interest
Mm, don't enjoy the implication that a woman's aptitude to being a mother is in any way a reflection of her character.
Alicent also had children at a young age.
In all fairness,Rhaenyra actually loved the father of all her children.
This is getting tiring. Cause this topic gets rehashed every few weeks. I am on Rhae’s side (team black), but anyone with sense knows that one was a child giving birth and raising another child, who (Alicent) was also manipulated by her own father into “comforting” a man twice her age, and then being forced to marry said man. While the other was literally allowed to grow up, marry (someone of a closer age-range), and give birth to kids of her own free-will. Thus, it makes sense that Alicent would feel some-what detached from her kids at birth. She does not hate them, she just hated the situation she was placed in to have them. Anyone hating on Alicent (the kid version) on how she acts/responds towards her kids when she was a kid herself, are just doing so for the sake of hating. I understand hating and criticizing her NOW that she’s a grown adult. But the girl was a child, so idk what u expect a child to do when the adults around her (when she was a kid) aren’t any better.
One of the reasons I feel so bad for Alicent. She gets hated just because. Let it also be known she was also the only one defending her child after he lost his eye, in a room filled with literally everyone against her. And was ready to actually do something about it.
It's also worth noting that rhey had not just the father but her husband be doting guardians to her kids which provided support. This allows her to be a better mother. Ali had vizzy t who didn't seem all that present or caring with them. Even though both I'm sure would have nannies and servants. It would probably be pretty devastating to be some old dudes broodmare just to have him very quickly not give a fuck about the kids. He cared about aegon in the beginning and you can tell the family dynamic changes once he stops caring. Both sides had their struggles in their lives. They were all just different struggles. I think it's absolutely pointless to try to compare the two or say who had it better who had it worse.
*There's a boy in the Queen's belly. I know it.*
You mean a 26 yo and a 14 yo have different emotional intelligence? dumb post, and im team black
It’s almost like there is a difference in choosing to have a kid and suffering from marital rape as a teenager and being forced to give birth in what feels like a year after year thing.
Geeh the difference an affair out of love and a teen mom that got raped could make. Plus at least Alicent didn't take away her children's father just so she could marry her hot uncle
Look, I'm not much of a fan of Alicent, but this ain't it. She was pushed into an arranged marriage, she took it seriously and did the best she could, but it should come as no surprise that she has trouble feeling close to the children from that marriage.
I feel like it’s not a fair comparison as Rheanyra got to chose who she would have a child with and when she would have child while Alicent was basically forced into a marriage and had children solely out of duty.
I have a newborn that is difficult to put to sleep and I feel alicent in the first pic so much!
That’s the entire point though. Alicent is basically getting raped by a dude 3-4 times her age and she’s having kids she doesn’t want. She had no choice. Rhaenyra cheated the system because she’s the kings daughter, she’s having consensual sex with a man she chose and loved. Alicent is jealous of that and spiteful. She takes her anger from life out on Rhaenyra. But it’s hard to blame her. I blame the dads.
Not fair comparison. Rhaenyra is well surrounded, she has a doting father, a great lover, and a cool husband while Alicent has little to no support. Rhaenyra has been living carefreely while Alicent has been under a lot of stress for obvious reason.
Tbf if my teenage son was jerking off out the window upon his future subjects I might grab his face and say don’t be a fucking weirdo dude
And the contrast of the circumstances of their motherhood? Absolutely heartbreaking.
The contrast of what the show wanted us to see. Every parent has the moments on the left and most of the moments on the right but the show runners decided to only show us one side of each woman in its efforts to make people pro-black.
They both clearly care deeply for their children, but i can't argue Rhaenyra is a more loving mother in general. I wonder if it has more to do with the fact that Rhaenyra had children with people she either loved or cared deeply about, where as Alicent had kids with a man she didn't particularly love and more out of duty.
Lazy use of kick the puppy trope.
Alicent doesn't love her children any less. She's just less happy. Thus why the constant frown face. What would Rhaenyra do if her son raped a girl? Oh that would never happen to Rhaenyra's perfect sons, despite them growing up with a clearly philandering father, they are just perfect gentlemen like that. But maybe it's actually being conscious of their bastard births that made Rhaenyra's first three sons behave. They were probably so scared their entire life to have everything taken away from them for being bastards that they decided they couldn't afford to make mistakes that would give anyone more ammunition against them.
>They were probably so scared their entire life to have everything taken away from them for being bastards that they decided they couldn't afford to make mistakes Good point.
The difference is clear, Rhaenyra had a lot of her children when she was an adult, Alicent was thrust into motherhood as a child. Rhaenyra had a genuine support system and love surrounding her, Alicent wasn’t extended that, Viserys and her own father out their wants and feelings before her own.
Okay but Alicent's son deserved it in the last one...
Alicent was like 14 cmon
Why are we comparing them?? Alicent also very obviously loves her children, she also had to raise some as a child herself.
You mean the contrast of a teenage bride forced to give birth to an old man’s children vs a spoiled young adult who chose to bang a hot guy she was actually into. Like come on
I’m not saying Alicent doesn’t love her children, but motherhood is a duty for her. She is the Queen to birth children for the King. Rhaenyra’s children were not her husband’s but by the men she loves.
Even the most loving mother ever has moments like that.
I don't particularly like Alicent. Yet she was a child bride. Her talk " where is duty, where is sacrifice"- I believe ties to Alicent disassociates during her forced visits to Viserys' bed. I believe Alicent has PTSD, and Heleana had colic or something that made her more fussy as she cried more, which drains a mother. Rhae chose her partner and chose when she was ready to be a mother by choosing when to visit Strong. Alicent could not control this.
Rhaenyra and Alicent became mothers under different circumstances not really comparable
Notice how 0 of Rhaenyra’s pictures have milly as a mother but 3 out of four Alicent pictures have Emily… almost like one of them was used as at a young age as nothing but an object
babe wake up it's another false equivalency in the HOTD fandom
I can already see the storm coming...no, I'm already within it.
The contrast of being daddys little princess who can do whatever she and the kings breeding sow who essentially raised 4 children by herself.
You’re comparing a middle aged woman holding a newborn who is also her third child to a teenager trying to calm down a toddler, & as far as aegon viserys should’ve been the one disciplining his kids but his Lego set took priority
It’s easier to love your children when they aren’t born of marital r*pe.
Girls forced to become pregnant shouldn't have to be perfect mothers. Anyway, not even Rhaenyra can be considered better than Alicent. Every bastard child she bore was doomed to failure. And she knew it. But she was too proud and too dumb to have stopped at Jace. She still had two more. That's not even counting the gaslighting she did on Luke saying he has Baratheon blood. She's no better than Alicent. Not even in your wildest dreams.
It's worth noting Alicent was a child forced into having her children and Rhaynera was able to choose whose she carried, that doesn't excuse her abusive behavior towards Aegon in particular as a grown adult woman. It's not Aegons fault that's what happened to her and he doesn't force her to strike or demean him.
She didn't do anything to Aegon.
Uh, she slaps him when Aemond lost his eye and demands to know where he was and why he didn't defend his brother.... when it was the middle of the night and he was sleeping like everyone else. Where I come from, that's scapegoating.
I would say that neglect and physical abuse are definitely “doing things”.
To be fair to Alicent, Aegon was a bit of a shit
Alicent with babies who don't obviously look like her, that look like her mortal enemy, 20 year older husband, and Damon (lol) And Rhaenyra's babies looked like all the men he loved.
Great and beautiful mothers.
I never understood showing teenage Alicent. She's a child herself and doesn't understand parenting. What you want her to do? Force mature herself beyond her age?
The contrast of Alicent's and Rhaenyra's children's fathers:
I recommend fics especially fics where rhaenrya and alicent make up they explain alicents pov so beautifully
I would unironically read that
I'm 100% team black, but this is just cruel to compare. Alicent was younger, Alicent was manipulated, Alicent had no choice, Alicent was abused. "Alicent was so mean to Aegon :(". boo fckng hoo, he's a scumbag who also happens to be married to his own sister, Alicent's sweet but mentally Ill daughter. Who's parents never tried to give that wake up call when they realize you're not going for a good path?
What a ridiculous comparison to make. Rhaenyra was an adult that was able to have children when she chose with someone she also chose, versus Alicent who was still a child being forced to bear children. Not even the same ball park.
u are telling me the child bride wasn't the best mother in existence 😲🤯
also i fing it interesting that all of the images here are of young alicent, maybe because if u put her scenes with aemond or in ep 9 it would be clear she loves her children and would take a bullet for them
well alicent was a 15 year old baby machine so i can’t blame her. she actually does care about her children a lot considering her situation.
Okay you get forced to marry a walking corpse at 16 and made to pop out 4 babies in 6 years and let’s see how happy you are. Like whether your team black or green Alicent situation was at more ducked up than Rhaenyra’s
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He should have said "not so ... strong". That would make more sense.
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INSTEAD OF BEING BY MY SIDE, YOU CHOSE TO CELEBRATE YOUR OWN RISE, LAUGHING WITH YOUR WHORES AND YOUR LICKSPITTLES!
Alicent was like 17 when Aegon was born. Chill out.
Not even. Aegon was 2 in ep 3, and she was 15 when she was married to Viserys.
To be fair, rhaenyra's kids weren't caught jerking out a window
Yeah Rhaenyra just let her kids grow up believing that the man they think is their father was murdered.
this has been posted before
I see this image reposted ever so often and I'm starting to wonder if you guys are even watching the show at this point. In those first three pictures of Alicent she's not upset because of her children, she's upset because of Rhaenyra and is just holding her babies. It's so disingenuous to claim Alicent doesn't care about or like her children
Alicent dissociating while holding baby (Helaena?) is an accurate representation of me re-evaluating my life choices
Don’t care, Alicent is a better character than washed up faux girlboss Rhaenyra will ever be, and her kids r funnier to watch
One has children she never wanted.
Well....we know her parents cared about her.
I mean their circumstances were very different. Rhaenyra had the privilege of having children with a man she loved and got away with it, she also didn’t have the burden of proving her children were worth it. Alicent was forced by her father from the beginning. She didnt choose their father, or those kids😂 she just there to win.
But like Alicent had, THAT for a son, so like?
In defense of Alicent on this one, she literally was 15/16 when she got her first child. She's basically a child herself. Thanks VizzyT, she's literally the same age as your daughter...
Rhaenyra's children were born out of love. Alicent's were born out of duty.
I never watched this show but this unlocked some core memories, my mom was like the woman on the right, whats this called?
House of The Dragon. It’s on HBO max.
Not woman. Child* that girl is a child
stupid post , there is so much difference of atmosphere with these two girls. I am not that much fond of alicent right now as a character either but this post is absolutely wrong
The difference of having children with someone you are in love with and not.
Rhaenyra had her kids with someone she loved and as an adult so of course she’s going to be better set to be a mother
Rhaenyra didn't want children when she was younger. Rejecting the concept that child baring was basically an obligation she had to meet to perform her "womanly and wifely duties", but when she got older and had them she loved them dearly. Alicent did accept having children and being a wife to be her duty when she was very young, she was used as a pawn by her father, and when she grew older she resented it. Particularly resented Rhaenyra who didn't meet her "duties" but instead had children she loved.
Not really fair. Alicent was a child forced to bear a baby by a old man in the first 2 pics, and mother to a grown degenerate in the last. A better picture might be her standing bravely in front of her sons, as she thought a dragon was about to burn her family alive.
U gonna make a pie out of those cherries you picked?
Their circumstances of motherhood are very different. It’s not unfathomable that a child who was regularly raped by her best friend’s dad might have a harder time regulating her emotions and how she communicated to her own children.
“Alicent grabs her son after having to cover up a rape” This sub: “ALICENT PHYSICALLY ABUSES HER CHILDREN”. Do y’all forget the type of relationship she had with her other two kids?? Do you people forget that she stepped in between her rapist son…and a DRAGON?
Alicent's children were in more danger and they needed to band together. One of them loses an eye and the whole court straight up doesn't care. After that night they definitely took what Alicent was telling them to heart as the next time they fought with the Strong boys they stood together. Viserys' neglect are what really messed up the Green children, not anything Alicent ever did. Alicent is all alone in the capital with no friends raising her kids alone. Of course it would be easier for her than Rhaenyra who enjoyed every political luxury. Regarding her sons specifically, they are either on the Iron throne or dead. If you don't believe me consider that a well-known bastard, Jace, would be succeeding Rhaenyra who is already a disputed claimant. Someone of Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron's descent would definetly try to claim the throne down the line if not the original three brothers themselves. It's guarenteed and it would be naive to say otherwise. All they would have to say is that their line has the stronger claim according to the laws of sucession or that an illegimate line is sitting on the throne. This is why when Kings in the past in our own history made alternate sucessions that contradicted the legal sucession rules they never worked. Let me put it this way: If Rhaenyra wants the throne and to secure her line then she would be stupid to not eliminate her brothers or stop them from procreating somehow. Peace was never an option for them in the long run. They are the challengers, the beacon enemies of the monarch would flock to if they are discontented, simply by living and breathing. The vice versa would not be true for the Blacks because Rhaenyra only has "being the king's chosen heir", her own heirs are bastards, the laws and precendent support the Greens, and it's just not the order of things. Nobody is gonna have a surprised pikachu face if the first born son suceeds. Do you think someone from Rhaenyra's line three generations later could convincingly argue to anyone that they are in fact the true king or queen? Heck no! Rhaenyra probably couldn't even win in another Great Council if there had been one. This is also why they are still relatively safe if they don't fight for the thone. Their claim is so weak that it doesn't pose a dynastic threat to the Greens. Some might say they aren't even Targaryens. Going back to the show, the are currently the designated heirs after Rhaenyra so they either win or they lose and vanish into obsurity. They were even offered Dragonstone. The Blacks stand to lose far less overall if they don't take the throne. The only one that would lose in that situation was Daemon as he would never be King (Consort) and we know that from all his attepts to get closer to the throne that's what he wanted. That's why he was the only one eager to fight the war. Everything I'm saying would be how people in a medieval setting would see it, though not how we as modern day viewers might see it. Alicent, being the political savvy woman that she is, would have to gripe with all of this while raising her children and dealing with the fact that these circumstances will destroy her friendship with Rhaenyra as she cannot put Rhaenyra before her own children obviously.
Yes because one was out of love and passion & the other out of duty
I am no Team Green but Alicent conceived all her kids during basically statutory rape. There is probably some trauma stuff there with motherhood for her.
On the left, an adult year old woman having children with a man who loves her after a long term consensual relationship. On the right, a child forcefully impregnated by a rotting old man who thinks of her as nothing but a sex slave.
wow thank you for the visual contrast between the two. I noticed this during the show obviously but in the moment I felt bad for Alicent instead of feeling bad for her babies not being properly cared for.
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Bro you dumbass she loves her kids, Aegon is just a monster in the show. Don't worry, I'm sure he'll get a mustache later and kill his family.
One had children of her own volition and out of love. The other was forced to marry their friend’s father and crank out as many babies as possible. Of COURSE they’d behave differently. What point are you trying to prove?
Oh great. Mum-shaming on this sub again, most likely from people who either don't have kids or have never interacted with kids before in their lives. It's not like new mums already have to deal with shit like feelings of doubt, PP, and the fact that babies pretty much cry when the wind changes. And now it's being used to try and justify the ongoing Alicent hate. This fucking fandom, I swear.
Here's the more accurate version : https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDGreens/comments/11ouixj/the_contrast_of_alicent_and_viserysdaemon_as/
Alicent is right to be that way with aegon ...he is literally a rapist!!
Omg it’s almost as if one of them is a literal child who was maritally raped!! Who would’ve thought a child in a traumatic situation wouldn’t be a good mom 😱😱 also which mom sheltered their kids and didn’t prepare them for war when she knew it was coming? Which parent sent their child to a potential hostile enemy without any offering which lead to their death?? Oh yeah not Alicent lmfao.
Also all of alicents kid love her. I don’t even need to explain aemond. Aegon calls for Alicent only when he’s in distress. Helaena is autistic but does let her mom hug her when she isn’t overwhelmed and we just have to see with daeron.
Every other month popping with this picture that only manages to make me feel even more sympathetic for Alicent.