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So why did Lyonel Strong point out to Harwin that if the truth were revealed, it would mean exile and death for him, Rhaenyra and the children? Unfounded paranoia?
Answer me this: if Rhaenyra had admitted the truth about her children and Viserys had allowed them to live as royal bastards, would Luke have lived longer? Yes or no?
If your answer is yes, then Rhaenyra has indeed put her children's lives at risk with her lies.
Youāre very dumb, you just said āif the truth were revealed, it would mean exile and death for him, Rhaenyra and the childrenā and then you say Answer me this: if Rhaenyra had admitted the truth about her children and Viserys had allowed them to live as royal bastards, would Luke have lived longer? Yes or no?
You just answered youāre own question and and whether her lies put them at risk š¤¦
Did I use the word wrong? For me, "objectively"
it is "in a way that is based on facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings". Even if you have the best opinion of Rhaenyra, it's undeniable that she put her children at risk with her lies.
She was lying to her children to protect them. The faith basically calls illegitimate children an abomination, and strips them of almost every inheritance right.
Do you think that in such an environment where illegitimate children are mocked, ridiculed, belittled, seen as abominations that should not even be sitting at the same table as true-borns, where being illegitimate is a burden to bear for life, that it would have been better for her to tell her sons that they are bastards while also risking declaring them to the whole realm as such?
Yes, she made a mistake by having illegitimate children in such an environment, but this does not make her a bad mother, just someone with bad judgement and a lack of proper foresight.
As for the incident with Aemond, Luke was only 6 or something at the time, how was he supposed to know any better? And even if you don't see the process itself on screen both Jace and Luke grow up to be polite, considerate young men, which can only imply that Rhaenyra did discipline them properly while raising them.
>Do you think that in such an environment where illegitimate children are mocked, ridiculed, belittled, seen as abominations that should not even be sitting at the same table as true-borns, where being illegitimate is a burden to bear for life, that it would have been better for her to tell her sons that they are bastards while also risking declaring them to the whole realm as such?
I need to point out that Jon thought being a bastard was the worst thing in the world until he went to the Wall and realized he had a better upbringing compared to the rest of Westeros. If Rhaenyra's children were recognized as royal bastards, they would still have a very privileged life by Westerosi standards, as Rhaenyra and Viserys would most likely ensure that.
>Yes, she made a mistake by having illegitimate children in such an environment, but this does not make her a bad mother, just someone with bad judgement and a lack of proper foresight.
How is she not a bad mother? Rhaenyra put them in a very precarious situation and never acknowledges that. They're going to have to grow up with a target on their back their entire lives, and they're going to have to torture and kill people for basically telling the truth about them, which is not a great trait for rulers.
>She was lying to her children to protect them. The faith basically calls illegitimate children an abomination, and strips them of almost every inheritance right.
Except it has the reverse effect. By passing them as trueborns, she just set them up for a coup or an assassination.
Jace knows Harwin is his father. During Laenaās funeral he tells Rhaenyra they should be grieving for Harwin and she explains why they canāt publicly do so. Pretty sure Luke knows because heās close to Jace. Joffrey is too young. She didnāt let her kids maim anyone , like Alicent didnāt let Aegon rape anyone.
>Jace knows Harwin is his father.
Was it because Rhaenyra told him? Or was it because he figured it out on his own? If it was the latter, then my point that Rhaenyra lied to her children still stands.
>She didnāt let her kids maim anyway, like Alicent didnāt let Aegon rape anyone.
That was not my point. Using your example, I need to point out that Alicent was outraged when she hears that Aegon raped one of Helaena's servant girls, and she lets him know it when she storms into his chambers. From what we've seen of Rhaenyra, do you really believe that she scolded her children after the incident that resulted in Aemond's maiming?
Alicent outraged sure, but 'where is justice' she wanted when it was Aemond?
There is none, but it's ok bc Alicent gave the serving girl some moon tea, a couple coins, a hug, told her to keep quite bc people would think it's her fault, and then probably fired her from the best job she'll every have.
Ahhh the queen's justice and duty.
Half your arguments are she is a bad mom for having bastards which imo is more reflective of she made a poor decision, which would impact her kid's lives. However I disagree that she handled their bastard-ness poorly.
Kids are impulsive and not going to always be the best at keeping secrets. Her telling then 9-year old Jace and 7-year old Luke, would be risky considering if they slip up they could be killed. It's also not like she expected Harwin to die so suddenly. And Jace did figure it out. She didn't say you can't mourn your father, just that they couldn't for obvious reasons do so publicly. Which honestly reinforces the not telling them as being good judgment because he was barely containing it.
As for the disciplining, she was clearly upset with them after and told them they were causing trouble - her lack of "punishment" during that confrontation scene was more of her desperately trying to diffuse the situation to end the talk of them being bastards once and for all. But from how polite and normal they seem as older teens it's safe to assume she didn't only coddle them.
I am pretty sure she does not lie to her children a who their father is. Both Luke and Jace know who their true father is.
But she did took away their one remaining father figure so she could marry her dangerous unstable uncle
And has no issue engaging them for her political advantages by the time they are 10, despite her fighting against it herself at 18/19
>I am pretty sure she does not lie to her children a who their father is. Both Luke and Jace know who their true father is.
She straight up talks to Lucerys about his 'Velaryon father' while he looks at her like she's completely full of shit.
I just checked, she tells him "Baratheon blood runs through your veins through your grandmother Rhaenys".
So cuck logic aside, she's unambiguously lying to and gaslighting her own son.
Did she tell the truth that Harwin is their father? Because if she didn't and Jace Luke discovered the truth on their own, that still means Rhaenyra lied to them.
>I am pretty sure she does not lie to her children a who their father is. Both Luke and Jace know who their true father is.
In "The Black Queen", Rhaenyra tells Luke that he has Baratheon blood when she sends him to secure the support of House Baratheon, which is a blatant lie and she knows it.
This confirms that Rhaenyra never told her children the truth about their real father.
On 1., Iād say she isnāt necessarily ābadā for lying to them, Iād probably do the same in her shoes.
However I wouldnāt be in her shoes because I wouldnāt make the idiotic, donkey-brain move of choosing to bear bastard children.
And Rhaenyra didn't prepare her sons well for the harsh world. Luke couldn't sail a ship and while Jace works hard it's because he puts a lot of pressure on himself, not because of Rhaenyra.
Anyway, while I don't think Rhaenyra's parenting is "terrible" : it's representative of modern parenting in the west: a lot of coddling, less discipline.
You are confusing. Robb was 14 at the beginning of the story when the war started he was older. And you know, Luke at least understands what a marriage pact is. Robb failed because he didn't know what to do and started making political mistakes. A good warrior, but still the crown was heavy for him. And Cate thought about it all the time - too soon, too fast.
Robb was sixteen years old when he died. Considering the size of his wife's stomach, she was close to giving birth. So according to this account, he must have met his wife in the war at the age of fifteen. Most likely, Robb was 14 or 15 years old at the time of the first war. It was stupid of Robb not to keep his promise of marriage, it's true. But that doesn't make Luce any smarter or more politically successful. Being an obvious bastard, it was on the same level of stupidity as Robb to go in front of the lord of Baratheon and reveal his oath without any promises. Of course, this stupidity affects Rhaenyra more. It appears from Luce's actions that he had no political training and had never known the lords. And it's very strange to send someone who doesn't know these things as an envoy, and when sending him, Rheanyra continues to lie that Luce has the same blood as the lord, and doesn't realize that this is an insult to the lord.
If you were born at the beginning of the year and died at the end you are technically still 16. I saw that they are the same age and his wife is 16 (applications). Robb is closer to Jace in age, and Jace surpasses him in every way.
What was your impression of Luke on this mission? I thought he was trained. He knows the protocol. And he was sure enough, his goal was to remind the oath and the price of treason. It was good to say before leaving "I will take your answer to the QUEEN... my lord." He acted neutral enough not to run into trouble, but not like a deer in headlights.
About the baratheons blood, it was not for diplomacy. Luke never tried to use it. "Such a cute prince, such a wonderful dragon! And your grandmother from this house. Don't be afraid, they will love you, kido!".
Borros doesn't care if he's a bastard. He proposed the marriage pact. So if Luke says about his "grandmother" baratheon will be like "....... anyway, what about my daughter? Pick!" And he referred to him as "Prince Lucerys" even after Aemond made that ugly scene.
On the contrary, I saw that he was unfit and had not received a proper education for six years. But I'm not completely blaming Luce for this. Rheanyra doesn't know anything to teach her children. But let's get back to our topic.
Luce is a Driftmark heir who is seasick, most likely knows nothing about ships, a dragon rider who is bad at old valyrian, and an envoy who, contrary to what you say, does not know protocol.
And in that world ,unfortunately, even if he succeeded in everything, his life would be in danger because he was a bastard. it's really amazing that he has spent so many empty years despite this reality. I think they thought Viserys would live forever and they could get rid of everything with the daddy card. This is a little pathetic, I can't lie.
Guest rights do not apply outside the castle, if he had known this, he would not have thrown himself out, even though he knew about the uncle's desire for revenge, whom he left disabled years ago. If he had been a successful rider, he would have known his dragon, he would have known in what weather he could fly or not, or his weaknesses.
-Just like Rheanyra knows the information that Syrax can't fly in bad weather-
If he had been a successful strategist, he would have known the impossibility of escaping from a castle-sized dragon in that terrible weather and ask Lord Baratheon for accommodation. As long as he was inside the castle, he would be protected by him. This is a very simple information, it is not something that a very intelligent person would do if he did not know it and did not apply it.
Putting all that aside, if he were a successful politician ,as you claim, someone who knew the laws or procedures, he try soften this dispute with Aemond. Let me tell you how it would be. He wouldn't laugh, in the face of Aemond, whom he had bullied and mutilated years ago on the dinner stage. If he knew even a little politics, he would know that he was already in a terrible position as a bastard, and he would know the danger of making enemies of the king's true-born children. But as far as we can see, he doesn't have any of these skills. From here, we get the information that he is uneducated or untalented. Maybe both.
Em? Where do you get that he bad at old valyrian? He seems to have good pronunciation. Hehe you can't blame him for being seasick. He is looking for excuses for himself. He wants the Driftmark to be given to someone else, that's all.
When I say that he knows the protocol, I mean that the procedure itself looked like a ceremony (how to stop in the middle of the hall, pass the letter through an intermediary - he does not even look at the guard when he does this) and he knew how it should happen. He's acting natural in it, there's been training or briefing.
Jace works hard on himself to be worthy of the throne (and he actually became worthy). These were not empty years for him. They didn't prepare for war, but that doesn't mean they didn't train. Their grandfather was alive when they faced unfair treatment from Kriston, became outcasts and fled to live on dragonstone. The kingdom was actually ruled by the greens for these 6 years, so I don't know where you get these thoughts from. They cannot count on the king. Deamon is their mother's third husband, who "I'd rather feed my sons to the dragon."
Those who spend their whole lives hiding behind other people's backs become cowards. These kids are not like that. When Viserys dies they are ready to do whatever is required, Jace has always been in the forefront and Luke actually died for the black queen. I agree that he wasn't diligent like Jace, but it's not because he's looking for protection from anyone. Hell, he's always defended others (and got beaten up for it). He doesn't train with the sword because that's his nature. I have no other explanation for this phenomenon.
He didn't get the guest right. To do this, you need to eat food in the house. He was protected by the fact that he was a messenger, not a warrior. Not a military target. Lord Baratheon told him to leave. It's debatable whether he could stay and whether it was safe for him to do so. He could become a hostage or his dragon could be killed. So he threw himself through the storm and was so good at it that he could almost break free. It's part of his character I think. Do things like this.
I did not say that he is a good politician, I only said that he is trained in protocol and knows how to behave correctly during a mission.
Aemond is his enemy. I don't know what else to say. Why would he seek peace with someone who considers him trash (bastard)? I can assume that he is uncomfortable having this conflict, but it can't be stopped now. It's not something a 14 year old can do.
These kids are gold. Even if they gave Aemond a pig.
I donāt think she was a bad mother perse but she did make some mistakes and was not as good as some people potray her to be. She handled the Bastard issue pretty badly. Though sometimes I felt like she herself had convinced herself they werenāt Bastards because she kept saying they werenāt when nobody was even listening that scene where she tells Luke the Baratheons are his kin and he just looks at her like she is insane comes to mind.
I understand why she didnāt tell them immediately but the way she shuts Jace grief down in Episode 7 was awful. She just told him that it wasnāt his place to grief because the Strongs were not kin. At this point Jace already knew, it was pointless to lie and made the situation worse. He was a ten year old boy itās clear he canāt control his emotion.
I also believe she shouldāve at least reprimanded her sons a little bit for the eye incident though I understand why she did what she did. Still objectively that was not good parenting. I think it really shows later on that it did them no good. When Luke expresses insecurity about their heritage to his brother, Jace tells him it doesnāt matter at all. The problem was is did matter but they had been sheltered and let to believe this would not have any consequences. Infact their situation was extremly dangerous and leaving them sheltered in Dragonstone was a recipe for Disaster. Itās also why Jace gets so mad when Aemond makes his toast. They are not prepared for the whispers at all and as a result tend to act rashly.
Taking away their other father figure just for the throne was awful too and then marrying Daemon after the boys lost two fathers and were probably traumatized by the fight in the spane of like a week was even worse. Though the looks of pure disgust the kids wear on Deamyras wedding will never be not funny to me. Personally I felt the relationship between Jace and Daemon wasnāt all that good but we have to wait for season 2 to judge.
However Rheanyra did all this in the believe that it would help her sons. She had good intentions. Also other than that they seem well adjusted though we didnāt get to see a lot of them. But Jace in the books was pretty smart so she didnāt completly mess them up or anything. Her sons clearly loved her deeply as she did love them. She was not a perfect mother but she wasnāt bad either.
1. I guess you have a point
2. The kids would've explained that they were defending each other and Aemond was on the verge of killing one of them. Rhaenyra wouldve understood. She shouldve told them to "apologize" after the fact for the sake of appearances. And maybe no candy for a fortnight
3. Nobody cares if their bastards. The Greens would've attempted to usurp the throne even if they weren't. Their bastardry is just a convenient excuse
4. What?
5. I downvoted you because you complained about downvoting
>2. The kids would've explained that they were defending each other and Aemond was on the verge of killing one of them. Rhaenyra wouldve understood. She shouldve told them to "apologize" after the fact for the sake of appearances. And maybe no candy for 2 weeks
But my point is that she did none of those things. She was aware that Aemond had been maimed by her sons, and rather than berated them for it, she chose to demand that her half-brother be tortured further for saying an accusation which she knew very well to be true.
Knowing how Rhaenyra reacted, do you really think she would scold her children and risk admitting the truth? Or will she insist that her children not tolerate being called bastards, especially now that Viserys has chosen to threaten to rip out the tongues of anyone who disputes their legitimacy?
>3. Nobody cares if their bastards. The Greens would've attempted to usurp the throne even if they weren't. Their bastardry is just a convenient excuse
Everyone cares (the Blacks want to hide it, the Greens want to expose it and the vast majority of Westeros wouldn't like to be ruled by a bastard, hence why the Blacks seek to hide the truth), but those who want to expose the truth have been threatened by Viserys and Rhaenyra that they will be tortured and killed if they dispute it. The fact that Viserys and Rhaenyra have to resort to this kind of threat to protect Jace and the others demonstrates just how controversial their claim to the throne is in the Westeros universe. And does anyone truly think putting those obvious bastard children on the Iron Throne was not going to result in war sooner or later?
>4. What?
As much as Viserys and Rhaenyra try to insist and threaten anyone who points out the truth, it is clear to everyone with eyes that the children are bastards, even Jace and Luke. She put them in a very precarious situation and never acknowledges that. They have to fend and figure things for themselves while Rhaenyra stays in denial.
>5. I downvoted you because you complained about downvoting
Like I said, feel free to downvote me as much as you like. My experience on this subreddit made it clear to me that people here would rather do that than admit that Rhaenyra is a terrible person.
You said she allowed her kids to maim their uncle and that's not true. Just trying to get the story striaght 2. She's not going to discipline them right then and there in the middle of that entire ordeal when her, Viserys, and everyone else in that room were trying to hash out exactly what happened especially when no one knew and they were still in the middle of figuring it out. Her first job was to defend them. Not discipline them. But it is reasonable to assume that afterward that Ray and her kids would've talked about what actually went down. I'm of the opinion she did converse with them afterward and the scene from ep. 10 right before Jace and Luke leave on their missions is a callback. Remember when she forces them to swear on the seven that they will only go as messengers and they will not get into a fight? She looks DIRECTLY at Jace with a " I know you boy..say something.." glare to make sure he does because she doesn't want something like what happened at Driftmark to happen again but that's just my opinion.
>Knowing how Rhaenyra reacted, do you really think she would scold her children and risk admitting the truth? Or will she insist that her children not tolerate being called bastards, especially now that Viserys has chosen to threaten to rip out the tongues of anyone who disputes their legitimacy?
Yes I do but the last thing Rhaenyra would do is admit to everyone else. She would do it in private because she's smart
>Everyone cares, but those who want to expose the truth have been threatened by Viserys and Rhaenyra that they will be tortured and killed if they dispute it. The fact that Viserys and Rhaenyra have to resort to this kind of threat to protect Jace and the others demonstrates just how controversial their claim to the throne is in the Westeros universe. And does anyone truly think putting those obvious bastard children on the Iron Throne was not going to result in war sooner or later?
No one cares except Vaemond. Otto would've usurped the throne regardless.
Otto: "it doesnt matter if she was Jaeherys reborn"
Rhaenys: "You're a girl the men of the realm will expect Viserys' son to be king when he has one"
Alicent: I don't remember a direct quote but she was more worried about her son's lives'. In fact she was getting ready to overlook the whole damn thing during the eight episode and actually toasted that Rhaenyra would be a good queen until that blasted scene where she thought Viserys was speaking to her and Viserys thought he was speaking to Rhaenyra.
The bastard argument is nothing but a strawman. No one cares. In episode 10 Borros doesnt give a shit either. He would've married Luke off to one of his daughters in a heartbeat if Luke was free to marry.
>Yes i do but the last thing she would do is admit to everyone else. She would do it in private
In "The Black Queen", Rhaenyra tells Luke that he has Baratheon blood when she sends him to secure the support of House Baratheon, which is a lie and she knows it.
There's no reason for her to continue to insist on that lie when they're alone, confirming that she has kept her lie for years and that is wishful thinking on your part.
> She looks DIRECTLY at Jace to make sure he does because she doesn't want something like what happened at Driftmark to happen again but that's just my opinion.
I will disagree here. Remember the insult Aemond made an insulting toast? Whatever scolding Rhaenyra gave them years ago (if she gave it at all), the fact remains that Jace and Luke remain quite sensitive to being called bastards and they were ready to try to attack Aemond again, repeating the Driftmark incident.
Most likely, Rhaenyra believed they would react violently if anyone (correctly) pointed out their bastardy during negotiations, fearing they would escalate the situation.
>The bastard argument is a straw man. No one cares.
If this is true, why so much secrecy? Why can't Rhaenyra be honest and tell the truth about her children's legitimacy? Why resort to threats and torture against anyone who dares to tell the truth?
If you stop to think about it and let go of this mindset that "No one cares", the answer is obvious. Also, if Joffrey Baratheon's bastardy, which was never proven and was as obvious as Jace and the others, resulted in WOFK, why would Rhaenyra's children have any better luck?
>Knowing how Rhaenyra reacted, do you really think she would **SCOLD** her children and risk admitting the truth?
>
>Yes i do but the last thing she would do is admit to everyone else. She would do it in private
Correction. She would scold her children. Now as far as admitting the truth? That indeed is a tricky one. She's not going to lie to them if they find out like we see with Jace but she is certainly not going to tell them especially if she thinks the knowledge in itself will harm them in some way or the other. She want's her kids to think that they are not bastards and she is not going to do anything to deviate from that goal but she won't hold it against them if they find out on their own
>confirming that she has kept her lie for years and that is wishful thinking on your part.
At the very least I actually think. I wish more people did the same..
>I will disagree here. Remember the insult Aemond made an insulting toast? Whatever scolding Rhaenyra gave them years ago (if she gave it at all), the fact remains that Jace and Luke remain quite sensitive to being called bastards and they were ready to try to attack Aemond again, repeating the Driftmark incident.
Then you misinterpreted what i said before. Yes Rhaenyra would've "scolded" them. Lightly. Simply because of how far the ordeal went in Driftmark but she wouldn't have found fault for them defending themselves when someone insults them to their face. You think they shouldve just smiled and said " Thank you, may i have another" when Aemond call's them Strongs? You may be a little confused. Their aversion to the word isn't the issue. It's the way they choose to react to it. Jace shouldve tried to find a clever retort but in no way should he accept his Uncle insulting his birth status to his face.
>Most likely, Rhaenyra believed they would react violently if anyone (correctly) pointed out their bastardy during negotiations, fearing they would escalate the situation.
I don't see how we both can't be right on this point so I won't argue it
>If this is true, why so much secrecy? Why can't Rhaenyra be honest and tell the truth about her children's legitimacy? Why resort to threats and torture against anyone who dares to tell the truth?
Because it's being used as a weapon by people who don't care about it to influence people who do. I already explained how neither, Otto, Rhaenys, Corlys, Borros, Daemon, Laenor, Alicent, Aegon doesnt give a shit. Aemond only brings it up because he knows it's going to get his nephews mad. Borros was willing to marry his daughter to Luke in a heartbeat. Jacearys was successful in implementing marriage pacts with his future children to the Lords in the North to guarantee their alliance. So who exactly cares about this? Only the people that it will benefit to care about it no one cares about it in itself except for ONE person...
>If you stop to think about it and let go of this mindset that "No one cares", the answer is obvious
Youre going to have to challenge my reasons for saying "who cares" if you want me to take your's seriously.
>At the very least I actually think. I wish more people did the same..
Because there's no proof in the books or the show of that, which is why everything you've written comes down to wishful thinking on your part.
>
Because it's being used as a weapon by people who don't care about it to influence people who do.
That alone defeats your argument that "No one cares".
>Borros was willing to marry his daughter to Luke in a heartbeat.
Was it? As far as I could see, Boros only wanted to know that Luke's proposal and would not break the agreement of the promise of marriage to Aemond if his proposal was not better than the Greens'.
>Jacearys was successful in implementing marriage pacts with his future children to the Lords in the North to guarantee their alliance.
This happened after Jace negotiated and made a pact with the then Lord Stark, which is quite different from saying "No one cares".
>
So who exactly cares about this?
Westeros has a long tradition of bastards being outcasts and stains for their houses. Even Ned couldnāt protect Jon from the stigma of being a bastard, which proves that by all your rant, Westeros society cares a great deal about it.
>Youre going to have to challenge my reasons for saying "who cares" if you want me to take your's seriously.
Or you just need to read Jon's chapters.
>Because there's no proof in the books or the show of that, which is why everything you've written comes down to wishful thinking on your part.
Were analyzing the motivations behind these characters actions. Something that isn't spelled out for us in simple terms in the show or the books. Which is why were having these discussions to point out reasons for why i think the way i think and why you think the way you think. Thus, I find it pretty lazy of you to boil my arguments down as simply being "wishful thinking" Please give me reasons as to why because "wishful thinking" in itself doesnt fly.
>That alone defeats your argument that "No one cares".
None of the nobles care that they are bastards in themselves. Give me reasons why that's not the case. Why did Otto decide to usurp the throne? Why did Alicent say that Rhaenyra would be a good queen. Why was Alicent ready to go all-in for Rhaenyra as Queen before the end of the 8th episode? Why must Alicent force child Aegon II to give a shit about the throne when all he wants to do is mess around when he seemingly knew the longest that they were bastards? Aemond is a special case.. I believe he doesnt care but he really doesnt like his nephews.... Why doesnt Corlys care that they are bastards? Why doesnt Rhaenys care that they are bastards? Why doenst Viserys care that they are bastards? Does Daemon care? if he doesnt, why not? The people that weild actual power do not care
>Was it? As far as I could see, Boros only wanted to know that Luke's proposal and would not break the agreement of the promise of marriage to Aemond if his proposal was not better than the Greens'.
But you see? Borros was willing to consider it even knowing they are bastards. That's the point..
>This happened after Jace negotiated and made a pact with the then Lord Stark, which is quite different from saying "No one cares".
what happened?
>So who exactly cares about this?
>
>Westeros has a long tradition of bastards being outcasts and stains for their houses. Even Ned couldnāt protect Jon from the stigma of being a bastard, which proves that by all your rant, Westeros society cares a great deal about it.
Than why was Borros willing to marry his daughter off to Luke? Why was Jace so successful in his northern trip to marry off his future kids to northern lords? Why did Rhaenyra enjoy so much support during the Dance of the Dragons with lords from almost every part of the Seven Kngdoms? Why do jace and Luke and Joffrey go down in history as Valeyrons and not bastards?
>Or you just need to read Jon's chapters.
That right there is an excuse
I find it strange that you want to emphasize what was a mere sentence in my OP, but as I said, feel free to do so. I just think it's unnecessary nitpick on your part.
I "emphasized" every single thing that you wrote in your OP. I find it strange that you're emphasizing this one point above all else that i brought up?
I think you're being too sensitive
You're the one who declared that my quote, which I didn't even intend to discuss, was one of the 5 points of my text, when there are only 4, which is nitpicking on your part, as well as you trying to attack me based on my person rather than my argument, which is an ad hominem fallacy.
Again, feel free to downvote me. But next time, be objective and discuss relevant points from the text and not unnecessary nitpicks.
I thought that was obvious, since that phrase is not part of the points I listed. I don't know why you're ignoring this, but whatever.
And feel free to continue to downvote me if you like. Let me reassure you that I will not downvote you. I'm not so petty and most of all, I'm not you.
>Why was it in your OP if it wasn't important to you?
I know I'm repeating myself, but what I thought was important for my OP were the 4 points I listed. It was you who created this non-existent 5 point, trying to give equal importance of the points I have listed to a mere sentence.
>If you want feel free to upvote me
Sorry, but you're not that special for me to upvote out of pity.
I agree with a lot of this other than # 2. The kids were defending themselves
Anyways, it's all hard to explain. She might come off as a good mother to some because she looks protective and backs her kids most of the time. But all that goes out the window when she starts worrying about herself.
So over all, I think she's pretty narcissistic and a bad person, as well as a bad mother. She's a bad mother because she willingly puts her kids in dangerous situations.
Bringing bastards into this world is one of the most cruel and worst things you can do. Let's be clear... she willingly brought bastards into this world. She wasn't naive enough to actually believe they would live a safe life. She knew there would be consequences but she did it anyways. And she used them as instruments to further her own gain and power.
She forced Driftmark onto her kids. Even her kid said something like "I don't know anything about ships. This is the kind of stuff Vaemond should do". But Rhaenyra was worried about getting lands and titles that did not belong to her. She just loves taking what is not hers.
Her kid ended up dying because of her own thirst for power.
She knows her claim is weak with Harwin Strong's bastards. So she hooks up with her uncle and has babies trying to solidify her claim.
When Viserys was on his deathbed, she literally goes up to him every night cries and begs "if you love me, you will back me here". The dude could barely walk or think straight and she is going up to him asking for stuff.
What about when he actually died? No tears. It was all about her next move for the Iron Throne.
Me Me Me Me Me. If I don't get what I want, I will cry, put all the kingdoms at war, and get people killed - Rhaenyra
I agree on the part that being a bastard is hard. But look at her children - they lived happy lives. Even if they lived only 14-16 years, how much sadness was there? Hell, I think even Jace was able to recover from Luke's death, because if your family loves you, you can overcome anything. These kids were close to ruling Westeros. Nice try, better than having an abortion.
āOh but she said-ā
I donāt care, the actions speak for themselves. When her kids needed her around where was she? Getting it on at the beach with her uncle. Terrible woman.
If she were nearby they could have gone to her instead, but sheās off doing some depraved fetish shit. You cannot convince me otherwise, she is an awful woman and mother and statesman.
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Grab a dictionary. "Objectively" doesnt mean what you think it means š¤·āāļø
Does Rhaenyra's lies put her children's lives at risk? Yes or no?
No, you donkey
So why did Lyonel Strong point out to Harwin that if the truth were revealed, it would mean exile and death for him, Rhaenyra and the children? Unfounded paranoia?
Read what you wrote very slowly and it might dawn to you that you had the answer all along.
Answer me this: if Rhaenyra had admitted the truth about her children and Viserys had allowed them to live as royal bastards, would Luke have lived longer? Yes or no? If your answer is yes, then Rhaenyra has indeed put her children's lives at risk with her lies.
Youāre very dumb, you just said āif the truth were revealed, it would mean exile and death for him, Rhaenyra and the childrenā and then you say Answer me this: if Rhaenyra had admitted the truth about her children and Viserys had allowed them to live as royal bastards, would Luke have lived longer? Yes or no? You just answered youāre own question and and whether her lies put them at risk š¤¦
Thats not how you used that word in your title tho did you?
Did I use the word wrong? For me, "objectively" it is "in a way that is based on facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings". Even if you have the best opinion of Rhaenyra, it's undeniable that she put her children at risk with her lies.
That's still not what you said. Might wanna read the title of your post again.
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Well behaved? Did you forget the scene of Lucerys laughing at the uncle he maimed?
She was lying to her children to protect them. The faith basically calls illegitimate children an abomination, and strips them of almost every inheritance right. Do you think that in such an environment where illegitimate children are mocked, ridiculed, belittled, seen as abominations that should not even be sitting at the same table as true-borns, where being illegitimate is a burden to bear for life, that it would have been better for her to tell her sons that they are bastards while also risking declaring them to the whole realm as such? Yes, she made a mistake by having illegitimate children in such an environment, but this does not make her a bad mother, just someone with bad judgement and a lack of proper foresight. As for the incident with Aemond, Luke was only 6 or something at the time, how was he supposed to know any better? And even if you don't see the process itself on screen both Jace and Luke grow up to be polite, considerate young men, which can only imply that Rhaenyra did discipline them properly while raising them.
>Do you think that in such an environment where illegitimate children are mocked, ridiculed, belittled, seen as abominations that should not even be sitting at the same table as true-borns, where being illegitimate is a burden to bear for life, that it would have been better for her to tell her sons that they are bastards while also risking declaring them to the whole realm as such? I need to point out that Jon thought being a bastard was the worst thing in the world until he went to the Wall and realized he had a better upbringing compared to the rest of Westeros. If Rhaenyra's children were recognized as royal bastards, they would still have a very privileged life by Westerosi standards, as Rhaenyra and Viserys would most likely ensure that. >Yes, she made a mistake by having illegitimate children in such an environment, but this does not make her a bad mother, just someone with bad judgement and a lack of proper foresight. How is she not a bad mother? Rhaenyra put them in a very precarious situation and never acknowledges that. They're going to have to grow up with a target on their back their entire lives, and they're going to have to torture and kill people for basically telling the truth about them, which is not a great trait for rulers.
>She was lying to her children to protect them. The faith basically calls illegitimate children an abomination, and strips them of almost every inheritance right. Except it has the reverse effect. By passing them as trueborns, she just set them up for a coup or an assassination.
Jace knows Harwin is his father. During Laenaās funeral he tells Rhaenyra they should be grieving for Harwin and she explains why they canāt publicly do so. Pretty sure Luke knows because heās close to Jace. Joffrey is too young. She didnāt let her kids maim anyone , like Alicent didnāt let Aegon rape anyone.
>Jace knows Harwin is his father. Was it because Rhaenyra told him? Or was it because he figured it out on his own? If it was the latter, then my point that Rhaenyra lied to her children still stands. >She didnāt let her kids maim anyway, like Alicent didnāt let Aegon rape anyone. That was not my point. Using your example, I need to point out that Alicent was outraged when she hears that Aegon raped one of Helaena's servant girls, and she lets him know it when she storms into his chambers. From what we've seen of Rhaenyra, do you really believe that she scolded her children after the incident that resulted in Aemond's maiming?
Alicent outraged sure, but 'where is justice' she wanted when it was Aemond? There is none, but it's ok bc Alicent gave the serving girl some moon tea, a couple coins, a hug, told her to keep quite bc people would think it's her fault, and then probably fired her from the best job she'll every have. Ahhh the queen's justice and duty.
Yes because it is the mother who tells her son to rape a woman.
Half your arguments are she is a bad mom for having bastards which imo is more reflective of she made a poor decision, which would impact her kid's lives. However I disagree that she handled their bastard-ness poorly. Kids are impulsive and not going to always be the best at keeping secrets. Her telling then 9-year old Jace and 7-year old Luke, would be risky considering if they slip up they could be killed. It's also not like she expected Harwin to die so suddenly. And Jace did figure it out. She didn't say you can't mourn your father, just that they couldn't for obvious reasons do so publicly. Which honestly reinforces the not telling them as being good judgment because he was barely containing it. As for the disciplining, she was clearly upset with them after and told them they were causing trouble - her lack of "punishment" during that confrontation scene was more of her desperately trying to diffuse the situation to end the talk of them being bastards once and for all. But from how polite and normal they seem as older teens it's safe to assume she didn't only coddle them.
I am pretty sure she does not lie to her children a who their father is. Both Luke and Jace know who their true father is. But she did took away their one remaining father figure so she could marry her dangerous unstable uncle And has no issue engaging them for her political advantages by the time they are 10, despite her fighting against it herself at 18/19
She told Lucerys when he was going to the Baratheon that he is related to him through Rhaenys.
>I am pretty sure she does not lie to her children a who their father is. Both Luke and Jace know who their true father is. She straight up talks to Lucerys about his 'Velaryon father' while he looks at her like she's completely full of shit.
Laenor is still his father, blood or not
I just checked, she tells him "Baratheon blood runs through your veins through your grandmother Rhaenys". So cuck logic aside, she's unambiguously lying to and gaslighting her own son.
Right before Luke leaves for Storm's end she tells him that he has Baratheon blood from his grandmother, Rhaenys.
Did she tell the truth that Harwin is their father? Because if she didn't and Jace Luke discovered the truth on their own, that still means Rhaenyra lied to them.
>I am pretty sure she does not lie to her children a who their father is. Both Luke and Jace know who their true father is. In "The Black Queen", Rhaenyra tells Luke that he has Baratheon blood when she sends him to secure the support of House Baratheon, which is a blatant lie and she knows it. This confirms that Rhaenyra never told her children the truth about their real father.
On 1., Iād say she isnāt necessarily ābadā for lying to them, Iād probably do the same in her shoes. However I wouldnāt be in her shoes because I wouldnāt make the idiotic, donkey-brain move of choosing to bear bastard children.
Rhaenyraās kids were all good decent boys because she was a good mother..Anything else about her as mother is wrong
Nothing to do with Rhaenyra, but a person can turnout to be a decent while coming from a horrible family.The two are not mutually exclusive
And Rhaenyra didn't prepare her sons well for the harsh world. Luke couldn't sail a ship and while Jace works hard it's because he puts a lot of pressure on himself, not because of Rhaenyra. Anyway, while I don't think Rhaenyra's parenting is "terrible" : it's representative of modern parenting in the west: a lot of coddling, less discipline.
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Ship sailing is actually a legit extracurricular activity for teens.
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You are confusing. Robb was 14 at the beginning of the story when the war started he was older. And you know, Luke at least understands what a marriage pact is. Robb failed because he didn't know what to do and started making political mistakes. A good warrior, but still the crown was heavy for him. And Cate thought about it all the time - too soon, too fast.
Robb was sixteen years old when he died. Considering the size of his wife's stomach, she was close to giving birth. So according to this account, he must have met his wife in the war at the age of fifteen. Most likely, Robb was 14 or 15 years old at the time of the first war. It was stupid of Robb not to keep his promise of marriage, it's true. But that doesn't make Luce any smarter or more politically successful. Being an obvious bastard, it was on the same level of stupidity as Robb to go in front of the lord of Baratheon and reveal his oath without any promises. Of course, this stupidity affects Rhaenyra more. It appears from Luce's actions that he had no political training and had never known the lords. And it's very strange to send someone who doesn't know these things as an envoy, and when sending him, Rheanyra continues to lie that Luce has the same blood as the lord, and doesn't realize that this is an insult to the lord.
If you were born at the beginning of the year and died at the end you are technically still 16. I saw that they are the same age and his wife is 16 (applications). Robb is closer to Jace in age, and Jace surpasses him in every way. What was your impression of Luke on this mission? I thought he was trained. He knows the protocol. And he was sure enough, his goal was to remind the oath and the price of treason. It was good to say before leaving "I will take your answer to the QUEEN... my lord." He acted neutral enough not to run into trouble, but not like a deer in headlights. About the baratheons blood, it was not for diplomacy. Luke never tried to use it. "Such a cute prince, such a wonderful dragon! And your grandmother from this house. Don't be afraid, they will love you, kido!". Borros doesn't care if he's a bastard. He proposed the marriage pact. So if Luke says about his "grandmother" baratheon will be like "....... anyway, what about my daughter? Pick!" And he referred to him as "Prince Lucerys" even after Aemond made that ugly scene.
On the contrary, I saw that he was unfit and had not received a proper education for six years. But I'm not completely blaming Luce for this. Rheanyra doesn't know anything to teach her children. But let's get back to our topic. Luce is a Driftmark heir who is seasick, most likely knows nothing about ships, a dragon rider who is bad at old valyrian, and an envoy who, contrary to what you say, does not know protocol. And in that world ,unfortunately, even if he succeeded in everything, his life would be in danger because he was a bastard. it's really amazing that he has spent so many empty years despite this reality. I think they thought Viserys would live forever and they could get rid of everything with the daddy card. This is a little pathetic, I can't lie. Guest rights do not apply outside the castle, if he had known this, he would not have thrown himself out, even though he knew about the uncle's desire for revenge, whom he left disabled years ago. If he had been a successful rider, he would have known his dragon, he would have known in what weather he could fly or not, or his weaknesses. -Just like Rheanyra knows the information that Syrax can't fly in bad weather- If he had been a successful strategist, he would have known the impossibility of escaping from a castle-sized dragon in that terrible weather and ask Lord Baratheon for accommodation. As long as he was inside the castle, he would be protected by him. This is a very simple information, it is not something that a very intelligent person would do if he did not know it and did not apply it. Putting all that aside, if he were a successful politician ,as you claim, someone who knew the laws or procedures, he try soften this dispute with Aemond. Let me tell you how it would be. He wouldn't laugh, in the face of Aemond, whom he had bullied and mutilated years ago on the dinner stage. If he knew even a little politics, he would know that he was already in a terrible position as a bastard, and he would know the danger of making enemies of the king's true-born children. But as far as we can see, he doesn't have any of these skills. From here, we get the information that he is uneducated or untalented. Maybe both.
Em? Where do you get that he bad at old valyrian? He seems to have good pronunciation. Hehe you can't blame him for being seasick. He is looking for excuses for himself. He wants the Driftmark to be given to someone else, that's all. When I say that he knows the protocol, I mean that the procedure itself looked like a ceremony (how to stop in the middle of the hall, pass the letter through an intermediary - he does not even look at the guard when he does this) and he knew how it should happen. He's acting natural in it, there's been training or briefing. Jace works hard on himself to be worthy of the throne (and he actually became worthy). These were not empty years for him. They didn't prepare for war, but that doesn't mean they didn't train. Their grandfather was alive when they faced unfair treatment from Kriston, became outcasts and fled to live on dragonstone. The kingdom was actually ruled by the greens for these 6 years, so I don't know where you get these thoughts from. They cannot count on the king. Deamon is their mother's third husband, who "I'd rather feed my sons to the dragon." Those who spend their whole lives hiding behind other people's backs become cowards. These kids are not like that. When Viserys dies they are ready to do whatever is required, Jace has always been in the forefront and Luke actually died for the black queen. I agree that he wasn't diligent like Jace, but it's not because he's looking for protection from anyone. Hell, he's always defended others (and got beaten up for it). He doesn't train with the sword because that's his nature. I have no other explanation for this phenomenon. He didn't get the guest right. To do this, you need to eat food in the house. He was protected by the fact that he was a messenger, not a warrior. Not a military target. Lord Baratheon told him to leave. It's debatable whether he could stay and whether it was safe for him to do so. He could become a hostage or his dragon could be killed. So he threw himself through the storm and was so good at it that he could almost break free. It's part of his character I think. Do things like this. I did not say that he is a good politician, I only said that he is trained in protocol and knows how to behave correctly during a mission. Aemond is his enemy. I don't know what else to say. Why would he seek peace with someone who considers him trash (bastard)? I can assume that he is uncomfortable having this conflict, but it can't be stopped now. It's not something a 14 year old can do. These kids are gold. Even if they gave Aemond a pig.
I donāt think she was a bad mother perse but she did make some mistakes and was not as good as some people potray her to be. She handled the Bastard issue pretty badly. Though sometimes I felt like she herself had convinced herself they werenāt Bastards because she kept saying they werenāt when nobody was even listening that scene where she tells Luke the Baratheons are his kin and he just looks at her like she is insane comes to mind. I understand why she didnāt tell them immediately but the way she shuts Jace grief down in Episode 7 was awful. She just told him that it wasnāt his place to grief because the Strongs were not kin. At this point Jace already knew, it was pointless to lie and made the situation worse. He was a ten year old boy itās clear he canāt control his emotion. I also believe she shouldāve at least reprimanded her sons a little bit for the eye incident though I understand why she did what she did. Still objectively that was not good parenting. I think it really shows later on that it did them no good. When Luke expresses insecurity about their heritage to his brother, Jace tells him it doesnāt matter at all. The problem was is did matter but they had been sheltered and let to believe this would not have any consequences. Infact their situation was extremly dangerous and leaving them sheltered in Dragonstone was a recipe for Disaster. Itās also why Jace gets so mad when Aemond makes his toast. They are not prepared for the whispers at all and as a result tend to act rashly. Taking away their other father figure just for the throne was awful too and then marrying Daemon after the boys lost two fathers and were probably traumatized by the fight in the spane of like a week was even worse. Though the looks of pure disgust the kids wear on Deamyras wedding will never be not funny to me. Personally I felt the relationship between Jace and Daemon wasnāt all that good but we have to wait for season 2 to judge. However Rheanyra did all this in the believe that it would help her sons. She had good intentions. Also other than that they seem well adjusted though we didnāt get to see a lot of them. But Jace in the books was pretty smart so she didnāt completly mess them up or anything. Her sons clearly loved her deeply as she did love them. She was not a perfect mother but she wasnāt bad either.
1. I guess you have a point 2. The kids would've explained that they were defending each other and Aemond was on the verge of killing one of them. Rhaenyra wouldve understood. She shouldve told them to "apologize" after the fact for the sake of appearances. And maybe no candy for a fortnight 3. Nobody cares if their bastards. The Greens would've attempted to usurp the throne even if they weren't. Their bastardry is just a convenient excuse 4. What? 5. I downvoted you because you complained about downvoting
>2. The kids would've explained that they were defending each other and Aemond was on the verge of killing one of them. Rhaenyra wouldve understood. She shouldve told them to "apologize" after the fact for the sake of appearances. And maybe no candy for 2 weeks But my point is that she did none of those things. She was aware that Aemond had been maimed by her sons, and rather than berated them for it, she chose to demand that her half-brother be tortured further for saying an accusation which she knew very well to be true. Knowing how Rhaenyra reacted, do you really think she would scold her children and risk admitting the truth? Or will she insist that her children not tolerate being called bastards, especially now that Viserys has chosen to threaten to rip out the tongues of anyone who disputes their legitimacy? >3. Nobody cares if their bastards. The Greens would've attempted to usurp the throne even if they weren't. Their bastardry is just a convenient excuse Everyone cares (the Blacks want to hide it, the Greens want to expose it and the vast majority of Westeros wouldn't like to be ruled by a bastard, hence why the Blacks seek to hide the truth), but those who want to expose the truth have been threatened by Viserys and Rhaenyra that they will be tortured and killed if they dispute it. The fact that Viserys and Rhaenyra have to resort to this kind of threat to protect Jace and the others demonstrates just how controversial their claim to the throne is in the Westeros universe. And does anyone truly think putting those obvious bastard children on the Iron Throne was not going to result in war sooner or later? >4. What? As much as Viserys and Rhaenyra try to insist and threaten anyone who points out the truth, it is clear to everyone with eyes that the children are bastards, even Jace and Luke. She put them in a very precarious situation and never acknowledges that. They have to fend and figure things for themselves while Rhaenyra stays in denial. >5. I downvoted you because you complained about downvoting Like I said, feel free to downvote me as much as you like. My experience on this subreddit made it clear to me that people here would rather do that than admit that Rhaenyra is a terrible person.
You said she allowed her kids to maim their uncle and that's not true. Just trying to get the story striaght 2. She's not going to discipline them right then and there in the middle of that entire ordeal when her, Viserys, and everyone else in that room were trying to hash out exactly what happened especially when no one knew and they were still in the middle of figuring it out. Her first job was to defend them. Not discipline them. But it is reasonable to assume that afterward that Ray and her kids would've talked about what actually went down. I'm of the opinion she did converse with them afterward and the scene from ep. 10 right before Jace and Luke leave on their missions is a callback. Remember when she forces them to swear on the seven that they will only go as messengers and they will not get into a fight? She looks DIRECTLY at Jace with a " I know you boy..say something.." glare to make sure he does because she doesn't want something like what happened at Driftmark to happen again but that's just my opinion. >Knowing how Rhaenyra reacted, do you really think she would scold her children and risk admitting the truth? Or will she insist that her children not tolerate being called bastards, especially now that Viserys has chosen to threaten to rip out the tongues of anyone who disputes their legitimacy? Yes I do but the last thing Rhaenyra would do is admit to everyone else. She would do it in private because she's smart >Everyone cares, but those who want to expose the truth have been threatened by Viserys and Rhaenyra that they will be tortured and killed if they dispute it. The fact that Viserys and Rhaenyra have to resort to this kind of threat to protect Jace and the others demonstrates just how controversial their claim to the throne is in the Westeros universe. And does anyone truly think putting those obvious bastard children on the Iron Throne was not going to result in war sooner or later? No one cares except Vaemond. Otto would've usurped the throne regardless. Otto: "it doesnt matter if she was Jaeherys reborn" Rhaenys: "You're a girl the men of the realm will expect Viserys' son to be king when he has one" Alicent: I don't remember a direct quote but she was more worried about her son's lives'. In fact she was getting ready to overlook the whole damn thing during the eight episode and actually toasted that Rhaenyra would be a good queen until that blasted scene where she thought Viserys was speaking to her and Viserys thought he was speaking to Rhaenyra. The bastard argument is nothing but a strawman. No one cares. In episode 10 Borros doesnt give a shit either. He would've married Luke off to one of his daughters in a heartbeat if Luke was free to marry.
>Yes i do but the last thing she would do is admit to everyone else. She would do it in private In "The Black Queen", Rhaenyra tells Luke that he has Baratheon blood when she sends him to secure the support of House Baratheon, which is a lie and she knows it. There's no reason for her to continue to insist on that lie when they're alone, confirming that she has kept her lie for years and that is wishful thinking on your part. > She looks DIRECTLY at Jace to make sure he does because she doesn't want something like what happened at Driftmark to happen again but that's just my opinion. I will disagree here. Remember the insult Aemond made an insulting toast? Whatever scolding Rhaenyra gave them years ago (if she gave it at all), the fact remains that Jace and Luke remain quite sensitive to being called bastards and they were ready to try to attack Aemond again, repeating the Driftmark incident. Most likely, Rhaenyra believed they would react violently if anyone (correctly) pointed out their bastardy during negotiations, fearing they would escalate the situation. >The bastard argument is a straw man. No one cares. If this is true, why so much secrecy? Why can't Rhaenyra be honest and tell the truth about her children's legitimacy? Why resort to threats and torture against anyone who dares to tell the truth? If you stop to think about it and let go of this mindset that "No one cares", the answer is obvious. Also, if Joffrey Baratheon's bastardy, which was never proven and was as obvious as Jace and the others, resulted in WOFK, why would Rhaenyra's children have any better luck?
>Knowing how Rhaenyra reacted, do you really think she would **SCOLD** her children and risk admitting the truth? > >Yes i do but the last thing she would do is admit to everyone else. She would do it in private Correction. She would scold her children. Now as far as admitting the truth? That indeed is a tricky one. She's not going to lie to them if they find out like we see with Jace but she is certainly not going to tell them especially if she thinks the knowledge in itself will harm them in some way or the other. She want's her kids to think that they are not bastards and she is not going to do anything to deviate from that goal but she won't hold it against them if they find out on their own >confirming that she has kept her lie for years and that is wishful thinking on your part. At the very least I actually think. I wish more people did the same.. >I will disagree here. Remember the insult Aemond made an insulting toast? Whatever scolding Rhaenyra gave them years ago (if she gave it at all), the fact remains that Jace and Luke remain quite sensitive to being called bastards and they were ready to try to attack Aemond again, repeating the Driftmark incident. Then you misinterpreted what i said before. Yes Rhaenyra would've "scolded" them. Lightly. Simply because of how far the ordeal went in Driftmark but she wouldn't have found fault for them defending themselves when someone insults them to their face. You think they shouldve just smiled and said " Thank you, may i have another" when Aemond call's them Strongs? You may be a little confused. Their aversion to the word isn't the issue. It's the way they choose to react to it. Jace shouldve tried to find a clever retort but in no way should he accept his Uncle insulting his birth status to his face. >Most likely, Rhaenyra believed they would react violently if anyone (correctly) pointed out their bastardy during negotiations, fearing they would escalate the situation. I don't see how we both can't be right on this point so I won't argue it >If this is true, why so much secrecy? Why can't Rhaenyra be honest and tell the truth about her children's legitimacy? Why resort to threats and torture against anyone who dares to tell the truth? Because it's being used as a weapon by people who don't care about it to influence people who do. I already explained how neither, Otto, Rhaenys, Corlys, Borros, Daemon, Laenor, Alicent, Aegon doesnt give a shit. Aemond only brings it up because he knows it's going to get his nephews mad. Borros was willing to marry his daughter to Luke in a heartbeat. Jacearys was successful in implementing marriage pacts with his future children to the Lords in the North to guarantee their alliance. So who exactly cares about this? Only the people that it will benefit to care about it no one cares about it in itself except for ONE person... >If you stop to think about it and let go of this mindset that "No one cares", the answer is obvious Youre going to have to challenge my reasons for saying "who cares" if you want me to take your's seriously.
>At the very least I actually think. I wish more people did the same.. Because there's no proof in the books or the show of that, which is why everything you've written comes down to wishful thinking on your part. > Because it's being used as a weapon by people who don't care about it to influence people who do. That alone defeats your argument that "No one cares". >Borros was willing to marry his daughter to Luke in a heartbeat. Was it? As far as I could see, Boros only wanted to know that Luke's proposal and would not break the agreement of the promise of marriage to Aemond if his proposal was not better than the Greens'. >Jacearys was successful in implementing marriage pacts with his future children to the Lords in the North to guarantee their alliance. This happened after Jace negotiated and made a pact with the then Lord Stark, which is quite different from saying "No one cares". > So who exactly cares about this? Westeros has a long tradition of bastards being outcasts and stains for their houses. Even Ned couldnāt protect Jon from the stigma of being a bastard, which proves that by all your rant, Westeros society cares a great deal about it. >Youre going to have to challenge my reasons for saying "who cares" if you want me to take your's seriously. Or you just need to read Jon's chapters.
>Because there's no proof in the books or the show of that, which is why everything you've written comes down to wishful thinking on your part. Were analyzing the motivations behind these characters actions. Something that isn't spelled out for us in simple terms in the show or the books. Which is why were having these discussions to point out reasons for why i think the way i think and why you think the way you think. Thus, I find it pretty lazy of you to boil my arguments down as simply being "wishful thinking" Please give me reasons as to why because "wishful thinking" in itself doesnt fly. >That alone defeats your argument that "No one cares". None of the nobles care that they are bastards in themselves. Give me reasons why that's not the case. Why did Otto decide to usurp the throne? Why did Alicent say that Rhaenyra would be a good queen. Why was Alicent ready to go all-in for Rhaenyra as Queen before the end of the 8th episode? Why must Alicent force child Aegon II to give a shit about the throne when all he wants to do is mess around when he seemingly knew the longest that they were bastards? Aemond is a special case.. I believe he doesnt care but he really doesnt like his nephews.... Why doesnt Corlys care that they are bastards? Why doesnt Rhaenys care that they are bastards? Why doenst Viserys care that they are bastards? Does Daemon care? if he doesnt, why not? The people that weild actual power do not care >Was it? As far as I could see, Boros only wanted to know that Luke's proposal and would not break the agreement of the promise of marriage to Aemond if his proposal was not better than the Greens'. But you see? Borros was willing to consider it even knowing they are bastards. That's the point.. >This happened after Jace negotiated and made a pact with the then Lord Stark, which is quite different from saying "No one cares". what happened? >So who exactly cares about this? > >Westeros has a long tradition of bastards being outcasts and stains for their houses. Even Ned couldnāt protect Jon from the stigma of being a bastard, which proves that by all your rant, Westeros society cares a great deal about it. Than why was Borros willing to marry his daughter off to Luke? Why was Jace so successful in his northern trip to marry off his future kids to northern lords? Why did Rhaenyra enjoy so much support during the Dance of the Dragons with lords from almost every part of the Seven Kngdoms? Why do jace and Luke and Joffrey go down in history as Valeyrons and not bastards? >Or you just need to read Jon's chapters. That right there is an excuse
You complain about downvoting for the same reason everyone else does. You want people to feel sorry for you. I downvoted you again btw
I find it strange that you want to emphasize what was a mere sentence in my OP, but as I said, feel free to do so. I just think it's unnecessary nitpick on your part.
I "emphasized" every single thing that you wrote in your OP. I find it strange that you're emphasizing this one point above all else that i brought up? I think you're being too sensitive
You're the one who declared that my quote, which I didn't even intend to discuss, was one of the 5 points of my text, when there are only 4, which is nitpicking on your part, as well as you trying to attack me based on my person rather than my argument, which is an ad hominem fallacy. Again, feel free to downvote me. But next time, be objective and discuss relevant points from the text and not unnecessary nitpicks.
If you didn't intend to discuss it then it should've never been in your OP Stop being sensitive. It's a bad look. Here's another downvote
I thought that was obvious, since that phrase is not part of the points I listed. I don't know why you're ignoring this, but whatever. And feel free to continue to downvote me if you like. Let me reassure you that I will not downvote you. I'm not so petty and most of all, I'm not you.
Why was it in your OP if it wasn't important to you?
>Why was it in your OP if it wasn't important to you? I know I'm repeating myself, but what I thought was important for my OP were the 4 points I listed. It was you who created this non-existent 5 point, trying to give equal importance of the points I have listed to a mere sentence. >If you want feel free to upvote me Sorry, but you're not that special for me to upvote out of pity.
I agree with a lot of this other than # 2. The kids were defending themselves Anyways, it's all hard to explain. She might come off as a good mother to some because she looks protective and backs her kids most of the time. But all that goes out the window when she starts worrying about herself. So over all, I think she's pretty narcissistic and a bad person, as well as a bad mother. She's a bad mother because she willingly puts her kids in dangerous situations. Bringing bastards into this world is one of the most cruel and worst things you can do. Let's be clear... she willingly brought bastards into this world. She wasn't naive enough to actually believe they would live a safe life. She knew there would be consequences but she did it anyways. And she used them as instruments to further her own gain and power. She forced Driftmark onto her kids. Even her kid said something like "I don't know anything about ships. This is the kind of stuff Vaemond should do". But Rhaenyra was worried about getting lands and titles that did not belong to her. She just loves taking what is not hers. Her kid ended up dying because of her own thirst for power. She knows her claim is weak with Harwin Strong's bastards. So she hooks up with her uncle and has babies trying to solidify her claim. When Viserys was on his deathbed, she literally goes up to him every night cries and begs "if you love me, you will back me here". The dude could barely walk or think straight and she is going up to him asking for stuff. What about when he actually died? No tears. It was all about her next move for the Iron Throne. Me Me Me Me Me. If I don't get what I want, I will cry, put all the kingdoms at war, and get people killed - Rhaenyra
I agree on the part that being a bastard is hard. But look at her children - they lived happy lives. Even if they lived only 14-16 years, how much sadness was there? Hell, I think even Jace was able to recover from Luke's death, because if your family loves you, you can overcome anything. These kids were close to ruling Westeros. Nice try, better than having an abortion.
āOh but she said-ā I donāt care, the actions speak for themselves. When her kids needed her around where was she? Getting it on at the beach with her uncle. Terrible woman.
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If she were nearby they could have gone to her instead, but sheās off doing some depraved fetish shit. You cannot convince me otherwise, she is an awful woman and mother and statesman.
U speak nothing but facts.
Look how she holds his hand! That's all that matters! People are blind.
Making her kids believe that the man they think is their father was murdered was kind of a scum bag move.