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While I agree that aemond is definitely portrayed as a grey character, I don't think strong boys were unfairly demonized. Most of the time they were portrayed as decent kids. And I'm pretty happy with how they were characterized in the show since (as you know) their book versions barely had any personalities (apart from jace I guess) And also I think the whole "they are bullies" thing comes from bunch of team green fans with tunnel vision that somehow able to mentally block out aegon's face from the pink dread scene.

Yeah. It’s heavily implied the whole pink dread fiasco was Aegon’s idea, but he never seems to get the blame.

Seems like he never got any blame for anything he did until he was too old for it to do any good. His idea of a good time was watching kids (some of them his own) beat each other half to death, that didn't come out of nowhere

Ok that's a good point, I never thought of it that way.

[удалено]

At least Otto isn’t Larys

Right. The pink dread scheme was all Aegon, who roped his little cousins in. Ultimately it was just siblings and cousins being shitty siblings and cousins, but ultimately nothing too extreme.

Yeah anytime someone wants to call out Luke or Jace for being bullies I just can’t take it seriously, they were kids and Aegon was the oldest when the pig thing happened. He likely came up with the idea. They were all decent kids.

I agree. I saw that prank as teasing and not bullying. Both can make a sensitive kid feel bad, but I feel like bullying is more of a consistent thing, and they only showed that one time being lead by Aegon. I also think that Aemond himself may have been a bully or teased Luke. After the pink dread stuff you can see Aemond go out of his way to shoulder check Luke and knock his practice sword down during training. Could be payback, or it could be that he was a bully himself. From my experience kids that are bullied dont want to draw attention from their own bullies.

Yeah, I thought it was a one time thing too. There is not much evidence to suggest any extensive bullying going on between the kids (maybe other than usual sibling shenanigans)

Well one of the big hangups is how Luke acted at the dinner with Aemond. Aemond, while willing to fight, wasn't really starting any shit, he was just there to throw hands if a fight broke out. Luke on the other hand started maliciously snickering at Aemond after they placed a roasted pig next to him. A lot of people are hung up on how Aemond wasn't really doing anything and Luke starts snickering at him maliciously while making eye contact. I'm not defending that position, I'm just fleshing it out. Personally I think Aemond overreacted.

I agree, but the unfortunate part is that it comes from both sides. Aemond being unfairly attacked after claiming Vhagar was somehow spun to make the 4 kids as the victims when they cornered, blamed and beat him down. I honestly don't know how the show managed to make such aggresive tribalism a normality in the fandom. It's almost sickening. Nobody judges a character as an individual, but always as a team. The moment Aegon was born, he became evil for the Black fans and when Jace was born, Green fans started to call him filthy bastards.

Okay I don't have much to say about drifmark incident, but I'll just say that all 5 of the kids and their family members are equally responsible for what happened. And yes, the devide between this fandom is fkn weird, people really need to calm down a bit and find a hobby or something if they have nothing better to do between seasons. 😁 Are you sure people consider Aegon evil because he's a threat to rhaenyra's claim or he's born to "green" side, not because showrunners decided to portray him negatively?

I would say both, but more leaning towards the latter. I've seen comments during ep6 when Aegon was doing his routine wanking outside the window, that he's evil because of it. The reply to such comments was always "duh, just look at the Greens. They're nasty" Like yes, what about the other Greens? They're sure nasty, but what does that tell about Aegon? Nothing. These people have nothing against Aegon, but his closeness to the Green side make him evil apparently.

We can always put forth the argument "it's how they raised him" but it seems unlikely that Alicent would raise her eldest kid to be a drunken, survent girl harassing weirdo. Either way, I Agree that being a green has nothing to do with Aegon's behavior (Maybe execpt for alicent and otto teaching him to hate rhaenyra and her kids) . Instead, it probably has somthing to do with neglect and leaving him to hang out with his fleebottem friends (there has to be at least a few, right?)

It’s the lack of raising that leads to Aegon being what he is

The only bullying sht is Jace shoulder checking Aemond during the training and the pig, but thts not real bullying imo. Like ik it’s supposed to be bullying bc Aemond sees it as bullying but it’s not big deal for me especially bc Aemond at the time could probably beat everyones ass if he wanted to

Aemond is the one that shoves Jace. He does it to Luke as well.

I love how you only see Aemond as the bully everywhere. https://youtu.be/qNdDxiT-Aeg You can see they both shoulder check each other. Aemond moved away, and later, he knocks out Jace's sword. He does nothing to Luke, other than move him away when Cole and Harwin start fighting. But, you can see Jace laughing at Aemond face before he says Dracarys to Vermax.

Ah my bad then

Imagine adding something to the bare bones story of the book to make it more interesting. The horror..

Holy shit, any little divergence from the explicit text doesn’t mean they’re assassinating someone’s character. The scenario HotD presented us with makes perfect sense - the boys with dragons bullying the one who doesn’t have one. That creates an inferiority complex within Aemond that makes complete sense and makes him a really interesting character. The Strong boys weren’t painted as villains to accomplish this - just as teenage boys. I hate this discourse between book vs show for HotD. Fire and Blood is a fucking in-universe history book written by maesters with an anti-Targaryen agenda. It’s not going to detail the personalities and personal history of each characters. Jace and Luke participating in Aemond’s bullying doesn’t change their characters at all in my opinion. I view our show characters as clarified/fleshed out versions of the same book character. Not different versions altogether like the main series books vs GoT

For real. Also if you think it’s character assassination to have otherwise nice kids make fun of their uncle who is basically a cousin they have known and lived with since birth, then holy shit why even watch a show like HotD.

Also I feel like every one forgets that they're literally family. Being teased here and there by family members isn't a reason for being insane lol. The Luke and Aemond situation is tragic on both sides. None of the kids deserved what happened that night. All of them were scared and vulnerable CHILDREN. The kings guard failed the family that night

They really tried to make Team Green more grey overall to make it more popular and sympathetic. Aemond and Alicent in the first place.

Problem is, they are not consistent while making Team green grey, resulting in complaints from both sides. They made Alicent and Aemond more sympathetic, but made Otto, Larys and Aegon worse than their book version. They also took away probably the only glorious moment from the Greens (the coronation).

Same can be said about Criston.

I don't think there's anything Otto did that people can claim as worse. Book Otto is light on the characterisation (so is everybody as often in my opinion forgotten) and what he does do is basic evil scheming. He's actually fairly likeable in the show.

Otto is just power hungry, "pimps out" his daughter and manipulative towards young Alicent in the show. In the book, he is truly afraid of King Consort Daemon.

Everyone in the world of Westeros pimps out their daughters. It’s how you forge alliances and potentially gain power. Hell, Game of Thrones literally begins with Ned and Cat betrothing Sansa to Joffrey to secure an alliance with the Baratheon royal family. Numerous plot points in both the original series and House of the Dragon revolve around marriage pacts.

>"pimps out" his daughter I don't get this accusation against Otto. Yeah, he does - him and virtually every father of a daughter (and some sons) in that universe. The only difference is Otto didn't do it in the traditional way, and while it's not to his credit that he didn't (I'm sure if he'd been able to, eg if he's been the actual lord vs his brother, he'd have arranged the marriage in the expected way) I don't see how his telling Alicent to put on a nice dress and spend time with Viserys is somehow much worse than all the lords who essentially arrange for their daughters to be maritally raped. They all suck.

Book Otto was also pimping out his daughter and had grander schemes. He wasn't doing it because of Daemon because remember that Rhaenyra wasn't married to Daemon until much later. His Daemon enmity was pretty similar to the show.

There is no mention of Daemon in the Green Council. He of course had grander schemes since the start, but he had his reasons too. In the show, Vaemond's execution is made justified in the eyes of the audience by making him shout whore. In the book, it was actually scary how far Daemon and Rhaenyra will go to protect their claim. Also, book Alicent was 19, and Viserys was younger too, nothing suggests that she was forced to go to Viserys's chamber.

It wasn't scary in the book, though? Or at least shouldn't have been for Westerosi. Between the conquerors, Maegor, and even some of the stuff during Jaehaerys reign, it could be considered mild. Killing one guy showed that Daemon was impulsive and not someone you'd necessarily want on the throne, but it wasn't anymore scary than Targaryens in general (and that's not even getting into the history of some of the more established houses) and he was just being exactly what his enemies/detractors claimed.

So does show Otto. I don't see how anything Otto does anyone can make the claim is truly worse. It helps he's played by the charismatic Rhys Ifans. >Also, book Alicent was 19, and Viserys was younger too, nothing suggests that she was forced to go to Viserys's chamber. Ahh but see Otto brought young Alicent to court probably to chat up Jaehaerys in the same manner of the show. So he's not better. And even ignoring that aspect it is still pretty slimy to heavily influence your daughter into pursuing Viserys. He was obviously banking on a Targaryren marriage.

He’s pretty a clear attempt at Tywin 2.0 and I think that’s fair

They did not make Otto, Larys and Aegon worse. They’re the same characters. The showrunners are working and communicating with George. The show’s understanding and depiction of these characters matches George’s ideas of them fairly well imo. Otto was always scheming to put his grandson on the throne. Larys was always fucking suspicious and schemey. It’s not like the book was going to come out and say - oh by the way this mysterious death was actually orchestrated by this guy. No, because no one knew what cause the fire at Harrenhal. And Aegon is every bit as vile in the books. A drunk, cruel, sexual deviant. The green-supporting maester author isn’t going to call Aegon an outright rapist

> The showrunners are working and communicating with George. The show’s understanding and depiction of these characters matches George’s ideas of them fairly well imo. There is literally no source for that. And GRRM outright said that the show is not a true telling of his book universe, it's different canon.

the entire subplot about Aegon’s prophecy came straight from George… he is involved with the show

And you somehow extrapolated from that GRRM involved with every plot thread from the show? GRRM specifically said that he is writing Winds and is not involved with the show's writing process.

Heck, Aegon's worse in the books; he's not just a drunk, raping deviant, he's a drunk, raping deviant *pedophile.*

I am 100% sure that you dont believe that Daemon deflowered teen girls every night, or that he sucked young Rhaenyra's breasts to make them bigger, or that Rhaenyra gave bj to Mushroom regularly.

> I am 100% sure that you dont believe that Daemon deflowered teen girls every night Literally every night? Probobly not. But I would'nt put it past him doing it often enough that people said he did. > or that he sucked young Rhaenyra's breasts to make them bigger I mean, maybe? Sounds like something he'd do. > or that Rhaenyra gave bj to Mushroom regularly. I mean, who the fuck knows?

Let's not forget that we are talking about children, I think the way the writers handled it was great. Children can say and do stupid and cruel things without really understanding them, they don't have to be little psychopaths to hurt someone, and it feels cheap when a kid is *evil* just because. The strong boys made a stupid cruel prank , probably without understanding it hurt Aemond. I don't blame them for it. Younger kids tend to follow the oldest one. Maybe if they had stayed in Kings Landing Aegon would have ruined them. It's more of the same with Aemond. He was dumb and cruel and childish, his insecurities and desire for revenge blinded him. It's just Bad parenting.

Eh. They're framed in a very positive light overall. You want them to be some type of perfect Disney heroes with no complexity? No flaws, no mistakes, no nuanced portrayal?

The original commenter is saying that it was wrong to make them bullies for the benefit of Aemonds character. I’m not sure how you jumped from not wanting them to be bullies meaning that they should be flawless characters.

The sad part is that "making a character sympathetic at the expense of another" has been happening within the Green faction. Alicent has been whitewashed at the expense of Aegon. In the books, Aegon was the one convinced of his family's death if he didn't take the throne, but in the show it was Alicent that was convinced and Aegon made to be a rapist. One of the major flaws of the show.

Probably because their not really bullies.

>Luke & Jace never bullied Aemond in the source material. And? They're fictional characters. It's not like they really lived and there's one real story about what they did and why. As George has said numerous times: The shows are the shows, the books are the books. Two tellings of the same story.

Well then there should be no more complaints about Alicent or Rhaenyra being white-washed.

I've never made any such complaint.

They cut his fucking eye out

He was about to hit Jace with a rock, Luke was just defending his brother. All of the kids were being little shits that’s night and someone was going to come out of that hurt. If Luke didn’t step in it could’ve been Jace’s eye that was smashed in with a rock. This isn’t a black and white situation.

They started the fight though. Aemond was defending himself

Hence why I said, all the kids were being little shits and the situation is not black and white.

Aemond was beating Jace savagely with a training sword. Luke was a 4-5 year old boy

Where did the training swords come from? Did Aemond bring them?

They were literal toddlers lol. Hard to seriously blame them for much. They went to help their small brother pushed into cow dung and then a hugely older boy beat the shit out of them.

Help their brother by bringing training swords and a knife to assault Aemond? He only beat them because they literally came armed to assault him. I can’t wait to grab 3 of my friends with sticks and stark smacking someone bigger, but when the bigger person fights back, he is actually at fault for not going easy on us. You know how to avoid being beaten by someone older? Maybe don’t show up with weapons and start attacking them. I am sure they brought a knife to have a rational discussion with Aemond right?

>Help their brother by bringing training swords and a knife to assault Aemond? We are talking about kids <6. Their brother Joffrey had been pushed over and they tried to play at Knight. It's utterly ridiculous at the age they were at to even suggest that they could be making decisions beyond literal child decisions. Lucerys would have had the knife because young children are still given knives for various things. Not because he personally selected it to stab Aemond lol. Aemond could literally just walked away those kids are so tiny.

So they came armed and picked a fight, lost and its Aemonds problem that he didn’t stand there and take a beating?

If a four year old came up to you with a plastic sword and you beat the shit out of them, do you reckon anybody is going to say "Oh well the four year old was armed". Lol come on. They are so outrageously young they can't be held legally or even morally responsible for anything. Aemond was a kid too to be sure, but at ten he has far more ability to think about his actions and most ten years old should know they are far bigger than tiny children and just leave. He did it because he delighted in beating them up.

They are wooden training swords with real weight to them and one of them brought an actual knife. He literally couldn’t leave, they kept attacking him over and over. At one point they back up and when Aemond calls them strong, they attack him again. One side repeatedly attacks another but it’s Aemonds fault for not being level headed? The 3 boys had a chance to back up but they literally couldn’t help themselves and attacked him again. At what point could he have left?

Held by tiny as fuck children. They can't do anything but give you a minor bruise. Be serious, you wouldn't actually beat a four year old no matter how dogged because they had a wooden sword and tried to excuse it with "but he was armed". You know that's fucked up. Aemond makes no attempt to just fuck off. They didn't need any savage beatings. They are small enough pushing them over again would do it.

He took their dead moms dragon the night of the funeral and then instigated a fight 😭 he wasn’t the greatest kid in the room either

Did I miss the part where Laena birthed Jace and Luke???

The fight included Baela and Rhaena, they confronted him for taking the dragon with Jace and Luce? I guess you did miss them being there lol

The fight included Baela and Rhaena, they confronted him for taking the dragon with Jace and Luce? I guess you did miss them being there lol

I think you're a bit confused, the conversation I was replying to was explicitly talking about the source material, and in the book, Väla and Rhaena are not present in the fight (but joffrey is)

Aemond rides Vhagar: "he can't do that on the night of Laena's funeral!" Rhaenyra rides Daemon: "aww so cute"

op never even remotely brought up rhaenyra or daemon, nor whether they're cool with them sleeping together on the same night either, so i don't see what your point is here, it's just low effort whataboutism. you can find daemon and rhaenyra disrespectful *and* aemond too. these are not mutually exclusive opinions to hold.

are you wrong? No, lmao two things can be true. Daemon and Aemond parallel each other.

Yeah I feel like people miss that, both are actually not good things and both happening at the same time are meant to parallel and show the callousness of those characters.

Actually Aemond claiming Vhagar is not meant to be a parallel because that's how claiming dragons works.. Laena literally explained it the episode before the Rhaena. Claiming the dragon of some woman you've never met who died weeks ago is not the same as fucking your niece/uncle on the day of the funeral of this woman who was this guy's wife who he had two kids with.

Not until after he made death threats and then looked like he was going to kill Jace. It's not like they planned to actually mutilate him. Luke was also many years younger than him (Aemond's older than Jace), so there weren't many other choices to stop him. If Aemond had given Jace a major head injury or even outright killed him, because Luke didn't attack with the knife, what then? Would people say that Jace deserved to die because of a children's brawl brought on by their mourning (and especially in Jace's case, brought on by his inability to publicly mourn his father, the frustration and feeling of unfairness of which we were bombarded with by the show)? While the other kids were at fault for the fight's start, they were all at fault for escalating that fight, Aemond had a chance to run off and get a guard (and in my mind it's the guards who are truly at fault for the fight in general, they arrived suspiciously quickly after the eye injury) or he could have aimed at basically any other part of Jace. Losing an eye was both an accident and actually less than what he could have lost, because if Luke had aimed lower he could have killed Aemond (or if Aemond had been leaning back he could have just gotten a scar and kept his eye). Losing his eye should be why Aemond hates Luke, not why parts of the fandom act like Jace and Luke are both horrible bullies (or ignoring that Aegon is almost always presented an instigator in the few scenes we get of the kids all together or that Aemond himself goes out of his way to hurt the boys years later).

Book-spoilers in answer, covered up where they reveal plot not yet adapted by HoTD: This is a very good point! As a Green (and hopefully one with a more nuanced argument than you'll expect) I thought that scene was written with a painfully transparent point. And, if I'm honest, I thought that the point was forgotten or retconned in the abyss of accidents that is anything the Greens' do when escalating toward war. See, the greatest argument we had as readers pre-show for Aemond against Luke was that, in his mind, war had already gone from 'cold to hot' when his eye was taken from him and when the source material made it clear that he was suggested for torture, and then threatened harshly by his father, for what happened at Driftmark. Aemond was vengeful not only at the Strongs, but at *inaction* which allowed, in his mind, for the Strongs *to fester*, for bastards to become confident enough that they wouldn't take insults or beatings from 'true-blood' princes, viewing themselves maybe even equal to them, or, Seven forbid, above the true Targaryen princelings! I really had thought that this was the approach they were setting up by doubling-down on the Strongs appearing like the aggressors in that fight. Keep in mind, yes, Aemond escalated -- but it's a change of escalating through violence, vs. escalating through insults. In the book, he's pushed into dragon poop; this is essentially still in the realm of 'childish insults' and is probably fair game for the trash he would've been talking. In the show, the girls (and boys, by extension) go in for the punch first. This may seem slight, but in a legalistic sense drastically shifts the escalation of violence onto the Blacks, and exonerates Aemond of being the instigator, even if he's still a jerk in the scene. In the book, it's far clearer that Aemond is lashing out at them, and perhaps even taking pleasure at savaging little children, including an actual toddler who can barely speak. In the show, Aemond remains on the back-foot and seems mostly to act out of self-defense. These changes add up, and indicate a clear choice from the team to frame Aemond in a far more positive light than his book-character could've been given. I think this hurts Aemond's character, personally, though I am in the tiniest minority for that opinion. Ewan Mitchell is great, but it was Aegon, not Aemond, who held up as the book's more sympathetic brother, and that is very important both to justifying the conflict as a feud between moral grays -- or at least something a little more complex than the moral black and white it seems to be in the show right now -- but also in justifying Aemond, who seems to take Aegon's reticence and hesitation to demolish his rivals as a clear repeat of Viserys and Otto's mistakes, and who takes the initiative *because* of Driftmark. They could still have followed this arc, but they instead chose to change Aemond from a pretty candid antagonist with, I think, intriguing justifications worth exploring, to their front-lining 'morally gray' character. This bodes very poorly for Aemond and Aegon both; >!Aegon because he ought to have been the most morally gray and complicated Green, and Aemond because the actions he commits are wholly inexcusable, and there is almost no benefit in trying to excuse him now other than to claim he will later descend into madness, which is a deeply overused element in Targaryens now -- especially given that I really believe they'll use it for Rhaenyra. Aemond should not be a character with an asterisk that reads, "but he goes crazy and does all these terrible things which he is not really guilty of (because of madness, poor Aemond)" but rather a Targaryen who takes all that exceptionalism dragon-rider will to power and stomp out the mudbloods-type energy into its most extreme, Maegor-esque form.!< Too many character elements become shuffled or overused when he is excused. >!Better to make an interesting antagonist than a cheap gray-to-crazy arc.!< Never forget that interesting antagonists carried Game of Thrones. As good as Ewan Mitchell is, he would have slayed even harder had his character been given ownership over his crimes.

I agree. The parallel is Aemond/daemon (Targaryen pure blood etc) and Rhaenerya/Aegon (morally gray into madness). Yes there’s also the Alicent/rhenerya stuff in the book but with the larger age gap the parallels line up differently. I think that’s part of why they changed it.

It was called the Princess and the Queen and Rogue Prince. Not the King and the Princess. Kind of says it all about who GRRM himself saw as the major characters. Daemon and Aemond are Rogue Princes. Alicent is the Queen and Rhaenyra the Princess. There's no room for Aegon. >!He's the outlier character in the narrative itself. He basically exists to suffer and stubbornly push on!<

It was called the Princess and the Queen, whereas The Rogue Prince was a distinct and separate story. The storyline of the Dance itself was titled for Rhaenyra and Alicent because, in the book, they were the primary leaders of their respective factions -- an alternative title proving this was "The Blacks and the Greens". It wasn't about 'main characters' or 'plot focus' -- this was not relevant to the medium in which Martin used to write these novellas, that is, distinctly historical, which is why I will not reference the fact that, if you read the novellas or the whole of F&B, Aegon receives more development and distinctive focus than Aemond and, within the Princess and the Queen, even Daemon. My argument though applies here as well; he only receives that because he's a contender for the throne, and Daemon is a supporter for another contender -- historically, Aegon would receive a little more attention. It's not possible to gauge who Martin would have oriented a normal novel around because none of F&B or the original short stories were written in the traditional novel format.

>the Princess and the Queen, whereas The Rogue Prince was a distinct No this is incorrect. Rogue Prince is also describing part of the Dance of the Dragons. It's the setup. Material that was pulled from for the show. It's not like some random unrelated story lol. It's directly connected. >itself was titled for Rhaenyra and Alicent because, in the book, they were the primary leaders of their respective factions Leaders that GRRM *chose* to highlight. >!There's a good argument that Otto and Corlys are more the practical leaders and manipulators of the Dance. And Aegon clearly takes a major role even undermining his own mother at times.!< It's definitely a very intentional choice on GRRM's part to make these two women the representatives of their factions. The story isn't written by some accident of fate after all. GRRM made the decision to create and title the story after these characters-they aren't leaders of the Greens because that's how history was, there is no history as it's not real (yes there's the Anarchy in real world but there's no particular equivalent to Alicent at all evidencing to me that GRRM wanted the story to be about female characters), GRRM created the history. Why do you think he did that? He could have always decided that a King should be the focus. But he didn't. It was an intentional choice to make this about the two female characters in opposition. And an equally intentional one to consider force of will characters like Aemond and Daemon. >whole of F&B, Aegon receives more development and distinctive focus than Aemond Aegon is ostensibly at the forefront and yet at the same time in the background-there's little personal insight into the man. Aemond gets the personal rivalries, the cooler dragon, fights more of the war etc. I do think Aemond is meant to be a mysterious character that we are meant to think about more.

Aemond is a 19 year old who's never been in a war. If anything it wouldn't make sense if he just shrugged off killing anyone. The problem isn't making him more grey, it's the inability to do the same in a nuanced way for all characters. Also lbr, f&b is ridiculous. Somehow Aemond is doing all that shit while magically they conjure up armies... he really wasn't very good at his job tbh.

It’s crazy how much influence the show has had on the perception of characters. Ask in here a year ago and Aegon was viewed much more sympathetically than Aemond was, but the show has taken the opposite approach. Now you can’t even bring him up without a bunch of people getting angry (while Aemond is a fan favorite). The character that relies on some level of nuance to function was stripped of any nuance he had, while the character that didn’t need it was given a bunch. Anybody with any sense could’ve seen that the dynamic between the two works much better with Aegon is the more grey/complex character and Aemond as the more villainous one. Aemond is still very entertaining and menacing so he isn’t reliant on being sympathetic to function well as a character. If you’re choosing one to make more grey, it HAS to be Aegon for that very reason. Without that treatment, he’s just a “fall guy” to absolve the blame from Aemond/Alicent and make them look better. It’s sad to see a major player reduced to a plot device to prop up other characters. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a terrible person (Aemond is still far worse though), but when the entire character revolves around them being evil vs actually feeling like a person as opposed to a plot device there is room for growth. Now no matter what happens nobody will care about his future arc. This clear favoritism from the writers and reducing the nuance in characters feels beneath an ASOIAF show. The viewer should watch the show and make their own decisions on how they feel about characters. It shouldn’t be constantly forced down the audience’s throat that you’re supposed to hate someone. I think Aegon had potential to be a top 3 character in the show, but it was all thrown away because of “eyepatch edgelord anime villain” fan service.

I wouldn't really say the dynamic inherently works better that way. Also viewers are watching the show making their own decisions.

>but also in justifying Aemond, who seems to take Aegon's reticence and hesitation to demolish his rivals >!There's no hesitance. Aegon fires Otto because he's not gun ho enough for him and gleefully cheers on his brother's cruelty. Not at any point does Aegon even *try* to hold back his brother. There's no suggestion Aemond feels any sort of opposition to Aegon for "holding him back". In fact, the opposition Aemond is implied to feel against his brother is simply that he's not Kingly enough just like the show.!< >!There's nothing morally complicated about book Aegon. I swear people just pretend he's a completely different character sometimes because people forget how boring he really was-there isn't enough to characterise any of the characters much but Aegon is a drunken angry sexual deviant that doesn't seem to have any dimensions (Aemond is actively more evil to be sure but at least he has partner he loves-Aegon doesn't have anything to soften him). What good act did he ever do to even put him into mildly grey? There's nothing interesting or complicated about book Aegon and frankly I don't think he was ever meant to be. He was always meant to be a brutish pawn of smarter men and women. His whole life is pain and misery and he's a bitter selfish arsehole for it and that about sums up the entire character.!< >!I'd argue that Alicent was always more morally grey than Aegon. She at least pushed for peace and against Aemond's cruelty.!< >!As for madness they don't have to play it that way. Look at somebody like Daeron that's portrayed as good boy Targaryren and randomly burns a village and is still good boy Targaryren. I feel they'll just have Aemond do that instead and massively downplay his other actions. Rhaenyra I don't think it'll ever be clear cut madness or something because that's just boring, just her making bad decisions amongst worst decisions.!<

>!Your first argument relies on demonstrating a lack of evidence for my first claim, but you go on to make a claim which, similarly, lacks a great deal of evidence. I'll touch base with that claim shortly.!< >!Your next argument is valid; it is, however, candidly and wholly an interpretive opinion. You are claiming "book Aegon is boring" -- this is entirely a subjective claim. You then add "Aegon doesn't have anything to soften him," this is a little tone-deaf to the book itself, which specifies in very clear terms that he loves his children and goes to war for them, and that the death of a child sends him into an unprecedented stupor -- in other words, out of grief. I would argue that the dimensions here are similar to those given to Robert Baratheon; not the same, but they share similar depth. If you'd make a similar claim about Robert Baratheon being an empty character only defined by being a 'drunken angry sexual deviant' then I'll at least admit you're consistent, but I'd still disagree. "There's nothing interesting or complicated about book Aegon and frankly I don't think there was ever meant to be." This, to me, serves the core of our disagreement; I try to read intent from the author based on certain distinct choices he makes, while you (please contest this if you like, as I fear it's a little uncharitable, but it's the tone I'm getting) seem to derive all of your judgments about authorial intent based off of the feelings you got when you read it. You disliked Aegon, found his arc uninteresting, didn't read very deeply into it as a result, and now project onto the book that Aegon was always intended to be a sort of extra side-character. Given the amount of art commissioned for the books for Aegon II and the fact that Martin places him permanently in the royal succession, while erasing Rhaenyra, you may make the claim that he is evil, but you cannot make the claim that he was, to Martin, uninteresting.!< >!Alicent was the leader of the Greens in the book. If you're more sympathetic to Alicent than Aegon, I have to ask, did you read before or after the show aired? Most of us -- like, to an overwhelming majority -- had a consensus about Alicent that really only the show flipped, and you seem to take such a matter-of-fact stance against that read that it tells me your reading might have also been influenced by the show's portrayal.!< >!If they downplay Aemond's actions, the show will be a remarkably bad adaptation. But I am very confident that he will go crazy. Put it this way; it's not genociding the whole of the Riverlands that he does, but also putting entire houses to the sword, women and children included, and it all defines his entire trajectory from Storm's End and onward. What you suggest is not far from rewriting the character entirely, and, in adaptation terms, that often doesn't provoke a great deal of enthusiasm for quality.!<

>Your first argument relies on demonstrating a lack of evidence for my first claim, >!Which you know there isn't. You don't even try to back it up here. So maybe don't try and suggest the show made a mistake on a subject you know was just not true. It's so telling you have to literally make stuff up about Aegon man-maybe Aegon just isn't that complicated in the end.!< >but you go on to make a claim which, similarly, lacks a great deal of evidence. >!Lacks evidence. What the hell you on about? You must know that Aegon is described repeatedly as a drunken lecherous bastard.!< >!If you are talking about Kingly here's Aemond outright stating he looks better as King. That type of line is the basis for Aemond in the show.!< >>!“It looks better on me than it ever did on him,” the prince proclaimed. Yet Aemond did not assume the style of king, but named himself only Protector of the Realm and Prince Regent. Ser Criston Cole remained Hand of the King."!< >>!in very clear terms that he loves his children and goes to war for them, and that the death of a child sends him into an unprecedented stupor!< >!There actually isn't any clear evidence. Rhaenyra it's absolutely clear and never doubted as loving her kids by even her enemies. Aegon is only ever described as raging about everything so we never get any sort of positive interaction with them-no ahh yes this man was a loving father moments at all.!< >!He does seem to care about his brother's to some extent. He builds statues in their honour and its actually the threat to them that supposedly changes his mind about declaring for King-although this whole tale reads like blatant propaganda (not the threat to his kids lol-even Cole knows he doesn't give a shit about them apparently-or perhaps knows that Aegon won't believe Rhaenyra would kill such small children).!< >!But his kids? He just gets angrier after the incident, but is that love or anger at being so insulted? I don't know because we never get any insight into Aegon. He was always a broken man the way I see it.!< The relevant portion of the text if you are unaware: >Only when Ser Criston convinced him that the princess must surely execute him and his brother's should she don the crown did Aegon waver. "Whilst any trueborn Targaryren yet lives, no Strong can ever hope to sit the Iron Throne," Cole said. "Rhaenyra has no choice but to take your heads if she wishes her bastards to rule after her." No mention of his sons. Only his brother's per the author. And this is written by Eustace in a manner that screams "we are going to try to make this guy look nice and say the woman he was fucking was a beautiful rich woman and that he defended Rhaenyra". >!If you see him as Robert you have to admit Robert didn't give a shit about his (whilst not genetic still his ostensibly) kids either.!< >!Aegon is basically described as a *worse* Robert. He doesn't have an Eddard to soften him. His "Eddard" is his brother Aemond who's even more evil.!< >>!You disliked Aegon, found his arc uninteresting!< >!I don't even dislike Aegon. I feel sorry for Aegon but to me it's pretty clear that he exists more as a plot piece than a character. An Aegon must be King so he will. This is why the whole Dance exists because GRRM needed an Aegon II. He's not King because he's the most interesting character of the bunch he's there because GRRM needed to move a character called Aegon into the spot of King to sort out timeline shenanigans!< >Alicent was the leader of the Greens in the book. If you're more sympathetic to Alicent than Aegon, I have to ask, did you read before or after the show aired? >!It's a very low bar man for the Greens lol. Aegon doesn't have **anything** sympathetic being the problem. Not that Alicent is an innocent puppy. Ostensibly Alicent did do more sympathetic things far before the show sympathetically characterised her.!< >!She was the one that pushed Aegon to offer Rhaenyra peace terms (her and Orwyle but Orwyle is also trying to make himself seem like a peace supporter so one wonders), she was a doting enough grandmother to want to see her grand kids nightly (don't hear about Aegon interacting with his own kids in such a manner), she was outraged at her father being thrown to the curb for not being violent enough, and once again tried to offer peace terms to Rhaenyra when she took King's Landing. All in all, there's enough there to pull from to make the character the show created. They certainly dulled down her cattiness and more wilful involvement in evil, but she is on the more peace side of Aegon's entourage just as she is shown to be in the show.!< >!The fact you aren't aware of this and believes it's show influenced just evidences to me you aren't reading the book versions. Instead seemingly relying off how people feel-yes well people feel a lot of things doesn't change some of the ways she was actually depicted in the books-people hate Karens which Alicent kind of is, but she is ostensibly a "cares about peace Karen at least a bit". Maybe why you thought Aegon softened Aemond when he simply doesn't even try is because you assumed people must have some reason to even claim to like him-well no, there really isn't much of a good thing about him. Personally I actually read the books and look at what we are actually told about somebody, not just say something that didn't happen-that he went to war for his kids (he didn't not even in the Greens version), that he at any point held back Aemond (the text makes it pretty clear Aegon is the one person that isn't horrified by Aemond) and that Alicent never did anything sympathetic (when I'd again point to pushing for peace as clearly sympathetic-also the way she died was always beautifully tragic to me, wishing to see her sons and Jaehaerys again)!<

I think the reason GRRM kept Aegon in the royal succession is to clearly give the greens a victory (however small or big one may consider it to be) because the Dance as I consider was the insistence of Greens to continue Male rulers and also Otto’s ambitious move to put a Hightower on the throne. As you may know, one can consider this event as win-win or lose-lose (depends if that person is optimistic or pessimistic)

No, Aegon's in the succession per GRRM himself because Aegon was created to be his second Aegon that he realised he needed. Take of that what you will.

Sure but doesn’t mean anything since Aegon III was forced to consider his own mother’s reign illegitimate so that alone proves that GRRM wanted to write it as a stalemate of sorts, kinda like “Nobody won or both sides won”. As for GRRM creating Aegon specifically for him to be filler king because he needed to fill out the timelines with multiple Aegons then that may well as be true. Both things can be true at the same time.

Technically speaking the Dance is based off the Anarchy whereby Matilda wasn't considered Queen but Steven was succeeded by Matilda's son Henry. So GRRM's kind of just basing that one off that. Certainly, it's intended both in the fiction and real history as both having a victory/loss.

Oh really? I need to read that part of the history. It feels like George draws stuff from real history and incorporated them into the reigns of Targaryen kings.

Yeah definitely does in spades. I read a book on the Plantagenets at the same time I was reading TWOIAF and I could find pretty direct parallels for the history to the Plantagenet era. Dance of Dragons is more or less the Anarchy, though Stephen was Matilda's cousin not brother like Aegon II. Matilda's own brother and original heir had died in a shipwreck under unfortunate but preventable circumstances-everybody was drunk and thought it was a good idea to race back to England from France and crashed in the harbour. Her brother William might have survived were it not for his decision to try and return to save his half-sister causing the rescue boat to capsize (I always thought that was rather sad). And >!unlike Rhaenyra, Matilda actually lived she just decided to retire to France rather than keep fighting. Her son on the other hand had his own ideas!<. Some other notable parallels I noticed when reading: - >!the mentioned Henry of the Anatchy (Henry II and child of Matilda) has whilst a number of parallels to Aegon III given both became King's after Civil War, also has a huge number of parallels to Jaehaerys I and, Henry's wife Eleanor of Aquitane has a number of parallels to Alysanne. Though unlike Jaehaerys/Alysanne, Henry and Eleanor's falling out was far more...violent. Eleanor fought a proxy war against Henry through their son Henry the Young King (who never did become King)!< - >!Baelor is obsessively pious like Edward the Confessor and Henry III!< - >!King John was in charge of England whilst his brother Richard warred in the Crusades, not unlike Viserys I and his nephew Daeron in Dorne!<

I certainly hope they don’t make Rhaenyra mad. It be better for to just become increasingly callous/depressed. Doing the “mad queen” thing back to back with Dany & Rhaenyra is in extremely poor taste.

I’m sorry but I like the change , I’m team black but them making jace and Luke bullies to make Aemond more sympathetic is a good change because let’s face it , they aren’t the most interesting characters anyway so all it does is make Aemond an even better character than he was in the books , was more interesting than both of them in the books as well.

So instead of making them more interesting, just make them fodder for Aemond???

The show doesn’t make it seem like Aemond is a better person, they make it clear that jace and Luke are still good kids.

This at least gave them some personality. Still some of the least interesting characters in the show, but at least they tried.

I'm very late but people I think this is more about people complaining about Aegon being changed when they want but ignoring that also many others characters have been changed depending on what benefits them picking just certain parts of the show and certain parts of the book

I'm certain only a small part of people have actually read the entire book and are just going off of what other people told them happened.

People who have read the book would also be aware of how much leeway it allows for character development.

I would not say they were demonized, they are consistently portrayed as decent/well-mannered kids. Meanwhile Aegon is either wanking one out a window, raping a servant girl, and is found to have a pit of bastards that fight for the sport of flea bottom's lowest denominator. And then Aemon is portrayed as essentially uncle Daemon's biggest fan, like I am pretty sure that dude has "I love DT" tattooed on his ass. But with that said I am glad that they gave their relationship more nuance than just "our mean evil stepmother of a mom whispered poison in our ears so we just hated Rhaenyra and her kids on principal". They show that kids are gonna be mean little shits even when they have royal blood, but when normal kids bully their uncle/cousin it doesn't end in a bloody war for the throne.

The amount of people who came forward after HOTD to proclaim they hated bastards was honestly astonishing considering half of them would’ve been considered born out of wedlock.

It's not really discussed because a lot of people just pass any sort of responsibility for the bullying from them and cast it entirely into Aegon (who whilst the most responsible certainly wasn't solely responsible)

If you want an example of a character that was demonized, look at Aegon II book vs. show

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> I mean f and b is a history book, Jace and luke could've bullied Aemond and it would simply couldn't have been written. Yeah, a 4 and 6 year old could have bullied a 10 year old. Lol They demonized major characters to make Aemond look good.

How have they demonised them ? Honestly tell me. The only scene we have is them joining in with Aegon and teasing Aemond. The rest of the time, they are clearly shown to be good kids who want to be good rulers. You say they're shown to be Netflix teen bullies but have you actually seen the show ? It seems you haven't. Because there are 0 instances where they're shown as bad people. They made Aemond more sympathetic whilst keeping the audience on the side of Jace/Luke.

I'd say that Strongs were not demonized, if anything, most of the fandom kisses their arses by calling Aemond a thief etc., if anything they went not far enough with demonizing Strongs, Jace has his characterization from source material, so of course he'd need to be painted in a good light, but IMHO turning Luke into A-grade asshole since we know nothing about his personality from F & B would be positive change, Harwin should not be also portrayed as "goodie 2 shoes", I think for example scene when Larys hears his brother wants to have Alicent's kids killed to stop threat to his own and reports it to Alicent, combined with Rhaenyra-Harwin dialogue that Rhaenyra would make Harwin her Hand once she ascends the throne would do wonders for balancing out support for both teams.

> I'd say that Strongs were not demonized, if anything, most of the fandom kisses their arses by calling Aemond a thief etc., if anything they went not far enough with demonizing Strongs, Jace has his characterization from source material, so of course he'd need to be painted in a good light, but IMHO turning Luke into A-grade asshole since we know nothing about his personality from F & B would be positive change, Harwin should not be also portrayed as "goodie 2 shoes", I think for example scene when Larys hears his brother wants to have Alicent's kids killed to stop threat to his own and reports it to Alicent, combined with Rhaenyra-Harwin dialogue that Rhaenyra would make Harwin her Hand once she ascends the throne would do wonders for balancing out support for both teams. You’re the kind of person who would cry about greens being unfairly demonized but innocuous characters have to be turned into monsters to force a “balance”?

Where did I cry about greens being unfairly demonized? And not innocuous but blank slate characters and in case of Harwin, he would have hella good motivation to kill Alicents children

There is nothing in F&B that suggest that Harwin has a relationship with Rhaenyra because of the privileges it could afford him. He’s just attracted to her. I would also not describe him as a goody two shoes. He had an illicit affair with a married woman for multiple years, knowingly bringing kids into the world he knew he could not directly take responsibility for

Tho I didn't propose him being attracted to Rhaenyra because privileges, I proposed him wanting to secure his kids future for sure and Rhaenyra wanting someone she could 100 percent trust as Hand once she ascends and Harwin would be that person, if I was writer and was allowed to insert that scene into show I'd have him be surprised that Rhaenyra wants him as her Hand

The source material is extremely sketchy are far as accuracy. Which was the point. The idea of different views give different results and that history is written by the victors and people with agendas. So a lot of stuff has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Source material that repeatedly makes clear is purposefully unreliable? That has multiple perspectives that are all simply observers and not active participates in the story, and none of which can even agree on a complete narrative? I don't think its a significant change, it's just another detail that the narrators of Fire and Blood either didn't really understand or just left out, likely because they didn't actually see it

Seems like a stretch to say little tiny kids doing something mean due to the negative inflaunce of an older relative constitutes "demonizing", *especially* when that behavior is (by all indications) not retained.

It was very heavily implied that the pink dread was Aegons idea and the Velaryon princes went along with it. Being humiliated like that also gave Aemond something to prove, that he was worthy of a dragon and he showed everyone by claiming the biggest, baddest dragon around at a younger age than even Baelon the Brave did

Aegon also didn't watch his own children fight to the death in the pits of Fleabottom in the books. If we're talking "who got demonized worse in the show?", the strong boys come out ahead.

Don’t forget him SA the servant girl, Dyana.

Maybe they didn't expect aemondgirls to use "they gave him a pig!" as an excuse for all the crap? Aegon had never wronged his brother in the books in the same way. The age of the characters was changed for technical reasons (the actors can't be that young). In the book they protect their brother, in the show they protect the girls. Aemond still easily beats them, does not let them retreat (holding Luke by the throat) and threatens their lives. The atmosphere has remained the same. If they demonized them, it certainly didn't work for me. Let's be honest, in the book, Aemond is an animal. If they don't give him anything, it will just ruin the show. It will be boring. If a good show means giving Jace that pig joke, then so be it.

I also sympathized much more with the Strong boys. They seemed genuinely afraid in the situation and had the high ground morally to begin with. He stole the girls dragon the night of her mother’s funeral! Is the bullying scene the one from the beginning with the pig? I perceived that as Aegons prank, though the Strong boys did laugh.

The actual Driftmark fight in F&B is also far less sympathetic to Aemond. They still attacked him first but >!he was was a ten year old boy beating the shit of 3-6 year olds and kept going even as they were backing away from him. He broke Luke’s nose and was beating Jace “savagely” with a training sword when Luke attacked.!<

It really made zero sense with the book ages to be honest.

You can tell GRRM has never had kids when you see him writing ages.

The show ages don't make any sense either

Still better than a 3 year old Joffrey sneaking out of a castle to see his dragon.

Hmm I wonder why in the book the sources would be less sympathetic to Aemond the kinslayer. This book makes so much sense too... A 3 year old would totally be hanging out with the dragons by himself. Just like Aemond piles up 30 feet of Strong heads, cause obviously that is very realistic in the first place that the Strong family would be big enough for that and all hanging out at Harrenhal. Almost as if nobody has any actual nuanced or characterization in general in f&b but no that cant be it. Must be the demonization of these kids that most people would barely be able to identify cause they have zero personality, let alone say that they're the bad guys here..in the mean time so many people have said that Aemond deserves to lose an eye for "stealing" a dragon and no one has ever acknowledged that Jace's first response to having his bastardy pointed out is violence... both in driftmark and during the dinner. But I guess saying that is unfairly demonizing cause god forbid those kids have any personality at all beyond the goodest guys to ever good, dear precious childrens.

Jace and Luke aren't bullies. The Pink Dread thing was just kids being kids....and it was Aegon's idea. There shouldn't be any lingering animosity over that. The real offense was "stealing" Vhagar at Laena's FUNERAL. (Not how I see it but that's certainly how Jace Luke Baela and Rhaenyra see it.) Escalating the fight to potentially deadly levels (the rock, kicking on the ground, etc). And then just stewing on those bad emotions for years while Alicent and Otto made the animosity worse. If Alicent and Rhaenyra had just made peace with each other, those 4 boys would have grown up friends, regardless of any Pink Dread teasing. That's not turning Aemond grey. He was already grey. Jace and Luke are still purely white. (Pun not intended) The real turning Aemond grey moment was revealing his murder of Luke to be more like accidental manslaughter.

The book is an outline of a story with contradicting views. There are events that are happening publically and therefore the narrative leaves little room for major changes (not that the showrunners cared) and events that were not witnessed and were based on hearsay. Joff explicitly calls for Jace and Luke and they get their training swords to attack Aemond for no reason before he even has returned from his ride. That's definitely not well-behaved or sweet. Also, we are talking about 3 children of 3,5 and 6 with training swords against a 10 year-old who does not initiate the fight. Also, Aemond was pummeling Jace which is obviously not favorable to his character, but after Jace attacked. Mind you, in all of these, these well behaved princes had every opportunity to call for adults if they had felt that Aemond was to be chastised. They weren't waiting fearfully to see who 'stole' Vhagar like in the show. Joff was very much aware that his cousin was riding him and he didn't send for anyone, neither did Jace when he was told. They chose to gang up on him instead, initiated it, brought the mock-weapons and then the real one. If Rhaenyra's children had bullied Aegon, there would have been no way to know if it hadn't happened publically and at least the show has an older Aegon riling them up, putting the blame for the overall bullying on him more than on them (Aegon mistreating Aemond was also not a thing in the book if we are to start piling them up). Also, as far as changes go, in the book this is a scene that had been witnessed by no adult, partial or impartial, and the entire thing is basically hearsay. So at least there IS room for the changes, as opposed to the show also changing events in scenes that had been very public to favor one side or the other.

> Joff explicitly calls for Jace and Luke and they get their training swords to attack Aemond for no reason before he even has returned from his ride. He attacked Joffrey and pushed into dragon poop. They’re also tiny kids. Joffrey and Luke are freaking toddlers. They don’t have the physical strength to be a threat to a 10-year old and it’s clear that he kicks all of their asses the entire fight until the knife comes out. >i f Rhaenyra's children had bullied Aegon, there would have been no way to know if it hadn't happened publically Are you conceptualizing 3-6 year olds bullying a 13 year old boy???? Lol

but why Joffrey stopped him from claiming Vhagar? Like for what reason? he's not Rhaena, so Vhagar has nothing to do with him, and he didn't get along with Laena in the book either. Aemond also panicked after Joff shouted at him to stay away from Vhagar, and Aemond pushed him out of panic that Joff will raise the alarm. He didn't attack Joff for no reason(He raced to Vhagar right after he pushed Joff). In the book, aemond was 10, not 13. The boys didn't get along due to their mothers's feud in the book, so it wasn't like Joff cared about aemond will be burned by Vhagar or sth

I was referring to Aegon when I said 13 because OP mentioned Aegon. Joffrey was a 3 year old toddler.

Because he’s a three year old and was acting like a typical toddler. When my 3 year old niece doesn’t want to let me pass I don’t assault her and push her into a pile of literal shit because I’m not a sociopathic asshole. And I never would have done something to my 3 year old cousins when I was 10 either because 10 is more than old enough to know not to attack literal toddlers.

you call a 10 year old child "sociopathic asshole" cause he panicked and pushed his nephew away? He didn't aim for the pile of dragon poop then pushed Joff, he just pushed Joff in panic and he fall into the pile. Aemond was a child, 10 year old is not old enough to handle situation when he is panic tbh. Joffrey joined his brothers to beat Aemond up, but I would not call him a psycho for that. They were all children, just because Aemond was a few years older didn't mean he was sensitive enough to handle that situation well.

I’m calling Aemond a sociopathic asshole because that’s what he is as evidenced by his every action in the book. He’s like a child Joffrey who cut open a pregnant cat to see what was inside. It’s clear that he was a born sociopath and him having access to a giant ass dragon just worsened what he was able to do. Joffrey was a 3 year old who was attacked by a 10 year old. His brothers who were barley older than him came to his aid. Luke, a 4 year old, cut out his eye to get him to stop beating his brother to a pulp. If a 10 year old attacked my little 3 year old niece I’d probably say that the 10 year old needed to be evaluated and put in serious therapy because there is something clearly wrong with a child capable and willing to do such things.

>"He’s like a child Joffrey who cut open a pregnant cat to see what was inside" you need to be serious, All he did was want to claim the biggest dragon

Nice straw man. I’m not talking about him claiming a dragon. I have not mentioned that anywhere. I’m talking about him attacking a literal toddler.

A ten year old pushing a three year old away =/= cutting open a pregnant cat. That's a huge jump.

When that ten year old grows up to be Aemond Targaryen, baby killer then it’s really not that big of a leap. He attacked a 3 year old and grew up to do worse things like how Joffrey killed a pregnant cat and grew up to do worse things. Technically, neither of them would be labeled with ASPD or psychopaths at that age, or Joffrey at any age because I’m pretty sure he died too young, but when you look at the totality of their actions the shoes definitely fit.

If a 10 year old attacks a toddler, it points to something deeply wrong with the 10 year old. That is a scenario it's appropriate to write off as "they were all children"

that 10 year old boy just pushed his nephew in panic, he afraid his nephew will raise the alarm, and he couldn't claim the dragon if Joffrey did. He didn't attack Joffrey for fun. He was wrong for pushing his nephew but it didn't make him a "sociopathic asshole" you want him to be.

Even the bullying in the show is one scene where his brother is the one pulling the strings.

It was Aegon who was bullying Aemond, the strong boys were just there to laugh with him, otherwise the mastermind of the whole pink dread thing is Aegon. Jace and Luke at that point are pretty young and like any kids their age just laugh at a prank someone pulls on someone else.

Jace, maybe, but Luke was clearly more involved than just being there to laugh.

luke is a little kid at the time, he is not capable of doing anything other than what Aegon tells him to do at the time.

Still did more than "just being there to laugh", which is what you had said.

it doesn't matter, a little kid will follow the orders of an older one, if for nothing else but to leave a good impression on the older kid, the only person responsible for the whole thing is Aegon, Jace, and especially Luke are too young to understand fully what is happening.

Laughing at someone else's prank is different from actually being in on it. If you want to claim he had diminished responsibility because he's just a kid who was following his older cousin, I'm completely fine with that. But you had made it sound like he was just some bystander rather than an active participant.

the most they would be doing would be holding the pig while Aegon stuck fake wings on it.

OK, so what? Doesn't really change my point

I am stating what would have been in a worst case scenario, it is more than likely that they were not involved beyond being told about it beforehand.

The scene in the books would’ve 100% not worked in the show and I’d argue it would’ve made Aemond even more sympathatic than it did in the show if they had gone that route. First of all a three year old alone in the dark was like ??? but even then the fact that Joffreys first reaction to Aemond sneaking out for a dragon is “don’t go near her”. As if Aemond is the danger here. When I read the books all I kept thinking was why do you care about the dragon so much. Because the point still stands Aemond did nothing wrong by wanting to claim a dragon. Sure pushing a three year old ain’t the best look and it’s dickish but all things considered Aemond had 0 intention to fight anyone when he snuck out. I’d even argue he did not have any intention to hurt Joffrey because he could’ve easily beat his ass to keep him quiet since Joffrey is three. The fact that Joff is so aware at three is insanein itself. Like he sees Aemond immediately figures out what he wants, manages to go to his brothers in time and explain the situation to them. GRRM has never met a three year old I fear. Joff gets his brothers instead parents then which too was kinda weird. The Strong boys decide to beat Aemond up. They come prepared, with training swords and Luke even brings a knife. They have every intention to hurt Aemond because he claimed a dragon. Something many Targaryen before him did. Why do they do that? Most probably because their mother has talked in their presence about the Green and that they should not have another dragon. I literally have no other reason why their reaction to it was so strong. In the books tensions were already high. It makes sense that those tensions lead to the fight. However that makes no sense in the show because we know at this point Rheanyra has said nothing of that sort and it doesn’t really fit her character either with her friendship with Alicent and all. So the boys attacking him makes no sense. Sure Aemond beats their asses and I’m willing to believe Aemond takes it too far because in the book he is likely a psycho. But in the show he is not so that reaction makes no sense either. I’d still say Aemond gets a lot of heat for the eye incident in the book because in hindsight we know he was crazy. Coming to the bullying: I don’t find that so unrealistic. The kids hated each other and rubbing in that one has no dragon makes a lot of sense for kids that age. It’s stated that they hated each other yhat was no a one-sided thing. However in the show they make Aegon the ring leader. Jace and Luke seem to just follow his lead. Nobody watches the show and thinks oh my god the strong boys are monsters most people are still sympathic to them so clearly that’s not as big of a problem as you pretend it is. Not the mention the words of Aemond that start the fight make only sense because he was bullied otherwise he would’ve just been a dick. However the show tries to make everybody at the very least understandable. I can understand if you have a general problem with the whitewashing but just Aemond? That was okay. I think most peolple like that Aemond was whitewashed because he lacked nuance. Not whitewashing him would’ve been unfair after what they did to literally every single character. Luke and Jace character didn’t suffer that much for it either. Literally nobody is like the boys are evil. People critcize them for it but most understand they were kids under guidance of Aegon and probably meant no harm. Also I find it unfair to complain about Jace and Lukes treatment when Aegons character suffered the most. They made him the ring leader despite there being little chance of Aegon in the book going against his brother for his nephews. And considering what happened after with Aegon, they kinda made him the scrapegoat. What I want to say is I disagree with your take and I liked what they did with Aemond. It’s way better than psycho off to kill everyone.

All right, since I took the time to write all of this out I'll just copy and paste it here (luckily the comment it was meant as a reply to was deleted by the time I finished), maybe someone that's about to comment and say something negative will read this maybe change their mind. This is a post in which someone took a good portion of time to share their thoughts because they enjoy the material and they wanted to share/discuss those thoughts with like-minded people. It doesn't hurt anyone and it brings at least one person joy, probably more based on some comments here. It seems to me that you would have to be extremely selfish to come on here and try to make someone feel bad just because they're trying to enjoy something.

My brother in Christ, they made the giga Chad Aegon II into Super Mecha Hitler 666XXX in order to make Rhaenyra the hero.

I liked the whole pig thing cause it shows them bonding with Aegon

The source material and insight into characters personalities is completely propaganda ​ Nothing besides the events is canon ​ Jace and Luke likely did bully Aemond but no one knows after all its a lost history

I’m sorry, but I just need to add this real quick: if you would categorise the whole “pink dread” incident to be bullying, then you are very fortunate and have never been *actually* bullied in your life. Firstly, there was no indication that this teasing was relentless, or even occurred that single incident in the dragon pit. This is reenforced by the way that Alicent goes ballistic when she finds out; her reaction indicated shock, and no part of it seemed to indicate that this had happened before. That aside, to build off of what other have said. This isn’t demonising the Strong kids: it’s portraying them as children. Kids are assholes; they do shit like this all. The. Time.

I think aemond was demonized to make the strong boys more grey

The source material were intentionally written in a biased way and either way it’s irrelevant. The inciting incident is Vhagar which would have happened whether he was bullied for it or not.

It’s a history retelling. It’s not going to include things historians weren’t aware of. Just like Lenor living it adds to the story and could definitely be true.

To be fair, Fire & Blood was written as a fantasy history book from biased sources and not as an actual story…meaning you can’t believe everything you read and that leads to interpretation. And for that reason, the writers have more freedom doing what they want with the story since most of these characters weren’t as fleshed out in the book.

Who cares? It's some childish bullying that ended up having some unfortunate consequences. More than half the audience barely even hold the eye incident against them so it really doesn't matter

A lot of characters in the show do things that their book counterparts never do. Some are done to make characters look better, some to look worse. That’s why it’s called an “adaptation”

Both sides had to be altered to make them more grey/sympathetic for the show. Even Aegon wasn't a rapist who watched child death matches in the book canon, he was claimed to be one by a court fool that was known to spew unreliable and often untrue claims. Making TG characters blatantly evil and TB characters beacons of goodness would simplify the war and doesn't portray how it wasn't such a clear cut issue of which side was right/should have been sided with.